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Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 15:04:58 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Ken Carlile <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Ken Carlile <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Failure rate to Package Size
We are currently looking to minimize board space by switching from 0805 and
0603 parts to either 0402 or 0201 where applicable. I have read responses
from the archive indicating pro's and con's, but I was wondering from a
production standpoint if there is any factual data for the increase in
solderability issues resulting from reduced packaging. Are there any QA
types out there with this rework data? I would have to believe brindging
and tombstoning increase.
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Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 18:33:43 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
[log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Dave Hillman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Accelerated test for simulation of storage of PCBs with
surface finish white tin
X-To: [log in to unmask]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Peter! Let me redefine a misconception - if you are truly going to "=
age"
a pwb sample then the aging method would produce either the same oxide
conditions, the same intermetallic conditions or the combination of
oxide/intermetallic conditions that the pwb sample would have after sit=
ting
in storage for X amount of time. Unfortunately surface finish oxidation=
doesn't behave well in accelerated conditioning - typically you
force/produce oxide thicknesses/species which are not present under nor=
mal
storage conditions. Intermetallic growth is better behaved and there ha=
ve
been some good data published showing those relationships. I recommend =
you
look at two conditioning methods: the use of humidity and the use of
temperature. Tin surface finishes tend to degrade quickly under humid
conditions in terms oxide growth. The use of temperature will highlight=
intermetallic growth problems. Now what recipes to use? Many investigat=
ions
have used 85C/85% RH as their humidity parameters for oxide growth - yo=
u
get to pick the time. Many investigations use either 125C for 8 hours o=
r
150C for 16 hours as their temperature parameters for intermetallic gro=
wth.
Instead of expecting to "age" the surface finish, looking at your
conditioning as attempting to determine the "robustness" of the surface=
finish for a set of conditions (you will be much happier in the long ru=
n).
You will have to decide just how "robust" you want the coating. For
example, are acceptable wetting balance values after 48 hours of 85/85
exposure robust enough for your manufacturing process to have high yiel=
ds?
Only you can determine that. The IPC Alternative Final Finishes task gr=
oup,
chaired by Denny Fritz of MacDermid, is in the final stages of issuing=
a
report that attempts to answer the question " is there a
time/temperature/humidity conditioning parameter set which can be used =
for
a variety of finishes to predict robustness?" - the JSTD-003 committee
intends to use the Alt Finish committee efforts to revise the current
"steam aging" methodology. Hope this helps.
Dave Hillman
Rockwell Collins
[log in to unmask]
Peter Hefti <[log in to unmask]>@ipc.org> on 04/25/2002 02:29:50 AM
Please respond to "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>; Please res=
pond
to Peter Hefti <[log in to unmask]>
Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
cc:
Subject: [TN] Accelerated test for simulation of storage of PCBs wit=
h
surface finish white tin
Hello TechNet:
We are searching for a method of accelerated aging of PCBs with surface=
finish in white tin (chemical =A0tin).
This method should be recognized , in order to simulate the storage of =
6 or
12 month under normal conditions.
(85/85/1d or 2d =A0test ??)
After such an accelerated test, the solderability will be tested by the=
wetting balance method.
Thank you for your answer
With best regards
Peter Hefti
=
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Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 20:50:54 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Rudy Sedlak <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: test for film residue
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="part1_148.d89a811.29f9fe6e_boundary"
--part1_148.d89a811.29f9fe6e_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 4.25.02 12:23:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [log in to unmask]
writes:
> Does anyone know of a test to look for film/stripper residue after copper
> stripping.
Assume you mean after stripping film from Copper?
Stripper residue is a tough one, and not real likely to be an issue.
Tarnish could be another issue that is very difficult to test for except by
sight. Depending on stripper, this could be significant....the clue is, if
the problem gets worse as the stripper chemistry gets older, it is quite
possibly tarnish...
Film residue is the most likely residue. One way to test that is a good
test, but, can make your test board need rework is to drop on an immersion
plating solution. Two different ones are common. Some people use immersion
Tin to test if the surface is clean. A drop should plate uniformly, and
adherently. Another test is to drop on Silver Nitrate solution...usually use
the stuff that is used for titration in the lab. The surface should
essentially immediately turn black, and it should be adherent.
Another residue problem that can occur, and especially in old stripper
chemistry, is immersion Tin residues....this does not relate to the test
above. Rather, your stripper chemistry can pickup Tin from the oxide on the
plating on outerlayers, and redeposit this on the Copper next to it. The
potential for this problem is magnified tremendously if you strip in a tank,
rather than exclusively in sprays, and can be strongly affected by the
condition of the Tin plating solution. If your Tin electroplating solution
looks very milky, this is disperse Tin oxide, which co-deposits with the Tin
metal, then easily dissolves in certain kinds of stripper chemistry, and
redeposits, sometimes even is sprays, on the adjacent Copper.
The film residues have become an especial problem in recent years, as the new
generation of photoresists, which stick VERY well, require specially
formulated types of stripper chemistry.
I probably have told you more than you want to know, but, in case I haven't,
you can call me to discuss it.
Rudy Sedlak
RD Chemical Company 650-962-8004
--part1_148.d89a811.29f9fe6e_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">In a message dated 4.25.02 12:23:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [log in to unmask] writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Does anyone know of a test to look for film/stripper residue after copper<BR>
stripping. </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Assume you mean after stripping film from Copper?<BR>
<BR>
Stripper residue is a tough one, and not real likely to be an issue.<BR>
<BR>
Tarnish could be another issue that is very difficult to test for except by sight. Depending on stripper, this could be significant....the clue is, if the problem gets worse as the stripper chemistry gets older, it is quite possibly tarnish...<BR>
<BR>
Film residue is the most likely residue. One way to test that is a good test, but, can make your test board need rework is to drop on an immersion plating solution. Two different ones are common. Some people use immersion Tin to test if the surface is clean. A drop should plate uniformly, and adherently. Another test is to drop on Silver Nitrate solution...usually use the stuff that is used for titration in the lab. The surface should essentially immediately turn black, and it should be adherent.<BR>
<BR>
Another residue problem that can occur, and especially in old stripper chemistry, is immersion Tin residues....this does not relate to the test above. Rather, your stripper chemistry can pickup Tin from the oxide on the plating on outerlayers, and redeposit this on the Copper next to it. The potential for this problem is magnified tremendously if you strip in a tank, rather than exclusively in sprays, and can be strongly affected by the condition of the Tin plating solution. If your Tin electroplating solution looks very milky, this is disperse Tin oxide, which co-deposits with the Tin metal, then easily dissolves in certain kinds of stripper chemistry, and redeposits, sometimes even is sprays, on the adjacent Copper.<BR>
<BR>
The film residues have become an especial problem in recent years, as the new generation of photoresists, which stick VERY well, require specially formulated types of stripper chemistry.<BR>
<BR>
I probably have told you more than you want to know, but, in case I haven't, you can call me to discuss it.<BR>
<BR>
Rudy Sedlak<BR>
RD Chemical Company 650-962-8004</FONT></HTML>
--part1_148.d89a811.29f9fe6e_boundary--
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=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 21:48:26 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Jim Keating <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Jim Keating <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Looking for laser drill service company.
X-To: peter blokhuis <[log in to unmask]>
X-cc: "Ronald D. Schaeffer" <[log in to unmask]>,
Gabor Kardos <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Peter,
Please feel free to contact Photomachining at (603) 882-9944. I'm sure that we can be of service.
Regards
Jim Keating
peter blokhuis wrote:
> Can anyone share the name of a good laser drilling
> service company?
>
> Peter Blokhuis
> 585-254-2988 x243
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
> http://games.yahoo.com/
>
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Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 12:51:35 +0300
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Brian Ellis <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Brian Ellis <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Freeze Spray Trouble Shooting
X-To: Bev Christian <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Bev
I agree PFCs are the worst climate changers (with SF6) that exist. Some
of them are over 10,000 times worse than CO2. As a rule of thumb, 6
freezing cans which contain a PFC gas would have as much effect on
climate change as a medium car over its whole lifetime (horrific
thought). Furthermore, there will still be the contents of two of those
cans in the atmosphere 40-odd generations from now (assuming man lives
for another 40 generations!). However, I think most freezing cans
contain HFC-134a, which is bad enough but not as bad as PFCs. Some may
still contain HCFC-22 which is just as bad AND an ozone depleter, to
boot, but is not phased out under the Montreal Protocol until 2010 (some
countries may phase it out sooner).
Brian
Bev Christian wrote:
>
> Jean-Luc and other TechNetters,
> I just want to point out that I was absolutely NOT talking about CFC's
> (chlorofluorocarbons), which of course I know are banned. I am concerned
> about fully fluorinated compounds - no chlorine, no hydrogen, just
> CF3(CF2)nCF3 and branched chain equivalents. I will shut up if someone can
> tell me about cooling sprays that are not based on CF compounds - or on
> relatively friendly gases like CO2 and N2.
>
> Bev Christian
> Research in Motion
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: April 25, 2002 10:02 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Freeze Spray Trouble Shooting
>
> Nice equipment but well the original post was about freezing electronic
> component, and not to cool down dry machining operations.
>
> For electronic application, the chemical used must be clean and not have
> any contaminants in it, otherwise the electronic won't like it.
> I see that Exair Vortex include a dust and oil filter but is it clean
> enough for electronic parts ?
> Another thing is that also it is small compared to a milling machine, the
> Vortex is still quite bulky to use in a lab, specially with the hose for
> the shop air.
>
> Aother thing to consider is that most freeze spray are specified with low
> electrostatic charge, because charge build-up could destroy components.
>
> As for Bev Christian's concern about CFC, there are Freeze Spray without
> CFC.
>
> Jean-Luc Lehmann
>
> SteveZeva@AOL
> .COM To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent by: cc:
> TechNet Subject: Re: [TN] Freeze Spray
> Trouble Shooting
> <[log in to unmask]
> ORG>
>
> 25.04.02
> 02:44
> Please
> respond to
> "TechNet
> E-Mail
> Forum.";
> Please
> respond to
> SteveZeva
>
> Hi David!
>
> That's why this list is so valuable! They are still around!
> Http://www.exair.com
>
> Thanks!
>
> -Steve Gregory-
>
> Bev, Years ago (about 7) there was a company selling hand held Vortex
> generators that plugged into 100 psi shop air.
> These little jewels put out -40 degree C air as long as there was 100 psi
> available. It also had to be dry nonlubed air. The company was called
> EXAir. I don't know if they are still around. David A. Douthit
> Manager
> LoCan LLC
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> -----
>
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Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 12:57:43 +0300
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Brian Ellis <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Brian Ellis <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Microscopes
X-To: "Torres, Roberto" <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Bob
There are at least ten softwares available which allow you to crop what
you don't wish to see (and otherwise enhance the image). I use Corel
PhotoPaint, part of the Corel Draw! Suite, but there are more expensive
ones, such as PhotoShop which will do exactly the same job. I think
Ulead make a good one, as well and you may even find freebies or
shareware on the 'Net. Cropping and resampling also allow you to reduce
the file size if you wish to send images by e-mail, without any further
compression or other loss of image quality.
Best regards,
Brian
"Torres, Roberto" wrote:
>
> Brian;
>
> Well noted, just looks odd on the .jpg files.
>
> Bob
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian Ellis [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 11:12 PM
> To: TechNet E-Mail Forum.; Torres, Roberto
> Subject: Re: [TN] Microscopes
>
> Roberto
>
> Does this matter? If you use a 4.3 or higher Mpixel camera, there are
> sufficient pixels left in the centre zone to record what you need to
> see, nicht war?
>
> Brian
>
> "Torres, Roberto" wrote:
> >
> > All;
> >
> > Thanks for the suggestions on Microscopes and Digital photographs.
> > The suggestion from Charles was of particular interest. Seems like
> > most use the method we use here now put the digital camera to the
> > lens of the microscope and snap away, it is just with this method
> > we tend to get a lot of telescope images, that is round and black
> > around the edges.
> >
> > Again thanks for all the input.
> >
> > Regards
> > Bob Torres
> >
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
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=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 06:57:05 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Strickland, Mark" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Strickland, Mark" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Insulation in the crimp contact area
X-To: "Forselles, Tom" <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Look at IPC-A-620, figure 5-45. If you want confidence, go to the
manufacturers spec for the contact and pull test a sample(s) (with the same
configuration) to be sure the tensile strength meets the manufacturers
recommendations, or alternately you can cross-section a sample to ensure the
strands are deformed and fill the voids.
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Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 07:11:41 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: ESSENTIAL MLB STUFF CONTINUED
Folks,
For those interested, I will be updating my article on MLB material
selections and constructions. I've asked Daan if he would post it with my
MLB ESSENTIAL STUFF.
My reason for doing this simply is because too many good folks suffer at the
hands of a lack of concurrence between themselves and their MLB suppliers.
As I've said before, I get most of my simple jobs fixing very costly
mistakes that are easily preventable using DFM/CE. In a way, I'm really
tired of this kind of crap but it's a living.
Anyway, for give me Peter, the following really prompted me to do this. Hope
it helps:
Peter,
High praise in deed from someone I respect highly.
First, I always get involved at the front end with "rookies" needing to
learn the talk so they can walk the walk. So, it all starts with clearly
defined requirements concerning what they must demand of their "qualified"
suppliers (of course, I do the qualification as well).
Master drawing notes, and attendant graphics and tables, not specifications,
are the fundamental, key instruments supporting any contract for PCB's.
Then, acceptance specifications, as IPC 600F - whatever class required, are
the next requirement clearly indicating what the board shop must look for,
as a function of master drawing requirements, and the methods used to
determine whether drawing requirements are met. X-sectioning is one very
important key for me and all I do and Section 7.0, in my notes, clearly call
out this requirement and its deliverables. All this applies with rookies
when I have to go in to fix a mess, which is most oftent the case these
days.
Concerning glass styles, you may have read one of my articles clearly
indicating the importance of this critical area. The tables I sent are not
revolutionary. They, along with whatever material matrix I need at the time,
ensure only specified materials and constructions are used to ensure
dimensional stability, bond strength, laminate integrity, and electrical
performance requirements are met - exactly as I specify. If you don't have
this article, I'll get it to you.
As I qualify my suppliers, I have a concurrent relationship established as a
function of the master drawing FIRST. If a supplier has a problem with
anything on the master drawing, we discuss it. If resolution is not
forthcoming, in my favor, that supplier is not qualified. This includes my
dictating what glass styles and resin contents are required in each
dielectric thickness as well as all the rest of the master drawin notes and
graphics. Simply, with even the most qualified shops with no discredit to
them, there must be no room for misinterpretation when high reliability/cost
MLB's are concerned. I demand concurrence, and always get it, from our first
conversations concerning a new design.
With all the foregoing, I never tell or dictate to a supplier how to manage
its processes though I, as part of the qualification process, know exactly
what is required in accordance with the master drawing. When it comes to
line widths, the supplier and myself know what is required as a function of
impedance, as one example, as well as other factors such as image, etch,
etc.. The latitude I allow concernis minor adjustments we both agree on
before starting the fab process. I allow little lattitude concerning
materials and constructions, but trace width may vary to meet a requirement
though other compromises may be made as well as long as we are both clear
and the requirement shows up in writing on the master drawing for that
particular board.
One of my most highly qualified board shops appeared to be having a
solderability issue as his x'd out boards wouldn't/couldn't meet my solder
wetting requirement. The "good" boards worked fine. Non wetting, it turns
out, was the reason for xing out the defective boards.
The master drawing notes you now attempt correcting some horrific issues on
some incredibly bad designs at the most rooky of companies. I had to do
something underneath the BGA's to prevent solder bridging from wave
soldering operations. This is a temporary fix until we go to blind vias on
this board. However, the notes clearly indicated what must be done as worked
out concurrently between the shop and myself. For the reasons you stated, I
am an anti tenter. I will use whatever path or process necessary to prevent
using tenting and there are many alternatives - usually.
The difference between core and foil lamination comes down to additional
layers/costs, and a much more favorable process for most all suppliers. It
is much easier and less costly to foil laminate as certain process
management issues are resolved as is surfact quality with fewer pits and
dents, as examples. The key is process management. If someone has never done
foil lamination, don't expect them to be capable of doing anything but core
processing.
Quality conformance test circuitry, and the coupons comprising it, are a key
element in my scheme of things. I cannot function without knowing what is in
the Z axiis where 90% of the board is hidden without x-sectional analysis in
accordance with IPC 6012 qualification requirements and 650 test methods
indicated therein. I insist on photomicrographs before and after thermal
stress. I correlate, again, all findings with master drawing reqirements
thus ensuring my requirements are met and I can take the board into
production expecting identical results.
There's so much more but so little time. I always enjoy talking with you and
learn much from your postings as well.
Let me know if I can be of more assistance,
Earl
----- Original Message -----
From: <[log in to unmask]>
To: "Earl Moon" <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 5:34 PM
Subject: Re: [TN] PREPREG
> Hi, Earl,
>
> Very many thanks indeed for the copy of you MLB Fab spec, although it is
> for class 2 boards, where mine are class 3. I am happy to see that much of
> my own fab spec reflects what you have built up for yours, although mine
> still lacks some of the detail you have included.
>
> I know little about glass styles or their properties, so have never dared
> to mention requirements in my specs. How important is it to specify glass
> styles that may not be used (e.g. 7628) - i.e. can that not be left to the
> good sense of the fabricaor? What is te problem with7628? Is it a low
resin
> glass, or is there something else that makes it unsuitable for certain
> aplications?
>
> Sorry to bug you with questions, but I would love to have greater insight
> to some of this stuff. How different is a Cu-Core-Cu construction from a
> foil laminated construction in terms of the end nett result? I specify the
> former, but am aware that at least one fab house actually makes the boards
> with foil lamination, at least for some layers. Should I be worried about
> this? The boards seem to have performed OK.
>
> You specify the same specs for different aspects throughout your spec,
> whereas I specify the specs to be complied with at the beginning of my
> spec, unless otherwise stated elsewhere in the spec. Have you found it
> necessary to re-state the specs for each aspect, or do you do so just to
be
> absolutely certain they're adhered to? Or are there options within the
> specs you specify for those aspects, and you're stating your requirement
or
> preference?
>
> I have never stated what the trace widths and spacings should be, allowing
> the Gerber data to speak for itself. Should I be stating them in writing
as
> well?
>
> Aren't etchback and desmear "givens" these days, or should they still be
> stated in Black and White?
>
> I haven't requested test coupons or other proof of compliance apart from a
> C of C, mostly because we have no facilities here for checking them
> ourselves. Only when we have a known fab problem will I ask for these. Nor
> have I thought to specify solderability requirements, and proof thereof.
> (You see, I do have a bit to learn!)
>
> I see you use tenting - I mention this only because of the debates that
> arise on TN frequently about this with regard to contamination entrapment
> and reduced cleaning effectiveness with this method. I have considered
> tenting inadvisable for Class 3 boards, have specifically recommended to
> the design team that it not be used (not that they know to specify it one
> way or the other anyway). In your experience, tenting is obviously not a
> problem, or has particular benefits or you wouldn't be including it in
your
> notes. Can you tell me the rationale behind using or not-using tenting,
> apart from not losing solder down holes and minimising the risk of "double
> reflow" (that phrase so hated by the redoubtable Sir GW)?
>
> Large respect
>
> Peter
>
>
>
> "Earl Moon" <[log in to unmask]> 25/04/2002 08:54 PM
>
> To: DUNCAN Peter/Asst Prin Engr/ST Aero/ST Group@ST
> Domain
> cc:
> Subject: Re: [TN] PREPREG
>
>
>
>
>
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Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 09:30:24 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
tony steinke <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: tony steinke <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Fw: [TN] Immersion Gold Vs Immersion Tin for 0201 landpatterns
MIME-Version: 1.0
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----- Original Message -----
From: "tony steinke" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 8:21 AM
Subject: Re: [TN] Immersion Gold Vs Immersion Tin for 0201 landpatterns
> Tuan,
>
> Both processes have their advantages and disadvantages. Both processes
> provide
> a very flat uniformed finish surface. You mention a 12 month shelf life
for
> the Immersion
> Tin, I would say it would be closer to 6-8 months(also the tin does not
> perform well in
> multiple pass assembly) You should check the technet archives and it will
> give you more information
> than you can imagine.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tuan Bui" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 10:07 AM
> Subject: [TN] Immersion Gold Vs Immersion Tin for 0201 landpatterns
>
>
> > Hello Technetters,
> >
> > I'm a new member to this board, and hope some technetters could void
their
> > opinions and advices on this issues.
> >
> > We are currently dealing with a 0201 SMT process and have some issues
with
> > a HASL 0201 landpatterns. The HASL PCB has non-uniformed finshed
surface,
> > and results in tombstones and solderballs after the reflow process. We
> then
> > switch to Immersion gold 0201 landpatterns and the issues of solderballs
> > and tombstones went away. The average cost different between HASl and
> > Immersion gold (7-10 micron)is about 6 - 8 % in cost. Another PCB vendor
> > introduced us to Immersion Tin (white tin) to reduce the additional cost
> of
> > Immersion Gold pads (about 2-5 % cost different between HASl and Tin).
We
> > have used Immersion Gold in many of our prototype products and having
> > really high yeilds, but we have not try the Immersion Tin pad finished
and
> > wonder if they behave like the Immersion Gold. The vendor also mentioned
> > that the Tin finished will oxidize and have a shelf life of 12 months.
> >
> > BTW, We are using "No Clean" process with Convection air oven.
> >
> > Any technetter has experienced in both pads surface finished ( Gold Vs
> Tin)
> > is greatly appreciates.
> >
> > Tuan Bui
> > Process Dev Eng
> > Conexant Systems Inc.
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
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> > Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm for
additional
> > information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-509-9700
> ext.5315
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
>
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Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 07:46:45 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Carl VanWormer <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Carl VanWormer <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Freeze Spray Trouble Shooting
X-To: Brian Ellis <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
According to the site:
http://www.emsdiasum.com/ems/clean/duster.html
The stuff I'm using claims "100% ozone-safe pressurized duster products".
Since I turn the cans upside down (or refill my quick-freeze cans for a more
convenient spraying position), am I being more gentle to the environment?
If so, we can get down to the real question of "am I wrecking my electronics
systems by using quick-freeze for troubleshooting?"
Carl Van Wormer
Cipher Systems
1815 NW 169th Place, Suite 5010
Beaverton, OR 97006
Phone (503)-617-7447 Fax (503)-617-6550
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Ellis [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 2:52 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Freeze Spray Trouble Shooting
Bev
I agree PFCs are the worst climate changers (with SF6) that exist. Some
of them are over 10,000 times worse than CO2. As a rule of thumb, 6
freezing cans which contain a PFC gas would have as much effect on
climate change as a medium car over its whole lifetime (horrific
thought). Furthermore, there will still be the contents of two of those
cans in the atmosphere 40-odd generations from now (assuming man lives
for another 40 generations!). However, I think most freezing cans
contain HFC-134a, which is bad enough but not as bad as PFCs. Some may
still contain HCFC-22 which is just as bad AND an ozone depleter, to
boot, but is not phased out under the Montreal Protocol until 2010 (some
countries may phase it out sooner).
Brian
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Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 07:57:35 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
peter lee <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: peter lee <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: 0402 stencil apperture design
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Has anyone used a "D"-shape 0402 land pattern on their
design?
