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Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 15:21:51 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Alain Savard <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Alain Savard <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: really big boards
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I don't know, but from I've read of this message I don't think that
lamination is really required. Imaging would be the bigger trouble.
Guy, You may get more answers if you can get a bit more details...
Just one layer or more?
What kind of finish?
Hole size and precision of positioning required?
We don't build fabs here anymore. But from a purchasing point of view, the
more details you give here, the better your chances of finding a solution.
Alain Savard
QA - PCB
CAE Inc.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brummer Chuck [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: May 17, 2002 12:40 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] really big boards
Some Mass Laminatin set ups could handle this size in lamination. But that
is bigger than the largest exposure unit I've ever seen. The largest Scanex
exposure unit I remember was 36" x 72". You still need a drill that big,
never heard of one of those?
Chuck Brummer
-----Original Message-----
From: Hinners Hans M Civ WRALC/LUGE [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 8:08 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] really big boards
Hey Guy,
I can't say I've every seen or heard of an exposure unit that large or a lam
press if it's multilayer that it could fit in. (You'd need a crane for the
caul plates.)
It must be Friday.
Hans
-----Original Message-----
From: Guy Ramsey [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 7:14 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] really big boards
Anybody know where we can get quotes on 4 by 8 boards. Yes, four foot by
eight foot boards. We do not need through hole plating but we do need images
on both sides, oh yeah and thin 1mm or so.
Guy Ramsey
Senior Technician / Instructor
<outbind://56/www.aciusa.org>
E-Mail: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Ph: (610) 362-1200 x107
Fax: (610) 362-1290
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Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 15:39:26 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Bev Christian <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Bev Christian <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Dielectric material vs. Solder mask
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Technetters,
What is the crossover point from solder mask to dielectric protective
material?
regards,
Bev Christian
Research in Motion
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Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 16:29:01 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
David Fish <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: David Fish <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Looking for A Solderability Spec
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Dave,
I do not have a copy, but EIA-575 'Resistors, Rectangular, Surface Mount,
General Purpose ' is a common document. Maybe your Vishay or other resistor
rep and detail the paragraph you reference..
Dave Fish
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Hillman" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 11:18 AM
Subject: [TN] Looking for A Solderability Spec
> Hi Technet! Hey, I ran into this solderability callout which has me
> completely baffled (no, extra Coke did help either) - "Solderability shall
> be per EIA-575, paragraph 3.12". What the heck is
> EIA 575? Can anyone tell me what the 575 spec requires?
>
> Dave Hillman
> Rockwell Collins
> [log in to unmask]
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 16:29:31 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"WEEKES, MICHAEL HS-SNS" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "WEEKES, MICHAEL HS-SNS" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Looking for A Solderability Spec
X-To: "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
EIA 575 is a general purpose rectangular smt resistor spec. 16 pgs
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Hillman [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 1:18 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Looking for A Solderability Spec
Importance: High
Hi Technet! Hey, I ran into this solderability callout which has me
completely baffled (no, extra Coke did help either) - "Solderability shall
be per EIA-575, paragraph 3.12". What the heck is
EIA 575? Can anyone tell me what the 575 spec requires?
Dave Hillman
Rockwell Collins
[log in to unmask]
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Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 17:04:11 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Guy Ramsey <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Guy Ramsey <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: really big boards - all humor, no tech value
X-To: [log in to unmask]
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No wave solder. We just need a really nice copper pattern on two sides of a
laminate that is 4 by 8; no drills, no parts, limited hand soldering.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Dave Hillman
> Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 2:07 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] really big boards - all humor, no tech value
>
>
> Hi Mike! If I didn't know better, I would swear that the TechNet crew has
> somehow obtained a few bottles of Sir Doug's "special" Mountain Dew! Maybe
> the scarier issue is that I am betting that Guy is serious - if I
> could put
> his 2x4 pwb through the wave solder machine I'd have one end in the wave
> while the other end was still in the preheaters!
>
> Dave Hillman
> Rockwell Collins
> [log in to unmask]
>
>
>
>
>
> "Barmuta, Mike" <[log in to unmask]>@ipc.org> on 05/17/2002
> 11:40:11 AM
>
> Please respond to "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>;
> Please respond
> to "Barmuta, Mike" <[log in to unmask]>
>
> Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
>
>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> cc:
>
> Subject: Re: [TN] really big boards
>
>
> Hans:
> For imaging, you could laminate them with a hot clothes iron and expose
> them
> outside on a sunny day. Probably want to be at the equator on the solar
> equinox to prevent undercut and maintain proper line width.
> Of course a swimming pool with sodium carbonate would be perfect
> to develop
> them in. They could be towed around in a little row boat to assure even
> solution flow across the panel for uniform developing.
>
> Geez, I need a vacation.
>
>
> Mike Barmuta
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hinners Hans M Civ WRALC/LUGE [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 8:08 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] really big boards
>
>
> Hey Guy,
>
> I can't say I've every seen or heard of an exposure unit that large or a
> lam
> press if it's multilayer that it could fit in. (You'd need a
> crane for the
> caul plates.)
>
> It must be Friday.
>
> Hans
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Guy Ramsey [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 7:14 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] really big boards
>
>
> Anybody know where we can get quotes on 4 by 8 boards. Yes, four foot by
> eight foot boards. We do not need through hole plating but we do need
> images
> on both sides, oh yeah and thin 1mm or so.
>
>
> Guy Ramsey
> Senior Technician / Instructor
> <outbind://56/www.aciusa.org>
> E-Mail: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Ph: (610) 362-1200 x107
> Fax: (610) 362-1290
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------
>
> Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d
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> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------
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Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 17:12:12 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Guy Ramsey <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Guy Ramsey <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Looking for A Solderability Spec
X-To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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EIA 575 specification for SMT Resistors never used it. Google search yields
all kinds of references to in at the component level, thermal shock,
marking,
http://global.ihs.com/search_res.cfm?customer_id=%21%25L%2F%2B%0A&shopping_c
art_id=%27%25X7%25KP%3COY%40%20%22%0A&country_code=US&lang_code=ENGL
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Dave Hillman
> Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 2:18 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] Looking for A Solderability Spec
> Importance: High
>
>
> Hi Technet! Hey, I ran into this solderability callout which has me
> completely baffled (no, extra Coke did help either) - "Solderability shall
> be per EIA-575, paragraph 3.12". What the heck is
> EIA 575? Can anyone tell me what the 575 spec requires?
>
> Dave Hillman
> Rockwell Collins
> [log in to unmask]
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------
> Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d
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> 847-509-9700 ext.5315
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------
>
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Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 16:17:44 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
[log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Looking for A Solderability Spec
X-To: [log in to unmask]
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Dave,
This refers to Electronic Industry Alliance. Here is what IHS has for the
575 spec. You would think that by now you would know to come to me with
these questions.
Doug Pauls
Rockwell Collins
(Sits the other side of a cubical wall from Dave)
Title: Resistors, Rectangular, Surface Mount, General Purpose
ANSI Approved Document: Yes
Document Type: Industry Standards
Preparing Activity: EIA1
ELECTRONIC INDUSTRIES ALLIANCE
Publication Date: 01 Jan 1990
Revision Level Issue Date Pages
EIA 575 01 Jan 1990 16
Thes Keywords: FIXED RESISTORS SURFACE
Thes Keywords: MOUNT QUALITY ASSURANCE
Unit Of Measure: Not measurement sensitive
Document Number: EIA 575
Custodians: EIA1
ELECTRONIC INDUSTRIES ALLIANCE
2500 Wilson Blvd
Arlington, VA 22201-3834
(703)907-7584
(703)907-7501
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Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 16:31:28 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
[log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Dave Hillman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Looking for A Solderability Spec - No technical content
contained
X-To: [log in to unmask]
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Doug,
I understand what the EIA stands for and that the EIA 575 is listed in our
IHS specification service. However, the Rockwell Collins subscription does
not include the EIA specifications and I was hoping some of our TechNet
friends could inform me on what paragraph 3.12 specifically said. We
engineers who aren't rookies here at Collins already know the subscription
limits.
Dave
Rockwell Collins
(Sits the other side of a cubical wall from Dave)
(and for our TechNet friends benefit - Doug and I like to give each other
loads of harassment)
Douglas O Pauls
05/17/2002 04:17 PM
To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
[log in to unmask]
cc:
Subject: Re: [TN] Looking for A Solderability Spec (Document link:
David D Hillman)
Dave,
This refers to Electronic Industry Alliance. Here is what IHS has for the
575 spec. You would think that by now you would know to come to me with
these questions.
Doug Pauls
Rockwell Collins
(Sits the other side of a cubical wall from Dave)
Title: Resistors, Rectangular, Surface Mount, General Purpose
ANSI Approved Document: Yes
Document Type: Industry Standards
Preparing Activity: EIA1
ELECTRONIC INDUSTRIES ALLIANCE
Publication Date: 01 Jan 1990
Revision Level Issue Date Pages
EIA 575 01 Jan 1990 16
Thes Keywords: FIXED RESISTORS SURFACE
Thes Keywords: MOUNT QUALITY ASSURANCE
Unit Of Measure: Not measurement sensitive
Document Number: EIA 575
Custodians: EIA1
ELECTRONIC INDUSTRIES ALLIANCE
2500 Wilson Blvd
Arlington, VA 22201-3834
(703)907-7584
(703)907-7501
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=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 17:39:12 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: BGA X-ray Cross Section services - Vendors?
MIME-Version: 1.0
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FeinFocus does x-ray service / contract work of this type with their 3-D
Visualizer equipment.
Jon Moore
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Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 17:46:01 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Conformal Coating
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When I was in airbag control manufacturing, we routinely left the open areas
of the board, with only SMOBC traces, uncoated. Not any reliability concerns
that I was ever aware of.
Jon Moore
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Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 16:54:37 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Mel Parrish <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Mel Parrish <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Conformal Coating
X-To: "Misner, Bruce" <[log in to unmask]>
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Hi Bruce,
It's time for the weekend.
The materials have distinct differences in intended purpose and properties.
One to prevent solder attachment to conductive surfaces during processing
and the other to provide limited environmental protection, mechanical
support and vibration dampening. I would suggest using each for it's
individual purpose but, having said that, I've also seen what you suggest
used for some commercial products. Can't recall any class 3 applications
though. I suppose it depends a great deal on the purpose of the product and
the environment that it will see during performance. Class 3 definition of
product classification can be quite varied as I'm sure you are aware.
Mel Parrish
Soldering Technology International
102 Tribble Drive
Madison, AL 35758
256 705 5530
256 705 5538 Fax
[log in to unmask]
www.solderingtech.com
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Misner, Bruce
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 12:10 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Conformal Coating
I have a CM that precision spray coats UR with an x-y programmable gantry
system. They would like to avoid coating large areas of the board that have
no components but DOES have conductors covered by solder mask over bare
copper. The boards are all Class 3, 4 layers, some designs Tin/lead plate
finish, some solder dipped finish, some .062 thk, some .125 thick.
They are requesting a change of wording on the drawing to read: Coat all
components, leads, solder joints and exposed circuitry per J-Std-001. Does
anyone have serious concerns with this approach?
Bruce Misner
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Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 19:33:14 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Werner Engelmaier <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Voids in fine-pitch BGAs after reflow
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hi Hakan,
No, there are no theories indicating that one can tolerate higher percentage
as the balls get smaller. There is also very little in data. The data that do
exist indicate that voids result in a temporary localized retardation of
crack propagation, but no data exist to my knowledge that
the info in IPC-7095:
Class I: 60% of dia = 36% of area
Class II: 45% of dia = 20.25% of area
Class III: 30% of dia = 9% of area
is based on any real experience.
Werner Engelmaier
Engelmaier Associates, L.C.
Electronic Packaging, Interconnection and Reliability Consulting
7 Jasmine Run
Ormond Beach, FL 32174 USA
Phone: 386-437-8747, Fax: 386-437-8737
E-mail: [log in to unmask], Website: www.engelmaier.com
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Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 19:33:10 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Werner Engelmaier <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: BGA warpage - defects in the corners.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hi Henry,
These type of BGAs, sometimes called super-BGAs, SBGAs, will always warp on
T-changes because of their asymmetric construction. Only when the package
houses finally realize that these packages need to be designed in a thermally
symmetric manner will this prooblem go away.
Werner Engelmaier
Engelmaier Associates, L.C.
Electronic Packaging, Interconnection and Reliability Consulting
7 Jasmine Run
Ormond Beach, FL 32174 USA
Phone: 386-437-8747, Fax: 386-437-8737
E-mail: [log in to unmask], Website: www.engelmaier.com
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Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 07:51:53 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Randy Bock Sr." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Randy Bock Sr." <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: BGA X-ray Cross Section services - Vendors?
X-To: [log in to unmask]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Could use an address and phone number if possible.
Randy Bock Sr.
[log in to unmask]
----- Original Message -----
From: <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 5:39 PM
Subject: Re: [TN] BGA X-ray Cross Section services - Vendors?
> FeinFocus does x-ray service / contract work of this type with their 3-D
> Visualizer equipment.
>
> Jon Moore
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 08:01:17 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Ed Popielarski <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Ed Popielarski <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: really big boards - all humor, no tech value
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0043_01C1FE42.3084F100"
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------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C1FE42.3084F100
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
We could build a Wave for you!
I figure it would have to ship on 2 flatbed trucks, and turn it on edge =
to get into the bulding, but we've done that before, too! Right Steve?
Oh yeah... did I mention the nuclear power station you need to install =
next door?
Regards,
Ed Popielarski
QTA Machine
10 Mc Laren, Ste D
Irvine, Ca. 92618
Phone:949-581-6601
Fax: 949-581-2448
Cel: 949-337-2578
WWW.QTA.NET
ORIGINAL MESSAGE:
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 13:07:04 -0500
From: Dave Hillman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: really big boards - all humor, no tech value
Hi Mike! If I didn't know better, I would swear that the TechNet crew =
has
somehow obtained a few bottles of Sir Doug's "special" Mountain Dew! =
Maybe
the scarier issue is that I am betting that Guy is serious - if I could =
put
his 2x4 pwb through the wave solder machine I'd have one end in the =
wave
while the other end was still in the preheaters!
Dave Hillman
Rockwell Collins
[log in to unmask]
------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C1FE42.3084F100
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4807.2300" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>We could build a Wave for =
you!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I figure it would have to ship on 2 =
flatbed trucks,=20
and turn it on edge to get into the bulding, but we've done that before, =
too!=20
Right Steve?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Oh yeah... did I mention the =
nuclear power=20
station you need to install next door?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ed Popielarski<BR>QTA Machine<BR>10 Mc =
Laren, Ste=20
D<BR>Irvine, Ca. 92618</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Phone:949-581-6601<BR>Fax: =
949-581-2448<BR>Cel:=20
949-337-2578</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.QTA.NET">WWW.QTA.NET</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>ORIGINAL MESSAGE:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, =
17 May=20
2002 13:07:04 -0500<BR>From: Dave Hillman <<A=20
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
</A>><BR>Subject:=20
Re: really big boards - all humor, no tech value<BR><BR>Hi Mike! If I =
didn't=20
know better, I would swear that the TechNet crew has<BR>somehow obtained =
a few=20
bottles of Sir Doug's "special" Mountain Dew! Maybe<BR>the scarier issue =
is that=20
I am betting that Guy is serious - if I could put<BR>his 2x4 pwb =
through=20
the wave solder machine I'd have one end in the wave<BR>while the other =
end was=20
still in the preheaters!<BR><BR>Dave Hillman<BR>Rockwell Collins<BR><A=20
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
</A><BR><BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C1FE42.3084F100--
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=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 11:58:06 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Randy Bock Sr." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Randy Bock Sr." <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: really big boards - all humor, no tech value
X-To: Ed Popielarski <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C1FE63.459514A0"
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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On a rather wet and lousy day this gave me a good laugh.
Thanks (of course your serious)
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Ed Popielarski=20
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 11:01 AM
Subject: Re: [TN] really big boards - all humor, no tech value
We could build a Wave for you!
=20
I figure it would have to ship on 2 flatbed trucks, and turn it on =
edge to get into the bulding, but we've done that before, too! Right =
Steve?
=20
Oh yeah... did I mention the nuclear power station you need to =
install next door?
=20
Regards,
Ed Popielarski
QTA Machine
10 Mc Laren, Ste D
Irvine, Ca. 92618
Phone:949-581-6601
Fax: 949-581-2448
Cel: 949-337-2578
WWW.QTA.NET
=20
ORIGINAL MESSAGE:
=20
=20
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 13:07:04 -0500
From: Dave Hillman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: really big boards - all humor, no tech value
Hi Mike! If I didn't know better, I would swear that the TechNet crew =
has
somehow obtained a few bottles of Sir Doug's "special" Mountain Dew! =
Maybe
the scarier issue is that I am betting that Guy is serious - if I =
could put
his 2x4 pwb through the wave solder machine I'd have one end in the =
wave
while the other end was still in the preheaters!
Dave Hillman
Rockwell Collins
[log in to unmask]
------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C1FE63.459514A0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>On a rather wet and lousy day this gave me a good=20
laugh.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Thanks (of course your serious)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" =
[log in to unmask]>Ed=20
Popielarski</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"=20
[log in to unmask]>[log in to unmask]</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, May 18, 2002 =
11:01=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [TN] really big =
boards - all=20
humor, no tech value</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>We could build a Wave for =
you!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I figure it would have to ship on 2 =
flatbed=20
trucks, and turn it on edge to get into the bulding, but we've done =
that=20
before, too! Right Steve?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Oh yeah... did I mention the =
nuclear power=20
station you need to install next door?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ed Popielarski<BR>QTA Machine<BR>10 =
Mc Laren, Ste=20
D<BR>Irvine, Ca. 92618</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Phone:949-581-6601<BR>Fax: =
949-581-2448<BR>Cel:=20
949-337-2578</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.QTA.NET">WWW.QTA.NET</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>ORIGINAL MESSAGE:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: =
Fri, 17 May=20
2002 13:07:04 -0500<BR>From: Dave Hillman <<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
</A>><BR>Subject:=20
Re: really big boards - all humor, no tech value<BR><BR>Hi Mike! If I =
didn't=20
know better, I would swear that the TechNet crew has<BR>somehow =
obtained a few=20
bottles of Sir Doug's "special" Mountain Dew! Maybe<BR>the scarier =
issue is=20
that I am betting that Guy is serious - if I could put<BR>his =
2x4 pwb=20
through the wave solder machine I'd have one end in the wave<BR>while =
the=20
other end was still in the preheaters!<BR><BR>Dave Hillman<BR>Rockwell =
Collins<BR><A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
</A><BR><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 11:52:34 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Looking for A Solderability Spec - No technical content
contained
X-To: Dave Hillman <[log in to unmask]>
Well Dave and Doug,
My long time girl friend of over two days now advises when you older folks
drink such stuff as coke and dew in copious amounts, it revitalizes poors
and prevents, or at least reduces, the agin processes. Hence, you older
engineers, no longer rookies, really appear that way. She supplied lots of
other advice for me, not you, and I will put it to good use, not you.
MoonMan
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Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 11:54:42 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Looking for A Solderability Spec - No technical content
contained
X-To: Dave Hillman <[log in to unmask]>
poors? jeez, I dew need a dictionary and a new long time girlfriend.
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Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 12:01:29 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: BGA warpage - defects in the corners.
X-To: Werner Engelmaier <[log in to unmask]>
Super BGA's always have been a problem whether metal topped or not. Gabby is
going through pain on this as well. Hope she got her's worked out. I
certainly concur they are problematic as you say suppliers just dump some on
us and it's getting more prevalent all the time. Speaking of concur, where
is it or has it gone? All my young, impressionable engineers and designers
just blame the BGA and the assembly house without really having a clue the
problem.
My sagging, asymetric ass is sore from all its kicking,
MoonMan
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Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 12:06:24 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Looking for A Solderability Spec
X-To: [log in to unmask]
You two/too really are a pair. I can just see the setup now. Who's got the
refrigerator with the dew and coke? Concurrently shared I imagine.
About the buttercoat and thin core/preg: still the resin to glass ratio is
very high and the glass reinforcement gets thinner and less as a function of
it. Sure like to see some high current track type stuff.
MoonMan
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Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 17:39:14 -0500
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Seth Goodman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: BGA replacement
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Peter,
I like this concept very much, as it is easier than manually dispensing flux
on every ball. Do you know of any commercial sources for gadgets as you
describe to immerse BGA's a known depth into paste flux? I think I once saw
a simple device like this demonstrated as part of the rework process for a
very expensive rework station (can't remember the brand). Jeff, does your
company make anything like this for applying flux to the part instead of the
board?
Regards,
Seth Goodman
Goodman Associates, LLC
tel 608.833.9933
fax 608.833.9966
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of
> [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2002 7:24 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] BGA replacement
>
>
> The most straightforward and practical advice I've had about replacing
> BGA's is not at all fancy, and works.
>
> There is always a problem with trying to put solder paste down on an
> already-assembled board. There's too little space, microstencils are
> expensive and fiddly, with problems of how to anchor them, etc, etc.
>
> There is also no need, really, to apply extra solder paste to
> replace BGA's
> either - their balls are made entirely of solder. Not using extra solder
> results in a lower stand-off height, and if this is a problem, then by all
> means use solder paste, but, what works well on a properly cleaned site is
> flux paste.
>
> Small, simple stencils can be made with a screen window that accommodates
> the ball pattern up to a depth of about half the ball height, or whatever
> you prefer. Into this window, you screen flux paste or solderpaste with a
> hand squeegee, then sit the BGA into the paste to coat the balls to the
> predetermined height (set by the screen thickness). Then, simply
> remove the
> BGA from the screen, align it over the site and place it on the board.
>
> In practice, you don't necessarily need very fancy alignment equipment
> either - simple copper features on the board like a pair of small pads on
> each side of the device boundary can be used for visual alignment that is
> accurate enough. The BGA's self-centring abilities will pull it completely
> into line if your reflow profile is correct.
>
> I confess I was very sceptical when I was first told about this
> method, but
> it does work, even with micro BGA's. Try it sometime. We're getting very
> good at making expensive machines to overcome a relatively simple problem,
> when what we have to do is understand the mechanics of the process to find
> something much less costly, if a bit less idiot-proof. Maybe we
> should stop
> employing idiots, or put them somewhere else where they can't do any harm.
>
> (Now ducking behind the parapet)
>
> Peter
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Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 18:11:19 -0500
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Seth Goodman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Electrical Isolation in dbm ?
X-To: Goh Guan Chye <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Hello Guan,
Insulation resistance is a dc measurement of resistance and it therefore
must be in units of Ohms. It is usually specific to a particular test setup
since the conductance across the surface of the laminate and through the
body of it are not the same. If you were interested in sheet resistance of
the raw laminate material (two-dimensional properties), the appropriate
units would be Ohms per square. If you were interested in three-dimensional
properties, the parameter is volume resistivity and the units are typically
Ohm-centimeters.
When you talk about electrical isolation and mention dBm, you are referring
to ac performance. I am just guessing at what you meant, but it sounds like
you are looking for steady-state coupling from one trace to another at a
given frequency, which could be measured in dB or dBm. This is dependent on
the geometry of the conductors and laminate, the laminate properties plus
the source and load impedances. The ac laminate properties (dielectric
constant and loss factor) are only two factors in this calculation, and not
really the major ones. Since the ac impedances are usually orders of
magnitude less than the dc insulation resistance, this quantity does not
usually contribute at all. For this reason, we don't really talk about
electrical isolation properties of a laminate, except for the one case of
insulation resistance at dc.
Hope this helps. If I have misinterpreted your question, please try again.
Regards,
Seth Goodman
Goodman Associates, LLC
tel 608.833.9933
fax 608.833.9966
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Goh Guan Chye
> Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 10:29 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] Electrical Isolation in dbm ?
>
>
> Hi Technetter,
>
> Noticed from FR4's materials properties that the unit used in the
> Insulation Resistance is in "ohm", just wonder is there anyway or
> logical to interpret as "dbm" ?
>
> Appreciate kindly advise please.
>
> Regards,
> Guan Chye
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Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 00:17:15 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: BGA X-ray Cross Section services - Vendors?
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In a message dated 5/18/2002 6:50:15 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
<< Could use an address and phone number if possible.
Randy Bock Sr.
[log in to unmask]
>>
The only address I have is for their East Coast office, but they do have a
California office, too.
32 Brinton Drive
Nashua, NH 03063
603-595-2278
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Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 16:59:52 +0200
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Marki Sasportas <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Marki Sasportas <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Trough hole soldering
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1255"
Dear Technetter,
What is the hole diameter that needed for 0.75mmX1.5mm leg dimensions?
Thanks in advance,
Masrki Sasportas.
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Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 13:57:41 -0500
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Seth Goodman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Crimped connections
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I agree with all that has been said, more or less. The two key points for
me are:
1) Tinning the wire wicks solder up the stranded wire into the insulation
region and defeats the strain relief that wire insulation naturally gives.
2) Tinning the wire can also wick up nasty flux components that will
eventually eat the wire for lunch.
3) Crimping is dependent on the having the right cross-sectional area of
metals with the right modulus inside the crimp die. The crimp dies were
designed for copper wire, phosphor bronze terminals, etc. This does not
mean they won't work with tin/lead in addition to the other metals inside,
it just means that someone has to do a lot of homework to figure this out.
Any takers?
4) I cannot find my IPC Handbook on counting. Someone please assist. This
is beyond coffee, time to "do the Dew".
Next time a design engineer asks why you don't tin wire before crimping, the
best approach is to smile and simply say "Because". Engineers understand
and readily accept this answer. I particularly appreciate it when
manufacturing gives me this answer to a legitimate question. It shows that
they've carefully thought through problem and they know I can't do anything
about it. Did I tell you about the 200 pound Muskie I caught ice fishing
this year?
Regards,
Seth Goodman
Goodman Associates, LLC
tel 608.833.9933
fax 608.833.9966
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Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 20:42:23 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Werner Engelmaier <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: BGA warpage - defects in the corners.
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hi MoonMan,
Since the assembly houses last worked on the assemblies it is easy to blame
them; it HAS to be their fault. That's the lazy way out, leads to
disagreements and litigation, and gets you no closer to really solving the
problem.
As some cynic some time ago told me, I should write an open Letter Of
Appreciation to all component manufacturers for providing me with so many
consulting 'opportunities.'
Werner
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Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 20:42:25 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Werner Engelmaier <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: testing via holes
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Hi Kris,
You have a real problem--it means the plating process used is inadequate for
the PWB design (via diameter, PWB thickness, aspect ratio) and that the
problem is systemic. Not only do you have holes with incomplete Cu coverage,
but the copper that did get plated is very likely of inferior quality in
terms of strength and ductility. The consequence is that you will get barrel
fractures due to the thermal expansion mismatch at soldering process steps.
In my opinion any test/sort/screening effort is a waste of time and
resources; I hope you do not have too many of these PWBs, because they should
be scrapped.
Werner Engelmaier
Engelmaier Associates, L.C.
Electronic Packaging, Interconnection and Reliability Consulting
7 Jasmine Run
Ormond Beach, FL 32174 USA
Phone: 386-437-8747, Fax: 386-437-8737
E-mail: [log in to unmask], Website: www.engelmaier.com
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Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 00:38:14 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Rob Legg <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Rob Legg <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Trough hole soldering
X-To: Marki Sasportas <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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You probably couldn't go lower than 1.9mm (.075) for automated insertion.
RL
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marki Sasportas" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 10:59 AM
Subject: [TN] Trough hole soldering
> Dear Technetter,
>
> What is the hole diameter that needed for 0.75mmX1.5mm leg dimensions?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Masrki Sasportas.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 08:19:37 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Eric Dawson <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Eric Dawson <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: testing via holes
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Kris,
Whilst I agree with the reply from Werner about scrapping the boards (what
reliability do you need in the field?), sometimes you're pressurised to use
the product against your better judgement. If you do need to sort the good
from the bad, I have found that some poorly processed via holes can be
detected with a simple X Ray inspection set-up.
The boards need to be tilted back to about 45 degrees to the X ray beam and
you can then see the barrel plating. Look for inconsistencies along the
length of the barrels.
It will not be quick, but it is non-destructive.
Good luck
Regards
Eric Dawson
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Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 09:12:38 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Geoff Layhe <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Geoff Layhe <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: really big boards
X-To: Guy Ramsey <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
There's a company in the UK who manufacture large antenna boards, up to 3
metres (that's 9 feet!!) in length. Their web site is www.trackwisw.co.uk
geoff ;layhe
www.lamar-uk.co.uk
-----Original Message-----
From: Guy Ramsey [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 17 May 2002 22:04
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] really big boards - all humor, no tech value
No wave solder. We just need a really nice copper pattern on two sides of a
laminate that is 4 by 8; no drills, no parts, limited hand soldering.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Dave Hillman
> Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 2:07 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] really big boards - all humor, no tech value
>
>
> Hi Mike! If I didn't know better, I would swear that the TechNet crew has
> somehow obtained a few bottles of Sir Doug's "special" Mountain Dew! Maybe
> the scarier issue is that I am betting that Guy is serious - if I
> could put
> his 2x4 pwb through the wave solder machine I'd have one end in the wave
> while the other end was still in the preheaters!
>
> Dave Hillman
> Rockwell Collins
> [log in to unmask]
>
>
>
>
>
> "Barmuta, Mike" <[log in to unmask]>@ipc.org> on 05/17/2002
> 11:40:11 AM
>
> Please respond to "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>;
> Please respond
> to "Barmuta, Mike" <[log in to unmask]>
>
> Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
>
>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> cc:
>
> Subject: Re: [TN] really big boards
>
>
> Hans:
> For imaging, you could laminate them with a hot clothes iron and expose
> them
> outside on a sunny day. Probably want to be at the equator on the solar
> equinox to prevent undercut and maintain proper line width.
> Of course a swimming pool with sodium carbonate would be perfect
> to develop
> them in. They could be towed around in a little row boat to assure even
> solution flow across the panel for uniform developing.
>
> Geez, I need a vacation.
>
>
> Mike Barmuta
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hinners Hans M Civ WRALC/LUGE [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 8:08 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] really big boards
>
>
> Hey Guy,
>
> I can't say I've every seen or heard of an exposure unit that large or a
> lam
> press if it's multilayer that it could fit in. (You'd need a
> crane for the
> caul plates.)
>
> It must be Friday.
>
> Hans
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Guy Ramsey [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 7:14 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] really big boards
>
>
> Anybody know where we can get quotes on 4 by 8 boards. Yes, four foot by
> eight foot boards. We do not need through hole plating but we do need
> images
> on both sides, oh yeah and thin 1mm or so.
>
>
> Guy Ramsey
> Senior Technician / Instructor
> <outbind://56/www.aciusa.org>
> E-Mail: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Ph: (610) 362-1200 x107
> Fax: (610) 362-1290
>
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>
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Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 11:57:38 +0200
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Via Capacitance
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Hi All,
With regards to how a vias capacitance varies with the finished hole size,
is there a formula to calculate this? We intend to reduce the via dimensions
from 10 mils to 8 mils on a via-in-pad via. The concern is that in RF
circuits this has been used for a reason and we are getting kick back due to
the concern that the capacitance of the via is being modified.
Thanks for your help.
Best regards
Marc Cowen
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Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 07:01:49 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Kasprzak, Bill (sys) USX" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Kasprzak, Bill (sys) USX" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Crimped connections
X-To: "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>
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Seth,
I know I sound like a broken record but,
crimping is just that, crimping. If you find it necessary to add solder or
even compelled to add solder, then change your connection from a crimp
design to a solder design. So, all these consequential results such as
wicking causing loss of strain relief and the entrapment of flux cannot be
part of the equation when the connection was designed to be crimped, period.
I still maintain that if the connection that being made is supposed to be
crimped, then crimp it and be done with it. No other secondary processes
need to added. Otherwise, skip the crimping and just solder the wire. You
should not do both.
Bill Kasprzak
Moog Inc. Manufacturing Engineering, Electronics
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Seth Goodman [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 2:58 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Crimped connections
>
> I agree with all that has been said, more or less. The two key points for
> me are:
>
> 1) Tinning the wire wicks solder up the stranded wire into the insulation
> region and defeats the strain relief that wire insulation naturally gives.
>
> 2) Tinning the wire can also wick up nasty flux components that will
> eventually eat the wire for lunch.
>
> 3) Crimping is dependent on the having the right cross-sectional area of
> metals with the right modulus inside the crimp die. The crimp dies were
> designed for copper wire, phosphor bronze terminals, etc. This does not
> mean they won't work with tin/lead in addition to the other metals inside,
> it just means that someone has to do a lot of homework to figure this out.
> Any takers?
>
> 4) I cannot find my IPC Handbook on counting. Someone please assist.
> This
> is beyond coffee, time to "do the Dew".
>
>
> Next time a design engineer asks why you don't tin wire before crimping,
> the
> best approach is to smile and simply say "Because". Engineers understand
> and readily accept this answer. I particularly appreciate it when
> manufacturing gives me this answer to a legitimate question. It shows
> that
> they've carefully thought through problem and they know I can't do
> anything
> about it. Did I tell you about the 200 pound Muskie I caught ice fishing
> this year?
>
> Regards,
>
> Seth Goodman
> Goodman Associates, LLC
> tel 608.833.9933
> fax 608.833.9966
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
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Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 10:59:30 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Frank Conti <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: pcb design
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Good morning
I've been building bare boards for 18 years and would like to learn more
about PCB design, hopefully to make my job and yours a little easier. Any
suggestions on a good place to start (classes, books, online, etc.) would be
appreciated.
Thanks in advance
Frank
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<BR>
Good morning<BR>
<BR>
I've been building bare boards for 18 years and would like to learn more about PCB design, hopefully to make my job and yours a little easier. Any suggestions on a good place to start (classes, books, online, etc.) would be appreciated.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Thanks in advance <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Frank</B></FONT></HTML>
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Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 10:53:22 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Linda Woody <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Linda Woody <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Conformal coating BGAs
I am searching for any data out in the industry referencing the affects
of conformal coatings on BGA devices? How much coating should be allowed
under the device? Should the underside of the BGA be completely dammed or
underfilled? I have collected data that shows standard spraying of coating
material does not affect life cycle, but allowing complete underfill of the
coating material greatly reduces life cycle. What concerns are there for
leaving exposed adjacent uncoated conductors (BGA balls) under the BGA
devices?
Regards,
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Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 09:28:18 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Brooks,Bill" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Brooks,Bill" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: pcb design
X-To: "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>
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Hi Frank,
There are some resources available on-line, depending on where you live you
may be able to go to classes locally, or there is Mary Sugden's PCB courses
in Santa Clara..., Some books are available. Most are out of print. Also,
PCB Design Magazine is a great resource to help you get started...and they
put on the PCB WEST and EAST shows exclusively oriented towards PCB Design.
You surely would want to get into the IPC Designers Council and affiliate
with a local chapter to get access to local training and network with other
PCB designers in your area...and they are Holding the Designers Symposiums
this week in Texas, Check out our website.... :)
Bill Brooks
PCB Design Engineer , C.I.D., C.I.I.
TITAN SYSTEMS CORPORATION
DATRON WORLD COMMUNICATIONS DIVISION
3030 Enterprise Court,Vista, CA 92083
Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510
Adjunct Instructor - PCB Design
Palomar College, 1440 West Mission Road
San Marcos, CA 92069-1487
http://www.palomar.edu/ <http://www.palomar.edu/>
Member of the IPC Designers Council
http://dc.ipc.org/ <http://dc.ipc.org/>
Executive Board
Steering Committee
Education Committee
San Diego Chapter of the IPC Designers Council Core Group
Board of Directors, Communications Officer and Webmaster
< http://www.ipc.org/SanDiego/ <http://www.ipc.org/SanDiego/> >
< http://home.fda.net/bbrooks/pca/pca.htm
<http://home.fda.net/bbrooks/pca/pca.htm>
-----Original Message-----
From: Frank Conti [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 8:00 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] pcb design
Good morning
I've been building bare boards for 18 years and would like to learn more
about PCB design, hopefully to make my job and yours a little easier. Any
suggestions on a good place to start (classes, books, online, etc.) would be
appreciated.
Thanks in advance
Frank
------_=_NextPart_001_01C2001B.596A4950
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2712.300" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=124172016-20052002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Hi
Frank,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=124172016-20052002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>There
are some resources available on-line, depending on where you live you may be
able to go to classes locally, or there is Mary Sugden's PCB courses in Santa
Clara..., Some books are available. Most are out of print. Also, PCB Design
Magazine is a great resource to help you get started...and they put on the PCB
WEST and EAST shows exclusively oriented towards PCB Design. You surely
would want to get into the IPC Designers Council and affiliate with a local
chapter to get access to local training and network with other PCB designers in
your area...and they are Holding the Designers Symposiums this week in
Texas, Check out our website.... :)</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=124172016-20052002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=124172016-20052002>
<P><B><FONT face=Arial size=5>Bill Brooks</FONT><FONT face=Arial color=#000000
size=5><I><BR></I></FONT><I></I></B><I></I><FONT face=Arial size=2>PCB Design
Engineer , C.I.D., C.I.I.<BR>TITAN SYSTEMS CORPORATION<BR></FONT><FONT
face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>DATRON WORLD COMMUNICATIONS
DIVISION<BR></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>3030 Enterprise Court,Vista, CA
92083<BR>Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510<BR>Adjunct Instructor -
PCB Design<BR>Palomar College, 1440 West Mission Road<BR>San Marcos, CA</FONT>
<FONT face="Times New Roman">92069-1487<BR><A href="http://www.palomar.edu/"
target=_blank>http://www.palomar.edu/</A></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial
color=#000000 size=2>Member of the IPC Designers Council<BR><U><A
href="http://dc.ipc.org/" target=_blank>http://dc.ipc.org/</A></U><BR>Executive
Board<BR>Steering Committee<BR>Education Committee<BR>San Diego Chapter of the
IPC Designers Council Core Group<BR>Board of Directors, Communications Officer
and Webmaster<BR><U><<A href="http://www.ipc.org/SanDiego/"
target=_blank>http://www.ipc.org/SanDiego/</A>><BR><<A
href="http://home.fda.net/bbrooks/pca/pca.htm"
target=_blank>http://home.fda.net/bbrooks/pca/pca.htm</A><BR></U></FONT></P> </SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Frank Conti
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, May 20, 2002 8:00
AM<BR><B>To:</B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> [TN] pcb
design<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT lang=0
face="Century Gothic" size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><B><BR><BR>Good
morning<BR><BR> I've been building bare boards for 18 years
and would like to learn more about PCB design, hopefully to make my job and
yours a little easier. Any suggestions on a good place to start (classes,
books, online, etc.) would be appreciated.<BR><BR><BR>Thanks in advance
<BR><BR><BR>Frank</B></FONT> </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
------_=_NextPart_001_01C2001B.596A4950--
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Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 10:01:49 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Denis Lefebvre <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Denis Lefebvre <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: pcb design
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Frank;
=20
The best place to go for 'formal' training in PCB design principles is =
The Copper Connection in Santa Clara Ca. www.copperconnection.org. Then, =
there is the issue of the CAD package. A specific CAD package must be =
selected and learned as well. Personally, I've been used the PADS layout =
tool for 15+ years and I am still learning new things. If you have =
access to a CAD design platform, GREAT! If not, for your purposes, I'd =
go with the cheapest thing you can find just to get familiar with the =
design process.
=20
Denis Lefebvre, C.I.D.
Senior PCB Designer
408-542-3832
Finisar Corporation
1308 Moffett Park Drive
Sunnyvale, CA 94086
www.finisar.com <http://www.finisar.com/>=20
=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Frank Conti [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 8:00 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] pcb design
Good morning
I've been building bare boards for 18 years and would like to learn =
more about PCB design, hopefully to make my job and yours a little =
easier. Any suggestions on a good place to start (classes, books, =
online, etc.) would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance =20
Frank=20
------_=_NextPart_001_01C20020.08011CBE
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charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2716.2200" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D761465116-20052002><FONT color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>Frank;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D761465116-20052002><FONT color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D761465116-20052002><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>The =
best place to=20
go for 'formal' training in PCB design principles is The Copper =
Connection in=20
Santa Clara Ca. <A=20
href=3D"http://www.copperconnection.org">www.copperconnection.org</A>. =
Then, there=20
is the issue of the CAD package. A specific CAD package must be =
selected=20
and learned as well. Personally, I've been used the PADS layout tool for =
15+=20
years and I am still learning new things. If you have access to a =
CAD=20
design platform, GREAT! If not, for your purposes, I'd go with the =
cheapest=20
thing you can find just to get familiar with the design=20
process.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D761465116-20052002><FONT color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D761465116-20052002>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Denis Lefebvre, C.I.D.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Senior PCB Designer</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>408-542-3832</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><U><EM><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"><STRONG>Finisar</STRONG></FONT></EM></U>=20
Corporation</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>1308 Moffett Park Drive</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Sunnyvale, CA 94086</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.finisar.com/">www.finisar.com</A></FONT></DIV></SPAN><=
/DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D761465116-20052002><FONT color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D761465116-20052002><FONT color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Frank Conti=20
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, May 20, 2002 8:00=20
AM<BR><B>To:</B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> [TN] pcb=20
design<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT lang=3D0 =
face=3D"Century Gothic" size=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><B><BR><BR>Good=20
morning<BR><BR> I've been building bare boards for =
18 years=20
and would like to learn more about PCB design, hopefully to make my =
job and=20
yours a little easier. Any suggestions on a good place to start =
(classes,=20
books, online, etc.) would be appreciated.<BR><BR><BR>Thanks in =
advance =20
<BR><BR><BR>Frank</B></FONT> </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 10:29:32 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
William Sullivan <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: William Sullivan <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Vision Engraving Systems
Subject: Re: pcb design
X-To: "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>
Hi Frank,,
Check out www.ipc.org for the certification manuals,, also PCB design
magazine... great places to start... Even maybe your local collages... Some
of the school systems are starting to teach design..
Bill
William J. Sullivan C.I.D.
Certified Interconnecting Designer
Technical Support
Vision Engraving Systems
17621 N. Black Canyon Hwy
Phoenix, Arizona 85023
602-439-0600 EX 215
602-439-0500 FAX
[log in to unmask]
-----Original Message-----
From: Frank Conti [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 8:00 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] pcb design
Good morning
I've been building bare boards for 18 years and would like to learn
more
about PCB design, hopefully to make my job and yours a little easier. Any
suggestions on a good place to start (classes, books, online, etc.) would
be
appreciated.
Thanks in advance
Frank
<< File: ATT00013.htm >>
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Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 12:06:51 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Dan R. Johnson" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Dan R. Johnson" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: pcb design
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Frank,
Pads and the other packages are great but a bit pricey if you are just playing around or learning for information purposes only. There is a free cad download at http://www.cadstarworld.com/downloads.asp called Cadstar. Some what limited, 20 components 100 pins, but you get what you pay for. Lavenir has a free Gerber viewer http://www.lavenir.com/Download/download.html and a cheap Gerber editor, ViewMaster (about $300 or $400 ). Graphicode http://www.graphicode.com/index.cfm?section=download also has a free viewer. Both of the viewers will let you edit but not save. I use the Lavenir editor daily I like it pretty well but I'm not a pcb designer I just do step and repeats and add tooling holes and feducials. I also do product design reviews and have spotted a lot of potential problems using a Gerber viewer that didn't show up in the pcb layout software we use.
Hope you find this info useful,
Dan
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Frank,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Pads and the other packages are great
but a bit pricey if you are just playing around or learning for information
purposes only. There is a free cad download at <A
href="http://www.cadstarworld.com/downloads.asp">http://www.cadstarworld.com/downloads.asp</A><A
href="http://www.Zuken.com"></A> called Cadstar. Some what limited, 20
components 100 pins, but you get what you pay for. Lavenir has a
free Gerber viewer <A
href="http://www.lavenir.com/Download/download.html">http://www.lavenir.com/Download/download.html</A> and
a cheap Gerber editor, ViewMaster (about $300 or $400 ). Graphicode <A
href="http://www.graphicode.com/index.cfm?section=download">http://www.graphicode.com/index.cfm?section=download</A> also
has a free viewer. Both of the viewers will let you edit but not save. I use the
Lavenir editor daily I like it pretty well but I'm not a pcb designer I just do
step and repeats and add tooling holes and feducials. I also do product design
reviews and have spotted a lot of potential problems using a Gerber
viewer that didn't show up in the pcb layout software we use. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hope you find this info useful,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Dan</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 15:23:52 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Looking for A Solderability Spec - No technical content
contained
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Dave,
While our standard IHS subscription has its limits too, we also have access
to their TDX (Tech Data Express) area - electronic pay per view or order hard
copies on a per doc. basis. Our company was nice enough to set up a charge
account so we don't have to hunt a credit card down when we want to order
something. Not trying to plug IHS but this is a nice feature.
Mike Sewell
LaBarge inc.
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2>Dave,<BR>
<BR>
While our standard IHS subscription has its limits too, we also have access to their TDX (Tech Data Express) area - electronic pay per view or order hard copies on a per doc. basis. Our company was nice enough to set up a charge account so we don't have to hunt a credit card down when we want to order something. Not trying to plug IHS but this is a nice feature.<BR>
<BR>
Mike Sewell<BR>
LaBarge inc.</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 15:34:57 -0500
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Seth Goodman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Crimped connections
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Bill,
I agree with you on all of this. Perhaps my post wasn't clear. I was
giving reasons why one should _never_ solder a crimped connection. There
are crimped connections and there are soldered connections. Anything that
is both is generally a failure waiting to happen. The last part about
telling the design engineer (that's me) "Because" when he asked "Why" was me
just being a smart ass to this mostly production oriented forum. The line
about the 200 lb. Muskie was supposed to tip people off that I was kidding,
but I guess it didn't work. We do have some big Muskie's here in Wisconsin
(at least that's what some of my lying fisherman friends tell me; I've never
caught one), but they don't outweigh us.
You can post this if you think others may have been misled by my message.
Regards,
Seth Goodman
Goodman Associates, LLC
tel 608.833.9933
fax 608.833.9966
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Kasprzak, Bill (sys)
> USX
> Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 6:02 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Crimped connections
>
>
> Seth,
>
> I know I sound like a broken record but,
>
> crimping is just that, crimping. If you find it necessary to add solder or
> even compelled to add solder, then change your connection from a crimp
> design to a solder design. So, all these consequential results such as
> wicking causing loss of strain relief and the entrapment of flux cannot be
> part of the equation when the connection was designed to be
> crimped, period.
> I still maintain that if the connection that being made is supposed to be
> crimped, then crimp it and be done with it. No other secondary processes
> need to added. Otherwise, skip the crimping and just solder the wire. You
> should not do both.
>
> Bill Kasprzak
> Moog Inc. Manufacturing Engineering, Electronics
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Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 17:36:02 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: assembly spacing
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I have a component lead that is clinched on the bottom and the lead is almost
touching the surface of a conductor. Good old 001C says that the oreintation
of the clinch relative to any conductor is optional. However, it appears
that direction is causing the problem. Of course the assembly is conformal
coated and it is nearly impossible to determine the exact spacing from the
surface.
Are there other guidelines for this condition?
Thanks for any info
Susan Mansilla
Robisan Lab
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Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 16:43:23 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
[log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Dave Hillman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Looking for A Solderability Spec - No technical content
contained
X-To: [log in to unmask]
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Hi Mike! Thanks for the info - I don't think we have that option but I =
do
plan to investigate the potential of Collins adding it.
Dave Hillman
Rockwell Collins
[log in to unmask]
[log in to unmask]@ipc.org> on 05/20/2002 02:23:52 PM
Please respond to "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>; Please res=
pond
to [log in to unmask]
Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
cc:
Subject: Re: [TN] Looking for A Solderability Spec - No technical
content contained
Dave,
While our standard IHS subscription has its limits too, we also have ac=
cess
to their TDX (Tech Data Express) area - electronic pay per view or orde=
r
hard copies on a per doc. basis.=A0 Our company was nice enough to set =
up a
charge account so we don't have to hunt a credit card down when we want=
to
order something.=A0 Not trying to plug IHS but this is a nice feature.
Mike Sewell
LaBarge inc.
=
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Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 15:16:53 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Frank Kimmey <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Frank Kimmey <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Side fillet requirements
X-To: [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask]
X-cc: Evon Bennett <[log in to unmask]>, Mike Corrao <[log in to unmask]>
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I have a customer who would like us to justify why our IPC-782 compliant
footprints do not allow for a side fillet (pad width is equal to or smaller
than lead width). I did not find conclusive statement in IPC-610 concerning
this. Please help me define acceptance.
Thanks,
FNK
Frank N Kimmey, C.I.D.+
Senior PCB Designer
Powerwave Technologies
PH. 916-941-3159
Fax 916-941-3195
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Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 17:43:02 -0500
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Seth Goodman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Via Capacitance
X-To: [log in to unmask]
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Hi Marc,
The capacitance is only related to the surface areas of the two conductors
of the capacitor, the geometry separating them and the dielectric constant
of the material in between. Unless your board has lots of layers, most
people worry more about the via inductance than the capacitance. Going
smaller will increase the inductance. If it's a partial via and it's not
too long, there's not much to worry about. This can be calculated pretty
easily. One can also worry about the impedance discontinuity from the trace
to the via causing reflections. Fortunately, since the via actually ends in
the pad, the slight discontinuity and resulting reflection from the trace to
the via will be dwarfed by the discontinuity and reflection from the pad to
the device, which has an impedance mismatch that is orders of magnitude
worse, unless the device itself has carefully controlled impedance or the
signal continues through a passive device. Remember also that the
electrical length of the via is miniscule, so the two reflections will be
pretty much on top of each other. It's easy to miss the forest for the
trees.
Calculating the capacitance from a via to the (plane?) layers that it
penetrates is not as easy. However, if it was really essential, and I have
a hard time believing it is, you could maintain the same capacitance you had
with the previous via by selecting the via clearance properly.
Sorry if I seem cavalier about this. A via ending in a pad for an active
device generally makes the via a don't care in terms of electrical
properties. On the other hand, if the pad was for a balun, circulator or
other matching device and the signal continued on, then there is at least
some reason to worry about this.
Regards,
Seth Goodman
Goodman Associates, LLC
tel 608.833.9933
fax 608.833.9966
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of
> [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 4:58 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] Via Capacitance
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> With regards to how a vias capacitance varies with the finished hole size,
> is there a formula to calculate this? We intend to reduce the via
> dimensions
> from 10 mils to 8 mils on a via-in-pad via. The concern is that in RF
> circuits this has been used for a reason and we are getting kick
> back due to
> the concern that the capacitance of the via is being modified.
>
> Thanks for your help.
>
> Best regards
>
> Marc Cowen
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Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 21:58:17 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re Hole Fill
X-cc: [log in to unmask]
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Steve/Alcon:
- The only objective evidence that I have ever found is that which we
considered when developing the criteria for Rev. C of J-STD-001 and A-610.
That is in the form of tests of PTH integrity that were conducted by Roger
Wilde in the early & mid 70's. In one area he makes the statement "Another
PTH stress concentration that can reduce PTH reliability is partial solder
filling of the PTH's. The PTH condition may concentrate normal PTH
expansional stresses into a specific area of the PTH's, with a result of more
rapid 360 degree type PTH barrel crack propagation in severe thermal cycling.
Plated-through-hole barrel plating stresses are also increased when the MLB
is adhesively bonded to a stiffener or heat sink. This bonding prevents
normal MIB Z thickness expansion toward both surfaces of the MIB. In this
bonded configuration, the PTH's furthest away from the bonded surface will
experience higher thermal deflections and stresses."
- His tests included thermal cycling of PWB that had a controlled amount of
solder in each PTH. Solder fill was controlled to 0%, 25%, 50%, 75%, and
100%. In one section he notes that: "multiple joint failures were found
between 201 and 260 thermal cycles, all failures (fractured solder joints)
were only on connectors with 0% PTH solder penetration (capped solder
joints). Although cracking was significant, there were no failures with at
least 25% solder penetration (0.035" PTH solder plug)."
- Reading his reports one is compelled to conclude that solder fill of 25% or
more will be acceptable for PWA's in all but the most thermally challenging
environments.
- I think that this series of reports (including the Colin Lea report that
approves of blowholes and voids) can be downloaded from the IPC FTP site.
- I suspect (fervently hope) that PWB fabrication technology has improved
since the mid 70's and that PWB's fabricated today have less Z-axis Tce (or
Cte) and better control over the elongation and elasticity of copper
deposition. Is it time for someone to run a series of tests with newer board
material and determine that we have been over-specifying PTH solder
connections for years.
Regards, Jim Moffitt
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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 13:33:32 +0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Conformal coating BGAs
X-To: Linda Woody <[log in to unmask]>
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Linda,
I woud be interested to see the information you have that says underfilling
a BGA with Conformal Coating reduces life cycle. I epoxy underfill BGA's at
present, but there are mutterings from bean counters, etc about this extra
process, and why can't we just underfill with coating? I have argued about
his, but from a rather hypothetical standpoint - comparative thermal
conduction properties of the two materials, ease of rework of my underfill
versus difficulty in removing parts stuck down with coating, stated
improved life of BGA joints using epoxy versus "I expect coating underfill
to have no beneficial effect on life cycle". I've had no words of wisdom to
back up my wanting to keep epoxy underfilling and my rejecting coating
underfilling.
I suspect the reason for reducing life cycle is if the coating underneath
the component is thick and hasn't cured properly - after all, it's supposed
to be a thin coating, not a thick filler. The chemisty of uncured coating
is bound to be different from that of cured stuff. Perhaps Graham N. or
Brian E. can step in at this point (?).
Peter
Linda Woody <[log in to unmask]> 20/05/2002 11:53 PM
Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
Please respond to "TechNet E-Mail Forum."; Please respond to Linda Woody
To: [log in to unmask]
cc: (bcc: DUNCAN Peter/Asst Prin Engr/ST Aero/ST Group)
Subject: [TN] Conformal coating BGAs
I am searching for any data out in the industry referencing the affects
of conformal coatings on BGA devices? How much coating should be allowed
under the device? Should the underside of the BGA be completely dammed or
underfilled? I have collected data that shows standard spraying of coating
material does not affect life cycle, but allowing complete underfill of the
coating material greatly reduces life cycle. What concerns are there for
leaving exposed adjacent uncoated conductors (BGA balls) under the BGA
devices?
Regards,
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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 13:41:17 +0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Side fillet requirements
X-To: Frank Kimmey <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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No side fillets are usually found on fine-pitch QFP's and the like, where
really there isn't the room to have pads wider than the leads without an
attendant risk of solder bridging. If you have a class 2 product, side
fillets aren't an issue. For class 3, we have to grin and bear it. Toe and
Heel fillets are the important fellows when considering solder joint
strength.
Peter
Frank Kimmey <[log in to unmask]> 21/05/2002 06:16 AM
Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
Please respond to "TechNet E-Mail Forum."; Please respond to Frank Kimmey
To: [log in to unmask]
cc: (bcc: DUNCAN Peter/Asst Prin Engr/ST Aero/ST Group)
Subject: [TN] Side fillet requirements
I have a customer who would like us to justify why our IPC-782 compliant
footprints do not allow for a side fillet (pad width is equal to or smaller
than lead width). I did not find conclusive statement in IPC-610 concerning
this. Please help me define acceptance.
Thanks,
FNK
Frank N Kimmey, C.I.D.+
Senior PCB Designer
Powerwave Technologies
PH. 916-941-3159
Fax 916-941-3195
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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 07:24:55 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Rick <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Rick <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: (Fwd) Inquiry on maximum temperature
MIME-Version: 1.0
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------- Forwarded message follows -------
Date sent: Mon, 20 May 2002 13:42:16 -0700
From: Dino Accoto <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Inquiry on maximum temperature
Dear Sir,
I am working at the RPL lab - Stanford University, on a project
aimed at the fabrication of a microvalve. One of the possible
technologies to fabricate the body of the valve is PCB. Is there any
available data about which maximum temperature a PCB can operate at for
a long time so that no appreciable deformation/material damage occur?
Thanks in advance for your information,
Dino Accoto
Rick Babyak
Process Engineer
Proto Circuit Inc.
7 Ascot Parkway
Cuyahoga Falls, OH 44223
330-572-3400
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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 20:26:00 +0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Repair/Mod pads
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Anyone know a source for 0603 and 0805 "Stick-on" component pads? A number
of our development boards require mods (don't they always), which often
involves adding extra passive components that weren't anticipated during
the original board routing. Rather than have loads of epoxy bonding down
the extra parts, I want to try using proper pads that I can solder to. I
know they're out there somewhere.
Supplementary question: these pads are usually fitted to a board using a
bonding press or bonding iron. Can anyone clue me in on techniques for
using these things to fit said pads? Or can they be fitted with less
specialised tools, normally found in an assembly shop?
Terribly grateful as ever for a share of the group know-how.
Peter
[This e-mail is confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the
intended recipient, please delete it and notify us immediately; you should
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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 07:36:56 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Mel Parrish <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Mel Parrish <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Side fillet requirements
X-To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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The 610C document does not require a fillet to the side of the lead, even
for Class 3.
Remember that Class 3 also allows side overhang and toe overhang. As a
shocking example, Figure 12-71, page 12-46 illustrates an acceptable
condition for all classes. Heel fillets are still required as well as a
properly wetted fillet under the lead.
Call me if I can explain the content further.
Best regards,
Mel Parrish
Director of Training
Soldering Technology International
102 Tribble Drive
Madison, AL 35758
256 705 5530
256 705 5538 Fax
[log in to unmask]
www.solderingtech.com
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of
[log in to unmask]
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 12:41 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Side fillet requirements
No side fillets are usually found on fine-pitch QFP's and the like, where
really there isn't the room to have pads wider than the leads without an
attendant risk of solder bridging. If you have a class 2 product, side
fillets aren't an issue. For class 3, we have to grin and bear it. Toe and
Heel fillets are the important fellows when considering solder joint
strength.
Peter
Frank Kimmey <[log in to unmask]> 21/05/2002 06:16 AM
Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
Please respond to "TechNet E-Mail Forum."; Please respond to Frank Kimmey
To: [log in to unmask]
cc: (bcc: DUNCAN Peter/Asst Prin Engr/ST Aero/ST Group)
Subject: [TN] Side fillet requirements
I have a customer who would like us to justify why our IPC-782 compliant
footprints do not allow for a side fillet (pad width is equal to or smaller
than lead width). I did not find conclusive statement in IPC-610 concerning
this. Please help me define acceptance.
Thanks,
FNK
Frank N Kimmey, C.I.D.+
Senior PCB Designer
Powerwave Technologies
PH. 916-941-3159
Fax 916-941-3195
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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 08:57:56 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Guy Ramsey <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Guy Ramsey <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Side fillet requirements
X-To: Frank Kimmey <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Something is wrong. What type of component are we discussing? Side joint
requirments are specific to component types.
If there is a compliant land pattern that is narrower than the lead width it
would be new to me.
