Kathie Thanks for this confirmation: even in the USA it IS a saponifier ! I would say their lab researchers have never had a splash in the eye if they think that pH 11 = MILD irritant. It could render the cornea opaque. :-( If you e-mail it to me, I'll put it on a web site so that anyone could download it. If it's hard copy, you can scan it with Acrobat into a PDF format. Best regards, Brian "Lambert, Katherine A." wrote: > > I dug through my files & found a real MSDS for Zestron's Vigon A200. > > It is a "water-based blend of alkoxypropanols and amine-compounds." > > Under Hazardous ingredients, only 1 item is listed: > 1-Amino-2-methyl-propanol at 1 to 5% (I presume this is by weight). There > is no OSHA PEL for this compound. > > Its pH is listed as 10.4 to 11.4 at 10 g/l > > For eye and skin contact, they list it as a mild irritant. > > If anyone would like a real copy, I could figure out how to email it. > > Kathie Lambert > SMT Process Engineer > Northrop Grumman > Baltimore, MD > 410-765-9746 > > -----Original Message----- > From: b_ellis [mailto:[log in to unmask]] > Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 4:22 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: [TN] Cleaning Solvent for Military Product > > It would seem that there is either mis- or dis-information on the go. > Firstly, I reproach Zestron for an uninformative website. Most companies > put technical details and MSDS on their site. > > OK, here goes: if Vigon were just an alcohol and water, why does the > solution have a pH exceeding 11? There is no way this could happen. I > have not seen a US MSDS but if it does not mention that it contains an > amine, then either the European product is different from the US one > (this is unlikely with an identical designation) or it is sadly lacking > in important information. Just dip a pH indicator paper into the > solution and then believe me! > > All saponifiers contain an alkaline product, most frequently an organic > amine. This is no exception, but I forget which one is used in Vigon. It > may be a derivative of one of the propylene amines. It may be that the > MSDS uses a synonym that disguises tha amine group with something > containing nitrogen (analogue to ammonia = nitrogen trihydride): that I > cannot say. In any case, the odour of the hot solution gives the amine > away to anyone who has experience of using them. Commercial defluxing > saponifiers also contain solvents, because not all the flux residues are > saponifiable and solvents are a requirement to ensure maximal cleaning. > They are usually either heavy alcohols or diglycol ethers or a > combination of both. Therefore it is normal that the MSDS should mention > them. > > Still don't believe me? OK. Look up the Handbook of Solvents, edited by > George Wypych, Chemtec Publishing (2001), p. 899, Section 14.8.2.1.4, > entitled Water-based cleaning agents based on MPC technology. This > section contains the following sentence: "Alkaline pH, that is essential > for the saponification process, can be realized through biochemical > buffer systems, predominately aminoalkanoles." And that was not written > by Brian Ellis but by Martin Hanek of Dr O.K. Wack Chemie and Andreas > Mühlbauer of the Zestron Corporation. Straight from the horse's mouth, > n'est ce pas? Or, rather, nicht war? Incidentally, the terminology in > this sentence is questionable: there is nothing bio- about the > buffering. > > Worker safety: it is essential that operators wear full chemical > protection when handling either the concentrate or the working solution. > An untreated splash of the concentrate, or even the solution, in the > eyes could lead to rapid blindness. At the best, even if treated > immediately, it would be screamingly painful. It should never be used or > stored without a functional eyewash basin in the immediate vicinity. The > skin is also sensitive and splashes should be washed immediately in > copious rinses (if I clean one circuit by unprotected hand in the > solution with a brush, the skin desquamates from that brief exposure - > voice of experience). Vapours: all amines are toxic to inhale. I don't > know the OEL for this particular one, but MEA, the most popular amine, > is usually in the 3 - 10 ppm range, in most countries. If you can smell > it, the concentration is probably already too high. For example, in the > US, the PEL for MEA is 3 ppm and the odour threshold is 2.6 ppm. > Although I don't have figures, there is no reason to believe that other > amines are that much more benign. Also, if ingested, it would not > improve the health of the operator. Large quantities of lemon juice (or > Coca Cola), followed by a suspension of active carbon in water, would be > the best treatement if the patient is conscious. Do NOT provoke > vomiting. Call a doctor immediately. If the patient is unconscious, keep > airways free, monitor his state and if necessary administer oxygen or > mouth-to-mouth respiration. Likely doses would not cause cardiac > depression in normal patients but, if strictly necessary, CPR could be > administered until medical help arrives. > > Environment: > 1) Heavy metals: By definition, the fluxes will remove heavy metal > oxides from the solder and components to form heavy metal salts. These > will be removed in the Vigon solution. This solution, and the filter > cartridges, are therefore hazardous waste and must never be disposed of > by normal channels without prior recovery of the heavy metals. As the > solution is used for long periods, because of their unique process, the > metal concentration may rise to such levels that the solution dragged > out may contain enough to contaminate the first wash water, depending on > the cleaning machine design. It is therefore essential to check that > this water, too, is acceptable for disposal according to the local > regulations > 2) pH: Most water companies accept waste water with a pH between 6 and > 8.5 or 9 (check your local regulations). You are required to ensure that > anything you send to waste is within tolerance. The solution most > certainly isn't. If your waste water is consistently alkaline, some > types of sewage pipes could be damaged, causing leaks that would be > health hazard for the local population. > 3) Biodegradability: everything organic is biodegradable, given enough > time and the right conditions. Ideally, we want biodegradation to be as > rapid as possible. Given enough oxygen, there is no reason to believe > that Vigon A-200 would not aerobically degrade rapidly, which is good. > However, is there enough oxygen? Many treatment plants for either > industrial or publicly owned run at the limit of their oxygenation > capabilities. If it is insufficient, suddenly adding large quantities of > Vigon solution with a relatively high concentration of organic matter > with C-3 or higher molecules may overload the capabilities of the plant. > Check with your effluent/hazardous waste disopsal chain. > 4) VOC: Vigon is a volatile organic compound: check with your local > authorities whether you require a scrubber in your ventilation system > before discharge to the air. > > I'm sorry to be a prophet of doom but, from the info given in posts > here, it would seem that some users may have been ill-informed. I'm > therefore putting the church back where it belongs, in the middle of the > village. > > I put into service the first Vigon A-200 system in Switzerland. I was > very impressed by its performance, better than other saponifiers I > tried. It's damn good, in fact. However, I was unimpressed by the fact > that the importer had not complied with Swiss labelling requirements nor > given my client any H&S advice. However, at the time, it was a new > product and I assumed that the appropriate compliance would follow. With > this experience, I do know what I'm talking about, so please give me a > little credit and, if you use the product, make sure you use it well and > safely. You can only be satisfied if you wish to go the saponification > route. > > Best regards, > > Brian > > PS PLEASE spell my name correctly: flattery will get you nowhere :-) > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- > Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8e > To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in > the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet > To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to > [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) > To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to > [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest > Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives > Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm for additional > information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-509-9700 > ext.5315 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8e > To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in > the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet > To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) > To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest > Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives > Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm for additional > information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-509-9700 ext.5315 > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8e To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-509-9700 ext.5315 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------