The pad dimensions are 18x19mils (semi-circle on the
other ends) and 16mil spacing between the 2 pads.
What would be the stencil apperture recommendation for
the above design? We've used round pads for 0402s and
15% apperture reduction before.
Rgds,
Peter
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
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Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 11:47:24 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: George Milad <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Immersion Gold Vs Immersion Tin for 0201 landpatterns
MIME-Version: 1.0
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boundary="part1_4d.1d32fb53.29fad08c_boundary"
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Tuan,
Could you clarify the "Immersion Gold" process that you are using. Is it
Immersion gold over copper or it immersion gold over nickel over copper?
Immersion Tin is a viable alternative for your application. However the
thickness required will much higher than the 7 - 8 uins that you are
presently using for gold, more like 30 - 40 uins. Tin is realtive
inexpensive and can be easily reworked if shelf life becomes an issue.
George Milad
HDI Consulting
Chairman IPC Plating Committee.
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>Tuan,
<BR>Could you clarify the "Immersion Gold" process that you are using. Is it Immersion gold over copper or it immersion gold over nickel over copper?
<BR>
<BR>Immersion Tin is a viable alternative for your application. However the thickness required will much higher than the 7 - 8 uins that you are presently using for gold, more like 30 - 40 uins. Tin is realtive inexpensive and can be easily reworked if shelf life becomes an issue.
<BR>
<BR>George Milad
<BR>HDI Consulting
<BR>Chairman IPC Plating Committee.
<BR></FONT></HTML>
--part1_4d.1d32fb53.29fad08c_boundary--
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Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 10:47:26 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Ted Stern <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Ted Stern <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: test for film residue
X-To: [log in to unmask]
MIME-Version: 1.0
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--------------191063DEE8720AB4DEFFC5E5
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Steve:
Another potential source of "residue" on copper surfaces during dry
film stripping is absorption of oils - often attributable to antifoam
and/or excess use of antifoam.
Because copper is very oleophilic, minimal contamination may be
problematic (including fingerprints) and can contribute to a variety of
post strip processing problems; incomplete final etching ("copper
spots") being one of the more common defects. The methods suggested by
Rudy would detect this problem.
As a severe (and unusual) example of oil contamination, we once
encountered a customer employing compressed air agitation to dislodge
accumulated dry film particulate in the corners of the dry film stripper
spray sump. The air was introduced when the line was idle to improve
continuous dry film particulate filtration. The customer had been
employing the process for quite some time when random copper spots began
to be observed. If the stripper was replaced, the problem disappeared;
only to reoccur in 1-2 days. To make a long story short, it was
determined (after eliminating anti-foam, checking for tin in the bath
and on panels, addressing copper oxidation, examining rinse water
quality, dry film leaching in the alkaline etch, etc.) a leaking seal in
the air compressor was contaminating the stripper sump with minute
volumes of oil, but enough to contaminate the copper surface and inhibit
alkaline etching.
Regards,
Ted
Rudy Sedlak wrote:
> In a message dated 4.25.02 12:23:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> [log in to unmask] writes:
>
>
>
>> Does anyone know of a test to look for film/stripper residue after
>> copper
>> stripping.
>
> Assume you mean after stripping film from Copper?
>
> Stripper residue is a tough one, and not real likely to be an issue.
>
> Tarnish could be another issue that is very difficult to test for
> except by sight. Depending on stripper, this could be
> significant....the clue is, if the problem gets worse as the stripper
> chemistry gets older, it is quite possibly tarnish...
>
> Film residue is the most likely residue. One way to test that is a
> good test, but, can make your test board need rework is to drop on an
> immersion plating solution. Two different ones are common. Some
> people use immersion Tin to test if the surface is clean. A drop
> should plate uniformly, and adherently. Another test is to drop on
> Silver Nitrate solution...usually use the stuff that is used for
> titration in the lab. The surface should essentially immediately turn
> black, and it should be adherent.
>
> Another residue problem that can occur, and especially in old stripper
> chemistry, is immersion Tin residues....this does not relate to the
> test above. Rather, your stripper chemistry can pickup Tin from the
> oxide on the plating on outerlayers, and redeposit this on the Copper
> next to it. The potential for this problem is magnified tremendously
> if you strip in a tank, rather than exclusively in sprays, and can be
> strongly affected by the condition of the Tin plating solution. If
> your Tin electroplating solution looks very milky, this is disperse
> Tin oxide, which co-deposits with the Tin metal, then easily dissolves
> in certain kinds of stripper chemistry, and redeposits, sometimes
> even is sprays, on the adjacent Copper.
>
> The film residues have become an especial problem in recent years, as
> the new generation of photoresists, which stick VERY well, require
> specially formulated types of stripper chemistry.
>
> I probably have told you more than you want to know, but, in case I
> haven't, you can call me to discuss it.
>
> Rudy Sedlak
> RD Chemical Company 650-962-8004
--------------191063DEE8720AB4DEFFC5E5
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
Steve:
<p>Another potential source of "residue" on copper surfaces during
dry film stripping is absorption of oils - often attributable to antifoam
and/or excess use of antifoam.
<br>Because copper is very oleophilic, minimal contamination may
be problematic (including fingerprints) and can contribute to a variety
of post strip processing problems; incomplete final etching ("copper spots")
being one of the more common defects. The methods suggested by Rudy
would detect this problem.
<p>As a severe (and unusual) example of oil contamination, we once encountered
a customer employing compressed air agitation to dislodge accumulated dry
film particulate in the corners of the dry film stripper spray sump.
The air was introduced when the line was idle to improve continuous
dry film particulate filtration. The customer had been employing
the process for quite some time when random copper spots began to be observed.
If the stripper was replaced, the problem disappeared; only to reoccur
in 1-2 days. To make a long story short, it was determined (after
eliminating anti-foam, checking for tin in the bath and on panels, addressing
copper oxidation, examining rinse water quality, dry film leaching in the
alkaline etch, etc.) a leaking seal in the air compressor was contaminating
the stripper sump with minute volumes of oil, but enough to contaminate
the copper surface and inhibit alkaline etching.
<p>Regards,
<br>Ted
<p>Rudy Sedlak wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>In a message dated
4.25.02 12:23:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [log in to unmask] writes:</font></font>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Does
anyone know of a test to look for film/stripper residue after copper</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>stripping.</font></font></blockquote>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Assume you mean after stripping film
from Copper?</font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Stripper residue is a tough one, and
not real likely to be an issue.</font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Tarnish could be another issue that
is very difficult to test for except by sight. Depending on
stripper, this could be significant....the clue is, if the problem gets
worse as the stripper chemistry gets older, it is quite possibly tarnish...</font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Film residue is the most likely residue.
One way to test that is a good test, but, can make your test board need
rework is to drop on an immersion plating solution. Two different
ones are common. Some people use immersion Tin to test if the surface
is clean. A drop should plate uniformly, and adherently. Another
test is to drop on Silver Nitrate solution...usually use the stuff that
is used for titration in the lab. The surface should essentially
immediately turn black, and it should be adherent.</font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Another residue problem that can occur,
and especially in old stripper chemistry, is immersion Tin residues....this
does not relate to the test above. Rather, your stripper chemistry
can pickup Tin from the oxide on the plating on outerlayers, and redeposit
this on the Copper next to it. The potential for this problem
is magnified tremendously if you strip in a tank, rather than exclusively
in sprays, and can be strongly affected by the condition of the Tin plating
solution. If your Tin electroplating solution looks very milky, this
is disperse Tin oxide, which co-deposits with the Tin metal, then easily
dissolves in certain kinds of stripper chemistry, and redeposits,
sometimes even is sprays, on the adjacent Copper.</font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>The film residues have become an especial
problem in recent years, as the new generation of photoresists, which stick
VERY well, require specially formulated types of stripper chemistry.</font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>I probably have told you more than
you want to know, but, in case I haven't, you can call me to discuss it.</font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Rudy Sedlak</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>RD Chemical Company 650-962-8004</font></font></blockquote>
</html>
--------------191063DEE8720AB4DEFFC5E5--
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Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 08:58:11 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Mcmaster, Michael" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Mcmaster, Michael" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Via Plug
X-To: John Foster <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
John
The DuPont CB-100 will increase the amount of heat that can be conducted
through the barrel. My experience with it that most people overestimate
what it can do. I've done calculations that show for a 0.020" drilled hole
with 0.001" copper barrel, adding CB-100 only increases the amount of heat
by less than 5%. The reason is the CB-100 has a thermal conductivity of 5.23
W/mK vs 395 W/mK for copper. Even though CB-100 makes up the majority of
the cross sectional area, it only adds a little to the "thermal" cross
section.
I always recommend that potential users of this technology run the numbers
themselves and balance the potential cost increase with the improved
performance.
> ----------
> From: John Foster[SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Reply To: TechNet E-Mail Forum.;John Foster
> Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 12:06 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] Via Plug
>
> Hello, I am new to this listserver. I must say that it is very
> informative. I wish I had known of it long ago.
>
> I have a question about via plugging. Right now
> our board vendor is doing our via plugs with
> I guess with a standard epoxy. We are trying
> to find a solution that would give us a much
> better thermal performance.
>
> We are looking at silver epoxy and this
> material from Dupont. Does anyone know of
> some material that would give us a really good
> thermal performance. We are in a commercial
> environment. So the material does not have to
> meet industrial specs.
>
> Any input on this matter would be greatly '
> appreciated.
>
> Thank You
>
> John Foster
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 08:58:34 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Mcmaster, Michael" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Mcmaster, Michael" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Removal of Cured Nomenclature Ink
X-To: "Furrow, Robert Gordon (Bob)" <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Not chemistry, but light, specifically a laser, would be the best approach
to doing this, especially if the unwanted nomen ink is over copper.
> ----------
> From: Furrow, Robert Gordon (Bob)[SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Reply To: TechNet E-Mail Forum.;Furrow, Robert Gordon (Bob)
> Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 12:44 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] Removal of Cured Nomenclature Ink
>
> Hi TechNet,
>
> I have been asked what chemical(s) would be required to remove cured
> nomenclature ink (also known as silkscreen) from a bare board without
> damaging the board itself. I am assuming it is an epoxy ink, but I do not
> know the exact formulation. Any input is appreciated. I should know the
> exact formulation of the applied nomenclature ink tomorrow, but thought
> that
> maybe there is a generic answer.
>
> Thanks,
> Robert Furrow
> Printed Wiring Board Engineer
> Supply Chain Networks
> Lucent Technologies
> 978-960-3224 [log in to unmask]
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 09:27:30 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
David Douthit <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: David Douthit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Freeze Spray Trouble Shooting
X-To: Carl VanWormer <[log in to unmask]>
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Carl,
I quit using "freeze cans" for troubleshooting because they did not work very well particularly on
conformally coating products.
When a "thermal failure" occurs it happens at a particular temperature or during a specific temperature
change. Because polymers
require much more time to change temperatures I discovered that freeze mist would "shoot by" or run
past the thermal failure point.
It would then require a long time to stabilize the circuit and try again. I used the EXair because I
could control
the temperature change by varying the distance from the nozzle to the circuit, had an endless supply of
"cold", air and very little if any
frost/moisture on the circuit. I discovered that 90% of the thermal failures could be "found" by
recreating the thermal conditions at time of failure and gradually "bumping" the temperature around
this point. I seldom had to go more than + 20 degrees C from the estimated thermal fail point to
recreate the failure.
Conformal coatings will "hold" joints in place until a certain thermal point is reached. Usually this
is a "window" because as the coating dimensions change
the joint will "make and break" contact.
Hope this helps!
David A. Douthit
Manager
LoCan LLC
Carl VanWormer wrote:
> According to the site:
> http://www.emsdiasum.com/ems/clean/duster.html
> The stuff I'm using claims "100% ozone-safe pressurized duster products".
>
> Since I turn the cans upside down (or refill my quick-freeze cans for a more
> convenient spraying position), am I being more gentle to the environment?
> If so, we can get down to the real question of "am I wrecking my electronics
> systems by using quick-freeze for troubleshooting?"
>
> Carl Van Wormer
> Cipher Systems
> 1815 NW 169th Place, Suite 5010
> Beaverton, OR 97006
> Phone (503)-617-7447 Fax (503)-617-6550
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian Ellis [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 2:52 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Freeze Spray Trouble Shooting
>
> Bev
>
> I agree PFCs are the worst climate changers (with SF6) that exist. Some
> of them are over 10,000 times worse than CO2. As a rule of thumb, 6
> freezing cans which contain a PFC gas would have as much effect on
> climate change as a medium car over its whole lifetime (horrific
> thought). Furthermore, there will still be the contents of two of those
> cans in the atmosphere 40-odd generations from now (assuming man lives
> for another 40 generations!). However, I think most freezing cans
> contain HFC-134a, which is bad enough but not as bad as PFCs. Some may
> still contain HCFC-22 which is just as bad AND an ozone depleter, to
> boot, but is not phased out under the Montreal Protocol until 2010 (some
> countries may phase it out sooner).
>
> Brian
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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<html>
Carl,
<p>I quit using "freeze cans" for troubleshooting because they did not
work very well particularly on conformally coating products.
<p>When a "thermal failure" occurs it happens at a particular temperature
or during a specific temperature change. Because polymers
<br>require much more time to change temperatures I discovered that freeze
mist would "shoot by" or run past the thermal failure point.
<br>It would then require a long time to stabilize the circuit and try
again. I used the EXair because I could control
<br>the temperature change by varying the distance from the nozzle to the
circuit, had an endless supply of "cold", air and very little if any
<br>frost/moisture on the circuit. I discovered that 90% of the thermal
failures could be "found" by recreating the thermal conditions at time
of failure and gradually "bumping" the temperature around this point. I
seldom had to go more than <u>+</u> 20 degrees C from the estimated thermal
fail point to recreate the failure.
<p>Conformal coatings will "hold" joints in place until a certain thermal
point is reached. Usually this is a "window" because as the coating dimensions
change
<br>the joint will "make and break" contact.
<p>Hope this helps!
<p>David A. Douthit
<br>Manager
<br>LoCan LLC
<br>
<p>Carl VanWormer wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>According to the site:
<br><a href="http://www.emsdiasum.com/ems/clean/duster.html">http://www.emsdiasum.com/ems/clean/duster.html</a>
<br>The stuff I'm using claims "100% ozone-safe pressurized duster products".
<p>Since I turn the cans upside down (or refill my quick-freeze cans for
a more
<br>convenient spraying position), am I being more gentle to the environment?
<br>If so, we can get down to the real question of "am I wrecking my electronics
<br>systems by using quick-freeze for troubleshooting?"
<p>Carl Van Wormer
<br>Cipher Systems
<br>1815 NW 169th Place, Suite 5010
<br>Beaverton, OR 97006
<br>Phone (503)-617-7447 Fax (503)-617-6550
<p>-----Original Message-----
<br>From: Brian Ellis [<a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]</a>]
<br>Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 2:52 AM
<br>To: [log in to unmask]
<br>Subject: Re: [TN] Freeze Spray Trouble Shooting
<p>Bev
<p>I agree PFCs are the worst climate changers (with SF6) that exist. Some
<br>of them are over 10,000 times worse than CO2. As a rule of thumb, 6
<br>freezing cans which contain a PFC gas would have as much effect on
<br>climate change as a medium car over its whole lifetime (horrific
<br>thought). Furthermore, there will still be the contents of two of those
<br>cans in the atmosphere 40-odd generations from now (assuming man lives
<br>for another 40 generations!). However, I think most freezing cans
<br>contain HFC-134a, which is bad enough but not as bad as PFCs. Some
may
<br>still contain HCFC-22 which is just as bad AND an ozone depleter, to
<br>boot, but is not phased out under the Montreal Protocol until 2010
(some
<br>countries may phase it out sooner).
<p>Brian
<p>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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<br>information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-509-9700
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Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 12:21:33 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Bev Christian <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Bev Christian <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Freeze Spray Trouble Shooting
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Carl,
PFCs and HFC have no chlorine so they are not ozone depleters, but that
doesn't mean they are not global warmers. I do not have the time to look at
your particular material right now. Sorry.
regards,
Bev Christian
Research in Motion
-----Original Message-----
From: Carl VanWormer [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: April 26, 2002 10:47 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Freeze Spray Trouble Shooting
According to the site:
http://www.emsdiasum.com/ems/clean/duster.html
The stuff I'm using claims "100% ozone-safe pressurized duster products".
Since I turn the cans upside down (or refill my quick-freeze cans for a more
convenient spraying position), am I being more gentle to the environment?
If so, we can get down to the real question of "am I wrecking my electronics
systems by using quick-freeze for troubleshooting?"
Carl Van Wormer
Cipher Systems
1815 NW 169th Place, Suite 5010
Beaverton, OR 97006
Phone (503)-617-7447 Fax (503)-617-6550
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Ellis [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 2:52 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Freeze Spray Trouble Shooting
Bev
I agree PFCs are the worst climate changers (with SF6) that exist. Some
of them are over 10,000 times worse than CO2. As a rule of thumb, 6
freezing cans which contain a PFC gas would have as much effect on
climate change as a medium car over its whole lifetime (horrific
thought). Furthermore, there will still be the contents of two of those
cans in the atmosphere 40-odd generations from now (assuming man lives
for another 40 generations!). However, I think most freezing cans
contain HFC-134a, which is bad enough but not as bad as PFCs. Some may
still contain HCFC-22 which is just as bad AND an ozone depleter, to
boot, but is not phased out under the Montreal Protocol until 2010 (some
countries may phase it out sooner).
Brian
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Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 11:36:06 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Houston, Terri" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Houston, Terri" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Microvias and rigid-flex in one board shop?
Hi folks,
I'm looking for a board shop with actual experience in building a 14+ layer,
rigid-flex board that has microvias in the rigid sections.
It seems the combination of these two features is hard to find at one
supplier, even though I'm only looking for a small quantity of prototypes.
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated--even self-marketing would be
accepted (off TechNet, please).
Thanks in advance,
Terri
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Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 18:05:27 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Hinners Hans M Civ WRALC/LUGE <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Hinners Hans M Civ WRALC/LUGE <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: test for film residue
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Hi Steve,
You might try looking at the panels under UV light or a water break test.
Hans
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hans M. Hinners
Electronics Engineer
Warner Robins - Air Logistics Center (WR-ALC/LUGE)
226 Cochran Street
Robins AFB GA 31098-1622
mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Com: (478) 926 - 5224
Fax: (478) 926 - 4911
DSN Prefix: 468
-----Original Message-----
From: Ted Stern [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 11:47 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] test for film residue
Steve:
Another potential source of "residue" on copper surfaces during dry film
stripping is absorption of oils - often attributable to antifoam and/or
excess use of antifoam.
Because copper is very oleophilic, minimal contamination may be problematic
(including fingerprints) and can contribute to a variety of post strip
processing problems; incomplete final etching ("copper spots") being one of
the more common defects. The methods suggested by Rudy would detect this
problem.
As a severe (and unusual) example of oil contamination, we once encountered
a customer employing compressed air agitation to dislodge accumulated dry
film particulate in the corners of the dry film stripper spray sump. The
air was introduced when the line was idle to improve continuous dry film
particulate filtration. The customer had been employing the process for
quite some time when random copper spots began to be observed. If the
stripper was replaced, the problem disappeared; only to reoccur in 1-2 days.
To make a long story short, it was determined (after eliminating anti-foam,
checking for tin in the bath and on panels, addressing copper oxidation,
examining rinse water quality, dry film leaching in the alkaline etch, etc.)
a leaking seal in the air compressor was contaminating the stripper sump
with minute volumes of oil, but enough to contaminate the copper surface and
inhibit alkaline etching.
Regards,
Ted
Rudy Sedlak wrote:
In a message dated 4.25.02 12:23:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [log in to unmask]
writes:
Does anyone know of a test to look for film/stripper residue after copper
stripping.
Assume you mean after stripping film from Copper?
Stripper residue is a tough one, and not real likely to be an issue.
Tarnish could be another issue that is very difficult to test for except by
sight. Depending on stripper, this could be significant....the clue is, if
the problem gets worse as the stripper chemistry gets older, it is quite
possibly tarnish...
Film residue is the most likely residue. One way to test that is a good
test, but, can make your test board need rework is to drop on an immersion
plating solution. Two different ones are common. Some people use immersion
Tin to test if the surface is clean. A drop should plate uniformly, and
adherently. Another test is to drop on Silver Nitrate solution...usually
use the stuff that is used for titration in the lab. The surface should
essentially immediately turn black, and it should be adherent.
Another residue problem that can occur, and especially in old stripper
chemistry, is immersion Tin residues....this does not relate to the test
above. Rather, your stripper chemistry can pickup Tin from the oxide on the
plating on outerlayers, and redeposit this on the Copper next to it. The
potential for this problem is magnified tremendously if you strip in a tank,
rather than exclusively in sprays, and can be strongly affected by the
condition of the Tin plating solution. If your Tin electroplating solution
looks very milky, this is disperse Tin oxide, which co-deposits with the Tin
metal, then easily dissolves in certain kinds of stripper chemistry, and
redeposits, sometimes even is sprays, on the adjacent Copper.
The film residues have become an especial problem in recent years, as the
new generation of photoresists, which stick VERY well, require specially
formulated types of stripper chemistry.
I probably have told you more than you want to know, but, in case I haven't,
you can call me to discuss it.
Rudy Sedlak
RD Chemical Company 650-962-8004
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<DIV><SPAN class=599240317-26042002><FONT color=#0000ff>Hi
Steve,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=599240317-26042002><FONT
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=599240317-26042002><FONT color=#0000ff>You might try looking at
the panels under UV light or a water break test.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=599240317-26042002><FONT
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=599240317-26042002><FONT color=#0000ff>Hans</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=599240317-26042002><FONT color=#0000ff></FONT><BR><FONT
face=Verdana>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</FONT> <BR><FONT
face=Verdana>Hans M. Hinners</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Verdana>Electronics
Engineer</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Verdana>Warner Robins - Air Logistics Center
(WR-ALC/LUGE)</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Verdana>226 Cochran Street</FONT> <BR><FONT
face=Verdana>Robins AFB GA 31098-1622</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>
<P><FONT face=Verdana><A
href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]</A></FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT face=Verdana>Com: (478) 926 - 5224</FONT> <BR><FONT
face=Verdana>Fax: (478) 926 - 4911</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2>DSN Prefix: 468</FONT> </P></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Ted Stern
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, April 26, 2002 11:47
AM<BR><B>To:</B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [TN] test for film
residue<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>Steve:
<P>Another potential source of "residue" on copper surfaces during dry
film stripping is absorption of oils - often attributable to antifoam and/or
excess use of antifoam. <BR>Because copper is very oleophilic, minimal
contamination may be problematic (including fingerprints) and can contribute
to a variety of post strip processing problems; incomplete final etching
("copper spots") being one of the more common defects. The methods
suggested by Rudy would detect this problem.
<P>As a severe (and unusual) example of oil contamination, we once encountered
a customer employing compressed air agitation to dislodge accumulated dry film
particulate in the corners of the dry film stripper spray sump. The air
was introduced when the line was idle to improve continuous dry film
particulate filtration. The customer had been employing the
process for quite some time when random copper spots began to be
observed. If the stripper was replaced, the problem disappeared; only to
reoccur in 1-2 days. To make a long story short, it was determined
(after eliminating anti-foam, checking for tin in the bath and on panels,
addressing copper oxidation, examining rinse water quality, dry film leaching
in the alkaline etch, etc.) a leaking seal in the air compressor was
contaminating the stripper sump with minute volumes of oil, but enough to
contaminate the copper surface and inhibit alkaline etching.