I have seen "compliant design" reduced by undercut resulting land patterns
like you describe.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Frank Kimmey
> Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 6:17 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] Side fillet requirements
>
>
> I have a customer who would like us to justify why our IPC-782 compliant
> footprints do not allow for a side fillet (pad width is equal to
> or smaller
> than lead width). I did not find conclusive statement in IPC-610
> concerning
> this. Please help me define acceptance.
>
> Thanks,
> FNK
>
> Frank N Kimmey, C.I.D.+
> Senior PCB Designer
> Powerwave Technologies
> PH. 916-941-3159
> Fax 916-941-3195
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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 06:58:48 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Barry Gallegos <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Barry Gallegos <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: assembly spacing
X-To: "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Susan,
Take a look in IPC-A-610 on page 5-17,
paragraph 5.2.7.2 Mounting - Wire/Lead Termination-
Printed Board - Clinched.
It may give you some insight.
Barry.
-----Original Message-----
From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 3:36 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] assembly spacing
I have a component lead that is clinched on the bottom and the lead is
almost
touching the surface of a conductor. Good old 001C says that the
oreintation
of the clinch relative to any conductor is optional. However, it appears
that direction is causing the problem. Of course the assembly is conformal
coated and it is nearly impossible to determine the exact spacing from the
surface.
Are there other guidelines for this condition?
Thanks for any info
Susan Mansilla
Robisan Lab
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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 08:05:03 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
[log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Conformal coating BGAs
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Peter,
We have research papers here at Rockwell from 1990, stemming from an
incident we lovingly call "The Great Post Coat Massacre of 1990", which
show conclusively that conformal coating mascarading as an underfill is a
REALLY bad idea. Unfortunately, I cannot release that paper to the public.
Since you cure from the outside in, underfilling a component with conformal
coating means you will have entrapped solvent in the centermost portion of
the component. Bad karma there. You do not get a uniform material that is
uniformly cured throughout the bulk, as you do with an underfill.
Doug Pauls
Rockwell Collins
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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 09:02:37 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Linda Langley <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Linda Langley <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Repair/Mod pads
X-To: "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>
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Peter, The IPC-7721 has the procedure for pad removal and replacement.
Excellent instructions.
The pads and traces can be purchesed from Circuit Technology, Haverhill, MA.
Hope this helps.
Linda
-----Original Message-----
From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 8:26 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Repair/Mod pads
Anyone know a source for 0603 and 0805 "Stick-on" component pads? A number
of our development boards require mods (don't they always), which often
involves adding extra passive components that weren't anticipated during
the original board routing. Rather than have loads of epoxy bonding down
the extra parts, I want to try using proper pads that I can solder to. I
know they're out there somewhere.
Supplementary question: these pads are usually fitted to a board using a
bonding press or bonding iron. Can anyone clue me in on techniques for
using these things to fit said pads? Or can they be fitted with less
specialised tools, normally found in an assembly shop?
Terribly grateful as ever for a share of the group know-how.
Peter
[This e-mail is confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the
intended recipient, please delete it and notify us immediately; you should
not copy or use it for any purpose, nor disclose its contents to any other
person. Thank you.]
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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 09:32:55 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Phil Nutting <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Phil Nutting <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Keeping RA and OA flux separate
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Good morning,
Assuming that both RA (or RMA) and OA flux solders are needed (or used) =
in the assembly process, by what means do you keep them marked or used =
only on the correct applications? We are a small facility so more than =
likely some assemblers will need both types at their bench.
Thanks in advance,
Phil Nutting
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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 09:49:18 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Guy Ramsey <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Guy Ramsey <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: assembly spacing
X-To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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If the clinch, or solder fillet formed on the lead, violates minimum
electrical spacing it is a defect. The short story is that the space needs
to be more than .13mm for applications with less than 100 volts between the
lead and the conductor when the assembly is coated as you have described.
Assuming a PTH, the lead clinch should be partial, only enough to retain the
component during handling prior to soldering (between 15°and 45°). The lead
clinch should not extend beyond the diameter of the anular ring around the
hole. The PTH diameter must be specified to allow the assembly process to
meet these requirements. The PTH diameter should be between 0.2mm and 0.7mm
greater than the lead diameter. The closer to 0.2mm the less trouble with
clinch and the more trouble with auto insertion.
Some designs create problems by using very small rings and placing
non-common conductors in close proximity to the undersized rings. In the old
days, only a few years back, I specified dry film solder mask on board
desings that had such compromises. That may not be possible today, dry film
photo imagable mask is not popular and most fabricators are not maintaining
the equipment needed to apply the mask.
Wish I could be more help.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 5:36 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] assembly spacing
>
>
> I have a component lead that is clinched on the bottom and the
> lead is almost
> touching the surface of a conductor. Good old 001C says that the
> oreintation
> of the clinch relative to any conductor is optional. However, it appears
> that direction is causing the problem. Of course the assembly is
> conformal
> coated and it is nearly impossible to determine the exact spacing from the
> surface.
>
> Are there other guidelines for this condition?
>
> Thanks for any info
> Susan Mansilla
> Robisan Lab
>
>
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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 10:15:31 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"WEEKES, MICHAEL HS-SNS" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "WEEKES, MICHAEL HS-SNS" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: board baking
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Years ago, at Raytheon , we used to bake PWBs prior to soldering. Over 18
yrs I have seen this trend fade away and good riddance, too.
I recently joined a company who maintains board bake - manufacturing hates
it, but there is one very legitimate expert who still promotes it. I'm
looking for help / evidence or reports/data that justify the elimination of
this non-value added step. I thought, especially after attending a great
IPC session by mike Carano, that if boards are properly fabricated and
sealed, air tight in a bag, prior to shipment to the user (soldering
company/assembly house) they'd be good, as long as they remain bagged up to
point of use.
please offer suggestions/solutions.
thanks,
Mike`
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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 10:43:43 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Guy Ramsey <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Guy Ramsey <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Repair/Mod pads
X-To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Circuit Technology Center and Techni-tool have what you are looking for. I
think there is a little how to vido on the Circuit Technology Center web
site, under the guidebook checkout chapter 4.
http://www.circuittechctr.com/guides/4-0.htm
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of
> [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 8:26 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] Repair/Mod pads
>
>
> Anyone know a source for 0603 and 0805 "Stick-on" component pads? A number
> of our development boards require mods (don't they always), which often
> involves adding extra passive components that weren't anticipated during
> the original board routing. Rather than have loads of epoxy bonding down
> the extra parts, I want to try using proper pads that I can solder to. I
> know they're out there somewhere.
>
> Supplementary question: these pads are usually fitted to a board using a
> bonding press or bonding iron. Can anyone clue me in on techniques for
> using these things to fit said pads? Or can they be fitted with less
> specialised tools, normally found in an assembly shop?
>
> Terribly grateful as ever for a share of the group know-how.
>
> Peter
>
> [This e-mail is confidential and may also be privileged. If you
> are not the
> intended recipient, please delete it and notify us immediately; you should
> not copy or use it for any purpose, nor disclose its contents to any other
> person. Thank you.]
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
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> 847-509-9700 ext.5315
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------
>
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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 10:49:24 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Jeff Ferry <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Jeff Ferry <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Repair/Mod pads
X-To: "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>
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Peter,
I can suggest a procedure including links to the materials. Go to:
http://www.circuittechctr.com/guides/4-7-2.htm. This procedure covers
replacing a damaged surface mount pad. The process for adding a new pad is
essentially the same.
This procedure uses new dry film adhesive backed pads, no liquid epoxy
needed, that are bonded to the circuit board with a bonding press, or simple
hand held bonding iron. The tips used to bond these new pads in place are
made from aluminum and are flat on the bottom. You may be able to put them
in soldering tools you have in you shop, but you really can't use standard
soldering iron tips. If your application is a mod, you'll want to remove any
solder mask from the board surface where the new pads will be bonded.
Jeff Ferry
CEO
Circuit Technology Center, Inc.
http://www.circuittechctr.com
[log in to unmask]
978-374-5000
Sign up for our Free E-mail Newsletter at:
http://www.circuittechctr.com/general/free_email.htm
-----Original Message-----
From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 8:26 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Repair/Mod pads
Anyone know a source for 0603 and 0805 "Stick-on" component pads? A number
of our development boards require mods (don't they always), which often
involves adding extra passive components that weren't anticipated during
the original board routing. Rather than have loads of epoxy bonding down
the extra parts, I want to try using proper pads that I can solder to. I
know they're out there somewhere.
Supplementary question: these pads are usually fitted to a board using a
bonding press or bonding iron. Can anyone clue me in on techniques for
using these things to fit said pads? Or can they be fitted with less
specialised tools, normally found in an assembly shop?
Terribly grateful as ever for a share of the group know-how.
Peter
[This e-mail is confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the
intended recipient, please delete it and notify us immediately; you should
not copy or use it for any purpose, nor disclose its contents to any other
person. Thank you.]
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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 10:51:19 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Werner Engelmaier <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Conformal coating BGAs
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hi Peter,
When you 'underfill' with conformal coating you fill the gap between the BGA
and the PWB; just look up the CTE of some of the conformal coating materials,
and you KNOW why it is a bad idea.
Werner Engelmaier
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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 10:51:22 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Werner Engelmaier <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Re Hole Fill
X-To: [log in to unmask]
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hi Jim,
>- The only objective evidence that I have ever found is that which we
>considered when developing the criteria for Rev. C of J-STD-001 and A-610.
Item 1: >That is in the form of tests of PTH integrity that were conducted by
Roger
>Wild in the early & mid 70's. In one area he makes the statement "Another
>PTH stress concentration that can reduce PTH reliability is partial solder
>filling of the PTH's. The PTH condition may concentrate normal PTH
>expansional stresses into a specific area of the PTH's, with a result of more
>rapid 360 degree type PTH barrel crack propagation in severe thermal cycling.
>Plated-through-hole barrel plating stresses are also increased when the MLB
>is adhesively bonded to a stiffener or heat sink. This bonding prevents
>normal MLB z-thickness expansion toward both surfaces of the MLB. In this
>bonded configuration, the PTH's furthest away from the bonded surface will
>experience higher thermal deflections and stresses."
>His tests included thermal cycling of PWB that had a controlled amount of
>solder in each PTH. Solder fill was controlled to 0%, 25%, 50%, 75%, and
100%.
Comment: Roger's observations are as true today as then. I have consulted on
a number of such failures. They do occur in the more severe field
environments, such as industrial, military, and automotive. I have not seen
it in telecommunications or computers.
Item 2: >In one section he notes that: "multiple joint failures were found
>between 201 and 260 thermal cycles, all failures (fractured solder joints)
>were only on connectors with 0% PTH solder penetration (capped solder
>joints). Although cracking was significant, there were no failures with
>at least 25% solder penetration (0.035" PTH solder plug)."
Comment: Roger's observations pertain to the solder joints involved, not the
PTVs.
Item3: >- Reading his reports one is compelled to conclude that solder fill
of 25% or
>more will be acceptable for PWA's in all but the most thermally challenging
>environments.
Comment: This conclusion is NOT warranted in this form. The solder joints
will be acceptable--this means that single-sided boards with unsupported
holes should essentially be called Class 0 [zero]--but he PTH is not for the
more severe, not just "the most thermally challenging" environments
Item 4: >- I think that this series of reports (including the Colin Lea
report that
>approves of blowholes and voids) can be downloaded from the IPC FTP site.
Comment: I am in Hong Kong right now, so I can not look up Colin's report to
see the context.
Item 5: >- I suspect (fervently hope) that PWB fabrication technology has
improved
>since the mid 70's and that PWB's fabricated today have less z-axis CTE
>and better control over the elongation and elasticity of copper deposition.
>Is it time for someone to run a series of tests with newer board
>material and determine that we have been over-specifying PTH solder
>connections for years.
Comment: While Cu plating technology has improved it was in response to
smaller via diameters and thicker PWBs. Thus, as far as Cu strength and
ductility in the holes nothing much has changed. Higher Tg's have helped,
however.
Werner Engelmaier
Engelmaier Associates, L.C.
Electronic Packaging, Interconnection and Reliability Consulting
7 Jasmine Run
Ormond Beach, FL 32174 USA
Phone: 386-437-8747, Fax: 386-437-8737
E-mail: [log in to unmask], Website: www.engelmaier.com
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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 10:15:20 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Neda Thrash <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Neda Thrash <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Repair/Mod pads
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Peter, go to www.circuitnet.com for the procedure, part # and a list of dis=
tributers for ordering the parts. The hand-held bonding iron ( around $50) =
works very well with the proper size tip (sold separately).=20
Neda Thrash
Thrash & Associates
Industrial Training & Certification
[log in to unmask]
Voice mail (601) 486-1700
Fax (601) 486-1770
>>> [log in to unmask] 05/21/02 07:26AM >>>
Anyone know a source for 0603 and 0805 "Stick-on" component pads? A number
of our development boards require mods (don't they always), which often
involves adding extra passive components that weren't anticipated during
the original board routing. Rather than have loads of epoxy bonding down
the extra parts, I want to try using proper pads that I can solder to. I
know they're out there somewhere.
Supplementary question: these pads are usually fitted to a board using a
bonding press or bonding iron. Can anyone clue me in on techniques for
using these things to fit said pads? Or can they be fitted with less
specialised tools, normally found in an assembly shop?
Terribly grateful as ever for a share of the group know-how.
Peter
[This e-mail is confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the
intended recipient, please delete it and notify us immediately; you should
not copy or use it for any purpose, nor disclose its contents to any other
person. Thank you.]
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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 18:18:41 +0300
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Brian Ellis <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Brian Ellis <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Keeping RA and OA flux separate
X-To: Phil Nutting <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Phil
You touch on an essential point without a ready-made answer. Perhaps one
would be to stick a small coloured disc or a blob of paint on the
incoming PCBs that will be soldered with w/s flux and subsequently
washed. The colour should be the same as that of the w/s flux itself: no
colour match, no use! If the disc/paint happens to be water-soluble,
then you have a check that it has been washed, as well!
More reliable is to separate the production lines physically, but
probably less practical.
FWIW
Brian
Phil Nutting wrote:
>
> Good morning,
>
> Assuming that both RA (or RMA) and OA flux solders are needed (or used) in the assembly process, by what means do you keep them marked or used only on the correct applications? We are a small facility so more than likely some assemblers will need both types at their bench.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Phil Nutting
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 08:25:32 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Frank Kimmey <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Frank Kimmey <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Side fillet requirements
X-To: Guy Ramsey <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Guy,
These are micro8 and sop packages, 25 mil pitch.
Leads may be up to 18 mils wide, while land is only 13 mils (nominal lead
width).
All I have found so far are requirements that do not say a side fillet is
req'd. I would like to find a standard that states a side fillet is not
required.
Thanks for the help,
FNK
Hey Steve,
If you are watching, what is your take on side fillets?
How do you interpret IPC-610 figure 12-71?
Earl,
comments?
Werner,
What loss in integrity and/or reliability is caused by no side fillet?
Thanks to Peter and Gary for your replies, they are reinforcing my case.
Frank N Kimmey, C.I.D.+
Senior PCB Designer
Powerwave Technologies
PH. 916-941-3159
Fax 916-941-3195
-----Original Message-----
From: Guy Ramsey [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 5:58 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Side fillet requirements
Something is wrong. What type of component are we discussing? Side joint
requirments are specific to component types.
If there is a compliant land pattern that is narrower than the lead width it
would be new to me.
I have seen "compliant design" reduced by undercut resulting land patterns
like you describe.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Frank Kimmey
> Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 6:17 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] Side fillet requirements
>
>
> I have a customer who would like us to justify why our IPC-782 compliant
> footprints do not allow for a side fillet (pad width is equal to
> or smaller
> than lead width). I did not find conclusive statement in IPC-610
> concerning
> this. Please help me define acceptance.
>
> Thanks,
> FNK
>
> Frank N Kimmey, C.I.D.+
> Senior PCB Designer
> Powerwave Technologies
> PH. 916-941-3159
> Fax 916-941-3195
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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 11:29:37 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Hinners Hans M Civ WRALC/LUGE <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Hinners Hans M Civ WRALC/LUGE <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: board baking
X-To: "WEEKES, MICHAEL HS-SNS" <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi Mike,
Sounds like you need to d a little test between bake & no bake and convince
everyone it's okay. We had to do that on the bare board side to stop the
debate.
Hans
-----Original Message-----
From: WEEKES, MICHAEL HS-SNS [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 10:16 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] board baking
Years ago, at Raytheon , we used to bake PWBs prior to soldering. Over 18
yrs I have seen this trend fade away and good riddance, too.
I recently joined a company who maintains board bake - manufacturing hates
it, but there is one very legitimate expert who still promotes it. I'm
looking for help / evidence or reports/data that justify the elimination of
this non-value added step. I thought, especially after attending a great
IPC session by mike Carano, that if boards are properly fabricated and
sealed, air tight in a bag, prior to shipment to the user (soldering
company/assembly house) they'd be good, as long as they remain bagged up to
point of use.
please offer suggestions/solutions.
thanks,
Mike`
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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 12:27:46 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Gold Reclaim
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Technetters,
I am looking for a credible company
that can reclaim the gold from plated thieving
scraps.
Thanks for your help.
Brett Austin
Nationwide Ccircuits, Inc.
The early bird catches the worm,
but the second mouse gets the cheese.
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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 09:55:57 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Greg Scott <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Cray Inc
Subject: Re: Side fillet requirements
X-To: Frank Kimmey <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Frank,
it is not really a standard document you need, it is sometimes driven
by design practices. If you require a soldermask dam between 25 mil pitch parts, then:
1. Minimum soldermask dams are 4 to 5 mils (use to be 6 mils, check with your fabshop)
2. Most design rules you grow your soldermask opening by 3 mils per side of copper pad.
So that adds up to 6 mils + 5 mil solder mask dam = 11 mils.
3. Remove 11 mils from 25 mils and you get 14 mils maximum copper pad width.
We did a quick internal study on actual component lead widths (parts from stock) versus the
manufactures part drawing.
Even though maximum width is like you say 18 mils, we never found any that were that wide. All were
darn close to nominal,
I believe plus 1 mil tolerance, none narrower.
This is what I would use to explain to your customer why side fillet is usually not required and some
cases not achievable.
If you do not require soldermask dams and are not routing on external layer between pins then give them
side fillet.
I do not think a 18 mil pad and a 13 mil lead width will create soldering problems for the assembly
shop.
Greg Scott
Cray Inc.
Frank Kimmey wrote:
> Guy,
> These are micro8 and sop packages, 25 mil pitch.
> Leads may be up to 18 mils wide, while land is only 13 mils (nominal lead
> width).
>
> All I have found so far are requirements that do not say a side fillet is
> req'd. I would like to find a standard that states a side fillet is not
> required.
>
> Thanks for the help,
> FNK
>
> Hey Steve,
> If you are watching, what is your take on side fillets?
> How do you interpret IPC-610 figure 12-71?
>
> Earl,
> comments?
>
> Werner,
> What loss in integrity and/or reliability is caused by no side fillet?
>
> Thanks to Peter and Gary for your replies, they are reinforcing my case.
>
> Frank N Kimmey, C.I.D.+
> Senior PCB Designer
> Powerwave Technologies
> PH. 916-941-3159
> Fax 916-941-3195
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Guy Ramsey [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 5:58 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Side fillet requirements
>
> Something is wrong. What type of component are we discussing? Side joint
> requirments are specific to component types.
>
> If there is a compliant land pattern that is narrower than the lead width it
> would be new to me.
>
> I have seen "compliant design" reduced by undercut resulting land patterns
> like you describe.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Frank Kimmey
> > Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 6:17 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: [TN] Side fillet requirements
> >
> >
> > I have a customer who would like us to justify why our IPC-782 compliant
> > footprints do not allow for a side fillet (pad width is equal to
> > or smaller
> > than lead width). I did not find conclusive statement in IPC-610
> > concerning
> > this. Please help me define acceptance.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > FNK
> >
> > Frank N Kimmey, C.I.D.+
> > Senior PCB Designer
> > Powerwave Technologies
> > PH. 916-941-3159
> > Fax 916-941-3195
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----
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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 11:22:20 -0700
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: David Ricketts <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Side fillet requirements
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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In the very early days of surface mount, most footprints allowed for side
fillets to improve solderability. But there were so many problems with
components being skewed and tombstoning during reflow, the most reliable fix
was to remove the side fillet requirement. Now if your customer is
hand-soldering every component, or is epoxying every component in place
before solder, side fillets may have some justification, but beyond that,
tell your customer it is in their best interest to listen to your advice.
Isn't that why they pay you the big bucks?
David Ricketts
Pertek Engineering
Voice: 949-475-4485
Fax: 949-475-4493
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Frank Kimmey
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 3:17 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Side fillet requirements
I have a customer who would like us to justify why our IPC-782 compliant
footprints do not allow for a side fillet (pad width is equal to or smaller
than lead width). I did not find conclusive statement in IPC-610 concerning
this. Please help me define acceptance.
Thanks,
FNK
Frank N Kimmey, C.I.D.+
Senior PCB Designer
Powerwave Technologies
PH. 916-941-3159
Fax 916-941-3195
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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 15:00:27 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Houston, Terri" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Houston, Terri" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Looking for a capacitance meter
Hi Folks,
I'm searching for a "cost effective" capacitance meter to use for measuring
chip capacitors.
Seems the low-end designs have probes that won't work well with small size
parts, and the high-end models have more bells and whistles than we need.
I'm just looking for something to verify cap values for parts that become
separated from their labeled bags.
If you could offer any advice on models that would fit the bill, I'd
appreciate your input.
Thanks,
Terri
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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 16:25:34 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
tony steinke <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: tony steinke <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: high Tg FR4
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0025_01C200E4.222FD9E0"
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C200E4.222FD9E0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Guru's
Our current laminate supplier(whom will go unnamed) claims
that they can provide an FR4 glass material that will exceed
250 Tg by means of TMA/DSC testing per IPC TM650. They can accomplish =
this by a "special resin system". They have provided results, but when =
sent to secondary source the results are totally different. Is there =
such a resin system
available in FR4 or am I being fed a bunch of BS.
Thanks for any/all responses
Tony Steinke
------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C200E4.222FD9E0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Guru's</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Our current laminate supplier(whom will =
go unnamed)=20
claims</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>that they can provide an FR4 glass =
material that=20
will exceed</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>250 Tg by means of TMA/DSC =
testing per=20
IPC TM650. They can accomplish this by a "special resin system". They =
have=20
provided results, but when sent to secondary source the results are =
totally=20
different. Is there such a resin system</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>available in FR4 or am I being fed a =
bunch of=20
BS.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks for any/all =
responses</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Tony Steinke</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 09:32:55 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Phil Nutting <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Phil Nutting <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Keeping RA and OA flux separate
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Good morning,
Assuming that both RA (or RMA) and OA flux solders are needed (or used) =
in the assembly process, by what means do you keep them marked or used =
only on the correct applications? We are a small facility so more than =
likely some assemblers will need both types at their bench.
Thanks in advance,
Phil Nutting
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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 21:40:08 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Graham Naisbitt <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Graham Naisbitt <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Conformal coating BGAs
X-To: [log in to unmask]
X-cc: Phil Kinner <[log in to unmask]>,
Leigh Janzen <[log in to unmask]>
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Peter, Linda et al (whoever he/she/is?) :-)
I have a study completed by IVF in 1988, regarding the influence of
conformal coatings to the reduction in lead pad fracturing by >80%.
I may be able to send you copies but, if Per-Erik Tegehall has his
TechNet eyes open, maybe he can enlighten me to the availability of this
study. Let me know please.
With specific regard to BGA underfill, and with due recognition of SIR
Doug's posting, I think it might be feasible to utilise some of the
newer coating formulations - e.g. water based - that may do a very
acceptable job in one operation. Curing will be an important criterion
that requires proper control as Doug says.
If you would care to assist me, I will be willing to receive your
samples here, coat them using production methodology and return them for
test evaluation FOC. Let me know please?
Regards Graham Naisbitt
[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Concoat ANNOUNCE their acquisition of the former Multicore SPCID
business.
MUST II Solderability Testing Systems -
CM Cleanliness Testing Systems -
Auto-SIR Reliability Testing Systems -
SoldaPro & NEW SoldaPro Wizard Thermal Profilers
For more information please visit our new web site:
www.concoatsystems.com <http://www.concoatsystems.com>
Concoat Limited
Alasan House, Albany Park
Camberley GU16 7PH - UK
www.concoat.co.uk <http://www.concoat.co.uk>
Phone: +44 1276 691100
Fax: +44 1276 691227
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
> [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 06:34
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Conformal coating BGAs
>
>
> Linda,
>
> I woud be interested to see the information you have that
> says underfilling a BGA with Conformal Coating reduces life
> cycle. I epoxy underfill BGA's at present, but there are
> mutterings from bean counters, etc about this extra process,
> and why can't we just underfill with coating? I have argued
> about his, but from a rather hypothetical standpoint -
> comparative thermal conduction properties of the two
> materials, ease of rework of my underfill versus difficulty
> in removing parts stuck down with coating, stated improved
> life of BGA joints using epoxy versus "I expect coating
> underfill to have no beneficial effect on life cycle". I've
> had no words of wisdom to back up my wanting to keep epoxy
> underfilling and my rejecting coating underfilling.
>
> I suspect the reason for reducing life cycle is if the
> coating underneath the component is thick and hasn't cured
> properly - after all, it's supposed to be a thin coating, not
> a thick filler. The chemisty of uncured coating is bound to
> be different from that of cured stuff. Perhaps Graham N. or
> Brian E. can step in at this point (?).
>
> Peter
>
>
>
> Linda Woody <[log in to unmask]> 20/05/2002 11:53 PM
> Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
>
> Please respond to "TechNet E-Mail Forum."; Please respond to
> Linda Woody
>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> cc: (bcc: DUNCAN Peter/Asst Prin Engr/ST Aero/ST Group)
> Subject: [TN] Conformal coating BGAs
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I am searching for any data out in the industry referencing
> the affects of conformal coatings on BGA devices? How much
> coating should be allowed under the device? Should the
> underside of the BGA be completely dammed or underfilled? I
> have collected data that shows standard spraying of coating
> material does not affect life cycle, but allowing complete
> underfill of the coating material greatly reduces life cycle.
> What concerns are there for leaving exposed adjacent uncoated
> conductors (BGA balls) under the BGA devices?
>
> Regards,
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> -------------------
>
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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 16:12:10 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Kathy Kuhlow <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Kathy Kuhlow <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Keeping RA and OA flux separate
Mime-Version: 1.0
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consider changing to a mail reader or gateway that understands how to
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Clear flux usage instructions and color coded bottles are some of the best =
practices I have seen. And lots of training and communication to the =
operators on the importance of the flux and correct usage. =20
Kathy=20
--=_5A07815C.8EEF821C
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<DIV>Clear flux usage instructions and color coded bottles are some of the best
practices I have seen. And lots of training and communication to the
operators on the importance of the flux and correct usage. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Kathy </DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 17:22:50 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
[log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Dave Hillman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Conformal coating BGAs
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Hi Peter and TechNet Land! I can add a bit of science to Doug's reply which
may help clear up the picture a bit. One of the lessons we have learned the
hard way (e.g. Doug's reference to the Great PostCoat Massacre) is that
under standard/normal/typical conformal coating conditions/processing,
conformal coating neither adds to nor statistically improves the solder
joint thermal cycle fatigue life. However, the Z dimension CTE
characteristics of a conformal coating can be significantly different than
the X and Y dimension CTE characteristics. If you take an acrylic conformal
coating and intentionally force the material to underfill the BGA you will
have the conformal coating literally "push" the BGA away from the pwa. In
addition to this mechanical issue, you also have Doug's issue of trapped
solvent under the BGA leading to corrosion problems. Hope this adds to the
discussion.
Dave Hillman (is it CTE or TCE?)
Rockwell Collins
[log in to unmask]
[log in to unmask]@ipc.org> on 05/21/2002 08:05:03 AM
Please respond to "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>; Please respond
to [log in to unmask]
Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
cc:
Subject: Re: [TN] Conformal coating BGAs
Peter,
We have research papers here at Rockwell from 1990, stemming from an
incident we lovingly call "The Great Post Coat Massacre of 1990", which
show conclusively that conformal coating mascarading as an underfill is a
REALLY bad idea. Unfortunately, I cannot release that paper to the public.
Since you cure from the outside in, underfilling a component with conformal
coating means you will have entrapped solvent in the centermost portion of
the component. Bad karma there. You do not get a uniform material that is
uniformly cured throughout the bulk, as you do with an underfill.
Doug Pauls
Rockwell Collins
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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 16:21:01 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Dan R. Johnson" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Dan R. Johnson" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Looking for a capacitance meter
X-To: "Houston, Terri" <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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Terri,
You might try getting a set of "tweezer probes" or micro probes for your
low end meter. I have also used microclips/micrograbbers and sewing needles,
and ground standard probes to a fine point. Make sure you get a meter that
allows you to "cal" out the probes (forget this if you use sewing needles).
You might also look on the used equipment market for a high end used unit,
seems there is a lot of surplus equipment available of late, just make sure
you can get the probes/fixtures for the unit. Older HP LCZ meters are easy
to use, Stanford Research also makes (made?) a pretty good unit.
Hope my rambles are of use,
Dan
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Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 09:22:27 +0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Conformal coating BGAs
X-To: [log in to unmask]
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Thanks, Uncle W.
Peter
Werner Engelmaier <[log in to unmask]> 21/05/2002 10:51 PM
Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
Please respond to "TechNet E-Mail Forum."; Please respond to Engelmaier
To: [log in to unmask]
cc: (bcc: DUNCAN Peter/Asst Prin Engr/ST Aero/ST Group)
Subject: Re: [TN] Conformal coating BGAs
Hi Peter,
When you 'underfill' with conformal coating you fill the gap between the
BGA
and the PWB; just look up the CTE of some of the conformal coating
materials,
and you KNOW why it is a bad idea.
Werner Engelmaier
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Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 13:22:43 +0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: AM79C970AVIW Ethernet Controller IC
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Hi, everyone,
I want, after all this time, to give a big vote of thanks to all those who
helped me in my search for an obsolete Industrial AMD part. I had a number
of leads, but in the end, I was found I was chasing mirages - just when I
thought I had maybe found a source, the parts turned out to be commercial
grade, which are no use to me.
So I am forced into the position of finding a reliable up-screening house
to get me industrial rated components from the available commercial parts.
Can anyone help to suggest a good up-screening house? I hope I have found
one already, but just in case ....
Best regards
Peter
[This e-mail is confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the
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Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 04:16:00 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Werner Engelmaier <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Conformal coating BGAs
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hi Dave Hillman (is it CTE or TCE?),
CTE is correct, TCE is not. CTE stands for coefficient of thermal expansion,
which in itself is improper, bercause technically correct it should be
'linear coefficient of thermal expansion'. If it were TCE, that would stand
for "linear thermal coefficient of expansion" which really is nonsensical.
Further, the coefficient is not 'thermal', but te expansion is.
IMHO,
Werner Engelmaier
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Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 11:37:11 +0200
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Mair, Christian" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Mair, Christian" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: really big boards
X-To: Guy Ramsey <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Maybe "optiprint" in Switzerland could help here. They produce boards with a
length up to 3,0 m (~ 9.8 feet).
Take a look: http://www.optiprint.ch/html/standard_and_large_pcb.html
Christian Mair
> ----------
> From: Guy Ramsey[SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Reply To: TechNet E-Mail Forum.;Guy Ramsey
> Sent: Freitag, 17. Mai 2002 21:13
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] really big boards
>
> That might be acceptable in size. No need to drill, but the etch is
> important, enough precision to do 1 mm trace and 1 mm space might be good
> enough.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Brummer Chuck
> Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 12:40 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] really big boards
>
>
> Some Mass Laminatin set ups could handle this size in lamination.
> But that is bigger than the largest exposure unit I've ever seen. The
> largest Scanex exposure unit I remember was 36" x 72". You still need a
> drill that big, never heard of one of those?
>
> Chuck Brummer
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hinners Hans M Civ WRALC/LUGE
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 8:08 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] really big boards
>
>
> Hey Guy,
>
> I can't say I've every seen or heard of an exposure unit
> that large or a lam press if it's multilayer that it could fit in. (You'd
> need a crane for the caul plates.)
>
> It must be Friday.
>
> Hans
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Guy Ramsey [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 7:14 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] really big boards
>
>
> Anybody know where we can get quotes on 4 by 8
> boards. Yes, four foot by eight foot boards. We do not need through hole
> plating but we do need images on both sides, oh yeah and thin 1mm or so.
>
>
> Guy Ramsey
> Senior Technician / Instructor
>
> E-Mail: [log in to unmask]
> Ph: (610) 362-1200 x107
> Fax: (610) 362-1290
>
>
>
>
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Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 07:38:17 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Sauer, Steven T." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Sauer, Steven T." <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Looking for a capacitance meter
X-To: "Houston, Terri" <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Good Morning Terri,
Check out Boonton Electronics at http://www.boonton.com/2002/index.html
Steve Sauer
-----Original Message-----
From: Houston, Terri [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 4:00 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Looking for a capacitance meter
I'm searching for a "cost effective" capacitance meter to use for measuring
chip capacitors.
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Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 08:19:57 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Sauer, Steven T." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Sauer, Steven T." <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Side fillet requirements
X-To: Frank Kimmey <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Good Morning Frank,
In answering your questions about side fillets, I'll ask how can you require
a side fillet when side overhang (< W/4) is acceptable? I don't have a
problem with figure 12-71 as it is depicting side joint length ONLY & does
NOT depict the other required characteristics (i.e. heel fillet) for an
acceptable solder connection. IMHO the problems arise from one's
interpretation of "evidence of a properly wetted fillet along full length of
lead". Since toe overhang is acceptable (and does not violate minimum
electrical spacing) how can the fillet extend the full length of the lead?
In summary, for flat ribbons, L and gull wing leads the minimum solder joint
requirements are to have a wetted solder fillet to 75% of the lead width,
75% of the lead length and a heel fillet above the lead thickness. Every
now and then I wish that common sense would prevail but that is too
uncommon!
Steve Sauer
Mfg Engineer
Northrop Grumman, Xetron
-----Original Message-----
From: Frank Kimmey [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 11:26 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Side fillet requirements
Hey Steve,
If you are watching, what is your take on side fillets?
How do you interpret IPC-610 figure 12-71?
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Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 08:53:56 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Hogg, Blair K." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Hogg, Blair K." <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Looking for a capacitance meter
X-To: "Houston, Terri" <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
IMHO, I would seriously doubt that if you analyzed all of the costs involved
that you could find a "cost effective" means to measure and re-label chip
capacitors. Unless you had a large quantity that you knew were all of the
same value and you sampled a small quantity to identify them, I think you
will find the cost of measuring, bagging and labeling exceeds the cost of
purchasing new parts. Of course, if you have people that are being paid and
have time, that's another story.
I saw a review for B&K capacitance meters and it indicated that these units
have an optional SMT probe. You might want to check it out. The review was
at:
http://www.chipcenter.com/TestandMeasurement/products_301-400/prod317.html
Blair Hogg
-----Original Message-----
From: Houston, Terri [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 4:00 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Looking for a capacitance meter
Hi Folks,
I'm searching for a "cost effective" capacitance meter to use for measuring
chip capacitors.
Seems the low-end designs have probes that won't work well with small size
parts, and the high-end models have more bells and whistles than we need.
I'm just looking for something to verify cap values for parts that become
separated from their labeled bags.
If you could offer any advice on models that would fit the bill, I'd
appreciate your input.
Thanks,
Terri
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Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 08:27:39 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
[log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Looking for a capacitance meter
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Keithley Instruments also makes a good line of meters. I've always been
happy with mine and the technical support received. Try www.keithley.com.
Doug Pauls
Rockwell Collins
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Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 07:49:13 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Barmuta, Mike" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Barmuta, Mike" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Looking for a capacitance meter
X-To: "Houston, Terri" <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Terri: I'm not sure what your "cost effective" $ budget is but Fluke makes
both a model 11 and a model 110. They will do capacitance along with a
variety of other features but without a lot of "bells and whistles" for
under $100. They are also available with mini or micro probes. The 110 is an
especially sweet little meter for the price and performance.
Regards
Michael Barmuta
-----Original Message-----
From: Houston, Terri [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 1:00 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Looking for a capacitance meter
Hi Folks,
I'm searching for a "cost effective" capacitance meter to use for measuring
chip capacitors.
Seems the low-end designs have probes that won't work well with small size
parts, and the high-end models have more bells and whistles than we need.
I'm just looking for something to verify cap values for parts that become
separated from their labeled bags.
If you could offer any advice on models that would fit the bill, I'd
appreciate your input.
Thanks,
Terri
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
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Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 08:02:50 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Crepeau, Phil" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Crepeau, Phil" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Inquiry on maximum temperature
X-To: [log in to unmask]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
hi,
is this some sort of rf 'valve'? more information would be helpful such as:
environmental conditions (chemicals, temperature, time, loads, etc.)
depiction of your design (if it's not proprietary)
why do you think a pwb substrate might make sense?
to answer your question as it stands, you could start with a supplier such as arlon and work with them.
phil
-----Original Message-----
From: Rick [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 4:25 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] (Fwd) Inquiry on maximum temperature
------- Forwarded message follows -------
Date sent: Mon, 20 May 2002 13:42:16 -0700
From: Dino Accoto <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Inquiry on maximum temperature
Dear Sir,
I am working at the RPL lab - Stanford University, on a project
aimed at the fabrication of a microvalve. One of the possible
technologies to fabricate the body of the valve is PCB. Is there any
available data about which maximum temperature a PCB can operate at for
a long time so that no appreciable deformation/material damage occur?
Thanks in advance for your information,
Dino Accoto
Rick Babyak
Process Engineer
Proto Circuit Inc.
7 Ascot Parkway
Cuyahoga Falls, OH 44223
330-572-3400
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Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 16:36:33 +0100
Reply-To: Dougal Stewart <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Dougal Stewart <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: really big boards
X-To: Guy Ramsey <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0094_01C201AE.D708A340"
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0094_01C201AE.D708A340
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Another UK alternative is a new company called RT circuits (website =
www.rtcircuits.com) who may be able to help, in volume ! I suggest that =
you contact through their website (and mention my name!) If you want up =
to 6 x 2, then try Viasystems Mommers in The Netherlands (who can also =
drill it), alternatively contact Photofab in the UK tel +44 1480 475831 =
(web address www.photofab.co.uk), who etch lift doors among other =
things, and have the biggest etcher I have ever seen. (again mention my =
name....)
Dougal Stewart
email: [log in to unmask]
phone: +44 1896 822204
mob: +44 7984 629667
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Guy Ramsey=20
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 12:14 PM
Subject: [TN] really big boards
Anybody know where we can get quotes on 4 by 8 boards. Yes, four foot =
by eight foot boards. We do not need through hole plating but we do need =
images on both sides, oh yeah and thin 1mm or so.=20
Guy Ramsey
Senior Technician / Instructor
=20
E-Mail: [log in to unmask]
Ph: (610) 362-1200 x107=20
Fax: (610) 362-1290=20
------=_NextPart_000_0094_01C201AE.D708A340
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Another UK alternative is a new company called =
RT circuits=20
(website <A href=3D"http://www.rtcircuits.com">www.rtcircuits.com</A>) =
who may be=20
able to help, in volume ! I suggest that you contact through their =
website (and=20
mention my name!) If you want up to 6 x 2, then try Viasystems Mommers =
in The=20
Netherlands (who can also drill it), alternatively contact Photofab in =
the UK=20
tel +44 1480 475831 (web address <A=20
href=3D"http://www.photofab.co.uk">www.photofab.co.uk</A>), who etch =
lift doors=20
among other things, and have the biggest etcher I have ever seen. (again =
mention=20
my name....)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Dougal Stewart</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>email: <A=20
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
om</A><BR>phone:=20
+44 1896 822204<BR>mob: +44 7984 629667</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A [log in to unmask] href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">Guy =
Ramsey</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A [log in to unmask]
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, May 17, 2002 =
12:14 PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [TN] really big =
boards</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D453180811-17052002>Anybody know where=20
we can get quotes on 4 by 8 boards. Yes, four foot by eight foot =
boards. We do=20
not need through hole plating but we do need images on both sides, oh =
yeah and=20
thin 1mm or so. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2>
<DIV><FONT size=3D+0>Guy Ramsey</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>Senior Technician / Instructor</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><A href=3D"outbind://56/www.aciusa.org"><IMG height=3D85=20
src=3D"cid:453180811@17052002-17f2" width=3D144 =
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<DIV><FONT size=3D-1>E-Mail: <A=20
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A></FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
size=3D-1>Ph: (610) 362-1200 x107</FONT> <BR><FONT =
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362-1290</FONT> </DIV>
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Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 10:59:26 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Jack C. Olson" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Jack C. Olson" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: ASSY: Reflow for Through-Hole Devices
X-cc: "Larry C. Collins" <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
One of my colleagues here is thinking their must be some kind of solder
ring, or collar, or donut shaped thing that you can drop over the leads of
a (bottom mounted) through-hole device, and then when you reflow the board
the donuts melt and form a fillet for the PTH device at the same time.
Does anyone do this?
If this is feasible, where can I find out more (and get a source for the
solder rings)?
Jack
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Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 11:00:55 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Mel Parrish <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Mel Parrish <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Side fillet requirements
X-To: "Sauer, Steven T." <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hi Steve,
Yep to all of that.
Believe it or not, the actual 3D image for Figure 12-71 has an acceptable
solder fillet to the heel of the lead also. Kinda hard to see from the view
we put in the spec since it is behind the lead, but if you rotate the page
just right (kidding), it's there.
Mel Parrish
Director of Training
Soldering Technology International
102 Tribble Drive
Madison, AL 35758
256 705 5530
256 705 5538 Fax
[log in to unmask]
www.solderingtech.com
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Sauer, Steven T.
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 7:20 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Side fillet requirements
Good Morning Frank,
In answering your questions about side fillets, I'll ask how can you require
a side fillet when side overhang (< W/4) is acceptable? I don't have a
problem with figure 12-71 as it is depicting side joint length ONLY & does
NOT depict the other required characteristics (i.e. heel fillet) for an
acceptable solder connection. IMHO the problems arise from one's
interpretation of "evidence of a properly wetted fillet along full length of
lead". Since toe overhang is acceptable (and does not violate minimum
electrical spacing) how can the fillet extend the full length of the lead?
In summary, for flat ribbons, L and gull wing leads the minimum solder joint
requirements are to have a wetted solder fillet to 75% of the lead width,
75% of the lead length and a heel fillet above the lead thickness. Every
now and then I wish that common sense would prevail but that is too
uncommon!
Steve Sauer
Mfg Engineer
Northrop Grumman, Xetron
-----Original Message-----
From: Frank Kimmey [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 11:26 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Side fillet requirements
Hey Steve,
If you are watching, what is your take on side fillets?
How do you interpret IPC-610 figure 12-71?
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Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 12:00:36 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Tom Buschor <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Tom Buschor <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Conformal coating BGAs
Linda,
Our data shows that using conformal coating as underfill can improve low
and high cycle fatigue life of BGA solder joints.
Years ago we conducted a test to compare the reliability of non-underfilled
BGAs, BGAs underfilled with a conformal coating material and BGAs
underfilled with reworkable epoxy. In general, BGAs underfilled with
conformal coating lasted longer than non-underfilled parts but failed
sooner than epoxy underfilled BGAs.
It depends on what type of BGAs are being underfilled and what conformal
coating material is being used as well as the test conditions.
I cannot share more without legal papers. If you wish to know more, contact
me offline.
Tom
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Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 12:13:23 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Tom Buschor <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Tom Buschor <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: BGA's on ruggedized assemblies...
Steve,
We are using a Loctite material for underfill of BGAs. It does
significantly improve interconnect reliability in thermal cycling and
vibration.
It is reworkable, and we have proven that reworked BGAs are just as
reliable.
On the down-side, rework is time consuming and it has to be done very
carefully to prevent damage to the PWB. A well controlled process is
essential.
Tom
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Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 14:53:12 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Torres, Roberto" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Torres, Roberto" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: PCB materials
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
All;
I am looking for some help in selecting material for a PCB we are
designing to go into 85/85 (85=B0C / 85% humidity), aging (85=B0C dry =
bake), and
temp cycle (-40=B0C to 85=B0C) ovens. I know that there are dozens of =
options
out there for fabricating boards that will survive this, but I'm sure =
that
some of them are considered standard processes that can be obtained
inexpensively, and some of them more exotic. Could any of you offer =
some
guidance? One of my biggest concerns is the metallization in the
high-humidity environment. I think that copper could cause some =
serious
problems here... but under a mask and with SnPb on all the exposed =
areas,
maybe I'm wrong. Each of the boards must last a minimum of 1000 hours =
at
these conditions, although several thousands of hours is obviously
preferable, so that they can be reused. =20
Any help provided would be greatly appreciated.
Regards
Bob Torres
Roberto Torres
CENiX Inc.
5141 California Ave, Suite 150
Irvine, CA 92612
Email: [log in to unmask]
Tel: 949-428-2672=20
Fax: 949-428-2671=20
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Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 14:24:06 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Linda Woody <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Linda Woody <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: TypeUR conformal coatings
I am currently using a type UR (Humiseal 1A33) conformal coating which has
been shown to discolor over time and temp. Granted all UR's discolor over
time, but this one seams to be worse than others (Conathane 1155). The 1A33
is QPL approved and is very producible (no bubbles, very little T/U rework)
Is anyone out there using Humiseal 1A33? And what if any feedback or data
can you provide on reliability of this material as a conformal coating.
Appreciate any info
Thanks
Linda Woody
Lockheed Martin
Missiles and Fire Control
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Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 15:51:48 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Woody, Linda L" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Woody, Linda L" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ASSY: Reflow for Through-Hole Devices
X-To: "Jack C. Olson" <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Jack,
We use solder preforms regularly, both in convection reflow and even
more at laser solder for PTH connectors and compliant pins, etc. We use both
Alpha and Indium as sources for preforms. There is info on the Alpha metals
web site. They have a pretty good selection of sizes and will tool for
custom sizes for a tooling fee.
The preforms work great because you can calculate exactly what your
solder volume needs to be for critical applications and when used with a
precision process like laser soldering you can achieve 100% yields!
Linda
-----Original Message-----
From: Jack C. Olson [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 11:59 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] ASSY: Reflow for Through-Hole Devices
One of my colleagues here is thinking their must be some kind of solder
ring, or collar, or donut shaped thing that you can drop over the leads of
a (bottom mounted) through-hole device, and then when you reflow the board
the donuts melt and form a fillet for the PTH device at the same time.
Does anyone do this?
If this is feasible, where can I find out more (and get a source for the
solder rings)?
Jack
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Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 16:20:51 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Lee Whiteman <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Lee Whiteman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ASSY: Reflow for Through-Hole Devices
X-To: "Jack C. Olson" <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Jack,
In a prior life, I used solder preforms shaped like donuts to accomplish the
same thing that you're trying to do. There are several solder preform
manufacturers out there. They come in all shapes and sizes.
The process is feasible. The biggest problem that I had was assuring that
the donuts stayed where I placed them prior to soldering. Also, depending
upon their size, they can be very fragile. if you have good process control
in the soldering process, you can make it work.
Hope this helps. Good Luck.
Lee Whiteman
Senior Manufacturing Engineer
E-Mail: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Ph: (610) 362-1200 x208
Fax: (610) 362-1290
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Jack C. Olson
> Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 11:59 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] ASSY: Reflow for Through-Hole Devices
>
>
> One of my colleagues here is thinking their must be some kind of solder
> ring, or collar, or donut shaped thing that you can drop over the leads of
> a (bottom mounted) through-hole device, and then when you reflow the board
> the donuts melt and form a fillet for the PTH device at the same time.
>
> Does anyone do this?
> If this is feasible, where can I find out more (and get a source for the
> solder rings)?
>
> Jack
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------
> Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d
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> information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or
> 847-509-9700 ext.5315
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------
>
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=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 15:18:07 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Chris Almeras <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Chris Almeras <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: TypeUR conformal coatings
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
We have used 1A33 for several years on assemblies with military =
applications. I do not know what temperatures or environments those =
applications are seeing, but I have never had any issues with the =
material, and I have never had any concerns over the material from our =
customers.=20
Chris Almeras
DSI
-----Original Message-----
From: Linda Woody [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 2:24 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] TypeUR conformal coatings
I am currently using a type UR (Humiseal 1A33) conformal coating which =
has
been shown to discolor over time and temp. Granted all UR's discolor =
over
time, but this one seams to be worse than others (Conathane 1155). The =
1A33
is QPL approved and is very producible (no bubbles, very little T/U =
rework)
Is anyone out there using Humiseal 1A33? And what if any feedback or =
data
can you provide on reliability of this material as a conformal coating.
Appreciate any info
Thanks
Linda Woody
Lockheed Martin
Missiles and Fire Control
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Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 18:11:25 -0400
Reply-To: Ed Valentine <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Ed Valentine <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Electronics Manufacturing Solutions
Subject: Re: ASSY: Reflow for Through-Hole Devices
X-To: "Jack C. Olson" <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Jack -
Back about 20 years ago we use to solder wire-wrap pins into backplanes
using solder "donuts" and vapor phase soldering. The process worked great.
Ed Valentine
Electronics Manufacturing Solutions
8612 Mourning Dove Road, Raleigh, NC 27615
Phone: (919) 270-5145, Fax: (919) 847-9971
Email: [log in to unmask]
Website: http://www.ems-consulting.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack C. Olson" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 11:59 AM
Subject: [TN] ASSY: Reflow for Through-Hole Devices
> One of my colleagues here is thinking their must be some kind of solder
> ring, or collar, or donut shaped thing that you can drop over the leads of
> a (bottom mounted) through-hole device, and then when you reflow the board
> the donuts melt and form a fillet for the PTH device at the same time.
>
> Does anyone do this?
> If this is feasible, where can I find out more (and get a source for the
> solder rings)?
>
> Jack
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
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> information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-509-9700
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> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 18:32:49 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: ASSY: Reflow for Through-Hole Devices
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="part1_165.da2599b.2a1d7691_boundary"
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Hi Jack!
Many of the solder companies make preforms, kinda' tedious to deal with
though. Depending on what kind of PTH component it is, there is a company
called TEKA (http://www.tekais.com) that make headers, sockets, connectors,
that have what they call SBL (Solder Bearing Lead) Technology.
I've got some boards here that have double-sided SMT and is NOT wave-able due
to the design, and has PTH headers that go through both sides of the board
and would have to be hand soldered...but not anymore They're fixing me up
with some headers and sockets that will be dropped in and reflowed along with
the SMT.
I've used these before at another company when we built PC104 products...they
work great!
-Steve Gregory-
> One of my colleagues here is thinking their must be some kind of solder
> ring, or collar, or donut shaped thing that you can drop over the leads of
> a (bottom mounted) through-hole device, and then when you reflow the board
> the donuts melt and form a fillet for the PTH device at the same time.
>
> Does anyone do this?
> If this is feasible, where can I find out more (and get a source for the
> solder rings)?
>
> Jack
>
--part1_165.da2599b.2a1d7691_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>Hi Jack!<BR>
<BR>
Many of the solder companies make preforms, kinda' tedious to deal with though. Depending on what kind of PTH component it is, there is a company called TEKA (http://www.tekais.com) that make headers, sockets, connectors, that have what they call SBL (Solder Bearing Lead) Technology.<BR>
<BR>
I've got some boards here that have double-sided SMT and is NOT wave-able due to the design, and has PTH headers that go through both sides of the board and would have to be hand soldered...but not anymore They're fixing me up with some headers and sockets that will be dropped in and reflowed along with the SMT.<BR>
<BR>
I've used these before at another company when we built PC104 products...they work great!<BR>
<BR>
-Steve Gregory-<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">One of my colleagues here is thinking their must be some kind of solder<BR>
ring, or collar, or donut shaped thing that you can drop over the leads of<BR>
a (bottom mounted) through-hole device, and then when you reflow the board<BR>
the donuts melt and form a fillet for the PTH device at the same time.<BR>
<BR>
Does anyone do this?<BR>
If this is feasible, where can I find out more (and get a source for the<BR>
solder rings)?<BR>
<BR>
Jack<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 17:21:52 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Mark Roslawski <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Mark Roslawski <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: ThermalWorks
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Inquiry on maximum temperature
X-To: Rick <[log in to unmask]>
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In repsonse to your request you made on technet for a High Temp PCB we may
have an answer for you !
Please vist our Web Site: www.thermalworks.com
We have several products one is or Tg747 ( Glass Transition Temperature of
747 degree F )
We also have a product line of what we call STABLCOR, which is a Thermally
managed, closely matched CTE PCB technology with thermal transfers up to
1000 W / m K.
Mark A. Roslawski
Vice President Marketing
ThermalWorks
2910 South Oak Street
Santa Ana, CA. 92707
Sales Office:
Tel. +1 (714) 960-5152 x204
Fax +1 (714) 960-2505
Factory:
Tel. +1 (714) 540-8454 x166
Fax. +1 (714) 540-1299
Email: [log in to unmask]
Web Site: www.thermalworks.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 4:24 AM
Subject: [TN] (Fwd) Inquiry on maximum temperature
> ------- Forwarded message follows -------
> Date sent: Mon, 20 May 2002 13:42:16 -0700
> From: Dino Accoto <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Inquiry on maximum temperature
>
> Dear Sir,
>
> I am working at the RPL lab - Stanford University, on a project
> aimed at the fabrication of a microvalve. One of the possible
> technologies to fabricate the body of the valve is PCB. Is there any
> available data about which maximum temperature a PCB can operate at for
> a long time so that no appreciable deformation/material damage occur?
>
> Thanks in advance for your information,
> Dino Accoto
>
>
>
>
> Rick Babyak
> Process Engineer
> Proto Circuit Inc.
> 7 Ascot Parkway
> Cuyahoga Falls, OH 44223
> 330-572-3400
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 12:40:44 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Reid, Lorraine" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Reid, Lorraine" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: D2PAK devices
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Can the learned people at Technet please advise on solder acceptance =
guidelines for D2PAK devices?
Obviously the pair of leads (at what I will call the front edge of the =
device) are treated as any leaded device in respect of the =
acceptability criteria of IPC-A-610, but what should the "plate" at the =
back be treated as?
We have a situation where the pad design is just undersize for the =
component to be fitted - if we allow the front leads to overhang their =
pads, then we would accept this as "toe overhang" which does not violate =
minimum electrical clearance, but I am unsure as to what set of =
guidelines best applies to the lead at the rear of the device.
I hope I have explained this OK.
thanks
Lorraine Reid
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Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 08:50:20 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: ASSY: Reflow for Through-Hole Devices
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Would "tacky" flux work to hold the donuts to the lead/component in question?
Mike Sewell
--part1_70.1d2e4585.2a1e3f8c_boundary
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2>Would "tacky" flux work to hold the donuts to the lead/component in question? <BR>
<BR>
Mike Sewell</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 07:09:38 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Denis Lefebvre <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Denis Lefebvre <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: BGA Solderability
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Technet;
As a designer, I diligently try to understand and account for =
fabrication and assembly issues in my designs. It can be frustrating =
when working with EE's that are not well versed in manufacturing as they =
request things that you know are not good practice from a DFM viewpoint. =
I have a case now where an EE is asking for a copper fill on BGA ground =
pins. Since this is not easy to describe in a way that every one can =
understand, I am including a small JPG to illustrate. It is a 356 pin =
BGA, 1mm pitch, 0.5mm solder lands.=20
I am convinced that this will not fare well when they try to solder this =
part, yet the engineer insists on doing it this way. What argument can I =
make, with supporting data, to persuade him? Simply telling him that I =
know it is poor practice isn't cutting it! [Adjusting tie..."I tell ya, =
we get no respect!"]
=20
=20
Denis Lefebvre, C.I.D.
Senior PCB Designer
408-542-3832
Finisar Corporation
1308 Moffett Park Drive
Sunnyvale, CA 94086
www.finisar.com <http://www.finisar.com/>=20
=20
------_=_NextPart_002_01C20263.79C72BC6
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2716.2200" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D852105713-23052002><FONT =
size=3D2>Technet;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D852105713-23052002><FONT size=3D2>As a designer, I =
diligently try=20
to understand and account for fabrication and assembly issues in my =
designs. It can be frustrating when working with EE's that are not well =
versed=20
in manufacturing as they request things that you <EM>know </EM>are =
not good=20
practice from a DFM viewpoint. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D852105713-23052002><FONT size=3D2>I have a case now =
where an EE=20
is asking for a copper fill on BGA ground pins. Since this is not easy =
to=20
describe in a way that every one can understand, I am including a small =
JPG to=20
illustrate. It is a 356 pin BGA, 1mm pitch, 0.5mm solder lands.=20
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D852105713-23052002><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D852105713-23052002><FONT size=3D2><IMG alt=3D"" hspace=3D0=20
src=3D"cid:852105713@23052002-1587" align=3Dbaseline=20
border=3D0></FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D852105713-23052002><FONT size=3D2>I am convinced that =
this will=20
not fare well when they try to solder this part, yet the engineer =
insists on=20
doing it this way. What argument can I make, with supporting data, to =
persuade=20
him? Simply telling him that I know it is poor practice isn't cutting =
it!=20
[Adjusting tie..."I tell ya, we get no respect!"]</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D852105713-23052002><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D852105713-23052002><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Denis Lefebvre, C.I.D.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Senior PCB Designer</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>408-542-3832</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><U><EM><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"><STRONG>Finisar</STRONG></FONT></EM></U>=20
Corporation</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>1308 Moffett Park Drive</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Sunnyvale, CA 94086</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.finisar.com/">www.finisar.com</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 10:18:29 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Sauer, Steven T." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Sauer, Steven T." <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: D2PAK devices
X-To: "Reid, Lorraine" <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Good Morning Lorraine,
I would consider IPC-A-610C 12.2.9 Flat Lug Leads applicable to the ground
flange on the D2PAK. In most instances this package type is utilzed for
devices that generate a considerable amount of heat thus the large flange
along the bottom of the package. It would not be good practice to undersize
this pad.
Steve Sauer
Mfg Engineer
Northrop Grumman, Xetron
-----Original Message-----
From: Reid, Lorraine [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 7:41 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] D2PAK devices
Can the learned people at Technet please advise on solder acceptance
guidelines for D2PAK devices?
Obviously the pair of leads (at what I will call the front edge of the
device) are treated as any leaded device in respect of the acceptability
criteria of IPC-A-610, but what should the "plate" at the back be treated
as?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 15:20:41 +0100
Reply-To: Phil Kinner <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Phil Kinner <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Concoat Ltd
Subject: Re: TypeUR conformal coatings
X-To: Linda Woody <[log in to unmask]>
X-cc: "Support, Tech" <[log in to unmask]>
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Linda,
The darkening of the HumiSeal 1A33 that you are seeing is due to the =
oxidative cross-linking mechanism of the resin. In many ways, this is a =
good thing, since it shows that your product is fully cross-linked, and =
hence the full properties of the 1A33 coating have developed.
