Charlie, Thanks for that insight. It sure brings out the near rage in me and, at the same time, excites to make me want to do better. Actually, I just wish everyone wanted to do better like the folks on this forum always asking questions and providing answers to them. I think sometimes I should go back to school and become a much better engineer as well as businessman. You cited Demming. He and Juran are my heroes along with the Georges, Steves, Werners, Daves, Dougs, and all the rest of the folks contributing so much to our industry. Hell, don't forget all the folks at IPC like David, Jack, and all, and so many more folks with little ego but a strong desire to do it right. I know it's getting harder out here. The technology is advancing at an exponential pace. Managers are forcing the timeline to market as investors demand more return on investments. Engineers maybe are not getting all they should from and out of school and, especially, we keep fixing stuff too often. I'm not at all discouraged by all that's going on. Foolishly, maybe as Brian has said, I believe in the DFM/CE concept and keep trying to reach some folks. As George said, fewer people are out there attending, listening, and learning and taking it home to do it right the first time. Hell, It's a living but I think it used to be so much more, Earl --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-509-9700 ext.5315 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------