<P>Regards, <BR>Ted
<P>Rudy Sedlak wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE="CITE"><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=-1>In a message dated
4.25.02 12:23:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [log in to unmask]
writes:</FONT></FONT> <BR> <BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
TYPE="CITE"><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=-1>Does anyone know of a test to
look for film/stripper residue after copper</FONT></FONT> <BR><FONT
face=Arial><FONT size=-1>stripping.</FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=-1>Assume you mean after stripping film from
Copper?</FONT></FONT>
<P><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=-1>Stripper residue is a tough one, and not
real likely to be an issue.</FONT></FONT>
<P><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=-1>Tarnish could be another issue that is
very difficult to test for except by sight. Depending on
stripper, this could be significant....the clue is, if the problem gets
worse as the stripper chemistry gets older, it is quite possibly
tarnish...</FONT></FONT>
<P><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=-1>Film residue is the most likely
residue. One way to test that is a good test, but, can make your test
board need rework is to drop on an immersion plating solution. Two
different ones are common. Some people use immersion Tin to test if
the surface is clean. A drop should plate uniformly, and
adherently. Another test is to drop on Silver Nitrate
solution...usually use the stuff that is used for titration in the
lab. The surface should essentially immediately turn black, and it
should be adherent.</FONT></FONT>
<P><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=-1>Another residue problem that can occur,
and especially in old stripper chemistry, is immersion Tin residues....this
does not relate to the test above. Rather, your stripper chemistry can
pickup Tin from the oxide on the plating on outerlayers, and redeposit this
on the Copper next to it. The potential for this problem is
magnified tremendously if you strip in a tank, rather than exclusively in
sprays, and can be strongly affected by the condition of the Tin plating
solution. If your Tin electroplating solution looks very milky, this
is disperse Tin oxide, which co-deposits with the Tin metal, then easily
dissolves in certain kinds of stripper chemistry, and redeposits,
sometimes even is sprays, on the adjacent Copper.</FONT></FONT>
<P><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=-1>The film residues have become an especial
problem in recent years, as the new generation of photoresists, which stick
VERY well, require specially formulated types of stripper
chemistry.</FONT></FONT>
<P><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=-1>I probably have told you more than you
want to know, but, in case I haven't, you can call me to discuss
it.</FONT></FONT>
<P><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=-1>Rudy Sedlak</FONT></FONT> <BR><FONT
face=Arial><FONT size=-1>RD Chemical Company
650-962-8004</FONT></FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
------_=_NextPart_001_01C1ED44.903723CE--
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Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 13:25:40 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Joseph Spicuzza <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Joseph Spicuzza <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Microvias and rigid-flex in one board shop?
X-To: "Houston, Terri" <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Our shop may be able to fabricate this, but we need more info.
Contact me and I'll forward you to the fab team.
Joseph Spicuzza
Quality Assurance Manager
Advanced Interconnect Products Division
Compunetics, Inc.
PH: 412 858-6166
FX: 412 373-8060
[log in to unmask]
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Houston, Terri
Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 12:36 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Microvias and rigid-flex in one board shop?
Hi folks,
I'm looking for a board shop with actual experience in building a 14+ layer,
rigid-flex board that has microvias in the rigid sections.
It seems the combination of these two features is hard to find at one
supplier, even though I'm only looking for a small quantity of prototypes.
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated--even self-marketing would be
accepted (off TechNet, please).
Thanks in advance,
Terri
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Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 10:26:56 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
peter lee <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: peter lee <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Senju sparkle noclean paste
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Does anyone have experience using this paste. I was
told that it is unstable unless running in N2
environment.
Rgds,
Peter
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/
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Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 10:54:22 -0700
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Ahne Oosterhof <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: 0402 stencil apperture design
X-To: peter lee <[log in to unmask]>
X-cc: Jim <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Hi Peter,
At Plexus they have published a rather extensive report on the causes of
tombstoning. It included some remarks on the incidence of solder balls. Both
problem areas are partially caused by pad design on the board and aperture
design in stencils. (Some say the most significant factors for tombstoning
are pick-and-place accuracy and oven temperature profile.)
To minimize tombstoning the report indicates that pad design has a minimal
impact when using 0402-s, but for 0201-s you want to stay close to the
'normal' size for pad design.
To minimize solder balls it is recommended to change stencil apertures to
home plates. My personal preference (and that of some of our customers) is
to change the aperture to an oval, which has the effect of reducing excess
solder in all four corners of the pads. Sometimes in addition the overall
size is reduced by 1 or 2 mil.
An additional advantage is that the OVAL is a Gerber shape improving data
compactness, data sharing and interpretation reliability and it means that
for a single component there are no 'left' and 'right' or 'top' and 'bottom'
apertures (or D-codes).
Have fun,
Ahne.
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of peter lee
Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 07:58
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] 0402 stencil apperture design
Has anyone used a "D"-shape 0402 land pattern on their
design?
The pad dimensions are 18x19mils (semi-circle on the
other ends) and 16mil spacing between the 2 pads.
What would be the stencil apperture recommendation for
the above design? We've used round pads for 0402s and
15% apperture reduction before.
Rgds,
Peter
__________________________________________________
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Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 11:05:08 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Tuan Bui <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Immersion Gold Vs Immersion Tin for 0201 landpatterns
X-To: [log in to unmask]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Hi George,
The Immersion Gold process that the PCB vendor stated that the Immersion
gold (7-10 micron) over nickel over copper. The Immersion Tin process, as
you have mentioned, is about 44 micron. It is good to hear that the
immersion tin process can be easily/inexpensive reworked when its shelf
live expires.
BTW, thanks for your input.
Tuan Bui
Proc Dev Eng
Conexant Systems Inc.
George Milad
<[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask]
Sent by: TechNet cc:
<[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: [TN] Immersion Gold Vs Immersion Tin for 0201 landpatterns
04/26/2002 08:47
AM
Please respond to
"TechNet E-Mail
Forum."; Please
respond to Gmilad
Tuan,
Could you clarify the "Immersion Gold" process that you are using. Is it
Immersion gold over copper or it immersion gold over nickel over copper?
Immersion Tin is a viable alternative for your application. However the
thickness required will much higher than the 7 - 8 uins that you are
presently using for gold, more like 30 - 40 uins. Tin is realtive
inexpensive and can be easily reworked if shelf life becomes an issue.
George Milad
HDI Consulting
Chairman IPC Plating Committee.
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Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 11:41:58 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Phil Bavaro <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Phil Bavaro <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Senju sparkle noclean paste
X-To: peter lee <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
We have about ten years of experience using Senju solderpaste without any
issues.
You have not stated what specific paste part number you are referring to.
And I am not sure I know what you mean by solderpaste being described as
unstable.
Phil
At 10:26 AM 4/26/2002 -0700, peter lee wrote:
>Does anyone have experience using this paste. I was
>told that it is unstable unless running in N2
>environment.
>
>Rgds,
>Peter
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
>http://games.yahoo.com/
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet
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>SET Technet NOMAIL
>To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to
>[log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest
>Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives
>Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm for additional
>information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-509-9700
>ext.5315
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 15:10:41 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Steve Kelly <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Steve Kelly <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: test for film residue
X-To: Ted Stern <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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boundary="----=_NextPart_000_08F5_01C1ED34.88AD36E0"
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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We etch in Ferric chloride so do not use any tin chemistry - however Rudy's
comments are interesting - we do have an immersion tin line so we can easily
do this test. Thanks Steve Kelly
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Ted Stern
Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 11:47 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] test for film residue
Steve:
Another potential source of "residue" on copper surfaces during dry film
stripping is absorption of oils - often attributable to antifoam and/or
excess use of antifoam.
Because copper is very oleophilic, minimal contamination may be
problematic (including fingerprints) and can contribute to a variety of post
strip processing problems; incomplete final etching ("copper spots") being
one of the more common defects. The methods suggested by Rudy would detect
this problem.
As a severe (and unusual) example of oil contamination, we once
encountered a customer employing compressed air agitation to dislodge
accumulated dry film particulate in the corners of the dry film stripper
spray sump. The air was introduced when the line was idle to improve
continuous dry film particulate filtration. The customer had been
employing the process for quite some time when random copper spots began to
be observed. If the stripper was replaced, the problem disappeared; only to
reoccur in 1-2 days. To make a long story short, it was determined (after
eliminating anti-foam, checking for tin in the bath and on panels,
addressing copper oxidation, examining rinse water quality, dry film
leaching in the alkaline etch, etc.) a leaking seal in the air compressor
was contaminating the stripper sump with minute volumes of oil, but enough
to contaminate the copper surface and inhibit alkaline etching.
Regards,
Ted
Rudy Sedlak wrote:
In a message dated 4.25.02 12:23:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
Does anyone know of a test to look for film/stripper residue after
copper
stripping.
Assume you mean after stripping film from Copper?
Stripper residue is a tough one, and not real likely to be an issue.
Tarnish could be another issue that is very difficult to test for except
by sight. Depending on stripper, this could be significant....the clue is,
if the problem gets worse as the stripper chemistry gets older, it is quite
possibly tarnish...
Film residue is the most likely residue. One way to test that is a good
test, but, can make your test board need rework is to drop on an immersion
plating solution. Two different ones are common. Some people use immersion
Tin to test if the surface is clean. A drop should plate uniformly, and
adherently. Another test is to drop on Silver Nitrate solution...usually
use the stuff that is used for titration in the lab. The surface should
essentially immediately turn black, and it should be adherent.
Another residue problem that can occur, and especially in old stripper
chemistry, is immersion Tin residues....this does not relate to the test
above. Rather, your stripper chemistry can pickup Tin from the oxide on the
plating on outerlayers, and redeposit this on the Copper next to it. The
potential for this problem is magnified tremendously if you strip in a tank,
rather than exclusively in sprays, and can be strongly affected by the
condition of the Tin plating solution. If your Tin electroplating solution
looks very milky, this is disperse Tin oxide, which co-deposits with the Tin
metal, then easily dissolves in certain kinds of stripper chemistry, and
redeposits, sometimes even is sprays, on the adjacent Copper.
The film residues have become an especial problem in recent years, as
the new generation of photoresists, which stick VERY well, require specially
formulated types of stripper chemistry.
I probably have told you more than you want to know, but, in case I
haven't, you can call me to discuss it.
Rudy Sedlak
RD Chemical Company 650-962-8004
------=_NextPart_000_08F5_01C1ED34.88AD36E0
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<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D087020919-26042002>We=20
etch in Ferric chloride so do not use any tin chemistry - however Rudy's =
comments are interesting - we do have an immersion tin line so we can =
easily do=20
this test. Thanks Steve Kelly</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV align=3Dleft class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> TechNet=20
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Ted Stern<BR><B>Sent:</B> =
Friday,=20
April 26, 2002 11:47 AM<BR><B>To:</B> =
[log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:=20
[TN] test for film residue<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>Steve:=20
<P>Another potential source of "residue" on copper surfaces =
during dry=20
film stripping is absorption of oils - often attributable to antifoam =
and/or=20
excess use of antifoam. <BR>Because copper is very oleophilic, =
minimal=20
contamination may be problematic (including fingerprints) and can =
contribute=20
to a variety of post strip processing problems; incomplete final =
etching=20
("copper spots") being one of the more common defects. The =
methods=20
suggested by Rudy would detect this problem.=20
<P>As a severe (and unusual) example of oil contamination, we once =
encountered=20
a customer employing compressed air agitation to dislodge accumulated =
dry film=20
particulate in the corners of the dry film stripper spray sump. =
The air=20
was introduced when the line was idle to improve continuous dry =
film=20
particulate filtration. The customer had been employing =
the=20
process for quite some time when random copper spots began to be=20
observed. If the stripper was replaced, the problem disappeared; =
only to=20
reoccur in 1-2 days. To make a long story short, it was =
determined=20
(after eliminating anti-foam, checking for tin in the bath and on =
panels,=20
addressing copper oxidation, examining rinse water quality, dry film =
leaching=20
in the alkaline etch, etc.) a leaking seal in the air compressor was=20
contaminating the stripper sump with minute volumes of oil, but enough =
to=20
contaminate the copper surface and inhibit alkaline etching.=20
<P>Regards, <BR>Ted=20
<P>Rudy Sedlak wrote:=20
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3D"CITE"><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1>In a =
message dated=20
4.25.02 12:23:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [log in to unmask]
writes:</FONT></FONT> <BR> <BR> =20
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"=20
TYPE=3D"CITE"><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1>Does anyone know of =
a test to=20
look for film/stripper residue after copper</FONT></FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1>stripping.</FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1>Assume you mean after =
stripping film from=20
Copper?</FONT></FONT>=20
<P><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1>Stripper residue is a tough =
one, and not=20
real likely to be an issue.</FONT></FONT>=20
<P><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1>Tarnish could be another issue =
that is=20
very difficult to test for except by sight. Depending on =
stripper, this could be significant....the clue is, if the problem =
gets=20
worse as the stripper chemistry gets older, it is quite possibly=20
tarnish...</FONT></FONT>=20
<P><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1>Film residue is the most =
likely=20
residue. One way to test that is a good test, but, can make =
your test=20
board need rework is to drop on an immersion plating solution. =
Two=20
different ones are common. Some people use immersion Tin to =
test if=20
the surface is clean. A drop should plate uniformly, and=20
adherently. Another test is to drop on Silver Nitrate=20
solution...usually use the stuff that is used for titration in the=20
lab. The surface should essentially immediately turn black, =
and it=20
should be adherent.</FONT></FONT>=20
<P><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1>Another residue problem that =
can occur,=20
and especially in old stripper chemistry, is immersion Tin =
residues....this=20
does not relate to the test above. Rather, your stripper =
chemistry can=20
pickup Tin from the oxide on the plating on outerlayers, and =
redeposit this=20
on the Copper next to it. The potential for this problem =
is=20
magnified tremendously if you strip in a tank, rather than =
exclusively in=20
sprays, and can be strongly affected by the condition of the Tin =
plating=20
solution. If your Tin electroplating solution looks very =
milky, this=20
is disperse Tin oxide, which co-deposits with the Tin metal, then =
easily=20
dissolves in certain kinds of stripper chemistry, and =
redeposits,=20
sometimes even is sprays, on the adjacent Copper.</FONT></FONT>=20
<P><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1>The film residues have become =
an especial=20
problem in recent years, as the new generation of photoresists, =
which stick=20
VERY well, require specially formulated types of stripper=20
chemistry.</FONT></FONT>=20
<P><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1>I probably have told you more =
than you=20
want to know, but, in case I haven't, you can call me to discuss=20
it.</FONT></FONT>=20
<P><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1>Rudy Sedlak</FONT></FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1>RD Chemical Company=20
650-962-8004</FONT></FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_08F5_01C1ED34.88AD36E0--
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To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in
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=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 15:13:56 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Steve Kelly <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Steve Kelly <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: test for film residue
X-To: Hinners Hans M Civ WRALC/LUGE <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_08FB_01C1ED34.FC8C4CE0"
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Water break to us does not seem sensitive enough especially when we are
looking at 50-75 micron lines and spaces - will check out the UV light idea.
Thanks. Steve Kelly
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Hinners Hans M Civ
WRALC/LUGE
Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 1:05 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] test for film residue
Hi Steve,
You might try looking at the panels under UV light or a water break test.
Hans
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hans M. Hinners
Electronics Engineer
Warner Robins - Air Logistics Center (WR-ALC/LUGE)
226 Cochran Street
Robins AFB GA 31098-1622
mailto:[log in to unmask]
Com: (478) 926 - 5224
Fax: (478) 926 - 4911
DSN Prefix: 468
-----Original Message-----
From: Ted Stern [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 11:47 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] test for film residue
Steve:
Another potential source of "residue" on copper surfaces during dry
film stripping is absorption of oils - often attributable to antifoam and/or
excess use of antifoam.
Because copper is very oleophilic, minimal contamination may be
problematic (including fingerprints) and can contribute to a variety of post
strip processing problems; incomplete final etching ("copper spots") being
one of the more common defects. The methods suggested by Rudy would detect
this problem.
As a severe (and unusual) example of oil contamination, we once
encountered a customer employing compressed air agitation to dislodge
accumulated dry film particulate in the corners of the dry film stripper
spray sump. The air was introduced when the line was idle to improve
continuous dry film particulate filtration. The customer had been
employing the process for quite some time when random copper spots began to
be observed. If the stripper was replaced, the problem disappeared; only to
reoccur in 1-2 days. To make a long story short, it was determined (after
eliminating anti-foam, checking for tin in the bath and on panels,
addressing copper oxidation, examining rinse water quality, dry film
leaching in the alkaline etch, etc.) a leaking seal in the air compressor
was contaminating the stripper sump with minute volumes of oil, but enough
to contaminate the copper surface and inhibit alkaline etching.
Regards,
Ted
Rudy Sedlak wrote:
In a message dated 4.25.02 12:23:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
Does anyone know of a test to look for film/stripper residue after
copper
stripping.
Assume you mean after stripping film from Copper?
Stripper residue is a tough one, and not real likely to be an issue.
Tarnish could be another issue that is very difficult to test for
except by sight. Depending on stripper, this could be significant....the
clue is, if the problem gets worse as the stripper chemistry gets older, it
is quite possibly tarnish...
Film residue is the most likely residue. One way to test that is a
good test, but, can make your test board need rework is to drop on an
immersion plating solution. Two different ones are common. Some people use
immersion Tin to test if the surface is clean. A drop should plate
uniformly, and adherently. Another test is to drop on Silver Nitrate
solution...usually use the stuff that is used for titration in the lab. The
surface should essentially immediately turn black, and it should be
adherent.
Another residue problem that can occur, and especially in old stripper
chemistry, is immersion Tin residues....this does not relate to the test
above. Rather, your stripper chemistry can pickup Tin from the oxide on the
plating on outerlayers, and redeposit this on the Copper next to it. The
potential for this problem is magnified tremendously if you strip in a tank,
rather than exclusively in sprays, and can be strongly affected by the
condition of the Tin plating solution. If your Tin electroplating solution
looks very milky, this is disperse Tin oxide, which co-deposits with the Tin
metal, then easily dissolves in certain kinds of stripper chemistry, and
redeposits, sometimes even is sprays, on the adjacent Copper.
The film residues have become an especial problem in recent years, as
the new generation of photoresists, which stick VERY well, require specially
formulated types of stripper chemistry.
I probably have told you more than you want to know, but, in case I
haven't, you can call me to discuss it.
Rudy Sedlak
RD Chemical Company 650-962-8004
------=_NextPart_000_08FB_01C1ED34.FC8C4CE0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.3315.2870" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D750461219-26042002>Water=20
break to us does not seem sensitive enough especially when we are =
looking at=20
50-75 micron lines and spaces - will check out the UV light idea. =
Thanks. Steve=20
Kelly</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV align=3Dleft class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> TechNet=20
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Hinners Hans M Civ=20
WRALC/LUGE<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, April 26, 2002 1:05 =
PM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
[log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [TN] test for film=20
residue<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D599240317-26042002><FONT color=3D#0000ff>Hi=20
Steve,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D599240317-26042002><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D599240317-26042002><FONT color=3D#0000ff>You might =
try looking=20
at the panels under UV light or a water break =
test.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D599240317-26042002><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D599240317-26042002><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff>Hans</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D599240317-26042002><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff></FONT><BR><FONT=20
face=3DVerdana>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
face=3DVerdana>Hans M. Hinners</FONT> <BR><FONT =
face=3DVerdana>Electronics=20
Engineer</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DVerdana>Warner Robins - Air Logistics =
Center=20
(WR-ALC/LUGE)</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DVerdana>226 Cochran =
Street</FONT>=20
<BR><FONT face=3DVerdana>Robins AFB GA 31098-1622</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>
<P><FONT face=3DVerdana><A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]
mil</A></FONT>=20
</P>
<P><FONT face=3DVerdana>Com: (478) 926 - 5224</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
face=3DVerdana>Fax: (478) 926 - 4911</FONT> <BR><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>DSN Prefix: 468</FONT> </P></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV align=3Dleft class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Ted Stern=20
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, April 26, 2002 =
11:47=20
AM<BR><B>To:</B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [TN] test =
for film=20
residue<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>Steve:=20
<P>Another potential source of "residue" on copper surfaces =
during dry=20
film stripping is absorption of oils - often attributable to =
antifoam and/or=20
excess use of antifoam. <BR>Because copper is very oleophilic, =
minimal=20
contamination may be problematic (including fingerprints) and can =
contribute=20
to a variety of post strip processing problems; incomplete final =
etching=20
("copper spots") being one of the more common defects. The =
methods=20
suggested by Rudy would detect this problem.=20
<P>As a severe (and unusual) example of oil contamination, we once=20
encountered a customer employing compressed air agitation to =
dislodge=20
accumulated dry film particulate in the corners of the dry film =
stripper=20
spray sump. The air was introduced when the line was =
idle to=20
improve continuous dry film particulate filtration. The =
customer=20
had been employing the process for quite some time when random =
copper spots=20
began to be observed. If the stripper was replaced, the =
problem=20
disappeared; only to reoccur in 1-2 days. To make a long story =
short,=20
it was determined (after eliminating anti-foam, checking for tin in =
the bath=20
and on panels, addressing copper oxidation, examining rinse water =
quality,=20
dry film leaching in the alkaline etch, etc.) a leaking seal in the =
air=20
compressor was contaminating the stripper sump with minute volumes =
of oil,=20
but enough to contaminate the copper surface and inhibit alkaline =
etching.=20
<P>Regards, <BR>Ted=20
<P>Rudy Sedlak wrote:=20
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3D"CITE"><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1>In a =
message dated=20
4.25.02 12:23:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [log in to unmask]
writes:</FONT></FONT> <BR> <BR> =20
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"=20
TYPE=3D"CITE"><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1>Does anyone know =
of a test to=20
look for film/stripper residue after copper</FONT></FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
face=3DArial><FONT =
size=3D-1>stripping.</FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1>Assume you mean after =
stripping film=20
from Copper?</FONT></FONT>=20
<P><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1>Stripper residue is a tough =
one, and not=20
real likely to be an issue.</FONT></FONT>=20
<P><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1>Tarnish could be another =
issue that is=20
very difficult to test for except by sight. Depending =
on=20
stripper, this could be significant....the clue is, if the problem =
gets=20
worse as the stripper chemistry gets older, it is quite possibly=20
tarnish...</FONT></FONT>=20
<P><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1>Film residue is the most =
likely=20
residue. One way to test that is a good test, but, can make =
your=20
test board need rework is to drop on an immersion plating =
solution. =20
Two different ones are common. Some people use immersion Tin =
to test=20
if the surface is clean. A drop should plate uniformly, and=20
adherently. Another test is to drop on Silver Nitrate=20
solution...usually use the stuff that is used for titration in the =
lab. The surface should essentially immediately turn black, =
and it=20
should be adherent.</FONT></FONT>=20
<P><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1>Another residue problem that =
can occur,=20
and especially in old stripper chemistry, is immersion Tin=20
residues....this does not relate to the test above. Rather, =
your=20
stripper chemistry can pickup Tin from the oxide on the plating on =
outerlayers, and redeposit this on the Copper next to =
it. The=20
potential for this problem is magnified tremendously if you strip =
in a=20
tank, rather than exclusively in sprays, and can be strongly =
affected by=20
the condition of the Tin plating solution. If your Tin=20
electroplating solution looks very milky, this is disperse Tin =
oxide,=20
which co-deposits with the Tin metal, then easily dissolves in =
certain=20
kinds of stripper chemistry, and redeposits, sometimes even =
is=20
sprays, on the adjacent Copper.</FONT></FONT>=20
<P><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1>The film residues have =
become an=20
especial problem in recent years, as the new generation of =
photoresists,=20
which stick VERY well, require specially formulated types of =
stripper=20
chemistry.</FONT></FONT>=20
<P><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1>I probably have told you =
more than you=20
want to know, but, in case I haven't, you can call me to discuss=20
it.</FONT></FONT>=20
<P><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1>Rudy Sedlak</FONT></FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1>RD Chemical Company=20
=
650-962-8004</FONT></FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BO=
DY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_08FB_01C1ED34.FC8C4CE0--
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=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 14:51:28 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Microvias and rigid-flex in one board shop?