I have not heard of anybody having reliability concerns regarding 1A33 - =
indeed it is used extensively in many hostile environments, where it's =
superior chemical resistance is beneficial. I do not have any =
reliability data for the 1A33 - I think you'd need to approach someone =
building similar boards for similar environments as yours, to get some =
comparative data.
Have you tried HumiSeal direct? Jim Lawrence [log in to unmask] is =
usually a good source of information.
Best Regards,
Phil Kinner
Chief Chemist
Please note that Concoat has recently acquired the former Multicore =
SPCID business. For more information, please visit our new web site =
www.concoatsystems.com=20
=20
Concoat Ltd
Alasan House, Albany Park,=20
Camberley, Surrey, GU16 7PH
=20
Tel: +44 (0) 1276 691100
Fax: +44 (0) 1276 691227
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Linda Woody=20
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 8:24 PM
Subject: [TN] TypeUR conformal coatings
I am currently using a type UR (Humiseal 1A33) conformal coating which =
has
been shown to discolor over time and temp. Granted all UR's discolor =
over
time, but this one seams to be worse than others (Conathane 1155). The =
1A33
is QPL approved and is very producible (no bubbles, very little T/U =
rework)
Is anyone out there using Humiseal 1A33? And what if any feedback or =
data
can you provide on reliability of this material as a conformal =
coating.
Appreciate any info
Thanks
Linda Woody
Lockheed Martin
Missiles and Fire Control
=
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--------
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1.8d
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in
the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet
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[log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL
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[log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest
Search the archives of previous posts at: =
http://listserv.ipc.org/archives
Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm for =
additional
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847-509-9700 ext.5315
=
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Linda,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>The darkening of the =
HumiSeal 1A33=20
that you are seeing is due to the oxidative cross-linking mechanism of =
the=20
resin. In many ways, this is a good thing, since it shows that =
your=20
product is fully cross-linked, and hence the full properties of the 1A33 =
coating=20
have developed.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I have not heard of =
anybody having=20
reliability concerns regarding 1A33 - indeed it is used extensively in =
many=20
hostile environments, where it's superior chemical resistance is=20
beneficial. I do not have any reliability data for the 1A33 - I =
think=20
you'd need to approach someone building similar boards for similar =
environments=20
as yours, to get some comparative data.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Have you tried HumiSeal =
direct? =20
Jim Lawrence <A href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A> =
is usually=20
a good source of information.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Best =
Regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Phil =
Kinner</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D1>Chief =
Chemist</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Please note that Concoat has recently acquired the former Multicore =
SPCID=20
business. For more information, please visit our new web site <A=20
href=3D"http://www.concoatsystems.com">www.concoatsystems.com</A>=20
<BR> <BR>Concoat Ltd<BR>Alasan House, Albany Park, <BR>Camberley, =
Surrey,=20
GU16 7PH<BR> <BR>Tel: +44 (0) 1276 691100<BR>Fax: +44 (0) 1276=20
691227<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A [log in to unmask] =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">Linda=20
Woody</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A [log in to unmask]
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, May 22, 2002 =
8:24=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [TN] TypeUR conformal=20
coatings</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>I am currently using a type UR (Humiseal 1A33) =
conformal=20
coating which has<BR>been shown to discolor over time and temp. =
Granted all=20
UR's discolor over<BR>time, but this one seams to be worse than others =
(Conathane 1155). The 1A33<BR>is QPL approved and is very producible =
(no=20
bubbles, very little T/U rework)<BR><BR>Is anyone out there using =
Humiseal=20
1A33? And what if any feedback or data<BR>can you provide on =
reliability of=20
this material as a conformal coating.<BR><BR>Appreciate any=20
info<BR>Thanks<BR>Linda Woody<BR>Lockheed Martin<BR>Missiles and Fire=20
=
Control<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------=
-----------------------<BR>Technet=20
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=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 07:22:38 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
William Sullivan <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: William Sullivan <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Vision Engraving Systems
Subject: resume post
William J. Sullivan C.I.D.
Certified Interconnecting Designer
Technical Support
Vision Engraving Systems
17621 N. Black Canyon Hwy
Phoenix, Arizona 85023
602-439-0600 EX 215
602-439-0500 FAX
[log in to unmask]
begin 600 Resume--William Sullivan.doc
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end
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---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 10:33:00 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Guy Ramsey <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Guy Ramsey <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: D2PAK devices
X-To: "Reid, Lorraine" <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I expect to see a fillet that complies with the requirements for a bottom
only termination.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Reid, Lorraine
> Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 7:41 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] D2PAK devices
>
>
> Can the learned people at Technet please advise on solder
> acceptance guidelines for D2PAK devices?
>
> Obviously the pair of leads (at what I will call the front edge
> of the device) are treated as any leaded device in respect of
> the acceptability criteria of IPC-A-610, but what should the
> "plate" at the back be treated as?
>
> We have a situation where the pad design is just undersize for
> the component to be fitted - if we allow the front leads to
> overhang their pads, then we would accept this as "toe overhang"
> which does not violate minimum electrical clearance, but I am
> unsure as to what set of guidelines best applies to the lead at
> the rear of the device.
>
> I hope I have explained this OK.
>
> thanks
>
> Lorraine Reid
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=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 10:08:57 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Beerman, Dennis" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Beerman, Dennis" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: BGA Solderability
X-To: Denis Lefebvre <[log in to unmask]>
Technet strips off attachments, so your pic isn't visible. Look for an email
from Terri Houston. She is a Manufacturing Engineer I work with.
What you appear to be asking for would require you to have a soldermask
defined pad for the bga attachment, and she can advise you of problems
there. EE's need to start listening to Manufacturing Engineers more!!
-----Original Message-----
From: Denis Lefebvre [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 10:10 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] BGA Solderability
Technet;
As a designer, I diligently try to understand and account for fabrication
and assembly issues in my designs. It can be frustrating when working with
EE's that are not well versed in manufacturing as they request things that
you know are not good practice from a DFM viewpoint.
I have a case now where an EE is asking for a copper fill on BGA ground
pins. Since this is not easy to describe in a way that every one can
understand, I am including a small JPG to illustrate. It is a 356 pin BGA,
1mm pitch, 0.5mm solder lands.
I am convinced that this will not fare well when they try to solder this
part, yet the engineer insists on doing it this way. What argument can I
make, with supporting data, to persuade him? Simply telling him that I know
it is poor practice isn't cutting it! [Adjusting tie..."I tell ya, we get no
respect!"]
Denis Lefebvre, C.I.D.
Senior PCB Designer
408-542-3832
Finisar Corporation
1308 Moffett Park Drive
Sunnyvale, CA 94086
www.finisar.com <http://www.finisar.com/>
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Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 10:12:13 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
John Perry <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: John Perry <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Fire Up for IPC Annual Meeting 2002
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
It's time to "Fire Up for IPC's Annual Meeting." Join us November 3-7, =
2002 at the Hyatt Regency New Orleans. For the second year in a row, =
you'll have a chance to increase your technical knowledge of the PCB and =
EMS industry, network with your peers and get a better understanding of =
market trends and how the industry is shaping up.=20
This year's technical theme "Next Generation Interconnecting and the Hole =
Truth of High Density Interconnects", consists of sessions that include a =
variety of paper presentations and panel discussions on:
=B7 Via plating and hole fill technology
=B7 Alternatives to HASL from the OEM, EMS, manufacturer and supplier =
perspective
=B7 Advances in embedded passives
=B7 Obstacles to implementing optoelectronics in telecommunications
=B7 Going 3D -- folder and stacked die technologies revolutionize CSP =
products
=B7 IPC's 2002/2003 National Technology Roadmap
=B7 Signal integrity innovations
Interested in sharing your expertise on these or other related subjects? =
You still have time to sign up to lead a technical session or present a =
paper. The deadline for abstract and workshop proposals is June 1, 2002. =
You can submit your information online quickly and easily through the =
link provided below. And, presenters receive FREE conference admission! =
Contact [log in to unmask] for more information.
Be sure to visit www.ipc.org and look under "Events and Projects" for the =
link to IPC's Annual Meeting and Technical Conference. You'll see the =
latest hotel/travel and updated meeting information. You can even =
register online. =20
We look forward to seeing you next November! =20
John Perry
Technical Project Manager
IPC
2215 Sanders Road
Northbrook, Il 60062
1-847-790-5318 (P)
1-847-509-9798 (F)
[log in to unmask]
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Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 09:24:33 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Houston, Terri" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Houston, Terri" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: BGA Solderability
X-To: Denis Lefebvre <[log in to unmask]>
Dennis - thanks for sending me your attachment separately.
The ground-plane flooding on layer 1 that your EE wants will result in BGA
solder ball pads that are defined by the soldermask opening.
More than 10 years ago, Motorola and other companies went thru quite a bit
of thermal-cycling testing and found that this design (dubbed "captured
pads") causes solder joint fatigue and failure faster than non-captured
pads.
Basically, captured pads create a hi-stress-concentration area in the solder
joint that is more susceptible to creep and failure due to the differences
in thermal expansion between the PC board and the BGA package (which is
dominated by the die bonded to it in the 'shadow' of the die).
To address your concern on assembly, I'm not aware of any studies (and would
not think) that a flooded plane would cause assembly problems.
Good luck - EEs can be hard to deal with.
Terri
(an EE)
-----Original Message-----
From: Denis Lefebvre [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 10:10 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] BGA Solderability
Technet;
As a designer, I diligently try to understand and account for fabrication
and assembly issues in my designs. It can be frustrating when working with
EE's that are not well versed in manufacturing as they request things that
you know are not good practice from a DFM viewpoint.
I have a case now where an EE is asking for a copper fill on BGA ground
pins. Since this is not easy to describe in a way that every one can
understand, I am including a small JPG to illustrate. It is a 356 pin BGA,
1mm pitch, 0.5mm solder lands.
I am convinced that this will not fare well when they try to solder this
part, yet the engineer insists on doing it this way. What argument can I
make, with supporting data, to persuade him? Simply telling him that I know
it is poor practice isn't cutting it! [Adjusting tie..."I tell ya, we get no
respect!"]
Denis Lefebvre, C.I.D.
Senior PCB Designer
408-542-3832
Finisar Corporation
1308 Moffett Park Drive
Sunnyvale, CA 94086
www.finisar.com <http://www.finisar.com/>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 17:29:36 +0200
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Tegehall Per-Erik <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Tegehall Per-Erik <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Conformal coating BGAs
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Graham,
Now have I opened my TechNet eyes. The study was done in the beginning =
of
the nineties, i.e. before BGAs were used. What we found was that the
reliability of solder joints to LCCCs were improved by conformal =
coatings
most notably by Parylene and some silicone coatings but also to some =
extent
by other conformal coatings. It should be pointed out that only a =
fraction
of the space beneath the LCCCs were filled with coating material.
We have later performed a study for ESA in which we applied a =
solventless
silicone conformal coating as underfill under ceramic BGAs and CGAs =
monted
on polyimide/glass and polyimide/aramide (Thermount) boards. We could =
not
see any significant influence of the silicone "underfill" on the =
fatigue
life of the solder joints, i.e. it neither improved nor worsened the =
fatigue
life.
Regards
Per-Erik Tegehall
-----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
Fr=E5n: Graham Naisbitt [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Skickat: den 21 maj 2002 22:40
Till: [log in to unmask]
=C4mne: Re: [TN] Conformal coating BGAs
Peter, Linda et al (whoever he/she/is?) :-)
I have a study completed by IVF in 1988, regarding the influence of
conformal coatings to the reduction in lead pad fracturing by >80%.
I may be able to send you copies but, if Per-Erik Tegehall has his
TechNet eyes open, maybe he can enlighten me to the availability of =
this
study. Let me know please.
With specific regard to BGA underfill, and with due recognition of SIR
Doug's posting, I think it might be feasible to utilise some of the
newer coating formulations - e.g. water based - that may do a very
acceptable job in one operation. Curing will be an important criterion
that requires proper control as Doug says.
If you would care to assist me, I will be willing to receive your
samples here, coat them using production methodology and return them =
for
test evaluation FOC. Let me know please?
Regards Graham Naisbitt
[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Concoat ANNOUNCE their acquisition of the former Multicore SPCID
business.
MUST II Solderability Testing Systems -
CM Cleanliness Testing Systems -
Auto-SIR Reliability Testing Systems -
SoldaPro & NEW SoldaPro Wizard Thermal Profilers
For more information please visit our new web site:
www.concoatsystems.com <http://www.concoatsystems.com>
Concoat Limited
Alasan House, Albany Park
Camberley GU16 7PH - UK
www.concoat.co.uk <http://www.concoat.co.uk>
Phone: +44 1276 691100
Fax: +44 1276 691227
Mobile: +44 79 6858 2121
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
> [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 06:34
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Conformal coating BGAs
>
>
> Linda,
>
> I woud be interested to see the information you have that
> says underfilling a BGA with Conformal Coating reduces life
> cycle. I epoxy underfill BGA's at present, but there are
> mutterings from bean counters, etc about this extra process,
> and why can't we just underfill with coating? I have argued
> about his, but from a rather hypothetical standpoint -
> comparative thermal conduction properties of the two
> materials, ease of rework of my underfill versus difficulty
> in removing parts stuck down with coating, stated improved
> life of BGA joints using epoxy versus "I expect coating
> underfill to have no beneficial effect on life cycle". I've
> had no words of wisdom to back up my wanting to keep epoxy
> underfilling and my rejecting coating underfilling.
>
> I suspect the reason for reducing life cycle is if the
> coating underneath the component is thick and hasn't cured
> properly - after all, it's supposed to be a thin coating, not
> a thick filler. The chemisty of uncured coating is bound to
> be different from that of cured stuff. Perhaps Graham N. or
> Brian E. can step in at this point (?).
>
> Peter
>
>
>
> Linda Woody <[log in to unmask]> 20/05/2002 11:53 PM
> Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
>
> Please respond to "TechNet E-Mail Forum."; Please respond to
> Linda Woody
>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> cc: (bcc: DUNCAN Peter/Asst Prin Engr/ST Aero/ST Group)
> Subject: [TN] Conformal coating BGAs
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I am searching for any data out in the industry referencing
> the affects of conformal coatings on BGA devices? How much
> coating should be allowed under the device? Should the
> underside of the BGA be completely dammed or underfilled? I
> have collected data that shows standard spraying of coating
> material does not affect life cycle, but allowing complete
> underfill of the coating material greatly reduces life cycle.
> What concerns are there for leaving exposed adjacent uncoated
> conductors (BGA balls) under the BGA devices?
>
> Regards,
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> -------------------
>
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Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 10:37:44 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
rgrant <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: rgrant <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: PCB materials
X-To: "Torres, Roberto" <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bob, What you are asking for is not exotic. Board fab processes, and =
PCB
assembly processes will have a bigger impact under those conditions =
than the
raw materials in the PCB. Standard FR-4 and your favorite finish =
(including
OSP covered copper) will work just fine.
Regards,
Ryan Grant
-----Original Message-----
From: Torres, Roberto [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 12:53 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] PCB materials
All;
I am looking for some help in selecting material for a PCB we are
designing to go into 85/85 (85=B0C / 85% humidity), aging (85=B0C dry =
bake), and
temp cycle (-40=B0C to 85=B0C) ovens. I know that there are dozens of =
options
out there for fabricating boards that will survive this, but I'm sure =
that
some of them are considered standard processes that can be obtained
inexpensively, and some of them more exotic. Could any of you offer =
some
guidance? One of my biggest concerns is the metallization in the
high-humidity environment. I think that copper could cause some =
serious
problems here... but under a mask and with SnPb on all the exposed =
areas,
maybe I'm wrong. Each of the boards must last a minimum of 1000 hours =
at
these conditions, although several thousands of hours is obviously
preferable, so that they can be reused. =20
Any help provided would be greatly appreciated.
Regards
Bob Torres
Roberto Torres
CENiX Inc.
5141 California Ave, Suite 150
Irvine, CA 92612
Email: [log in to unmask]
Tel: 949-428-2672=20
Fax: 949-428-2671=20
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=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 13:00:09 -0400
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Jeff Seeger <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Applied CAD Knowledge Inc
Subject: Re: BGA Solderability
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Denis Lefebvre wrote:
>
> snip <
> I have a case now where an EE is asking for a copper fill on BGA
> ground pins. Since this is not easy to describe in a way that every
> one can understand, I am including a small JPG to illustrate. It is a
> 356 pin BGA, 1mm pitch, 0.5mm solder lands.
Since attachments don't get distributed, let me try to
make a guess that your EE wants a "puddle" of ground in
an area of the array, not the whole part.
>
> I am convinced that this will not fare well when they try to solder
> this part, yet the engineer insists on doing it this way. What
> argument can I make, with supporting data, to persuade him?
If my assumptions are close to correct, what you wind up
with is part of the array with copper defined lands and
part of the array with soldermask defined lands. This
will probably lead a manufacturer to need to make a sten-
cil with two different size openings, after they discover
they have a problem.
You may be able to anticipate by reducing the soldermask
pad size to match the copper pad size on affected balls,
or if your CAD package won't allow this then show the EE
the % difference in land area.
HTH,
--
Jeff Seeger Applied CAD Knowledge Inc
Chief Technical Officer Tyngsboro, MA 01879
jseeger "at" appliedcad "dot" com 978 649 9800
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Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 13:01:13 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Torres, Roberto" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Torres, Roberto" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: PCB materials
X-To: rgrant <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ryan;
Thanks for the information, as this is not my are of expertise, I
was concerned about the several thousand hours. Is there some =
documentation
that has information on how different material hold up under extended
periods
of time under these conditions?
Again thanks for you help.
Regards
Bob Torres
-----Original Message-----
From: rgrant [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 9:38 AM
To: 'TechNet E-Mail Forum.'; 'Torres, Roberto'
Subject: RE: [TN] PCB materials
Bob, What you are asking for is not exotic. Board fab processes, and =
PCB
assembly processes will have a bigger impact under those conditions =
than the
raw materials in the PCB. Standard FR-4 and your favorite finish =
(including
OSP covered copper) will work just fine.
Regards,
Ryan Grant
-----Original Message-----
From: Torres, Roberto [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 12:53 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] PCB materials
All;
I am looking for some help in selecting material for a PCB we are
designing to go into 85/85 (85=B0C / 85% humidity), aging (85=B0C dry =
bake), and
temp cycle (-40=B0C to 85=B0C) ovens. I know that there are dozens of =
options
out there for fabricating boards that will survive this, but I'm sure =
that
some of them are considered standard processes that can be obtained
inexpensively, and some of them more exotic. Could any of you offer =
some
guidance? One of my biggest concerns is the metallization in the
high-humidity environment. I think that copper could cause some =
serious
problems here... but under a mask and with SnPb on all the exposed =
areas,
maybe I'm wrong. Each of the boards must last a minimum of 1000 hours =
at
these conditions, although several thousands of hours is obviously
preferable, so that they can be reused. =20
Any help provided would be greatly appreciated.
Regards
Bob Torres
Roberto Torres
CENiX Inc.
5141 California Ave, Suite 150
Irvine, CA 92612
Email: [log in to unmask]
Tel: 949-428-2672=20
Fax: 949-428-2671=20
------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----
-----
Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d
To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text =
in
the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet
To temporarily halt delivery of Technet send e-mail to =
[log in to unmask]: SET
Technet NOMAIL
To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to
[log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest
Search the archives of previous posts at: =
http://listserv.ipc.org/archives
Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm for =
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ext.5315
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---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 12:05:26 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: BGA Solderability
X-To: [log in to unmask]
Totally agree with you on SMDP's. Did much work on this in earlier days and
concur about stress. Question I always ask is why, but for this situation
though not needed as such, does anyone use solder mask defined pads for
anything?
Earl
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=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 12:11:11 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: PCB materials
X-To: Ryan Grant <[log in to unmask]>
Another issue arises concerning "exotic" materials as Thermount with a very
high water absorption percentage and OSP's. Imaging using this material with
its associated pre lamination prepreg and core bake and its baking
requirement before assembly, especially in a very uncontrolled high humidity
situation, while using OSP's.
Also, think about using Thermount with plastic BGA's. It's CTE/TCE (changed
for me in 1972 Werner just like ft./lbs to lbs/ft.) is lower than ceramic in
the x/y axis. Negative CTE/TCE I believe it is called.
MoonMan
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Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 13:23:00 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Kris Keating <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Kris Keating <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: abrasive for cleaning PCB surfaces
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Hello,
I am having trouble finding a distributor of abrasive "erasers" for cleaning
PCBs. We have been using a CRC Industries "Gomme Abrasive 1445" product
from France. The eraser is a black rectangle similar to an eraser, but it
contains some type of metal fiber. It is the best thing we have been able
to find for cleaning oxidation from immersion tin surfaces. We are now
having trouble getting the quantities we need from France. Does anyone know
where else we can find this or a similar product? I would appreciate any
feedback.
Thanks,
Kris
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Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 11:48:29 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Houston, Terri" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Houston, Terri" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: BGA Solderability
X-To: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Earl, there's a big motivation to use solder mask defined pads when you're
squeezing lines in between pads because you don't have to account much for
soldermask tolerance.
With non-soldermask defined pads, you have to consider where your soldermask
will wind up (usually a 2 mil tolerance). Soldermask shouldn't be on the
pads, and it shouldn't shift so much that you have an exposed line next to a
solder ball pad. For this reason, it was the original design recommendation
(in 1990) for boards using BGAs.
Once the reliability data got out, non-soldermask defined pads became the
preferred option.
Terri
-----Original Message-----
From: Earl Moon [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 1:05 PM
To: [log in to unmask]; Houston, Terri
Subject: Re: BGA Solderability
Totally agree with you on SMDP's. Did much work on this in earlier days and
concur about stress. Question I always ask is why, but for this situation
though not needed as such, does anyone use solder mask defined pads for
anything?
Earl
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Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 12:44:36 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Tim McQuay <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Tim McQuay <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Conformal coating / gluing
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Hi Folks:
We have a debate regarding sequence of operations when we glue down
components and apply conformal coating to the same board. The IPC-A-610C
does not cover this and I have not been able to locate any other info.
Basicly we want to know, do we glue first or do we coat first. Can someone
please tell us if the bond between silicone glue and conformal coating is as
strong as between silicone glue and PCB uncoated surface. We are concerned
that heavy components, such as the large caps on some of our boards, would
not be well supported if bonding is done after conformal coating.
We have our own bias but we wanted to hear an outside opinion and/or see a
standard on the topic. The adhesive and coating we use are listed below.
3-1744 (DOW), SILICONE ADHESIVE - for staking big components
KE3421 (SHIN-ETSU), SLCN BRD COAT - conformal board coating
Thanks
Tim McQuay
Training Coordinator
Vansco Electronics
Fax: 204-474-1674
e-mail: [log in to unmask]
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Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 13:57:10 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Phil Nutting <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Phil Nutting <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: abrasive for cleaning PCB surfaces
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kris,
Try Cratex products. They make a whole line of rubberized abrasives in =
all shapes, sizes and grits.
http://www.cratex.com/rubindx.htm
Phil Nutting
-----Original Message-----
From: Kris Keating [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 1:23 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] abrasive for cleaning PCB surfaces
Hello,
I am having trouble finding a distributor of abrasive "erasers" for =
cleaning
PCBs. We have been using a CRC Industries "Gomme Abrasive 1445" product
from France. The eraser is a black rectangle similar to an eraser, but =
it
contains some type of metal fiber. It is the best thing we have been =
able
to find for cleaning oxidation from immersion tin surfaces. We are now
having trouble getting the quantities we need from France. Does anyone =
know
where else we can find this or a similar product? I would appreciate =
any
feedback.
Thanks,
Kris
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in
the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet
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SET Technet NOMAIL
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[log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest
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http://listserv.ipc.org/archives
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additional
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ext.5315
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Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 11:47:16 -0700
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Eddie Rocha <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: power traces
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Is there a rule of thumb for the number of vias required to connect
power traces on two different layers? i.e. a via every .250"?
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Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 12:47:41 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
rgrant <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: rgrant <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: BGA Solderability
X-To: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Earl, you will notice practically all PBGAs use SMDPs on the BT laminate
(package side). One can presume this is to improve yields during BGA
package assembly by keeping the solder balls from rolling off their pad
before attachment.
Ryan Grant
-----Original Message-----
From: Earl Moon [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 11:05 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] BGA Solderability
Totally agree with you on SMDP's. Did much work on this in earlier days and
concur about stress. Question I always ask is why, but for this situation
though not needed as such, does anyone use solder mask defined pads for
anything?
Earl
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Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 20:06:31 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Hinners Hans M Civ WRALC/LUGE <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Hinners Hans M Civ WRALC/LUGE <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Conformal coating / gluing
X-To: Tim McQuay <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hey Tim,
As I recently learned from good ole Graham . . .
Silicone doesn't like to stick to anything including other silicone
products.
I ran into the same dilemma you are facing and changed both the adhesive to
an epoxy (DP-125 EG) and the conformal coating to polyurethane.
Most silicone adhesives recommend using a primer (SS 4004 for instance) to
add adhesion to the pcb surface.
And as always, all disclaimers apply - this is not an implied endorsement of
any product or service.
Hans
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hans M. Hinners
Electronics Engineer (who used to do Fab)
Warner Robins - Air Logistics Center (WR-ALC/LUGE)
226 Cochran Street
Robins AFB GA 31098-1622
mailto:[log in to unmask]
Com: (478) 926 - 5224
Fax: (478) 926 - 4911
DSN Prefix: 468
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim McQuay [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 1:45 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Conformal coating / gluing
Hi Folks:
We have a debate regarding sequence of operations when we glue down
components and apply conformal coating to the same board. The IPC-A-610C
does not cover this and I have not been able to locate any other info.
Basicly we want to know, do we glue first or do we coat first. Can someone
please tell us if the bond between silicone glue and conformal coating is as
strong as between silicone glue and PCB uncoated surface. We are concerned
that heavy components, such as the large caps on some of our boards, would
not be well supported if bonding is done after conformal coating.
We have our own bias but we wanted to hear an outside opinion and/or see a
standard on the topic. The adhesive and coating we use are listed below.
3-1744 (DOW), SILICONE ADHESIVE - for staking big components
KE3421 (SHIN-ETSU), SLCN BRD COAT - conformal board coating
Thanks
Tim McQuay
Training Coordinator
Vansco Electronics
Fax: 204-474-1674
e-mail: [log in to unmask]
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Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 14:19:56 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
[log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Fire Up for IPC Annual Meeting 2002
X-To: [log in to unmask]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Fire Up? In May? For a November meeting? Methinks thou jumpest the gun
Sire.....
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Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 14:18:38 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: BGA Solderability
X-To: [log in to unmask]
Terri,
Yes, I know and for all the wrong reasons one of which you stated. I'm also
concerned about gasketing though not really, true pad definition (as part of
the SM definition because of loose tolerences associated with imaging and
stripping), and justplain wasted effort.
The only thing I see of value is holding down what otherwise should be very
"firmly" attached pads. TI, though I should quit picking on them, likes this
stuff because their reflow profiles, recommended, are so long and tedious
they often lift pads.
I send this to Ryan as well and offer thanks to his input.
Thanks,
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Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 14:21:44 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: BGA Solderability
X-To: Ryan Grant <[log in to unmask]>
Ryan,
I'm with you but sounds like presumption is defective, don't you think. See
my posting to Terri above. There is no need, in my objective opinion, to use
solder mask defined pads but to hold down poorly bonded pads on whatever
substrate material.
Earl
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Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 15:09:53 -0500
Reply-To: "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Connie Korth <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Reptron
Subject: Re: Conformal coating / gluing
X-To: Tim McQuay <[log in to unmask]>
Hi Tim,
My recommendation would be to glue the parts that need to be secure and
then conformal coat after. If you glue after, all you will really be
gluing is the coating that is on the component. The glue won't adhere to
the coating like it will to the PCB. I don't believe there is anything in
the 610 that specifies.
Just my opinion.
Connie M. Korth
Quality Specialist
Reptron Mfg. Services
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim McQuay [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 12:45 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Conformal coating / gluing
Hi Folks:
We have a debate regarding sequence of operations when we glue down
components and apply conformal coating to the same board. The IPC-A-610C
does not cover this and I have not been able to locate any other info.
Basicly we want to know, do we glue first or do we coat first. Can someone
please tell us if the bond between silicone glue and conformal coating is
as
strong as between silicone glue and PCB uncoated surface. We are concerned
that heavy components, such as the large caps on some of our boards, would
not be well supported if bonding is done after conformal coating.
We have our own bias but we wanted to hear an outside opinion and/or see a
standard on the topic. The adhesive and coating we use are listed below.
3-1744 (DOW), SILICONE ADHESIVE - for staking big components
KE3421 (SHIN-ETSU), SLCN BRD COAT - conformal board coating
Thanks
Tim McQuay
Training Coordinator
Vansco Electronics
Fax: 204-474-1674
e-mail: [log in to unmask]
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Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 16:25:30 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Tom Parkinson - Quality System Manager <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Tom Parkinson - Quality System Manager <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: WinTronics, Inc.
Subject: Re: Conformal coating / gluing
X-To: Tim McQuay <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hello Tim,
We have a customer (military) that had us bonding some larger parts to
the PCB using RTV silicone. Then when the customer tried conformal
coating after they finished and tested - they had big concerns that the
coating would not adhere properly to the silicone RTV in the long run.
They eliminated the RTV in the next set we built. They said there is a
compatibility problem with the type of conformal coating that was
specified (don't know what they were using). You may want to contact
the coating company and see what they say about silicone based bonding
material and how it will react with the conformal coating.
Tom
Tim McQuay wrote:
>
> Hi Folks:
> We have a debate regarding sequence of operations when we glue down
> components and apply conformal coating to the same board. The IPC-A-610C
> does not cover this and I have not been able to locate any other info.
> Basicly we want to know, do we glue first or do we coat first. Can someone
> please tell us if the bond between silicone glue and conformal coating is as
> strong as between silicone glue and PCB uncoated surface. We are concerned
> that heavy components, such as the large caps on some of our boards, would
> not be well supported if bonding is done after conformal coating.
> We have our own bias but we wanted to hear an outside opinion and/or see a
> standard on the topic. The adhesive and coating we use are listed below.
> 3-1744 (DOW), SILICONE ADHESIVE - for staking big components
> KE3421 (SHIN-ETSU), SLCN BRD COAT - conformal board coating
>
> Thanks
> Tim McQuay
> Training Coordinator
> Vansco Electronics
> Fax: 204-474-1674
> e-mail: [log in to unmask]
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d
> To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in
> the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet
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> Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives
> Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm for additional
> information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-509-9700 ext.5315
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 16:43:36 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
tony steinke <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: tony steinke <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: TM650
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Techies,
Can any one tell me if when performing Tg/DSC testing
per IPC TM650 that it is a requirement to perform these
tests under nitrogen atmosphere. It does not state so in the=20
IPC document but have been informed that it is standard.
Thanks
Tony Steinke
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Techies,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Can any one tell me if when performing =
Tg/DSC=20
testing</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>per IPC TM650 that it is a requirement =
to perform=20
these</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>tests under nitrogen atmosphere. It =
does not state=20
so in the </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>IPC document but have been informed =
that it is=20
standard.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Tony Steinke</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 16:32:38 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Brian McCrory <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Brian McCrory <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Delsen Testing Laboratories, Inc.
Subject: Re: TM650
X-To: tony steinke <[log in to unmask]>
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tony steinke wrote:
> Techies,Can any one tell me if when performing Tg/DSC
> testingper IPC TM650 that it is a requirement to perform
> thesetests under nitrogen atmosphere. It does not state so in
> theIPC document but have been informed that it is
> standard.ThanksTony Steinke
Tony,
It is standard practice to use inert gas, usually nitrogen, to
purge the DSC cell when determining the Tg of laminates. This is
to avoid interferences from possible oxidative reactions.
IPC-TM-650, Method 2.4.25, Rev. C specifies a nitrogen gas flow
in 4.2 of the equipment/apparatus section.
We are in the process of finalizing the revision this and a
number of other methods used to support IPC-4101A. We would
welcome your input to make the method clearer. Contact me
offline if you'd like to help.
--
Brian
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<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p>tony steinke wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><style></style>
<font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Techies,</font></font><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Can
any one tell me if when performing Tg/DSC testing</font></font><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>per
IPC TM650 that it is a requirement to perform these</font></font><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>tests
under nitrogen atmosphere. It does not state so in the</font></font><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>IPC
document but have been informed that it is standard.</font></font><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Thanks</font></font><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Tony
Steinke</font></font></blockquote>
<p><br>Tony,
<p>It is standard practice to use inert gas, usually nitrogen, to purge
the DSC cell when determining the Tg of laminates. This is to avoid
interferences from possible oxidative reactions. IPC-TM-650, Method
2.4.25, Rev. C specifies a nitrogen gas flow in 4.2 of the equipment/apparatus
section.
<p>We are in the process of finalizing the revision this and a number of
other methods used to support IPC-4101A. We would welcome your input
to make the method clearer. Contact me offline if you'd like to help.
<p>--
<br>Brian
</body>
</html>
--------------141E6594998B7210E4810BAF--
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Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 07:58:55 +0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Conformal coating / gluing
X-To: Tim McQuay <[log in to unmask]>
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Tim,
You definitely have to bond before you coat. I dare say your coating is a
similar material to the adhesive, but if you bond to the coating, you only
have a thin layer of material to attach to that itself relies of how well
it is keyed to the board surface. Your heavier components will encourage
the coating to start peeling off the board as they pull at their bonds.
The bare board surface offers a much thicker, stronger surface to which to
bond that won't peel from another surface.
Peter
Tim McQuay <[log in to unmask]> 24/05/2002 01:44 AM
Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
Please respond to "TechNet E-Mail Forum."; Please respond to Tim McQuay
To: [log in to unmask]
cc: (bcc: DUNCAN Peter/Asst Prin Engr/ST Aero/ST Group)
Subject: [TN] Conformal coating / gluing
Hi Folks:
We have a debate regarding sequence of operations when we glue down
components and apply conformal coating to the same board. The IPC-A-610C
does not cover this and I have not been able to locate any other info.
Basicly we want to know, do we glue first or do we coat first. Can someone
please tell us if the bond between silicone glue and conformal coating is
as
strong as between silicone glue and PCB uncoated surface. We are concerned
that heavy components, such as the large caps on some of our boards, would
not be well supported if bonding is done after conformal coating.
We have our own bias but we wanted to hear an outside opinion and/or see a
standard on the topic. The adhesive and coating we use are listed below.
3-1744 (DOW), SILICONE ADHESIVE - for staking big components
KE3421 (SHIN-ETSU), SLCN BRD COAT - conformal board coating
Thanks
Tim McQuay
Training Coordinator
Vansco Electronics
Fax: 204-474-1674
e-mail: [log in to unmask]
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Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 21:51:58 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Film Capacitors...geeze!
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Hi all!
Just started building an assembly that calls out film capacitors to be used
in 64-locations on the board. Processed the assemblies in a typical manner as
one would for most SMT assemblies, and experienced massive failures of these
caps. They are PPS films. Unfortunately, this has been a first for me...never
had to process these caps before. They are delaminating...the layers of film
are flaking off from the caps.
Can anybody tell me how I should assemble these devils? Went to the web page
of the manufacturer, and they have a recommended reflow profile that is
2-mins, 45-seconds long...to me, that violates the specifactions that Kester
recommends for their paste to perform...
Is using SMT film caps a bad idea? ( I think I know the answer, but I just
want a confirming opinion...)
-Steve Gregory-
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Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 15:01:35 +1000
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
David Bailey <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: David Bailey <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Metal core PCB's
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Hello all
I am interested in the feasibility and cost effectively of a metal cored PCB
substraight. I have a potential application for the integration of the
circuit and the products main mechanical backbone into one.
FR4 laminated either side of an aluminium or a steel sheet?
Double sided Flex laminated to either side?
Your thoughts, actual experiences, potential suppliers, pitfalls and cost
are all of interest to me.
Regards
David Bailey
Team Leader - Manufacturing Development, Vision Systems Fire and Security
Limited
495 Blackburn Rd, Mt Waverley, Victoria, 3149 Australia
Ph (613) 9211 7338 Mb 0416 026 252 E-mail [log in to unmask]
IMPORTANT - This e-mail and any attachments may be confidential and
privileged. If received in error, please contact me and delete all copies.
Before opening or using attachments, check them for viruses and defects. I
take no responsibility for viral infections.
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D613345204-24052002>Hello=20
all</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D613345204-24052002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D613345204-24052002>I am =
interested in=20
the feasibility and cost effectively of a metal cored PCB substraight. I =
have a=20
potential application for the integration of the circuit and the =
products main=20
mechanical backbone into one. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D613345204-24052002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D613345204-24052002>FR4 =
laminated either=20
side of an aluminium or a steel sheet?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D613345204-24052002>Double =
sided Flex=20
laminated to either side?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D613345204-24052002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D613345204-24052002>Your =
thoughts,=20
actual experiences, potential suppliers, pitfalls and cost are all of =
interest=20
to me.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D613345204-24052002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D613345204-24052002>Regards</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D613345204-24052002></SPAN></FONT><I><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans =
MS"><FONT=20
color=3D#800000 size=3D5><STRONG>David =
Bailey<BR></STRONG></FONT></FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"><STRONG><SPAN class=3D997171900-18102001>Team =
Leader -=20
M</SPAN>anufacturing</STRONG> </FONT><STRONG>Development<SPAN=20
class=3D997171900-18102001>,</SPAN> Vision Systems Fire and Security=20
Limited<BR>495 Blackburn Rd, Mt Waverley, Victoria, 3149=20
Australia</STRONG></I><BR><B></B><B><I>Ph (613) 9211 7338 Mb 0416 026 =
252=20
E-mail<U></U></I></B><I><U></U></I><U> <FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff>[log in to unmask]</FONT></U><BR><BR><B></B><B><I=
><FONT=20
color=3D#ff0000>IMPORTANT - This e-mail and any attachments may be =
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and privileged. If received in error, please contact me and delete all =
copies.=20
Before opening or using attachments, check them for viruses and defects. =
I take=20
no responsibility for viral infections.</FONT> </I></B></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 07:43:44 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Atkinson, Neil" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Atkinson, Neil" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: really big boards
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Another company to try is Spemco - try e-mailing Phil Dobson at:
<mailto:[log in to unmask]> [log in to unmask]
They manufacture boards up to 3 Metres in length.(9.8 Feet)!
Neil
---Original Message-----
From: Dougal Stewart [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 22 May 2002 16:37
Subject: Re: really big boards
Another UK alternative is a new company called RT circuits (website
www.rtcircuits.com <http://www.rtcircuits.com> ) who may be able to help, in
volume ! I suggest that you contact through their website (and mention my
name!) If you want up to 6 x 2, then try Viasystems Mommers in The
Netherlands (who can also drill it), alternatively contact Photofab in the
UK tel +44 1480 475831 (web address www.photofab.co.uk
<http://www.photofab.co.uk> ), who etch lift doors among other things, and
have the biggest etcher I have ever seen. (again mention my name....)
Dougal Stewart
email: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
phone: +44 1896 822204
mob: +44 7984 629667
----- Original Message -----
From: Guy Ramsey <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 12:14 PM
Subject: [TN] really big boards
Anybody know where we can get quotes on 4 by 8 boards. Yes, four foot by
eight foot boards. We do not need through hole plating but we do need images
on both sides, oh yeah and thin 1mm or so.
Guy Ramsey
Senior Technician / Instructor
<outbind://56/www.aciusa.org>
E-Mail: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Ph: (610) 362-1200 x107
Fax: (610) 362-1290
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>They manufacture boards up to 3 =
Metres in
length.(9.8 Feet)!</span></font><font color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font><=
/p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font><=
/p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>Neil</span></font><font =
color=3Dblue><span
style=3D'color:blue'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dblue face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:blue'><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>---Original Message-----<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> Dougal Stewart
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> 22 May 2002 =
16:37<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: really big =
boards</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dblack
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Another
UK alternative is a new company called RT circuits (website <a
href=3D"http://www.rtcircuits.com">www.rtcircuits.com</a>) who may be =
able to
help, in volume ! I suggest that you contact through their website (and =
mention
my name!) If you want up to 6 x 2, then try Viasystems Mommers in The
Netherlands (who can also drill it), alternatively contact Photofab in =
the UK
tel +44 1480 475831 (web address <a =
href=3D"http://www.photofab.co.uk">www.photofab.co.uk</a>),
who etch lift doors among other things, and have the biggest etcher I =
have ever
seen. (again mention my name....)</span></font><font =
color=3Dblack><span
style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font>=
</p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=3Dblack><span =
style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font>=
</p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Dougal
Stewart</span></font><font color=3Dblack><span =
style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=3Dblack><span =
style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font>=
</p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>email: <a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
com</a><br>
phone: +44 1896 822204<br>
mob: +44 7984 629667</span></font><font =
color=3Dblack><span
style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font>=
</p>
<div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid black 3.0pt;padding:0in 0in =
0in 8.0pt'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:43.5pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 3.0pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 8.0pt'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblack
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>-----
Original Message ----- </span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;mso-color-alt:wi=
ndowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:43.5pt;background:#E4E4E4;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:so=
lid black 3.0pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 8.0pt'><b><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblack
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>
<div style=3D'font-color:black'>From:</span></font></b><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblack
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" title=3D"[log in to unmask]">Guy =
Ramsey</a> </span></font></div>
<font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p=
>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:43.5pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 3.0pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 8.0pt'><b><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblack
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" =
title=3D"[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a> </span></font><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:43.5pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 3.0pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 8.0pt'><b><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblack
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> Friday, May =
17, 2002
12:14 PM</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;mso-color-alt:wi=
ndowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:43.5pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 3.0pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 8.0pt'><b><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblack
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblack
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> [TN]
really big boards</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;mso-color-alt:wi=
ndowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:43.5pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 3.0pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 8.0pt'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=3Dblack><span =
style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font>=
</p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:43.5pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 3.0pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 8.0pt'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblack
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Anybody
know where we can get quotes on 4 by 8 boards. Yes, four foot by eight =
foot
boards. We do not need through hole plating but we do need images on =
both
sides, oh yeah and thin 1mm or so. </span></font><font =
color=3Dblack><span
style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font>=
</p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:43.5pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 3.0pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 8.0pt'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=3Dblack><span =
style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font>=
</p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:43.5pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 3.0pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 8.0pt'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>Guy Ramsey</span></font><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:43.5pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 3.0pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 8.0pt'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Senior
Technician / Instructor</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o=
:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:43.5pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 3.0pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 8.0pt'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><a
href=3D"outbind://56/www.aciusa.org"><span =
style=3D'text-decoration:none;
text-underline:none'><img border=3D0 width=3D144 height=3D85 =
id=3D"_x0000_i1025"
src=3D"cid:453180811@17052002-17f2"></span></a> </span></font><font=
size=3D2
color=3Dblack><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o=
:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:43.5pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 3.0pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 8.0pt'><font size=3D1 =
color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;color:black'>E-Mail: <a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a></span></font><=
font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'> =
<br>
</span></font><font size=3D1 color=3Dblack><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;color:black'>Ph:
(610) 362-1200 x107</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'> <br>
</span></font><font size=3D1 color=3Dblack><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;color:black'>Fax:
(610) 362-1290</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o=
:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:43.5pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 3.0pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 8.0pt'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:43.5pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 3.0pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 8.0pt'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=3Dblack><span =
style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font>=
</p>
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=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 08:15:25 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Atkinson, Neil" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Atkinson, Neil" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ASSY: Reflow for Through-Hole Devices
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Have you considered press-fit connectors or intrusive reflow?
Neil
-----Original Message-----
From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 22 May 2002 23:33
Subject: Re: ASSY: Reflow for Through-Hole Devices
Hi Jack!
Many of the solder companies make preforms, kinda' tedious to deal with
though. Depending on what kind of PTH component it is, there is a company
called TEKA (http://www.tekais.com) that make headers, sockets, connectors,
that have what they call SBL (Solder Bearing Lead) Technology.
I've got some boards here that have double-sided SMT and is NOT wave-able
due to the design, and has PTH headers that go through both sides of the
board and would have to be hand soldered...but not anymore They're fixing me
up with some headers and sockets that will be dropped in and reflowed along
with the SMT.
I've used these before at another company when we built PC104
products...they work great!
-Steve Gregory-
One of my colleagues here is thinking their must be some kind of solder
ring, or collar, or donut shaped thing that you can drop over the leads of
a (bottom mounted) through-hole device, and then when you reflow the board
the donuts melt and form a fillet for the PTH device at the same time.
Does anyone do this?
If this is feasible, where can I find out more (and get a source for the
solder rings)?
Jack
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle15><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>H=
ave you
considered press-fit connectors or intrusive =
reflow?<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle15><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><=
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<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblack
face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> [log in to unmask]
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> 22 May 2002 =
23:33<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: ASSY: =
Reflow for
Through-Hole Devices</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblack
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Hi
Jack!<br>
<br>
Many of the solder companies make preforms, kinda' tedious to deal with =
though.
Depending on what kind of PTH component it is, there is a company =
called TEKA
(http://www.tekais.com) that make headers, sockets, connectors, that =
have what
they call SBL (Solder Bearing Lead) Technology.<br>
<br>
I've got some boards here that have double-sided SMT and is NOT =
wave-able due
to the design, and has PTH headers that go through both sides of the =
board and
would have to be hand soldered...but not anymore They're fixing me up =
with some
headers and sockets that will be dropped in and reflowed along with the =
SMT.<br>
<br>
I've used these before at another company when we built PC104 =
products...they
work great!<br>
<br>
-Steve Gregory-<br>
<br>
<br style=3D'mso-special-character:line-break'>
<![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]><br =
style=3D'mso-special-character:line-break'>
<![endif]></span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;mso-color-alt:wi=
ndowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 3.0pt;padding:0in 0in =
0in 8.0pt'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:43.5pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid blue =
3.0pt;padding:
0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 8.0pt'><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>One of my =
colleagues
here is thinking their must be some kind of solder<br>
ring, or collar, or donut shaped thing that you can drop over the leads =
of<br>
a (bottom mounted) through-hole device, and then when you reflow the =
board<br>
the donuts melt and form a fillet for the PTH device at the same =
time.<br>
<br>
Does anyone do this?<br>
If this is feasible, where can I find out more (and get a source for =
the<br>
solder rings)?<br>
<br>
Jack</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:=
p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=3Dblack><span =
style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font>=
</p>
</div>
</body>
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Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 09:31:50 +0200
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Stefano Riccardi <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Stefano Riccardi <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Vapor phase
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
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Hi all!
We are currently looking for the assembling of a double side SMT - one =
side THT (High pin count connectors) board, with a lot of BGA.
An assembler proposed us the use of vapor Phase reflow soldering.
Any comment about this method?
Can someone tell me where I can find informations (books, www, =
publications) about the vapor phase soldering?
Thanks!
------=_NextPart_000_019E_01C20305.D500E280
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi all!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>We are currently looking for the =
assembling of a=20
double side SMT - one side THT (High pin count connectors) board, with a =
lot of=20
BGA.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>An assembler proposed us the use of =
vapor Phase=20
reflow soldering.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Any comment about this =
method?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Can someone tell me where I =
can find=20
informations (books, www, publications) about the vapor phase=20
soldering?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks!</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 10:51:20 +0200
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Zweigart, Siegmund" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Zweigart, Siegmund" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: no clean paste for High frequencies
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Hello
I am starting an evaluation regarding no clean paste for high frequency
applications (more than 10 Ghz). Are there any informations avaible?
Siggi
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Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 11:54:29 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Graham Naisbitt <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Graham Naisbitt <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Conformal coating / gluing
X-To: Tim McQuay <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Tim,
I can only add to what others have said, but first, another reminder of
the message from Brian Ellis:
The Problem with Silicone Conformal Coatings.
Silicone coatings are a wee bittie of a con, IMHO (sorry, Dow Corning et
al.!). Their behaviour under humid conditions is roughly 10-20 times
worse, as a rule than other types. Let me expand on this sweeping
statement. Single component silicones usually require the presence of
free hydroxyl radicals to crosslink. That means that they will not cure
in a perfectly dry atmosphere. In this sense, before curing, they are
hygroscopic. After curing, the hygroscopicity is reduced, but they are
porous (otherwise, the trapped humidity would not have escaped). Two
component products use other mechanisms of curing, so are less
hygroscopic prior to curing. However, they are almost equally porous.
Other polymers, such as acrylics, epoxies and polyurethanes use other
mechanisms for curing and are considerably less porous (but they are all
porous).
Many years ago, I cast discs of typical products (the results are
reported in my book), which I used as a diaphragm between a humid and a
dry compartment. The comparison was striking.
However, in the popular imagination, silicones are the nec plus ultra
because the are not wet by water in the liquid phase, without
consideration of its behaviour in the gaseous phase.
So what can happen in worst case conditions? Let's imagine you have a
tiny salt crystal (or any other hygroscopic contaminant) stuck between
two conductors. Without a coating, the scenario is obvious, as soon as
the circuit is put into service in a humid environment. Aha!, you say,
that is why we coat, so that it would stop such a catastrophe. Not so!
The zone of polymer close to the crystal will haves it absorbed humidity
sucked into our salt crystal, drying it out. But, as nature abhors a
vacuum, so do polymers like to strike a humidity equilibrium with the
surrounding air, so more humidity is absorbed and the process continues.
But, you may say that a tiny speck of humidity not bridging conductors
is relatively harmless. Again, not so. As more humidity is absorbed by
the crystal, osmotic pressure starts to rise and will start to lift the
coating off the substrate and this process may continue to form a humid
pool between conductors and, WHAM! This process is called vesication and
is more common than you think. It is illustrated graphically and by
photographs in my book. The result is sometimes also called mealing, not
to be confused with measling.
So your coating has only delayed a catastrophe and the delay time with a
silicone coating is only a fraction than with other coating types. One
hopes that cycling temperatures and humidities are such that the
catastrophe will never happen but the best way of assessing a minimum
risk is by ensuring that the minute crystal is never there, in the first
place, by a thorough and effective cleaning before coating. This was the
philosophy behind the long-defunct MIL-P-28809, but is still very valid.
There may be some **very rare** exceptions to the application of this
rule, which are too complex to discuss just now but you are safe in
assuming that a proven cleaning quality is a sine qua non to conformal
coating.
Acrylic is better than silicones in this respect and electrically, but
not so good in terms of chemical resistance.
Another little known feature about silicones is that they transmit shock
better than most other materials. If you underfill an IC with a silicone
and the board is subjected to a shock test, the ICs will suffer more
than with, say, an epoxy underfill. This is because silicones are
virtually incompressible at high rates of stress (hence your
super-bouncing ball).
....and my 2 pennorth.....
Silicone materials do not readily stick to anything, including other
silicones. Furthermore, de-wetting will be evidenced when other coating
types are applied over a silicone of almost any type: underfills,
adhesives, pre-pregs, buffer and staking compounds.
I do recall that some years ago, 10,000 military assemblies had to be
scrapped because of a silicone pre-preg used to bond the board to an
aluminium heat sink causing massive de-wetting. Cost of each assembly -
$15,000 each.....and that was in 1984!
Most military users to my experience, now use physical straps for large
components. I believe that Loctite have some good silicone free staking
compounds. You might care to investigate further....
Hope this helps.
Regards Graham Naisbitt
[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Concoat ANNOUNCE their acquisition of the former Multicore SPCID
business.
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Fax: +44 1276 691227
Mobile: +44 79 6858 2121
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Tim McQuay
> Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 18:45
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] Conformal coating / gluing
>
>
> Hi Folks:
> We have a debate regarding sequence of operations when we
> glue down components and apply conformal coating to the same
> board. The IPC-A-610C does not cover this and I have not been
> able to locate any other info. Basicly we want to know, do we
> glue first or do we coat first. Can someone please tell us if
> the bond between silicone glue and conformal coating is as
> strong as between silicone glue and PCB uncoated surface. We
> are concerned that heavy components, such as the large caps
> on some of our boards, would not be well supported if bonding
> is done after conformal coating. We have our own bias but we
> wanted to hear an outside opinion and/or see a standard on
> the topic. The adhesive and coating we use are listed below.
> 3-1744 (DOW), SILICONE ADHESIVE - for staking big components
> KE3421 (SHIN-ETSU), SLCN BRD COAT - conformal board coating
>
> Thanks
> Tim McQuay
> Training Coordinator
> Vansco Electronics
> Fax: 204-474-1674
> e-mail: [log in to unmask]
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> -------------------
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Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 07:01:53 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Guy Ramsey <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Guy Ramsey <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Film Capacitors...geeze!
X-To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Is reflow taking them out or cleaning? I have used a lot of SMT film caps
without problems but they don't like cleaning. DI water ok, IPA ok, very hot
saponified water or other solvents bad.
Haven't see them just come apart during reflow.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 9:52 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] Film Capacitors...geeze!
>
>
> Hi all!
>
> Just started building an assembly that calls out film capacitors
> to be used
> in 64-locations on the board. Processed the assemblies in a
> typical manner as
> one would for most SMT assemblies, and experienced massive
> failures of these
> caps. They are PPS films. Unfortunately, this has been a first
> for me...never
> had to process these caps before. They are delaminating...the
> layers of film
> are flaking off from the caps.
>
> Can anybody tell me how I should assemble these devils? Went to
> the web page
> of the manufacturer, and they have a recommended reflow profile that is
> 2-mins, 45-seconds long...to me, that violates the specifactions
> that Kester
> recommends for their paste to perform...
>
> Is using SMT film caps a bad idea? ( I think I know the answer, but I just
> want a confirming opinion...)
>
> -Steve Gregory-
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------
> Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d
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> 847-509-9700 ext.5315
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------
>
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Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 14:56:50 +0300
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Brian Ellis <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Brian Ellis <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Vapor phase
X-To: Stefano Riccardi <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Stefano
Vapour phase soldering is an excellent asymptotic and anaerobic
soldering process. It has two main disadvantages:
- the primary fluid used costs a fortune
- both the primary and, if used, secondary fluid vapours (PFCs) are
greenhouse gases and have atmospheric lifetimes counting into the
thousands of years and have global warming potentials up to 10,000 times
worse than CO2.
PFCs have been targeted under the Kyoto Protocol but how they are
handled is up to individual governments, as the measures to be taken are
a basket with freedom how to handle specific global warmers.
Brian
> Stefano Riccardi wrote:
>
> Hi all!
> We are currently looking for the assembling of a double side SMT - one
> side THT (High pin count connectors) board, with a lot of BGA.
> An assembler proposed us the use of vapor Phase reflow soldering.
> Any comment about this method?
> Can someone tell me where I can find informations (books, www,
> publications) about the vapor phase soldering?
>
> Thanks!
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Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 07:04:12 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
[log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Film Capacitors...geeze!
X-To: [log in to unmask]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Steve,
When you say "massive failures", are you talking electrical or just the
delamination problem?
Some of our military products use PPS caps, and we see delamination after
going through water wash. There are many layers of the plastic film to
protect the dielectric layers underneath. We had similar concerns about
the delam so we have run 2000 temperature cycles, from -54C to +125C on 200
of various package sizes of these parts with 50% of the rated voltage
applied, postcoated and unpostcoated, without any failures or increase in
leakage current. We have since allowed for delamination of these parts in
our component specification.
These are great capacitors electrically, that can have higher capacitance
values without the leakage issues of ceramic caps.
Jim Carlson
Rockwell Collins Reliability Engineer
[log in to unmask]@ipc.org> on 05/23/2002 08:51:58 PM
Please respond to "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>; Please respond
to [log in to unmask]
Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
cc:
Subject: [TN] Film Capacitors...geeze!
Hi all!
Just started building an assembly that calls out film capacitors to be used
in 64-locations on the board. Processed the assemblies in a typical manner
as
one would for most SMT assemblies, and experienced massive failures of
these
caps. They are PPS films. Unfortunately, this has been a first for
me...never
had to process these caps before. They are delaminating...the layers of
film
are flaking off from the caps.
Can anybody tell me how I should assemble these devils? Went to the web
page
of the manufacturer, and they have a recommended reflow profile that is
2-mins, 45-seconds long...to me, that violates the specifactions that
Kester
recommends for their paste to perform...
Is using SMT film caps a bad idea? ( I think I know the answer, but I just
want a confirming opinion...)
-Steve Gregory-
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ext.5315
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=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 07:32:53 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
[log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: no clean paste for High frequencies
X-To: [log in to unmask]
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There were a couple of papers presented at the most recent APEX conference
that may help you:
Manufacturing Process Considerations for Wireless Products by Anton Krycuk and Charles Patterson, Manufacturers' Services, Ltd.
Salt Lake City, UT
RF Characterization of No-clean Solder Fluxes and Other SMT Materials by Michael J. Liberatore, Alpha Metals, Jersey City, NJ
Quantifying Parasitic Induced by No-Clean Solder Paste Residue at RF Frequencies by Jackie Csonka-Peeren and John Scharkov,
Celestica International Inc., Ontario, Canada
They should be in the APEX proceedings or you can contact the authors directly.
Doug Pauls
Rockwell Collins
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Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 08:34:08 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Sauer, Steven T." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Sauer, Steven T." <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: D2PAK devices
X-To: Guy Ramsey <[log in to unmask]>
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Dependent on the pad termination geometry (most mfr recommendations have the
pad totally under the component), the bottom only termination may be the
correct correlation. But, if the pad is larger (extends beyond the
component flange -- which is what I prefer) than the comonent termination
area then both bottom only and flat lug should suffice.
-----Original Message-----
From: Guy Ramsey [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 10:33 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] D2PAK devices
I expect to see a fillet that complies with the requirements for a bottom
only termination.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Reid, Lorraine
> Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 7:41 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] D2PAK devices
>
>
> Can the learned people at Technet please advise on solder
> acceptance guidelines for D2PAK devices?
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Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 08:39:37 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Maddox, Allen T" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Maddox, Allen T" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: BGA Solderability
X-To: Denis Lefebvre <[log in to unmask]>
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Denis,
I find this as an ongoing challenge that is complicated even further by
ourselves. We all have good information and share our experience and ideas
the best that we can, but........
I find that a lot of the time information on what works and what doesn't is
not recorded properly enough to use as data to substantiate our experiences,
and when it is, it's proprietary information and the property of a company
who won't, or can't, publish it's findings for us to use.
If anybody has a solution to this dilemma, please share.
Allen Maddox
Senior PCB Designer
GAI-Tronics
PO Box 1060
Reading, PA 19607-1060
Voice: 610-796-5854
FAX: 610-777-1870
www.gai-tronics.com
[log in to unmask]
-----Original Message-----
From: Denis Lefebvre [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 10:10 AM
Subject: BGA Solderability
<snip>
I am convinced that this will not fare well when they try to solder this
part, yet the engineer insists on doing it this way. What argument can I
make, with supporting data, to persuade him? Simply telling him that I know
it is poor practice isn't cutting it! [Adjusting tie..."I tell ya, we get no
respect!"]
Denis Lefebvre, C.I.D.
Senior PCB Designer
408-542-3832
Finisar Corporation
1308 Moffett Park Drive
Sunnyvale, CA 94086
www.finisar.com <http://www.finisar.com/>
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Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 08:58:50 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Film Capacitors...geeze!
