Earl/George: As a board/assembly supplier for many years in the New England area (as well as Texas) I have worked with a myriad of fabricators each expressing they were leaders in one product or another. The reasons for one surviving versus another was rarely technical but almost always related to price. It is from this vantage that all discussions would initiate. The point about fabricators participating in the forum (which I believe is the best available/thanks to expert contributions of the participants) prompted a response. I personally believe in the Deming principals of Co-operative Engineering when servicing clients. The people I serve do not. I believe in DFM/CE functions coupled with the customers product marketing team when determining optimum designs to meet competitive pressures of the marketplace. The companies I have called on do not. I could go on but you get the point. The reason....money, time, hubris (who is smarter), I can speculate as well as any. As one who believe as you do Earl in the total design approach to successful board manufacture and assembly, we are in the minority. Yet, I so firmly believe in the method because of its obvious monetary and quality benefits (not necessarily in that order) I will continue to advocate for it at every opportunity. I recall when I was providing fabrication services to a major user in New England who's specifications were so loose that the fabricators of which I was one would be measured on a moving scale based on how the QA/Assembly/Inspection team felt that day. Suspect rejections were rampant, design flaws constant, resulting in tremendous effort by all parties to try and guess; what did this company want?. Up to this point, ANY questioning of the companies expertise at any level was met with a threat of termination as a vendor. It was so egregious that I suggested to the company that we have a PCB Summit meeting to agree on a holistic specification for all with the goal of providing consistent quality product. The meeting took place with all vendors present (approx. 6-8 at the time) and in comes the VP of Mfg'ing who states the following: "Before we get started, we are reducing the vendor base after this meeting. Thank you for coming and have a good meeting". Needless to say nothing was changed. And that brings me to today. Please continue Earl in your work towards the co-operative engineering method as I will. For US electronics manufacturing to survive in the next decade, we must convince our associates/friends that this is the appropriate path. I apologize for the long post....just felt you should hear from the fabrication side. By the way....I know what a photomicrograph is and have been providing them since 1982. Keep up the quality inputs Earl and George Charlie McMahon. Earl Moon wrote: >George, > >Thank you very much for shedding some light on an important, to us all, >subject. Sure glad, for us all, you stick around though you're obviously >thought of as much more than a board person. > >As for my experiences, and some of my friends in the business, I used to get >mostly "up front" consulting jobs. Now, I get mostly "fix it" type work. I'm >not complaining but, as you said, there seems a new way of designing, >fabricating, and assembling product. > >The two examples, of my supplier base that's been with me for years, are >good examples of concurrent engineering staffs. Sanmina Hadco, in its >Haverhill tech center, still has this capability and I desparately hope it >continues but, with the closure of its assembly tech center in Austin, I >have to wonder if the pendulum is swinging back to "traditional" sales >techniques (used car type approach). > >Though still providing good product, some of the other PCB technical >"giants" don't talk technical anymore. They and many assembly houses talk >the talk of sales folks mostly telling us/me what we/I want to hear. What >they don't understand is I want to hear technical content with their ability >to back it up. > >As much as I love my favorite board shop, PE, I have had few in depth >technical discussions with them. As one example, I requested >photomicrographs to accompany slugs before and after thermal stress to >visually confirm their report. I was asked, when questioning why no pics >were avaialable, as very nice sales lady, apparently, asked "what is >photomicrographs?" > >I recognize my client's management, as many other companies, have limited >knowledge concerning PCB's. That, in my opinion, is whay they should look >for folks having up front approaches to preventing defect, through DFM/CE, >at the design level. > >As you say, we need more good young engineers having the knowledge, talent, >desire, and ability to do this ever more important job as the technical >world gets more complex. I sure look back on a different world, but don't we >all. Was it any better, I think so when it came to PCB's. > >Earl > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d >To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in >the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet >To temporarily halt delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL >To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest >Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives >Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm for additional >information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-509-9700 ext.5315 >--------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >