I dug through my files & found a real MSDS for Zestron's Vigon A200. It is a "water-based blend of alkoxypropanols and amine-compounds." Under Hazardous ingredients, only 1 item is listed: 1-Amino-2-methyl-propanol at 1 to 5% (I presume this is by weight). There is no OSHA PEL for this compound. Its pH is listed as 10.4 to 11.4 at 10 g/l For eye and skin contact, they list it as a mild irritant. If anyone would like a real copy, I could figure out how to email it. Kathie Lambert SMT Process Engineer Northrop Grumman Baltimore, MD 410-765-9746 -----Original Message----- From: b_ellis [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 4:22 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [TN] Cleaning Solvent for Military Product It would seem that there is either mis- or dis-information on the go. Firstly, I reproach Zestron for an uninformative website. Most companies put technical details and MSDS on their site. OK, here goes: if Vigon were just an alcohol and water, why does the solution have a pH exceeding 11? There is no way this could happen. I have not seen a US MSDS but if it does not mention that it contains an amine, then either the European product is different from the US one (this is unlikely with an identical designation) or it is sadly lacking in important information. Just dip a pH indicator paper into the solution and then believe me! All saponifiers contain an alkaline product, most frequently an organic amine. This is no exception, but I forget which one is used in Vigon. It may be a derivative of one of the propylene amines. It may be that the MSDS uses a synonym that disguises tha amine group with something containing nitrogen (analogue to ammonia = nitrogen trihydride): that I cannot say. In any case, the odour of the hot solution gives the amine away to anyone who has experience of using them. Commercial defluxing saponifiers also contain solvents, because not all the flux residues are saponifiable and solvents are a requirement to ensure maximal cleaning. They are usually either heavy alcohols or diglycol ethers or a combination of both. Therefore it is normal that the MSDS should mention them. Still don't believe me? OK. Look up the Handbook of Solvents, edited by George Wypych, Chemtec Publishing (2001), p. 899, Section 14.8.2.1.4, entitled Water-based cleaning agents based on MPC technology. This section contains the following sentence: "Alkaline pH, that is essential for the saponification process, can be realized through biochemical buffer systems, predominately aminoalkanoles." And that was not written by Brian Ellis but by Martin Hanek of Dr O.K. Wack Chemie and Andreas Mühlbauer of the Zestron Corporation. Straight from the horse's mouth, n'est ce pas? Or, rather, nicht war? Incidentally, the terminology in this sentence is questionable: there is nothing bio- about the buffering. Worker safety: it is essential that operators wear full chemical protection when handling either the concentrate or the working solution. An untreated splash of the concentrate, or even the solution, in the eyes could lead to rapid blindness. At the best, even if treated immediately, it would be screamingly painful. It should never be used or stored without a functional eyewash basin in the immediate vicinity. The skin is also sensitive and splashes should be washed immediately in copious rinses (if I clean one circuit by unprotected hand in the solution with a brush, the skin desquamates from that brief exposure - voice of experience). Vapours: all amines are toxic to inhale. I don't know the OEL for this particular one, but MEA, the most popular amine, is usually in the 3 - 10 ppm range, in most countries. If you can smell it, the concentration is probably already too high. For example, in the US, the PEL for MEA is 3 ppm and the odour threshold is 2.6 ppm. Although I don't have figures, there is no reason to believe that other amines are that much more benign. Also, if ingested, it would not improve the health of the operator. Large quantities of lemon juice (or Coca Cola), followed by a suspension of active carbon in water, would be the best treatement if the patient is conscious. Do NOT provoke vomiting. Call a doctor immediately. If the patient is unconscious, keep airways free, monitor his state and if necessary administer oxygen or mouth-to-mouth respiration. Likely doses would not cause cardiac depression in normal patients but, if strictly necessary, CPR could be administered until medical help arrives. Environment: 1) Heavy metals: By definition, the fluxes will remove heavy metal oxides from the solder and components to form heavy metal salts. These will be removed in the Vigon solution. This solution, and the filter cartridges, are therefore hazardous waste and must never be disposed of by normal channels without prior recovery of the heavy metals. As the solution is used for long periods, because of their unique process, the metal concentration may rise to such levels that the solution dragged out may contain enough to contaminate the first wash water, depending on the cleaning machine design. It is therefore essential to check that this water, too, is acceptable for disposal according to the local regulations 2) pH: Most water companies accept waste water with a pH between 6 and 8.5 or 9 (check your local regulations). You are required to ensure that anything you send to waste is within tolerance. The solution most certainly isn't. If your waste water is consistently alkaline, some types of sewage pipes could be damaged, causing leaks that would be health hazard for the local population. 3) Biodegradability: everything organic is biodegradable, given enough time and the right conditions. Ideally, we want biodegradation to be as rapid as possible. Given enough oxygen, there is no reason to believe that Vigon A-200 would not aerobically degrade rapidly, which is good. However, is there enough oxygen? Many treatment plants for either industrial or publicly owned run at the limit of their oxygenation capabilities. If it is insufficient, suddenly adding large quantities of Vigon solution with a relatively high concentration of organic matter with C-3 or higher molecules may overload the capabilities of the plant. Check with your effluent/hazardous waste disopsal chain. 4) VOC: Vigon is a volatile organic compound: check with your local authorities whether you require a scrubber in your ventilation system before discharge to the air. I'm sorry to be a prophet of doom but, from the info given in posts here, it would seem that some users may have been ill-informed. I'm therefore putting the church back where it belongs, in the middle of the village. I put into service the first Vigon A-200 system in Switzerland. I was very impressed by its performance, better than other saponifiers I tried. It's damn good, in fact. However, I was unimpressed by the fact that the importer had not complied with Swiss labelling requirements nor given my client any H&S advice. However, at the time, it was a new product and I assumed that the appropriate compliance would follow. With this experience, I do know what I'm talking about, so please give me a little credit and, if you use the product, make sure you use it well and safely. You can only be satisfied if you wish to go the saponification route. Best regards, Brian PS PLEASE spell my name correctly: flattery will get you nowhere :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8e To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-509-9700 ext.5315 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8e To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-509-9700 ext.5315 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------