X-To: [log in to unmask]
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Hi Jim!!!
It's just the delamination that I'm seeing now, haven't tested the assembly
yet, so I don't know for sure.
We washed the assemblies with DI water and Kyzen Aquanox XJN...is that a real
problem?
If these caps are really okay, I owe you big time Jim!! We had built up 20
assemblies and at 64-per, nobody is relishing the idea of having to rework
1,280 caps...
Thank-you so much!!!
-Steve Gregory-
> Steve,
>
> When you say "massive failures", are you talking electrical or just the
> delamination problem?
>
> Some of our military products use PPS caps, and we see delamination after
> going through water wash. There are many layers of the plastic film to
> protect the dielectric layers underneath. We had similar concerns about
> the delam so we have run 2000 temperature cycles, from -54C to +125C on 200
> of various package sizes of these parts with 50% of the rated voltage
> applied, postcoated and unpostcoated, without any failures or increase in
> leakage current. We have since allowed for delamination of these parts in
> our component specification.
>
> These are great capacitors electrically, that can have higher capacitance
> values without the leakage issues of ceramic caps.
>
> Jim Carlson
> Rockwell Collins Reliability Engineer
>
--part1_cb.229752e9.2a1f930a_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>Hi Jim!!!
<BR>
<BR>It's just the delamination that I'm seeing now, haven't tested the assembly yet, so I don't know for sure.
<BR>
<BR>We washed the assemblies with DI water and Kyzen Aquanox XJN...is that a real problem?
<BR>
<BR>If these caps are really okay, I owe you big time Jim!! We had built up 20 assemblies and at 64-per, nobody is relishing the idea of having to rework 1,280 caps...
<BR>
<BR>Thank-you so much!!!
<BR>
<BR>-Steve Gregory-
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Steve,
<BR>
<BR>When you say "massive failures", are you talking electrical or just the
<BR>delamination problem?
<BR>
<BR>Some of our military products use PPS caps, and we see delamination after
<BR>going through water wash. There are many layers of the plastic film to
<BR>protect the dielectric layers underneath. We had similar concerns about
<BR>the delam so we have run 2000 temperature cycles, from -54C to +125C on 200
<BR>of various package sizes of these parts with 50% of the rated voltage
<BR>applied, postcoated and unpostcoated, without any failures or increase in
<BR>leakage current. We have since allowed for delamination of these parts in
<BR>our component specification.
<BR>
<BR>These are great capacitors electrically, that can have higher capacitance
<BR>values without the leakage issues of ceramic caps.
<BR>
<BR>Jim Carlson
<BR>Rockwell Collins Reliability Engineer
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT></HTML>
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Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 09:34:55 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
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From: Joe Fjelstad <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Metal core PCB's
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Hello David,
Metal core is an excellent technology most often used for thermal management
but also for CTE matching/adjustment. The methods you have mentioned have all
been done as well as a few others. One of the important challenges is in
soldering the boards especially through hole devices due to the thermal sink
effect of the core.
Look at the mechanical issues as well especially the various CTE mismatches
between materials used in construction and mounted components, especially any
discrete chip devices as big difference in CTE can cause solder joints or
components to crack. (eg Al is ~23ppm/C and ceramic is ~7ppm/C)
You may wish to do a 2D or 3D finite element model to get a sense of how your
construction will perform mechanically before committing it to manufacture.
The thermal flow can also be modeled.
Cost effectiveness can only be measured with respect to your product. Metal
core is used only when it provides a solution otherwise not obtainable using
standard constructions. It is a value add proposition. Because they are
non-standard, metal core board will be more expensive.
Wrapping a two sided flex around a metal core is perhaps the easiest approach
but the complexity of your design should quickly let it be known if that is a
possibility.
Good luck with your project,
Joe
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>Hello David,
<BR>
<BR>Metal core is an excellent technology most often used for thermal management but also for CTE matching/adjustment. The methods you have mentioned have all been done as well as a few others. One of the important challenges is in soldering the boards especially through hole devices due to the thermal sink effect of the core.
<BR>
<BR>Look at the mechanical issues as well especially the various CTE mismatches between materials used in construction and mounted components, especially any discrete chip devices as big difference in CTE can cause solder joints or components to crack. (eg Al is ~23ppm/C and ceramic is ~7ppm/C)
<BR>
<BR>You may wish to do a 2D or 3D finite element model to get a sense of how your construction will perform mechanically before committing it to manufacture. The thermal flow can also be modeled.
<BR>
<BR>Cost effectiveness can only be measured with respect to your product. Metal core is used only when it provides a solution otherwise not obtainable using standard constructions. It is a value add proposition. Because they are non-standard, metal core board will be more expensive.
<BR>
<BR>Wrapping a two sided flex around a metal core is perhaps the easiest approach but the complexity of your design should quickly let it be known if that is a possibility.
<BR>
<BR>Good luck with your project,
<BR>Joe
<BR></FONT></HTML>
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Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 10:15:00 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Tostevin, Bruce" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Tostevin, Bruce" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Film Capacitors...geeze!
X-To: "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>
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Steve,
We saw this occur some years ago with smt film caps. The first few top
layers were peeling off in the aqueous. I sent a handful back to the
factory for examination. They responded that they were working on better
adhesion and process compatibility, but also that particular part had 90-100
layers of protective film, so losing a few layers wasn't a problem. We made
sure that no "flags" were flying off the parts, but otherwise left them
alone. They behaved fine, no problems with the customer. I don't recall
any problems with profile conflicts.
Bruce Tostevin
Benchmark Electronics
Hudson, NH
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [log in to unmask] [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 9:52 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] Film Capacitors...geeze!
>
> Hi all!
>
> Just started building an assembly that calls out film capacitors to be
> used
> in 64-locations on the board. Processed the assemblies in a typical manner
> as
> one would for most SMT assemblies, and experienced massive failures of
> these
> caps. They are PPS films. Unfortunately, this has been a first for
> me...never
> had to process these caps before. They are delaminating...the layers of
> film
> are flaking off from the caps.
>
> Can anybody tell me how I should assemble these devils? Went to the web
> page
> of the manufacturer, and they have a recommended reflow profile that is
> 2-mins, 45-seconds long...to me, that violates the specifactions that
> Kester
> recommends for their paste to perform...
>
> Is using SMT film caps a bad idea? ( I think I know the answer, but I just
> want a confirming opinion...)
>
> -Steve Gregory-
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
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> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
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Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 11:44:43 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Film Capacitors...geeze!
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hi All!
What a great forum this is! Yesterday I was all dejected thinking that we
were going to have to rework 1,280 capacitors, and today I realize that isn't
true, WOO-HOO!
I contacted the film cap engineer at Panasonic; Aki Tasaka, who provided me a
*.PDF file that detailed out reliability testing they had done on the caps
that had the film flaking off. The film caps that Panasonic makes has
50-layers of this film, and losing a few layers here and there doesn't create
a problem whatsoever...
As always, many thanks to you all!!
-Steve Gregory-
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>Hi All!
<BR>
<BR>What a great forum this is! Yesterday I was all dejected thinking that we were going to have to rework 1,280 capacitors, and today I realize that isn't true, WOO-HOO!
<BR>
<BR>I contacted the film cap engineer at Panasonic; Aki Tasaka, who provided me a *.PDF file that detailed out reliability testing they had done on the caps that had the film flaking off. The film caps that Panasonic makes has 50-layers of this film, and losing a few layers here and there doesn't create a problem whatsoever...
<BR>
<BR>As always, many thanks to you all!!
<BR>
<BR>-Steve Gregory-</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 12:13:58 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Metal core PCB's
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David,
Metal Core Printed Wiring Boards are composed of three subassemblies (SA).
Two SAPWBs and the prepared Metal Core. The designs of SAPWB-A and SAPWB-B
must be conservative due to the inability to electrically test prior to the
final lamination set. The two SAPWBs should be symmetrical and the layer
facing the MC needs to be predominately copper; if it is a plane all holes
must have pads... if a signal flood with copper. The will greatly improve
the SA to MC bond line. Buried vias within the SAPWBs need to be avoided as
the number of lamination sequences will begin to deteriorate dieletrics;
especially Polyimide. The MCPWB configuration is excellent for Via In Pad
and I recommend using it right from the beginning. SAPWB layer to layer
separation needs to be .005 nominal. External layer line widths and spacing
facing the MC side need to be .005 while MCPWB external line and spacings
need to be .007 and .007 due to heavy copper. Inner layers can be .004 and
.004, preferably .004 and .005.
The Metal Core itself needs to be prepared prior to lamination. Pre machine
so the MC edges are .060 in of MCPWB edge. I suggest EDM depending on core
type reducing induced stress, followed by re-annealing to eliminate bow and
twist; oil canning will kill the MCPWB. After drill aggressive etch to
deburr and reduce stress points. Design of the core needs to allow minimum
web and large clearance to the MCPWB PTH. MCPWB PTH that contact MC can be
quite challenging and should not be electrically Mission Critical.
Lamination of the set varies from Suppliers. Two significant camps are:
Single lamination including resin fill for MC holes and cavities and; (Second
Camp) prefill holes and cavities of MC, plannerize, then laminate. A
critical component of reliability is the oxide to MC, without it delamination
will occur. A very nice non destructive method of final lamination integrity
is submerged water ultra sound.
MCPWBs require strict adherence to design rules. The cost is very, very
expensive and thus is regulated to smaller volume, high reliability types of
usage. Assembly will be costly as well. Design in "spare" holes for future
modifications and wiring.
Reexamine the two single sided assembly boards that can be bonded to a cold
frame it is the best packaging approach. The advantage of MCPWB is the
thermal management, some CTE control (depending on MC material and SAPWB
thickness), and the direct I/O to the SAPWBs. In the cold frame approach
signals must migrate to the "over the edge" connector. This "down the drain"
signal flow is reversed and spreads across the adjoining SAPWB. An MCPWB PTH
eliminates this effect very nicely. Multiple stacked Metal Core Boards
interfacing are ideal candidates for "Z axis" only I/O, such as Elastomerics
or compression type configurations which saves much cubic area and eliminates
half of mechanical I/O and associated cabling.
I have only touched the surface of parameters... Let me know if you want me
to continue because I can go on and on. Good fortune in your endeavor.
Boston Brad
Bradford Saunders
PCB Product Engineering
www.CORETEC-Inc.com
781 858 0783
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">David,<BR>
<BR>
Metal Core Printed Wiring Boards are composed of three subassemblies (SA). Two SAPWBs and the prepared Metal Core. The designs of SAPWB-A and SAPWB-B must be conservative due to the inability to electrically test prior to the final lamination set. The two SAPWBs should be symmetrical and the layer facing the MC needs to be predominately copper; if it is a plane all holes must have pads... if a signal flood with copper. The will greatly improve the SA to MC bond line. Buried vias within the SAPWBs need to be avoided as the number of lamination sequences will begin to deteriorate dieletrics; especially Polyimide. The MCPWB configuration is excellent for Via In Pad and I recommend using it right from the beginning. SAPWB layer to layer separation needs to be .005 nominal. External layer line widths and spacing facing the MC side need to be .005 while MCPWB external line and spacings need to be .007 and .007 due to heavy copper. In!
ner layers can be .004 and .004, preferably .004 and .005.<BR>
The Metal Core itself needs to be prepared prior to lamination. Pre machine so the MC edges are .060 in of MCPWB edge. I suggest EDM depending on core type reducing induced stress, followed by re-annealing to eliminate bow and twist; oil canning will kill the MCPWB. After drill aggressive etch to deburr and reduce stress points. Design of the core needs to allow minimum web and large clearance to the MCPWB PTH. MCPWB PTH that contact MC can be quite challenging and should not be electrically Mission Critical. <BR>
Lamination of the set varies from Suppliers. Two significant camps are: Single lamination including resin fill for MC holes and cavities and; (Second Camp) prefill holes and cavities of MC, plannerize, then laminate. A critical component of reliability is the oxide to MC, without it delamination will occur. A very nice non destructive method of final lamination integrity is submerged water ultra sound. <BR>
MCPWBs require strict adherence to design rules. The cost is very, very expensive and thus is regulated to smaller volume, high reliability types of usage. Assembly will be costly as well. Design in "spare" holes for future modifications and wiring.<BR>
<BR>
Reexamine the two single sided assembly boards that can be bonded to a cold frame it is the best packaging approach. The advantage of MCPWB is the thermal management, some CTE control (depending on MC material and SAPWB thickness), and the direct I/O to the SAPWBs. In the cold frame approach signals must migrate to the "over the edge" connector. This "down the drain" signal flow is reversed and spreads across the adjoining SAPWB. An MCPWB PTH eliminates this effect very nicely. Multiple stacked Metal Core Boards interfacing are ideal candidates for "Z axis" only I/O, such as Elastomerics or compression type configurations which saves much cubic area and eliminates half of mechanical I/O and associated cabling.<BR>
<BR>
I have only touched the surface of parameters... Let me know if you want me to continue because I can go on and on. Good fortune in your endeavor.<BR>
<BR>
Boston Brad<BR>
<BR>
Bradford Saunders<BR>
PCB Product Engineering<BR>
www.CORETEC-Inc.com<BR>
781 858 0783</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 17:50:25 +0100
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Mike Fenner <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Vapor phase
X-To: Brian Ellis <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Last time I checked - admittedly about 10 years ago - saturated VPR
typically ran about 400 - 500 ppm oxygen. Not that anaerobic.
Is this still a good number as the current machines appear to be quite
different to the older style secondary blanket systems?
Kind Regards
Mike Fenner
Applications Engineer, European Operations
Indium Corporation
T: + 44 1908 580 400
M: + 44 7810 526 317
F: + 44 1908 580 411
E: [log in to unmask]
W: www.indium.com
Leadfree: www.Pb-Free.com
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Brian Ellis
Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 12:57 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Vapor phase
Stefano
Vapour phase soldering is an excellent asymptotic and anaerobic
soldering process. It has two main disadvantages:
- the primary fluid used costs a fortune
- both the primary and, if used, secondary fluid vapours (PFCs) are
greenhouse gases and have atmospheric lifetimes counting into the
thousands of years and have global warming potentials up to 10,000 times
worse than CO2.
PFCs have been targeted under the Kyoto Protocol but how they are
handled is up to individual governments, as the measures to be taken are
a basket with freedom how to handle specific global warmers.
Brian
> Stefano Riccardi wrote:
>
> Hi all!
> We are currently looking for the assembling of a double side SMT - one
> side THT (High pin count connectors) board, with a lot of BGA.
> An assembler proposed us the use of vapor Phase reflow soldering.
> Any comment about this method?
> Can someone tell me where I can find informations (books, www,
> publications) about the vapor phase soldering?
>
> Thanks!
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Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 11:55:26 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
rgrant <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: rgrant <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Vapor phase
X-To: Stefano Riccardi <[log in to unmask]>
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Hi Stefano,
Am I missing something? Why can't that board be reflowed using a standard
convection reflow process?
-----Original Message-----
From: Stefano Riccardi [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 1:32 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Vapor phase
Hi all!
We are currently looking for the assembling of a double side SMT - one side
THT (High pin count connectors) board, with a lot of BGA.
An assembler proposed us the use of vapor Phase reflow soldering.
Any comment about this method?
Can someone tell me where I can find informations (books, www, publications)
about the vapor phase soldering?
Thanks!
------_=_NextPart_001_01C2034C.2F7352C0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
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<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=305095317-24052002>Hi
Stefano,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=305095317-24052002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=305095317-24052002>Am I
missing something? Why can't that board be reflowed using a standard
convection reflow process?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Stefano Riccardi
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, May 24, 2002 1:32
AM<BR><B>To:</B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> [TN] Vapor
phase<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hi all!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>We are currently looking for the assembling of a
double side SMT - one side THT (High pin count connectors) board, with a lot of
BGA.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>An assembler proposed us the use of vapor Phase
reflow soldering.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Any comment about this method?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Can someone tell me where I can find
informations (books, www, publications) about the vapor phase
soldering?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Thanks!</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 14:06:04 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Metal core PCB's
X-To: [log in to unmask]
great stuff Saunders
MoonMan
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Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 21:55:44 +0200
Reply-To: Roland Jaquet <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Roland Jaquet <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: really big boards
X-To: "Mair, Christian" <[log in to unmask]>
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I heard Optiprint does now up to a length of 6 meters =20
Very Best Regards
Roland
Http://www.PCBspecialist.com
Roland Jaquet - PCBspecialist - 14 ch. de Vers - CH-1228 Plan-Les-Ouates =
- Geneva - Switzerland - Tel. +41-22-880-0405 - GSM (cellphone) =
+41-79-203-3723 - Fax +41-22-880-0409 - Company Viability - Technical =
Viability - Technology Choice - Yield Improvement - Company Strategy - =
Equipment Choice - Company Acquisition
EIPC Member
----- Message d'origine -----=20
De : Mair, Christian=20
=C0 : [log in to unmask]
Envoy=E9 : mercredi, 22. mai 2002 11:37
Objet : Re: [TN] really big boards
Maybe "optiprint" in Switzerland could help here. They produce boards =
with a
length up to 3,0 m (~ 9.8 feet).
Take a look: http://www.optiprint.ch/html/standard_and_large_pcb.html
Christian Mair
> ----------
> From: Guy Ramsey[SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Reply To: TechNet E-Mail Forum.;Guy Ramsey
> Sent: Freitag, 17. Mai 2002 21:13
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] really big boards
>
> That might be acceptable in size. No need to drill, but the etch is
> important, enough precision to do 1 mm trace and 1 mm space might be =
good
> enough.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Brummer =
Chuck
> Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 12:40 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] really big boards
>
>
> Some Mass Laminatin set ups could handle this size in =
lamination.
> But that is bigger than the largest exposure unit I've ever seen. =
The
> largest Scanex exposure unit I remember was 36" x 72". You still =
need a
> drill that big, never heard of one of those?
>
> Chuck Brummer
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hinners Hans M Civ WRALC/LUGE
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 8:08 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] really big boards
>
>
> Hey Guy,
>
> I can't say I've every seen or heard of an exposure =
unit
> that large or a lam press if it's multilayer that it could fit in. =
(You'd
> need a crane for the caul plates.)
>
> It must be Friday.
>
> Hans
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Guy Ramsey [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 7:14 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] really big boards
>
>
> Anybody know where we can get quotes on 4 by 8
> boards. Yes, four foot by eight foot boards. We do not need through =
hole
> plating but we do need images on both sides, oh yeah and thin 1mm or =
so.
>
>
> Guy Ramsey
> Senior Technician / Instructor
>
> E-Mail: [log in to unmask]
> Ph: (610) 362-1200 x107
> Fax: (610) 362-1290
>
>
>
>
=
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[log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I heard Optiprint does now up to a =
length of 6=20
meters </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Very Best Regards</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Roland</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://www.PCBspecialist.com">Http://www.PCBspecialist.com</A><BR=
>Roland=20
Jaquet - PCBspecialist - 14 ch. de Vers - CH-1228 Plan-Les-Ouates - =
Geneva -=20
Switzerland - Tel. +41-22-880-0405 - GSM (cellphone) +41-79-203-3723 - =
Fax=20
+41-22-880-0409 - Company Viability - Technical Viability - Technology =
Choice -=20
Yield Improvement - Company Strategy - Equipment Choice - Company=20
Acquisition<BR>EIPC Member</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Message d'origine ----- </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>De=20
:</B> <A [log in to unmask]
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">Mair, Christian</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>=C0 :</B> <A =
[log in to unmask]
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Envoy=E9 :</B> mercredi, 22. =
mai 2002=20
11:37</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Objet :</B> Re: [TN] really big =
boards</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Maybe "optiprint" in Switzerland could help here. They =
produce=20
boards with a<BR>length up to 3,0 m (~ 9.8 feet).<BR>Take a look: <A=20
=
href=3D"http://www.optiprint.ch/html/standard_and_large_pcb.html">http://=
www.optiprint.ch/html/standard_and_large_pcb.html</A><BR><BR>Christian=20
Mair<BR><BR>> ----------<BR>>=20
From: Guy=20
Ramsey[SMTP:[log in to unmask]]<BR>> Reply =
To: =20
TechNet E-Mail Forum.;Guy Ramsey<BR>>=20
Sent: Freitag, 17. Mai =
2002=20
21:13<BR>> To: <A=20
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A><BR>>=20
Subject: Re: [TN] really big=20
boards<BR>><BR>> That might be acceptable in size. No need to =
drill, but=20
the etch is<BR>> important, enough precision to do 1 mm trace and 1 =
mm=20
space might be good<BR>>=20
enough.<BR>><BR>> =
-----Original=20
Message-----<BR>> From: TechNet =
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Brummer=20
Chuck<BR>> Sent: Friday, May =
17, 2002=20
12:40 PM<BR>> To: <A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A><BR>> &n=
bsp; =20
Subject: Re: [TN] really big=20
boards<BR>><BR>><BR>> =
Some Mass=20
Laminatin set ups could handle this size in lamination.<BR>> But =
that is=20
bigger than the largest exposure unit I've ever seen. =
The<BR>>=20
largest Scanex exposure unit I remember was 36" x 72". You still =
need=20
a<BR>> drill that big, never heard of one of=20
those?<BR>><BR>> Chuck=20
=
Brummer<BR>><BR>> &n=
bsp; =20
-----Original=20
=
Message-----<BR>>  =
; =20
From: Hinners Hans M Civ WRALC/LUGE<BR>>=20
=
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR>> =
=20
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 8:08=20
=
AM<BR>> &nb=
sp; =20
To: <A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A><BR>> &n=
bsp; =20
Subject: Re: [TN] really big=20
=
boards<BR>><BR>><BR>> &=
nbsp; =20
Hey=20
=
Guy,<BR>><BR>>  =
; =20
I can't say I've every seen or heard of an exposure unit<BR>> that =
large or=20
a lam press if it's multilayer that it could fit in. =
(You'd<BR>> need=20
a crane for the caul=20
=
plates.)<BR>><BR>> &=
nbsp; =20
It must be=20
=
Friday.<BR>><BR>> &n=
bsp; =20
=
Hans<BR>><BR>>  =
; =
=20
-----Original=20
=
Message-----<BR>>  =
; =
=20
From: Guy Ramsey=20
=
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR>> &n=
bsp; &nb=
sp; =20
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 7:14=20
=
AM<BR>> &nb=
sp; =20
To: <A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A><BR>> &n=
bsp; &nb=
sp; =20
Subject: [TN] really big=20
=
boards<BR>><BR>><BR>> &=
nbsp; &n=
bsp; =20
Anybody know where we can get quotes on 4 by 8<BR>> boards. Yes, =
four foot=20
by eight foot boards. We do not need through hole<BR>> plating but =
we do=20
need images on both sides, oh yeah and thin 1mm or=20
=
so.<BR>><BR>><BR>> &nbs=
p;  =
; =20
Guy=20
=
Ramsey<BR>>  =
; =
=20
Senior Technician /=20
=
Instructor<BR>><BR>>  =
; =
=20
E-Mail: <A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A><BR>> &n=
bsp; &nb=
sp; =20
Ph: (610) 362-1200=20
=
x107<BR>> &=
nbsp; =20
Fax: (610)=20
=
362-1290<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR><BR>-------------------------=
--------------------------------------------------------<BR>Technet=20
Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d<BR>To=20
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=
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=
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Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 09:06:27 +0300
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Brian Ellis <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Brian Ellis <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Vapor phase
X-To: Stefano Riccardi <[log in to unmask]>
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Mike
It's true that PFCs do dissolve oxygen but the quantity in the vapour
phase is sufficiently low that no significant oxidation will occur,
unlike non-controlled atmospheric convection or IR soldering.
Milder/less flux can be used.
The advantage over convection is that 3-D assmeblies are much easier to
solder and, being asymptotic, the process is less liable to damage
components which are very thermally sensitive because it is impossible
to exceed the vapour temperature which is fixed by the chemical
composition.
Brian
> Stefano Riccardi wrote:
>
> Hi all!
> We are currently looking for the assembling of a double side SMT - one
> side THT (High pin count connectors) board, with a lot of BGA.
> An assembler proposed us the use of vapor Phase reflow soldering.
> Any comment about this method?
> Can someone tell me where I can find informations (books, www,
> publications) about the vapor phase soldering?
>
> Thanks!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 10:36:11 +0530
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
MA Ranganath/SMPLB/SEC/SANMAR <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: MA Ranganath/SMPLB/SEC/SANMAR <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Metal core PCB's
X-To: [log in to unmask]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Dear Saunders,
A good elaborate info on the product and process with its concerns. I
understand there is a hole-fill material
called " FIBRITE" used for insulating the metal. Being in India, I am
unable to get the Product details including
the address and contact person who can supply the product. Looking for
help!
Regards,
M A Ranganath
GM - Technical & Quality
Sanmar Micropack Limited
Plot No.16, Jigani Industrial Area,
Bangalore - 562 106. INDIA
Phone: 91 - 80 - 7825223/224/226/389
Fax : 91 - 80 - 7825225
Email : [log in to unmask]
B2Saunders@AO
L.COM< > To: [log in to unmask]
Sent by: cc:
TechNet Subject: Re: [TN] Metal core PCB's
<[log in to unmask]
ORG>
05/24/02
09:43 PM
Please
respond to
"TechNet
E-Mail
Forum.";
Please
respond to
B2Saunders
David,
Metal Core Printed Wiring Boards are composed of three subassemblies (SA).
Two SAPWBs and the prepared Metal Core. The designs of SAPWB-A and SAPWB-B
must be conservative due to the inability to electrically test prior to the
final lamination set. The two SAPWBs should be symmetrical and the layer
facing the MC needs to be predominately copper; if it is a plane all holes
must have pads... if a signal flood with copper. The will greatly improve
the SA to MC bond line. Buried vias within the SAPWBs need to be avoided
as the number of lamination sequences will begin to deteriorate dieletrics;
especially Polyimide. The MCPWB configuration is excellent for Via In Pad
and I recommend using it right from the beginning. SAPWB layer to layer
separation needs to be .005 nominal. External layer line widths and
spacing facing the MC side need to be .005 while MCPWB external line and
spacings need to be .007 and .007 due to heavy copper. In! ner layers can
be .004 and .004, preferably .004 and .005.
The Metal Core itself needs to be prepared prior to lamination. Pre
machine so the MC edges are .060 in of MCPWB edge. I suggest EDM depending
on core type reducing induced stress, followed by re-annealing to eliminate
bow and twist; oil canning will kill the MCPWB. After drill aggressive
etch to deburr and reduce stress points. Design of the core needs to allow
minimum web and large clearance to the MCPWB PTH. MCPWB PTH that contact
MC can be quite challenging and should not be electrically Mission
Critical.
Lamination of the set varies from Suppliers. Two significant camps are:
Single lamination including resin fill for MC holes and cavities and;
(Second Camp) prefill holes and cavities of MC, plannerize, then laminate.
A critical component of reliability is the oxide to MC, without it
delamination will occur. A very nice non destructive method of final
lamination integrity is submerged water ultra sound.
MCPWBs require strict adherence to design rules. The cost is very, very
expensive and thus is regulated to smaller volume, high reliability types
of usage. Assembly will be costly as well. Design in "spare" holes for
future modifications and wiring.
Reexamine the two single sided assembly boards that can be bonded to a cold
frame it is the best packaging approach. The advantage of MCPWB is the
thermal management, some CTE control (depending on MC material and SAPWB
thickness), and the direct I/O to the SAPWBs. In the cold frame approach
signals must migrate to the "over the edge" connector. This "down the
drain" signal flow is reversed and spreads across the adjoining SAPWB. An
MCPWB PTH eliminates this effect very nicely. Multiple stacked Metal Core
Boards interfacing are ideal candidates for "Z axis" only I/O, such as
Elastomerics or compression type configurations which saves much cubic area
and eliminates half of mechanical I/O and associated cabling.
I have only touched the surface of parameters... Let me know if you want me
to continue because I can go on and on. Good fortune in your endeavor.
Boston Brad
Bradford Saunders
PCB Product Engineering
www.CORETEC-Inc.com
781 858 0783
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Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 04:47:48 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Tom Waznis <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Tom Waznis <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Metal core PCB's
X-To: David Bailey <[log in to unmask]>
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I suggest copper if you can use it instead of Aluminium as
manufacturing may be easier.
David Bailey wrote:
> Hello all
>
>
>
> I am interested in the feasibility and cost effectively of a metal cored
> PCB substraight. I have a potential application for the integration of
> the circuit and the products main mechanical backbone into one.
>
>
>
> FR4 laminated either side of an aluminium or a steel sheet?
>
> Double sided Flex laminated to either side?
>
>
>
> Your thoughts, actual experiences, potential suppliers, pitfalls and
> cost are all of interest to me.
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> David Bailey
> Team Leader - Manufacturing Development, Vision Systems Fire and
> Security Limited
> 495 Blackburn Rd, Mt Waverley, Victoria, 3149 Australia
> Ph (613) 9211 7338 Mb 0416 026 252 E-mail [log in to unmask]
>
> IMPORTANT - This e-mail and any attachments may be confidential and
> privileged. If received in error, please contact me and delete all
> copies. Before opening or using attachments, check them for viruses and
> defects. I take no responsibility for viral infections.
>
>
>
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Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 22:55:52 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Werner Engelmaier <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Fire Up for IPC Annual Meeting 2002
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Hi John,
Am I scheduled to give a tutorial?
Best regards,
Werner Engelmaier
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Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 22:55:51 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Werner Engelmaier <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Conformal coating BGAs
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Hi Tom,
There is no such thing as high-cycle fatigue for solder, unless you cycle
exclusively below about -40C. HCF is dependent on elastic behavior and solder
does not have any in the T-range of interest due to creep.
Werner Engelmaier
Engelmaier Associates, L.C.
Electronic Packaging, Interconnection and Reliability Consulting
7 Jasmine Run
Ormond Beach, FL 32174 USA
Phone: 386-437-8747, Fax: 386-437-8737
E-mail: [log in to unmask], Website: www.engelmaier.com
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Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 08:31:58 +0200
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Stefano Riccardi <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Stefano Riccardi <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Vapor phase
X-To: rgrant <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0064_01C20558.F78848C0"
Messaggio in formato MIME composto da più parti.
------=_NextPart_000_0064_01C20558.F78848C0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi all
The board CAN be reflowed, but the assembler told me that the vapor =
phase has a lot of advantages...
So i'm asking a third-part opinion..... I'd like to know the advantages =
and the disadvantages of the vapor phase compared to standard reflow.
Regards=20
Stefano
----- Original Message -----=20
From: rgrant=20
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 7:55 PM
Subject: Re: [TN] Vapor phase
Hi Stefano,
=20
Am I missing something? Why can't that board be reflowed using a =
standard convection reflow process?
-----Original Message-----
From: Stefano Riccardi [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 1:32 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Vapor phase
Hi all!
We are currently looking for the assembling of a double side SMT - one =
side THT (High pin count connectors) board, with a lot of BGA.
An assembler proposed us the use of vapor Phase reflow soldering.
Any comment about this method?
Can someone tell me where I can find informations (books, www, =
publications) about the vapor phase soldering?
Thanks!
------=_NextPart_000_0064_01C20558.F78848C0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.3315.2870" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi all</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The board CAN be reflowed, but the =
assembler told=20
me that the vapor phase has a lot of advantages...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>So i'm asking a third-part =
opinion.</FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>.... I'd like to know the advantages and the=20
disadvantages of the vapor phase compared to standard =
reflow.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Regards </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Stefano</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" =
[log in to unmask]>rgrant</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"=20
[log in to unmask]>[log in to unmask]</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, May 24, 2002 7:55 =
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [TN] Vapor =
phase</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D305095317-24052002>Hi=20
Stefano,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D305095317-24052002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D305095317-24052002>Am I=20
missing something? Why can't that board be reflowed using a =
standard=20
convection reflow process?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Stefano Riccardi =
[<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:stefano.riccardi@DIADIX=
.IT</A>]<BR><B>Sent:</B>=20
Friday, May 24, 2002 1:32 AM<BR><B>To:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A><BR><B>Subject:</B> =
[TN]=20
Vapor phase<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi all!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>We are currently looking for the =
assembling of a=20
double side SMT - one side THT (High pin count connectors) board, with =
a lot=20
of BGA.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>An assembler proposed us the use of =
vapor Phase=20
reflow soldering.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Any comment about this =
method?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Can someone tell me where I =
can find=20
informations (books, www, publications) about the vapor phase=20
soldering?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Thanks!</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_0064_01C20558.F78848C0--
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Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 08:57:25 +0200
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
=?iso-8859-1?Q?Bj=F6rn_Kullman?= <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bj=F6rn_Kullman?= <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: SV: [TN] Vapor phase
X-To: Brian Ellis <[log in to unmask]>
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True about not being able to overheat components, but, consider the fast
ramp-up that the majority (all?) of vapour phase ovens produce. Components
sensitive to temperature changes above 4 deg/sec are liable to damage.
Björn Kullman
Sincotron Technology Center, Norrköping, Sweden
Sincotron Sverige AB www.sincotron.se
phone +46 (0)11-368288 mobile +46 (0)70-4245607
-----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
Från: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]För Brian Ellis
Skickat: den 25 maj 2002 08:06
Till: [log in to unmask]
Ämne: Re: [TN] Vapor phase
Mike
It's true that PFCs do dissolve oxygen but the quantity in the vapour
phase is sufficiently low that no significant oxidation will occur,
unlike non-controlled atmospheric convection or IR soldering.
Milder/less flux can be used.
The advantage over convection is that 3-D assmeblies are much easier to
solder and, being asymptotic, the process is less liable to damage
components which are very thermally sensitive because it is impossible
to exceed the vapour temperature which is fixed by the chemical
composition.
Brian
> Stefano Riccardi wrote:
>
> Hi all!
> We are currently looking for the assembling of a double side SMT - one
> side THT (High pin count connectors) board, with a lot of BGA.
> An assembler proposed us the use of vapor Phase reflow soldering.
> Any comment about this method?
> Can someone tell me where I can find informations (books, www,
> publications) about the vapor phase soldering?
>
> Thanks!
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Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 12:10:38 +0300
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Brian Ellis <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Brian Ellis <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SV: [TN] Vapor phase
X-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bj=F6rn?= Kullman <[log in to unmask]>
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Björn
There are VP reflow systems with controlled preheating, either using
secondary fluids or IR. It is not necessary to put cold components in
vapour at 215°C or more.
Brian
Björn Kullman wrote:
>
> True about not being able to overheat components, but, consider the fast
> ramp-up that the majority (all?) of vapour phase ovens produce. Components
> sensitive to temperature changes above 4 deg/sec are liable to damage.
>
> Björn Kullman
>
> Sincotron Technology Center, Norrköping, Sweden
> Sincotron Sverige AB www.sincotron.se
> phone +46 (0)11-368288 mobile +46 (0)70-4245607
>
> -----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
> Från: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]För Brian Ellis
> Skickat: den 25 maj 2002 08:06
> Till: [log in to unmask]
> Ämne: Re: [TN] Vapor phase
>
> Mike
>
> It's true that PFCs do dissolve oxygen but the quantity in the vapour
> phase is sufficiently low that no significant oxidation will occur,
> unlike non-controlled atmospheric convection or IR soldering.
> Milder/less flux can be used.
>
> The advantage over convection is that 3-D assmeblies are much easier to
> solder and, being asymptotic, the process is less liable to damage
> components which are very thermally sensitive because it is impossible
> to exceed the vapour temperature which is fixed by the chemical
> composition.
>
> Brian
>
> > Stefano Riccardi wrote:
> >
> > Hi all!
> > We are currently looking for the assembling of a double side SMT - one
> > side THT (High pin count connectors) board, with a lot of BGA.
> > An assembler proposed us the use of vapor Phase reflow soldering.
> > Any comment about this method?
> > Can someone tell me where I can find informations (books, www,
> > publications) about the vapor phase soldering?
> >
> > Thanks!
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----
> Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d
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>
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Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 12:12:07 +0300
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Brian Ellis <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Brian Ellis <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Vapor phase
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Stefano
Probably the main advantage is that the assembler has a VP machine and
not a convection one! :-)
Brian
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Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 10:36:46 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <Te[log in to unmask]>,
Graham Naisbitt <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Graham Naisbitt <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SV: [TN] Vapor phase
X-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?'Bj=F6rn_Kullman'?= <[log in to unmask]>
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Techies
Taking on-board all that has been said, consider:
There is at least one system on the market where the entire process is
conducted in a sealed chamber.
In this way, the expensive heat transfer fluid may be recycled with
minimal losses - < 10 kgs per year assuming 2000 hours per year. BTW,
that's only 5 litres or just less than 1.5 USgallon per year! (Proven in
application.)
The process involves loading the chamber with assemblies, and sealing
it. The fluid is then injected at a controlled rate onto a heated plate
in the bottom of the chamber. As this plate would be set at around 25 to
30 DegC above the boiling point of the liquid, the liquid will vaporise.
It will then condense onto anything colder than itself, even under the
most discreet devices.
Because of the controlled rate of injection, the temperature ramp can be
easily maintained at 2 to 2.5 DegC per second.
Because the liquid can only boil at its boiling point - there is a
temperature delta of less than 5 DegC over the boiling point.=20
The process is being done in an inert atmosphere.
What are the boiling point liquids that are available? 200 - 210 - 220 -
230 - 240 DegC=20
Thus, SAC alloy (Tin Silver Copper) with a melting point of 219 DegC
will be reached with 220 liquid and NO overtemperature issues
whatsoever.
Upon completion of this part of the process, a separate vacuum pump
removes the vapour to ensure, as far as possible, that there is minimal
residue for "evaporative" or "drag-out" losses. The fluid is filtered
and recycled into the reservoir for almost perpetual re-use.
The process may be considered "dis-continuous" or "batch" but, with the
right size of chamber, a whole days production could be achieved in only
3 minutes. BTW, this is only to show that throughput is not an issue.
This is a process that is receiving considerable interest on this side
of the pond. If you want more, contact me off-line because from this
point on, it is commercial!
Regards Graham Naisbitt
=20
[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>=20
=20
Concoat ANNOUNCE their acquisition of the former Multicore SPCID
business.
=20
MUST II Solderability Testing Systems -=20
CM Cleanliness Testing Systems -=20
Auto-SIR Reliability Testing Systems -=20
SoldaPro & NEW SoldaPro Wizard Thermal Profilers
=20
For more information please visit our new web site:
www.concoatsystems.com <http://www.concoatsystems.com>=20
=20
Concoat Limited
Alasan House, Albany Park
Camberley GU16 7PH - UK
=20
www.concoat.co.uk <http://www.concoat.co.uk>=20
=20
Phone: +44 1276 691100
Fax: +44 1276 691227
Mobile: +44 79 6858 2121
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Bj=F6rn Kullman
> Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 07:57
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] SV: [TN] Vapor phase
>=20
>=20
> True about not being able to overheat components, but,=20
> consider the fast ramp-up that the majority (all?) of vapour=20
> phase ovens produce. Components sensitive to temperature=20
> changes above 4 deg/sec are liable to damage.
>=20
> Bj=F6rn Kullman
>=20
> Sincotron Technology Center, Norrk=F6ping, Sweden
> Sincotron Sverige AB www.sincotron.se
> phone +46 (0)11-368288 mobile +46 (0)70-4245607
>=20
> -----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
> Fr=E5n: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]F=F6r Brian Ellis
> Skickat: den 25 maj 2002 08:06
> Till: [log in to unmask]
> =C4mne: Re: [TN] Vapor phase
>=20
>=20
> Mike
>=20
> It's true that PFCs do dissolve oxygen but the quantity in=20
> the vapour phase is sufficiently low that no significant=20
> oxidation will occur, unlike non-controlled atmospheric=20
> convection or IR soldering. Milder/less flux can be used.
>=20
> The advantage over convection is that 3-D assmeblies are much=20
> easier to solder and, being asymptotic, the process is less=20
> liable to damage components which are very thermally=20
> sensitive because it is impossible to exceed the vapour=20
> temperature which is fixed by the chemical composition.
>=20
> Brian
>=20
> > Stefano Riccardi wrote:
> >
> > Hi all!
> > We are currently looking for the assembling of a double=20
> side SMT - one=20
> > side THT (High pin count connectors) board, with a lot of BGA. An=20
> > assembler proposed us the use of vapor Phase reflow soldering. Any=20
> > comment about this method? Can someone tell me where I can find=20
> > informations (books, www,
> > publications) about the vapor phase soldering?
> >
> > Thanks!
>=20
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> --------------
> -----
> Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using=20
> LISTSERV 1.8d To unsubscribe, send a message to=20
> [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the=20
> subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt delivery=20
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> NOMAIL To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to
> [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest
> Search the archives of previous posts at:=20
> http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site=20
http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm for additional information, or contact
Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-509-9700 ext.5315
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=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 14:20:14 +0100
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Mike Fenner <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SV: [TN] Vapor phase
X-To: Brian Ellis <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Brian:, its not the dissolved oxygen so much as the fact the vapour doesn't
displace all the air.
Björn: At the risk of being pedantic, an advantage of saturated vapour
phase, and a principal factor in its original introduction for back plane
soldering, and subsequent adoption in surface mount, is its ability to heat
very uniformly almost irrespective of work size or geometry. This uniformity
allows ramp rates which are much higher than is possible with other
mechanisms for heat transfer.
Anyone: However VPR heat transfer fluids are more expensive than, and
clearly have an environmental impact which is greater than, the most common
alternative medium used in conventional reflow ovens. Air is free :)
The process advantages of VPR - which I fully appreciate - have to be set
against its costs and disadvantages on a case by case basis. IMHO I think
that this sort of analysis will show that for odd geometries heavy parts
mixed prototyping etc, and for adhesive [epoxy] curing, saturated VPR has
some attractions. Certainly it's a process which is hard to get wrong on one
offs, but its harder to get really optimum on longer runs.
Kind Regards
Mike Fenner
Applications Engineer, European Operations
Indium Corporation
T: + 44 1908 580 400
M: + 44 7810 526 317
F: + 44 1908 580 411
E: [log in to unmask]
W: www.indium.com
Leadfree: www.Pb-Free.com
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Brian Ellis
Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 10:11 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] SV: [TN] Vapor phase
Björn
There are VP reflow systems with controlled preheating, either using
secondary fluids or IR. It is not necessary to put cold components in
vapour at 215°C or more.
Brian
Björn Kullman wrote:
>
> True about not being able to overheat components, but, consider the fast
> ramp-up that the majority (all?) of vapour phase ovens produce. Components
> sensitive to temperature changes above 4 deg/sec are liable to damage.
>
> Björn Kullman
>
> Sincotron Technology Center, Norrköping, Sweden
> Sincotron Sverige AB www.sincotron.se
> phone +46 (0)11-368288 mobile +46 (0)70-4245607
>
> -----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
> Från: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]För Brian Ellis
> Skickat: den 25 maj 2002 08:06
> Till: [log in to unmask]
> Ämne: Re: [TN] Vapor phase
>
> Mike
>
> It's true that PFCs do dissolve oxygen but the quantity in the vapour
> phase is sufficiently low that no significant oxidation will occur,
> unlike non-controlled atmospheric convection or IR soldering.
> Milder/less flux can be used.
>
> The advantage over convection is that 3-D assmeblies are much easier to
> solder and, being asymptotic, the process is less liable to damage
> components which are very thermally sensitive because it is impossible
> to exceed the vapour temperature which is fixed by the chemical
> composition.
>
> Brian
>
> > Stefano Riccardi wrote:
> >
> > Hi all!
> > We are currently looking for the assembling of a double side SMT - one
> > side THT (High pin count connectors) board, with a lot of BGA.
> > An assembler proposed us the use of vapor Phase reflow soldering.
> > Any comment about this method?
> > Can someone tell me where I can find informations (books, www,
> > publications) about the vapor phase soldering?
> >
> > Thanks!
>-
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 17:05:14 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Graham Naisbitt <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Graham Naisbitt <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SV: [TN] Vapor phase
X-To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To: <004f01c20581$3ec2f780$f502a8c0@ukomfenner>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mike
Your info is not quite correct.
Consider: Running cost for latest VP system as my message described is
<US$2 per hour including capital amortisation. Air may be free, but
electricity isn't and nor is Nitrogen.
Regards Graham Naisbitt
=20
[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>=20
=20
Concoat ANNOUNCE their acquisition of the former Multicore SPCID
business.
=20
MUST II Solderability Testing Systems -=20
CM Cleanliness Testing Systems -=20
Auto-SIR Reliability Testing Systems -=20
SoldaPro & NEW SoldaPro Wizard Thermal Profilers
=20
For more information please visit our new web site:
www.concoatsystems.com <http://www.concoatsystems.com>=20
=20
Concoat Limited
Alasan House, Albany Park
Camberley GU16 7PH - UK
=20
www.concoat.co.uk <http://www.concoat.co.uk>=20
=20
Phone: +44 1276 691100
Fax: +44 1276 691227
Mobile: +44 79 6858 2121
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Mike Fenner
> Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 14:20
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] SV: [TN] Vapor phase
>=20
>=20
> Brian:, its not the dissolved oxygen so much as the fact the=20
> vapour doesn't displace all the air.
>=20
> Bj=F6rn: At the risk of being pedantic, an advantage of=20
> saturated vapour phase, and a principal factor in its=20
> original introduction for back plane soldering, and=20
> subsequent adoption in surface mount, is its ability to heat=20
> very uniformly almost irrespective of work size or geometry.=20
> This uniformity allows ramp rates which are much higher than=20
> is possible with other mechanisms for heat transfer.
>=20
> Anyone: However VPR heat transfer fluids are more expensive=20
> than, and clearly have an environmental impact which is=20
> greater than, the most common alternative medium used in=20
> conventional reflow ovens. Air is free :)
>=20
> The process advantages of VPR - which I fully appreciate -=20
> have to be set against its costs and disadvantages on a case=20
> by case basis. IMHO I think that this sort of analysis will=20
> show that for odd geometries heavy parts mixed prototyping=20
> etc, and for adhesive [epoxy] curing, saturated VPR has some=20
> attractions. Certainly it's a process which is hard to get=20
> wrong on one offs, but its harder to get really optimum on=20
> longer runs.
>=20
>=20
> Kind Regards
>=20
> Mike Fenner
>=20
> Applications Engineer, European Operations
> Indium Corporation
> T: + 44 1908 580 400
> M: + 44 7810 526 317
> F: + 44 1908 580 411
> E: [log in to unmask]
> W: www.indium.com
> Leadfree: www.Pb-Free.com
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Brian Ellis
> Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 10:11 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] SV: [TN] Vapor phase
>=20
>=20
> Bj=F6rn
>=20
> There are VP reflow systems with controlled preheating,=20
> either using secondary fluids or IR. It is not necessary to=20
> put cold components in vapour at 215=B0C or more.
>=20
> Brian
>=20
> Bj=F6rn Kullman wrote:
> >
> > True about not being able to overheat components, but, consider the=20
> > fast ramp-up that the majority (all?) of vapour phase ovens=20
> produce.=20
> > Components sensitive to temperature changes above 4 deg/sec=20
> are liable=20
> > to damage.
> >
> > Bj=F6rn Kullman
> >
> > Sincotron Technology Center, Norrk=F6ping, Sweden
> > Sincotron Sverige AB www.sincotron.se
> > phone +46 (0)11-368288 mobile +46 (0)70-4245607
> >
> > -----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
> > Fr=E5n: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]F=F6r Brian Ellis
> > Skickat: den 25 maj 2002 08:06
> > Till: [log in to unmask]
> > =C4mne: Re: [TN] Vapor phase
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > It's true that PFCs do dissolve oxygen but the quantity in=20
> the vapour=20
> > phase is sufficiently low that no significant oxidation will occur,=20
> > unlike non-controlled atmospheric convection or IR soldering.=20
> > Milder/less flux can be used.
> >
> > The advantage over convection is that 3-D assmeblies are=20
> much easier=20
> > to solder and, being asymptotic, the process is less liable=20
> to damage=20
> > components which are very thermally sensitive because it is=20
> impossible=20
> > to exceed the vapour temperature which is fixed by the chemical=20
> > composition.
> >
> > Brian
> >
> > > Stefano Riccardi wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi all!
> > > We are currently looking for the assembling of a double=20
> side SMT -=20
> > > one side THT (High pin count connectors) board, with a=20
> lot of BGA.=20
> > > An assembler proposed us the use of vapor Phase reflow soldering.=20
> > > Any comment about this method? Can someone tell me where=20
> I can find=20
> > > informations (books, www,
> > > publications) about the vapor phase soldering?
> > >
> > > Thanks!
> >-
>=20
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> -------------------
> Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using=20
> LISTSERV 1.8d To unsubscribe, send a message to=20
> [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the=20
> subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt delivery=20
> of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet=20
> NOMAIL To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send=20
> e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the=20
> archives of previous posts at:=20
> http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site=20
http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm for additional information, or contact
Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-509-9700 ext.5315
------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d
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---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 01:00:45 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
[log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Danny Harkins/CSI is out of the office.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
I will be out of the office starting 05/27/2002 and will not
return until 05/31/2002.
I will respond to your message when I return. Please see Tom Bryan
or Cindy Allen if needed.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 09:05:38 +0100
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Mike Fenner <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ASSY: Reflow for Through-Hole Devices
X-To: "Atkinson, Neil" <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <717AC798D8CBD211B6B70004AC4C56857FF203@SERVER01>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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There are simple low cost ways of mass loading individual preforms or some
companies can supply products where the individual washers are integrated
into one part , separating again on reflow. These are just dropped over the
pins.
These may be appropriate to allow you to use your existing connectors, or
consider PIHR (pin in hole reflow also known as intrusive reflow)
Kind Regards
Mike Fenner
Applications Engineer, European Operations
Indium Corporation
T: + 44 1908 580 400
M: + 44 7810 526 317
F: + 44 1908 580 411
E: [log in to unmask]
W: www.indium.com
Leadfree: www.Pb-Free.com
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Atkinson, Neil
Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 8:15 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] ASSY: Reflow for Through-Hole Devices
Have you considered press-fit connectors or intrusive reflow?
Neil
-----Original Message-----
From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 22 May 2002 23:33
Subject: Re: ASSY: Reflow for Through-Hole Devices
Hi Jack!
Many of the solder companies make preforms, kinda' tedious to deal with
though. Depending on what kind of PTH component it is, there is a company
called TEKA (http://www.tekais.com) that make headers, sockets, connectors,
that have what they call SBL (Solder Bearing Lead) Technology.
I've got some boards here that have double-sided SMT and is NOT wave-able
due to the design, and has PTH headers that go through both sides of the
board and would have to be hand soldered...but not anymore They're fixing me
up with some headers and sockets that will be dropped in and reflowed along
with the SMT.
I've used these before at another company when we built PC104
products...they work great!
-Steve Gregory-
One of my colleagues here is thinking their must be some kind of solder
ring, or collar, or donut shaped thing that you can drop over the leads of
a (bottom mounted) through-hole device, and then when you reflow the board
the donuts melt and form a fillet for the PTH device at the same time.
Does anyone do this?
If this is feasible, where can I find out more (and get a source for the
solder rings)?
Jack
________________________________________________________________________
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<DIV><SPAN class=3D746585507-28052002><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff>There=20
are simple low cost ways of mass loading individual =
preforms or=20
some companies can supply products where the individual washers are =
integrated=20
into one part , separating again on reflow. These are just dropped over =
the=20
pins.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D746585507-28052002><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff>These may be=20
appropriate to allow you to use your existing connectors, or consider =
PIHR (pin=20
in hole reflow also known as intrusive reflow)</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<P><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff>Kind Regards</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff>Mike Fenner</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff>Applications Engineer, European=20
Operations</FONT> <BR><B><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff>Indium=20
Corporation</FONT></B> <BR><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff> T: + =
44 1908 580=20
400</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff>M: + 44 7810 526 =
317</FONT>=20
<BR><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff> F: + 44 1908 580 411</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff> E: [log in to unmask]</FONT> =
<BR><FONT face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff>W:<U> www.indium.com</U> </FONT><BR><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff>Leadfree:</FONT><U> <FONT face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff>www.Pb-Free.com</FONT></U> </P>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> TechNet=20
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Atkinson, =
Neil<BR><B>Sent:</B>=20
Friday, May 24, 2002 8:15 AM<BR><B>To:</B> =
[log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B>=20
Re: [TN] ASSY: Reflow for Through-Hole Devices<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=3DSection1>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3DEmailStyle15><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3Dnavy=20
size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: =
12.0pt">Have=20
you considered press-fit connectors or intrusive=20
reflow?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3DEmailStyle15><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3Dnavy=20
size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: =
12.0pt"><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]><![endif]> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3DEmailStyle15><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3Dnavy=20
size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: =
12.0pt">Neil<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3DEmailStyle15><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3Dnavy=20
size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: =
12.0pt"><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]><![endif]> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=3DTahoma =
color=3Dblack=20
size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
Tahoma">-----Original=20
Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B>=20
[log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> 22 May 2002 =
23:33<BR><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: ASSY: Reflow for=20
Through-Hole Devices</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=3D"Times =
New Roman"=20
size=3D3><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]><![endif]> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3Dblack=20
size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">Hi=20
Jack!<BR><BR>Many of the solder companies make preforms, kinda' =
tedious to=20
deal with though. Depending on what kind of PTH component it is, there =
is a=20
company called TEKA (http://www.tekais.com) that make headers, =
sockets,=20
connectors, that have what they call SBL (Solder Bearing Lead)=20
Technology.<BR><BR>I've got some boards here that have double-sided =
SMT and is=20
NOT wave-able due to the design, and has PTH headers that go through =
both=20
sides of the board and would have to be hand soldered...but not =
anymore=20
They're fixing me up with some headers and sockets that will be =
dropped in and=20
reflowed along with the SMT.<BR><BR>I've used these before at another =
company=20
when we built PC104 products...they work great!<BR><BR>-Steve=20
Gregory-<BR><BR><BR style=3D"mso-special-character: line-break"><![if =
!supportLineBreakNewLine]><BR=20
style=3D"mso-special-character: =
line-break"><![endif]></SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial color=3Dblack size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; =
mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: =
medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 8pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: blue =
3pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=3DMsoNormal=20
style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: =
medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: =
43.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: =
medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; =
mso-border-left-alt: solid blue 3.0pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in =
8.0pt"><FONT=20
face=3DArial color=3Dblack size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">One of my =
colleagues=20
here is thinking their must be some kind of solder<BR>ring, or collar, =
or=20
donut shaped thing that you can drop over the leads of<BR>a (bottom =
mounted)=20
through-hole device, and then when you reflow the board<BR>the donuts =
melt and=20
form a fillet for the PTH device at the same time.<BR><BR>Does anyone =
do=20
this?<BR>If this is feasible, where can I find out more (and get a =
source for=20
the<BR>solder rings)?<BR><BR>Jack</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3Dblack=20
size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; =
mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal=20
style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; =
mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3Dblack size=3D3><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black"><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]><![endif]> </SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
color=3Dblack><SPAN=20
style=3D"COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: =
windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV><BR>______________________=
__________________________________________________<BR>This=20
e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. =
The<BR>service is=20
powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a =
proactive<BR>anti-virus=20
service working around the clock, around the globe, visit:<BR><A=20
=
href=3D"http://www.star.net.uk">http://www.star.net.uk</A><BR>___________=
_____________________________________________________________<BR></BLOCKQ=
UOTE></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 12:37:24 +0200
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"d. terstegge" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "d. terstegge" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Anti-voiding solder paste
MIME-Version: 1.0 (Generated by NET-TEL Mailguard SMTP version 4.0.0.22)
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Dear Technetters,
I'm having some problems with really big voids (up to 50% of the diameter) =
in the solderjoints of BGA's. The problems occur on our only board that =
has via's in the BGA-pads. The via's are filled and plated, so from the =
outside you don't see they're there.
I'm quite sure that it's the board that's causing the problems, but the =
boardvendor does not agree and thinks our solderpaste is causing it.
To prove that I'm right (or to solve the problem if the boardvendor is =
right !) I'd like to do some tests with a solderpaste that's known to =
cause a minimal amount of voiding. From earlier discussions I learned that =
such solderpastes exist.=20
Does anyone have a recommendation for such a solderpaste ?
Daan Terstegge
SMT Centre
Thales Communications
Unclassified mail
Personal Website: http://www.smtinfo.net
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Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 08:20:42 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: no clean paste for High frequencies
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Siggi
Work published in 1995 by the Low Residue Soldering Task Force delt with high
frequency application and low residue cleaned and not cleaned fluxes.
Contact Ron Inman or Jeff Koon (Rayteon). I have also being doing alot of
project work on low residue effects on high frequency circuits. One
important aspect is to be consistant with process residues and ensure all the
flux carrier is driven off and the activator is properly complexed so as to
no absorb ambient moisture. Minimize rework and heat the area where extra
flux may be used. I hope this information helps your investigation.
Terry Munson
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Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 13:33:55 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Eric Dawson <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Eric Dawson <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Anti-voiding solder paste
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Daan,
If you have a spare board, try applying a spot of high temperature oil to a
bga pad with a via and heat it to soldering temperature. Any outgassing of
the via should be visually obvious.
( I am speaking here from theory, not practise, but it should work).
Regards
Eric Dawson
> -----Original Message-----
> From: d. terstegge [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 11:37 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] Anti-voiding solder paste
>
> Dear Technetters,
>
> I'm having some problems with really big voids (up to 50% of the diameter)
> in the solderjoints of BGA's. The problems occur on our only board that
> has via's in the BGA-pads. The via's are filled and plated, so from the
> outside you don't see they're there.
> I'm quite sure that it's the board that's causing the problems, but the
> boardvendor does not agree and thinks our solderpaste is causing it.
> To prove that I'm right (or to solve the problem if the boardvendor is
> right !) I'd like to do some tests with a solderpaste that's known to
> cause a minimal amount of voiding. From earlier discussions I learned that
> such solderpastes exist.
> Does anyone have a recommendation for such a solderpaste ?
>
> Daan Terstegge
> SMT Centre
> Thales Communications
> Unclassified mail
> Personal Website: http://www.smtinfo.net
>
>
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Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 07:35:14 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Anti-voiding solder paste
X-To: [log in to unmask]
Daan,
I'm sure in your mind the paste isn't the problem. Is it the usual
contamination or oxidation?
I would like to see some x-sections, both vertically and horizontally, of
the board to see if outgassing came from the filled and plated over holes.
50% voiding, though significant in terms of the solder joint, is not that
excessive relative to hole outgassing but I'd still like to see some
sections as this could be analog to hole wall outgassing in through holes.
Enjoy the adventure but hope it's not to much of a bad ride,
Earl
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Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 08:56:26 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Anti-voiding solder paste
MIME-Version: 1.0
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boundary="part1_1ad.2e63681.2a24d87a_boundary"
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Hi Daan,
Kester makes some claims about reducing voiding. Their R560 water soluble
paste has a statement that it reduces voiding from 25% to less than 10%.
Their R562 water soluble formula has a statement that voids will be reduced
to less than 3%. I'll send you the *.PDF datasheets for both.