X-To: [log in to unmask]
Terri,
Don't mean to barge in like this but in the "good old" days of wine, roses,
and the MX missile system as line was drawn in the sand, or rigid flex as it
was. The MX never flew because it had a total of 79 layers of rigid flex
circuitry. One supporting board had 22 layers and continually failed.
It delaminated in several ways and areas. TMA analysis revealed delamination
way below expectations due to the acrylic adhesive used then. Later, after
the program was scrapped, folks like Marty Jawitz (anyone remember Marty) at
Litton Guidance Systems came up with a requirement limiting all rigid flex
designs to 11 layers.
Have some pretty ugly pictures from that era. Probably you and others have
answers overcoming the adhesive problem, cold flowing at room temperature
(Tg of about 70 or so F.). Sure like to get updated on what those answers
might be.
MoonMan
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 16:10:03 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Roger Stoops <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Roger Stoops <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: 0402 stencil apperture design
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
If memory serves me right (and it normally does not), there was an article
published some years ago that championed oval pads for 0402s. I want to say
somewhere around '92 or '93. (0201s were probably new at that time to the
masses.) I want to say that it was Motorola(tm) that did the studies, and
oval pads and stencil apertures seemed to solve many manufacturing problems
for them. I'll have to rummage through my files one day and find it.
Can not wait until I get to try my hand at some of that itty-bitty stuff,
jealous of those that do...
Best Regards,
Roger M. Stoops, CID [log in to unmask]
TRIMBLE NAVIGATION LIMITED
Engineering and Construction Division
5475 Kellenburger Rd.
Dayton, OH 45424-1099 USA
Telephone: 937 233 8921 800 538 7800 ext. 288
Facsimile: 937 233 7511
http://www.trimble.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Ahne Oosterhof [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 1:54 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] 0402 stencil aperture design
Hi Peter,
At Plexus they have published a rather extensive report on the causes of
tombstoning. It included some remarks on the incidence of solder balls. Both
problem areas are partially caused by pad design on the board and aperture
design in stencils. (Some say the most significant factors for tombstoning
are pick-and-place accuracy and oven temperature profile.)
To minimize tombstoning the report indicates that pad design has a minimal
impact when using 0402-s, but for 0201-s you want to stay close to the
'normal' size for pad design.
To minimize solder balls it is recommended to change stencil apertures to
home plates. My personal preference (and that of some of our customers) is
to change the aperture to an oval, which has the effect of reducing excess
solder in all four corners of the pads. Sometimes in addition the overall
size is reduced by 1 or 2 mil.
An additional advantage is that the OVAL is a Gerber shape improving data
compactness, data sharing and interpretation reliability and it means that
for a single component there are no 'left' and 'right' or 'top' and 'bottom'
apertures (or D-codes).
Have fun,
Ahne.
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of peter lee
Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 07:58
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] 0402 stencil apperture design
Has anyone used a "D"-shape 0402 land pattern on their
design?
The pad dimensions are 18x19mils (semi-circle on the
other ends) and 16mil spacing between the 2 pads.
What would be the stencil apperture recommendation for
the above design? We've used round pads for 0402s and
15% apperture reduction before.
Rgds,
Peter
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/
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=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 13:27:44 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Crepeau, Phil" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Crepeau, Phil" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Microvias and rigid-flex in one board shop?
X-To: [log in to unmask]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
hi,
you might be interested in the picture at http://www.af.mil/photos/May1998/0430peacek.jpg
there might not have been rigid-flex circuits in it, but it is 'flying'. and, i hope we won't have to quibble about 'mx,'being renamed 'peacekeeper'.
phil
-----Original Message-----
From: Earl Moon [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 12:51 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Microvias and rigid-flex in one board shop?
Terri,
Don't mean to barge in like this but in the "good old" days of wine, roses,
and the MX missile system as line was drawn in the sand, or rigid flex as it
was. The MX never flew because it had a total of 79 layers of rigid flex
circuitry. One supporting board had 22 layers and continually failed.
It delaminated in several ways and areas. TMA analysis revealed delamination
way below expectations due to the acrylic adhesive used then. Later, after
the program was scrapped, folks like Marty Jawitz (anyone remember Marty) at
Litton Guidance Systems came up with a requirement limiting all rigid flex
designs to 11 layers.
Have some pretty ugly pictures from that era. Probably you and others have
answers overcoming the adhesive problem, cold flowing at room temperature
(Tg of about 70 or so F.). Sure like to get updated on what those answers
might be.
MoonMan
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in
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Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 15:37:13 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Microvias and rigid-flex in one board shop?
X-To: [log in to unmask]
She's a beauty and doesn't appear to be coming down on friendlies as the MX
often appeared to be. Trident never used one ounce of flex or rigid flex in
any of it's multiple warhead systems. I can't remember a failure from the
date Polaris started it all, or was that the second one after?
Always been a flex advocate since the early '70's. Just gotta know where to
draw the line and know what works under what conditions. Hell, it's the same
old story - a fight for love and glory and justifying one's existence and
the ability to wipe out someone else's.
MoonMan
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Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 14:13:48 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Sean Hill <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Sean Hill <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Microvias and rigid-flex in one board shop?
X-To: "Houston, Terri" <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Terri,
Try Cirrex Corp in Santa Clara,CA 408-988-3980
-----Original Message-----
From: Houston, Terri [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 9:36 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Microvias and rigid-flex in one board shop?
Hi folks,
I'm looking for a board shop with actual experience in building a 14+ layer,
rigid-flex board that has microvias in the rigid sections.
It seems the combination of these two features is hard to find at one
supplier, even though I'm only looking for a small quantity of prototypes.
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated--even self-marketing would be
accepted (off TechNet, please).
Thanks in advance,
Terri
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Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 16:51:16 -0500
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Seth Goodman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Philips Signetics SCC 68692 Dual UART
X-To: Dennis Petrosky <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Hi Dennis,
I haven't used this part since around the date code on your earlier ones,
but this sure has the smell of a timing problem. It could be that Philips
changed the process the die is made on, which can easily change the timing
and/or the driver output impedance. Either of these can lead to setup
violations or bus contention. Assuming that the original designer did his
homework on the timing, I'd look for changes to the timing specs or output
drive capability of the newer chips. Another possibility that is less
palatable is that there was a timing problem all along, but you have managed
to stay just this side of failure until the part changed slightly. This is
harder to find since you have to review the whole timing analysis.
Has anything else on this bus changed, such as bus loading (more memory) or
a change in the decoding scheme? Assuming there is a processor in this
system, has the die revision changed on that? As a final thought, check the
errata sheets on the older UART's. It is possible that Philips fixed some
bugs in the die that your software people originally had to work around and
the workaround is now causing the problem.
Good luck!
Regards,
Seth Goodman
Goodman Associates, LLC
tel 608.833.9933
fax 608.833.9966
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Dennis Petrosky
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 9:54 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Philips Signetics SCC 68692 Dual UART
For the Philips Signetics Dual UART, P/N SCC 68692 has anyone seen the
following problems with newer parts. We don't seem to have problems with
older parts, 1994 date code. We have the problems with newer parts 2000 and
2001 parts. We don't know where the date change actually occurred. The
problems don't happen 100% of the time on the new parts. Temperature seems
to affect it. The problem occurrs more often at higher temperatures.
The problems are:
1. The baud rate is wrong by a factor of 16. If you select 19.2K baud
for example, the part tries for 307K baud.
2. The part drops bits on the output data and requires 3 tries on any
RS232 input to get the correct character. For instance, if you are pressing
a series of 1's on the keyboard, then press 2, it will take 3 presses of 2
before the 2 is actually outputed on the UART. The problem seems to be in
changing bits on the output word from low to high. If a bit is high and is
intended to be high, it will stay high. If a bit is low and is intended to
stay low, it will stay low. If a bit is high and needs to go low, it will
go low on the first key press. If a bit is low and needs to go high, it
will take 3 key presses to go high.
Dennis Petrosky
Circuit Card Manufacturing Engineer
607-763-4745
------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C1ED42.94B55220
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2715.400" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D564533021-26042002><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi=20
Dennis,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D564533021-26042002><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D564533021-26042002><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I =
haven't used this=20
part since around the date code on your earlier ones, but this sure has =
the=20
smell of a timing problem. It could be that Philips changed the =
process=20
the die is made on, which can easily change the timing and/or the driver =
output=20
impedance. Either of these can lead to setup violations or bus=20
contention. Assuming that the original designer did his homework =
on the=20
timing, I'd look for changes to the timing specs or output drive =
capability of=20
the newer chips. Another possibility that is less palatable is =
that there=20
was a timing problem all along, but you have managed to stay just this =
side of=20
failure until the part changed slightly. This is harder to find =
since you=20
have to review the whole timing analysis.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D564533021-26042002><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D564533021-26042002><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Has =
anything else on=20
this bus changed, such as bus loading (more memory) or a change in the =
decoding=20
scheme? Assuming there is a processor in this system, has the die =
revision=20
changed on that? As a final thought, check the errata sheets on =
the older=20
UART's. It is possible that Philips fixed some bugs in the die =
that your=20
software people originally had to work around and the workaround is now =
causing=20
the problem.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D564533021-26042002><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D564533021-26042002><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Good=20
luck!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D564533021-26042002></SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN=20
class=3D564533021-26042002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Regards,<BR><BR>Seth Goodman<BR>Goodman =
Associates,=20
LLC<BR>tel 608.833.9933<BR>fax 608.833.9966<BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV></SPAN> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid">
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> TechNet=20
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Dennis =
Petrosky<BR><B>Sent:</B>=20
Thursday, April 25, 2002 9:54 AM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
[log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> [TN] Philips Signetics SCC 68692 =
Dual=20
UART<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2>For the =
Philips=20
Signetics Dual UART, P/N SCC 68692 has anyone seen the following =
problems with=20
newer parts. We don't seem to have problems with older parts, =
1994 date=20
code. We have the problems with newer parts 2000 and 2001 parts. =
We don't know where the date change actually occurred. The =
problems don't happen 100% of the time on the new parts. =
Temperature=20
seems to affect it. The problem occurrs more often at higher=20
temperatures.</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2>The =
problems=20
are:</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2>1. The baud =
rate is wrong=20
by a factor of 16. If you select 19.2K baud for example, the =
part tries=20
for 307K baud.</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2>2. =
The part=20
drops bits on the output data and requires 3 tries on any RS232 input =
to get=20
the correct character. For instance, if you are pressing a =
series of 1's=20
on the keyboard, then press 2, it will take 3 presses of 2 before the =
2 is=20
actually outputed on the UART. The problem seems to be in =
changing bits=20
on the output word from low to high. If a bit is high and is =
intended to=20
be high, it will stay high. If a bit is low and is intended to =
stay low,=20
it will stay low. If a bit is high and needs to go low, it will =
go low=20
on the first key press. If a bit is low and needs to go high, it =
will=20
take 3 key presses to go high.</FONT> <BR><BR><BR><BR><FONT =
face=3Dsans-serif=20
size=3D2>Dennis Petrosky<BR>Circuit Card Manufacturing=20
Engineer<BR>607-763-4745</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C1ED42.94B55220--
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=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 18:18:06 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
David Fish <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: David Fish <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Immersion Gold Vs Immersion Tin for 0201 landpatterns
X-To: [log in to unmask]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Imm tin at 44 micron!!! Wow, that seems very thick. We expect minimum
thickness of 0.65 microns with a maximum thickness of 1.5 microns.
Dave Fish
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tuan Bui" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 11:05 AM
Subject: Re: [TN] Immersion Gold Vs Immersion Tin for 0201 landpatterns
> Hi George,
>
> The Immersion Gold process that the PCB vendor stated that the Immersion
> gold (7-10 micron) over nickel over copper. The Immersion Tin process, as
> you have mentioned, is about 44 micron. It is good to hear that the
> immersion tin process can be easily/inexpensive reworked when its shelf
> live expires.
>
> BTW, thanks for your input.
>
> Tuan Bui
> Proc Dev Eng
> Conexant Systems Inc.
>
>
>
> George Milad
> <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent by: TechNet cc:
> <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: [TN]
Immersion Gold Vs Immersion Tin for 0201 landpatterns
>
>
> 04/26/2002 08:47
> AM
> Please respond to
> "TechNet E-Mail
> Forum."; Please
> respond to Gmilad
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Tuan,
> Could you clarify the "Immersion Gold" process that you are using. Is it
> Immersion gold over copper or it immersion gold over nickel over copper?
>
> Immersion Tin is a viable alternative for your application. However the
> thickness required will much higher than the 7 - 8 uins that you are
> presently using for gold, more like 30 - 40 uins. Tin is realtive
> inexpensive and can be easily reworked if shelf life becomes an issue.
>
> George Milad
> HDI Consulting
> Chairman IPC Plating Committee.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm for additional
> information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-509-9700
ext.5315
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
>
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Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 00:22:07 +0200
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"D.Terstegge" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "D.Terstegge" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: 0402 stencil apperture design
X-To: Roger Stoops <[log in to unmask]>
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The plexus report is published in '98 and is still pretty up-to-date, =
but it doesn't have much info about stencil apertures (but it's still =
interesting).=20
The report has disappeared from the plexus website, but you can still =
download it at http://www.smtinfo.net/docs/tombstoning.pdf
B.T.W. I'd say that even now 0201's are new to the masses, don't you =
think so Roger ?
Daan Terstegge
http://www.smtinfo.net
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Roger Stoops=20
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 10:10 PM
Subject: Re: [TN] 0402 stencil apperture design
If memory serves me right (and it normally does not), there was an =
article
published some years ago that championed oval pads for 0402s. I want =
to say
somewhere around '92 or '93. (0201s were probably new at that time to =
the
masses.) I want to say that it was Motorola(tm) that did the studies, =
and
oval pads and stencil apertures seemed to solve many manufacturing =
problems
for them. I'll have to rummage through my files one day and find it.
Can not wait until I get to try my hand at some of that itty-bitty =
stuff,
jealous of those that do...
Best Regards,
Roger M. Stoops, CID [log in to unmask]
TRIMBLE NAVIGATION LIMITED
Engineering and Construction Division
5475 Kellenburger Rd.
Dayton, OH 45424-1099 USA
Telephone: 937 233 8921 800 538 7800 ext. 288
Facsimile: 937 233 7511
http://www.trimble.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Ahne Oosterhof [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 1:54 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] 0402 stencil aperture design
Hi Peter,
At Plexus they have published a rather extensive report on the causes =
of
tombstoning. It included some remarks on the incidence of solder =
balls. Both
problem areas are partially caused by pad design on the board and =
aperture
design in stencils. (Some say the most significant factors for =
tombstoning
are pick-and-place accuracy and oven temperature profile.)
To minimize tombstoning the report indicates that pad design has a =
minimal
impact when using 0402-s, but for 0201-s you want to stay close to the
'normal' size for pad design.
To minimize solder balls it is recommended to change stencil apertures =
to
home plates. My personal preference (and that of some of our =
customers) is
to change the aperture to an oval, which has the effect of reducing =
excess
solder in all four corners of the pads. Sometimes in addition the =
overall
size is reduced by 1 or 2 mil.
An additional advantage is that the OVAL is a Gerber shape improving =
data
compactness, data sharing and interpretation reliability and it means =
that
for a single component there are no 'left' and 'right' or 'top' and =
'bottom'
apertures (or D-codes).
Have fun,
Ahne.
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of peter lee
Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 07:58
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] 0402 stencil apperture design
Has anyone used a "D"-shape 0402 land pattern on their
design?
The pad dimensions are 18x19mils (semi-circle on the
other ends) and 16mil spacing between the 2 pads.
What would be the stencil apperture recommendation for
the above design? We've used round pads for 0402s and
15% apperture reduction before.
Rgds,
Peter
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/
=
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in
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[log in to unmask]: SET
Technet NOMAIL
To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to
[log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest
Search the archives of previous posts at: =
http://listserv.ipc.org/archives
Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm for =
additional
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847-509-9700
ext.5315
=
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---
-----
=
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---
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[log in to unmask]: SET
Technet NOMAIL
To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to
[log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest
Search the archives of previous posts at: =
http://listserv.ipc.org/archives
Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm for =
additional
information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or =
847-509-9700
ext.5315
=
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---
-----
=
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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>The plexus report is published in '98 and is still pretty =
up-to-date,=20
but it doesn't have much info about stencil apertures (but it's =
still=20
interesting). </DIV>
<DIV>The report has disappeared from the plexus website, but you =
can still=20
download it at <A=20
href=3D"http://www.smtinfo.net/docs/tombstoning.pdf">http://www.smtinfo.n=
et/docs/tombstoning.pdf</A></DIV>
<DIV>B.T.W. I'd say that even now 0201's are new to the =
masses, don't=20
you think so Roger ?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Daan Terstegge</DIV>
<DIV>http://<A href=3D"http://www.smtinfo.net">www.smtinfo.net</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A [log in to unmask] =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">Roger=20
Stoops</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A [log in to unmask]
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, April 26, 2002 =
10:10=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [TN] 0402 stencil =
apperture=20
design</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>If memory serves me right (and it normally does not), =
there was=20
an article<BR>published some years ago that championed oval pads for =
0402s. I=20
want to say<BR>somewhere around '92 or '93. (0201s were probably new =
at that=20
time to the<BR>masses.) I want to say that it was Motorola(tm) =
that did=20
the studies, and<BR>oval pads and stencil apertures seemed to solve =
many=20
manufacturing problems<BR>for them. I'll have to rummage through =
my=20
files one day and find it.<BR>Can not wait until I get to try my hand =
at some=20
of that itty-bitty stuff,<BR>jealous of those that do...<BR>Best=20
Regards,<BR><BR>Roger M. Stoops, CID <A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A><BR>=
TRIMBLE=20
NAVIGATION LIMITED<BR>Engineering and Construction Division<BR>5475=20
Kellenburger Rd.<BR>Dayton, OH =20
45424-1099 USA<BR>Telephone: 937 =
233=20
8921 800 538 =
7800 =20
ext. 288<BR>Facsimile: 937 233 7511<BR><BR><A=20
=
href=3D"http://www.trimble.com">http://www.trimble.com</A><BR><BR><BR><BR=
> -----Original=20
Message-----<BR>From: Ahne Oosterhof=20
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR>Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 =
1:54=20
PM<BR>To: <A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A><BR>Subject: &nbs=
p; =20
Re: [TN] 0402 stencil aperture design<BR><BR>Hi Peter,<BR>At Plexus =
they have=20
published a rather extensive report on the causes of<BR>tombstoning. =
It=20
included some remarks on the incidence of solder balls. =
Both<BR>problem areas=20
are partially caused by pad design on the board and aperture<BR>design =
in=20
stencils. (Some say the most significant factors for =
tombstoning<BR>are=20
pick-and-place accuracy and oven temperature profile.)<BR><BR>To =
minimize=20
tombstoning the report indicates that pad design has a =
minimal<BR>impact when=20
using 0402-s, but for 0201-s you want to stay close to the<BR>'normal' =
size=20
for pad design.<BR><BR>To minimize solder balls it is recommended to =
change=20
stencil apertures to<BR>home plates. My personal preference (and that =
of some=20
of our customers) is<BR>to change the aperture to an oval, which has =
the=20
effect of reducing excess<BR>solder in all four corners of the pads. =
Sometimes=20
in addition the overall<BR>size is reduced by 1 or 2 mil.<BR><BR>An =
additional=20
advantage is that the OVAL is a Gerber shape improving =
data<BR>compactness,=20
data sharing and interpretation reliability and it means that<BR>for a =
single=20
component there are no 'left' and 'right' or 'top' and =
'bottom'<BR>apertures=20
(or D-codes).<BR><BR>Have fun,<BR>Ahne.<BR><BR><BR>-----Original=20
Message-----<BR>From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On =
Behalf=20
Of peter lee<BR>Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002=20
07:58<BR>To: <A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A><BR>Subject: &nbs=
p; =20
[TN] 0402 stencil apperture design<BR><BR>Has anyone used a "D"-shape =
0402=20
land pattern on their<BR>design?<BR><BR>The pad dimensions are =
18x19mils=20
(semi-circle on the<BR>other ends) and 16mil spacing between the 2=20
pads.<BR><BR>What would be the stencil apperture recommendation =
for<BR>the=20
above design? We've used round pads for 0402s and<BR>15% apperture =
reduction=20
=
before.<BR><BR><BR>Rgds,<BR>Peter<BR><BR><BR>____________________________=
______________________<BR>Do=20
You Yahoo!?<BR>Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and =
more<BR><A=20
=
href=3D"http://games.yahoo.com/">http://games.yahoo.com/</A><BR><BR>-----=
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Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 16:19:51 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Tuan Bui <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Immersion Gold Vs Immersion Tin for 0201 landpatterns
X-To: David Fish <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
David,
I double checked the Tin thickness and you are right. 44 micron is too
thick. The correct measurement is .7 microns (~ 44 micro inches)
Thanks for catching that.
Tuan
"David Fish"
<[log in to unmask] To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, <[log in to unmask]>
> cc:
Subject: Re: Re: [TN] Immersion Gold Vs Immersion Tin for 0201 landpatterns
04/26/2002 06:18
PM
Imm tin at 44 micron!!! Wow, that seems very thick. We expect minimum
thickness of 0.65 microns with a maximum thickness of 1.5 microns.
Dave Fish
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tuan Bui" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 11:05 AM
Subject: Re: [TN] Immersion Gold Vs Immersion Tin for 0201 landpatterns
> Hi George,
>
> The Immersion Gold process that the PCB vendor stated that the Immersion
> gold (7-10 micron) over nickel over copper. The Immersion Tin process, as
> you have mentioned, is about 44 micron. It is good to hear that the
> immersion tin process can be easily/inexpensive reworked when its shelf
> live expires.
>
> BTW, thanks for your input.
>
> Tuan Bui
> Proc Dev Eng
> Conexant Systems Inc.
>
>
>
> George Milad
> <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent by: TechNet cc:
> <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: [TN]
Immersion Gold Vs Immersion Tin for 0201 landpatterns
>
>
> 04/26/2002 08:47
> AM
> Please respond to
> "TechNet E-Mail
> Forum."; Please
> respond to Gmilad
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Tuan,
> Could you clarify the "Immersion Gold" process that you are using. Is it
> Immersion gold over copper or it immersion gold over nickel over copper?