I've never done any tests to verify that, so maybe you'll find out if it's
true!
-Steve Gregory-
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>Hi Daan,
<BR>
<BR>Kester makes some claims about reducing voiding. Their R560 water soluble paste has a statement that it reduces voiding from 25% to less than 10%. Their R562 water soluble formula has a statement that voids will be reduced to less than 3%. I'll send you the *.PDF datasheets for both.
<BR>
<BR>I've never done any tests to verify that, so maybe you'll find out if it's true!
<BR>
<BR>-Steve Gregory-
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>
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Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 09:46:21 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Dielectric Constants For Core and Prepreg
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hello Sona,
Sorry for the delay, I am trying to catch up on emails... It appears that
the reference to 4.3 to 5.3 is the dielectric constant (Er or Dk). Someone
placing this on the fab document is wrong (humble opinion of mine). What
they are eluding to is 50% or less resin and if that is the case they should
have called out the core and pregs by part number. Even then it would be a
first for me... someone requiring high Er.
I would call for Customer approval of book prior to fab. Minimally clarify
if the Er range is an average or individual rating. It is better to be a
"pain in the neck" fabricator on paper than one with rejected parts.
Boston Brad
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Hello Sona,<BR>
<BR>
Sorry for the delay, I am trying to catch up on emails... It appears that the reference to 4.3 to 5.3 is the dielectric constant (Er or Dk). Someone placing this on the fab document is wrong (humble opinion of mine). What they are eluding to is 50% or less resin and if that is the case they should have called out the core and pregs by part number. Even then it would be a first for me... someone requiring high Er. <BR>
I would call for Customer approval of book prior to fab. Minimally clarify if the Er range is an average or individual rating. It is better to be a "pain in the neck" fabricator on paper than one with rejected parts.<BR>
<BR>
Boston Brad</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 10:20:48 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Bissonnette, Jean-Francois" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Bissonnette, Jean-Francois" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Board analysis
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hi all,
Need to find a place where I can have a board analysis done as soon as
possible
around Montreal. Cross section has to be done and any other kind of
analysis will
certainly be useful. =20
Contact me offline if needed.
Jean-Fran=E7ois Bissonnette
V=E9rificateur, Contr=F4le de la Qualit=E9
=C9lectronique
Produits et Proc=E9d=E9s
Vapor Rail Inc.
10655 Henri-Bourassa O.
St-Laurent, Qc
H4S 1A1
(514) 335-4200 x2021
(514) 335-4231 fax
WABTEC CORPORATION CONFIDENTIALITY NOTE
The content contained in this e-mail transmission is legally privileged and=
confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or en=
tity named herein. If the reader of this transmission is not the intended r=
ecipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or =
copying of this transmission is strictly prohibited.
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Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 11:01:46 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: BGA Solderability
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BGA Solder Ball studies recommending that the Non Solder Mask Defined land is
the more reliable than the Solder Mask Defined land configuration. One study
gets a lot of publicity due to the resin run out creating the "arrowhead"
effect causation for crack formation and further propagation. It used .003
thick solder mask (dry film); that is just not smart. In any event the NSMD
land went over 500 cycles more than the SMD, but the SMD land already went
over 4000! How far in the reliability range does one have to be??? I like,
even prefer the Solder Mask Defined configuration due to its ability to
lessen contamination areas adjacent to lands and facilitate the flow of
underfill (my own observations). I used to disagree, now I place in the
category of "don't care."
My "don't care" attitude is based on either configuration is sound and there
are more subtle contributors that have larger impact, ie VIP, active PTH hole
fill, PTH fill prior to mask, PWB pad size, stencil design, ability to modify
either, solder paste selection, current/4 mil web, FR4 verses material X, and
so forth. I like BGAs, much more than the +300 pin count devices and the sub
19.5 pitches.
Well, kinda venting... thanks for listening.
Boston brad
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Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">BGA Solder Ball studies recommending that the Non Solder Mask Defined land is the more reliable than the Solder Mask Defined land configuration. One study gets a lot of publicity due to the resin run out creating the "arrowhead" effect causation for crack formation and further propagation. It used .003 thick solder mask (dry film); that is just not smart. In any event the NSMD land went over 500 cycles more than the SMD, but the SMD land already went over 4000! How far in the reliability range does one have to be??? I like, even prefer the Solder Mask Defined configuration due to its ability to lessen contamination areas adjacent to lands and facilitate the flow of underfill (my own observations). I used to disagree, now I place in the category of "don't care." <BR>
My "don't care" attitude is based on either configuration is sound and there are more subtle contributors that have larger impact, ie VIP, active PTH hole fill, PTH fill prior to mask, PWB pad size, stencil design, ability to modify either, solder paste selection, current/4 mil web, FR4 verses material X, and so forth. I like BGAs, much more than the +300 pin count devices and the sub 19.5 pitches.<BR>
<BR>
Well, kinda venting... thanks for listening.<BR>
<BR>
Boston brad</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 09:10:22 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
rgrant <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: rgrant <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Anti-voiding solder paste
X-To: "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>
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Hi Daan,
I've used the Kester R560 and WOW, talk about solving voiding problems.
After using it on a problematic BGA, and I would have thought tacky flux had
been used instead of solder paste.
BTW, if you want to find out if your solder paste is causing the voids, use
tacky flux on that BGA. Because a BGA ball is spherical, the ball will
touch the pad at a single point and wet from the center out. This makes it
impossible for the ball to trap air or flux from the tacky flux itself. If
voids occur, it will occur because the void was 'injected' into the ball.
You can simple tape the BGA apertures closed on the stencil and screen print
your solder paste on the rest of the board. Then, before your first pick
and place machine, just swab tacky flux on the BGA pads with a cotton swab.
(Don't worry, the BGA won't short.)
Good Luck,
Ryan Grant
-----Original Message-----
From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 6:56 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Anti-voiding solder paste
Hi Daan,
Kester makes some claims about reducing voiding. Their R560 water soluble
paste has a statement that it reduces voiding from 25% to less than 10%.
Their R562 water soluble formula has a statement that voids will be reduced
to less than 3%. I'll send you the *.PDF datasheets for both.
I've never done any tests to verify that, so maybe you'll find out if it's
true!
-Steve Gregory-
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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<HTML><HEAD>
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<META content="MSHTML 5.00.3105.105" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=720055814-28052002>Hi
Daan, </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=720055814-28052002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=720055814-28052002>I've
used the Kester R560 and WOW, talk about solving voiding problems. After
using it on a problematic BGA, and I would have thought tacky flux had been used
instead of solder paste.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=720055814-28052002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=720055814-28052002>BTW,
if you want to find out if your solder paste is causing the voids, use
tacky flux on that BGA. Because a BGA ball is spherical, the ball will
touch the pad at a single point and wet from the center out. This makes it
impossible for the ball to trap air or flux from the tacky flux itself. If
voids occur, it will occur because the void was 'injected' into the ball.
You can simple tape the BGA apertures closed on the stencil and screen print
your solder paste on the rest of the board. Then, before your first pick
and place machine, just swab tacky flux on the BGA pads with a cotton
swab. (Don't worry, the BGA won't short.) </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=720055814-28052002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=720055814-28052002>Good
Luck,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=720055814-28052002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=720055814-28052002>Ryan
Grant</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> [log in to unmask]
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 28, 2002 6:56
AM<BR><B>To:</B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [TN] Anti-voiding solder
paste<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=2>Hi Daan,
<BR><BR>Kester makes some claims about reducing voiding. Their R560 water
soluble paste has a statement that it reduces voiding from 25% to less than 10%.
Their R562 water soluble formula has a statement that voids will be reduced to
less than 3%. I'll send you the *.PDF datasheets for both. <BR><BR>I've never
done any tests to verify that, so maybe you'll find out if it's true!
<BR><BR>-Steve Gregory- <BR><BR></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 11:10:32 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: PCB materials
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I would pick FR4 for this job. I select my FR4 Tgs by layer count not on
final product environment. If this were a 1 to 6 or 8 layer board or had
nice annular ring, I would go 140 Tg. It is more robust in elevated temps
over long periods. Based on operating temps don't exceed 125 C. If you are
doing a lot of bare board prebaking I would be cautious on surface finish
selection. I am not an advocate of prebakes over two to three hours.
Boston Brad
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">I would pick FR4 for this job. I select my FR4 Tgs by layer count not on final product environment. If this were a 1 to 6 or 8 layer board or had nice annular ring, I would go 140 Tg. It is more robust in elevated temps over long periods. Based on operating temps don't exceed 125 C. If you are doing a lot of bare board prebaking I would be cautious on surface finish selection. I am not an advocate of prebakes over two to three hours.<BR>
<BR>
Boston Brad</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 11:17:12 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: PCB materials
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Ryan,
Begin the reading frenzy. Start with laminate suppliers (Polyclad, Arlon,
Nelco, Rogars and more) then hit some of the PWB fab books and then back to
basics, the materials; thermosets verses thermoplastics. My tip: have lots
of yellow stickees. The humidity seems like the biggest pot hole on the road
to success. Good luck and happy motoring. I like FR4.
Brad
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Ryan,<BR>
<BR>
Begin the reading frenzy. Start with laminate suppliers (Polyclad, Arlon, Nelco, Rogars and more) then hit some of the PWB fab books and then back to basics, the materials; thermosets verses thermoplastics. My tip: have lots of yellow stickees. The humidity seems like the biggest pot hole on the road to success. Good luck and happy motoring. I like FR4.<BR>
<BR>
Brad</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 11:21:38 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: BGA Solderability
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Earl,
I like them (SMD), but @ .8 and below it is a mute point, there is no room
for controlled encroachment of solder mask unto pads. Done properly
encroachment is less than .004 (XY about perimeter) and <.0004. That is oh
oh oh four. That is a pretty small number.
Brad
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Earl,<BR>
<BR>
I like them (SMD), but @ .8 and below it is a mute point, there is no room for controlled encroachment of solder mask unto pads. Done properly encroachment is less than .004 (XY about perimeter) and <.0004. That is oh oh oh four. That is a pretty small number.<BR>
<BR>
Brad</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 11:22:12 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Tempea, Ioan" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Tempea, Ioan" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Board analysis
X-To: "Bissonnette, Jean-Francois" <[log in to unmask]>
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Salut JF,
IBM in Bromont does it all.
Call 1-888-IBM-LABO, or (450) 534-6594
Regards,
Ioan
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bissonnette, Jean-Francois [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 10:21 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] Board analysis
>=20
> Hi all,
>=20
> Need to find a place where I can have a board analysis done as soon =
as
> possible
> around Montreal. Cross section has to be done and any other kind of
> analysis will
> certainly be useful. =20
>=20
> Contact me offline if needed.
>=20
> Jean-Fran=E7ois Bissonnette
> V=E9rificateur, Contr=F4le de la Qualit=E9
> =C9lectronique
> Produits et Proc=E9d=E9s
> Vapor Rail Inc.
> 10655 Henri-Bourassa O.
> St-Laurent, Qc
> H4S 1A1
>=20
> (514) 335-4200 x2021
> (514) 335-4231 fax
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> WABTEC CORPORATION CONFIDENTIALITY NOTE
> The content contained in this e-mail transmission is legally =
privileged
> and confidential information intended only for the use of the =
individual
> or entity named herein. If the reader of this transmission is not the
> intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
> distribution, or copying of this transmission is strictly prohibited.
>=20
> =
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Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 11:28:28 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: PCB materials
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The "non woven" materials may have low CTE numbers by themselves but I would
pay heed to the external layer CTE when layer below is a plane and separated
by .005. The CTE goes up. With the plane thickness being one or two ounce,
hold on. It can be quite a bumpy ride. The non wovens are not the end all
answer to dielectric (low CTE, high manufactuability) that I once hoped. The
epoxy is nice relative to moisture... just watch out for Z expansion in
either material.
Brad
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">The "non woven" materials may have low CTE numbers by themselves but I would pay heed to the external layer CTE when layer below is a plane and separated by .005. The CTE goes up. With the plane thickness being one or two ounce, hold on. It can be quite a bumpy ride. The non wovens are not the end all answer to dielectric (low CTE, high manufactuability) that I once hoped. The epoxy is nice relative to moisture... just watch out for Z expansion in either material.<BR>
<BR>
Brad</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 11:31:52 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Conformal coating / gluing
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I always bond prior to coat. I do nothing after coating... except an
occasional rework... err modification. I like the question of bonding
regarding solder mask or laminate... I like solder mask
Brad
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">I always bond prior to coat. I do nothing after coating... except an occasional rework... err modification. I like the question of bonding regarding solder mask or laminate... I like solder mask<BR>
<BR>
Brad</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 16:59:39 +0100
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Mike Fenner <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SV: [TN] Vapor phase
X-To: [log in to unmask]
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Hi Graham, no I think we are in agreement, or at least not in dispute.
Thanks for the opportunity to clarify.
- the amount of energy required to melt the solder is the amount required,
you have to pay for it irrespective of method. The medium for transferring
from the electrical heater to the solder is free if air not if chemical. I
agree that there will be differences in efficiency one machine type to
another, one medium to another and between realisations of the same process
between manufacturers, and this is what you have to evaluate as suggested.
Possibly the cost of the vapour may well not be incremental in that context.
My remarks were an opinion about saturated vapour phase, I should have said
batch saturated vapour phase, unsaturated or inline machines may well be
different, see above.
Kind Regards
Mike Fenner
Applications Engineer, European Operations
Indium Corporation
T: + 44 1908 580 400
M: + 44 7810 526 317
F: + 44 1908 580 411
E: [log in to unmask]
W: www.indium.com
Leadfree: www.Pb-Free.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Graham Naisbitt [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 5:05 PM
To: [log in to unmask]; [log in to unmask]
Subject: RE: [TN] SV: [TN] Vapor phase
Mike
Your info is not quite correct.
Consider: Running cost for latest VP system as my message described is
<US$2 per hour including capital amortisation. Air may be free, but
electricity isn't and nor is Nitrogen.
Regards Graham Naisbitt
Concoat Limited
Alasan House, Albany Park
Camberley GU16 7PH - UK
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Mike Fenner
> Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 14:20
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] SV: [TN] Vapor phase
>
>
> Brian:, its not the dissolved oxygen so much as the fact the
> vapour doesn't displace all the air.
>
> Björn: At the risk of being pedantic, an advantage of
> saturated vapour phase, and a principal factor in its
> original introduction for back plane soldering, and
> subsequent adoption in surface mount, is its ability to heat
> very uniformly almost irrespective of work size or geometry.
> This uniformity allows ramp rates which are much higher than
> is possible with other mechanisms for heat transfer.
>
> Anyone: However VPR heat transfer fluids are more expensive
> than, and clearly have an environmental impact which is
> greater than, the most common alternative medium used in
> conventional reflow ovens. Air is free :)
>
> The process advantages of VPR - which I fully appreciate -
> have to be set against its costs and disadvantages on a case
> by case basis. IMHO I think that this sort of analysis will
> show that for odd geometries heavy parts mixed prototyping
> etc, and for adhesive [epoxy] curing, saturated VPR has some
> attractions. Certainly it's a process which is hard to get
> wrong on one offs, but its harder to get really optimum on
> longer runs.
>
>
> Kind Regards
>
> Mike Fenner
>
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Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 11:38:29 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: PCB materials
X-To: [log in to unmask]
We all hoped for the best but, as usual, compromises exist with any material
selection. Too many uneducated/inexperienced "young" gun designers are
getting carried away with Thermount.
Most of the designs I work with need not have negative CTE's for anything.
Certainly don't need it for leaded devices or BGA's for that matter and hole
wall expansion can be accounted for by specifiec plating thickness and
adequate ductility.
As for the moisture, at .5%, there's no way to use this material with OSP's.
As for the prebaking, you're right on here. With OSP's, as one example, it's
gone when recommended prebake cycles of about 3 hours are done. This is true
notwithstanding the core and preg bake cycles before relamination.
Sure would be nice to have the ideal mateerial but, as you say, study what
works best for your application.
Earl
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Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 11:42:09 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: BGA Solderability
X-To: [log in to unmask]
Brad,
Certainly don't need any solder mask on those really small pads what ever
the number. Also, I don't buy arguments concerning solder mask defined pads
as a "saftey" net to ensure pads stay on board surfaces. That's just the
wrong reason for using it if needed at all. NSD pads work well for most
everything out there.
Earl
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Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 12:52:56 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
rgrant <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: rgrant <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Vapor phase
X-To: Stefano Riccardi <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C20678.E133B660"
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
------_=_NextPart_001_01C20678.E133B660
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi Stefano,
The big dissadvantage of convection reflow is that light components will
warm up faster than heavy ones, so some boards designs can be a little
tricky to profile just right. But it is still done at thousands of shops
around the world. Although I've never used vapor phase, the fundamental
principles of vapor phase takes care of those headaches. However, the
electronics industry in 'general', has moved away from vapor phase due to
the headaches associated with environmental concerns, cost of the chemistry,
and difficulty in equipment support. The bottom line is, few companies can
make money operating a vapor phase reflow oven; something to think about.
Of course, there are shops that still use them for one reason or another.
Regards
Ryan Grant
-----Original Message-----
From: Stefano Riccardi [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 12:32 AM
To: TechNet E-Mail Forum.; rgrant
Subject: Re: Re: [TN] Vapor phase
Hi all
The board CAN be reflowed, but the assembler told me that the vapor phase
has a lot of advantages...
So i'm asking a third-part opinion..... I'd like to know the advantages and
the disadvantages of the vapor phase compared to standard reflow.
Regards
Stefano
----- Original Message -----
From: rgrant <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 7:55 PM
Subject: Re: [TN] Vapor phase
Hi Stefano,
Am I missing something? Why can't that board be reflowed using a standard
convection reflow process?
-----Original Message-----
From: Stefano Riccardi [ mailto:[log in to unmask]
<mailto:[log in to unmask]> ]
Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 1:32 AM
To: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: [TN] Vapor phase
Hi all!
We are currently looking for the assembling of a double side SMT - one side
THT (High pin count connectors) board, with a lot of BGA.
An assembler proposed us the use of vapor Phase reflow soldering.
Any comment about this method?
Can someone tell me where I can find informations (books, www, publications)
about the vapor phase soldering?
Thanks!
------_=_NextPart_001_01C20678.E133B660
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 5.00.3105.105" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=735190018-28052002>Hi
Stefano,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=735190018-28052002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=735190018-28052002>The
big dissadvantage of convection reflow is that light components will warm up
faster than heavy ones, so some boards designs can be a little tricky to profile
just right. But it is still done at thousands of shops around
the world. Although I've never used vapor phase, the fundamental
principles of vapor phase takes care of those headaches. However, the
electronics industry in 'general', has moved away from vapor phase due to
the headaches associated with environmental concerns, cost of the
chemistry, and difficulty in equipment support. The bottom line is, few
companies can make money operating a vapor phase reflow oven; something to think
about. Of course, there are shops that still use them for one reason or
another. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=735190018-28052002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=735190018-28052002>Regards</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=735190018-28052002>Ryan
Grant</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=735190018-28052002></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Stefano Riccardi
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, May 27, 2002 12:32
AM<BR><B>To:</B> TechNet E-Mail Forum.; rgrant<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Re: [TN]
Vapor phase<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hi all</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The board CAN be reflowed, but the assembler told
me that the vapor phase has a lot of advantages...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>So i'm asking a third-part opinion.</FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2>.... I'd like to know the advantages and the
disadvantages of the vapor phase compared to standard reflow.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Regards </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Stefano</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" [log in to unmask]>rgrant</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A href="mailto:[log in to unmask]"
[log in to unmask]>[log in to unmask]</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, May 24, 2002 7:55 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [TN] Vapor phase</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=305095317-24052002>Hi
Stefano,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=305095317-24052002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=305095317-24052002>Am I
missing something? Why can't that board be reflowed using a standard
convection reflow process?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Stefano Riccardi [<A
href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]</A>]<BR><B>Sent:</B>
Friday, May 24, 2002 1:32 AM<BR><B>To:</B> <A
href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A><BR><B>Subject:</B> [TN]
Vapor phase<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hi all!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>We are currently looking for the assembling of a
double side SMT - one side THT (High pin count connectors) board, with a lot
of BGA.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>An assembler proposed us the use of vapor Phase
reflow soldering.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Any comment about this method?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Can someone tell me where I can find
informations (books, www, publications) about the vapor phase
soldering?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Thanks!</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
------_=_NextPart_001_01C20678.E133B660--
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Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 14:22:10 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Vapor phase
X-To: Ryan Grant <[log in to unmask]>
Some things just can't be soldered any other way.
MoonMan
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Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 16:06:12 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Vapor phase
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="part1_29.27c9c2be.2a253d34_boundary"
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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> Some things just can't be soldered any other way.
>
> MoonMan
>
Yeah MoonMan...like the Trillium PE assembly, huh?
-Steve Gregory-
--part1_29.27c9c2be.2a253d34_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Some things just can't be soldered any other way.
<BR>
<BR>MoonMan
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>Yeah MoonMan...like the Trillium PE assembly, huh?
<BR>
<BR>-Steve Gregory-
<BR></FONT></HTML>
--part1_29.27c9c2be.2a253d34_boundary--
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Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 15:05:35 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Vapor phase
X-To: [log in to unmask]
Right on Steve,
Always great to know someone who's been there and done that. Lot's of folks
out there now reinventing the wheel that first was turned in the late '70's
with the first military SMT stuff then on to trillium like stuff in the
early to mid '80's.
Outstanding, and I really want to know more about the latest condensation
reflow technology. Anything new Mr. Nasbitt?
Earl
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Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 22:50:41 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Graham Naisbitt <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Graham Naisbitt <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Vapor phase
X-To: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Well, yes!
As I said in my earlier postings, there have been some developments that
make this whole exercise easier / cheaper (sorry - less expensive) and
more convenient than the "good old days"!
I fully take on board your comment Earl, about equipment support. That
is an issue as it always was with relatively new "start-up's". However,
we can all get there in the end and can / have learned from the past....
If anyone is keen / willing / able, I will be happy to negotiate a demo
system to a suitable location that everyone can then critique. Earl,
Steve, you seem like suitable candidates for criticism of a new
technology, how about it? It can't be free, cos I ain't made of money -
contrary to the views of some!
Regards Graham Naisbitt
[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Concoat ANNOUNCE their acquisition of the former Multicore SPCID
business.
MUST II Solderability Testing Systems -
CM Cleanliness Testing Systems -
Auto-SIR Reliability Testing Systems -
SoldaPro & NEW SoldaPro Wizard Thermal Profilers
For more information please visit our new web site:
www.concoatsystems.com <http://www.concoatsystems.com>
Concoat Limited
Alasan House, Albany Park
Camberley GU16 7PH - UK
www.concoat.co.uk <http://www.concoat.co.uk>
Phone: +44 1276 691100
Fax: +44 1276 691227
Mobile: +44 79 6858 2121
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Earl Moon
> Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 21:06
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Vapor phase
>
>
> Right on Steve,
>
> Always great to know someone who's been there and done that.
> Lot's of folks out there now reinventing the wheel that first
> was turned in the late '70's with the first military SMT
> stuff then on to trillium like stuff in the early to mid '80's.
>
> Outstanding, and I really want to know more about the latest
> condensation reflow technology. Anything new Mr. Nasbitt?
>
> Earl
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> -------------------
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Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 18:07:02 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Vapor phase
X-To: [log in to unmask]
Daham Graham,
I thought you were true green. I vote for Steve's place of business. He, if
it's alright now to say it, has his technological brother (Jason Gregory)
working along side. These two folks, and the fact they have some great and
advanced boards, should be able to swing it and get a machine in no time.
Other folks, with whom I've worked, such as Cray always pull out the old
style vapor systems when the need arises. Let's face it, 50 layer boards
with SMT and through hole can't be soldered any other way.
Keep pushin a good thing, again, Graham,
Earl
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Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 07:44:57 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Werner Engelmaier <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: BGA SMD vs NSMD
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hi 'Boston brad,'
It all "depends."
You did not say in what tests with what kind of BGS and what kind of details
4000 vs 4500 cycles were gotten for SMD vs NSMD. It makes a big difference.
For relatively behign T-cycles the difference is about 30%, whereas for
severe T-cycles I have seen a factor of 3 differences. This is for OMPAC-type
BGAs; for Tessera-design CSPs the difference will be much smaller. Whether
both, NSMD, or neither is reliable for a given application depends on the
details. For "How far in the reliability range does one have to be???," you
may want to take a look at Appendix A of IPC-9701.
Werner Engelmaier
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Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 07:50:24 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Guy Ramsey <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Guy Ramsey <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Looking for recent PCB Reliability model
X-To: Jim Lamb <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Was cleaning up my email, noticed nobody had responed to your request.
Here is a link,
http://www.circuitree.com/CDA/ArticleInformation/features/BNP__Features__Ite
m/0,2133,2133,00.html
I wonder if the work resulted in anything.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Jim Lamb
> Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 3:14 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] Looking for recent PCB Reliability model
>
>
> Hi, I am looking for a Rigid printed circuit board reliability model
> that is more recent than the MIL-217 or AT&T model. It would include
> factors for blind and buried vias as well as soldered and unsoldered
> through holes and surface mount solder joints. Usually there is also a
> board complexity factor based on the number of layers.
>
> Any suggestions on where to look would be appreciated.
>
> Jim Lamb
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
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> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------
>
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Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 09:33:28 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
tony steinke <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: tony steinke <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: conductive blind via plug
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Techies,
We have done some initial testing on the DuPont CB100 conductive via =
plug with blind via application and so far have been unsuccessful. The =
blind via is approximately .016 diameter and .030 in depth. The biggest =
problem we are experiencing is getting adhesion(BGA pads popping off) =
with=20
copper plating after the CB100 has been applied. Is there
another type of conductive blind via plug recipe on the market.
Thanks for any comments
Tony Steinke
------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C206F3.E35F7A20
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charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Techies,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>We have done some initial testing on =
the =20
DuPont CB100 conductive </FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>via plug with =
blind via=20
application and so far have been unsuccessful. The blind via is =
approximately=20
.016 diameter and .030 in depth. The biggest problem we are experiencing =
is=20
getting adhesion(BGA pads popping off) with </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>copper plating after the CB100 has been =
applied. Is=20
there</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>another type of conductive blind via =
plug recipe on=20
the market.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks for any comments</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Tony Steinke</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 10:29:29 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Vapor phase
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There is some data being generated at JPL. They just bought another Vapor phase (or put in request for one). I am sure somebody did some home work to justify that. It may just be another $600 toilet seat, but worthwhile to find out why.
Rush
Accurate Engg Inc.
818-768-3919
www.accueng.com
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Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 10:47:59 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: BGA SMD vs NSMD
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Werner,
Always a pleasure to read your mailings. I applaud and wholeheartedly agree
with your "depends" statement. It is my perspective that evaluation criteria
is not always available; temp cycling conditions, reflow parameters, device
quality, substrate configuration and quantity of sample size. Albeit
skeptical on my part, I suspect agenda driven evaluations render predictable
results.
I see the microelectronic packaging scheme of things as a systems approach
wherein the propensity to be reliable may not seem to be significant but
compared to the propensity to be unreliable it is large. Indeed the PBGA
substrate design that warps will go many fewer cycles than a similar "flat"
package regardless of pad definition.
The cycles I have seen have been
elevated shock from -55 to 125C
nice ramps and dwell times of
-30 to 100C
-55 to 125C
and burn in 80-90F
The -30 to 100C specifically addressed SMD verses NSMD. Although large voids
were present not much correlation to root cause was discussed.
Brad Saunders
Coretec Boston office
781 858 0783
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Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Werner,<BR>
<BR>
Always a pleasure to read your mailings. I applaud and wholeheartedly agree with your "depends" statement. It is my perspective that evaluation criteria is not always available; temp cycling conditions, reflow parameters, device quality, substrate configuration and quantity of sample size. Albeit skeptical on my part, I suspect agenda driven evaluations render predictable results. <BR>
I see the microelectronic packaging scheme of things as a systems approach wherein the propensity to be reliable may not seem to be significant but compared to the propensity to be unreliable it is large. Indeed the PBGA substrate design that warps will go many fewer cycles than a similar "flat" package regardless of pad definition. <BR>
The cycles I have seen have been <BR>
elevated shock from -55 to 125C<BR>
nice ramps and dwell times of<BR>
-30 to 100C<BR>
-55 to 125C<BR>
and burn in 80-90F<BR>
<BR>
The -30 to 100C specifically addressed SMD verses NSMD. Although large voids were present not much correlation to root cause was discussed.<BR>
<BR>
Brad Saunders<BR>
Coretec Boston office<BR>
781 858 0783</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 07:52:27 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Russell Burdick <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Russell Burdick <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: conductive blind via plug
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Please describe the process steps you are currently using to build the
boards.
Russ
>From: tony steinke <[log in to unmask]>
>Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, tony steinke
><[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: [TN] conductive blind via plug
>Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 09:33:28 -0700
>
>Techies,
>We have done some initial testing on the DuPont CB100 conductive via plug
>with blind via application and so far have been unsuccessful. The blind via
>is approximately .016 diameter and .030 in depth. The biggest problem we
>are experiencing is getting adhesion(BGA pads popping off) with
>copper plating after the CB100 has been applied. Is there
>another type of conductive blind via plug recipe on the market.
>Thanks for any comments
>Tony Steinke
_________________________________________________________________
Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
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Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 11:40:15 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
bbarr <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: bbarr <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: FPBGA Area Ratio Question
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On a fine pitch BGA (.8mm pitch, 384 balls, .5mm ball diameter) I am using a
.014" diameter land per TI's recommendation. I was thinking then of a .013"
square stencil aperture with .003" radiused corners on a 5 mil plate. This
seemed reasonable until I did an area ratio calculation per IPC-7525. The
result was .592, which fails compared to the acceptable value of >.66. The
aspect ratio is a solid 2.6, although IPC says I should not consider aspect
ratio in this case, only area ratio. If I reduce down to a .012" square
aperture I can get to an area ratio of .642. Still fails, but close. But,
reducing the aperture 2 mils compared to the pad seems extreme and violates
the recommendation in para. 3.2.2.4. So my question is, what do you guys and
gals use for an aperture design on a component like this? Do you go by the
IPC guidelines?
Thanks.
Bob
=======================
Robert Barr
Manufacturing Engineering
Formation, Inc.
Voice: 856-234-5020 x3035
Fax: 856-234-6679
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Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 17:43:13 +0200
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Zweigart, Siegmund" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Zweigart, Siegmund" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Voids in BGA/CSP Balls
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hello
Did anyone have acceptance criteria for voids in BGA balls before assembling
and reflow?
Is there something in IPC?
Regards
Siggi
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Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 12:57:00 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Sherif Refaat <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Sherif Refaat <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Anti-voiding solder paste
X-To: "d. terstegge" <[log in to unmask]>
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Hi Daan,
If the same solder paste is used on other boards and there is no problem, I
do not see how the solder paste could be the cause of the voids problem on
this specific board.
I agree with the e-mail that recommends taking cross sections.
I had a similar "BIG" problem on boards that were built using sequential
lamination. By taking cross sections of the problem solder joints I found
out that the copper plating on top of the epoxy that filled the blind via
was partially missing. Further analysis proved that the electroless copper
did not cover the epoxy that filled the blind vias properly, hence the
electro plated copper was missing from these spots. It seems to me that the
pure resin, filling the blind via holes and going all the way to the
surface, needed special treatment different from the standard permanganate
that is normally used to prepare the inside of the holes for plating. AOI
was not able to detect the missing copper. If your vias in pads board is
built using sequential lamination, this could be the problem.
Regards,
Sherif Refaat, Eng.
Technology Roadmap Consultants Inc.
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
E-mail: [log in to unmask]
Tel. (514) 624 9842
Fax (514) 624 0091
----- Original Message -----
From: "d. terstegge" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 6:37 AM
Subject: [TN] Anti-voiding solder paste
Dear Technetters,
I'm having some problems with really big voids (up to 50% of the diameter)
in the solderjoints of BGA's. The problems occur on our only board that has
via's in the BGA-pads. The via's are filled and plated, so from the outside
you don't see they're there.
I'm quite sure that it's the board that's causing the problems, but the
boardvendor does not agree and thinks our solderpaste is causing it.
To prove that I'm right (or to solve the problem if the boardvendor is
right !) I'd like to do some tests with a solderpaste that's known to cause
a minimal amount of voiding. From earlier discussions I learned that such
solderpastes exist.
Does anyone have a recommendation for such a solderpaste ?
Daan Terstegge
SMT Centre
Thales Communications
Unclassified mail
Personal Website: http://www.smtinfo.net
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Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 13:02:09 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Franck, George" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Franck, George" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: conductive blind via plug
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Tony,
Are you doing the via plugging before the final lamination, while the buried
vias are still Thru-vias?
i.e...
Press layers 1-4; Drill 1-4; plate; CB fill vias; plate;
Press layers 5-8; Drill 5-8; plate; CB fill vias; plate;
Press layers 1-8; Drill 1-8; plate;
--OR--
Are you are stuffing CB-100 into a blind, depth-control drilled hole?
If it is the later, I am not surprised you are having trouble.
George Franck
My opinions are just that.
-----Original Message-----
From: tony steinke [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 12:33 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] conductive blind via plug
Techies,
We have done some initial testing on the DuPont CB100 conductive via plug
with blind via application and so far have been unsuccessful. The blind via
is approximately .016 diameter and .030 in depth. The biggest problem we are
experiencing is getting adhesion(BGA pads popping off) with
copper plating after the CB100 has been applied. Is there
another type of conductive blind via plug recipe on the market.
Thanks for any comments
Tony Steinke
------_=_NextPart_001_01C20732.9192EE40
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<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=031552015-29052002>Tony,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=031552015-29052002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=031552015-29052002>Are
you doing the via plugging before the final lamination, while the buried vias
are still Thru-vias?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=031552015-29052002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=031552015-29052002>i.e...</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=031552015-29052002>Press
layers 1-4; Drill 1-4; plate; <SPAN class=031552015-29052002>CB fill vias;
plate;</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=031552015-29052002>Press
layers 5-8; Drill 5-8; plate; <SPAN class=031552015-29052002>CB fill vias;
plate;</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=031552015-29052002>Press
layers 1-8; Drill 1-8; plate;</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=031552015-29052002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2>-<SPAN
class=031552015-29052002>-OR--</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN
class=031552015-29052002></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN
class=031552015-29052002>Are </SPAN><SPAN class=031552015-29052002>you are
stuffing CB-100 into a blind, depth-control drilled
hole?</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=031552015-29052002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=031552015-29052002>If it
is the later, I am not surprised you are having trouble.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=031552015-29052002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=031552015-29052002>George
Franck</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=031552015-29052002>My
opinions are just that.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> tony steinke
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, May 29, 2002
12:33 PM<BR><B>To:</B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> [TN] conductive
blind via plug<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Techies,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>We have done some initial testing on the
DuPont CB100 conductive </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>via plug with blind via
application and so far have been unsuccessful. The blind via is approximately
.016 diameter and .030 in depth. The biggest problem we are experiencing is
getting adhesion(BGA pads popping off) with </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>copper plating after the CB100 has been applied.
Is there</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>another type of conductive blind via plug recipe
on the market.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Thanks for any comments</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Tony
Steinke</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 13:09:50 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
tony steinke <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: tony steinke <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: conductive blind via plug
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Don, Russ, Rush
The application is a blind via under BGA pad. The process sequence is:
Lase via
electroless
full panel electroplate
CB100(lase vias only)
flash electroplate
drill
electroless
image=20
pattern plate
strip/etch
Thanks for the input.
Tony Steinke
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Don Vischulis=20
To: tony steinke=20
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 9:49 AM
Subject: RE: [TN] conductive blind via plug
Tony,
Please supply process details. The manufacturing sequence may be part =
of the root problem.
Don Vischulis
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of tony steinke
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 11:33 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] conductive blind via plug
Techies,
We have done some initial testing on the DuPont CB100 conductive via =
plug with blind via application and so far have been unsuccessful. The =
blind via is approximately .016 diameter and .030 in depth. The biggest =
problem we are experiencing is getting adhesion(BGA pads popping off) =
with=20
copper plating after the CB100 has been applied. Is there
another type of conductive blind via plug recipe on the market.
Thanks for any comments
Tony Steinke
------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C20712.1DA73BA0
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Don, Russ, Rush</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The application is a blind via under =
BGA pad. The=20
process sequence is:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Lase via</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>electroless</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>full panel electroplate</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>CB100(lase vias only)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>flash electroplate</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>drill</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>electroless</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>image </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>pattern plate</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>strip/etch</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks for the input.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Tony Steinke</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A [log in to unmask] =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">Don=20
Vischulis</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
[log in to unmask]
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">tony steinke</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, May 29, 2002 =
9:49=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [TN] conductive =
blind via=20
plug</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D796484816-29052002>Tony,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D796484816-29052002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D796484816-29052002>Please supply process details. The=20
manufacturing sequence may be part of the root =
problem.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D796484816-29052002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D796484816-29052002>Don=20
Vischulis</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> TechNet=20
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<B>On Behalf Of </B>tony =
steinke<BR><B>Sent:</B>=20
Wednesday, May 29, 2002 11:33 AM<BR><B>To:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A><BR><B>Subject:</B> =
[TN]=20
conductive blind via plug<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Techies,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>We have done some initial testing on =
the =20
DuPont CB100 conductive </FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>via plug =
with blind via=20
application and so far have been unsuccessful. The blind via is =
approximately=20
.016 diameter and .030 in depth. The biggest problem we are =
experiencing is=20
getting adhesion(BGA pads popping off) with </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>copper plating after the CB100 has =
been applied.=20
Is there</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>another type of conductive blind via =
plug recipe=20
on the market.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks for any comments</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Tony=20
Steinke</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 13:11:18 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Torres, Roberto" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Torres, Roberto" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: PCB materials
X-To: [log in to unmask]
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Brad;
Thanks for your suggestion. That also includes everyone else who responded
to include Moon man.
Regards
Bob Torres
-----Original Message-----
From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 8:11 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] PCB materials
I would pick FR4 for this job. I select my FR4 Tgs by layer count not on
final product environment. If this were a 1 to 6 or 8 layer board or had
nice annular ring, I would go 140 Tg. It is more robust in elevated temps
over long periods. Based on operating temps don't exceed 125 C. If you are
doing a lot of bare board prebaking I would be cautious on surface finish
selection. I am not an advocate of prebakes over two to three hours.
Boston Brad
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<DIV><SPAN class=196111017-29052002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Brad;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=196111017-29052002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=196111017-29052002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Thanks
for your suggestion. That also includes everyone else who responded to include
Moon man.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=196111017-29052002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=196111017-29052002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Regards</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=196111017-29052002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Bob
Torres</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> [log in to unmask]
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 28, 2002 8:11
AM<BR><B>To:</B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [TN] PCB
materials<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT lang=0
face=Arial size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF">I would pick FR4 for this job. I
select my FR4 Tgs by layer count not on final product environment. If
this were a 1 to 6 or 8 layer board or had nice annular ring, I would go 140
Tg. It is more robust in elevated temps over long periods. Based
on operating temps don't exceed 125 C. If you are doing a lot of bare
board prebaking I would be cautious on surface finish selection. I am
not an advocate of prebakes over two to three hours.<BR><BR>Boston Brad</FONT>
</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 12:41:06 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Becerra Alejandro <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Becerra Alejandro <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: FPBGA Area Ratio Question
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Bob,
I calculate the area ratio using a 5 mil stencil and my numbers do not agree
with yours.
1. Square aperture of 0.013". Area of Aperture = 0.000169.
Area of Lateral Walls = 0.013 X 4
X 0.005 = 0.00026.
Area Ratio = 0.000169/0.00026 =
0.65.
2. Square aperture of 0.012". Area of Aperture = 0.000144.
Area of Lateral Walls = 0.012 X 4
X 0.005 = 0.00024.
Area Ratio = 0.000144/0.00024 =
0.60.
If you take into account the radiused corners the area ratio may be lower.
I calculate for the option 1 (with radiused corner of 0.003") and it was
0.68.
When you reduce the size of the apertures with the same stencil thickness
the area ratio is reduced (not increased)
Regards,
Alejandro Becerra
-----Original Message-----
From: bbarr [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 9:40 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] FPBGA Area Ratio Question
On a fine pitch BGA (.8mm pitch, 384 balls, .5mm ball diameter) I am using a
.014" diameter land per TI's recommendation. I was thinking then of a .013"
square stencil aperture with .003" radiused corners on a 5 mil plate. This
seemed reasonable until I did an area ratio calculation per IPC-7525. The
result was .592, which fails compared to the acceptable value of >.66. The
aspect ratio is a solid 2.6, although IPC says I should not consider aspect
ratio in this case, only area ratio. If I reduce down to a .012" square
aperture I can get to an area ratio of .642. Still fails, but close. But,
reducing the aperture 2 mils compared to the pad seems extreme and violates
the recommendation in para. 3.2.2.4. So my question is, what do you guys and
gals use for an aperture design on a component like this? Do you go by the
IPC guidelines?
Thanks.
Bob
=======================
Robert Barr
Manufacturing Engineering
Formation, Inc.
Voice: 856-234-5020 x3035
Fax: 856-234-6679
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Bob,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>I calculate the area ratio using a 5 mil stencil and =
my numbers do not agree with yours.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>1. Square aperture of 0.013". Area of Aperture =
=3D 0.000169. </FONT>
<BR> =
=
=
=
<FONT SIZE=3D2>Area of =
Lateral Walls =3D 0.013 X 4 X 0.005 =3D 0.00026.</FONT>
<BR> =
=
=
=
<FONT SIZE=3D2>Area Ratio =
=3D 0.000169/0.00026 =3D 0.65.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>2. Square aperture of 0.012". Area of Aperture =
=3D 0.000144. </FONT>
<BR> =
=
=
=
<FONT SIZE=3D2>Area of =
Lateral Walls =3D 0.012 X 4 X 0.005 =3D 0.00024.</FONT>
<BR> =
=
=
=
<FONT SIZE=3D2>Area Ratio =
=3D 0.000144/0.00024 =3D 0.60.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>If you take into account the radiused corners the =
area ratio may be lower.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>I calculate for the option 1 (with radiused corner =
of 0.003") and it was 0.68.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>When you reduce the size of the apertures with the =
same stencil thickness the area ratio is reduced (not increased)</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Regards,</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Alejandro Becerra</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2> </FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: bbarr [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]</A>]</FON=
T>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 9:40 AM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: [log in to unmask]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: [TN] FPBGA Area Ratio Question</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>On a fine pitch BGA (.8mm pitch, 384 balls, .5mm ball =
diameter) I am using a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>.014" diameter land per TI's recommendation. I =
was thinking then of a .013"</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>square stencil aperture with .003" radiused =
corners on a 5 mil plate. This</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>seemed reasonable until I did an area ratio =
calculation per IPC-7525. The</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>result was .592, which fails compared to the =
acceptable value of >.66. The</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>aspect ratio is a solid 2.6, although IPC says I =
should not consider aspect</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>ratio in this case, only area ratio. If I reduce =
down to a .012" square</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>aperture I can get to an area ratio of .642. Still =
fails, but close. But,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>reducing the aperture 2 mils compared to the pad =
seems extreme and violates</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>the recommendation in para. 3.2.2.4. So my question =
is, what do you guys and</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>gals use for an aperture design on a component like =
this? Do you go by the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>IPC guidelines?</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Thanks.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Bob</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Robert Barr</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Manufacturing Engineering</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Formation, Inc.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Voice: 856-234-5020 x3035</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Fax: 856-234-6679</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>---------------------------------------------------------------=
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Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 13:56:47 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Dieselberg, Ron" <[log in to unmask]>
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One of our Quality Managers has asked me to quiz the TechNet for information
on solder defect rates. We think we are pretty good and want to compare
against others in the industry. He has asked for rates for hand soldering
and also machine (automatic) soldering. We deal in two basic product lines;
IR products and Space/Communications.
Any information regarding solder defect rates in the hand soldering and or
automatic soldering areas would be appreciated.
Thank you.
Ron Dieselberg
Trainer/Auditor
CMC ELECTRONICS
CINCINNATI
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">One of our Quality Managers has asked =
me to quiz the TechNet for information on solder defect rates. We think =
we are pretty good and want to compare against others in the industry. =
He has asked for rates for hand soldering and also machine (automatic) =
soldering. We deal in two basic product lines; IR products and =
Space/Communications.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Any information regarding solder =
defect rates in the hand soldering and or automatic soldering areas =
would be appreciated.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Thank you.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Ron Dieselberg</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Trainer/Auditor</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">CMC ELECTRONICS</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">CINCINNATI</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">[log in to unmask]</FONT>
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Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 13:19:38 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Don Vischulis <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Don Vischulis <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: conductive blind via plug
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Tony,
I believe that the problem is that the manufacturing process requires
filling a blind hole with CB100. If the blind vias were cross sectioned,
one would probably find that there were air voids in the CB100. IMO, it is
impossible ( at least extremely difficult) to reliably fill a blind via with
a viscous material. The failure mechanism is most likely expansion of the
entrapped air in the blind via causing the plug to "explode".
Is there a reason for laser drilling blind vias .030" deep? I would think
that conventional sequential lamination with resin filled, copper capped
blind vias would produce a functional, reliable board. A blind via with a
2:1 aspect ratio also has to be causing some interesting metallization
challenges.
Don Vischulis
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of tony steinke
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 3:10 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] conductive blind via plug
Don, Russ, Rush
The application is a blind via under BGA pad. The process sequence is:
Lase via
electroless
full panel electroplate
CB100(lase vias only)
flash electroplate
drill
electroless
image
pattern plate
strip/etch
Thanks for the input.
Tony Steinke
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of tony steinke
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 11:33 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] conductive blind via plug
Techies,
We have done some initial testing on the DuPont CB100 conductive via plug
with blind via application and so far have been unsuccessful. The blind via
is approximately .016 diameter and .030 in depth. The biggest problem we are
experiencing is getting adhesion(BGA pads popping off) with
copper plating after the CB100 has been applied. Is there
another type of conductive blind via plug recipe on the market.
Thanks for any comments
Tony Steinke
------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C20713.7C2F1A70
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D401001018-29052002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Tony,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D401001018-29052002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D401001018-29052002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>I=20
believe that the problem is that the manufacturing process requires =
filling a=20
blind hole with CB100. If the blind vias were cross sectioned, one =
would=20
probably find that there were air voids in the CB100. IMO, it is=20
impossible ( at least extremely difficult) to reliably fill a blind via =
with a=20
viscous material. The failure mechanism is most likely expansion =
of the=20
entrapped air in the blind via causing the plug to=20
"explode".</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D401001018-29052002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D401001018-29052002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Is=20
there a reason for laser drilling blind vias .030" deep? I would =
think=20
that conventional sequential lamination with resin filled, copper capped =
blind=20
vias would produce a functional, reliable board. A blind via with =
a 2:1=20
aspect ratio also has to be causing some interesting metallization=20
challenges.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D401001018-29052002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D401001018-29052002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Don=20
Vischulis</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D401001018-29052002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> TechNet=20
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<B>On Behalf Of </B>tony steinke<BR><B>Sent:</B> =
Wednesday, May 29, 2002 3:10 PM<BR><B>To:</B> =
[log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B>=20
Re: [TN] conductive blind via plug<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Don, Russ, Rush</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The application is a blind via under =
BGA pad. The=20
process sequence is:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Lase via</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>electroless</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>full panel electroplate</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>CB100(lase vias only)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>flash electroplate</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>drill</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>electroless</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>image </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>pattern plate</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>strip/etch</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks for the input.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Tony Steinke</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> TechNet=20
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<B>On Behalf Of </B>tony =
steinke<BR><B>Sent:</B>=20
Wednesday, May 29, 2002 11:33 AM<BR><B>To:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A><BR><B>Subject:</B> =
[TN]=20
conductive blind via plug<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Techies,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>We have done some initial testing on =
the =20
DuPont CB100 conductive </FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>via plug =
with blind via=20
application and so far have been unsuccessful. The blind via is =
approximately=20
.016 diameter and .030 in depth. The biggest problem we are =
experiencing is=20
getting adhesion(BGA pads popping off) with </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>copper plating after the CB100 has =
been applied.=20
Is there</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>another type of conductive blind via =
plug recipe=20
on the market.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks for any comments</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Tony=20
Steinke</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 14:40:08 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
bbarr <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: bbarr <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: FPBGA Area Ratio Question
X-To: Becerra Alejandro <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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RE: [TN] FPBGA Area Ratio QuestionHi Alejandro,
Thanks for the reply. In your calculation it looks like you used the area of
the stencil aperture as the numerator. However, the formula in the IPC
document uses the area of the pad (land) as the numerator. That is how I
came up with my numbers. For example:
1. Square aperture of .013" with .005" thick stencil plate: Area of .014"
diameter pad = .000154
Area of walls =
.00026
Area ratio = .000154/.00026 = .592
2. Square aperture of .012" with .005" thick stencil plate: Area of .014"
diameter pad = .000154
Area of walls = .00024
Area ratio = .000154/.00024 = .642
Should the formula really use the aperture area instead of the pad area?
Thanks.
Bob
=======================
Robert Barr
Manufacturing Engineering
Formation, Inc.
Voice: 856-234-5020 x3035
Fax: 856-234-6679
-----Original Message-----
From: Becerra Alejandro [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 1:41 PM
To: 'TechNet E-Mail Forum.'; 'bbarr'
Subject: RE: [TN] FPBGA Area Ratio Question
Bob,
I calculate the area ratio using a 5 mil stencil and my numbers do not
agree with yours.
1. Square aperture of 0.013". Area of Aperture = 0.000169.
Area of Lateral Walls = 0.013 X
4 X 0.005 = 0.00026.
Area Ratio = 0.000169/0.00026 =
0.65.
2. Square aperture of 0.012". Area of Aperture = 0.000144.
Area of Lateral Walls = 0.012 X
4 X 0.005 = 0.00024.
Area Ratio = 0.000144/0.00024 =
0.60.
If you take into account the radiused corners the area ratio may be lower.
I calculate for the option 1 (with radiused corner of 0.003") and it was
0.68.
When you reduce the size of the apertures with the same stencil thickness
the area ratio is reduced (not increased)
Regards,
Alejandro Becerra
-----Original Message-----
From: bbarr [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 9:40 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] FPBGA Area Ratio Question
On a fine pitch BGA (.8mm pitch, 384 balls, .5mm ball diameter) I am using
a
.014" diameter land per TI's recommendation. I was thinking then of a
.013"
square stencil aperture with .003" radiused corners on a 5 mil plate. This
seemed reasonable until I did an area ratio calculation per IPC-7525. The
result was .592, which fails compared to the acceptable value of >.66. The
aspect ratio is a solid 2.6, although IPC says I should not consider
aspect
ratio in this case, only area ratio. If I reduce down to a .012" square
aperture I can get to an area ratio of .642. Still fails, but close. But,
reducing the aperture 2 mils compared to the pad seems extreme and
violates
the recommendation in para. 3.2.2.4. So my question is, what do you guys
and
gals use for an aperture design on a component like this? Do you go by the
IPC guidelines?
Thanks.
Bob
=======================
Robert Barr
Manufacturing Engineering
Formation, Inc.
Voice: 856-234-5020 x3035
Fax: 856-234-6679
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>RE: [TN] FPBGA Area Ratio Question</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2716.2200" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750145917-29052002><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2>Hi=20
Alejandro,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750145917-29052002><FONT face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750145917-29052002><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2>Thanks for=20
the reply. In your calculation it looks like you used the area of the =
stencil=20
aperture as the numerator. However, the formula in the IPC document uses =
the=20
area of the pad (land) as the numerator. That is how I came up with =
my=20
numbers. For example:</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750145917-29052002><FONT face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750145917-29052002><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2>1. Square=20
aperture of .013" with .005" thick stencil plate: Area of .014" diameter =
pad =3D=20
.000154</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750145917-29052002><FONT face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D2> &nbs=
p;  =
; =
&=
nbsp; Ar=
ea=20
of walls =3D .00026</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN=20
class=3D750145917-29052002> &nbs=
p;  =
; =
&=
nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nb=
sp; &nbs=
p;  =
; =
&=
nbsp; =20
<FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Area ratio =3D .000154/.00026 =3D=20
.592</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750145917-29052002><FONT face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750145917-29052002><FONT face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D2>2. Square aperture of .012" with .005" thick stencil =
plate: Area of=20
.014" diameter pad =3D .000154</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN=20
class=3D750145917-29052002> &nbs=
p;  =
; =
&=
nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nb=
sp; &nbs=
p;  =
; =
=20
<FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Area of walls =3D =
.00024</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN=20
class=3D750145917-29052002> &nbs=
p;  =
; =
&=
nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nb=
sp; &nbs=
p;  =
; =
&=
nbsp; =20
<FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Area ratio =3D .000154/.00024 =3D=20
.642</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750145917-29052002><FONT face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750145917-29052002><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2>Should the=20
formula really use the aperture area instead of the pad=20
area?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750145917-29052002><FONT face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D2>Thanks.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Bo<SPAN=20
class=3D750145917-29052002>b</SPAN><BR><BR>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR>Robert=20
Barr<BR>Manufacturing Engineering<BR>Formation, Inc.<BR>Voice: =
856-234-5020=20
x3035<BR>Fax: 856-234-6679 </FONT></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Becerra Alejandro=20
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, May 29, 2002 1:41 =
PM<BR><B>To:</B> 'TechNet E-Mail Forum.'; 'bbarr'<BR><B>Subject:</B> =
RE: [TN]=20
FPBGA Area Ratio Question<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Bob,</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>I calculate the area =
ratio using=20
a 5 mil stencil and my numbers do not agree with yours.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>1. Square aperture of 0.013". Area of Aperture =3D =
0.000169.=20
</FONT><BR> =20
=20
=20
=20
<FONT size=3D2>Area of =
Lateral Walls=20
=3D 0.013 X 4 X 0.005 =3D 0.00026.</FONT>=20
<BR> =20
=20
=20
=20
<FONT size=3D2>Area Ratio =
=3D=20
0.000169/0.00026 =3D 0.65.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>2. Square aperture of 0.012". Area of Aperture =3D =
0.000144.=20
</FONT><BR> =20
=20
=20
=20
<FONT size=3D2>Area of =
Lateral Walls=20
=3D 0.012 X 4 X 0.005 =3D 0.00024.</FONT>=20
<BR> =20
=20
=20
=20
<FONT size=3D2>Area Ratio =
=3D=20
0.000144/0.00024 =3D 0.60.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>If you take into account the radiused corners the =
area ratio=20
may be lower.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>I calculate for the option 1 =
(with=20
radiused corner of 0.003") and it was 0.68.</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>When you=20
reduce the size of the apertures with the same stencil thickness the =
area=20
ratio is reduced (not increased)</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Regards,</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Alejandro Becerra</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>-----Original Message-----</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>From: bbarr=20
[<A =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]</A>]</FONT=
>=20
<BR><FONT size=3D2>Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 9:40 AM</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>To: [log in to unmask]</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>Subject: [TN] =
FPBGA Area=20
Ratio Question</FONT> </P><BR>
<P><FONT size=3D2>On a fine pitch BGA (.8mm pitch, 384 balls, .5mm =
ball=20
diameter) I am using a</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>.014" diameter land =
per TI's=20
recommendation. I was thinking then of a .013"</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>square=20
stencil aperture with .003" radiused corners on a 5 mil plate. =
This</FONT>=20
<BR><FONT size=3D2>seemed reasonable until I did an area ratio =
calculation per=20
IPC-7525. The</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>result was .592, which fails =
compared to=20
the acceptable value of >.66. The</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>aspect =
ratio is a=20
solid 2.6, although IPC says I should not consider aspect</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>ratio in this case, only area ratio. If I reduce down to a =
.012"=20
square</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>aperture I can get to an area ratio =
of .642.=20
Still fails, but close. But,</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>reducing the =
aperture 2=20
mils compared to the pad seems extreme and violates</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>the recommendation in para. 3.2.2.4. So my question is, what =
do you=20
guys and</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>gals use for an aperture design on =
a=20
component like this? Do you go by the</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>IPC=20
guidelines?</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Thanks.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Bob</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT =
size=3D2>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>Robert=20
Barr</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>Manufacturing Engineering</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>Formation, Inc.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>Voice: 856-234-5020 =
x3035</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>Fax: 856-234-6679</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT=20
=
size=3D2>----------------------------------------------------------------=
-----------------</FONT>=20
<BR><FONT size=3D2>Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC =
using=20
LISTSERV 1.8d</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>To unsubscribe, send a message =
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<BR><FONT=20
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href=3D"http://listserv.ipc.org/archives"=20
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=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 15:18:23 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Alain Savard <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Alain Savard <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: conductive blind via plug
X-To: tony steinke <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
How do you reliably reach the 30 mils depth with a laser? or are you using
something else than inches in your statement?
Alain
-----Original Message-----
From: tony steinke [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: May 29, 2002 4:10 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] conductive blind via plug
Don, Russ, Rush
The application is a blind via under BGA pad. The process sequence is:
Lase via
electroless
full panel electroplate
CB100(lase vias only)
flash electroplate
drill
electroless
image
pattern plate
strip/etch
Thanks for the input.
Tony Steinke
----- Original Message -----
From: Don <mailto:[log in to unmask]> Vischulis
To: tony <mailto:[log in to unmask]> steinke
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 9:49 AM
Subject: RE: [TN] conductive blind via plug
Tony,
Please supply process details. The manufacturing sequence may be part of
the root problem.
Don Vischulis
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of tony steinke
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 11:33 AM
To: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: [TN] conductive blind via plug
Techies,
We have done some initial testing on the DuPont CB100 conductive via plug
with blind via application and so far have been unsuccessful. The blind via
is approximately .016 diameter and .030 in depth. The biggest problem we are
experiencing is getting adhesion(BGA pads popping off) with
copper plating after the CB100 has been applied. Is there
another type of conductive blind via plug recipe on the market.
Thanks for any comments
Tony Steinke
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Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 15:47:36 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Randy Bock Sr." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Randy Bock Sr." <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re:
X-To: "Dieselberg, Ron" <[log in to unmask]>
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Incoming AQL 2% Low - 8% high. Average around 4 4 1/2%. We are the =
end user. 2% I believe is=20
an established industry average.
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Dieselberg, Ron=20
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 1:56 PM
Subject: [TN]
One of our Quality Managers has asked me to quiz the TechNet for =
information on solder defect rates. We think we are pretty good and want =
to compare against others in the industry. He has asked for rates for =
hand soldering and also machine (automatic) soldering. We deal in two =
basic product lines; IR products and Space/Communications.
Any information regarding solder defect rates in the hand soldering =
and or automatic soldering areas would be appreciated.