>
> Immersion Tin is a viable alternative for your application. However the
> thickness required will much higher than the 7 - 8 uins that you are
> presently using for gold, more like 30 - 40 uins. Tin is realtive
> inexpensive and can be easily reworked if shelf life becomes an issue.
>
> George Milad
> HDI Consulting
> Chairman IPC Plating Committee.
>
>
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Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 16:30:46 +0000
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
LINO REBOREDO <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: LINO REBOREDO <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: FAB Question: laminate - 1 ply or 2??
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed
Dear Pete, I also made myself your question time ago, my relative truth is
that in all cases that you can use 2 plies used it, One ply means that the
ply system resin- reinforce must be in perfect state, no fault is admitted.
I never had meet an adhesion problem using one ply,
but i had meet dielectrical lacks betw. layer and was due to operational
asemblies fault.
at the end is as we say :is not the same the double than the half
regards,
lino
>From: Pete Jones <[log in to unmask]>
>Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, Pete Jones
><[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: [TN] FAB Question: laminate - 1 ply or 2??
>Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 09:55:27 -0400
>
>Hello all TechNetters,
>
>What is the difference between using 1 ply of laminate or 2 in fab boards?
>
>Is there a REAL concern that 1 ply will not be sufficient electrical
>insolation? Or has resins now evolved enough to make it safe to use just
>one
>ply?
>
>I deal mostly, but not exclusively, with the military and would like to
>make
>sure of my statement that 1 ply should be sufficient. Can I get reliable
>references anywhere concerning this issue, one way or the other?
>
>Thanks to all participants in this discussion.
>
>Pete
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
>http://www.hotmail.com
>
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Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 12:42:24 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Microvias and rigid-flex in one board shop?
MIME-Version: 1.0
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boundary="part1_6.280ee898.29fc2ef0_boundary"
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Hello Terri,
I can build flex with microvias. We are selective though, regarding flex
that is. I would suggest the APLS flex (no adhesive) and if conventional
cover coat is used to terminate after rigid area entry. This area must be no
via zone. The rigid needs to be epoxy (aka FR4) [I used to be a BIG
polyimide guy], don't bond your flex layers together, keep board aspect
ratio below 6.5/1, microvia aspect ratios below .75/1, Silver or Tin finish.
Make the build symmetrical about the vertical centerline. Prior to proto
build have a mock up made for mechanical/sanity check.
If I didn't go to me I would go to Pioneer (Santa Ana, CA, Ken Lee) or
Cosomtronics (Irvine, CA, Dick Berger). Both these folks are HiRel flex
shops and smart people that build excellent flex (my own first hand
experience) BUT I do NOT know their capability of micro via technology. That
is not meant to be derogatory.
I have built micro via flex, it is better to get a micro via shop to build
flex than a flex shop to builds micro via.
Contact me if more detail/opinion is needed.
Boston Brad
781 858 0783
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Hello Terri,<BR>
<BR>
I can build flex with microvias. We are selective though, regarding flex that is. I would suggest the APLS flex (no adhesive) and if conventional cover coat is used to terminate after rigid area entry. This area must be no via zone. The rigid needs to be epoxy (aka FR4) [I used to be a BIG polyimide guy], don't bond your flex layers together, keep board aspect ratio below 6.5/1, microvia aspect ratios below .75/1, Silver or Tin finish. Make the build symmetrical about the vertical centerline. Prior to proto build have a mock up made for mechanical/sanity check.<BR>
If I didn't go to me I would go to Pioneer (Santa Ana, CA, Ken Lee) or Cosomtronics (Irvine, CA, Dick Berger). Both these folks are HiRel flex shops and smart people that build excellent flex (my own first hand experience) BUT I do NOT know their capability of micro via technology. That is not meant to be derogatory.<BR>
I have built micro via flex, it is better to get a micro via shop to build flex than a flex shop to builds micro via.<BR>
<BR>
Contact me if more detail/opinion is needed.<BR>
<BR>
Boston Brad<BR>
781 858 0783<BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 12:57:31 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Microvias and rigid-flex in one board shop?
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Moon,
I meet many people involved in the dreaded "MX flex." It did go through some
extensive "envelope" changes, many of which I was not privy to in that they
were before my time. I was heavily involved in the final end product and can
unequivocally state it is a sound robust design that is indeed "failsafe." I
have worked a great many Defense applications and I say to this day I have
never worked with a more professional group or have more certainty of
performance than the MX; PeaceKeeper.
BB
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Moon,<BR>
<BR>
I meet many people involved in the dreaded "MX flex." It did go through some extensive "envelope" changes, many of which I was not privy to in that they were before my time. I was heavily involved in the final end product and can unequivocally state it is a sound robust design that is indeed "failsafe." I have worked a great many Defense applications and I say to this day I have never worked with a more professional group or have more certainty of performance than the MX; PeaceKeeper.<BR>
<BR>
BB </FONT></HTML>
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Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 13:05:53 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Rick Fudalewski <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: HDIC
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Question
does the term "HDIC" stand for high density integrated circuits?
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>Question
<BR>
<BR>does the term "HDIC" stand for high density integrated circuits?</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 12:02:03 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Microvias and rigid-flex in one board shop?
X-To: [log in to unmask]
saunders,
As you say, you were not there in the early days. However, all the folks
were very professional. They just didn't have the technology early on to get
the project to market as soon as they would have wished. Obviously you do
and that's good for us all.
MoonMan
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Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 13:29:34 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Via Plug
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="part1_51.1d2ad0a3.29fc39fe_boundary"
--part1_51.1d2ad0a3.29fc39fe_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hello John,
Via plug is one of the fastest growing requests of board buyers/users today.
Mainly in the arena of electrical interconnection in the CSP or sub .8mm BGA
substrates. Thermagon is a very good thermal dielectric (www.thermagon.com)
and their "in-situ" hole fill may be what your looking for, although it is
best used to bond PCBs to alum or copper heat plates. It can also be readily
used as the dielectric system for single, double or multilayer boards. It is
conventional E-glass with a modified epoxy that has 10x betterment of thermal
transfer properties. We use a high silver content epoxy hole fill supplied
by three different suppliers. These are all great materials but will not do
a thermal transfer job very well. If it is a through PCB thermal transfer
you can't beat the performance of an additional plated through hole combined
with copper planes (large and or small). The challenge is where does the
heat go from there and how. That is an assembly issue and volume has
everything to do with appropriate configuration. I've done quite a bit of
that send a reply to continue the thread.
Boston Brad
--part1_51.1d2ad0a3.29fc39fe_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Hello John,<BR>
<BR>
Via plug is one of the fastest growing requests of board buyers/users today. Mainly in the arena of electrical interconnection in the CSP or sub .8mm BGA substrates. Thermagon is a very good thermal dielectric (www.thermagon.com) and their "in-situ" hole fill may be what your looking for, although it is best used to bond PCBs to alum or copper heat plates. It can also be readily used as the dielectric system for single, double or multilayer boards. It is conventional E-glass with a modified epoxy that has 10x betterment of thermal transfer properties. We use a high silver content epoxy hole fill supplied by three different suppliers. These are all great materials but will not do a thermal transfer job very well. If it is a through PCB thermal transfer you can't beat the performance of an additional plated through hole combined with copper planes (large and or small). The challenge is where does the heat go from there and how. That is!
an assembly issue and volume has everything to do with appropriate configuration. I've done quite a bit of that send a reply to continue the thread. <BR>
<BR>
Boston Brad </FONT></HTML>
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Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 13:42:39 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: HDIC
MIME-Version: 1.0
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High Denity InterConnects
> Question
>
> does the term "HDIC" stand for high density integrated circuits?
--part1_15d.d0ed3b1.29fc3d0f_boundary
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>High Denity InterConnects<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Question<BR>
<BR>
does the term "HDIC" stand for high density integrated circuits?</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 12:48:12 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Via Plug
One of the best places for the heat to go is a cold wall.
MoonMan
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Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 12:14:43 +0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
fullname <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: fullname <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: DSO National Laboratories
Subject: Looking for Happy Holden
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I would like to have Happy Holden's contact especially email address.
Your reply would be appreciated.
Regards - Wee Mei
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Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 13:39:38 +0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Via Plug
X-To: "Mcmaster, Michael" <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Michael,
My thermal engineer assures me that the K value for copper is between 150
and 200 W/mK, but even so, your point about replacing CB100 (now CB101, by
the way) with additional copper plating is a valid one, and offers much
simpler, quicker and less costly PCB fabrication.
The only caveat I would add is, make sure the ductility for your additional
copper plating thickness is enough to avoid cracking the barrels under
temperature cycling, especially if using FR4.
Peter
"Mcmaster, Michael" <[log in to unmask]> 26/04/2002 11:58 PM
Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
Please respond to "TechNet E-Mail Forum."; Please respond to "Mcmaster,
Michael"
To: [log in to unmask]
cc: (bcc: DUNCAN Peter/Asst Prin Engr/ST Aero/ST Group)
Subject: Re: [TN] Via Plug
John
The DuPont CB-100 will increase the amount of heat that can be conducted
through the barrel. My experience with it that most people overestimate
what it can do. I've done calculations that show for a 0.020" drilled hole
with 0.001" copper barrel, adding CB-100 only increases the amount of heat
by less than 5%. The reason is the CB-100 has a thermal conductivity of
5.23
W/mK vs 395 W/mK for copper. Even though CB-100 makes up the majority of
the cross sectional area, it only adds a little to the "thermal" cross
section.
I always recommend that potential users of this technology run the numbers
themselves and balance the potential cost increase with the improved
performance.
> ----------
> From: John Foster[SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Reply To: TechNet E-Mail Forum.;John Foster
> Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 12:06 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] Via Plug
>
> Hello, I am new to this listserver. I must say that it is very
> informative. I wish I had known of it long ago.
>
> I have a question about via plugging. Right now
> our board vendor is doing our via plugs with
> I guess with a standard epoxy. We are trying
> to find a solution that would give us a much
> better thermal performance.
>
> We are looking at silver epoxy and this
> material from Dupont. Does anyone know of
> some material that would give us a really good
> thermal performance. We are in a commercial
> environment. So the material does not have to
> meet industrial specs.
>
> Any input on this matter would be greatly '
> appreciated.
>
> Thank You
>
> John Foster
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 10:00:05 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"FOX, Ian (York Rd)" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "FOX, Ian (York Rd)" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Via Plug
X-To: "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
It's a very poor Cu alloy with a thermal conductivity that low, you're
talking BeCu at that level. 395 is about right for high purity material
Ian Fox
TRW AS
-----Original Message-----
From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 29 April 2002 06:40
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Via Plug
Michael,
My thermal engineer assures me that the K value for copper is between 150
and 200 W/mK, but even so, your point about replacing CB100 (now CB101, by
the way) with additional copper plating is a valid one, and offers much
simpler, quicker and less costly PCB fabrication.
The only caveat I would add is, make sure the ductility for your additional
copper plating thickness is enough to avoid cracking the barrels under
temperature cycling, especially if using FR4.
Peter
"Mcmaster, Michael" <[log in to unmask]> 26/04/2002 11:58 PM
Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
Please respond to "TechNet E-Mail Forum."; Please respond to "Mcmaster,
Michael"
To: [log in to unmask]
cc: (bcc: DUNCAN Peter/Asst Prin Engr/ST Aero/ST Group)
Subject: Re: [TN] Via Plug
John
The DuPont CB-100 will increase the amount of heat that can be conducted
through the barrel. My experience with it that most people overestimate
what it can do. I've done calculations that show for a 0.020" drilled hole
with 0.001" copper barrel, adding CB-100 only increases the amount of heat
by less than 5%. The reason is the CB-100 has a thermal conductivity of
5.23
W/mK vs 395 W/mK for copper. Even though CB-100 makes up the majority of
the cross sectional area, it only adds a little to the "thermal" cross
section.
I always recommend that potential users of this technology run the numbers
themselves and balance the potential cost increase with the improved
performance.
> ----------
> From: John Foster[SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Reply To: TechNet E-Mail Forum.;John Foster
> Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 12:06 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] Via Plug
>
> Hello, I am new to this listserver. I must say that it is very
> informative. I wish I had known of it long ago.
>
> I have a question about via plugging. Right now
> our board vendor is doing our via plugs with
> I guess with a standard epoxy. We are trying
> to find a solution that would give us a much
> better thermal performance.
>
> We are looking at silver epoxy and this
> material from Dupont. Does anyone know of
> some material that would give us a really good
> thermal performance. We are in a commercial
> environment. So the material does not have to
> meet industrial specs.
>
> Any input on this matter would be greatly '
> appreciated.
>
> Thank You
>
> John Foster
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
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> Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm for
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> ext.5315
>
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>
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Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 06:06:08 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Looking for Happy Holden
X-To: fullname <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Check over at the CircuiTree magazine forum. He's on all the time.
Earl
----- Original Message -----
From: "fullname" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 12:14 AM
Subject: [TN] Looking for Happy Holden
> I would like to have Happy Holden's contact especially email address.
> Your reply would be appreciated.
>
> Regards - Wee Mei
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
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> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 03:37:24 +1000
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
chris johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: chris johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Looking for Happy Holden
X-To: fullname <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Sorry, don't know any happy holden, cannot help.
-----Original Message-----
From: fullname <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Monday, April 29, 2002 3:09 PM
Subject: [TN] Looking for Happy Holden
>I would like to have Happy Holden's contact especially email address.
>Your reply would be appreciated.
>
>Regards - Wee Mei
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 08:00:36 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Dieselberg, Ron" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Dieselberg, Ron" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: HDIC
X-To: "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C1EF75.79147340"
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C1EF75.79147340
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According to acronymfinder.com that is the only listing, Rick.
Ron Dieselberg
Trainer/Auditor
CMC ELECTRONICS
CINCINNATI
[log in to unmask]
-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Fudalewski [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 13:06 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] HDIC
Question
does the term "HDIC" stand for high density integrated circuits?
------_=_NextPart_001_01C1EF75.79147340
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 5.50.4522.1800" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=530404311-29042002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff>According to
acronymfinder.com that is the only listing, Rick.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2>Ron Dieselberg</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2>Trainer/Auditor</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>CMC ELECTRONICS</FONT>
<BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>CINCINNATI</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2>[log in to unmask]</FONT> </P>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Rick Fudalewski
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, April 27, 2002 13:06
PM<BR><B>To:</B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> [TN]
HDIC<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=2>Question
<BR><BR>does the term "HDIC" stand for high density integrated
circuits?</FONT> </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 08:35:58 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Sherif Refaat <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Sherif Refaat <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Looking for Happy Holden
X-To: fullname <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
His office telephone number is (203) 937 8622
Sherif Refaat,
----- Original Message -----
From: "fullname" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 12:14 AM
Subject: [TN] Looking for Happy Holden
> I would like to have Happy Holden's contact especially email address.
> Your reply would be appreciated.
>
> Regards - Wee Mei
>
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Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 09:40:09 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Tempea, Ioan" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Tempea, Ioan" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Flip-flop panels
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Now I got all mixed up.
I'm mainly talking about multilayer boards. Basically small piggy backs, but
MLBs still!
Is it doable or not?
And, of course, thanks for the input, Dennis, Jac, Robert and Eddie.
Ioan
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Eddie Rocha [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 6:45 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Flip-flop panels
>
> Flip flopping multilayer bds can get complicated and is not
> recommended. It cannot be done if the layer stack-up is not
> symmetrical.
> thanks,
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
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Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 09:35:54 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Sauer, Steven T." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Sauer, Steven T." <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Looking for Happy Holden
X-To: fullname <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Good Morning Wee Mei,
I took the following directly from a recent article in CircuiTree Magazine:
Happy Holden is manager of advanced technologies for Westwood Associates
(West Haven, CT). He is responsible for next-generation printed circuit
manufacturing technologies, advanced design tools, and design consulting.
Prior to joining Westwood, he was a consultant with TechLead Corporation,
and had been at Hewlett-Packard for over 27 years. Holden formally managed
Hewlett Packard's application organizations in the Far East and holds
degrees in Chemical Engineering and Computer Science. If you have questions,
he can be contacted via e-mail at [log in to unmask]
-----Original Message-----
From: fullname [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 12:15 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Looking for Happy Holden
I would like to have Happy Holden's contact especially email address.
Your reply would be appreciated.
Regards - Wee Mei
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Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 12:21:19 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Tempea, Ioan" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Tempea, Ioan" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Flip-flop panels
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
You are right Charlie, the board house must be involved.
Since my original purpose was to assess the feasability, I think I had my
answers.
The starting point that a manufacturing man like myself needed is there.
Thanks all,
Ioan
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Charlie McMahon [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 10:28 AM
> To: Tempea, Ioan
> Subject: Re: [TN] Flip-flop panels
>
> Joan:
>
> May I add to the discussion that you should not be flipping multi-layers.
> Primary reason is it only adds more cost in PCB fabrication due to lower
> yields caused by plating difficiencies.
> If you want to enhance productivity and increase your margin, consider
> co-operative engineering early on with your board supplier and assembler.
> As a board and assembly supplier myself, I have offered same to my clients
> and it can pay serious dividends in reducing problems increasing profit.
>
> I represent board shops in Canada that would be happy to assist you in
> this regard. It is, in my view, the superior strategy to implement.
> If you would, like I will provide contacts should you wish to investigate.
>
> Charlie McMahon
>
>
>
> Tempea, Ioan wrote:
>
>
> Now I got all mixed up.
>
> I'm mainly talking about multilayer boards. Basically small piggy
> backs, but
> MLBs still!
>
> Is it doable or not?
>
> And, of course, thanks for the input, Dennis, Jac, Robert and Eddie.
>
> Ioan
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Eddie Rocha [ SMTP:[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:SMTP:[log in to unmask]>]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 6:45 PM
> To: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: [TN] Flip-flop panels
>
> Flip flopping multilayer bds can get complicated and is not
> recommended. It cannot be done if the layer stack-up is not
> symmetrical.
> thanks,
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
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Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 09:21:19 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Frank Kimmey <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Frank Kimmey <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Flip-flop panels
X-To: "Tempea, Ioan" <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi Ioan,
It is doable.
You just have to make sure of a few things first.
1. Board stack-up is symmetrical
2. Step and repeat allows even number of images
(copper balancing)
3. Blind or buried vias add complexity (orders of magnitude)
4. KISS is best. The simpler the better.
I have requested flip image panels to reduce costs, warpage and
process times on many PCBs throughout the years. It works, but
you should spend a little more time in verification and probably
only use with simpler MLBs.
Hope this helped,
FNK
Frank N Kimmey, C.I.D.+
Senior PCB Designer
Powerwave Technologies
PH. 916-941-3159
Fax 916-941-3195
-----Original Message-----
From: Tempea, Ioan [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 6:40 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Flip-flop panels
Now I got all mixed up.
I'm mainly talking about multilayer boards. Basically small piggy backs, but
MLBs still!
Is it doable or not?
And, of course, thanks for the input, Dennis, Jac, Robert and Eddie.
Ioan
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Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 11:26:26 -0500
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Robert B. Denbo" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Flip-flop panels
X-To: "Tempea, Ioan" <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Ioan:
As long as dielectric spacing and copper weights are symmetric around the
centerline of the panel it is doable.
Robert B. Denbo
Engineering Manager
Midwest Printed Circuit Services, Inc.
http://www.midwestpcb.com
mailto:[log in to unmask]
847.740.4120
847.740.4187 Fax
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Tempea, Ioan
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 8:40 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Flip-flop panels
Now I got all mixed up.
I'm mainly talking about multilayer boards. Basically small piggy backs, but
MLBs still!
Is it doable or not?
And, of course, thanks for the input, Dennis, Jac, Robert and Eddie.
Ioan
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Eddie Rocha [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 6:45 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Flip-flop panels
>
> Flip flopping multilayer bds can get complicated and is not
> recommended. It cannot be done if the layer stack-up is not
> symmetrical.
> thanks,
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
> Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d
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Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 10:25:59 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Dwight Mattix <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Dwight Mattix <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Via Plug
X-To: John Foster <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <006901c1ebbd$f36abed0$550200c0@jfoster2>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
At 11:29 AM 4/24/2002 -0700, John Foster wrote:
>Thanks Jim
>
>Did you do this extra plating selectively. Or did you just overplate the
>whole PCB.
We have a lot of applications where we spec thermal vias to be selectively
plated to a minimum of 3 mils annular copper.
The fabricator drills the thermal vias and selectively plates to 2
mils. Then they drill and (plate the rest of the board to 1 mil (adding to
thermal via copper as well).
It's way more effective at heat transfer than any conductive epoxy we've
tried. This approach is also very effective at controlling solder wicking
to the bottom of the board -- we'll use it sometimes when we don't have a
thermal problem but just want to control solder flow into unplugged fields
of gnd vias (saves masking backside).
Dwight
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Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 13:28:19 -0400
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Tom Moore <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: end joint width vs. side joint length
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
We are a small, primarily captive, board assembly house that recently
brought our outsourced SMT assemblies in-house. We rely heavily on IPC
documentation in developing our acceptance criteria for Class 2 assemblies.
Have run into a problem with the idea of side joint length vs. end joint
width. Section 12.2.5.4 of 610C states that the minimum side joint length
is equal to the lead width or 75% of the lead length, whichever is less. I
would interpret this to mean that an acceptable solder joint does not
necessarily have to reach the toe of the component. However the preceding
section, end joint width-12.2.5.3, seems to indicate that not only does
solder need to contact the toe, it must also extend along 50% of the width
of the toe. Is there a conflict or am I not interpreting the spec correctly?
Thanks for your help.
Tom Moore
Quality Assurance Manager
Electro Plasma, Inc.
PH 419-255-5197
FAX 419-838-6745
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Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 11:48:59 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Mcmaster, Michael" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Mcmaster, Michael" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Chemistry of discoloration?
X-To: Jana Carraway <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Oxidation, oxidation, oxidation!
I don't mean to oversimplify but that is predominately what is occurring.
I've seen samples where a strip of Kapton tape is placed on the board before
reflow. The section under the tape doesn't darken while the rest does.
> ----------
> From: Jana Carraway[SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Reply To: TechNet E-Mail Forum.;Jana Carraway
> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 2:04 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Chemistry of discoloration?
>
> Rudy, you can even use "free radical initiation"! There must be some
> formulations folks out there who can divulge a bit more about the
> reactions
> without giving away formulation secrets! Dr. Roos, you out there???
>
> Thanks for the info Rudy,
> Jana Carraway
> MSEI
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Rudy Sedlak
> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 12:11 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Chemistry of discoloration?
>
>
> Jana:
>
> You have asked a BIG question.
>
> There really is no known absolute answer.
>
> Organics tend to discolor, if they have any sort of reactivity left in
> them,
> and often, under the right circumstances even if they do not have any
> reactivity left in them.
>
> The general rule is they turn dark(er). The reactions are many, and
> clearly
> going to be dependent on the base material. Discoloration is driven by
> heat,
> and often exposure to sunlight.
>
> Not to get too technical, but polymers (laminate, and soldermask, for
> example) only rarely really react fully, and there is almost always some
> unreacted polymer (called monomer when it is totally unreacted, and
> oligomer
> when it is partially reacted) lurking in the matrix. When this contacts
> air,
> water, and heat and UV, all sorts of unexpected things happen. In fact,
> these very polymers often have added "preservatives" to prevent these
> post-polymerization reactions from occurring.