Thank you.=20
Ron Dieselberg=20
Trainer/Auditor=20
CMC ELECTRONICS=20
CINCINNATI=20
[log in to unmask]
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<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Incoming AQL 2% Low - 8% high. =
Average around=20
4 4 1/2%. We are the end user. 2% I believe is =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>an established industry average.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"=20
[log in to unmask]>Dieselberg, Ron</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"=20
[log in to unmask]>[log in to unmask]</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, May 29, 2002 =
1:56=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [TN]</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>One of our Quality Managers has asked =
me to quiz=20
the TechNet for information on solder defect rates. We think we are =
pretty=20
good and want to compare against others in the industry. He has asked =
for=20
rates for hand soldering and also machine (automatic) soldering. We =
deal in=20
two basic product lines; IR products and =
Space/Communications.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Any information regarding solder defect =
rates in=20
the hand soldering and or automatic soldering areas would be=20
appreciated.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thank you.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Ron Dieselberg</FONT> <BR><FONT =
face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Trainer/Auditor</FONT> <BR><FONT =
face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D2>CMC ELECTRONICS</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D2>CINCINNATI</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D2>[log in to unmask]</FONT> =
</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 13:08:36 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Russell Burdick <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Russell Burdick <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: conductive blind via plug
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Tony, I might think that although via plug is 'conductive' a layer of
electroless copper would greatly improve the situation. Also, some folks
will simply skip the preclean and catalyst steps and proceed to the
electroless copper bath when covering the plugs(perhaps some adverse
chemical happenings with the silver and the chlorides in the catalysts).
Here is what we are doing with good success:
Drill via
deburr/electroless copper
panel electroplate flash (20asf, 20 minutes)
CB100 vias
Electroless copper,NO PERMANGANATE DESMEAR chemistry
(we used the permanganate desmear on one job and 99% of the silver via plugs
raised up to present a 'nipple' effect on the final BGA pad. I believe the
solvent swell step softened and expanded the epoxy in the via plug
material).
panel electroplate flash (20asf, 20 minutes)
drill the balance of holes
desmear/electroless
image
pattern plate
strip/etch (depending on the construction one side may have significantly
more copper because of the 2 additional panel plates).
I hope this helps, call if you would like to talk off line.
Russell Burdick
520-745-8515
>From: tony steinke <[log in to unmask]>
>Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, tony steinke
><[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: [TN] conductive blind via plug
>Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 13:09:50 -0700
>
>Don, Russ, Rush
>The application is a blind via under BGA pad. The process sequence is:
>Lase via
>electroless
>full panel electroplate
>CB100(lase vias only)
>flash electroplate
>drill
>electroless
>image
>pattern plate
>strip/etch
>Thanks for the input.
>Tony Steinke
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Don Vischulis
> To: tony steinke
> Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 9:49 AM
> Subject: RE: [TN] conductive blind via plug
>
>
> Tony,
>
> Please supply process details. The manufacturing sequence may be part
>of the root problem.
>
> Don Vischulis
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of tony steinke
> Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 11:33 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] conductive blind via plug
>
>
> Techies,
> We have done some initial testing on the DuPont CB100 conductive via
>plug with blind via application and so far have been unsuccessful. The
>blind via is approximately .016 diameter and .030 in depth. The biggest
>problem we are experiencing is getting adhesion(BGA pads popping off) with
> copper plating after the CB100 has been applied. Is there
> another type of conductive blind via plug recipe on the market.
> Thanks for any comments
> Tony Steinke
_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
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Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 15:15:20 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Mel Parrish <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Mel Parrish <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re:
X-To: "Dieselberg, Ron" <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Hi Ron,
There was an activity within the IPC termed DPMO which is a TLA for Defect
Per Million Opportunity. The original intent was to accomplish what you
asked for, comparing apples to apples. Off the top of my head I believe it
was IPC-9261.
Hope this helps,
Mel
Mel Parrish
Director of Training
Soldering Technology International
102 Tribble Drive
Madison, AL 35758
256 705 5530
256 705 5538 Fax
[log in to unmask]
www.solderingtech.com
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Dieselberg, Ron
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 12:57 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN]
One of our Quality Managers has asked me to quiz the TechNet for
information on solder defect rates. We think we are pretty good and want to
compare against others in the industry. He has asked for rates for hand
soldering and also machine (automatic) soldering. We deal in two basic
product lines; IR products and Space/Communications.
Any information regarding solder defect rates in the hand soldering and or
automatic soldering areas would be appreciated.
Thank you.
Ron Dieselberg
Trainer/Auditor
CMC ELECTRONICS
CINCINNATI
[log in to unmask]
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<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
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<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D299035519-29052002><FONT face=3DTahoma =
color=3D#000080 size=3D2>Hi=20
Ron,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D299035519-29052002><FONT face=3DTahoma =
color=3D#000080 size=3D2>There=20
was an activity within the IPC termed DPMO which is a TLA for Defect Per =
Million=20
Opportunity. The original intent was to accomplish what you asked =
for,=20
comparing apples to apples. Off the top of my head I believe it =
was=20
IPC-9261. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D299035519-29052002><FONT face=3DTahoma =
color=3D#000080=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D299035519-29052002><FONT face=3DTahoma =
color=3D#000080 size=3D2>Hope=20
this helps, </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D299035519-29052002><FONT face=3DTahoma =
color=3D#000080=20
size=3D2>Mel</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Mel Parrish<BR>Director of Training<BR>Soldering =
Technology=20
International<BR>102 Tribble Drive<BR>Madison, AL 35758<BR>256 705 =
5530<BR>256=20
705 5538 =
Fax<BR>[log in to unmask]<BR>www.solderingtech.com</FONT> </P>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> TechNet=20
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Dieselberg, =
Ron<BR><B>Sent:</B>=20
Wednesday, May 29, 2002 12:57 PM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
[log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> [TN]<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>One of our Quality Managers has asked =
me to quiz=20
the TechNet for information on solder defect rates. We think we are =
pretty=20
good and want to compare against others in the industry. He has asked =
for=20
rates for hand soldering and also machine (automatic) soldering. We =
deal in=20
two basic product lines; IR products and =
Space/Communications.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Any information regarding solder defect =
rates in=20
the hand soldering and or automatic soldering areas would be=20
appreciated.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thank you.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Ron Dieselberg</FONT> <BR><FONT =
face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Trainer/Auditor</FONT> <BR><FONT =
face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D2>CMC ELECTRONICS</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D2>CINCINNATI</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D2>[log in to unmask]</FONT> =
</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 15:14:44 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: conductive blind via plug
X-To: [log in to unmask]
This is what I'm getting from some shops. Also, "mush" created by
permanganate with "dimple" effect. Some folks also don't have good control
of electroless deposition subsequently not allowing full cap coverage.
MoonMan
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Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 16:26:09 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Mark Hargreaves <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Mark Hargreaves <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: bare board serialization
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Hi All,
I'm looking for a way to serialize bare boards & panel coupons to provide
traceability for IPC 6012 jobs. Can anyone suggest a tool & ink type?
Thanks,
Mark Hargreaves
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Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 17:00:33 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Dave Pahlas <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Dave Pahlas <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: FPBGA Area Ratio Question
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The stencil aperture area should be used to calculate this since the ratio
is used to ensure proper solder paste release from the stencil. Remember
that the contact area between the paste and the board is what "pulls" the
paste out of the stencil, and this contact area is usually equal to the size
of the aperture.
Regards,
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: bbarr [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 12:40 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] FPBGA Area Ratio Question
Hi Alejandro,
Thanks for the reply. In your calculation it looks like you used the area of
the stencil aperture as the numerator. However, the formula in the IPC
document uses the area of the pad (land) as the numerator. That is how I
came up with my numbers. For example:
1. Square aperture of .013" with .005" thick stencil plate: Area of .014"
diameter pad = .000154
Area of walls =
.00026
Area ratio = .000154/.00026 = .592
2. Square aperture of .012" with .005" thick stencil plate: Area of .014"
diameter pad = .000154
Area of walls = .00024
Area ratio = .000154/.00024 = .642
Should the formula really use the aperture area instead of the pad area?
Thanks.
Bob
=======================
Robert Barr
Manufacturing Engineering
Formation, Inc.
Voice: 856-234-5020 x3035
Fax: 856-234-6679
-----Original Message-----
From: Becerra Alejandro [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 1:41 PM
To: 'TechNet E-Mail Forum.'; 'bbarr'
Subject: RE: [TN] FPBGA Area Ratio Question
Bob,
I calculate the area ratio using a 5 mil stencil and my numbers do not agree
with yours.
1. Square aperture of 0.013". Area of Aperture = 0.000169.
Area of Lateral Walls = 0.013 X 4
X 0.005 = 0.00026.
Area Ratio = 0.000169/0.00026 =
0.65.
2. Square aperture of 0.012". Area of Aperture = 0.000144.
Area of Lateral Walls = 0.012 X 4
X 0.005 = 0.00024.
Area Ratio = 0.000144/0.00024 =
0.60.
If you take into account the radiused corners the area ratio may be lower.
I calculate for the option 1 (with radiused corner of 0.003") and it was
0.68.
When you reduce the size of the apertures with the same stencil thickness
the area ratio is reduced (not increased)
Regards,
Alejandro Becerra
-----Original Message-----
From: bbarr [ mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> ]
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 9:40 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] FPBGA Area Ratio Question
On a fine pitch BGA (.8mm pitch, 384 balls, .5mm ball diameter) I am using a
.014" diameter land per TI's recommendation. I was thinking then of a .013"
square stencil aperture with .003" radiused corners on a 5 mil plate. This
seemed reasonable until I did an area ratio calculation per IPC-7525. The
result was .592, which fails compared to the acceptable value of >.66. The
aspect ratio is a solid 2.6, although IPC says I should not consider aspect
ratio in this case, only area ratio. If I reduce down to a .012" square
aperture I can get to an area ratio of .642. Still fails, but close. But,
reducing the aperture 2 mils compared to the pad seems extreme and violates
the recommendation in para. 3.2.2.4. So my question is, what do you guys and
gals use for an aperture design on a component like this? Do you go by the
IPC guidelines?
Thanks.
Bob
=======================
Robert Barr
Manufacturing Engineering
Formation, Inc.
Voice: 856-234-5020 x3035
Fax: 856-234-6679
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charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<TITLE>RE: [TN] FPBGA Area Ratio Question</TITLE>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4522.1800" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D834295220-29052002>The=20
stencil aperture area should be used to calculate this since the ratio=20
is used to ensure proper solder paste release from the stencil.=20
</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D834295220-29052002>Remember that the contact area between the =
paste and=20
the board is what "pulls" the paste out of the stencil, and this =
contact area is=20
usually equal to the size of the aperture.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D834295220-29052002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D834295220-29052002>Regards,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D834295220-29052002>Dave</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> bbarr=20
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, May 29, 2002 =
12:40=20
PM<BR><B>To:</B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [TN] FPBGA =
Area Ratio=20
Question<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750145917-29052002><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2>Hi=20
Alejandro,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750145917-29052002><FONT face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750145917-29052002><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2>Thanks for=20
the reply. In your calculation it looks like you used the area of the =
stencil=20
aperture as the numerator. However, the formula in the IPC document =
uses the=20
area of the pad (land) as the numerator. That is how I came up =
with my=20
numbers. For example:</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750145917-29052002><FONT face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750145917-29052002><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2>1. Square=20
aperture of .013" with .005" thick stencil plate: Area of .014" =
diameter pad =3D=20
.000154</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750145917-29052002><FONT face=3D"Courier New"=20
=
size=3D2> &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp;Area=20
of walls =3D .00026</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN=20
=
class=3D750145917-29052002> &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; =20
<FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Area ratio =3D .000154/.00026 =3D =
.592</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750145917-29052002><FONT face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750145917-29052002><FONT face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D2>2. Square aperture of .012" with .005" thick stencil =
plate: Area=20
of .014" diameter pad =3D .000154</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN=20
=
class=3D750145917-29052002> &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; =20
<FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Area of walls =3D =
.00024</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN=20
=
class=3D750145917-29052002> &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; =20
<FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Area ratio =3D .000154/.00024 =3D =
.642</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750145917-29052002><FONT face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750145917-29052002><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2>Should the=20
formula really use the aperture area instead of the pad=20
area?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750145917-29052002><FONT face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D2>Thanks.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Bo<SPAN=20
=
class=3D750145917-29052002>b</SPAN><BR><BR>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR>Robert=20
Barr<BR>Manufacturing Engineering<BR>Formation, Inc.<BR>Voice: =
856-234-5020=20
x3035<BR>Fax: 856-234-6679 </FONT></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Becerra =
Alejandro=20
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, May 29, 2002 =
1:41=20
PM<BR><B>To:</B> 'TechNet E-Mail Forum.'; =
'bbarr'<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE:=20
[TN] FPBGA Area Ratio Question<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Bob,</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>I calculate the =
area ratio=20
using a 5 mil stencil and my numbers do not agree with =
yours.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>1. Square aperture of 0.013". Area of Aperture =
=3D 0.000169.=20
</FONT><BR> =20
=20
=20
=20
<FONT size=3D2>Area of =
Lateral=20
Walls =3D 0.013 X 4 X 0.005 =3D 0.00026.</FONT>=20
<BR> =20
=20
=20
=20
<FONT size=3D2>Area =
Ratio =3D=20
0.000169/0.00026 =3D 0.65.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>2. Square aperture of 0.012". Area of Aperture =
=3D 0.000144.=20
</FONT><BR> =20
=20
=20
=20
<FONT size=3D2>Area of =
Lateral=20
Walls =3D 0.012 X 4 X 0.005 =3D 0.00024.</FONT>=20
<BR> =20
=20
=20
=20
<FONT size=3D2>Area =
Ratio =3D=20
0.000144/0.00024 =3D 0.60.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>If you take into account the radiused corners the =
area ratio=20
may be lower.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>I calculate for the option =
1 (with=20
radiused corner of 0.003") and it was 0.68.</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>When you=20
reduce the size of the apertures with the same stencil thickness =
the area=20
ratio is reduced (not increased)</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Regards,</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Alejandro Becerra</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2></FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>-----Original Message-----</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>From:=20
bbarr [<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]</A>]</FON=
T>=20
<BR><FONT size=3D2>Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 9:40 AM</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>To: [log in to unmask]</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>Subject: =
[TN] FPBGA Area=20
Ratio Question</FONT> </P><BR>
<P><FONT size=3D2>On a fine pitch BGA (.8mm pitch, 384 balls, .5mm =
ball=20
diameter) I am using a</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>.014" diameter =
land per TI's=20
recommendation. I was thinking then of a .013"</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>square stencil aperture with .003" radiused corners on a 5 =
mil plate.=20
This</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>seemed reasonable until I did an =
area ratio=20
calculation per IPC-7525. The</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>result was =
.592, which=20
fails compared to the acceptable value of >.66. The</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>aspect ratio is a solid 2.6, although IPC says I should =
not consider=20
aspect</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>ratio in this case, only area =
ratio. If I=20
reduce down to a .012" square</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>aperture I =
can get to=20
an area ratio of .642. Still fails, but close. But,</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>reducing the aperture 2 mils compared to the pad seems =
extreme and=20
violates</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>the recommendation in para. =
3.2.2.4. So my=20
question is, what do you guys and</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>gals =
use for an=20
aperture design on a component like this? Do you go by the</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>IPC guidelines?</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Thanks.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Bob</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT =
size=3D2>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>Robert=20
Barr</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>Manufacturing Engineering</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>Formation, Inc.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>Voice: =
856-234-5020=20
x3035</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>Fax: 856-234-6679</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT=20
=
size=3D2>---------------------------------------------------------------=
------------------</FONT>=20
<BR><FONT size=3D2>Technet Mail List provided as a free service by =
IPC using=20
LISTSERV 1.8d</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>To unsubscribe, send a =
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size=3D2>the BODY=20
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es</A></FONT>=20
<BR><FONT size=3D2>Please visit IPC web site <A target=3D_blank=20
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href=3D"http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm">http://www.ipc.org/html/forum=
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for additional</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>information, or contact =
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=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 16:01:13 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Becerra Alejandro <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Becerra Alejandro <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: FPBGA Area Ratio Question
X-To: bbarr <[log in to unmask]>
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As far as I know, the calculation is using the aperture area and not the pad
area, because the area ratio is a calculation for the stencil that
affects the paste release.
Alejandro
-----Original Message-----
From: bbarr [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 12:40 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] FPBGA Area Ratio Question
Hi Alejandro,
Thanks for the reply. In your calculation it looks like you used the area of
the stencil aperture as the numerator. However, the formula in the IPC
document uses the area of the pad (land) as the numerator. That is how I
came up with my numbers. For example:
1. Square aperture of .013" with .005" thick stencil plate: Area of .014"
diameter pad = .000154
Area of walls =
.00026
Area ratio = .000154/.00026 = .592
2. Square aperture of .012" with .005" thick stencil plate: Area of .014"
diameter pad = .000154
Area of walls = .00024
Area ratio = .000154/.00024 = .642
Should the formula really use the aperture area instead of the pad area?
Thanks.
Bob
=======================
Robert Barr
Manufacturing Engineering
Formation, Inc.
Voice: 856-234-5020 x3035
Fax: 856-234-6679
-----Original Message-----
From: Becerra Alejandro [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 1:41 PM
To: 'TechNet E-Mail Forum.'; 'bbarr'
Subject: RE: [TN] FPBGA Area Ratio Question
Bob,
I calculate the area ratio using a 5 mil stencil and my numbers do not agree
with yours.
1. Square aperture of 0.013". Area of Aperture = 0.000169.
Area of Lateral Walls = 0.013 X 4
X 0.005 = 0.00026.
Area Ratio = 0.000169/0.00026 =
0.65.
2. Square aperture of 0.012". Area of Aperture = 0.000144.
Area of Lateral Walls = 0.012 X 4
X 0.005 = 0.00024.
Area Ratio = 0.000144/0.00024 =
0.60.
If you take into account the radiused corners the area ratio may be lower.
I calculate for the option 1 (with radiused corner of 0.003") and it was
0.68.
When you reduce the size of the apertures with the same stencil thickness
the area ratio is reduced (not increased)
Regards,
Alejandro Becerra
-----Original Message-----
From: bbarr [ mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> ]
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 9:40 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] FPBGA Area Ratio Question
On a fine pitch BGA (.8mm pitch, 384 balls, .5mm ball diameter) I am using a
.014" diameter land per TI's recommendation. I was thinking then of a .013"
square stencil aperture with .003" radiused corners on a 5 mil plate. This
seemed reasonable until I did an area ratio calculation per IPC-7525. The
result was .592, which fails compared to the acceptable value of >.66. The
aspect ratio is a solid 2.6, although IPC says I should not consider aspect
ratio in this case, only area ratio. If I reduce down to a .012" square
aperture I can get to an area ratio of .642. Still fails, but close. But,
reducing the aperture 2 mils compared to the pad seems extreme and violates
the recommendation in para. 3.2.2.4. So my question is, what do you guys and
gals use for an aperture design on a component like this? Do you go by the
IPC guidelines?
Thanks.
Bob
=======================
Robert Barr
Manufacturing Engineering
Formation, Inc.
Voice: 856-234-5020 x3035
Fax: 856-234-6679
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<TITLE>RE: [TN] FPBGA Area Ratio Question</TITLE>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4522.1800" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D802570421-29052002><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>As far=20
as I know, the calculation is using the aperture area and not the pad =
area,=20
because the area ratio is a calculation for the stencil =
that</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D802570421-29052002><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>affects the paste release.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D802570421-29052002><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D802570421-29052002><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>Alejandro</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> bbarr=20
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, May 29, 2002 =
12:40=20
PM<BR><B>To:</B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [TN] FPBGA Area =
Ratio=20
Question<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750145917-29052002><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2>Hi=20
Alejandro,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750145917-29052002><FONT face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750145917-29052002><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2>Thanks for=20
the reply. In your calculation it looks like you used the area of the =
stencil=20
aperture as the numerator. However, the formula in the IPC document =
uses the=20
area of the pad (land) as the numerator. That is how I came up =
with my=20
numbers. For example:</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750145917-29052002><FONT face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750145917-29052002><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2>1. Square=20
aperture of .013" with .005" thick stencil plate: Area of .014" =
diameter pad =3D=20
.000154</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750145917-29052002><FONT face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D2> &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp;Area=20
of walls =3D .00026</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN=20
class=3D750145917-29052002> &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; =20
<FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Area ratio =3D .000154/.00026 =3D=20
.592</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750145917-29052002><FONT face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750145917-29052002><FONT face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D2>2. Square aperture of .012" with .005" thick stencil =
plate: Area of=20
.014" diameter pad =3D .000154</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN=20
class=3D750145917-29052002> &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; =20
<FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Area of walls =3D =
.00024</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN=20
class=3D750145917-29052002> &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; &nb=
sp; =20
<FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Area ratio =3D .000154/.00024 =3D=20
.642</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750145917-29052002><FONT face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750145917-29052002><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2>Should the=20
formula really use the aperture area instead of the pad=20
area?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750145917-29052002><FONT face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D2>Thanks.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Bo<SPAN=20
class=3D750145917-29052002>b</SPAN><BR><BR>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR>Robert=20
Barr<BR>Manufacturing Engineering<BR>Formation, Inc.<BR>Voice: =
856-234-5020=20
x3035<BR>Fax: 856-234-6679 </FONT></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Becerra Alejandro =
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, May 29, 2002 =
1:41=20
PM<BR><B>To:</B> 'TechNet E-Mail Forum.'; 'bbarr'<BR><B>Subject:</B> =
RE: [TN]=20
FPBGA Area Ratio Question<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Bob,</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>I calculate the area =
ratio using=20
a 5 mil stencil and my numbers do not agree with yours.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>1. Square aperture of 0.013". Area of Aperture =3D =
0.000169.=20
</FONT><BR> =20
=20
=20
=20
<FONT size=3D2>Area of =
Lateral Walls=20
=3D 0.013 X 4 X 0.005 =3D 0.00026.</FONT>=20
<BR> =20
=20
=20
=20
<FONT size=3D2>Area Ratio =
=3D=20
0.000169/0.00026 =3D 0.65.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>2. Square aperture of 0.012". Area of Aperture =3D =
0.000144.=20
</FONT><BR> =20
=20
=20
=20
<FONT size=3D2>Area of =
Lateral Walls=20
=3D 0.012 X 4 X 0.005 =3D 0.00024.</FONT>=20
<BR> =20
=20
=20
=20
<FONT size=3D2>Area Ratio =
=3D=20
0.000144/0.00024 =3D 0.60.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>If you take into account the radiused corners the =
area ratio=20
may be lower.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>I calculate for the option 1 =
(with=20
radiused corner of 0.003") and it was 0.68.</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>When you=20
reduce the size of the apertures with the same stencil thickness the =
area=20
ratio is reduced (not increased)</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Regards,</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Alejandro Becerra</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2></FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>-----Original Message-----</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>From: bbarr=20
[<A =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]</A>]</FON=
T>=20
<BR><FONT size=3D2>Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 9:40 AM</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>To: [log in to unmask]</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>Subject: [TN] =
FPBGA Area=20
Ratio Question</FONT> </P><BR>
<P><FONT size=3D2>On a fine pitch BGA (.8mm pitch, 384 balls, .5mm =
ball=20
diameter) I am using a</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>.014" diameter land =
per TI's=20
recommendation. I was thinking then of a .013"</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>square=20
stencil aperture with .003" radiused corners on a 5 mil plate. =
This</FONT>=20
<BR><FONT size=3D2>seemed reasonable until I did an area ratio =
calculation per=20
IPC-7525. The</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>result was .592, which fails =
compared to=20
the acceptable value of >.66. The</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>aspect =
ratio is a=20
solid 2.6, although IPC says I should not consider aspect</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>ratio in this case, only area ratio. If I reduce down to a =
.012"=20
square</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>aperture I can get to an area ratio =
of .642.=20
Still fails, but close. But,</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>reducing the =
aperture 2=20
mils compared to the pad seems extreme and violates</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>the recommendation in para. 3.2.2.4. So my question is, what =
do you=20
guys and</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>gals use for an aperture design on =
a=20
component like this? Do you go by the</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>IPC=20
guidelines?</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Thanks.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Bob</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT =
size=3D2>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>Robert=20
Barr</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>Manufacturing Engineering</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>Formation, Inc.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>Voice: =
856-234-5020=20
x3035</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>Fax: 856-234-6679</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT=20
=
size=3D2>---------------------------------------------------------------=
------------------</FONT>=20
<BR><FONT size=3D2>Technet Mail List provided as a free service by =
IPC using=20
LISTSERV 1.8d</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>To unsubscribe, send a =
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Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 16:28:44 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Jack Crawford <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Jack Crawford <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: DPMO benchmarking
X-cc: Jeff Morton <[log in to unmask]>,
Lisa Griffin <[log in to unmask]>
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IPC-7912 for end-item DPMO is about two years old now; IPC-9261 for =
in-process DPMO was published several months ago.
The IPC DPMO 5-22g committee met two weeks ago and has generated a =
revision to 7912 that will be balloted in about a month; need to go =
through a public announcement of the proposed standard first. No changes =
in formulas but the examples were clarified and document layout changed =
for ease of use.
We (IPC) frequently get requests for "typical" DPMO numbers so users can =
assess themselves against industry. It's been a challenge to get anyone to =
offer up numbers so we can build a benchmark. It's considered proprietary =
info and companies seem to be concerned that their numbers will be used =
against them by competitors. We're exploring ways to do this in the blind, =
perhaps through our TMRC or EMS Council. In the meantime, Bob Willis and =
the SMART Group in the UK have already started gathering numbers. SMART =
keeps referring to it as PPM but references 7912; Bob will have to tell us =
if it's truly DPMO as defined by 7912 so we'll know if their numbers are =
apples to apples.
If we can set up a program that satisfies company confidentiality concerns =
and you'd like to participate, please reply to me off-line (it helps with =
the privacy stuff you know) [log in to unmask]
Cordially
Jack
>>> [log in to unmask] 05/29/02 03:15PM >>>
Hi Ron,
There was an activity within the IPC termed DPMO which is a TLA for Defect
Per Million Opportunity. The original intent was to accomplish what you
asked for, comparing apples to apples. Off the top of my head I believe =
it
was IPC-9261.
Hope this helps,
Mel
Mel Parrish
Director of Training
Soldering Technology International
102 Tribble Drive
Madison, AL 35758
256 705 5530
256 705 5538 Fax
[log in to unmask]
www.solderingtech.com=20
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Dieselberg, Ron
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 12:57 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN]
One of our Quality Managers has asked me to quiz the TechNet for
information on solder defect rates. We think we are pretty good and want =
to
compare against others in the industry. He has asked for rates for hand
soldering and also machine (automatic) soldering. We deal in two basic
product lines; IR products and Space/Communications.
Any information regarding solder defect rates in the hand soldering and =
or
automatic soldering areas would be appreciated.
Thank you.
Ron Dieselberg
Trainer/Auditor
CMC ELECTRONICS
CINCINNATI
[log in to unmask]
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Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 17:44:07 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
bbarr <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: bbarr <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: FPBGA Area Ratio Question
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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RE: [TN] FPBGA Area Ratio QuestionIPC folks, can you jump in on this one? Is
the formula for area ratio correct in IPC-7525?? Should the numerator be
"area of pad" or "area of aperture"?
Thanks.
Bob
=======================
Robert Barr
Manufacturing Engineering
Formation, Inc.
Voice: 856-234-5020 x3035
Fax: 856-234-6679
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Becerra Alejandro
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 5:01 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] FPBGA Area Ratio Question
As far as I know, the calculation is using the aperture area and not the
pad area, because the area ratio is a calculation for the stencil that
affects the paste release.
Alejandro
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>RE: [TN] FPBGA Area Ratio Question</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2716.2200" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D370414121-29052002>IPC folks,=20
can you jump in on this one? Is the formula for area ratio correct in =
IPC-7525??=20
Should the numerator be "area of pad" or "area of =
aperture"?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D370414121-29052002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D370414121-29052002>Thanks.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<P><FONT =
size=3D2>Bob<BR><BR>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR>Robert=20
Barr<BR>Manufacturing Engineering<BR>Formation, Inc.<BR>Voice: =
856-234-5020=20
x3035<BR>Fax: 856-234-6679 </FONT></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> TechNet=20
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Becerra =
Alejandro<BR><B>Sent:</B>=20
Wednesday, May 29, 2002 5:01 PM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
[log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [TN] FPBGA Area Ratio=20
Question<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D802570421-29052002><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>As=20
far as I know, the calculation is using the aperture area and not the =
pad=20
area, because the area ratio is a calculation for the stencil=20
that</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D802570421-29052002><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>affects the paste release.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D802570421-29052002><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D802570421-29052002><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>Alejandro</FONT></SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 15:16:38 -0700
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Ahne Oosterhof <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: FPBGA Area Ratio Question
X-To: bbarr <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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STENCIL THICKNESS:
After the squeegee has filled the apertures in the stencil, it gets lifted
up and 'hopefully' all the paste leaves the apertures and stays on the pads
of the board. The battle is between the forces of the 'suction' by the pad
and the friction along the side walls of the aperture on the solder brick.
Experiments have shown that for a typical laser-cut stencil the bottom area
of the aperture has to be greater than 0.7 of the wall area.
After applying a little geometry and math a simple rule of thumb can be
derived:
for round and square apertures the diameter (or width) has to be greater
than 2.5 times the stencil thickness;
for rectangles, where the length is several times the width, the width has
to be greater than 1.5 times the stencil thickness.
The above means that for your 5 mil stencil a square aperture should be at
least 12.5 mil wide. So you are working with apertures that are close to the
'rule of thumb'. Given a good laser-cut stencil it is likely that you will
be successful. But a stencil with questionably cut apertures may give you
some trouble. To make life easier, go to larger apertures. You are not yet
close to the other rule-of-thumb that says make the apertures not wider than
50% of the pitch. This means anything under 16 mil is ok, but with BGA-s you
may want to go a little smaller anyway.
To give yourself a little wider process window (fewer print errors) you can
choose a finer mesh solder paste.
Have fun,
Ahne.
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of bbarr
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 08:40
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] FPBGA Area Ratio Question
On a fine pitch BGA (.8mm pitch, 384 balls, .5mm ball diameter) I am using a
.014" diameter land per TI's recommendation. I was thinking then of a .013"
square stencil aperture with .003" radiused corners on a 5 mil plate. This
seemed reasonable until I did an area ratio calculation per IPC-7525. The
result was .592, which fails compared to the acceptable value of >.66. The
aspect ratio is a solid 2.6, although IPC says I should not consider aspect
ratio in this case, only area ratio. If I reduce down to a .012" square
aperture I can get to an area ratio of .642. Still fails, but close. But,
reducing the aperture 2 mils compared to the pad seems extreme and violates
the recommendation in para. 3.2.2.4. So my question is, what do you guys and
gals use for an aperture design on a component like this? Do you go by the
IPC guidelines?
Thanks.
Bob
=======================
Robert Barr
Manufacturing Engineering
Formation, Inc.
Voice: 856-234-5020 x3035
Fax: 856-234-6679
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Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 15:39:48 -0700
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Ahne Oosterhof <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: FPBGA Area Ratio Question
X-To: bbarr <[log in to unmask]>
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RE: [TN] FPBGA Area Ratio QuestionHi Bob,
Sharp eye, you followed the rule in the document. Too bad it is wrong (just
imagine the pad to be as large as the board). The error has now been
reported to the IPC. (copied to you.)
Thanks,
Ahne.
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of bbarr
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 11:40
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] FPBGA Area Ratio Question
Hi Alejandro,
Thanks for the reply. In your calculation it looks like you used the area
of the stencil aperture as the numerator. However, the formula in the IPC
document uses the area of the pad (land) as the numerator. That is how I
came up with my numbers. For example:
1. Square aperture of .013" with .005" thick stencil plate: Area of .014"
diameter pad = .000154
Area of walls =
.00026
Area ratio = .000154/.00026 = .592
2. Square aperture of .012" with .005" thick stencil plate: Area of .014"
diameter pad = .000154
Area of walls = .00024
Area ratio = .000154/.00024 = .642
Should the formula really use the aperture area instead of the pad area?
Thanks.
Bob
=======================
Robert Barr
Manufacturing Engineering
Formation, Inc.
Voice: 856-234-5020 x3035
Fax: 856-234-6679
-----Original Message-----
From: Becerra Alejandro [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 1:41 PM
To: 'TechNet E-Mail Forum.'; 'bbarr'
Subject: RE: [TN] FPBGA Area Ratio Question
Bob,
I calculate the area ratio using a 5 mil stencil and my numbers do not
agree with yours.
1. Square aperture of 0.013". Area of Aperture = 0.000169.
Area of Lateral Walls = 0.013
X 4 X 0.005 = 0.00026.
Area Ratio = 0.000169/0.00026 =
0.65.
2. Square aperture of 0.012". Area of Aperture = 0.000144.
Area of Lateral Walls = 0.012
X 4 X 0.005 = 0.00024.
Area Ratio = 0.000144/0.00024 =
0.60.
If you take into account the radiused corners the area ratio may be
lower.
I calculate for the option 1 (with radiused corner of 0.003") and it was
0.68.
When you reduce the size of the apertures with the same stencil
thickness the area ratio is reduced (not increased)
Regards,
Alejandro Becerra
-----Original Message-----
From: bbarr [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 9:40 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] FPBGA Area Ratio Question
On a fine pitch BGA (.8mm pitch, 384 balls, .5mm ball diameter) I am
using a
.014" diameter land per TI's recommendation. I was thinking then of a
.013"
square stencil aperture with .003" radiused corners on a 5 mil plate.
This
seemed reasonable until I did an area ratio calculation per IPC-7525.
The
result was .592, which fails compared to the acceptable value of >.66.
The
aspect ratio is a solid 2.6, although IPC says I should not consider
aspect
ratio in this case, only area ratio. If I reduce down to a .012" square
aperture I can get to an area ratio of .642. Still fails, but close.
But,
reducing the aperture 2 mils compared to the pad seems extreme and
violates
the recommendation in para. 3.2.2.4. So my question is, what do you guys
and
gals use for an aperture design on a component like this? Do you go by
the
IPC guidelines?
Thanks.
Bob
=======================
Robert Barr
Manufacturing Engineering
Formation, Inc.
Voice: 856-234-5020 x3035
Fax: 856-234-6679
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<DIV><SPAN class=3D687113022-29052002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Hi=20
Bob,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D687113022-29052002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D687113022-29052002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Sharp=20
eye, you followed the rule in the document. Too bad it is wrong (just =
imagine=20
the pad to be as large as the board). The error has now been reported to =
the=20
IPC. (copied to you.)</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D687113022-29052002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D687113022-29052002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Thanks,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D687113022-29052002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D687113022-29052002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Ahne.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> TechNet=20
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<B>On Behalf Of</B> bbarr<BR><B>Sent:</B> =
Wednesday,=20
May 29, 2002 11:40<BR><B>To:</B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> =
Re: [TN]=20
FPBGA Area Ratio Question<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750145917-29052002><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2>Hi=20
Alejandro,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750145917-29052002><FONT face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750145917-29052002><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2>Thanks for=20
the reply. In your calculation it looks like you used the area of the =
stencil=20
aperture as the numerator. However, the formula in the IPC document =
uses the=20
area of the pad (land) as the numerator. That is how I came up =
with my=20
numbers. For example:</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750145917-29052002><FONT face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750145917-29052002><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2>1. Square=20
aperture of .013" with .005" thick stencil plate: Area of .014" =
diameter pad =3D=20
.000154</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750145917-29052002><FONT face=3D"Courier New"=20
=
size=3D2> &nbs=
p;  =
; =
&=
nbsp; Ar=
ea=20
of walls =3D .00026</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN=20
=
class=3D750145917-29052002> &nbs=
p;  =
; =
&=
nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nb=
sp; &nbs=
p;  =
; =
&=
nbsp; =20
<FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Area ratio =3D .000154/.00026 =3D=20
.592</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750145917-29052002><FONT face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750145917-29052002><FONT face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D2>2. Square aperture of .012" with .005" thick stencil =
plate: Area=20
of .014" diameter pad =3D .000154</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN=20
=
class=3D750145917-29052002> &nbs=
p;  =
; =
&=
nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nb=
sp; &nbs=
p;  =
; =
=20
<FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Area of walls =3D =
.00024</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN=20
=
class=3D750145917-29052002> &nbs=
p;  =
; =
&=
nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nb=
sp; &nbs=
p;  =
; =
&=
nbsp; =20
<FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Area ratio =3D .000154/.00024 =3D=20
.642</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750145917-29052002><FONT face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750145917-29052002><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2>Should the=20
formula really use the aperture area instead of the pad=20
area?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750145917-29052002><FONT face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D2>Thanks.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Bo<SPAN=20
=
class=3D750145917-29052002>b</SPAN><BR><BR>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR>Robert=20
Barr<BR>Manufacturing Engineering<BR>Formation, Inc.<BR>Voice: =
856-234-5020=20
x3035<BR>Fax: 856-234-6679 </FONT></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Becerra =
Alejandro=20
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, May 29, 2002 =
1:41=20
PM<BR><B>To:</B> 'TechNet E-Mail Forum.'; 'bbarr'<BR><B>Subject:</B> =
RE:=20
[TN] FPBGA Area Ratio Question<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Bob,</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>I calculate the =
area ratio=20
using a 5 mil stencil and my numbers do not agree with yours.</FONT> =
</P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>1. Square aperture of 0.013". Area of Aperture =3D =
0.000169.=20
</FONT><BR> =20
=20
=20
=20
<FONT size=3D2>Area of =
Lateral=20
Walls =3D 0.013 X 4 X 0.005 =3D 0.00026.</FONT>=20
<BR> =20
=20
=20
=20
<FONT size=3D2>Area Ratio =
=3D=20
0.000169/0.00026 =3D 0.65.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>2. Square aperture of 0.012". Area of Aperture =3D =
0.000144.=20
</FONT><BR> =20
=20
=20
=20
<FONT size=3D2>Area of =
Lateral=20
Walls =3D 0.012 X 4 X 0.005 =3D 0.00024.</FONT>=20
<BR> =20
=20
=20
=20
<FONT size=3D2>Area Ratio =
=3D=20
0.000144/0.00024 =3D 0.60.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>If you take into account the radiused corners the =
area ratio=20
may be lower.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>I calculate for the option 1 =
(with=20
radiused corner of 0.003") and it was 0.68.</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>When you=20
reduce the size of the apertures with the same stencil thickness the =
area=20
ratio is reduced (not increased)</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Regards,</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Alejandro Becerra</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2></FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>-----Original Message-----</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>From:=20
bbarr [<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]</A>]</FONT=
>=20
<BR><FONT size=3D2>Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 9:40 AM</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>To: [log in to unmask]</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>Subject: [TN] =
FPBGA Area=20
Ratio Question</FONT> </P><BR>
<P><FONT size=3D2>On a fine pitch BGA (.8mm pitch, 384 balls, .5mm =
ball=20
diameter) I am using a</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>.014" diameter land =
per TI's=20
recommendation. I was thinking then of a .013"</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>square stencil aperture with .003" radiused corners on a 5 =
mil plate.=20
This</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>seemed reasonable until I did an area =
ratio=20
calculation per IPC-7525. The</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>result was =
.592, which=20
fails compared to the acceptable value of >.66. The</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>aspect ratio is a solid 2.6, although IPC says I should not =
consider=20
aspect</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>ratio in this case, only area =
ratio. If I=20
reduce down to a .012" square</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>aperture I =
can get to=20
an area ratio of .642. Still fails, but close. But,</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>reducing the aperture 2 mils compared to the pad seems =
extreme and=20
violates</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>the recommendation in para. =
3.2.2.4. So my=20
question is, what do you guys and</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>gals use =
for an=20
aperture design on a component like this? Do you go by the</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>IPC guidelines?</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Thanks.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Bob</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT =
size=3D2>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>Robert=20
Barr</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>Manufacturing Engineering</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>Formation, Inc.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>Voice: =
856-234-5020=20
x3035</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>Fax: 856-234-6679</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT=20
=
size=3D2>----------------------------------------------------------------=
-----------------</FONT>=20
<BR><FONT size=3D2>Technet Mail List provided as a free service by =
IPC using=20
LISTSERV 1.8d</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>To unsubscribe, send a =
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size=3D2>To=20
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<BR><FONT size=3D2>Search the archives of previous posts at: <A=20
href=3D"http://listserv.ipc.org/archives"=20
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<BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>Please visit IPC web site <A =
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[log in to unmask] or=20
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size=3D2>----------------------------------------------------------------=
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</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 08:36:40 +0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: conductive blind via plug
X-To: tony steinke <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Hi, Tony,
When I first read your posting, I bet myself a beer that you were using
laser drilled blind vias. I also bet myself that they were probably below
0.012" - are they? How deep do they go? You will have great difficulty
filling a small-diameter, blind laser-drilled via with this epoxy, or any
other, unless you can do it in a vacuum. The problem is being able to
displace the air inside the hole.
Dupont CB100 (now CB101, by the way) has a very small particle size, and is
specifically designed to fill small holes well. Any alternatives I have
heard of have larger particles and don't fill holes nearly as well. If you
have to keep the via-in-pad design, you may be faced with fabricating the
board with conventional drilling. This will mean laminating the layers
containing your blind vias and processing them as through holes. These can
then be filled successfully and outgassed, ground flat, etc., before the
remaining layers are laminated onto the stack, drilled and plated. It's
quite possible to fill holes up to 0.025" diameter and only 0.007" deep
with CB100/101, without the over-plated pads popping off during reflow.
The only other reason I can think of why pads would come off is if the
plating adhesion to the epoxy is faulty and you have a large CTE mismatch
between the BGA and the substrate material. Differential expansion could be
pulling weak pads off (??). Plating to CB100/101 is usually very
successful, so I can't say why plating adhesion should be bad - if it is.
Good luck
Peter
tony steinke <[log in to unmask]> 30/05/2002 04:09 AM
Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
Please respond to "TechNet E-Mail Forum."; Please respond to tony steinke
To: [log in to unmask]
cc: (bcc: DUNCAN Peter/Asst Prin Engr/ST Aero/ST Group)
Subject: Re: [TN] conductive blind via plug
Don, Russ, Rush
The application is a blind via under BGA pad. The process sequence is:
Lase via
electroless
full panel electroplate
CB100(lase vias only)
flash electroplate
drill
electroless
image
pattern plate
strip/etch
Thanks for the input.
Tony Steinke
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Vischulis
To: tony steinke
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 9:49 AM
Subject: RE: [TN] conductive blind via plug
Tony,
Please supply process details. The manufacturing sequence may be part of
the root problem.
Don Vischulis
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of tony steinke
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 11:33 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] conductive blind via plug
Techies,
We have done some initial testing on the DuPont CB100 conductive via plug
with blind via application and so far have been unsuccessful. The blind
via is approximately .016 diameter and .030 in depth. The biggest problem
we are experiencing is getting adhesion(BGA pads popping off) with
copper plating after the CB100 has been applied. Is there
another type of conductive blind via plug recipe on the market.
Thanks for any comments
Tony Steinke
[This e-mail is confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the
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Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 08:39:17 +0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re:
X-To: Mel Parrish <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Mel, DPMO is an FLA.
Peter
Mel Parrish <[log in to unmask]> 30/05/2002 04:15 AM
Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
Please respond to "TechNet E-Mail Forum."; Please respond to Mel Parrish
To: [log in to unmask]
cc: (bcc: DUNCAN Peter/Asst Prin Engr/ST Aero/ST Group)
Subject: Re: [TN]
Hi Ron,
There was an activity within the IPC termed DPMO which is a TLA for Defect
Per Million Opportunity. The original intent was to accomplish what you
asked for, comparing apples to apples. Off the top of my head I believe it
was IPC-9261.
Hope this helps,
Mel
Mel Parrish
Director of Training
Soldering Technology International
102 Tribble Drive
Madison, AL 35758
256 705 5530
256 705 5538 Fax
[log in to unmask]
www.solderingtech.com
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Dieselberg, Ron
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 12:57 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN]
One of our Quality Managers has asked me to quiz the TechNet for
information on solder defect rates. We think we are pretty good and
want to compare against others in the industry. He has asked for rates
for hand soldering and also machine (automatic) soldering. We deal in
two basic product lines; IR products and Space/Communications.
Any information regarding solder defect rates in the hand soldering
and or automatic soldering areas would be appreciated.
Thank you.
Ron Dieselberg
Trainer/Auditor
CMC ELECTRONICS
CINCINNATI
[log in to unmask]
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intended recipient, please delete it and notify us immediately; you should
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=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 08:44:30 +0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: bare board serialization
X-To: Mark Hargreaves <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Hi, Mark.
How many boards are you doing? Machines I cannot suggest for serialising
boards in panels. In my former salt mine, we used to hand mark with an
old-fashioned nib pen or quill, or even use the really hi-tech invention
called a rubber stamp to serialise boards with Pelican epoxy ink. Pelican
ink seemed to stand up to everything without fading or coming off.
Peter
Mark Hargreaves <[log in to unmask]> 30/05/2002 04:26 AM
Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
Please respond to "TechNet E-Mail Forum."; Please respond to Mark
Hargreaves
To: [log in to unmask]
cc: (bcc: DUNCAN Peter/Asst Prin Engr/ST Aero/ST Group)
Subject: [TN] bare board serialization
Hi All,
I'm looking for a way to serialize bare boards & panel coupons to provide
traceability for IPC 6012 jobs. Can anyone suggest a tool & ink type?
Thanks,
Mark Hargreaves
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Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 15:43:09 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Hogg, Blair K." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Hogg, Blair K." <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Solder Defect Rates
X-To: "Dieselberg, Ron" <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
You have more than one Quality Manager? I pity you, my friend. One is more
than enough.
I would like to share our information with you, and can do that either here
or off-line. Would like to see yours as well. e.g., "I'll show you mine if
you show me yours". Unfortunately, our data collection system does not
separate defects based upon the process that created them, a problem I have
been trying to get fixed for some time. I can give you our overall defect
rates, but cannot tell you that hand soldering has a specific defect rates,
THT has a specific rate, SMT has a specific rate, etc. Most of our boards
with SMT on them also have thru-hole, and we don't separate the defects
between processes there, either. I fear that this may be an issue with
ISO9000:2000.
Anyway, would be glad to help, let me know how you want to handle it.
Blair Hogg
Quality Manager
GAI-Tronics Corp.
-----Original Message-----
From: Dieselberg, Ron [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 1:57 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN]
One of our Quality Managers has asked me to quiz the TechNet for information
on solder defect rates. We think we are pretty good and want to compare
against others in the industry. He has asked for rates for hand soldering
and also machine (automatic) soldering. We deal in two basic product lines;
IR products and Space/Communications.
Any information regarding solder defect rates in the hand soldering and or
automatic soldering areas would be appreciated.
Thank you.
Ron Dieselberg
Trainer/Auditor
CMC ELECTRONICS
CINCINNATI
[log in to unmask]
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Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 21:56:29 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Cell phone antenna enhancers...
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hi all!
Gotta' pretty dumb question...but maybe not so dumb. Here in the states,
there seems to be a 3rd party business that has been marketing "Cell phone
antenna boosters" that supposedly prevents dropped calls, etc...
Looking at the pictures that I've seen of these devices, they do look like
some sort of RF board, but I'm really skeptical...especially when they always
sell for $19.95, and you get a hands free kit for free with them.
My first question is; why hasn't the OEM learned about, and adopted this
technology?
I know there's a bunch of people on the list that are involved in cell phone
manufacturing, and I'd like hear "from the horses mouth" so to speak, about
the true effectiveness of these 3rd party devices.
Are they a bunch of junk?
If they are, why haven't manufacturers like Motorola, Ericsson, etc. gone
after them, or at least alerted the public that they are spending money for
nothing when buying this crap?
Just something I thought about while watching the "boob-tube" tonight...
-Steve Gregory-
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Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 09:27:18 +0100
Reply-To: Dougal Stewart <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Dougal Stewart <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: bare board serialization
X-To: Mark Hargreaves <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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The easiest way to do this is to use an ink jet system. There are two
available in Europe. One is from New-system, and the other from Jetmask.
Both systems will print annotation on panel sizes up to 24x24 and with a
small software change can serialise your panels. The advantage is that they
are quick, easy and permanent. Inks have been developed to provide good
resolution and cure happens just after printing.
Dougal Stewart
email: [log in to unmask]
phone: +44 1896 822204
mob: +44 7984 629667
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Hargreaves" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 9:26 PM
Subject: [TN] bare board serialization
> Hi All,
> I'm looking for a way to serialize bare boards & panel coupons to provide
> traceability for IPC 6012 jobs. Can anyone suggest a tool & ink type?
>
> Thanks,
> Mark Hargreaves
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 08:14:34 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Phil Nutting <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Phil Nutting <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhancers...
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Steve,
I did some Internet surfing a while ago and found that there were sites =
selling these "wholesale" for about $0.40 each so you could resell them =
for $19.95 each. Just a small profit. To stop the whining at home I =
was able to find one for $5.00 (plus $5.00 shipping and handling - it =
was mailed in a $0.32 cent envelope). I can see no improvement is phone =
performance. Hang on to your hats here, they appear to be simply a gold =
colored ink silk screened onto a clear sticky backing. The skeptic in =
me says there is no way that this can have any affect on the received or =
sent signal. If you RF guys out there can 'splain how these work then I =
guess I owe you a beer.
Phil
-----Original Message-----
From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 9:56 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Cell phone antenna enhancers...
Hi all!
Gotta' pretty dumb question...but maybe not so dumb. Here in the states,
there seems to be a 3rd party business that has been marketing "Cell =
phone
antenna boosters" that supposedly prevents dropped calls, etc...
Looking at the pictures that I've seen of these devices, they do look =
like
some sort of RF board, but I'm really skeptical...especially when they =
always
sell for $19.95, and you get a hands free kit for free with them.
My first question is; why hasn't the OEM learned about, and adopted this
technology?
I know there's a bunch of people on the list that are involved in cell =
phone
manufacturing, and I'd like hear "from the horses mouth" so to speak, =
about
the true effectiveness of these 3rd party devices.
Are they a bunch of junk?
If they are, why haven't manufacturers like Motorola, Ericsson, etc. =
gone
after them, or at least alerted the public that they are spending money =
for
nothing when buying this crap?
Just something I thought about while watching the "boob-tube" tonight...
-Steve Gregory-
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Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 08:21:56 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Phil Nutting <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Phil Nutting <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: bare board serialization
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mark,
In past lives I've seen polyimide labels used. These were printed in a =
thermal printer and the material would stay on through the wave solder. =
For an easy start, look in the Brady labeling catalog for examples. =
Another place to go is your "local" Identco rep. =20
http://www.bxcommerce.com/identco/contact_info.asp
Phil
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Hargreaves [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 4:26 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] bare board serialization
Hi All,
I'm looking for a way to serialize bare boards & panel coupons to =
provide
traceability for IPC 6012 jobs. Can anyone suggest a tool & ink type?
Thanks,
Mark Hargreaves
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Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 08:35:45 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Jack C. Olson" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Jack C. Olson" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: ASSY: Component Polarity
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Here at Caterpillar we are starting to do some designs that are dense
enough that the silkscreen gets in the way.
We would like to have some method of identifying component polarity even
without a silkscreen and without a drawing, and about the only thing we can
think of is to lengthen the "pin one" pad for ICs, and cut the corners off
the anode or positive side of diodes and caps. What worries me is the
shaved corners. After preaching to everyone the value of having some kind
of standard land patterns, I'm now advocating six sided geometries?
but anyway,
Have any of you seen soldering or reliability problems by cutting the
corners off a pad?
Is there a "trimming ratio" I should maintain?
Any other ideas?
Jack
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Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 08:36:39 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhancers...
X-To: [log in to unmask]
Steve,
It is junk and it, like all other 1995 specials should be banned. I stopped,
for the most part, watching TV because of this stuff and paid 30 minute
commercials.
Some RF mastermind must have had a hand in this counterfitting. The thing,
when viewed on TV, actualy looks very much like a gold plated circuit board
on Duroid or alumina. To that, I talked to lot's of PCB folks and could not
find, even amoungst the worst/cheapest, one involved in the fabrication of
the crap.
A more frustrating problem for me is the increasing span on my email
accounts. I don't need a lower interest rate, Viagre, or a male sex organ
extension and I really sick of hearing about this crap as well even though
I'm a born again sexist pig.
Let's get 'em, or not.
Earl
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Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 08:42:19 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ASSY: Component Polarity
X-To: "Jack C. Olson" <[log in to unmask]>
Jack,
I did some auto and other off road work before. I never had a problem with
board sizes being so small or dense.
First, just out of curiosity, I can't imaging a CAT needing such tight
packaging but you have your reasons. Shaving small pads can cause some
problems on like 0402's and smaller but, again, I can't imagine you needing
to go there. I just have a mental block.
Pad extensions or spurs, can work but cut into vital real estate you have
none of, obviously. I guess all I have are questions about size and how it
matters so much here especially when used in some of the most ruggedized
designs and product on the planet. I just see reliability issues written all
over this.
Please tell us more,
Earl Moon
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Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 10:03:10 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Mark Charlton <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Mark Charlton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ASSY: Component Polarity
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The standard I've seen is Pin 1 is a true rectangle and the other pins =
are oblongs. For the technicians it's nice to make every 10th pin a =
rectangle as long as it doesn't confuse the assembly issue. =20
Caps and diodes are another story but some small silkscreen indicator =
between the pads justified to the assembly polarity side could still be =
possible.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Jack C. Olson [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 9:36 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ASSY: Component Polarity
Here at Caterpillar we are starting to do some designs that are dense
enough that the silkscreen gets in the way.
We would like to have some method of identifying component polarity even
without a silkscreen and without a drawing, and about the only thing we =
can
think of is to lengthen the "pin one" pad for ICs, and cut the corners =
off
the anode or positive side of diodes and caps. What worries me is the
shaved corners. After preaching to everyone the value of having some =
kind
of standard land patterns, I'm now advocating six sided geometries?
but anyway,
Have any of you seen soldering or reliability problems by cutting the
corners off a pad?
Is there a "trimming ratio" I should maintain?
Any other ideas?
Jack
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Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 10:31:23 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Phil Nutting <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Phil Nutting <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ASSY: Component Polarity
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jack,
Our "standard" is to use a square pad for pin 1 of connectors, positive =
lead of electrolytic or polarized capacitors and the cathode of diodes.
Hope this helps.
Phil
-----Original Message-----
From: Jack C. Olson [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 9:36 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] ASSY: Component Polarity
Here at Caterpillar we are starting to do some designs that are dense
enough that the silkscreen gets in the way.
We would like to have some method of identifying component polarity even
without a silkscreen and without a drawing, and about the only thing we =
can
think of is to lengthen the "pin one" pad for ICs, and cut the corners =
off
the anode or positive side of diodes and caps. What worries me is the
shaved corners. After preaching to everyone the value of having some =
kind
of standard land patterns, I'm now advocating six sided geometries?
but anyway,
Have any of you seen soldering or reliability problems by cutting the
corners off a pad?
Is there a "trimming ratio" I should maintain?
Any other ideas?
Jack
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Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 10:46:47 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Phil Nutting <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Phil Nutting <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ASSY: Component Polarity - part 2
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jack,
Forgot to mention that we use only the archaic through-hole technology. =
For surface mount I defer to the other members of Technet.
Phil
-----Original Message-----
From: Jack C. Olson [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 9:36 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] ASSY: Component Polarity
Here at Caterpillar we are starting to do some designs that are dense
enough that the silkscreen gets in the way.
We would like to have some method of identifying component polarity even
without a silkscreen and without a drawing, and about the only thing we =
can
think of is to lengthen the "pin one" pad for ICs, and cut the corners =
off
the anode or positive side of diodes and caps. What worries me is the
shaved corners. After preaching to everyone the value of having some =
kind
of standard land patterns, I'm now advocating six sided geometries?
but anyway,
Have any of you seen soldering or reliability problems by cutting the
corners off a pad?
Is there a "trimming ratio" I should maintain?
Any other ideas?
Jack
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
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Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 10:57:42 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Kasprzak, Bill (sys) USX" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Kasprzak, Bill (sys) USX" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhancers...
X-To: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Earl:
I share your frustration. I even recall as recent as within the last 6
months that I've ads in the Sunday paper about a "Dish" system that "pulls
signals out of the air". The ad goes on to claim that "No cable needed",
works with all televisions, clear reception, blah, blah, blah. Anyhow the
"Dish" system sells for $29.95, limit 2 per household. (What BS!!)
It makes me sick to see some jack___ outfit taking advantage of folks by
disguising rabbit ears as some sort of high tech dish system. But we're told
that that's the price you pay to be in the free enterprise system. That's
why it doesn't hurt to ask around like Steve has.
What bothers me though is the radio ads for gold futures, grain futures,
cell phone number blocks, etc. that warn that time is limited, get in on the
ground floor etc. With a $5K investment you can double your money in 6 mo.
or less. How does one know when something is legit. I guess if you live by
the creed of "If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is", I think
we'll all be fine.
Sorry 'bout the non-tech content. Have a good one.
Bill Kasprzak
Moog Inc. Manufacturing Engineering, Electronics
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Earl Moon [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 9:37 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Cell phone antenna enhancers...
>
> Steve,
>
> It is junk and it, like all other 1995 specials should be banned. I
> stopped,
> for the most part, watching TV because of this stuff and paid 30 minute
> commercials.
>
> Some RF mastermind must have had a hand in this counterfitting. The thing,
> when viewed on TV, actualy looks very much like a gold plated circuit
> board
> on Duroid or alumina. To that, I talked to lot's of PCB folks and could
> not
> find, even amoungst the worst/cheapest, one involved in the fabrication of
> the crap.
>
> A more frustrating problem for me is the increasing span on my email
> accounts. I don't need a lower interest rate, Viagre, or a male sex organ
> extension and I really sick of hearing about this crap as well even though
> I'm a born again sexist pig.
>
> Let's get 'em, or not.
>
> Earl
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
> Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d
> To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in
> the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet
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> [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest
> Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives
> Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm for additional
> information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-509-9700
> ext.5315
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
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Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 11:03:35 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Marsico, James" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Marsico, James" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhancers...
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I seem to recall a News program evaluating these "enhancers" and determined
no improved performance.
Jim Marsico
Senior Engineer
Production Engineering
EDO Electronics Systems Group
[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
631-595-5879
-----Original Message-----
From: [log in to unmask] [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 9:56 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Cell phone antenna enhancers...
Hi all!
Gotta' pretty dumb question...but maybe not so dumb. Here in the
states,
there seems to be a 3rd party business that has been marketing "Cell
phone
antenna boosters" that supposedly prevents dropped calls, etc...
Looking at the pictures that I've seen of these devices, they do
look like
some sort of RF board, but I'm really skeptical...especially when
they always
sell for $19.95, and you get a hands free kit for free with them.
My first question is; why hasn't the OEM learned about, and adopted
this
technology?
I know there's a bunch of people on the list that are involved in
cell phone
manufacturing, and I'd like hear "from the horses mouth" so to
speak, about
the true effectiveness of these 3rd party devices.
Are they a bunch of junk?
If they are, why haven't manufacturers like Motorola, Ericsson, etc.
gone
after them, or at least alerted the public that they are spending
money for
nothing when buying this crap?