>
> The bottom line is (as if this really has ANY significanse in our
> industry)
> that this discoloration rarely affects the physical properties of the
> polymer. I think a great English playwright described this situation
> centuries ago..."Much ado about nothing"?
>
> Rudy Sedlak
> RD Chemical Company
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 15:18:00 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Marsico, James" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Marsico, James" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Via Plug
X-To: Dwight Mattix <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Dwight, just out of curiosity, why not plate ALL of the vias with 3 mils of
copper. Wouldn't this be cheaper than drilling, plating, drilling and
plating again?
Jim Marsico
Senior Engineer
Production Engineering
EDO Electronics Systems Group
[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
631-595-5879
-----Original Message-----
From: Dwight Mattix [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 1:26 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Via Plug
At 11:29 AM 4/24/2002 -0700, John Foster wrote:
>Thanks Jim
>
>Did you do this extra plating selectively. Or did you just
overplate the
>whole PCB.
We have a lot of applications where we spec thermal vias to be
selectively
plated to a minimum of 3 mils annular copper.
The fabricator drills the thermal vias and selectively plates to 2
mils. Then they drill and (plate the rest of the board to 1 mil
(adding to
thermal via copper as well).
It's way more effective at heat transfer than any conductive epoxy
we've
tried. This approach is also very effective at controlling solder
wicking
to the bottom of the board -- we'll use it sometimes when we don't
have a
thermal problem but just want to control solder flow into unplugged
fields
of gnd vias (saves masking backside).
Dwight
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Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 15:41:13 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Jim Keating <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Jim Keating <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Removal of Cured Nomenclature Ink
X-To: "Furrow, Robert Gordon (Bob)" <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Bob,
Sorry for the late response to this posting. If you haven't already reworked the boards might I suggest
laser removal. This will work for certain applications and we have had success multiple times. If
interested please cantact me via TechNet or at (603) 882-9944.
Regards
Jim Keating
"Furrow, Robert Gordon (Bob)" wrote:
> Hi TechNet,
>
> I have been asked what chemical(s) would be required to remove cured
> nomenclature ink (also known as silkscreen) from a bare board without
> damaging the board itself. I am assuming it is an epoxy ink, but I do not
> know the exact formulation. Any input is appreciated. I should know the
> exact formulation of the applied nomenclature ink tomorrow, but thought that
> maybe there is a generic answer.
>
> Thanks,
> Robert Furrow
> Printed Wiring Board Engineer
> Supply Chain Networks
> Lucent Technologies
> 978-960-3224 [log in to unmask]
>
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Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 15:54:23 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Jack Crawford <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Jack Crawford <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Proposed lifting of component date code restrictions
X-To: [log in to unmask]
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_2D70D107.40214376"
This is a MIME message. If you are reading this text, you may want to
consider changing to a mail reader or gateway that understands how to
properly handle MIME multipart messages.
--=_2D70D107.40214376
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
IPC has become aware that the National Electronics Distributors Association=
(NEDA) has posted a white paper discussing the proposed lifting of date =
code restrictions and they have requested comments from end users as well =
as component suppliers and distributors. The paper can be viewed at =
http://www.nedassoc.org/whitedat.html.
Comments can be provided to me on or off net; we'll compile them and =
forward to NEDA. If you comment to NEDA directly [log in to unmask], please =
cc: me on your reply [log in to unmask]
Cordially
Jack
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
APEX 2003 - the industry's premier trade show in Electronics
Manufacturing, March 31-April 2, 2003, Anaheim, California.
More information on website www.goapex.org
--------
Jack Crawford, IPC Director of Assembly Standards and Technology
2215 Sanders Road, Northbrook IL 60062-6135
[log in to unmask]
847-790-5393
fax 847-504-2393
--=_2D70D107.40214376
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Description: HTML
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1"=
>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY style=3D"MARGIN-TOP: 2px; FONT: 8pt MS Sans Serif; MARGIN-LEFT: =
2px">
<DIV><FONT size=3D1>IPC has become aware that t</FONT><FONT size=3D1>he =
National=20
Electronics Distributors Association (NEDA) has posted a white paper =
discussing=20
the proposed lifting of date code restrictions and they have requested =
comments=20
from end users as well as component suppliers and distributors. The paper =
can be=20
viewed at <A=20
href=3D"http://www.nedassoc.org/whitedat.html">http://www.nedassoc.org/whit=
edat.html</A>.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1>Comments can be provided to me on or off net; we'll =
compile=20
them and forward to NEDA. If you comment to NEDA directly <A=20
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask],">[log in to unmask],</A> please cc: =
me on=20
your reply <A=20
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>.<BR></FONT></=
DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1>Cordially</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1>Jack</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR=
>APEX 2003 - the=20
industry's premier trade show in Electronics<BR>Manufacturing, March =
31-April 2,=20
2003, Anaheim, California.<BR>More information on website <A=20
href=3D"http://www.goapex.org">www.goapex.org</A><BR>--------<BR>Jack =
Crawford,=20
IPC Director of Assembly Standards and Technology<BR>2215 Sanders Road,=20
Northbrook IL 60062-6135<BR><A=20
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A> <BR>847-790-5393<BR>fax=
=20
847-504-2393</DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 16:49:17 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Via Plug
Don't mean to but in, but what the hell. Just think how much surface copper
would be plated and how much resist would have to be applied and how much
plating overhang would be involved even with several resist layers applied,
etc..
MoonMan
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Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 19:05:47 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Proposed lifting of component date code restrictions
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I guess my first question is; If the datecodes currently mean different
things depending on the manufacturer, why not standardize what datecodes
really mean rather than get rid of them?
The paper talks about all the advances that have been made understanding root
causes concerning solderability issues, improved storage and handling
methods, etc., then why do I continue to get moisture sensitive components
from distributors in un-sealed packaging? But that's another issue...
A recent issue here at my facility underscores the importance of a datecode
on the part. We build an assembly for a customer that uses three 240-pin QFP
DSP's from a well known manufacturer. So far, we've built-up over 200
assemblies for our customer. We shipped the assemblies to our customer and
they integrated them into the higher level assembly, and discovered they
don't work...not communicating at all with the rest of the system.
Numerous phone calls to the manufacturer trying to find out what the problem
could be resulted in "Nothing has changed with the part, the die hasn't
changed, nothing..."
Funny thing was our first pre-production shipment of the assemblies worked
fine!!
After looking a little closer, the first lot of assemblies contained DSP's
that had a datecode that was 2000 or earlier, everything that's failing are
later...but still, according to the device manufacturer; "Nothing has
changed..."
If there wasn't a datecode on the part, we wouldn't know what we could put on
the assemblies and work. There is a lot of effort being expended to try and
isolate what the problem really is (with no help from the device supplier),
but for now we need to find parts that work so that it doesn't shut down
production, the only solid way (for now) is to find parts within a certain
date code.
Now I'm faced with the possible task of reworking 200 assemblies, each with
three 240-pin QFP's, with a early datecode part...fun stuff I know.
-Steve Gregory-
> IPC has become aware that the National Electronics Distributors Association
> (NEDA) has posted a white paper discussing the proposed lifting of date
> code restrictions and they have requested comments from end users as well
> as component suppliers and distributors. The paper can be viewed at <A HREF="http://www.nedassoc.org/whitedat.html">
> http://www.nedassoc.org/whitedat.html</A>.
>
> Comments can be provided to me on or off net; we'll compile them and
> forward to NEDA. If you comment to NEDA directly <A HREF="mailto:[log in to unmask],">[log in to unmask],</A> please
> cc: me on your reply <A HREF="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>.
>
> Cordially
> Jack
>
--part1_197.63022bd.29ff2bcb_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>I guess my first question is; If the datecodes currently mean different things depending on the manufacturer, why not standardize what datecodes really mean rather than get rid of them?<BR>
<BR>
The paper talks about all the advances that have been made understanding root causes concerning solderability issues, improved storage and handling methods, etc., then why do I continue to get moisture sensitive components from distributors in un-sealed packaging? But that's another issue...<BR>
<BR>
A recent issue here at my facility underscores the importance of a datecode on the part. We build an assembly for a customer that uses three 240-pin QFP DSP's from a well known manufacturer. So far, we've built-up over 200 assemblies for our customer. We shipped the assemblies to our customer and they integrated them into the higher level assembly, and discovered they don't work...not communicating at all with the rest of the system.<BR>
<BR>
Numerous phone calls to the manufacturer trying to find out what the problem could be resulted in "Nothing has changed with the part, the die hasn't changed, nothing..."<BR>
Funny thing was our first pre-production shipment of the assemblies worked fine!! <BR>
<BR>
After looking a little closer, the first lot of assemblies contained DSP's that had a datecode that was 2000 or earlier, everything that's failing are later...but still, according to the device manufacturer; "Nothing has changed..."<BR>
<BR>
If there wasn't a datecode on the part, we wouldn't know what we could put on the assemblies and work. There is a lot of effort being expended to try and isolate what the problem really is (with no help from the device supplier), but for now we need to find parts that work so that it doesn't shut down production, the only solid way (for now) is to find parts within a certain date code.<BR>
<BR>
Now I'm faced with the possible task of reworking 200 assemblies, each with three 240-pin QFP's, with a early datecode part...fun stuff I know.<BR>
<BR>
-Steve Gregory-<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=1 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">IPC has become aware that the National Electronics Distributors Association (NEDA) has posted a white paper discussing the proposed lifting of date code restrictions and they have requested comments from end users as well as component suppliers and distributors. The paper can be viewed at <A HREF="http://www.nedassoc.org/whitedat.html">http://www.nedassoc.org/whitedat.html</A>.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=1 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Comments can be provided to me on or off net; we'll compile them and forward to NEDA. If you comment to NEDA directly <A HREF="mailto:[log in to unmask],">[log in to unmask],</A> please cc: me on your reply <A HREF="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>.<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=1 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Cordially</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=1 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Jack</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 07:58:35 +0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
fullname <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: fullname <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: DSO National Laboratories
Subject: Re: Looking for Happy Holden
X-To: "Sauer, Steven T." <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Thank you so much for your help.
Regards - Wee Mei
"Sauer, Steven T." wrote:
> Good Morning Wee Mei,
> I took the following directly from a recent article in CircuiTree Magazine:
> Happy Holden is manager of advanced technologies for Westwood Associates
> (West Haven, CT). He is responsible for next-generation printed circuit
> manufacturing technologies, advanced design tools, and design consulting.
> Prior to joining Westwood, he was a consultant with TechLead Corporation,
> and had been at Hewlett-Packard for over 27 years. Holden formally managed
> Hewlett Packard's application organizations in the Far East and holds
> degrees in Chemical Engineering and Computer Science. If you have questions,
> he can be contacted via e-mail at [log in to unmask]
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fullname [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 12:15 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] Looking for Happy Holden
>
> I would like to have Happy Holden's contact especially email address.
> Your reply would be appreciated.
>
> Regards - Wee Mei
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 08:00:32 +0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
fullname <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: fullname <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: DSO National Laboratories
Subject: Re: Looking for Happy Holden
X-To: [log in to unmask]
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Thanks for the information, Moonman.
Regards - Wee Mei
Earl Moon wrote:
> Check over at the CircuiTree magazine forum. He's on all the time.
>
> Earl
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "fullname" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 12:14 AM
> Subject: [TN] Looking for Happy Holden
>
> > I would like to have Happy Holden's contact especially email address.
> > Your reply would be appreciated.
> >
> > Regards - Wee Mei
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
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> ext.5315
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
>
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Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 17:32:34 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
David Douthit <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: David Douthit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Proposed lifting of component date code restrictions
X-To: Jack Crawford <[log in to unmask]>
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Jack,
I agree with Steve's comments. The divergence between the commercial
and high reliability electronics is a very serious issue.
Any proposal that effects configuration control must be carefully
weighed. Trying to save money no matter what the cost is a
very easy trap to step into.
Standardizing the date code process is needed.
Use of date codes is needed for "life time" buys of COTS when
obsolescence problems are present.
Configuration control issues can also cause problems with commercial
OEMs.
Unless tracking methods are in place part failures by lot would be
difficult to isolate in higher assemblies.
This could create a much larger recall condition.
Just some comments.
David A. Douthit
Manager
LoCan LLC
Jack Crawford wrote:
> IPC has become aware that the National Electronics Distributors
> Association (NEDA) has posted a white paper discussing the proposed
> lifting of date code restrictions and they have requested comments
> from end users as well as component suppliers and distributors. The
> paper can be viewed at http://www.nedassoc.org/whitedat.html. Comments
> can be provided to me on or off net; we'll compile them and forward to
> NEDA. If you comment to NEDA directly [log in to unmask], please cc: me
> on your reply
> [log in to unmask] ==========================================
>
> APEX 2003 - the industry's premier trade show in Electronics
> Manufacturing, March 31-April 2, 2003, Anaheim, California.
> More information on website www.goapex.org
> --------
> Jack Crawford, IPC Director of Assembly Standards and Technology
> 2215 Sanders Road, Northbrook IL 60062-6135
> [log in to unmask]
> 847-790-5393
> fax 847-504-2393
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Jack,
<p>I agree with Steve's comments. The divergence between the commercial
and high reliability electronics is a very serious issue.
<br>Any proposal that effects configuration control must be carefully weighed.
Trying to save money no matter what the cost is a
<br>very easy trap to step into.
<p>Standardizing the date code process is needed.
<br>Use of date codes is needed for "life time" buys of COTS when obsolescence
problems are present.
<p>Configuration control issues can also cause problems with commercial
OEMs.
<br>Unless tracking methods are in place part failures by lot would be
difficult to isolate in higher assemblies.
<br>This could create a much larger recall condition.
<p>Just some comments.
<p>David A. Douthit
<br>Manager
<br>LoCan LLC
<p>Jack Crawford wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE> <font size=-2>IPC has become aware that the
National Electronics Distributors Association (NEDA) has posted a white
paper discussing the proposed lifting of date code restrictions and they
have requested comments from end users as well as component suppliers and
distributors. The paper can be viewed at <a href="http://www.nedassoc.org/whitedat.html">http://www.nedassoc.org/whitedat.html</a>.</font> <font size=-2>Comments
can be provided to me on or off net; we'll compile them and forward to
NEDA. If you comment to NEDA directly <a href="mailto:[log in to unmask],">[log in to unmask],</a>
please cc: me on your reply <a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>.</font><font size=-2>Cordially</font><font size=-2>Jack</font> <font size=-2>==========================================</font>
<br><font size=-2>APEX 2003 - the industry's premier trade show in Electronics</font>
<br><font size=-2>Manufacturing, March 31-April 2, 2003, Anaheim, California.</font>
<br><font size=-2>More information on website <a href="http://www.goapex.org">www.goapex.org</a></font>
<br><font size=-2>--------</font>
<br><font size=-2>Jack Crawford, IPC Director of Assembly Standards and
Technology</font>
<br><font size=-2>2215 Sanders Road, Northbrook IL 60062-6135</font>
<br><font size=-2><a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a></font>
<br><font size=-2>847-790-5393</font>
<br><font size=-2>fax 847-504-2393</font></blockquote>
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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 08:40:29 +0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Via Plug
X-To: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
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I just did a calculation for some of our boards that use this via plug
material for enhancing thermal transfer between chips and thermal planes.
The calculation was to see by how much I would have to increase hole
plating thickness by in order to completely replace the epoxy in terms of
thermal conductivity.
I'm talking about a 24 mils diameter hole, plated initially to 1/2 oz
copper minimum and filled with epoxy. The board is 63 mils thick. Can you
guess what the increase is? ..... It's actually only 0.2 oz or 0.28 mils,
according to our thermal engineer. So why go to all the trouble and expense
of filling holes if the only purpose is thermal - a fairly small increase
in plating thickness is all that's needed.
Peter
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]> 30/04/2002 05:49 AM
Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
Please respond to "TechNet E-Mail Forum."; Please respond to Earl Moon
To: [log in to unmask]
cc: (bcc: DUNCAN Peter/Asst Prin Engr/ST Aero/ST Group)
Subject: Re: [TN] Via Plug
Don't mean to but in, but what the hell. Just think how much surface copper
would be plated and how much resist would have to be applied and how much
plating overhang would be involved even with several resist layers applied,
etc..
MoonMan
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Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 19:53:45 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Praveen Kumar <[log in to unmask]>
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Subject: Mechanical Strength of Solder Joints
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Hi All,
I am looking for a technical paper that details the mechanical strength of solder joints, BGAs in particular . In addition, are there any specifications in this regard?
I would really appreciate it if i could obtain a soft copy of the same.
Thanks and have a nice day.
Praveen
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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 13:57:37 +0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
fullname <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: fullname <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: DSO National Laboratories
Subject: Re: Proposed lifting of component date code restrictions
X-To: [log in to unmask]
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I agree with Steve strongly.
Without any date code, it is mission impossible to trace which batch of
the components failed.
Regards - Wee Mei
[log in to unmask] wrote:
> I guess my first question is; If the datecodes currently mean
> different things depending on the manufacturer, why not standardize
> what datecodes really mean rather than get rid of them?
>
> The paper talks about all the advances that have been made
> understanding root causes concerning solderability issues, improved
> storage and handling methods, etc., then why do I continue to get
> moisture sensitive components from distributors in un-sealed
> packaging? But that's another issue...
>
> A recent issue here at my facility underscores the importance of a
> datecode on the part. We build an assembly for a customer that uses
> three 240-pin QFP DSP's from a well known manufacturer. So far, we've
> built-up over 200 assemblies for our customer. We shipped the
> assemblies to our customer and they integrated them into the higher
> level assembly, and discovered they don't work...not communicating at
> all with the rest of the system.
>
> Numerous phone calls to the manufacturer trying to find out what the
> problem could be resulted in "Nothing has changed with the part, the
> die hasn't changed, nothing..."
> Funny thing was our first pre-production shipment of the assemblies
> worked fine!!
>
> After looking a little closer, the first lot of assemblies contained
> DSP's that had a datecode that was 2000 or earlier, everything that's
> failing are later...but still, according to the device manufacturer;
> "Nothing has changed..."
>
> If there wasn't a datecode on the part, we wouldn't know what we could
> put on the assemblies and work. There is a lot of effort being
> expended to try and isolate what the problem really is (with no help
> from the device supplier), but for now we need to find parts that work
> so that it doesn't shut down production, the only solid way (for now)
> is to find parts within a certain date code.
>
> Now I'm faced with the possible task of reworking 200 assemblies, each
> with three 240-pin QFP's, with a early datecode part...fun stuff I
> know.
>
> -Steve Gregory-
>
>
>
>> IPC has become aware that the National Electronics Distributors
>> Association (NEDA) has posted a white paper discussing the proposed
>> lifting of date code restrictions and they have requested comments
>> from end users as well as component suppliers and distributors. The
>> paper can be viewed at http://www.nedassoc.org/whitedat.html.
>>
>> Comments can be provided to me on or off net; we'll compile them and
>> forward to NEDA. If you comment to NEDA directly [log in to unmask],
>> please cc: me on your reply [log in to unmask]
>>
>> Cordially
>> Jack
>
>
>
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<font face="Arial,Helvetica"><font size=-1>I agree with Steve strongly.</font></font><font face="Arial,Helvetica"><font size=-1></font></font>
<p><font face="Arial,Helvetica"><font size=-1>Without any date code, it
is mission impossible to trace which batch of the components failed.</font></font><font face="Arial,Helvetica"><font size=-1></font></font>
<p><font face="Arial,Helvetica"><font size=-1>Regards - Wee Mei</font></font>
<p>[log in to unmask] wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>I guess
my first question is; If the datecodes currently mean different things
depending on the manufacturer, why not standardize what datecodes really
mean rather than get rid of them?</font></font>
<p><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>The paper talks about all
the advances that have been made understanding root causes concerning solderability
issues, improved storage and handling methods, etc., then why do I continue
to get moisture sensitive components from distributors in un-sealed packaging?
But that's another issue...</font></font>
<p><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>A recent issue here at my
facility underscores the importance of a datecode on the part. We build
an assembly for a customer that uses three 240-pin QFP DSP's from a well
known manufacturer. So far, we've built-up over 200 assemblies for our
customer. We shipped the assemblies to our customer and they integrated
them into the higher level assembly, and discovered they don't work...not
communicating at all with the rest of the system.</font></font>
<p><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>Numerous phone calls to the
manufacturer trying to find out what the problem could be resulted in "Nothing
has changed with the part, the die hasn't changed, nothing..."</font></font>
<br><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>Funny thing was our first
pre-production shipment of the assemblies worked fine!!</font></font>
<p><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>After looking a little closer,
the first lot of assemblies contained DSP's that had a datecode that was
2000 or earlier, everything that's failing are later...but still, according
to the device manufacturer; "Nothing has changed..."</font></font>
<p><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>If there wasn't a datecode
on the part, we wouldn't know what we could put on the assemblies and work.
There is a lot of effort being expended to try and isolate what the problem
really is (with no help from the device supplier), but for now we need
to find parts that work so that it doesn't shut down production, the only
solid way (for now) is to find parts within a certain date code.</font></font>
<p><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>Now I'm faced with the possible
task of reworking 200 assemblies, each with three 240-pin QFP's, with a
early datecode part...fun stuff I know.</font></font>
<p><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>-Steve Gregory-</font></font>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><font face="Arial"><font color="#000000"><font size=-2>IPC
has become aware that the National Electronics Distributors Association
(NEDA) has posted a white paper discussing the proposed lifting of date
code restrictions and they have requested comments from end users as well
as component suppliers and distributors. The paper can be viewed at <a href="http://www.nedassoc.org/whitedat.html">http://www.nedassoc.org/whitedat.html</a>.</font></font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font color="#000000"><font size=-2>Comments can
be provided to me on or off net; we'll compile them and forward to NEDA.
If you comment to NEDA directly <a href="mailto:[log in to unmask],">[log in to unmask],</a>
please cc: me on your reply <a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>.</font></font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font color="#000000"><font size=-2>Cordially</font></font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font color="#000000"><font size=-2>Jack</font></font></font></blockquote>
<br> </blockquote>
</html>
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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 11:02:03 +0300
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Brian Ellis <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Brian Ellis <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Proposed lifting of component date code restrictions
X-To: Jack Crawford <[log in to unmask]>
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Jack
Although I'm not directly concerned, I read this paper and come to the
direct conclusion that the semiconductor industry are trying to weasel
out of their responsibilities.
"Twenty years ago, solderability problems were much more common than
today and certain metallurgical problems worsened over time, to the
extent that quality or reliability could have been compromised." These
guys are saying that the solderability of semiconductor packages - of
ALL types - will remain perfect: "The three year rule was adopted for
commercial procurement but is now irrelevant because of the
technological advances that the industry has made in the intervening
years.". I strongly dispute this assertion. It may be true that the
solderability of components has generally improved for fresh components
but it is not true that it will remain so for more than three years. Do
you know of any bare board fab shop that will guarantee the
solderability of all their products indefinitely?
The way I see this is that more emphasis will need to be placed on
goods-in testing of semiconductors for solderability and, perhaps, other
criteria, by the OEM, increasing his overheads, while the semiconductor
manufacturers rub their hands all the way to the bank, having weaseled
themselves out of their normal quality responsibilities.
On the other hand, I can see the difficulties that may be enegndered by
purchasers specifying dates. The easiest way of overcoming the problem,
IMHO, is for the semiconductor blokes to implement a substantial
surcharge on date-specific orders. This would have the double advantage
of encouraging assemblers not to specify dates except where they
consider it essential, for any reason, and it would cover the cost of
the extra hassle at the other end. Notwithstanding, I believe that if
the suppliers ship old packages, they should be prepared to cover the
extra cost to the assemblers if they do not meet full expectations of
quality, including solderability, cleanability, moisture absorption,
etc. This may also encourage them to ensure that very old inventory is
systematically replaced, because the cost of such guarantees would
probably exceed the value of most products.
Just some thoughts...
Best regards,
Brian
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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 17:19:15 +0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
zhang shoukai <[log in to unmask]>
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Organization: huawei technologies
Subject: The effect to printing from pas vs soldermask height
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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 17:26:35 +0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Proposed lifting of component date code restrictions
X-To: David Douthit <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Steve and David,
The paper doe not propose doign away with date codes. As stated in the
paper, manufacturers will continue to put date codes on parts. What they
ARE trying to do away with is customers demanding components younger than a
certain date code in order to avoid solderability issues due to ageing. The
paper is trying to make the point that in today's mature industry,
solderability issues have been addressed with advances in manufacturing
technology, handling and storage procedures, so the need to specify date
codes as well when ordering parts is not necessary (or should not be
necessary, especially for commercial manufacture). Basically, it seems,
distributors are fed up with having to sort through their stock to select
parts with specifically required date codes, when, they say, all the other
date codes are just as good. The paper is an attempt to highlight the
unnecessary sugar this puts in the petrol that drives a slick supply
system.
Having strictly marked the comprehension test like a good teacher, I'll add
my 2 cents worth. I'm in the Aerospace sector, so the paper does not
strictly relate to my area of business. However, I have had enough
experience, as Steve has, of components from particular date code batches
going sour. If this is a general problem, then the distributors and
manufacturers should be aware and remove faulty batches from the supply
chain stock, but one can never tell. So there are circumstances where being
able to specify particular date codes that are, or are not, suitable is a
necessary option to a purchasing department.
Further, although most of the industry is mature, some of it is not. There
are still firms that do not have, or cannot/will not afford the expense of
putting in expensive handling and storage facilities and procedures. These
companies, it may be argued, should be the first to be put against the wall
when the revolution comes, but nevertheless they're out here. This is not
directly relevant to the paper, as the authors will take the stand that
improper handling and storage that gives rise to solderability issues is
not the problem of the OEM's/distributors. It will be up to the companies
to ensure their handling and storage complies with recommendations given.
The paper does include a number of assumptions about the industry that may
be overlooking genuine problems that could appear if the paper's proposal
is introduced.
I'm taking the paper's contents more as a plea for realism, rather than a
hard plan to ban the stating of date codes as a requirement. It does, after
all, mention get-out clauses, such as contractual requirements that are
placed on a purchaser to only buy parts of specific date codes, so I don't
see it as anything to get too excited about.
So many words for 2 cents - shows what they're probably worth, eh?
Peter
David Douthit <[log in to unmask]> 30/04/2002 08:32 AM
Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
Please respond to "TechNet E-Mail Forum."; Please respond to David Douthit
To: [log in to unmask]
cc: (bcc: DUNCAN Peter/Asst Prin Engr/ST Aero/ST Group)
Subject: Re: [TN] Proposed lifting of component date
code restrictions
Jack,
I agree with Steve's comments. The divergence between the commercial and
high reliability electronics is a very serious issue.
Any proposal that effects configuration control must be carefully weighed.
Trying to save money no matter what the cost is a
very easy trap to step into.
Standardizing the date code process is needed.
Use of date codes is needed for "life time" buys of COTS when obsolescence
problems are present.
Configuration control issues can also cause problems with commercial OEMs.
Unless tracking methods are in place part failures by lot would be
difficult to isolate in higher assemblies.
This could create a much larger recall condition.
Just some comments.
David A. Douthit
Manager
LoCan LLC
Jack Crawford wrote:
IPC has become aware that the National Electronics Distributors
Association (NEDA) has posted a white paper discussing the proposed
lifting of date code restrictions and they have requested comments
from end users as well as component suppliers and distributors. The
paper can be viewed at http://www.nedassoc.org/whitedat.html. Comments
can be provided to me on or off net; we'll compile them and forward to
NEDA. If you comment to NEDA directly [log in to unmask], please cc: me
on your reply [log in to unmask]
==========================================
APEX 2003 - the industry's premier trade show in Electronics
Manufacturing, March 31-April 2, 2003, Anaheim, California.
More information on website www.goapex.org
--------
Jack Crawford, IPC Director of Assembly Standards and Technology
2215 Sanders Road, Northbrook IL 60062-6135
[log in to unmask]
847-790-5393
fax 847-504-2393
[This e-mail is confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the
intended recipient, please delete it and notify us immediately; you should
not copy or use it for any purpose, nor disclose its contents to any other
person. Thank you.]
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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 06:44:01 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Proposed lifting of component date code restrictions
X-To: fullname <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0046_01C1F012.69EC0E80"
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Traceability went out the window with cots. Used to maintain =
traceability to the second metallization layer. If a pilot crashed, =
his/her remains seldom recoverable but components were at times.
Earl
By the way, if you're out on the great American highways and byways, =
you'll notice almost as many trucks/truckers/f------, etc. Hell, they =
get paid 50 cents a mile and make nearly 50K a year. Whoopie shit, where =
do I sign up - truckmasters I think it is.
----- Original Message -----=20
From: fullname=20
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 1:57 AM
Subject: Re: [TN] Proposed lifting of component date code restrictions
I agree with Steve strongly.=20
Without any date code, it is mission impossible to trace which batch =
of the components failed.=20
Regards - Wee Mei=20
[log in to unmask] wrote:=20
I guess my first question is; If the datecodes currently mean =
different things depending on the manufacturer, why not standardize what =
datecodes really mean rather than get rid of them?=20
The paper talks about all the advances that have been made =
understanding root causes concerning solderability issues, improved =
storage and handling methods, etc., then why do I continue to get =
moisture sensitive components from distributors in un-sealed packaging? =
But that's another issue...=20
A recent issue here at my facility underscores the importance of a =
datecode on the part. We build an assembly for a customer that uses =
three 240-pin QFP DSP's from a well known manufacturer. So far, we've =
built-up over 200 assemblies for our customer. We shipped the assemblies =
to our customer and they integrated them into the higher level assembly, =
and discovered they don't work...not communicating at all with the rest =
of the system.=20
Numerous phone calls to the manufacturer trying to find out what the =
problem could be resulted in "Nothing has changed with the part, the die =
hasn't changed, nothing..."=20
Funny thing was our first pre-production shipment of the assemblies =
worked fine!!=20
After looking a little closer, the first lot of assemblies contained =
DSP's that had a datecode that was 2000 or earlier, everything that's =
failing are later...but still, according to the device manufacturer; =
"Nothing has changed..."=20
If there wasn't a datecode on the part, we wouldn't know what we =
could put on the assemblies and work. There is a lot of effort being =
expended to try and isolate what the problem really is (with no help =
from the device supplier), but for now we need to find parts that work =
so that it doesn't shut down production, the only solid way (for now) is =
to find parts within a certain date code.=20
Now I'm faced with the possible task of reworking 200 assemblies, =
each with three 240-pin QFP's, with a early datecode part...fun stuff I =
know.=20
-Steve Gregory-=20
=20
=20
IPC has become aware that the National Electronics Distributors =
Association (NEDA) has posted a white paper discussing the proposed =
lifting of date code restrictions and they have requested comments from =
end users as well as component suppliers and distributors. The paper can =
be viewed at http://www.nedassoc.org/whitedat.html.=20
Comments can be provided to me on or off net; we'll compile them =
and forward to NEDA. If you comment to NEDA directly [log in to unmask], =
please cc: me on your reply [log in to unmask]
Cordially=20
Jack
=20
------=_NextPart_000_0046_01C1F012.69EC0E80
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2715.400" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Traceability went out the window with =
cots. Used to=20
maintain traceability to the second metallization layer. If a pilot =
crashed,=20
his/her remains seldom recoverable but components were at =
times.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Earl</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>By the way, if you're out on the great =
American=20
highways and byways, you'll notice almost as many =
trucks/truckers/f------, etc.=20
Hell, they get paid 50 cents a mile and make nearly 50K a year. Whoopie =
shit,=20
where do I sign up - truckmasters I think it is.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A [log in to unmask] =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">fullname</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A [log in to unmask]
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, April 30, 2002 =
1:57=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [TN] Proposed =
lifting of=20
component date code restrictions</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=3DArial,Helvetica><FONT size=3D-1>I agree =
with Steve=20
strongly.</FONT></FONT><FONT face=3DArial,Helvetica><FONT =
size=3D-1></FONT></FONT>=20
<P><FONT face=3DArial,Helvetica><FONT size=3D-1>Without any date code, =
it is=20
mission impossible to trace which batch of the components=20
failed.</FONT></FONT><FONT face=3DArial,Helvetica><FONT =
size=3D-1></FONT></FONT>=20
<P><FONT face=3DArial,Helvetica><FONT size=3D-1>Regards - Wee =
Mei</FONT></FONT>=20
<P><A href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A> wrote:=20
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3D"CITE"><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =
size=3D-1>I guess my=20
first question is; If the datecodes currently mean different things=20
depending on the manufacturer, why not standardize what datecodes =
really=20
mean rather than get rid of them?</FONT></FONT>=20
<P><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D-1>The paper talks =
about all the=20
advances that have been made understanding root causes concerning=20
solderability issues, improved storage and handling methods, etc., =
then why=20
do I continue to get moisture sensitive components from distributors =
in=20
un-sealed packaging? But that's another issue...</FONT></FONT>=20
<P><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D-1>A recent issue here =
at my=20
facility underscores the importance of a datecode on the part. We =
build an=20
assembly for a customer that uses three 240-pin QFP DSP's from a =
well known=20
manufacturer. So far, we've built-up over 200 assemblies for our =
customer.=20
We shipped the assemblies to our customer and they integrated them =
into the=20
higher level assembly, and discovered they don't work...not =
communicating at=20
all with the rest of the system.</FONT></FONT>=20
<P><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D-1>Numerous phone calls =
to the=20
manufacturer trying to find out what the problem could be resulted =
in=20
"Nothing has changed with the part, the die hasn't changed,=20
nothing..."</FONT></FONT> <BR><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =
size=3D-1>Funny=20
thing was our first pre-production shipment of the assemblies worked =
fine!!</FONT></FONT>=20
<P><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D-1>After looking a =
little closer,=20
the first lot of assemblies contained DSP's that had a datecode that =
was=20
2000 or earlier, everything that's failing are later...but still, =
according=20
to the device manufacturer; "Nothing has changed..."</FONT></FONT>=20
<P><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D-1>If there wasn't a =
datecode on=20
the part, we wouldn't know what we could put on the assemblies and =
work.=20
There is a lot of effort being expended to try and isolate what the =
problem=20
really is (with no help from the device supplier), but for now we =
need to=20
find parts that work so that it doesn't shut down production, the =
only solid=20
way (for now) is to find parts within a certain date =
code.</FONT></FONT>=20
<P><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D-1>Now I'm faced with =
the possible=20
task of reworking 200 assemblies, each with three 240-pin QFP's, =
with a=20
early datecode part...fun stuff I know.</FONT></FONT>=20
<P><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D-1>-Steve =
Gregory-</FONT></FONT>=20
<BR> <BR> =20
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff =
2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"=20
TYPE=3D"CITE"><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT =
size=3D-2>IPC has=20
become aware that the National Electronics Distributors =
Association (NEDA)=20
has posted a white paper discussing the proposed lifting of date =
code=20
restrictions and they have requested comments from end users as =
well as=20
component suppliers and distributors. The paper can be viewed at =
<A=20
=
href=3D"http://www.nedassoc.org/whitedat.html">http://www.nedassoc.org/wh=
itedat.html</A>.</FONT></FONT></FONT>=20
<P><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT =
size=3D-2>Comments can be=20
provided to me on or off net; we'll compile them and forward to =
NEDA. If=20
you comment to NEDA directly <A=20
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask],">[log in to unmask],</A> please =
cc: me on=20
your reply <A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>.</FONT></FO=
NT></FONT>=20
<P><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT=20
size=3D-2>Cordially</FONT></FONT></FONT> <BR><FONT =
face=3DArial><FONT=20
color=3D#000000><FONT=20
=
size=3D-2>Jack</FONT></FONT></FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> </BLOCKQUOT=
E></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 05:57:17 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Proposed lifting of component date code restrictions
Pardon my ettiquiteee. This post should not have happened. I keep forgetting
I can reply from my outlook thing.
MoonMan
Actually, the first part about costs should apply, not the truck driving
stuff though I'll see you, little girl in your bright red convertible, down
the road soon if the economy gets worse.
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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 05:58:58 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The effect to printing from pas vs soldermask height
X-To: [log in to unmask]
Never had a problem with thousands of OSP/OCC boards non solder mask defined.
MoonMan
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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 06:01:46 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Via Plug
X-To: [log in to unmask]
Peter,
As you say, no big change. Always used holes, especially on board edges say
1/4" wide copper strips, as heat pipes for convection and conduction to a
cold wall. Also used mounting "studs" elsewhere when castings used so heat
could be conducted to the casting from various hot areas in various board
locations.
Earl
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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 06:13:17 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Bloomquist, Ken" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Bloomquist, Ken" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Proposed lifting of component date code restrictions
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I wonder how long it would take the component manufacturers to start marking
date codes again if a problem was found within a part and they either had to
test everything they had to sort out the problem and throw everything away
and start over? I agree that having the suppliers sort for date codes
because of assumed solderability problems is a problem but there really
needs to be a date code.
KennyB
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<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=889570813-30042002>I
wonder how long it would take the component manufacturers to start marking date
codes again if a problem was found within a part and they either had to test
everything they had to sort out the problem and throw everything away and start
over? I agree that having the suppliers sort for date codes because of
assumed solderability problems is a problem but there really needs to be a date
code.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=889570813-30042002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=889570813-30042002>KennyB</SPAN></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 08:45:18 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Kathy Kuhlow <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Kathy Kuhlow <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Proposed lifting of component date code restrictions
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There are many instances in everyone's career where we sorted by or found =
problems with date codes. Many times that was the only sort criteria. =
Just got bit again from a broker for a very old part, just finished our =
450 PC rework. =20
It also makes me very concerned having been in serious medical device =
assembly. Now the proposal would allow what ever date code out and lose =
that traceability for the next generation of pacemakers and various other =
life support systems or military applications like a shuttle. The =
manufacturer's may know more about handling, processing, etc but the =
distributors don't know nor do the brokers. =20
Not one manufacturer out there is always providing 100% quality, there are =
problems. The only thing that can make this a possibility in my mind =
would be if the manufacturers are going to support all parts when an issue =
comes up and the financial burden to remove all from inventory instead of =
a specific batch. =20
Don't let them lose the date code that we all have come to depend on.
Kathy =20
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Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="TEXT.htm"
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<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2715.400" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
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<DIV>There are many instances in everyone's career where we sorted by or found
problems with date codes. Many times that was the only sort
criteria. Just got bit again from a broker for a very old part, just
finished our 450 PC rework. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>It also makes me very concerned having been in serious medical device
assembly. Now the proposal would allow what ever date code out and lose
that traceability for the next generation of pacemakers and various other life
support systems or military applications like a shuttle. The
manufacturer's may know more about handling, processing, etc but the
distributors don't know nor do the brokers. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Not one manufacturer out there is always providing 100% quality, there are
problems. The only thing that can make this a possibility in my mind would
be if the manufacturers are going to support all parts when an issue comes up
and the financial burden to remove all from inventory instead of a specific
batch. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Don't let them lose the date code that we all have come to depend on.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Kathy </DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 07:34:32 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Crepeau, Phil" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Crepeau, Phil" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Proposed lifting of component date code restrictions
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hi,
why doesn't neda encourage their members to offer two levels of pricing... one for orders that include date code requirements and one for orders that don't? the distributors can present the risks/benefits to their customers. i guess i'm too jaded to think that the distributors have anyone's interest at heart other than theirs. i suppose that eventually we will be told that it will be in our interest to eliminate date code requirements altogether.
phil
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=510362814-30042002>hi,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=510362814-30042002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=510362814-30042002>why
doesn't neda encourage their members to offer two levels of pricing... one for
orders that include date code requirements and one for orders that don't?
the distributors can present the risks/benefits to their customers. i
guess i'm too jaded to think that the distributors have anyone's interest at
heart other than theirs. i suppose that eventually we will be told that it
will be in our interest to eliminate date code requirements
altogether.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=510362814-30042002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=510362814-30042002>phil</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT
lang=0 style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face=Arial color=#000000 size=2
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><BR></DIV></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 11:42:03 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
bbarr <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: bbarr <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Proposed lifting of component date code restrictions
X-To: Jack Crawford <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Please everyone, before there is mass hysteria, go back and reread the
paper. Nobody is proposing doing away with date codes! Just the practice of
ordering specific date codes unless there is a good reason for it.
Bob
=======================
Robert Barr
Manufacturing Engineering
Formation, Inc.
Voice: 856-234-5020 x3035
Fax: 856-234-6679
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Jack Crawford
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 4:54 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Proposed lifting of component date code restrictions
IPC has become aware that the National Electronics Distributors
Association (NEDA) has posted a white paper discussing the proposed lifting
of date code restrictions and they have requested comments from end users as
well as component suppliers and distributors. The paper can be viewed at
http://www.nedassoc.org/whitedat.html.
Comments can be provided to me on or off net; we'll compile them and
forward to NEDA. If you comment to NEDA directly [log in to unmask], please
cc: me on your reply [log in to unmask]
Cordially
Jack
==========================================
APEX 2003 - the industry's premier trade show in Electronics
Manufacturing, March 31-April 2, 2003, Anaheim, California.
More information on website www.goapex.org
--------
Jack Crawford, IPC Director of Assembly Standards and Technology
2215 Sanders Road, Northbrook IL 60062-6135
[log in to unmask]
847-790-5393
fax 847-504-2393
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<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY style=3D"MARGIN-TOP: 2px; FONT: 8pt MS Sans Serif; MARGIN-LEFT: =
2px">
<DIV><SPAN class=3D420073915-30042002><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Please =
everyone,=20
before there is mass hysteria, go back and reread the paper. Nobody is =
proposing=20
doing away with date codes! Just the practice of ordering specific date =
codes=20
unless there is a good reason for it.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<P><FONT =
size=3D2>Bob<BR><BR>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR>Robert=20
Barr<BR>Manufacturing Engineering<BR>Formation, Inc.<BR>Voice: =
856-234-5020=20
x3035<BR>Fax: 856-234-6679 </FONT></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> TechNet=20
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Jack =
Crawford<BR><B>Sent:</B>=20
Monday, April 29, 2002 4:54 PM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
[log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> [TN] Proposed lifting of component =
date=20
code restrictions<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1>IPC has become aware that t</FONT><FONT =
size=3D1>he National=20
Electronics Distributors Association (NEDA) has posted a white paper=20
discussing the proposed lifting of date code restrictions and they =
have=20
requested comments from end users as well as component suppliers and=20
distributors. The paper can be viewed at <A=20
=
href=3D"http://www.nedassoc.org/whitedat.html">http://www.nedassoc.org/wh=
itedat.html</A>.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1>Comments can be provided to me on or off net; =
we'll compile=20
them and forward to NEDA. If you comment to NEDA directly <A=20
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask],">[log in to unmask],</A> please =
cc: me on=20
your reply <A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>.<BR></FONT>=
</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1>Cordially</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1>Jack</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT =
size=3D1>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR>APEX =
2003 -=20
the industry's premier trade show in Electronics<BR>Manufacturing, =
March=20
31-April 2, 2003, Anaheim, California.<BR>More information on website =
<A=20
href=3D"http://www.goapex.org">www.goapex.org</A><BR>--------<BR>Jack =
Crawford,=20
IPC Director of Assembly Standards and Technology<BR>2215 Sanders =
Road,=20
Northbrook IL 60062-6135<BR><A=20
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A> =
<BR>847-790-5393<BR>fax=20
847-504-2393</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 11:03:44 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Mel Parrish <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Mel Parrish <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Proposed lifting of component date code restrictions
X-To: Kathy Kuhlow <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Just for grins, how many have run into variation in component materials and
processes such as a different die source, adhesives, process profiles, cure,
etc. within a specific date code?
Scary, isn't it.
Mel Parrish
Soldering Technology International
102 Tribble Drive
Madison, AL 35758
256 705 5530
256 705 5538 Fax
[log in to unmask]
www.solderingtech.com
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Kathy Kuhlow
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 8:45 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Proposed lifting of component date code restrictions
There are many instances in everyone's career where we sorted by or found
problems with date codes. Many times that was the only sort criteria. Just
got bit again from a broker for a very old part, just finished our 450 PC
rework.
It also makes me very concerned having been in serious medical device
assembly. Now the proposal would allow what ever date code out and lose
that traceability for the next generation of pacemakers and various other
life support systems or military applications like a shuttle. The
manufacturer's may know more about handling, processing, etc but the
distributors don't know nor do the brokers.
Not one manufacturer out there is always providing 100% quality, there are
problems. The only thing that can make this a possibility in my mind would
be if the manufacturers are going to support all parts when an issue comes
up and the financial burden to remove all from inventory instead of a
specific batch.
Don't let them lose the date code that we all have come to depend on.
Kathy
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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 11:05:54 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Jack Crawford <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Jack Crawford <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: TPCA Show 2002 and Forum
X-To: [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask]
X-cc: David Bergman <[log in to unmask]>,
Mary Tunk <[log in to unmask]>
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The following message is posted at the request of David Bergman, IPC VP =
Standards, Technology and International Relations. IPC is secretariate for =
World Electronics Circuit Council (WECC). More info on IPC website, =
search on WECC; here are a couple of shortcuts http://www.ipc.org/html/june=
99edit.htm and http://www.ipc.org/html/apr00edit.htm=20
Please contact Mary Tunk to receive the call for papers (attachments are =
stripped off the forum msgs) and let me know if you have questions.
Cordially
Jack
#############
Dear Colleagues,
Subject: WECC Member Booth Stand in WECC Corner at TPCA Show 2002
We are going to have TPCA Show 2002 at Taipei World Trade Center (TWTC) =
Exhibition Hall 1 and 2 from Oct 31. to Nov. 2, 2002. We warmly invite =
you all the WECC member associations to the third TPCA Show this year. =
Also, I would like to know if your association wishes to have a booth =
stand at TPCA Show 2002 in the WECC corner. If your association would =
like to have more booth, or wishes to have a new space, please let me know =
as soon as possible. [log in to unmask]
Besides, please see the call for paper of TPCA Show 2002 Forum and help us =
to forward that to your members.
Thanks for your kind attention. We are looking forward to seeing you in =
TPCA Show Taipei.
Best regards,
Kevin Wang
TPCA
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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 11:27:07 -0500
Reply-To: "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Kari Rambo <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Altron Inc
Subject: Re: Proposed lifting of component date code restrictions
MIME-Version: 1.0
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The paper is not suggesting that date codes be eliminated; only that
restrictions not be put on components with respect to date codes. For
example, many companies have policies stating if the date code indicates
components are more than a year old, the component must be rejected. The
white paper suggests that because of the advances in manufacturing and
storing the components, they don't "get old" anymore, and that the date
code doesn't really indicate the age of the component anyway (since the
coding is not standardized). For these reasons, it is suggested that date
code restrictions should not be placed on components.