Just something I thought about while watching the "boob-tube"
tonight...
-Steve Gregory-
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Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 11:18:49 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: ASSY: Component Polarity
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="part1_e.1fad398f.2a279cd9_boundary"
--part1_e.1fad398f.2a279cd9_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hello Jack,
I hear good things about Cat these days.
I don't like ink and never have. Back in the day of 1206's being the
smallest part we would radius the outer corners of the significant end. It
is small stuff, but the symmetry helps the wetting. [If I had my "duthers"
I'd durther all my external land corners were radius', but I digress...] We
made the pin 1 of actives longer (both ends of the rectangle pad to aid in
design ease and DRC) then solder mask defined to be same as the others. The
land is still clearly visible. All of this stuff went down the tubes when
BGAs and their small neighborhood of passives arrived. Life then taught us
there is no replacement for exact database for pick and place (etal) and very
clear assembly drawings. Getting the very clear assembly drawing is not as
easy as one may assume. It is quite a bit of time and can be prone to error.
I like two drawings... or views... one that only shows the parts that are
reflowed, the other view (or others) show all else. In the HiRel Military
arena a stand alone assembly drawing dedicated to reflow worked rather nicely
and it avoided folks creating "their own print." Nothing like happy people
building to print.
The bottom line... in the micro surface mount part assembly, I would not make
any alterations that might impact the quality of the assembly. I would spend
the time on documentation. Depend on database for volume and print for
proto.
Brad
--part1_e.1fad398f.2a279cd9_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Hello Jack,<BR>
<BR>
I hear good things about Cat these days. <BR>
I don't like ink and never have. Back in the day of 1206's being the smallest part we would radius the outer corners of the significant end. It is small stuff, but the symmetry helps the wetting. [If I had my "duthers" I'd durther all my external land corners were radius', but I digress...] We made the pin 1 of actives longer (both ends of the rectangle pad to aid in design ease and DRC) then solder mask defined to be same as the others. The land is still clearly visible. All of this stuff went down the tubes when BGAs and their small neighborhood of passives arrived. Life then taught us there is no replacement for exact database for pick and place (etal) and very clear assembly drawings. Getting the very clear assembly drawing is not as easy as one may assume. It is quite a bit of time and can be prone to error. I like two drawings... or views... one that only shows the parts that are reflowed, the other view!
(or others) show all else. In the HiRel Military arena a stand alone assembly drawing dedicated to reflow worked rather nicely and it avoided folks creating "their own print." Nothing like happy people building to print. <BR>
The bottom line... in the micro surface mount part assembly, I would not make any alterations that might impact the quality of the assembly. I would spend the time on documentation. Depend on database for volume and print for proto. <BR>
<BR>
Brad<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_e.1fad398f.2a279cd9_boundary--
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Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 10:16:46 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhancers...
X-To: [log in to unmask]
Bill,
No matter what anyone says, these are very sick economic times. Never, in
all my 5 or so recessions have is experienced this.
I don't blame anyone for trying to make a buck but it's totally out of hand.
It's gone too far and, as sad as it sounds, someone needs to do something. I
hope it's not big brother but if so, so be it.
There are predators out there amongst, mostly, the poorest people who are
unarmed against such an onslaught. I can tell you some really "exciting" war
stories about my extensive travels to some of the most primitive of places -
right here in the good old USA. Free enterprise for sure, just find a way to
get rid of the vermon that keeps multiplying exponentially.
I'd just like us all to have the cojones to stop driving for just one damn
day and see the oil producers' eyes roll back in their heads for busted
profits. Same might work for TV viewers and eaters of big mac crap.
Steve hit a vital nerve. Too many people taking advantage of too many
others. I just want to know where and when the next honest technology is to
take place.
I'll put my money, what little there is, on the Caterpillars of the world
because we need food, not more highways jam packed with SUV's and million
dollar buses.
We need to get real serious about technology - the next time around. Enough
of this crap spawned by .com's.
Earl
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Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 10:29:45 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Bloomquist, Ken" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Bloomquist, Ken" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Woops, just a minute MoonMan. This has been going on for as long as there
has been something to exchange hands. I have an early 1900's Sears catalogue
that has these really neat electronic belts for sale that will cure just
about any ailment that you can think of. They are very similar to the ones
that "our" Government recently took off the market for false advertising.
You know the ones that will tighten every muscle in your body while watching
TV! It only took 100 years to close down that scam.
Keep the faith and like you said "if it's too good....."
KennyB
-----Original Message-----
From: Earl Moon [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
No matter what anyone says, these are very sick economic times. Never, in
all my 5 or so recessions have is experienced this.
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Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 13:56:50 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
James TerVeen <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: James TerVeen <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
X-To: "Bloomquist, Ken" <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
I have to tell you, that when these great antenna came out I was working
for an RF company and went to the top notch engineers and asked about them.
There answers were that it was highly unlikely that they would make any
difference and that the company that made them probably tested them and got
a little better performance and because of that they can make the claim
that they work. Kind of like the drug companies testing there drugs and
saying they are good for you. I have a number of friends that bought
them and said they did nothing for the reception. But the wireless hands
free speaker attachment they got works great.
"Bloomquist, Ken"
<ken.bloomquist@G To: [log in to unmask]
D-AES.COM> cc:
Sent by: TechNet Subject: Re: [TN] Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
<[log in to unmask]>
05/30/02 01:29 PM
Please respond to
"TechNet E-Mail
Forum."; Please
respond to
"Bloomquist, Ken"
Woops, just a minute MoonMan. This has been going on for as long as there
has been something to exchange hands. I have an early 1900's Sears
catalogue
that has these really neat electronic belts for sale that will cure just
about any ailment that you can think of. They are very similar to the ones
that "our" Government recently took off the market for false advertising.
You know the ones that will tighten every muscle in your body while
watching
TV! It only took 100 years to close down that scam.
Keep the faith and like you said "if it's too good....."
KennyB
-----Original Message-----
From: Earl Moon [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
No matter what anyone says, these are very sick economic times. Never, in
all my 5 or so recessions have is experienced this.
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Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 13:25:40 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Jim Jenkins <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Jim Jenkins <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: ESD and equipment isolation
Hi everybody,
One of our internal specifications states that processing equipment needs to
be "electrically isolated" from the static dissipative mat. We are
interpreting this to mean that if the equipment has a metal case it is not
allowed to be in contact with the mat. There has been some controversy over
this, because we have whole areas and labs that have test equipment and
other items that do not have the little feet on the bottom and make contact
with the mat.
We have people arguing on both sides here. Some say that the contact
provides a direct path to ground taking out the resistance needed to slow
down the discharge. I say that the dissipative (rather than conductive)
nature of the mat provides the necessary resistance. That is why resistors
are no longer required in ESD specifications.
Others say that the equipment can inject electrical energy through the mat
into the ESDS devices.
What do you all think?
Thanks,
Jim Jenkins
[log in to unmask]
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Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 13:50:46 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
X-To: "Bloomquist, Ken" <[log in to unmask]>
Hell Ken, Steve started this stuff. Chris, Bill, and so many more just
jumping on my asymetric ass. OK, it's free enterprise at its best?
Come on, let's really come up with a better receptor for TV or phone devices
that really work. No matter, there's too many fools, rich or poor, paying
too much at the pump and way too many supporting any stupid opportunity to
make a buck like junk bonds, Enron, and so many more. Where's it end?
I'm one of the world's great appreciators of money, but always tried to get
it honestly though sometimes getting close to the line. Again, no matter,
where's the beef? It's just too damn easy to invent good stuff so why resort
to crap - to use Steve's term.
MoonMan
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Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 15:03:43 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Bissonnette, Jean-Francois" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Bissonnette, Jean-Francois" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
X-To: "Bloomquist, Ken" <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I remember some scam, not unlike those belts that GARANTEED results if you
would follow the system as it is explained. The catch was that in the
advertising,
they would describe the whole package... belt, instructions, cream.... ya ya
ya
and... a book about efficient diet.... (following the book was how they
garanteed
results)
-----Original Message-----
From: Bloomquist, Ken [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 1:30 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
Woops, just a minute MoonMan. This has been going on for as long as there
has been something to exchange hands. I have an early 1900's Sears catalogue
that has these really neat electronic belts for sale that will cure just
about any ailment that you can think of. They are very similar to the ones
that "our" Government recently took off the market for false advertising.
You know the ones that will tighten every muscle in your body while watching
TV! It only took 100 years to close down that scam.
Keep the faith and like you said "if it's too good....."
KennyB
-----Original Message-----
From: Earl Moon [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
No matter what anyone says, these are very sick economic times. Never, in
all my 5 or so recessions have is experienced this.
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Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 15:17:44 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Edward S. Wheeler" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Edward S. Wheeler" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
X-To: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Earl, I have to say I think there's a bit of misdirected hostility at the
oil companies. Gas, fuel oil, airplane fuel, etc. are actually less now
than in the 50s, adjusted for inflation. The oil companies must find the
reserves, pay for the rights, develop and market the product, etc. In my
opinion they deserve to make money at it. Have you taken a look at what
taxes are on gasoline? By the way, if we stopped driving for a day, a lot
of us would not be going to work to keep the our country moving. If you
want to take a bike, fine, but 30 miles in the dark and snow is a bit much
for me.
I personally think new products will come with demand. If more people want
electric cars, great. I would like to see a fuel cell powered car, but
until they have the range, reliability, and power of my car, I will
continue to wait.
By the way, as far as the cell phone antenna goes, my preferred solution is
a more educated and aware populace, not another big brother solution.
Just my opinion.
Ed
At 01:50 PM 5/30/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>Hell Ken, Steve started this stuff. Chris, Bill, and so many more just
>jumping on my asymetric ass. OK, it's free enterprise at its best?
>
>Come on, let's really come up with a better receptor for TV or phone devices
>that really work. No matter, there's too many fools, rich or poor, paying
>too much at the pump and way too many supporting any stupid opportunity to
>make a buck like junk bonds, Enron, and so many more. Where's it end?
>
>I'm one of the world's great appreciators of money, but always tried to get
>it honestly though sometimes getting close to the line. Again, no matter,
>where's the beef? It's just too damn easy to invent good stuff so why resort
>to crap - to use Steve's term.
>
>MoonMan
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 14:23:19 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
X-To: Edward Wheeler <[log in to unmask]>
Ed,
You have humbled me. You're absolutely right. It's ok then to see gas
pricess going through ceiling during, and way before, peak driving seasons.
I see your reasoning and surrender to its logic.
Hell, I'm buying a big old SUV tomorrow because I owe it to Exxon and the
rest of the consortum based mostly in the Middle East. I want to support
Kuwait again in another stupid war and my Afgahn, Saudi, and Iraqi friends
deserve my support as well based on whatever lokic they conjur up to serve
themselves though not their live in "servants". I'm also going to send Bill
Gates some of my money just to see him get over the 100 billion mark again.
MoonMan
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Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 14:27:06 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ESD and equipment isolation
X-To: Jim Jenkins <[log in to unmask]>
Just ground everything to a common. The resistive thing is there for human
protection, not to slow down conductive discharge. Don't want our people
getting zapped, do we?
MoonMan
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Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 13:15:27 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Bloomquist, Ken" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Bloomquist, Ken" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I think I now know why that guy was wanting that 4'X 8' PWB, a new cell
phone add on that will positively give it better reception ;-)
OK, I'm done!
KennyB
-----Original Message-----
From: Earl Moon [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Come on, let's really come up with a better receptor for TV or phone devices
that really work.
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Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 16:17:53 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Kane, Joseph" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Kane, Joseph" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ESD and equipment isolation
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain
Jim:
DOD-HDBK-263 Appendix E para. 50.2 says in part "Tools and test
equipment on grounded work work benches with metal or other
conductive coverings can shunt the protective resistance in the
work bench ground cable if allowed to contact the work surface."
It's not likely that equipment will inject electrical energy
into the work through the mat. One-megohm resistance from mat
to ground protects the operator so that if they touch something
live, the current doesn't run through them directly to ground
(like standing in a puddle). That's why wrist straps and
static mats have resistors in the snaps. Some mats might be
resistive enough that a resistor is not needed in the ground
connection, but I know that the 3M mats that we use are quite
conductive, and the resistor is absolutely needed.
The handbook suggests the possibility of using ground fault
circuit interrupters, but Appendix G para. 30.1.f also says
"Electrically powered tools, test equipment, and fixtures used
in ESD protected areas should be properly grounded. Grounding
of electrical test equipment should be via a grounded plug,
not through the surface of the ESD protective work station."
We require 3-pronged plugs or UL listing on anything electrical
at an ESD protective work station.
Joe Kane
BAE SYSTEMS Controls
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Jenkins [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 2:26 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] ESD and equipment isolation
Hi everybody,
One of our internal specifications states that processing equipment needs to
be "electrically isolated" from the static dissipative mat. We are
interpreting this to mean that if the equipment has a metal case it is not
allowed to be in contact with the mat. There has been some controversy over
this, because we have whole areas and labs that have test equipment and
other items that do not have the little feet on the bottom and make contact
with the mat.
We have people arguing on both sides here. Some say that the contact
provides a direct path to ground taking out the resistance needed to slow
down the discharge. I say that the dissipative (rather than conductive)
nature of the mat provides the necessary resistance. That is why resistors
are no longer required in ESD specifications.
Others say that the equipment can inject electrical energy through the mat
into the ESDS devices.
What do you all think?
Thanks,
Jim Jenkins
[log in to unmask]
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Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 15:23:25 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
[log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
X-To: [log in to unmask]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Good afternoon all,
I have been watching this thread with some amusement. I have an alternate
theory on why these scams work, other than human gullibility. How many of
us have seen performance sacrifices in the name of cost engineering, or to
make a product X% lighter, Y% smaller, etc? Look at some of the power
tools of the 60s (big honkin' hunks of metal) and those of today
(plastics). Tools are cheaper today (relatively speaking) and lighter, but
they won't last 25 years like before. In terms of the cell phone antennas,
you could make antennas that would pick up conversations on other
continents, but you wouldn't want to carry it around and probably would not
want to pay for it. The price for that ever so chic small cell phone is
diminished reception. Unless you are an RF engineer, you don't have the
technical background to make the call, but we all know that companies don't
build em the way they used to. In addition, look at the secondary products
markets that offer you items that the OEMs did not include in the base
package to make it cheap enough to get on your radar? The secondary
products industry is booming for this reason. I would bet we could all
look at our products and see some similar shortcuts made in the name of
cost engineering.
Well, except for Rockwell Collins of course..............
Doug Pauls
Rockwell Collins
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Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 15:38:44 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
X-To: [log in to unmask]
As always good stuff. Just got the following, besides my Viagra and penis
enlargement ad, for your kind consideration:
Antenna Booster Special Discount
Don't you just hate it when you lose important calls on your mobile phone?
Put an end to all of your reception problems today with the Cellular Antenna
Booster - As on TV - millions have been sold!
For a limited time, buy one Booster at OVER 50% OFF and get a second Booster
FREE!
And, the next 50 responses to this promotion will also get FREE SHIPPING!
Click here for details
Your satisfaction is guaranteed. 30 Day Money-Back Guarantee.
Best Wishes,
Mary
TheUseful Editor - Special Deals
OutF'nrageous.
MoonMan on no Dew
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Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 15:12:22 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
X-To: "Bloomquist, Ken" <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
You definitely are cool
MoonMan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bloomquist, Ken" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 2:15 PM
Subject: Re: [TN] Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
> I think I now know why that guy was wanting that 4'X 8' PWB, a new cell
> phone add on that will positively give it better reception ;-)
>
> OK, I'm done!
>
> KennyB
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Earl Moon [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>
> Come on, let's really come up with a better receptor for TV or phone
devices
> that really work.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
> Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d
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SET Technet NOMAIL
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ext.5315
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 16:11:04 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
A support system might just work if placed in my car's headliner. I just
want to know where Zeva is during all this. Makes me look like a piker when
it comes to stirring the pot. I relenquish my never received silver spoon.
MoonMan
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Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 17:22:21 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Guy Ramsey <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Guy Ramsey <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ESD and equipment isolation
X-To: Jim Jenkins <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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The only danger I see is injection of unwanted potential into the mat. A GFI
(Ground Fault Interrupt) on the equipment circuit would eliminate that
possibility and is a good practice anyway. "Common" ground in some old
factories may have significant voltage potential. The GFI will trip under
those conditions, drive maintenance crazy for a little while, but it will
prevent EOS damage caused by the conditions that your old policy attempts to
prevent.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Jim Jenkins
> Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 2:26 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] ESD and equipment isolation
>
>
> Hi everybody,
>
> One of our internal specifications states that processing
> equipment needs to
> be "electrically isolated" from the static dissipative mat. We are
> interpreting this to mean that if the equipment has a metal case it is not
> allowed to be in contact with the mat. There has been some
> controversy over
> this, because we have whole areas and labs that have test equipment and
> other items that do not have the little feet on the bottom and
> make contact
> with the mat.
>
> We have people arguing on both sides here. Some say that the contact
> provides a direct path to ground taking out the resistance needed to slow
> down the discharge. I say that the dissipative (rather than conductive)
> nature of the mat provides the necessary resistance. That is why
> resistors
> are no longer required in ESD specifications.
>
> Others say that the equipment can inject electrical energy through the mat
> into the ESDS devices.
>
> What do you all think?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jim Jenkins
>
> [log in to unmask]
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------
> Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d
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> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------
>
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=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 17:21:31 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Edward S. Wheeler" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Edward S. Wheeler" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
X-To: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Hey, you didn't include the link! If I hurry, I can get free shipping!
Just kidding.
At 03:38 PM 5/30/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>As always good stuff. Just got the following, besides my Viagra and penis
>enlargement ad, for your kind consideration:
>
>Antenna Booster Special Discount
>
>Don't you just hate it when you lose important calls on your mobile phone?
>Put an end to all of your reception problems today with the Cellular Antenna
>Booster - As on TV - millions have been sold!
>
>For a limited time, buy one Booster at OVER 50% OFF and get a second Booster
>FREE!
>
>And, the next 50 responses to this promotion will also get FREE SHIPPING!
>
>Click here for details
>
>Your satisfaction is guaranteed. 30 Day Money-Back Guarantee.
>
>Best Wishes,
>
>Mary
>TheUseful Editor - Special Deals
>
>OutF'nrageous.
>
>MoonMan on no Dew
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
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Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 17:26:47 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="part1_125.115b2f1c.2a27f317_boundary"
--part1_125.115b2f1c.2a27f317_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hi All -
I think it comes down to a combination of all these factors including that we
believe what we want to believe - in light of Doug's comments. And the fact
that most people do not read the fine print and/or take things out of
context.
My column in the April issue of Circuits Assembly Magazine (On The Forefront)
was a big April Fools joke. The last line of the last paragraph said so.
But you should see the e-mail and phone calls I received wondering who was
the manufacturer of the pick and place system from New Zealand that could do
from 0.030" flip chip to 1.5" square BGAs at a true placement rate of
40K/hour with +/- 1 micron accuracy (several were from pick and place
manufacturers -possibly acquisition?), or a plasma based stencil that forms
the apertures to program (rather than hard tooled). I thought that, for
sure, the lead-free alloy that contained aluminum that was discovered during
the NATO air raids in Yugoslavia when a building with aluminum siding melted
down would be a sure tip-off that it was a joke. While a lot of people saw
through it and got a good laugh, let's just say that P.T. Barnum would have
been right at home in this industry.
Now about that no-clean flux residue that turns into carbon dioxide during
reflow....
Regards,
Phil Zarrow
ITM Consulting
Durham, NH USA
www.ITM-SMT.com
T: (603) 868-1754
F: (603) 868-3623
EM:[log in to unmask]
--part1_125.115b2f1c.2a27f317_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Hi All - <BR>
I think it comes down to a combination of all these factors including that we believe what we want to believe - in light of Doug's comments. And the fact that most people do not read the fine print and/or take things out of context. <BR>
My column in the April issue of Circuits Assembly Magazine (On The Forefront) was a big April Fools joke. The last line of the last paragraph said so. But you should see the e-mail and phone calls I received wondering who was the manufacturer of the pick and place system from New Zealand that could do from 0.030" flip chip to 1.5" square BGAs at a true placement rate of 40K/hour with +/- 1 micron accuracy (several were from pick and place manufacturers -possibly acquisition?), or a plasma based stencil that forms the apertures to program (rather than hard tooled). I thought that, for sure, the lead-free alloy that contained aluminum that was discovered during the NATO air raids in Yugoslavia when a building with aluminum siding melted down would be a sure tip-off that it was a joke. While a lot of people saw through it and got a good laugh, let's just say that P.T. Barnum would have been right at home in this industry.<BR>
Now about that no-clean flux residue that turns into carbon dioxide during reflow....<BR>
Regards,<BR>
Phil Zarrow<BR>
<BR>
<B>ITM Consulting <BR>
Durham, NH USA<BR>
www.ITM-SMT.com<BR>
T: (603) 868-1754<BR>
F: (603) 868-3623<BR>
EM:[log in to unmask]</B></FONT></HTML>
--part1_125.115b2f1c.2a27f317_boundary--
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Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 16:45:47 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
X-To: [log in to unmask]
Don't understand a word you said Phil but certainly enjoyed it as much as my
cell phone and male organ enhancement.
MoonMan
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Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 18:02:27 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Ken Carlile <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Ken Carlile <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
X-To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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(tongue in cheek)
What does Rockwell's SSI stand for again???
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of
[log in to unmask]
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 4:23 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
Good afternoon all,
I have been watching this thread with some amusement. I have an alternate
theory on why these scams work, other than human gullibility. How many of
us have seen performance sacrifices in the name of cost engineering, or to
make a product X% lighter, Y% smaller, etc? Look at some of the power
tools of the 60s (big honkin' hunks of metal) and those of today
(plastics). Tools are cheaper today (relatively speaking) and lighter, but
they won't last 25 years like before. In terms of the cell phone antennas,
you could make antennas that would pick up conversations on other
continents, but you wouldn't want to carry it around and probably would not
want to pay for it. The price for that ever so chic small cell phone is
diminished reception. Unless you are an RF engineer, you don't have the
technical background to make the call, but we all know that companies don't
build em the way they used to. In addition, look at the secondary products
markets that offer you items that the OEMs did not include in the base
package to make it cheap enough to get on your radar? The secondary
products industry is booming for this reason. I would bet we could all
look at our products and see some similar shortcuts made in the name of
cost engineering.
Well, except for Rockwell Collins of course..............
Doug Pauls
Rockwell Collins
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Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 18:07:14 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
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Oh I'm here MoonMan...just been sitting back enjoying all the interaction.
Didn't think I would stir the pot like this though (hehehe).
Where's David Horowitz when you need him...remember that show? "Fight back,
and don't let anybody rip you off!"
http://www.fightback.com/
-Steve Gregory-
> A support system might just work if placed in my car's headliner. I just
> want to know where Zeva is during all this. Makes me look like a piker when
> it comes to stirring the pot. I relenquish my never received silver spoon.
>
> MoonMan
>
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>Oh I'm here MoonMan...just been sitting back enjoying all the interaction. Didn't think I would stir the pot like this though (hehehe).
<BR>
<BR>Where's David Horowitz when you need him...remember that show? "Fight back, and don't let anybody rip you off!"
<BR>
<BR>http://www.fightback.com/
<BR>
<BR>-Steve Gregory-
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">A support system might just work if placed in my car's headliner. I just
<BR>want to know where Zeva is during all this. Makes me look like a piker when
<BR>it comes to stirring the pot. I relenquish my never received silver spoon.
<BR>
<BR>MoonMan
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
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Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 17:08:26 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
X-To: [log in to unmask]
Kiss off Zeva but you might like another reason for your pot stirring:
INCREASE your cell phone
reception for only $9.99!
Click Here To Order
Enhance your cell phone, pager, or two way radio's signal for better
reception in large buildings, tunnels, elevators, and many other places
where the signal may get weak causing static, missed calls, dropped calls,
etc. This easy-to-install internal antenna is like adding 4 feet worth of
antenna to your phone!
Your signal booster will:
reduce static
provide clarity
stabilize reception
work on any phone
work on any system
Easy to Install
Just slip in behind battery!
Click Here To Order
Please know that we do not want to send you information regarding our
special offers if you do not wish to receive it. If you would no longer like
us to contact you or feel that you have received this email in error, please
click here to unsubscribe.
Still, to comply with technology and the generous folks at IPC, is there
anyone or thing making this stuff work?
MoonMan
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Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 17:18:39 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
X-To: Ken Carlile <[log in to unmask]>
KC,
You would insult the Rockwell integrity? I have had it with you. Keep it up.
MoonMan
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Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 15:40:18 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Ken Patel <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Ken Patel <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: interWAVE Communications, Inc.
Subject: Looking for place who offer classes on ICT/DFT in Bay Area
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Guys,
Looking for a place in San Jose Bay Area where I can learn more about
ICT testing and fixturing, DFT rules, etc. I am a nonEE kind of guy and
have pretty good knowledge on DFM. Now a day, DFX knowledge is a real
plus.
Also, please recommend and good reference book on the subject.
re,
ken patel
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Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 19:14:48 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: NTC - The Gregory's are a team now...
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Just something I'd like to let you all know, Jason Gregory has joined us at
LaBarge, after suffering the abrupt closure by Sanmina of the plant he worked
at in Austin, Texas...Earl is painfully aware of that.
Really glad to have him join us! The rumor that we have going here is that
he's my brother, cousin, etc...but we're not related...except in the desire
to do things right the first time.
I'm really, really, glad he accepted the position!
-Steve Gregory-
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Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 16:37:11 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Mcmaster, Michael" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Mcmaster, Michael" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Reflow Oven Recommendations
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I am on a team that is looking at options for a reflow oven to attach heat
sinks to printed circuit boards with lead-free solders. I'm interested in
your unbiased (or even biased) opinions on oven types and manufacturers for
this type of application. Feel free to contact me off-line if you feel more
comfortable. Thanks in advance for your responses.
Mike McMaster
RF Product Engineer
Merix Corporation
Forest Grove OR
503-992-4263
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I am on a team that is looking at =
options for a reflow oven to attach heat sinks to printed circuit =
boards with lead-free solders. I'm interested in your unbiased =
(or even biased) opinions on oven types and manufacturers for this type =
of application. Feel free to contact me off-line if you feel more =
comfortable. Thanks in advance for your responses.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"MS Sans Serif">Mike McMaster</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"MS Sans Serif">RF Product Engineer</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"MS Sans Serif">Merix Corporation </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"MS Sans Serif">Forest Grove OR</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"MS Sans Serif">503-992-4263</FONT>
</P>
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Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 16:57:49 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Ochenas, Tom" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Ochenas, Tom" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: soldermask ring v. full coat for BGA design
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Esteemed Technetters,
I am working on a BGA package that, for design reasons, cannot have [much]
soldermask on the top side of the FR-4... As a result, a solid soldermask
layer (with BGA openings) on the bottom side will bow the board during board
fabrication. We are considering using soldermask rings around the BGA pads
to mitigate bowing.
QUESTION: what is the minimum width (o.d. minus i.d.) the soldermask ring
can be and still perform its function
Your collective insight and experience would be greatly appreciated!
Best Regards,
Tom Ochenas
Maxtek Components Corporation
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Patel [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 3:40 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Looking for place who offer classes on ICT/DFT in Bay Area
Guys,
Looking for a place in San Jose Bay Area where I can learn more about
ICT testing and fixturing, DFT rules, etc. I am a nonEE kind of guy and
have pretty good knowledge on DFM. Now a day, DFX knowledge is a real
plus.
Also, please recommend and good reference book on the subject.
re,
ken patel
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Esteemed Technetters,</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I am working on a BGA package that, for design =
reasons, cannot have [much] soldermask on the top side of the FR-4... =
As a result, a solid soldermask layer (with BGA openings) on the bottom =
side will bow the board during board fabrication. We are considering =
using soldermask rings around the BGA pads to mitigate =
bowing.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>QUESTION: what is the minimum width (o.d. minus i.d.) =
the soldermask ring can be and still perform its function</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Your collective insight and experience would be =
greatly appreciated!</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Best Regards,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Tom Ochenas</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Maxtek Components Corporation </FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Ken Patel [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]</A>]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 3:40 PM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: [log in to unmask]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: [TN] Looking for place who offer classes on =
ICT/DFT in Bay Area</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Guys,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Looking for a place in San Jose Bay Area where I can =
learn more about</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>ICT testing and fixturing, DFT rules, etc. I am a =
nonEE kind of guy and</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>have pretty good knowledge on DFM. Now a day, DFX =
knowledge is a real</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>plus.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Also, please recommend and good reference book on the =
subject.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>re,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>ken patel</FONT>
</P>
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Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 20:57:48 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: soldermask ring v. full coat for BGA design
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Hello Tom,
My that is an unusual request/requirement. .004 is the min I like, it can go
down to .003. Below that... I wouldn't trust it. Actually the "ring"
configuration you speak of is unique enough that I believe it will be
problematic. I would not do it.
As to the statement of board warping due to soldermask on one side; I
disagree. Soldermask, especially LPI is pretty friendy stuff relative to
warp. Unless there is some unusual condition of board thickness or finish,
one side solder mask will not warp a board.
Brad Saunders
Coretec Boston Office
781 858 0783
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Hello Tom,<BR>
<BR>
My that is an unusual request/requirement. .004 is the min I like, it can go down to .003. Below that... I wouldn't trust it. Actually the "ring" configuration you speak of is unique enough that I believe it will be problematic. I would not do it.<BR>
<BR>
As to the statement of board warping due to soldermask on one side; I disagree. Soldermask, especially LPI is pretty friendy stuff relative to warp. Unless there is some unusual condition of board thickness or finish, one side solder mask will not warp a board.<BR>
<BR>
Brad Saunders<BR>
Coretec Boston Office<BR>
781 858 0783</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 10:26:43 +0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
fullname <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: fullname <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: DSO National Laboratories
Subject: Coating thickness
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IPC-A-610C section 9.1.3 mentioned the following coating thickness :
Type AR Acrylic resin 0.03 - 0.13mm
Type ER Epoxy resin 0.03 - 0.13mm
Type UR Urethane resin 0.03 - 0.13mm
Type SR Silicon resin 0.05 - 0.21mm
Type XY Paraxlyene resin 0.01 - 0.05mm
Questions asked on behalf of my colleague are :
1. How does one arrive at the coating thickness for each types of
coating material?
2. What is the impact to my board or components if my coating thickness
exceed or below the range stated above?
Regards - Wee Mei
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Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 21:30:18 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Jack C. Olson" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Jack C. Olson" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ASSY: Component Polarity
X-To: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Yeah, even my own mental image of Caterpillar is a farmer sittin' on a
tractor, but this day and age we have high resolution displays and GPS
systems and operators sitting in soundprooof environmental chambers with
5-speaker stereo systems, computerized maintenance records and emission
control, etc etc etc.
In the new millenium there's a lot more to tractors than a choke pull...
seeya,
Jack
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
30May2002 08:42 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
"Jack C. Olson" <[log in to unmask]>
cc:
Subject: Re: ASSY: Component Polarity
Retain Until: 06/29/2002 Retention Category: G90 - Information and Reports
Caterpillar Confidential: Green
Jack,
I did some auto and other off road work before. I never had a problem with
board sizes being so small or dense.
First, just out of curiosity, I can't imaging a CAT needing such tight
packaging but you have your reasons. Shaving small pads can cause some
problems on like 0402's and smaller but, again, I can't imagine you needing
to go there. I just have a mental block.
Pad extensions or spurs, can work but cut into vital real estate you have
none of, obviously. I guess all I have are questions about size and how it
matters so much here especially when used in some of the most ruggedized
designs and product on the planet. I just see reliability issues written
all
over this.
Please tell us more,
Earl Moon
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Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 23:27:16 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: ASSY: Component Polarity
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="part1_6a.20b02aef.2a284794_boundary"
--part1_6a.20b02aef.2a284794_boundary
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Absolutely Jack! I'm afraid that people don't know how high-tech farming has
actually become. It's not just plowing dirt, and throwing some seeds out...
There's contour plowing and planting that uses GPS to reduce erosion,
satellite imaging to understand weather patterns and rainfall, and
understanding soil productivity in order to understand how to sequence
certain crops to best utilize the nutrients in the soil. Then you need to
understand when you need to add supplemental nutrients (fertilizers,
minerals, etc..) at the proper times so to meet whatever the meads of
whatever you're growing...
We all build electronics, but the modern-day farmer, is faced with the same
sort of technical challenge that we are faced with when building electronic
products. Big difference is, that people don't eat motherboards...at least
most don't, that I know of anyway.
That head of lettuce, bunch of carrots, or bag of potatoes, that all of us
buy everyday, are taken for granted...
-Steve Gregory-
> Yeah, even my own mental image of Caterpillar is a farmer sittin' on a
> tractor, but this day and age we have high resolution displays and GPS
> systems and operators sitting in soundprooof environmental chambers with
> 5-speaker stereo systems, computerized maintenance records and emission
> control, etc etc etc.
> In the new millenium there's a lot more to tractors than a choke pull...
>
> seeya,
> Jack
>
--part1_6a.20b02aef.2a284794_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>Absolutely Jack! I'm afraid that people don't know how high-tech farming has actually become. It's not just plowing dirt, and throwing some seeds out...<BR>
<BR>
There's contour plowing and planting that uses GPS to reduce erosion, satellite imaging to understand weather patterns and rainfall, and understanding soil productivity in order to understand how to sequence certain crops to best utilize the nutrients in the soil. Then you need to understand when you need to add supplemental nutrients (fertilizers, minerals, etc..) at the proper times so to meet whatever the meads of whatever you're growing...<BR>
<BR>
We all build electronics, but the modern-day farmer, is faced with the same sort of technical challenge that we are faced with when building electronic products. Big difference is, that people don't eat motherboards...at least most don't, that I know of anyway.<BR>
<BR>
That head of lettuce, bunch of carrots, or bag of potatoes, that all of us buy everyday, are taken for granted...<BR>
<BR>
-Steve Gregory-<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Yeah, even my own mental image of Caterpillar is a farmer sittin' on a<BR>
tractor, but this day and age we have high resolution displays and GPS<BR>
systems and operators sitting in soundprooof environmental chambers with<BR>
5-speaker stereo systems, computerized maintenance records and emission<BR>
control, etc etc etc.<BR>
In the new millenium there's a lot more to tractors than a choke pull...<BR>
<BR>
seeya,<BR>
Jack<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_6a.20b02aef.2a284794_boundary--
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Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 21:41:40 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
David Douthit <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: David Douthit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Coating thickness
X-To: fullname <[log in to unmask]>
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Wee Mei
The answer to these questions are rather complex.
I suggest that you contact the IPC and order the new
conformal coating handbook IPC-HDBK-830.
It is in the final approval stage and can answer your
question and many many others you might have.
David A. Douthit
Manager
LoCan LLC.
fullname wrote:
> IPC-A-610C section 9.1.3 mentioned the following coating thickness :
> Type AR Acrylic resin 0.03 - 0.13mm
> Type ER Epoxy resin 0.03 - 0.13mm
> Type UR Urethane resin 0.03 - 0.13mm
> Type SR Silicon resin 0.05 - 0.21mm
> Type XY Paraxlyene resin 0.01 - 0.05mm
>
> Questions asked on behalf of my colleague are :
> 1. How does one arrive at the coating thickness for each types of
> coating material?
> 2. What is the impact to my board or components if my coating thickness
> exceed or below the range stated above?
>
> Regards - Wee Mei
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 23:52:33 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ASSY: Component Polarity
X-To: [log in to unmask]
Jeez Steve,
Didn't know you knew farming so well. Must be that NC upbringing. I spent a
year on my grand daddy's pretty big farm way back in my 3rd grade. Really
saw farming up close and in person with my uncle's approach to a then non
science as he used a mule and a single plow to do 40 acres in about 2 days.
I stay, when in the mid-west, on my best friends plot out in Michigan.
Amazing how people there have "tamed" the land by eliminating what
essentially always have been swamps. The whole state really is underwater
but constantly being drained as it has been for hundreds of years - much
like Florida.
Farming technology in MI ranges from endless weekend lawn mowing by
"gentlemen" farmers having bought way too much land, while working for auto
makers, and brand new Ford tractors, costing way more than their "duelies,"
with all the options - to serious folks trying to stay alive in the
agribusiness on small plots. All the while, the small farmer goes under,
their land goes up for sale to developers, gentlemen farmers move in, and/or
larger operations buy them out.
As I travel constantly, it seems, over this land, it amazes me the
technology of which you speak Steve. It certainly would amaze the old Roman
folks practicing latifunda (huge government supervised farms, for lack of
better terms) just as it does me. The tractors are imense and the things
they tow to effect soil conservation and enrichment are equally amazing, and
new stuff is apparent each time I venture out cross country to my next job.
Still, I have to wonder how we can get so much stuff in a cell phone or new
avionics package and not do well with modern farm or other off road
equipment. I just don't understand why we can design, package, and identify
parts in all these technical marvels and not be able to do it in huge pieces
of farm equipment (no criticism intended - just wondering). Another thing
bothers me. What about test points? Is there any room for them?
Earl
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 08:10:26 +0200
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Gaby Bogdan <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Gaby Bogdan <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: NTC - The Gregory's are a team now...
X-To: [log in to unmask]
MIME-version: 1.0
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How small the world is!
We are here also under the Damocles Sword, and each time our boss goes to a
meeting with the bosses of Sanmina-SCI we fear that it will happen to us.
Gaby
----- Original Message -----
From: <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 1:14 AM
Subject: [TN] NTC - The Gregory's are a team now...
> Just something I'd like to let you all know, Jason Gregory has joined us
at
> LaBarge, after suffering the abrupt closure by Sanmina of the plant he
worked
> at in Austin, Texas...Earl is painfully aware of that.
>
> Really glad to have him join us! The rumor that we have going here is that
> he's my brother, cousin, etc...but we're not related...except in the
desire
> to do things right the first time.
>
> I'm really, really, glad he accepted the position!
>
> -Steve Gregory-
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 01:06:17 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: NTC - The Gregory's are a team now...
X-To: [log in to unmask]
Gaby, sorry to cut in here but the world is getting smaller as more jobs are
lost everyday. Steve spoke of my knowledge about immediate, drastic
dowhsizing relative to my having placed orders with SCI in Austin mostly
because Jason Gregory was there. Immedieately upon receipt of shipment, I
was notified of the plant closing and Jason's lost job, among many other
fine folks. I'm just thrilled Jason is working again and with someone of the
same family name and technical ability.
I now talk with over a dozen displaced folks who's talents and experience
are very well known and established. I do alright but not as well as last
year before the "crash" - pardon the awful expression. I just hope everyone
does well through this mess. I know you will as you are one of the best.
Could you tell me about your BGA rework experience here or off line. Was it
the process or part?
Best wishes,
Earl
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 08:03:54 +0200
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Karnwal, Pankaj" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Karnwal, Pankaj" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: fLUX RESIDUE IN NO CLEAN SOLDER WIRE
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Dear all
Some time we are facing a problem after hand soldering .
After wave solder soldering we puts some components like transformer,
connectors etc. ( Due to shortage of the components ) . We use the no clean
solder wire for hand soldering ,after soldering we observe that a
transparent flux residue appeared around the soldered lead and if we try to
clean it by IPA (ISO PROPYLE ALCOHALE) after drying, It will change in to
white residue and create bigger problem.After cleaning all, the surface of
PCB and solder joints get dull shining.
Pls. suggest the better way to clean
Thanks
With regards
Pankaj Karnwal
Quality Assurance
BESL NOIDA (INDIA)
PH .91-120-4420394-5 EXTN.211
e mail : <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Barco, innovators in image processing
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 07:45:19 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Steve Owen <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Steve Owen <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: fLUX RESIDUE IN NO CLEAN SOLDER WIRE
X-To: "Karnwal, Pankaj" <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi Pankaj,
Why are you cleaning no clean solder wire ?.
Regards
Steve.
-----Original Message-----
From: Karnwal, Pankaj [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 31 May 2002 07:04
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] fLUX RESIDUE IN NO CLEAN SOLDER WIRE
Dear all
Some time we are facing a problem after hand soldering .
After wave solder soldering we puts some components like transformer,
connectors etc. ( Due to shortage of the components ) . We use the no clean
solder wire for hand soldering ,after soldering we observe that a
transparent flux residue appeared around the soldered lead and if we try to
clean it by IPA (ISO PROPYLE ALCOHALE) after drying, It will change in to
white residue and create bigger problem.After cleaning all, the surface of
PCB and solder joints get dull shining.
Pls. suggest the better way to clean
Thanks
With regards
Pankaj Karnwal
Quality Assurance
BESL NOIDA (INDIA)
PH .91-120-4420394-5 EXTN.211
e mail : <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Barco, innovators in image processing
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 09:05:32 +0100
Reply-To: Phil Kinner <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Phil Kinner <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Concoat Ltd
Subject: Re: Coating thickness
X-To: fullname <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0029_01C20882.516C06C0"
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Wee Mei,
Many people use a flat coupon, without components, to gauge the =
thickness they are putting down, using a micrometer, eddy current meter =
or similar. This is only an approximation and can be used for =
repeatability / process control. We perform this as standard before =
each coating job.
It is actually very difficult to measure the thickness of coating on a =
board due to the effects of the various contours and capillary forces at =
work. People have used optical inspection equipment, but I suspect this =
is overkill and beyond the reach of most.
As for the thickness issue, if you put down less than the stated =
minimum, you have to ask yourself whether your coating operation makes =
any sense - you have too little coating to afford any real protection, =
so what have you gained? If you have too great a thickness, you run the =
risk of damaging component integrity, due to mechanical stresses and =
strains, particularly during heating/cooling cycles.
IMHO it is difficult to exceed the stated thickness, except with =
solventless 100% solids materials and some selective coating machines. =
On a flat coupon, aim to be right in the middle of the spec, and you =
probably won't exceed the max thickness in a run or the minimum in a =
"bare" spot caused by capillary.
I hope of some use,
Best Regards,
Phil Kinner
Chief Chemist
Please note that Concoat has recently acquired the former Multicore =
SPCID business. For more information, please visit our new web site =
www.concoatsystems.com=20
=20
Concoat Ltd
Alasan House, Albany Park,=20
Camberley, Surrey, GU16 7PH
=20
Tel: +44 (0) 1276 691100
Fax: +44 (0) 1276 691227
Attention: This message is for the named person's use only. It may =
contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information. No =
confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any mistransmission. =
If you receive this message in error, please immediately delete it and =
all copies of it from your system, destroy any hard copies of it =
securely and notify the sender. You must not, directly or indirectly, =
use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if =
you are not the intended recipient. Concoat Ltd and any of its =
subsidiaries each reserve the right to monitor all e-mail communications =
through its networks.
Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, =
except where th
----- Original Message -----=20
From: fullname=20
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 3:26 AM
Subject: [TN] Coating thickness
IPC-A-610C section 9.1.3 mentioned the following coating thickness :
Type AR Acrylic resin 0.03 - 0.13mm
Type ER Epoxy resin 0.03 - 0.13mm
Type UR Urethane resin 0.03 - 0.13mm
Type SR Silicon resin 0.05 - 0.21mm
Type XY Paraxlyene resin 0.01 - 0.05mm
Questions asked on behalf of my colleague are :
1. How does one arrive at the coating thickness for each types of
coating material?
2. What is the impact to my board or components if my coating =
thickness
exceed or below the range stated above?
Regards - Wee Mei
=
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[log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest
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http://listserv.ipc.org/archives
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Wee Mei,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Many people use a flat =
coupon,=20
without components, to gauge the thickness they are putting down, using =
a=20
micrometer, eddy current meter or similar. This is only an=20
approximation and can be used for repeatability / process control. =
We=20
perform this as standard before each coating job.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>It is actually very =
difficult to=20
measure the thickness of coating on a board due to the effects of the =
various=20
contours and capillary forces at work. People have used optical =
inspection=20
equipment, but I suspect this is overkill and beyond the reach of=20
most.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>As for the thickness =
issue, if you=20
put down less than the stated minimum, you have to ask yourself whether =
your=20
coating operation makes any sense - you have too little coating to =
afford any=20
real protection, so what have you gained? If you have too =
great a=20
thickness, you run the risk of damaging component integrity, due to =
mechanical=20
stresses and strains, particularly during heating/cooling =
cycles.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>IMHO it is difficult to =
exceed the=20
stated thickness, except with solventless 100% solids materials and some =
selective coating machines. On a flat coupon, aim to be right in =
the=20
middle of the spec, and you probably won't exceed the max thickness in a =
run or=20
the minimum in a "bare" spot caused by capillary.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I hope of some =
use,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Best =
Regards,</FONT></DIV><FONT=20
face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>
<DIV><BR>Phil Kinner</DIV>
<DIV>Chief Chemist</DIV>
<DIV></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Please note that Concoat has recently acquired the former Multicore =
SPCID=20
business. For more information, please visit our new web site <A=20
href=3D"http://www.concoatsystems.com">www.concoatsystems.com</A>=20
<BR> <BR>Concoat Ltd<BR>Alasan House, Albany Park, <BR>Camberley, =
Surrey,=20
GU16 7PH<BR> <BR>Tel: +44 (0) 1276 691100<BR>Fax: +44 (0) 1276=20
691227<BR>Attention: This message is for the named person's use only. It =
may=20
contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information. No=20
confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any mistransmission. =
If you=20
receive this message in error, please immediately delete it and all =
copies of it=20
from your system, destroy any hard copies of it securely and notify the =
sender.=20
You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, =
or copy=20
any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. Concoat =
Ltd and=20
any of its subsidiaries each reserve the right to monitor all e-mail=20
communications through its networks.<BR>Any views expressed in this =
message are=20
those of the individual sender, except where th</DIV>
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style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
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<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A [log in to unmask] =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">fullname</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A [log in to unmask]
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, May 31, 2002 3:26 =
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [TN] Coating =
thickness</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>IPC-A-610C section 9.1.3 mentioned the following =
coating=20
thickness :<BR>Type AR Acrylic resin 0.03 - =
0.13mm<BR>Type=20
ER Epoxy resin 0.03 - 0.13mm<BR>Type UR Urethane=20
resin 0.03 - 0.13mm<BR>Type SR Silicon=20
resin 0.05 - 0.21mm<BR>Type XY Paraxlyene=20
resin 0.01 - 0.05mm<BR><BR>Questions asked on behalf =
of my=20
colleague are :<BR>1. How does one arrive at the coating thickness for =
each=20
types of<BR>coating material?<BR>2. What is the impact to my board or=20
components if my coating thickness<BR>exceed or below the range stated =
above?<BR><BR>Regards - Wee=20
=
Mei<BR><BR>--------------------------------------------------------------=
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 09:08:15 +0100
Reply-To: Phil Kinner <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Phil Kinner <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Concoat Ltd
Subject: Re: Reflow Oven Recommendations
X-To: "Mcmaster, Michael" <[log in to unmask]>
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Reflow Oven RecommendationsMichael,
The vapour phase thread recently posted might prove useful to you in =
this application..
Contact us offline if you would like more information.
Best Regards,
Phil Kinner
Chief Chemist
Please note that Concoat has recently acquired the former Multicore =
SPCID business. For more information, please visit our new web site =
www.concoatsystems.com=20
=20
Concoat Ltd
Alasan House, Albany Park,=20
Camberley, Surrey, GU16 7PH
=20
Tel: +44 (0) 1276 691100
Fax: +44 (0) 1276 691227
Attention: This message is for the named person's use only. It may =
contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information. No =
confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any mistransmission. =
If you receive this message in error, please immediately delete it and =
all copies of it from your system, destroy any hard copies of it =
securely and notify the sender. You must not, directly or indirectly, =
use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if =
you are not the intended recipient. Concoat Ltd and any of its =
subsidiaries each reserve the right to monitor all e-mail communications =
through its networks.
Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, =
except where th
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Mcmaster, Michael=20
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 12:37 AM
Subject: [TN] Reflow Oven Recommendations
I am on a team that is looking at options for a reflow oven to attach =
heat sinks to printed circuit boards with lead-free solders. I'm =
interested in your unbiased (or even biased) opinions on oven types and =
manufacturers for this type of application. Feel free to contact me =
off-line if you feel more comfortable. Thanks in advance for your =
responses.
Mike McMaster=20
RF Product Engineer=20
Merix Corporation=20
Forest Grove OR=20
503-992-4263=20
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<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Reflow Oven Recommendations</TITLE>
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Michael,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>The vapour phase thread =
recently=20
posted might prove useful to you in this application..</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Contact us offline if =
you would like=20
more information.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Best =
Regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Phil =
Kinner</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Chief =
Chemist</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Please note that Concoat has recently acquired the former Multicore =
SPCID=20
business. For more information, please visit our new web site <A=20
href=3D"http://www.concoatsystems.com">www.concoatsystems.com</A>=20
<BR> <BR>Concoat Ltd<BR>Alasan House, Albany Park, <BR>Camberley, =
Surrey,=20
GU16 7PH<BR> <BR>Tel: +44 (0) 1276 691100<BR>Fax: +44 (0) 1276=20
691227<BR>Attention: This message is for the named person's use only. It =
may=20
contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information. No=20
confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any mistransmission. =
If you=20
receive this message in error, please immediately delete it and all =
copies of it=20
from your system, destroy any hard copies of it securely and notify the =
sender.=20
You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, =
or copy=20
any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. Concoat =
Ltd and=20
any of its subsidiaries each reserve the right to monitor all e-mail=20
communications through its networks.<BR>Any views expressed in this =
message are=20
those of the individual sender, except where th</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
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<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A [log in to unmask] =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">Mcmaster,=20
Michael</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A [log in to unmask]
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, May 31, 2002 =
12:37 AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [TN] Reflow Oven=20
Recommendations</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I am on a team that is looking at =
options for a=20
reflow oven to attach heat sinks to printed circuit boards with =
lead-free=20
solders. I'm interested in your unbiased (or even biased) =
opinions on=20
oven types and manufacturers for this type of application. Feel =
free to=20
contact me off-line if you feel more comfortable. Thanks in =
advance for=20
your responses.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif" size=3D2>Mike McMaster</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
face=3D"MS Sans Serif" size=3D2>RF Product Engineer</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
face=3D"MS Sans Serif" size=3D2>Merix Corporation </FONT><BR><FONT=20
face=3D"MS Sans Serif" size=3D2>Forest Grove OR</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
face=3D"MS Sans Serif" size=3D2>503-992-4263</FONT> =
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 11:56:58 +0300
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Brian Ellis <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Brian Ellis <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: fLUX RESIDUE IN NO CLEAN SOLDER WIRE
X-To: "Karnwal, Pankaj" <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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The whole notion of "no-clean" fluxes is that you do not need to clean
them: it's as simple as that. IPA is not, in any case, a good solvent
for flux residues. The combination you state will almost inevitably
produce the results you observe. If you think you need to clean after
hand soldering, the first question to ask is, "Why clean?" (
http://www.protonique.com/plcom/files/whycl.htm ). If you then decide
you must clean, you must then examine the flux and cleaning chemistry
and processes as an ensemble and not as four separate items, to put the
best chances on your side.
Brian
"Karnwal, Pankaj" wrote:
>
> Dear all
>
> Some time we are facing a problem after hand soldering .
>
> After wave solder soldering we puts some components like transformer,
> connectors etc. ( Due to shortage of the components ) . We use the no clean
> solder wire for hand soldering ,after soldering we observe that a
> transparent flux residue appeared around the soldered lead and if we try to
> clean it by IPA (ISO PROPYLE ALCOHALE) after drying, It will change in to
> white residue and create bigger problem.After cleaning all, the surface of
> PCB and solder joints get dull shining.
> Pls. suggest the better way to clean
> Thanks
>
> With regards
> Pankaj Karnwal
> Quality Assurance
> BESL NOIDA (INDIA)
> PH .91-120-4420394-5 EXTN.211
> e mail : <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Barco, innovators in image processing
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 07:09:23 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Sauer, Steven T." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Sauer, Steven T." <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
X-To: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I couldn't resist MoonMan but the technical term for this type of device
would be "Passive Fixed Bandwidth Filter Power Amplifier without coupling".
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 07:30:19 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Randy Bock Sr." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Randy Bock Sr." <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
X-To: "Bloomquist, Ken" <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Good shot....
----- Original Message -----
From: Bloomquist, Ken <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 4:15 PM
Subject: Re: [TN] Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
> I think I now know why that guy was wanting that 4'X 8' PWB, a new cell
> phone add on that will positively give it better reception ;-)
>
> OK, I'm done!
>
> KennyB
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Earl Moon [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>
> Come on, let's really come up with a better receptor for TV or phone
devices
> that really work.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 08:30:30 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Phil Nutting <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Phil Nutting <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ASSY: Component Polarity
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Chuckling, a GPS in a Cat? I'm living in the Dark Ages. I don't even =
have a CD player in my car.
Phil
-----Original Message-----
From: Jack C. Olson [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 10:30 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] ASSY: Component Polarity
Yeah, even my own mental image of Caterpillar is a farmer sittin' on a
tractor, but this day and age we have high resolution displays and GPS
systems and operators sitting in soundprooof environmental chambers with
5-speaker stereo systems, computerized maintenance records and emission
control, etc etc etc.
In the new millenium there's a lot more to tractors than a choke pull...
seeya,
Jack
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
30May2002 08:42 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
"Jack C. Olson" <[log in to unmask]>
cc:
Subject: Re: ASSY: Component Polarity
Retain Until: 06/29/2002 Retention Category: G90 - Information and =
Reports
Caterpillar Confidential: Green
Jack,
I did some auto and other off road work before. I never had a problem =
with
board sizes being so small or dense.
First, just out of curiosity, I can't imaging a CAT needing such tight
packaging but you have your reasons. Shaving small pads can cause some
problems on like 0402's and smaller but, again, I can't imagine you =
needing
to go there. I just have a mental block.
Pad extensions or spurs, can work but cut into vital real estate you =
have
none of, obviously. I guess all I have are questions about size and how =
it
matters so much here especially when used in some of the most ruggedized
designs and product on the planet. I just see reliability issues written
all
over this.
Please tell us more,
Earl Moon
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 08:36:59 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Graham Collins <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Graham Collins <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Hey Doug
I have to disagree with you somewhat. Tools made today are wider in range =
than what was available 25 years ago, and the cheaper ones are indeed =
smaller and lighter, and won't be lasting 25 years. But the good ones are =
a lot better than what was available 25 years ago. Motors are smaller for =
the same amount of power, and there is a proper use for plastic in power =
tools. In fact - I've got a Makita jig saw that turns 25 this year and is =
almost entirely cased in plastic. And that sucker gets some serious =
abuse, having been dropped many times, and used very hard. An industry =
where you get what you pay for.=20
Cell phones on the other hand are a much different beast - more of a =
fashion statement / cool gizmo than a tool. When was the last time you =
saw an ad for a new cordless drill that comes with different color cover =
plates to match your coveralls??? When was the last time you bought =
some lumber and had them throw in a circular saw "free"??? =20
But don't get me started on SUVs. =20
Have a good weekend!
regards
Graham Collins
Process Engineer,=20
Northrop Grumman
Atlantic Facility of Litton Systems Canada
(902) 873-2000 ext 6215
>>> [log in to unmask] 05/30/02 05:23PM >>>
Good afternoon all,
I have been watching this thread with some amusement. I have an alternate
theory on why these scams work, other than human gullibility. How many of
us have seen performance sacrifices in the name of cost engineering, or to
make a product X% lighter, Y% smaller, etc? Look at some of the power
tools of the 60s (big honkin' hunks of metal) and those of today
(plastics). Tools are cheaper today (relatively speaking) and lighter, =
but
they won't last 25 years like before. In terms of the cell phone =
antennas,
you could make antennas that would pick up conversations on other
continents, but you wouldn't want to carry it around and probably would =
not
want to pay for it. The price for that ever so chic small cell phone is
diminished reception. Unless you are an RF engineer, you don't have the
technical background to make the call, but we all know that companies =
don't
build em the way they used to. In addition, look at the secondary =
products
markets that offer you items that the OEMs did not include in the base
package to make it cheap enough to get on your radar? The secondary
products industry is booming for this reason. I would bet we could all
look at our products and see some similar shortcuts made in the name of
cost engineering.
Well, except for Rockwell Collins of course..............
Doug Pauls
Rockwell Collins
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 13:36:35 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Hinners Hans M Civ WRALC/LUGE <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Hinners Hans M Civ WRALC/LUGE <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Coating thickness
X-To: fullname <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi Wee Mei,
To echo what others have already said.
Your colleague can also check the manufacturer's coating thickness
recommendation for a specific product. (I'm sure that's where IPC-A-610 got
the numbers.)
I strongly recommend staying within the acceptable range. My personal
preference is to target slightly higher than the middle of the spec., if the
range is broad enough. I've run into problems, on the processing side, when
someone specified well above the max. and we had hideous solvent retention.
Folks using conformal coating as a potting compound are not my friends.
Hans
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hans M. Hinners
Electronics Engineer
Warner Robins - Air Logistics Center (WR-ALC/LUGE)
226 Cochran Street
Robins AFB GA 31098-1622
mailto:[log in to unmask]
Com: (478) 926 - 5224
Fax: (478) 926 - 4911
DSN Prefix: 468
-----Original Message-----
From: fullname [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 10:27 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Coating thickness
IPC-A-610C section 9.1.3 mentioned the following coating thickness :
Type AR Acrylic resin 0.03 - 0.13mm
Type ER Epoxy resin 0.03 - 0.13mm
Type UR Urethane resin 0.03 - 0.13mm
Type SR Silicon resin 0.05 - 0.21mm
Type XY Paraxlyene resin 0.01 - 0.05mm
Questions asked on behalf of my colleague are :
1. How does one arrive at the coating thickness for each types of
coating material?
2. What is the impact to my board or components if my coating thickness
exceed or below the range stated above?
Regards - Wee Mei
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 07:44:49 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Gary Camac <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Gary Camac <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Dickey-john Corp.
Subject: Re: ESD and equipment isolation
X-To: Guy Ramsey <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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When possible, we have always used GFI for 120V based table top production and test equipment. This is
accomplished by having a GFI breaker for the production benches. I understand that GFI for 240/480 is
either unreliable or unavailable. We had an old Contact Systems CS-400 that was 120V but could never
GFI the line because something (good filtering - leaky power supply caps?) would keep tripping the
breaker.
Gary Camac
Guy Ramsey wrote:
> The only danger I see is injection of unwanted potential into the mat. A GFI
> (Ground Fault Interrupt) on the equipment circuit would eliminate that
> possibility and is a good practice anyway. "Common" ground in some old
> factories may have significant voltage potential. The GFI will trip under
> those conditions, drive maintenance crazy for a little while, but it will
> prevent EOS damage caused by the conditions that your old policy attempts to
> prevent.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Jim Jenkins
> > Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 2:26 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: [TN] ESD and equipment isolation
> >
> >
> > Hi everybody,
> >
> > One of our internal specifications states that processing
> > equipment needs to
> > be "electrically isolated" from the static dissipative mat. We are
> > interpreting this to mean that if the equipment has a metal case it is not
> > allowed to be in contact with the mat. There has been some
> > controversy over
> > this, because we have whole areas and labs that have test equipment and
> > other items that do not have the little feet on the bottom and
> > make contact
> > with the mat.