I don't believe the paper is implying that traceability could also be
eliminated.
(If it is, they're nuts).
kjr
-----Original Message-----
From: Bloomquist, Ken [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 8:13 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Proposed lifting of component date code restrictions
I wonder how long it would take the component manufacturers to start
marking
date codes again if a problem was found within a part and they either had
to
test everything they had to sort out the problem and throw everything away
and start over? I agree that having the suppliers sort for date codes
because of assumed solderability problems is a problem but there really
needs to be a date code.
KennyB
<< File: ATT00007.html >>
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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 11:46:49 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
[log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Dave Hillman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Proposed lifting of component date code restrictions
X-To: [log in to unmask]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi Jack! Just a comment echoing the TechNet chorus - a component date code
is a tracking number which serves a multitude of purposes of which
solderability aspects are just one specific issue. I am also quite
skeptical of the white paper viewpoint of solderability being a "well
understood" and "controlled" topic - if that were the case then why are
there so many participants in the JSTD-002 committee involving the IPC,
EIA, and JEDEC associations? Heavens knows I would like to work on other
issues than solderability but I believe the white paper is offering a very,
very skewed viewpoint of solderability issues within the electronic
assembly industry.
Dave Hillman
JSTD 002A CoChairman
[log in to unmask]
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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 13:11:54 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Guy Ramsey <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Guy Ramsey <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Proposed lifting of component date code restrictions
X-To: bbarr <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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The proposal would relieve semi-conductor manufactures and distrubutors from
keeping track of date codes once they were "in the supply chain". This
would make it more difficult and expensive to get semiconductors
manufactured before or after a specific date for any reason . . . I can
think of many.
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of bbarr
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 11:42 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Proposed lifting of component date code restrictions
Please everyone, before there is mass hysteria, go back and reread the
paper. Nobody is proposing doing away with date codes! Just the practice of
ordering specific date codes unless there is a good reason for it.
Bob
=======================
Robert Barr
Manufacturing Engineering
Formation, Inc.
Voice: 856-234-5020 x3035
Fax: 856-234-6679
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Jack Crawford
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 4:54 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Proposed lifting of component date code restrictions
IPC has become aware that the National Electronics Distributors
Association (NEDA) has posted a white paper discussing the proposed lifting
of date code restrictions and they have requested comments from end users as
well as component suppliers and distributors. The paper can be viewed at
http://www.nedassoc.org/whitedat.html.
Comments can be provided to me on or off net; we'll compile them and
forward to NEDA. If you comment to NEDA directly [log in to unmask], please
cc: me on your reply [log in to unmask]
Cordially
Jack
==========================================
APEX 2003 - the industry's premier trade show in Electronics
Manufacturing, March 31-April 2, 2003, Anaheim, California.
More information on website www.goapex.org
--------
Jack Crawford, IPC Director of Assembly Standards and Technology
2215 Sanders Road, Northbrook IL 60062-6135
[log in to unmask]
847-790-5393
fax 847-504-2393
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<BODY style=3D"FONT: 8pt MS Sans Serif; MARGIN-LEFT: 2px; MARGIN-TOP: =
2px">
<DIV><FONT size=3D1><SPAN class=3D203100117-30042002>The proposal would =
relieve=20
semi-conductor manufactures and distrubutors from keeping track of date =
codes=20
once they were "in the supply chain". This would make it more =
difficult=20
and expensive to get semiconductors manufactured before or after a =
specific date=20
for any reason . . . I can think of many. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> TechNet=20
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<B>On Behalf Of</B> bbarr<BR><B>Sent:</B> =
Tuesday,=20
April 30, 2002 11:42 AM<BR><B>To:</B> =
[log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:=20
[TN] Proposed lifting of component date code =
restrictions<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D420073915-30042002><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Please everyone,=20
before there is mass hysteria, go back and reread the paper. Nobody is =
proposing doing away with date codes! Just the practice of ordering =
specific=20
date codes unless there is a good reason for it.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<P><FONT =
size=3D2>Bob<BR><BR>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR>Robert=20
Barr<BR>Manufacturing Engineering<BR>Formation, Inc.<BR>Voice: =
856-234-5020=20
x3035<BR>Fax: 856-234-6679 </FONT></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
<DIV align=3Dleft class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> TechNet=20
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Jack =
Crawford<BR><B>Sent:</B>=20
Monday, April 29, 2002 4:54 PM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
[log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> [TN] Proposed lifting of =
component date=20
code restrictions<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1>IPC has become aware that t</FONT><FONT =
size=3D1>he National=20
Electronics Distributors Association (NEDA) has posted a white paper =
discussing the proposed lifting of date code restrictions and they =
have=20
requested comments from end users as well as component suppliers and =
distributors. The paper can be viewed at <A=20
=
href=3D"http://www.nedassoc.org/whitedat.html">http://www.nedassoc.org/wh=
itedat.html</A>.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1>Comments can be provided to me on or off net; =
we'll=20
compile them and forward to NEDA. If you comment to NEDA =
directly <A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask],">[log in to unmask],</A> please =
cc: me=20
on your reply <A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>.<BR></FONT>=
</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1>Cordially</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1>Jack</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT =
size=3D1>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR>APEX =
2003 -=20
the industry's premier trade show in Electronics<BR>Manufacturing, =
March=20
31-April 2, 2003, Anaheim, California.<BR>More information on =
website <A=20
=
href=3D"http://www.goapex.org">www.goapex.org</A><BR>--------<BR>Jack=20
Crawford, IPC Director of Assembly Standards and Technology<BR>2215 =
Sanders=20
Road, Northbrook IL 60062-6135<BR><A=20
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A> =
<BR>847-790-5393<BR>fax=20
847-504-2393</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 14:04:13 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Proposed lifting of component date code restrictions
X-To: Mel Parrish <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Many times and more so recently. Sorry, no grins here.
MoonMan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mel Parrish" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 12:03 PM
Subject: Re: [TN] Proposed lifting of component date code restrictions
> Just for grins, how many have run into variation in component materials
and
> processes such as a different die source, adhesives, process profiles,
cure,
> etc. within a specific date code?
> Scary, isn't it.
>
> Mel Parrish
> Soldering Technology International
> 102 Tribble Drive
> Madison, AL 35758
> 256 705 5530
> 256 705 5538 Fax
> [log in to unmask]
> www.solderingtech.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Kathy Kuhlow
> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 8:45 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Proposed lifting of component date code restrictions
>
>
> There are many instances in everyone's career where we sorted by or found
> problems with date codes. Many times that was the only sort criteria.
Just
> got bit again from a broker for a very old part, just finished our 450 PC
> rework.
>
> It also makes me very concerned having been in serious medical device
> assembly. Now the proposal would allow what ever date code out and lose
> that traceability for the next generation of pacemakers and various other
> life support systems or military applications like a shuttle. The
> manufacturer's may know more about handling, processing, etc but the
> distributors don't know nor do the brokers.
>
> Not one manufacturer out there is always providing 100% quality, there are
> problems. The only thing that can make this a possibility in my mind
would
> be if the manufacturers are going to support all parts when an issue comes
> up and the financial burden to remove all from inventory instead of a
> specific batch.
>
> Don't let them lose the date code that we all have come to depend on.
>
> Kathy
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 13:09:00 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Mel Parrish <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Mel Parrish <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: PWB Fab Resource
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Looking for a fine pitch board fab resource for matte Sn.
Appreciate any information you may have and I'm available offline.
Mel Parrish
Soldering Technology International
102 Tribble Drive
Madison, AL 35758
256 705 5530
256 705 5538 Fax
[log in to unmask]
www.solderingtech.com
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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 14:16:43 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
James TerVeen <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: James TerVeen <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Proposed lifting of component date code restrictions
X-To: bbarr <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Bob, I do agree with you. The way I read this white paper is they want to
eliminate the use on date codes when ordering a part. They say nothing
about eliminating the date code. Your take on this document is right on.
Jim
bbarr
<bbarr@FORMATI To: [log in to unmask]
ON.COM> cc:
Sent by: Subject: Re: [TN] Proposed lifting of
TechNet component date code restrictions
<[log in to unmask]
RG>
04/30/02 11:42
AM
Please respond
to "TechNet
E-Mail
Forum.";
Please respond
to bbarr
Please everyone, before there is mass hysteria, go back and reread the
paper. Nobody is proposing doing away with date codes! Just the practice of
ordering specific date codes unless there is a good reason for it.
Bob
=======================
Robert Barr
Manufacturing Engineering
Formation, Inc.
Voice: 856-234-5020 x3035
Fax: 856-234-6679
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Jack Crawford
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 4:54 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Proposed lifting of component date code restrictions
IPC has become aware that the National Electronics Distributors
Association (NEDA) has posted a white paper discussing the proposed
lifting of date code restrictions and they have requested comments from
end users as well as component suppliers and distributors. The paper can
be viewed at http://www.nedassoc.org/whitedat.html.
Comments can be provided to me on or off net; we'll compile them and
forward to NEDA. If you comment to NEDA directly [log in to unmask], please
cc: me on your reply [log in to unmask]
Cordially
Jack
==========================================
APEX 2003 - the industry's premier trade show in Electronics
Manufacturing, March 31-April 2, 2003, Anaheim, California.
More information on website www.goapex.org
--------
Jack Crawford, IPC Director of Assembly Standards and Technology
2215 Sanders Road, Northbrook IL 60062-6135
[log in to unmask]
847-790-5393
fax 847-504-2393
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 13:29:43 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
[log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Richard Carruth <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Proposed lifting of component date code restrictions
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
If manufacturers continue to provide date codes for their products but
distributors discontinue tracking and segregation by date codes the result will
be, mixed date code lots sent to the customer. In many cases assembly houses
that use raw components must capture suspect material by date code. In the event
of field failures or customer defects resulting in corrective action
requirements it is usually imperative to know the problem parts date code to
cover effectivity. I feel that the date codes application should be
standardized. I have also seen where we needed to specifically order certain
date codes because the later date code product did not function properly for the
application.
On the topic of old components verses new components. I have personally seen
some pretty old, nasty components from brokers that appeared to have been
previously used and some that were so oxidized that the leads were nearly black.
So the solderability of 3 or more year old components is a concern. Date codes
need to be standardized and tracked to ensure product quality and
accountability.
Regards,
Richard Carruth
Quality Engineer
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 21:55:25 +0200
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Gaby Bogdan <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Gaby Bogdan <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Proposed lifting of component date code restrictions
X-To: David Douthit <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="Boundary_(ID_vke/nhduJ4clxWR29vd4hw)"
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--Boundary_(ID_vke/nhduJ4clxWR29vd4hw)
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Also, all components??
Today I dealt with a very trivial connector, solderability problems on specific batch, identified by date code.
Advances, technology, et caetera... how much time would it have taken without the date code?
Gaby
----- Original Message -----
From: David Douthit
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 2:32 AM
Subject: Re: [TN] Proposed lifting of component date code restrictions
Jack,
I agree with Steve's comments. The divergence between the commercial and high reliability electronics is a very serious issue.
Any proposal that effects configuration control must be carefully weighed. Trying to save money no matter what the cost is a
very easy trap to step into.
Standardizing the date code process is needed.
Use of date codes is needed for "life time" buys of COTS when obsolescence problems are present.
Configuration control issues can also cause problems with commercial OEMs.
Unless tracking methods are in place part failures by lot would be difficult to isolate in higher assemblies.
This could create a much larger recall condition.
Just some comments.
David A. Douthit
Manager
LoCan LLC
Jack Crawford wrote:
IPC has become aware that the National Electronics Distributors Association (NEDA) has posted a white paper discussing the proposed lifting of date code restrictions and they have requested comments from end users as well as component suppliers and distributors. The paper can be viewed at http://www.nedassoc.org/whitedat.html. Comments can be provided to me on or off net; we'll compile them and forward to NEDA. If you comment to NEDA directly [log in to unmask], please cc: me on your reply [log in to unmask] ==========================================
APEX 2003 - the industry's premier trade show in Electronics
Manufacturing, March 31-April 2, 2003, Anaheim, California.
More information on website www.goapex.org
--------
Jack Crawford, IPC Director of Assembly Standards and Technology
2215 Sanders Road, Northbrook IL 60062-6135
[log in to unmask]
847-790-5393
fax 847-504-2393
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Also, all components??</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Today I dealt with a very trivial connector,
solderability problems on specific batch, identified by date code.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Advances, technology, et caetera... how much time
would it have taken without the date code?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Gaby</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A [log in to unmask] href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">David Douthit</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A [log in to unmask]
href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, April 30, 2002 2:32
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [TN] Proposed lifting of
component date code restrictions</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Jack,
<P>I agree with Steve's comments. The divergence between the commercial
and high reliability electronics is a very serious issue. <BR>Any proposal
that effects configuration control must be carefully weighed. Trying to save
money no matter what the cost is a <BR>very easy trap to step into.
<P>Standardizing the date code process is needed. <BR>Use of date codes is
needed for "life time" buys of COTS when obsolescence problems are present.
<P>Configuration control issues can also cause problems with commercial OEMs.
<BR>Unless tracking methods are in place part failures by lot would be
difficult to isolate in higher assemblies. <BR>This could create a much larger
recall condition.
<P>Just some comments.
<P>David A. Douthit <BR>Manager <BR>LoCan LLC
<P>Jack Crawford wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE="CITE"> <FONT size=-2>IPC has become aware that the
National Electronics Distributors Association (NEDA) has posted a white
paper discussing the proposed lifting of date code restrictions and they
have requested comments from end users as well as component suppliers and
distributors. The paper can be viewed at <A
href="http://www.nedassoc.org/whitedat.html">http://www.nedassoc.org/whitedat.html</A>.</FONT> <FONT
size=-2>Comments can be provided to me on or off net; we'll compile them and
forward to NEDA. If you comment to NEDA directly <A
href="mailto:[log in to unmask],">[log in to unmask],</A> please cc: me on
your reply <A
href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>.</FONT><FONT
size=-2>Cordially</FONT><FONT size=-2>Jack</FONT> <FONT
size=-2>==========================================</FONT> <BR><FONT
size=-2>APEX 2003 - the industry's premier trade show in Electronics</FONT>
<BR><FONT size=-2>Manufacturing, March 31-April 2, 2003, Anaheim,
California.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=-2>More information on website <A
href="http://www.goapex.org">www.goapex.org</A></FONT> <BR><FONT
size=-2>--------</FONT> <BR><FONT size=-2>Jack Crawford, IPC Director of
Assembly Standards and Technology</FONT> <BR><FONT size=-2>2215 Sanders
Road, Northbrook IL 60062-6135</FONT> <BR><FONT size=-2><A
href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A></FONT> <BR><FONT
size=-2>847-790-5393</FONT> <BR><FONT size=-2>fax
847-504-2393</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
--Boundary_(ID_vke/nhduJ4clxWR29vd4hw)--
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=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 15:43:35 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Proposed lifting of component date code restrictions
X-To: [log in to unmask]
MIME-Version: 1.0
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always had a hard time with distributors and certs. no traceability possible
often. no test data concerning solderability or whatever. customers partly
to blame as price drives the whole thing with no recourse.
moonman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Carruth" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 2:29 PM
Subject: [TN] Proposed lifting of component date code restrictions
> If manufacturers continue to provide date codes for their products but
> distributors discontinue tracking and segregation by date codes the result
will
> be, mixed date code lots sent to the customer. In many cases assembly
houses
> that use raw components must capture suspect material by date code. In the
event
> of field failures or customer defects resulting in corrective action
> requirements it is usually imperative to know the problem parts date code
to
> cover effectivity. I feel that the date codes application should be
> standardized. I have also seen where we needed to specifically order
certain
> date codes because the later date code product did not function properly
for the
> application.
>
> On the topic of old components verses new components. I have personally
seen
> some pretty old, nasty components from brokers that appeared to have been
> previously used and some that were so oxidized that the leads were nearly
black.
> So the solderability of 3 or more year old components is a concern. Date
codes
> need to be standardized and tracked to ensure product quality and
> accountability.
>
> Regards,
>
> Richard Carruth
> Quality Engineer
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
> Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d
> To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in
> the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet
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SET Technet NOMAIL
> To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to
[log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest
> Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives
> Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm for additional
> information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-509-9700
ext.5315
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 15:21:58 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
"Mcmaster, Michael" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Mcmaster, Michael" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Via Plug
X-To: [log in to unmask]
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Peter
That's exactly what I was getting at. Most of our applications for CB-100
are for filled vias that need to be plated over to provide a solderable
surface and/or prevent solder from running out the bottom end of the via.
> ----------
> From: [log in to unmask][SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Reply To: TechNet E-Mail Forum.;[log in to unmask]
> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 5:40 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Via Plug
>
> I just did a calculation for some of our boards that use this via plug
> material for enhancing thermal transfer between chips and thermal planes.
> The calculation was to see by how much I would have to increase hole
> plating thickness by in order to completely replace the epoxy in terms of
> thermal conductivity.
>
> I'm talking about a 24 mils diameter hole, plated initially to 1/2 oz
> copper minimum and filled with epoxy. The board is 63 mils thick. Can you
> guess what the increase is? ..... It's actually only 0.2 oz or 0.28 mils,
> according to our thermal engineer. So why go to all the trouble and
> expense
> of filling holes if the only purpose is thermal - a fairly small increase
> in plating thickness is all that's needed.
>
> Peter
>
>
>
> Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]> 30/04/2002 05:49 AM
> Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
>
> Please respond to "TechNet E-Mail Forum."; Please respond to Earl Moon
>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> cc: (bcc: DUNCAN Peter/Asst Prin Engr/ST Aero/ST Group)
> Subject: Re: [TN] Via Plug
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Don't mean to but in, but what the hell. Just think how much surface
> copper
> would be plated and how much resist would have to be applied and how much
> plating overhang would be involved even with several resist layers
> applied,
> etc..
>
> MoonMan
>
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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 19:29:48 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Vacuum sealing equipment...
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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Hi All!
Our McDry dessicant cabinets have just been over-populated recently due to
having to open vendor-sealed packages looking for certain DATECODE
parts...(hmmm, this subject seems familiar for some odd reason...)
Anyhoo, we've got a regular thermal sealer here, but we have now seen the
need for a vacuum sealer...
A vacuum sealer just gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling knowing that air has
been sucked out of the packaging with a dessicant packed in there with the
parts, sealed off from the outside world as we know it, and they're slowly
suffocating, slowly.. slowly..slowly. The moisture being steadily drained
from their lifeless and uncaring souls...HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!
Ahem, 'scuse me. Kinda' got carried away there, didn't I? Didn't mean
to...really...my job isn't getting to me, it really isn't...honest.
I did a search and got a gazillion hits for vacuum sealers, do any of you
have one that you can recommend and like, to help me from having to make too
many decisions?
'preciate it!!!
-Steve Gregory-
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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 17:02:00 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
David Douthit <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: David Douthit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Proposed lifting of component date code restrictions
X-To: Mel Parrish <[log in to unmask]>
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Mel,
Careful, configuration control is a very touchy subject!!!
David A. Douthit
Manager
LoCan LLC
Mel Parrish wrote:
> Just for grins, how many have run into variation in component materials and
> processes such as a different die source, adhesives, process profiles, cure,
> etc. within a specific date code?
> Scary, isn't it.
>
> Mel Parrish
> Soldering Technology International
> 102 Tribble Drive
> Madison, AL 35758
> 256 705 5530
> 256 705 5538 Fax
> [log in to unmask]
> www.solderingtech.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Kathy Kuhlow
> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 8:45 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Proposed lifting of component date code restrictions
>
> There are many instances in everyone's career where we sorted by or found
> problems with date codes. Many times that was the only sort criteria. Just
> got bit again from a broker for a very old part, just finished our 450 PC
> rework.
>
> It also makes me very concerned having been in serious medical device
> assembly. Now the proposal would allow what ever date code out and lose
> that traceability for the next generation of pacemakers and various other
> life support systems or military applications like a shuttle. The
> manufacturer's may know more about handling, processing, etc but the
> distributors don't know nor do the brokers.
>
> Not one manufacturer out there is always providing 100% quality, there are
> problems. The only thing that can make this a possibility in my mind would
> be if the manufacturers are going to support all parts when an issue comes
> up and the financial burden to remove all from inventory instead of a
> specific batch.
>
> Don't let them lose the date code that we all have come to depend on.
>
> Kathy
>
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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 17:10:13 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>,
David Douthit <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: David Douthit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Proposed lifting of component date code restrictions
X-To: [log in to unmask]
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boundary="------------6250E4B547CBBED67430FC62"
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Dave,
Thank you for this; I believe the white paper is offering a very,
very skewed viewpoint of solderability issues within the electronic
assembly industry.
Self serving papers are all over the place. Some, such as this one, can create
massive problems if followed. Unfortunalty certain management types
(particularly in the current business climate) will grab anything that looks good.
This wastes time that we can ill afford.
David A. Douthit
Manager
LoCan LLC
Dave Hillman wrote:
> Hi Jack! Just a comment echoing the TechNet chorus - a component date code
> is a tracking number which serves a multitude of purposes of which
> solderability aspects are just one specific issue. I am also quite
> skeptical of the white paper viewpoint of solderability being a "well
> understood" and "controlled" topic - if that were the case then why are
> there so many participants in the JSTD-002 committee involving the IPC,
> EIA, and JEDEC associations? Heavens knows I would like to work on other
> issues than solderability but I believe the white paper is offering a very,
> very skewed viewpoint of solderability issues within the electronic
> assembly industry.
>
> Dave Hillman
> JSTD 002A CoChairman
> [log in to unmask]
>
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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
Dave,
<p>Thank you for this; <i>I believe the white paper is offering a very,</i>
<br><i>very skewed viewpoint of solderability issues within the electronic</i>
<br><i>assembly industry.</i><i></i>
<p>Self serving papers are all over the place. Some, such as this one,
can create
<br>massive problems if followed. Unfortunalty certain management types
<br>(particularly in the current business climate) will grab anything that
looks good.
<br>This wastes time that we can ill afford.
<p>David A. Douthit
<br>Manager
<br>LoCan LLC
<br>
<br>
<p>Dave Hillman wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>Hi Jack! Just a comment echoing the TechNet chorus
- a component date code
<br>is a tracking number which serves a multitude of purposes of which
<br>solderability aspects are just one specific issue. I am also quite
<br>skeptical of the white paper viewpoint of solderability being a "well
<br>understood" and "controlled" topic - if that were the case then why
are
<br>there so many participants in the JSTD-002 committee involving the
IPC,
<br>EIA, and JEDEC associations? Heavens knows I would like to work on
other
<br>issues than solderability but I believe the white paper is offering
a very,
<br>very skewed viewpoint of solderability issues within the electronic
<br>assembly industry.
<p>Dave Hillman
<br>JSTD 002A CoChairman
<br>[log in to unmask]
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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 23:14:12 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: A "NEDA" Oriented label...
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Was given a image of a label on packaging that's out there as we speak, as
something that would be more wide-spread if NEDA has their way...go to:
http://www.stevezeva.homestead.com
and look at NEDA label.jpg...
Really helps, doesn't it?
-Steve Gregory-
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