> >
> > We have people arguing on both sides here. Some say that the contact
> > provides a direct path to ground taking out the resistance needed to slow
> > down the discharge. I say that the dissipative (rather than conductive)
> > nature of the mat provides the necessary resistance. That is why
> > resistors
> > are no longer required in ESD specifications.
> >
> > Others say that the equipment can inject electrical energy through the mat
> > into the ESDS devices.
> >
> > What do you all think?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Jim Jenkins
> >
> > [log in to unmask]
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > ---------------
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> > 847-509-9700 ext.5315
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > ---------------
> >
>
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 07:51:40 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
X-To: [log in to unmask]
I do like it Steve. Hell, now I have a reason to buy and install one. As
thieves are not always too smart, I think the mastermind who came up with
this little scam missed a good bet by not using similar terminology.
MoonMan
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 07:57:24 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ASSY: Component Polarity
X-To: [log in to unmask]
Right on Phil,
I think farmer Steve, the instigator of this little diatribe laughing more
every minute, said it all concerning modern farming. Hell, I'd become a
farmer just to have one of those rigs and all that's in them plus not having
to worry about collision insurance.
My car had a CD player. Never used it and, to minimize break ins - a common
happening in my life along with very well guided bird doo, I took the thing
out. We'll see if that works for me. Farmers have no such worry, I suspect,
concerning break ins or theft. Some of those tractors are five stories tall,
or so it seems to me.
MoonMan
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 08:04:43 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
X-To: [log in to unmask]
Damn well said Graham, if I might butt in. Let's do get you started on
SUV's. Damn stupid car makers have really screwed up a good thing and really
hurt tire makers and themselves. Five billion dollar loss for Ford over it.
My opinion, counting for little I suspect, is all SUV makers should have
placed a placard on the dashboard warning idiot 90 MPH drivere, like the one
that took me out, not to drive over the speed limit or tires will go to hell
along, hopefully, with the ass---- driver. Those tires and wheels are way
too big for extended high speed driving. I like the 6 MPG figure for them as
well when driving that way.
MoonMan
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 09:14:37 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Guy Ramsey <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Guy Ramsey <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
X-To: "Randy Bock Sr." <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <005001c20896$8de1d760$0302a8c0@randy>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Okay, you guys sniffed it out. We are working on a combination cellular
antenna and inductive solar charger. Place the 4 by 8 sheet near your phone
and recieve local TV broadcasts as well as charge the battery.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Randy Bock Sr.
> Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 7:30 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
>
>
> Good shot....
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bloomquist, Ken <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 4:15 PM
> Subject: Re: [TN] Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
>
>
> > I think I now know why that guy was wanting that 4'X 8' PWB, a new cell
> > phone add on that will positively give it better reception ;-)
> >
> > OK, I'm done!
> >
> > KennyB
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Earl Moon [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> >
> > Come on, let's really come up with a better receptor for TV or phone
> devices
> > that really work.
> >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 08:20:43 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Mel Parrish <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Mel Parrish <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
X-To: "Sauer, Steven T." <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Steve
Imagine the TLA for that one! "PFBFPAWOC"
Guess that is a NLA
Mel Parrish
Director of Training
Soldering Technology International
102 Tribble Drive
Madison, AL 35758
256 705 5530
256 705 5538 Fax
[log in to unmask]
www.solderingtech.com
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Sauer, Steven T.
Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 6:09 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
I couldn't resist MoonMan but the technical term for this type of device
would be "Passive Fixed Bandwidth Filter Power Amplifier without coupling".
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 08:24:14 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
X-To: [log in to unmask]
If you really can master the technology, though it sounds very tough, I want
one or as many as I can get. Hell, I'll be your rep.
MoonMan
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 08:28:17 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
X-To: Mel Parrish <[log in to unmask]>
Personally, I'm offended by that remark. Don't know what it means is why.
What really bothers me is 1) why Steve started this; 2) why the CAT guy is
staying so mum (he was an instigator too); 3) why Jack hasn't put an end to
this and repremanded Steve for his fooling around with such a serious subject.
MoonMan (accepting no blame in all this fun with some very serious
overtones, of course)
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 16:27:52 +0200
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Gaby Bogdan <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Gaby Bogdan <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: NTC - The Gregory's are a team now...
X-To: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1255
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Dear Earl,
In our country there was a custom to work in the same place till pension.
This is because the size of the country and other factors.Young people don't
do it any more. I am dedicated to my workplace, spent my youth here, as many
others, and really love it.
I just know everybody, what we are capable of , and I am putting every
effort in improving myself and our image dayly. The problem is not our
possibilities, but the fact that customers are not easy to aquire. I hope
that we will continue to survive, our managers try hard. But we have here
also a bad political situation right now. And that adds to our fears.
Concerning BGA rework, we just bought a manual print station from GENRAD,
and try to overcome with it the coplanarity problems, as well as using it
for ceramic BGA's.
They have sent us a formula for the stencil apertures, and the user's
manual.
In the next few days we will have the opportunity to use it , as we got a
job for 100 parts replacement with new version components. I think that
printing paste on the part is easier, if bad ,you clean the part, not the
crcuit. What do you think?
Gaby
----- Original Message -----
From: "Earl Moon" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>; <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 8:06 AM
Subject: Re: NTC - The Gregory's are a team now...
> Gaby, sorry to cut in here but the world is getting smaller as more jobs
are
> lost everyday. Steve spoke of my knowledge about immediate, drastic
> dowhsizing relative to my having placed orders with SCI in Austin mostly
> because Jason Gregory was there. Immedieately upon receipt of shipment, I
> was notified of the plant closing and Jason's lost job, among many other
> fine folks. I'm just thrilled Jason is working again and with someone of
the
> same family name and technical ability.
>
> I now talk with over a dozen displaced folks who's talents and experience
> are very well known and established. I do alright but not as well as last
> year before the "crash" - pardon the awful expression. I just hope
everyone
> does well through this mess. I know you will as you are one of the best.
>
> Could you tell me about your BGA rework experience here or off line. Was
it
> the process or part?
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Earl
>
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 08:43:10 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: NTC - The Gregory's are a team now...
X-To: [log in to unmask]
Gaby,
Thanks first for the reply. Second, I do feel great empathy with your
situation and all the rest of us in this declining, so far, industry. It is
sad.
I like what you've done about the BGA situation. As we all know, many
plastic types are not properly constructed and problems are effected, as
unacceptable coplanarity, that are not easy to overcome. Also, I think
you're right on concerning paste on part application. Ceramics offer their
own set of problems but I'm sure you'll overcome them.
Best Wishes,
Earl
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 10:07:13 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Phil Nutting <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Phil Nutting <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
MIME-Version: 1.0
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6 MPG... I thought it was 6 gallons per mile!
-----Original Message-----
From: Earl Moon [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 9:05 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
Damn well said Graham, if I might butt in. Let's do get you started on
SUV's. Damn stupid car makers have really screwed up a good thing and =
really
hurt tire makers and themselves. Five billion dollar loss for Ford over =
it.
My opinion, counting for little I suspect, is all SUV makers should have
placed a placard on the dashboard warning idiot 90 MPH drivere, like the =
one
that took me out, not to drive over the speed limit or tires will go to =
hell
along, hopefully, with the ass---- driver. Those tires and wheels are =
way
too big for extended high speed driving. I like the 6 MPG figure for =
them as
well when driving that way.
MoonMan
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 08:18:59 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
rgrant <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: rgrant <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ASSY: Component Polarity
X-To: "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C208AE.1B009570"
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
------_=_NextPart_001_01C208AE.1B009570
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Now we are eating motherboards. ah, well digital cameras at least. They
are used by doctors to see your insides.
Ryan Grant
-----Original Message-----
From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 9:27 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] ASSY: Component Polarity
Absolutely Jack! I'm afraid that people don't know how high-tech farming has
actually become. It's not just plowing dirt, and throwing some seeds out...
There's contour plowing and planting that uses GPS to reduce erosion,
satellite imaging to understand weather patterns and rainfall, and
understanding soil productivity in order to understand how to sequence
certain crops to best utilize the nutrients in the soil. Then you need to
understand when you need to add supplemental nutrients (fertilizers,
minerals, etc..) at the proper times so to meet whatever the meads of
whatever you're growing...
We all build electronics, but the modern-day farmer, is faced with the same
sort of technical challenge that we are faced with when building electronic
products. Big difference is, that people don't eat motherboards...at least
most don't, that I know of anyway.
That head of lettuce, bunch of carrots, or bag of potatoes, that all of us
buy everyday, are taken for granted...
-Steve Gregory-
Yeah, even my own mental image of Caterpillar is a farmer sittin' on a
tractor, but this day and age we have high resolution displays and GPS
systems and operators sitting in soundprooof environmental chambers with
5-speaker stereo systems, computerized maintenance records and emission
control, etc etc etc.
In the new millenium there's a lot more to tractors than a choke pull...
seeya,
Jack
------_=_NextPart_001_01C208AE.1B009570
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 5.00.3105.105" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=829101614-31052002>Now we
are eating motherboards. ah, well digital cameras at least.
They are used by doctors to see your insides.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=829101614-31052002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=829101614-31052002>Ryan
Grant</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> [log in to unmask]
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, May 30, 2002 9:27
PM<BR><B>To:</B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [TN] ASSY: Component
Polarity<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=2>Absolutely
Jack! I'm afraid that people don't know how high-tech farming has actually
become. It's not just plowing dirt, and throwing some seeds
out...<BR><BR>There's contour plowing and planting that uses GPS to reduce
erosion, satellite imaging to understand weather patterns and rainfall, and
understanding soil productivity in order to understand how to sequence certain
crops to best utilize the nutrients in the soil. Then you need to understand
when you need to add supplemental nutrients (fertilizers, minerals, etc..) at
the proper times so to meet whatever the meads of whatever you're
growing...<BR><BR>We all build electronics, but the modern-day farmer, is faced
with the same sort of technical challenge that we are faced with when building
electronic products. Big difference is, that people don't eat motherboards...at
least most don't, that I know of anyway.<BR><BR>That head of lettuce, bunch of
carrots, or bag of potatoes, that all of us buy everyday, are taken for
granted...<BR><BR>-Steve Gregory-<BR><BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"
TYPE="CITE">Yeah, even my own mental image of Caterpillar is a farmer sittin'
on a<BR>tractor, but this day and age we have high resolution displays and
GPS<BR>systems and operators sitting in soundprooof environmental chambers
with<BR>5-speaker stereo systems, computerized maintenance records and
emission<BR>control, etc etc etc.<BR>In the new millenium there's a lot more
to tractors than a choke
pull...<BR><BR>seeya,<BR>Jack<BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML>
------_=_NextPart_001_01C208AE.1B009570--
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 10:43:57 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
James TerVeen <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: James TerVeen <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
X-To: Phil Nutting <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Ok, I have sat back on the SUV thing and need to complain. I have one and
have found that on long trips (never do I exceed the posted speed limit) I
have a much better MPG (around 22) than I do around town. I think it
is that big CAT that gets 6 GPM.
Phil Nutting
<PNutting@KAISERS To: [log in to unmask]
YSTEMS.COM> cc:
Sent by: TechNet Subject: Re: [TN] Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
<[log in to unmask]>
05/31/02 10:07 AM
Please respond to
"TechNet E-Mail
Forum."; Please
respond to Phil
Nutting
6 MPG... I thought it was 6 gallons per mile!
-----Original Message-----
From: Earl Moon [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 9:05 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
Damn well said Graham, if I might butt in. Let's do get you started on
SUV's. Damn stupid car makers have really screwed up a good thing and
really
hurt tire makers and themselves. Five billion dollar loss for Ford over it.
My opinion, counting for little I suspect, is all SUV makers should have
placed a placard on the dashboard warning idiot 90 MPH drivere, like the
one
that took me out, not to drive over the speed limit or tires will go to
hell
along, hopefully, with the ass---- driver. Those tires and wheels are way
too big for extended high speed driving. I like the 6 MPG figure for them
as
well when driving that way.
MoonMan
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 09:01:36 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: NTC - The Gregory's are a team now...
X-To: Gaby Bogdan <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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How bad is the coplanarity problem. I'm just waking up my thinking processes
and may, wonder of woners, have some ideas for the little Genrad
contraption.
Earl
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gaby Bogdan" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 8:27 AM
Subject: Re: [TN] NTC - The Gregory's are a team now...
> Dear Earl,
> In our country there was a custom to work in the same place till pension.
> This is because the size of the country and other factors.Young people
don't
> do it any more. I am dedicated to my workplace, spent my youth here, as
many
> others, and really love it.
> I just know everybody, what we are capable of , and I am putting every
> effort in improving myself and our image dayly. The problem is not our
> possibilities, but the fact that customers are not easy to aquire. I hope
> that we will continue to survive, our managers try hard. But we have here
> also a bad political situation right now. And that adds to our fears.
> Concerning BGA rework, we just bought a manual print station from GENRAD,
> and try to overcome with it the coplanarity problems, as well as using it
> for ceramic BGA's.
> They have sent us a formula for the stencil apertures, and the user's
> manual.
> In the next few days we will have the opportunity to use it , as we got a
> job for 100 parts replacement with new version components. I think that
> printing paste on the part is easier, if bad ,you clean the part, not the
> crcuit. What do you think?
> Gaby
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Earl Moon" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>; <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 8:06 AM
> Subject: Re: NTC - The Gregory's are a team now...
>
>
> > Gaby, sorry to cut in here but the world is getting smaller as more jobs
> are
> > lost everyday. Steve spoke of my knowledge about immediate, drastic
> > dowhsizing relative to my having placed orders with SCI in Austin mostly
> > because Jason Gregory was there. Immedieately upon receipt of shipment,
I
> > was notified of the plant closing and Jason's lost job, among many other
> > fine folks. I'm just thrilled Jason is working again and with someone of
> the
> > same family name and technical ability.
> >
> > I now talk with over a dozen displaced folks who's talents and
experience
> > are very well known and established. I do alright but not as well as
last
> > year before the "crash" - pardon the awful expression. I just hope
> everyone
> > does well through this mess. I know you will as you are one of the best.
> >
> > Could you tell me about your BGA rework experience here or off line. Was
> it
> > the process or part?
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Earl
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 09:05:47 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
X-To: Phil Nutting <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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How remiss of me not to know that. My hat's off to those high flying freaky
freeway folks out there and wish them well, though obviously not wealth at
that mileage reading. My hat's off to you as well young man for bringing
this important fact, among all the others expressed on this vital, to me,
subject.
Anyone working on a new mileage improvement gizmo? Hell, there's always
money in that and you know these things really work.
Enjoy,
Earl
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil Nutting" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 8:07 AM
Subject: Re: [TN] Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
6 MPG... I thought it was 6 gallons per mile!
-----Original Message-----
From: Earl Moon [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 9:05 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
Damn well said Graham, if I might butt in. Let's do get you started on
SUV's. Damn stupid car makers have really screwed up a good thing and really
hurt tire makers and themselves. Five billion dollar loss for Ford over it.
My opinion, counting for little I suspect, is all SUV makers should have
placed a placard on the dashboard warning idiot 90 MPH drivere, like the one
that took me out, not to drive over the speed limit or tires will go to hell
along, hopefully, with the ass---- driver. Those tires and wheels are way
too big for extended high speed driving. I like the 6 MPG figure for them as
well when driving that way.
MoonMan
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 11:11:40 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Rod Smith <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Rod Smith <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Rod Smith/Endicott/IBM is out of the office.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
I will be out of the office starting May 31, 2002 and will not return until
June 3, 2002.
I will respond to your message when I return.
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=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 10:06:44 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Econonic Boom
Well, the following convinces me. We simply need to fire more folks and
productivity goes up. A simple equation, what?
MoonMan
STRONGER DEMAND FOR CARS, computers, household appliances and machinery
helped to boost orders to factories, the Commerce Department reported
Friday. It was the fifth-straight monthly increase.
In another report, productivity, a key ingredient of the economy?s
long-term vitality, grew at an annual rate of 8.4 percent in the
January-March quarter as hard-pressed companies produced more with fewer
workers.
The latest batch of economic data shows a recovering economy,
including the manufacturing sector, which was hardest hit by last year?s
recession.
The Labor Department?s revised reading on productivity ? the amount
of output per hour of work ? was a bit weaker than the 8.6 percent rate of
increase previously reported for the quarter. But it still marked an
improvement over the strong 5.5 percent productivity growth rate posted in
the fourth quarter of 2001.
Advertisement
The big productivity gain in the first quarter came at a price.
Businesses, responding to the lingering effects of last year?s recession,
cut back on their payrolls. That caused the total number of hours worked to
fall at a rate 2.1 percent. Output rose at a rate of 6.1 percent.
In the factory-orders report, gains were broad based. The 1.2 percent
rise was the biggest since a 7.5 percent advance in October.
In the long run, productivity gains are good for workers, for the
economy and for companies, whose profits took a hit during the slump.
Gains in productivity allow companies to pay workers more without
raising prices, which would eat up those wage gains. And, productivity gains
permit the economy to grow faster without trigger inflation. If productivity
falters, however, pressure for higher wages could force companies to raise
prices, thus worsening inflation.
The 8.4 percent rise in productivity in the first quarter marked the
biggest increase since the second quarter of 1983.
The rise in productivity helped to push down unit labor costs, a
gauge of inflation. Unit labor costs declined at an annual rate of 5.2
percent in the first quarter, a slightly smaller drop than the 5.4 percent
reported a month ago. Still, the latest number is an improvement over the
3.1 percent rate of decline in unit labor costs seen in the fourth quarter.
In general, productivity tends to rise strongly when the economy is
booming. But gains in productivity can become weak or productivity can fall
when the economy slows or contracts.
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 10:12:09 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
X-To: [log in to unmask]
Very good input. Suprised more SUVer's haven't come forth. Of course there
are SUV's and there not quite SUV's. My vote is for the big ones and their
mileage not approaching that of a Honda type ride.
I know on the autobon, there used to be no speed limit. Here we have a few
but rarely enforced. Hell, there's a stretch of highway out here in Montana
city (right through its middle) that has side entries on the way to Glacier.
Better watch out here as everyone drives 80 just to stay alive, or not, and
get there before all the other tourists.
MoonMan
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 18:28:59 +0200
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Gaby Bogdan <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Gaby Bogdan <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: NTC - The Gregory's are a team now...
X-To: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1255
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
I did not measure it. But corner balls were oblong or not soldered (when
using only flux).
X-ray showed also not soldered balls (round, with circuit pad intact) among
elliptic ones which were soldered. Usually when I see an elliptic shape or
almost a cylindric shape I know that in that area the BGA is higher . When
between two such contacts I see a round one, I know that there is no
contact. I hope that with the Genrad BGA print station we will overcome
this problem, if better profiling is not possible. We don't have spare
boards, each one is very expensive. And no time to play, delivery is
Yesterday. I also think that some of the BGA's beside of the ceramics have
non eutectic balls, Information is hard to get from the supplier. Also,
although Solder paste may induce voiding, I prefer to see acceptable voids-a
sign that the melting took place. With flux only you never get voids
because the component balls don't have any, but you can't be sure if you
reflowed them or not unless they change shape.
Gaby
----- Original Message -----
From: "Earl Moon" <[log in to unmask]>
To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>; "Gaby Bogdan"
<[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 5:01 PM
Subject: Re: Re: [TN] NTC - The Gregory's are a team now...
> How bad is the coplanarity problem. I'm just waking up my thinking
processes
> and may, wonder of woners, have some ideas for the little Genrad
> contraption.
>
> Earl
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gaby Bogdan" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 8:27 AM
> Subject: Re: [TN] NTC - The Gregory's are a team now...
>
>
> > Dear Earl,
> > In our country there was a custom to work in the same place till
pension.
> > This is because the size of the country and other factors.Young people
> don't
> > do it any more. I am dedicated to my workplace, spent my youth here, as
> many
> > others, and really love it.
> > I just know everybody, what we are capable of , and I am putting every
> > effort in improving myself and our image dayly. The problem is not our
> > possibilities, but the fact that customers are not easy to aquire. I
hope
> > that we will continue to survive, our managers try hard. But we have
here
> > also a bad political situation right now. And that adds to our fears.
> > Concerning BGA rework, we just bought a manual print station from
GENRAD,
> > and try to overcome with it the coplanarity problems, as well as using
it
> > for ceramic BGA's.
> > They have sent us a formula for the stencil apertures, and the user's
> > manual.
> > In the next few days we will have the opportunity to use it , as we got
a
> > job for 100 parts replacement with new version components. I think that
> > printing paste on the part is easier, if bad ,you clean the part, not
the
> > crcuit. What do you think?
> > Gaby
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Earl Moon" <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: <[log in to unmask]>; <[log in to unmask]>
> > Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 8:06 AM
> > Subject: Re: NTC - The Gregory's are a team now...
> >
> >
> > > Gaby, sorry to cut in here but the world is getting smaller as more
jobs
> > are
> > > lost everyday. Steve spoke of my knowledge about immediate, drastic
> > > dowhsizing relative to my having placed orders with SCI in Austin
mostly
> > > because Jason Gregory was there. Immedieately upon receipt of
shipment,
> I
> > > was notified of the plant closing and Jason's lost job, among many
other
> > > fine folks. I'm just thrilled Jason is working again and with someone
of
> > the
> > > same family name and technical ability.
> > >
> > > I now talk with over a dozen displaced folks who's talents and
> experience
> > > are very well known and established. I do alright but not as well as
> last
> > > year before the "crash" - pardon the awful expression. I just hope
> > everyone
> > > does well through this mess. I know you will as you are one of the
best.
> > >
> > > Could you tell me about your BGA rework experience here or off line.
Was
> > it
> > > the process or part?
> > >
> > > Best wishes,
> > >
> > > Earl
> > >
> >
>
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>
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> >
>
>
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 11:57:33 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Kasprzak, Bill (sys) USX" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Kasprzak, Bill (sys) USX" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhances...NTC
X-To: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Earl,
Haven't you seen the TV ad where you install this gadget into your incoming
air intake for your car that improves gas mileage by creating a vortex or
tornadic flow. Let's see if anyone tried that one.
I hate SUV's. Whatever happened to the energy crisis? Back in '73 they said
we only had 20 years of oil left. That was 8 years ago.
Bill Kasprzak
Moog Inc. Manufacturing Engineering, Electronics
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Earl Moon [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 11:06 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
>
> How remiss of me not to know that. My hat's off to those high flying
> freaky
> freeway folks out there and wish them well, though obviously not wealth at
> that mileage reading. My hat's off to you as well young man for bringing
> this important fact, among all the others expressed on this vital, to me,
> subject.
>
> Anyone working on a new mileage improvement gizmo? Hell, there's always
> money in that and you know these things really work.
>
> Enjoy,
>
> Earl
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Phil Nutting" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 8:07 AM
> Subject: Re: [TN] Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
>
>
> 6 MPG... I thought it was 6 gallons per mile!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Earl Moon [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 9:05 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
>
>
> Damn well said Graham, if I might butt in. Let's do get you started on
> SUV's. Damn stupid car makers have really screwed up a good thing and
> really
> hurt tire makers and themselves. Five billion dollar loss for Ford over
> it.
>
> My opinion, counting for little I suspect, is all SUV makers should have
> placed a placard on the dashboard warning idiot 90 MPH drivere, like the
> one
> that took me out, not to drive over the speed limit or tires will go to
> hell
> along, hopefully, with the ass---- driver. Those tires and wheels are way
> too big for extended high speed driving. I like the 6 MPG figure for them
> as
> well when driving that way.
>
> MoonMan
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 16:54:35 +0100
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Mike Fenner <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
X-To: "Sauer, Steven T." <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Surely
Contiguous Reflective Amplifier Power ?
Kind Regards
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Sauer, Steven T.
Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 12:09 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
I couldn't resist MoonMan but the technical term for this type of device
would be "Passive Fixed Bandwidth Filter Power Amplifier without coupling".
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 12:12:17 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Randy Bock Sr." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Randy Bock Sr." <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
X-To: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Yea, but remember the big 3 Auto makers have known for years how to make
vehicles run further on a tank of gas with carb designs. Auto and fuel are
in bed with each other.
Have been for years.
----- Original Message -----
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 11:05 AM
Subject: Re: [TN] Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
> How remiss of me not to know that. My hat's off to those high flying
freaky
> freeway folks out there and wish them well, though obviously not wealth at
> that mileage reading. My hat's off to you as well young man for bringing
> this important fact, among all the others expressed on this vital, to me,
> subject.
>
> Anyone working on a new mileage improvement gizmo? Hell, there's always
> money in that and you know these things really work.
>
> Enjoy,
>
> Earl
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Phil Nutting" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 8:07 AM
> Subject: Re: [TN] Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
>
>
> 6 MPG... I thought it was 6 gallons per mile!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Earl Moon [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 9:05 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
>
>
> Damn well said Graham, if I might butt in. Let's do get you started on
> SUV's. Damn stupid car makers have really screwed up a good thing and
really
> hurt tire makers and themselves. Five billion dollar loss for Ford over
it.
>
> My opinion, counting for little I suspect, is all SUV makers should have
> placed a placard on the dashboard warning idiot 90 MPH drivere, like the
one
> that took me out, not to drive over the speed limit or tires will go to
hell
> along, hopefully, with the ass---- driver. Those tires and wheels are way
> too big for extended high speed driving. I like the 6 MPG figure for them
as
> well when driving that way.
>
> MoonMan
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> -----
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> -----
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> -----
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>
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 12:37:36 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Phil Nutting <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Phil Nutting <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhances...NTC
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bill,
No, but there is this gadget that you screw onto the end of your =
tailpipe that is guaranteed to increase your horsepower by 10% and =
reduce emissions by 20%. Only $19.95 for one and $29.95 for a pair.
2002 minus 1973... Gee I get 29 years. How did you get 8 years? New =
math? I don't think I could do that even with Differential Equations.
What a great Friday thread. Thanks for a load of chuckles everybody.
Phil
-----Original Message-----
From: Kasprzak, Bill (sys) USX [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 11:58 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Cell phone antenna enhances...NTC
Earl,
Haven't you seen the TV ad where you install this gadget into your =
incoming
air intake for your car that improves gas mileage by creating a vortex =
or
tornadic flow. Let's see if anyone tried that one.
I hate SUV's. Whatever happened to the energy crisis? Back in '73 they =
said
we only had 20 years of oil left. That was 8 years ago.
Bill Kasprzak
Moog Inc. Manufacturing Engineering, Electronics
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Earl Moon [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 11:06 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
>
> How remiss of me not to know that. My hat's off to those high flying
> freaky
> freeway folks out there and wish them well, though obviously not =
wealth at
> that mileage reading. My hat's off to you as well young man for =
bringing
> this important fact, among all the others expressed on this vital, to =
me,
> subject.
>
> Anyone working on a new mileage improvement gizmo? Hell, there's =
always
> money in that and you know these things really work.
>
> Enjoy,
>
> Earl
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Phil Nutting" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 8:07 AM
> Subject: Re: [TN] Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
>
>
> 6 MPG... I thought it was 6 gallons per mile!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Earl Moon [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 9:05 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
>
>
> Damn well said Graham, if I might butt in. Let's do get you started on
> SUV's. Damn stupid car makers have really screwed up a good thing and
> really
> hurt tire makers and themselves. Five billion dollar loss for Ford =
over
> it.
>
> My opinion, counting for little I suspect, is all SUV makers should =
have
> placed a placard on the dashboard warning idiot 90 MPH drivere, like =
the
> one
> that took me out, not to drive over the speed limit or tires will go =
to
> hell
> along, hopefully, with the ass---- driver. Those tires and wheels are =
way
> too big for extended high speed driving. I like the 6 MPG figure for =
them
> as
> well when driving that way.
>
> MoonMan
>
> =
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 11:37:59 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhances...NTC
X-To: [log in to unmask]
Bill, I got to get me an new vortex. I'll do it any day now.
Hell, as I remember when an engine builder, there's quite a tornadic effect
inherent to good engine design. Something about volumetric efficiency and
flame stuff.
Have you all seen the ads for the new improved Viper? It's a 500 hp, 500
cid, 500 lb/ft torque monster. I really would loved to had one of those in
my carefree motorcycle, flying, and 496 and 455 days.
Now, I'm amazed to say, my favorite car is my hail dented Honda Accord with
over 100000 miles and still going strong. The amazing thing is the quality
and technological innovations. I'm getting another one if it ever breaks but
doubt that seriously.
MoonMan
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 11:43:24 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
X-To: "Randy Bock Sr." <[log in to unmask]>
Called money and power at the top with scam artists at the bottom and honest
hard working folks sandwiched in between. Not nocking free enterprise just
the few good ideas that should be made available to us all without the hefty
price tag.
MoonMan
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 11:47:21 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: NTC - The Gregory's are a team now...
X-To: [log in to unmask]
I'm with you Gaby,
Got to get the pumpkin shape when the balls squat. Very even ball shapes in
Xray verify this clearly as well as edge visualization. You know all this
stuff so I wish you well and keep us all informed about the Genrad gizmo. I
like it. Has anyone else tried it, I wonder?
Earl
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 10:13:52 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Dan R. Johnson" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Dan R. Johnson" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
X-To: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Earl and other SUV haters,
I don't have a "SUV" I have a '75 Land Bruiser. The Toyota has 33" tires and
hasn't seen 65 MPH since I added the last 3" of lift. I do cruise it at 50
across the Black Rock, except when the 4X4 wannabes are out there for
Burning Man with their "SUV's". For cruising the interstate I'll take my
big Mercury with the V8 (26 mpg highway), and Michelin's any day, its the
right tool for the job.
I guess I'm just a little bitter about all the soccer moms and asphalt 4x4
drivers that are giving long time off-roaders a bad image, hell we didn't
have an image before since we did our thing far from the public eye. As with
so many things some one will apply the wrong technology to a situation, how
many post have we seen about how to clean no-clean flux? Give the soccer
mom a mini van and forward the penis enlargement add to the macho men who
have never driven their "SUV" on a gravel road. But lets not paint all 4X4
drivers with the same brush.
Better close this before I get started on the BLM,
Dan
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 20:18:52 +0200
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Gaby Bogdan <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Gaby Bogdan <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: NTC - The Gregory's are a team now...
X-To: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1255
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
I don't know about other people, but if you read the soldering information
of IBM for ceramic BGA, you will find it there, reccommended for CGA too.
From what I heard, it is not so good for columns- I suppose that this is
because placement has to be done with applied force and maybe if the
columns are nor perfectly aligned or the device is nor at 90*, they will
deform, causing shorts or break. We forgot to apply force the first time
(SRT has the option) and The results were not good, Don't forget that the
stencil is upside down and the bulk of paste is on the balls, with less
paste towards the circuit. Also, the stencilreccomendations are special,
balls with the same pitch but different dimensions get more or less paste
volume, as more or less of the ball is intruding the aperture.
Gaby
----- Original Message -----
From: "Earl Moon" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>; <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 6:47 PM
Subject: Re: NTC - The Gregory's are a team now...
> I'm with you Gaby,
>
> Got to get the pumpkin shape when the balls squat. Very even ball shapes
in
> Xray verify this clearly as well as edge visualization. You know all this
> stuff so I wish you well and keep us all informed about the Genrad gizmo.
I
> like it. Has anyone else tried it, I wonder?
>
> Earl
>
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 12:27:51 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhances...NTC
X-To: [log in to unmask]
Yes, this has been fun and thanks, or blame, should go out to that Zeva guy
whoever and wherever he is. Thanks as well to IPC for allowing Steve to get
away with it.
MoonMan - going now for the tailpipe thing instead of the potatos I've been
using.
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 12:32:29 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
X-To: [log in to unmask]
You're cool Dan. Too cool to be affected but 33 inch tires. Give me a break.
No matter, us Nevada and Montana types deserve a break. Remember the
unlimited speed limits in NV especially between Reno and Carson?
Did a landbuster once with a Confersion 327 motor. Went good but only used
it in the dirt. Nice to realize there's some open space left on the planet
on which to play.
MoonMan
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 12:34:20 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: NTC - The Gregory's are a team now...
X-To: [log in to unmask]
Never experienced any problems with CCGA's either in production or
replacement. I did hundreds of these things with the SRT because of an
upgrade. It took almost six months for all the replacements at 24 per board
with 1200 columns. Only minor problem was with sorting out GSM placement
accuracy concerning the vision system.
Really had to watch column alignment though as you say. Other than that, no
problems. I guess, as I don't clearly remember, the force issue was resolved
as a function of machine programming but the parts were so heavy anyway, I
don't think it mad a difference as they just sunk into the paste and aligned
very well.
Interesting stuff, eh Gaby?
Earl
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 10:45:56 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Dave Snyder <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Dave Snyder <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhances...NTC
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
The manufacturers make SUVs because that is what people want. The people
have to decide to buy more fuel efficient vehicles to force the makers to
switch their focus. Personally, I really would like to see fuel cell cars. I
know they are too expensive now but that should change. This may be the only
way to stop our dependency on Middle East oil. I guess another way is to
make the Middle East the 51st state. That's kind of messy though.
Dave Snyder
-----Original Message-----
From: Kasprzak, Bill (sys) USX [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 8:58 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Cell phone antenna enhances...NTC
Earl,
Haven't you seen the TV ad where you install this gadget into your incoming
air intake for your car that improves gas mileage by creating a vortex or
tornadic flow. Let's see if anyone tried that one.
I hate SUV's. Whatever happened to the energy crisis? Back in '73 they said
we only had 20 years of oil left. That was 8 years ago.
Bill Kasprzak
Moog Inc. Manufacturing Engineering, Electronics
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Earl Moon [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 11:06 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
>
> How remiss of me not to know that. My hat's off to those high flying
> freaky
> freeway folks out there and wish them well, though obviously not wealth at
> that mileage reading. My hat's off to you as well young man for bringing
> this important fact, among all the others expressed on this vital, to me,
> subject.
>
> Anyone working on a new mileage improvement gizmo? Hell, there's always
> money in that and you know these things really work.
>
> Enjoy,
>
> Earl
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Phil Nutting" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 8:07 AM
> Subject: Re: [TN] Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
>
>
> 6 MPG... I thought it was 6 gallons per mile!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Earl Moon [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 9:05 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
>
>
> Damn well said Graham, if I might butt in. Let's do get you started on
> SUV's. Damn stupid car makers have really screwed up a good thing and
> really
> hurt tire makers and themselves. Five billion dollar loss for Ford over
> it.
>
> My opinion, counting for little I suspect, is all SUV makers should have
> placed a placard on the dashboard warning idiot 90 MPH drivere, like the
> one
> that took me out, not to drive over the speed limit or tires will go to
> hell
> along, hopefully, with the ass---- driver. Those tires and wheels are way
> too big for extended high speed driving. I like the 6 MPG figure for them
> as
> well when driving that way.
>
> MoonMan
>
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 13:57:15 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Kasprzak, Bill (sys) USX" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Kasprzak, Bill (sys) USX" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhances...NTC
X-To: Phil Nutting <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Phil,
I forgot to tell you, I took a year off. So, I don't count that one!!
Got me on that one.
Bill K.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Phil Nutting [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 12:38 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Cell phone antenna enhances...NTC
>
> Bill,
>
> No, but there is this gadget that you screw onto the end of your tailpipe
> that is guaranteed to increase your horsepower by 10% and reduce emissions
> by 20%. Only $19.95 for one and $29.95 for a pair.
>
> 2002 minus 1973... Gee I get 29 years. How did you get 8 years? New
> math? I don't think I could do that even with Differential Equations.
>
> What a great Friday thread. Thanks for a load of chuckles everybody.
>
> Phil
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kasprzak, Bill (sys) USX [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 11:58 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Cell phone antenna enhances...NTC
>
>
> Earl,
>
> Haven't you seen the TV ad where you install this gadget into your
> incoming
> air intake for your car that improves gas mileage by creating a vortex or
> tornadic flow. Let's see if anyone tried that one.
>
> I hate SUV's. Whatever happened to the energy crisis? Back in '73 they
> said
> we only had 20 years of oil left. That was 8 years ago.
>
> Bill Kasprzak
> Moog Inc. Manufacturing Engineering, Electronics
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Earl Moon [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> > Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 11:06 AM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: [TN] Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
> >
> > How remiss of me not to know that. My hat's off to those high flying
> > freaky
> > freeway folks out there and wish them well, though obviously not wealth
> at
> > that mileage reading. My hat's off to you as well young man for bringing
> > this important fact, among all the others expressed on this vital, to
> me,
> > subject.
> >
> > Anyone working on a new mileage improvement gizmo? Hell, there's always
> > money in that and you know these things really work.
> >
> > Enjoy,
> >
> > Earl
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Phil Nutting" <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 8:07 AM
> > Subject: Re: [TN] Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
> >
> >
> > 6 MPG... I thought it was 6 gallons per mile!
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Earl Moon [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 9:05 AM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: [TN] Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
> >
> >
> > Damn well said Graham, if I might butt in. Let's do get you started on
> > SUV's. Damn stupid car makers have really screwed up a good thing and
> > really
> > hurt tire makers and themselves. Five billion dollar loss for Ford over
> > it.
> >
> > My opinion, counting for little I suspect, is all SUV makers should have
> > placed a placard on the dashboard warning idiot 90 MPH drivere, like the
> > one
> > that took me out, not to drive over the speed limit or tires will go to
> > hell
> > along, hopefully, with the ass---- driver. Those tires and wheels are
> way
> > too big for extended high speed driving. I like the 6 MPG figure for
> them
> > as
> > well when driving that way.
> >
> > MoonMan
> >
> >
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 11:00:05 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Ochenas, Tom" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Ochenas, Tom" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: soldermask ring v. full coat for BGA design
X-To: "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C208CC.FE6F1AC0"
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
------_=_NextPart_001_01C208CC.FE6F1AC0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Hello Brad,
Thanks for responding!
Our board design is two layer (1/2 oz. copper sandwiching .030" FR4). I only
took one semester of deformable solids, but I agree that a standard layer of
LPI should not be able to bow a .030" stack to any significant extent... The
concern was raised by our vendor (three letters - starts with a D)
Your input has emboldened me; we're going to stick with a full mask on the
BGA side. I'll keep you posted :o)
Thanks again!
Tom Ochenas
Maxtek Components Corporation
-----Original Message-----
From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 5:58 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] soldermask ring v. full coat for BGA design
Hello Tom,
My that is an unusual request/requirement. .004 is the min I like, it can
go down to .003. Below that... I wouldn't trust it. Actually the "ring"
configuration you speak of is unique enough that I believe it will be
problematic. I would not do it.
As to the statement of board warping due to soldermask on one side; I
disagree. Soldermask, especially LPI is pretty friendy stuff relative to
warp. Unless there is some unusual condition of board thickness or finish,
one side solder mask will not warp a board.
Brad Saunders
Coretec Boston Office
781 858 0783
------_=_NextPart_001_01C208CC.FE6F1AC0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=694383417-31052002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Hello
Brad,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=694383417-31052002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=694383417-31052002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Thanks
for responding!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=694383417-31052002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=694383417-31052002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Our board design is two layer (1/2 oz. copper sandwiching .030"
FR4). I only took one semester of deformable solids, but I agree that a standard
layer of LPI should not be able to bow a .030" stack to any significant
extent... The concern was raised by our vendor (three letters - starts with a
D)</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=694383417-31052002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=694383417-31052002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Your
input has emboldened me; we're going to stick with a full mask on the BGA side.
I'll keep you posted :o)</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=694383417-31052002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=694383417-31052002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Thanks
again!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=694383417-31052002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=694383417-31052002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Tom
Ochenas</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=694383417-31052002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Maxtek
Components Corporation</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=694383417-31052002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> [log in to unmask]
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, May 30, 2002 5:58
PM<BR><B>To:</B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [TN] soldermask ring
v. full coat for BGA design<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><FONT
face=arial,helvetica><FONT lang=0 face=Arial size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF">Hello
Tom,<BR><BR>My that is an unusual request/requirement. .004 is the min I
like, it can go down to .003. Below that... I wouldn't trust it.
Actually the "ring" configuration you speak of is unique enough that I believe
it will be problematic. I would not do it.<BR><BR>As to the statement of
board warping due to soldermask on one side; I disagree. Soldermask,
especially LPI is pretty friendy stuff relative to warp. Unless there is
some unusual condition of board thickness or finish, one side solder mask will
not warp a board.<BR><BR>Brad Saunders<BR>Coretec Boston Office<BR>781 858
0783</FONT> </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
------_=_NextPart_001_01C208CC.FE6F1AC0--
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 12:58:40 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhances...NTC
X-To: [log in to unmask]
Sure you're right Dave. Maybe now that fewer people have jobs or, at least,
poorer paying ones, they'll set the needed precedence. The car makers keep
missing the mark though. Used to be able to buy simple cars, with lower
price tags, and better fuel economy. Now they make, as you say, what they
think people want.
I'm in Montana now, for a short time, and traveling here across the mid-west
I couldn't count the new oil wells and gas farms operating. Unemabinable
millions of tons of coal move every day out of Colorado and Wyoming on mile
long trains running constantly.
We have all the resources here needed for some time even though fuel cell
cars are needed but, as another wise contributor said, someone will put a
stop to that soon enough.
Don't like the hybrid cars much but seeing many more of them out there.
Newer models, with heavy dependency on electics and electronic innovations.
I like the focus this brings.
A long story about a long journey to our survival on a long road that may be
shortened after all.
MoonMan
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 11:50:20 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Dan R. Johnson" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Dan R. Johnson" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
X-To: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Earl,
I'm probably a little pissy today, I had to do some real work. I'm working
on my ad campaign for Shmoolyon, as we discussed offline this is the perfect
PCB material and I think this is a product that will really take off, I'm
thinking the intro price should be about $19.95 / square ft. What do you
think?
Dan
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 14:14:46 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
X-To: [log in to unmask]
how unimaginative Dan. no matter, the price works for other crap. just be
sure you get the resin system foumulation right. you know I'll buy a ton of
it to as long as it replaces or improves my new SUV, vortex improver, penis
enlarger, fat reducer, and sexual stamina improver, as well as as many women
to try it all out on.
Earl
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 15:46:13 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Fred Biederman <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Fred Biederman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhances...NTC
X-To: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Earl,
Will you talk off line to these people. I have deleted too many of your
emails today.
Thanks
Fred
-----Original Message-----
From: Earl Moon [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 1:59 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Cell phone antenna enhances...NTC
Sure you're right Dave. Maybe now that fewer people have jobs or, at least,
poorer paying ones, they'll set the needed precedence. The car makers keep
missing the mark though. Used to be able to buy simple cars, with lower
price tags, and better fuel economy. Now they make, as you say, what they
think people want.
I'm in Montana now, for a short time, and traveling here across the mid-west
I couldn't count the new oil wells and gas farms operating. Unemabinable
millions of tons of coal move every day out of Colorado and Wyoming on mile
long trains running constantly.
We have all the resources here needed for some time even though fuel cell
cars are needed but, as another wise contributor said, someone will put a
stop to that soon enough.
Don't like the hybrid cars much but seeing many more of them out there.
Newer models, with heavy dependency on electics and electronic innovations.
I like the focus this brings.
A long story about a long journey to our survival on a long road that may be
shortened after all.
MoonMan
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 15:05:42 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
[log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Dave Hillman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re column grid arrays
X-To: [log in to unmask]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi Earl! Hey, did you ever get an feedback on how the CCGA's performed in
their use environment (and what was the use environment conditions)? We
have successfully placed CCGA's in both the semi-automated and automated
assembly modes but if the columns are bent - even slightly - we have seen a
pretty hefty reduction in solder joint fatigue life (avionics use
environment). I have an IBM paper which showed similar results.
Dave Hillman
Rockwell Collins
[log in to unmask]
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>@ipc.org> on 05/31/2002 12:34:20 PM
Please respond to "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>; Please respond
to Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
cc:
Subject: Re: [TN] NTC - The Gregory's are a team now...
Never experienced any problems with CCGA's either in production or
replacement. I did hundreds of these things with the SRT because of an
upgrade. It took almost six months for all the replacements at 24 per board
with 1200 columns. Only minor problem was with sorting out GSM placement
accuracy concerning the vision system.
Really had to watch column alignment though as you say. Other than that, no
problems. I guess, as I don't clearly remember, the force issue was
resolved
as a function of machine programming but the parts were so heavy anyway, I
don't think it mad a difference as they just sunk into the paste and
aligned
very well.
Interesting stuff, eh Gaby?
Earl
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 13:27:54 -0700
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Eddie Rocha <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: soldermask ring v. full coat for BGA design
X-To: "Ochenas, Tom" <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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The concern your board fabricator most likely has, might be due to
one side of the board metal (conductive pattern) being coated with
soldermask while the other side is exposed. This condition can
result in a bow, if the board has a HASL finish. The HASL process
thermally shocks the panel and coating only one side can cause
that panel to bow. The simple answer would be to change the
surface finish to something like white tin. This finish does not
thermally shock the board and shouldn't cost more.
thanks,
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 15:30:39 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhances...NTC
X-To: Fred Biederman <[log in to unmask]>
Fred,
I appreciate and respect your request. I have received and replied to over
60 off line messages such as this stuff. Puts me in a tough situation. Hell,
I'll just quit posting to this though you are the very first to complain.
Regards,
Earl
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 15:33:18 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Re column grid arrays
X-To: Dave Hillman <[log in to unmask]>
Dave,
I wish I could tell you all the expericnces I've had. It's a long list but
starting from the bent column situation, they are a problem both in
production and rework.
Please be advised these devices had cast columns not clasp. Also, the use
environment was strictly commercial as in Cray and SGI products. Cray had
much higher quality and reliability requirements than SGI even though SGI
used to own Cray.
I started doing this stuff, along with my very good associates, about three
years ago. Under "normal" use conditions, these things are still working
today - according to those same associates with whom I maintain close
contact.
Only concern I really had was the very large physical mass sitting on all
those little columns. No matter, at a 1200 column count, they were well
supported.
Just know the comumns are very compliant, even to the point of being bent.
Does require some careful inspection and straightening, if needed, before
placement and soldering.
Just don't know how these things work under your operational conditions.
Sure would like to know but I like them over BGA's any day for normal stuff.
Also need to add here: No mechanical stress or shock but considerable
thermal stress during operation. Used some exoctic cooling at times but not
always.
Earl
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 15:37:10 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: soldermask ring v. full coat for BGA design
X-To: Eddie Rocha <[log in to unmask]>
Not an advocate or proponent of HASL for anything but must say the process
should not impose thermal shock, though maybe considerable stress, when
process properly managed. The process cycle/profile should look much like a
wave soldering operation with adequate preheat, fluxing, flux activation,
conveyor speed, soldering, and cool down.
MoonMan
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 17:34:36 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Steve Kelly <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Steve Kelly <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhances...NTC
X-To: Fred Biederman <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <6B782A90E65FD411A7E30090277E0BF8C2F5B1@BARTLEY1>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I agree - this is supposed to be a technical forum. Thanks. Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Fred Biederman
Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 12:46 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Cell phone antenna enhances...NTC
Earl,
Will you talk off line to these people. I have deleted too many of your
emails today.
Thanks
Fred
-----Original Message-----
From: Earl Moon [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 1:59 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Cell phone antenna enhances...NTC
Sure you're right Dave. Maybe now that fewer people have jobs or, at
least,
poorer paying ones, they'll set the needed precedence. The car makers
keep
missing the mark though. Used to be able to buy simple cars, with lower
price tags, and better fuel economy. Now they make, as you say, what
they
think people want.
I'm in Montana now, for a short time, and traveling here across the
mid-west
I couldn't count the new oil wells and gas farms operating. Unemabinable
millions of tons of coal move every day out of Colorado and Wyoming on
mile
long trains running constantly.
We have all the resources here needed for some time even though fuel
cell
cars are needed but, as another wise contributor said, someone will put
a
stop to that soon enough.
Don't like the hybrid cars much but seeing many more of them out there.
Newer models, with heavy dependency on electics and electronic
innovations.
I like the focus this brings.
A long story about a long journey to our survival on a long road that
may be
shortened after all.
MoonMan
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 11:56:29 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Hogg, Blair K." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Hogg, Blair K." <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
X-To: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I just got an e-mail yesterday at home for this thing you clamp on your gas
line and it breaks down long molecule chains into shorter ones that
supposedly burn faster. Looks like a couple of magnets or something.
Blair Hogg
-----Original Message-----
From: Earl Moon [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 11:06 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
How remiss of me not to know that. My hat's off to those high flying freaky
freeway folks out there and wish them well, though obviously not wealth at
that mileage reading. My hat's off to you as well young man for bringing
this important fact, among all the others expressed on this vital, to me,
subject.
Anyone working on a new mileage improvement gizmo? Hell, there's always
money in that and you know these things really work.
Enjoy,
Earl
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil Nutting" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 8:07 AM
Subject: Re: [TN] Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
6 MPG... I thought it was 6 gallons per mile!
-----Original Message-----
From: Earl Moon [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 9:05 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
Damn well said Graham, if I might butt in. Let's do get you started on
SUV's. Damn stupid car makers have really screwed up a good thing and really
hurt tire makers and themselves. Five billion dollar loss for Ford over it.
My opinion, counting for little I suspect, is all SUV makers should have
placed a placard on the dashboard warning idiot 90 MPH drivere, like the one
that took me out, not to drive over the speed limit or tires will go to hell
along, hopefully, with the ass---- driver. Those tires and wheels are way
too big for extended high speed driving. I like the 6 MPG figure for them as
well when driving that way.
MoonMan
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 16:44:13 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Jack Crawford <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Jack Crawford <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: TechNet Cops are NOT on vacation
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_E2BF24AF.4F2E4CCD"
This is a MIME message. If you are reading this text, you may want to
consider changing to a mail reader or gateway that understands how to
properly handle MIME multipart messages.
--=_E2BF24AF.4F2E4CCD
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In the past week there have been 53 separate posts about the cell phone =
antenna enhancers, few with true technical content. That's nearly 64,000 =
msgs to the 1200 members of the TechNet forum. The 10 posts about the =
Gregory's add another 12,000. There are spammers in this world that would =
wish for that kind of msg proliferation.
Colleagues, this is a gentle reminder of the need to keep postings =
technically oriented.
Thanks
Jack
--=_E2BF24AF.4F2E4CCD
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Description: HTML
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1"=
>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY style=3D"MARGIN-TOP: 2px; FONT: 8pt MS Sans Serif; MARGIN-LEFT: =
2px">
<DIV><FONT size=3D1>In the past week there have been 53 separate posts =
about the=20
cell phone antenna enhancers, few with true technical content. That's =
nearly=20
64,000 msgs to the 1200 members of the TechNet forum. The 10 =
posts=20
about the Gregory's add another 12,000. There are spammers in this world =
that=20
would wish for that kind of msg proliferation.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1>Colleagues, this is a gentle reminder of the need to =
keep=20
postings technically oriented.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1>Thanks</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1>Jack</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
--=_E2BF24AF.4F2E4CCD--
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 15:12:14 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Yu, Rudolph" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Yu, Rudolph" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: 0201 inspection and rework tools
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
hi Technet!!
I am searching for the right equipment to inspect and tools to rework 0201
package. Can someone point me to the sources where I can look for the
answers? or mind share you experience with me?
Thanks
Rudolph
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 15:38:31 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Denis Lefebvre <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Denis Lefebvre <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: OT Cell phone antenna enhances...NTC
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
May I suggest what we do on another forum? We place the letters "OT" in =
the subject for Off Topic. That way individual subscribers can set up =
their own filters for "OT" messages. Or could that be why 'NTC' was in =
this subject line? What is "NTC" anyway?
-----Original Message-----
From: Earl Moon [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 1:31 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Cell phone antenna enhances...NTC
Fred,
I appreciate and respect your request. I have received and replied to =
over
60 off line messages such as this stuff. Puts me in a tough situation. =
Hell,
I'll just quit posting to this though you are the very first to =
complain.
Regards,
Earl
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 19:33:01 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Werner Engelmaier <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi MoonMan,
I too hate SUVs. You cannot see through or around them on a highway.
A technical problem with them is that for the higher end models under-hood=20
temperatures exceed 130=B0C. The Big Three in Detroit do not know much about=
=20
designing electronic packaging. The consequences are failures--GM had to=20
recall a cople of years worth of SUVs because their windshield wiper motor=20
controls developed solder joint failures within a year or two. That the=20
design could not have been worse if you tried to do it bad.
Werner Engelmaier
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 19:03:49 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: OT Cell phone antenna enhances...NTC
X-To: Denis Lefebvre <[log in to unmask]>
Come on Denis, I yeild. I quit. It's over. It was a one time thing and will
never happen again but I'm not sorry because it was Zeva's fault anyway.
I'd much rather talk CCGA's with Hillman or banter with Sir Werner about
just anything.
MoonMan
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 19:07:54 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cell phone antenna enhancers...NTC
X-To: Werner Engelmaier <[log in to unmask]>
Yes Werner, but that's too technical for me. However, I do share the lament
concerning windshield wiper failures especially when those poor folks are
driving 90 in a blinding rain storm. Sure wish all you folks would back off
tempting me to talk more about this NTC stuff.
Enjoy the weekend folks especially for the 100:1 ratio of you who joined in
on Steve's little experiment.
Earl Moon
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 22:26:03 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: OT- wasn't an experiment..
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I first posted the question as a honest inquiry to the RF/ Cell phone people
to try and really learn if the gizmo's that are being sold really work or
not. Thought that the list would be a very appropriate place to post this
question.
As far as my Gregory post, Jason has been a long time technetter, and was
recently displaced from his job from other forces...I just thought I would
relay that he had found employment...that's all, and add a humorous twist to
it.
I think that those of us that have been members on this list for a while,
like to hear what happens to each of us when our situations change. I think
that those of us that have been on the list for a while, have got to know
each other, and we like to hear about how each of us are getting along...
I didn't mean to "stir the pot" so to speak, but I guess I did. Occasional
"pot stirring" isn't a bad thing though.
I understand Jacks admonition about all the emails that the server deals with
when we get off on a tangent like this. But on the other hand, if it were a
controversial "Technical" subject, there would be the same volume of
traffic...so what's the real difference? High traffic that's relevent, or
off-topic traffic? Traffic is traffic, posts are posts, the server doesn't
know what is relavent...and doesn't work any harder on one, than the other.
Blame it all on me, I'm the bad guy...I'm in the mood for taking blame right
now. Bought a used Electrovert Omniflo-10 reflow oven that everybody was
counting on to be delivered, and up and running in just a couple of days, and
it doesn't look like that's going to happen for various reasons, so my name
is crap right now...I'm in the mood for taking criticisms, let me have it...
Maybe I should just unsubscribe...sorry about everything.
-Steve Gregory-
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Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 12:06:06 +0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Lum Wee Mei <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Lum Wee Mei <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: DSO National Laboratories
Subject: Re: Coating thickness
X-To: Hinners Hans M Civ WRALC/LUGE <[log in to unmask]>
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I strongly agreed with you on the last statement. Potting and conformal coating served two different
applications altogether :8)
Regards - Wee Mei
Hinners Hans M Civ WRALC/LUGE wrote:
> Hi Wee Mei,
>
> To echo what others have already said.
>
> Your colleague can also check the manufacturer's coating thickness
> recommendation for a specific product. (I'm sure that's where IPC-A-610 got
> the numbers.)
>
> I strongly recommend staying within the acceptable range. My personal
> preference is to target slightly higher than the middle of the spec., if the
> range is broad enough. I've run into problems, on the processing side, when
> someone specified well above the max. and we had hideous solvent retention.
> Folks using conformal coating as a potting compound are not my friends.
>
> Hans
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Hans M. Hinners
> Electronics Engineer
> Warner Robins - Air Logistics Center (WR-ALC/LUGE)
> 226 Cochran Street
> Robins AFB GA 31098-1622
>
> mailto:[log in to unmask]
>
> Com: (478) 926 - 5224
> Fax: (478) 926 - 4911
> DSN Prefix: 468
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fullname [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 10:27 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] Coating thickness
>
> IPC-A-610C section 9.1.3 mentioned the following coating thickness :
> Type AR Acrylic resin 0.03 - 0.13mm
> Type ER Epoxy resin 0.03 - 0.13mm
> Type UR Urethane resin 0.03 - 0.13mm
> Type SR Silicon resin 0.05 - 0.21mm
> Type XY Paraxlyene resin 0.01 - 0.05mm
>
> Questions asked on behalf of my colleague are :
> 1. How does one arrive at the coating thickness for each types of
> coating material?
> 2. What is the impact to my board or components if my coating thickness
> exceed or below the range stated above?
>
> Regards - Wee Mei
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 22:37:02 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: OT- wasn't an experiment..
X-To: [log in to unmask]
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Steve,
I didn't know you were going through such trying times. I just figured you
were busy but were having a good laugh over the whole thing especially my
"blaming" you for the whole not too serious bantering.
I admit to getting way too carried away but, hopefully, not at anyone else's
expense.
Earl
----- Original Message -----
From: <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 8:26 PM
Subject: [TN] OT- wasn't an experiment..
> I first posted the question as a honest inquiry to the RF/ Cell phone
people
> to try and really learn if the gizmo's that are being sold really work or
> not. Thought that the list would be a very appropriate place to post this
> question.
>
> As far as my Gregory post, Jason has been a long time technetter, and was
> recently displaced from his job from other forces...I just thought I would
> relay that he had found employment...that's all, and add a humorous twist
to
> it.
>
> I think that those of us that have been members on this list for a while,
> like to hear what happens to each of us when our situations change. I
think
> that those of us that have been on the list for a while, have got to know
> each other, and we like to hear about how each of us are getting along...
>
> I didn't mean to "stir the pot" so to speak, but I guess I did. Occasional
> "pot stirring" isn't a bad thing though.
>
> I understand Jacks admonition about all the emails that the server deals
with
> when we get off on a tangent like this. But on the other hand, if it were
a
> controversial "Technical" subject, there would be the same volume of
> traffic...so what's the real difference? High traffic that's relevent, or
> off-topic traffic? Traffic is traffic, posts are posts, the server doesn't
> know what is relavent...and doesn't work any harder on one, than the
other.
>
> Blame it all on me, I'm the bad guy...I'm in the mood for taking blame
right
> now. Bought a used Electrovert Omniflo-10 reflow oven that everybody was
> counting on to be delivered, and up and running in just a couple of days,
and
> it doesn't look like that's going to happen for various reasons, so my
name
> is crap right now...I'm in the mood for taking criticisms, let me have
it...
>
> Maybe I should just unsubscribe...sorry about everything.
>
> -Steve Gregory-
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
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> To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in
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SET Technet NOMAIL
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> information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-509-9700
ext.5315
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>
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 23:36:42 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: OT- wasn't an experiment..
My apologies. I didn't know this would be posted on the forum. I thought I
was replying to Steve personally.
I'm taking a week or two off from both technical and non technical stuff.
MoonMan
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