Brian, Nice example,but: SME boss can blame not the ISO, but the consultants and the manuals he prepared.ISO request monitoring:yes .ISO request calibration procedures :yes.But ISO does not specify what should be monitored and how often calibrated. My example about calibration: the pH meter in the lab must be calibrated with pH 7 and 10 standarts before each pH measurement of alkaline etching solution where accuracy of 0.1 pH is requested and crucial. But pH meters in wastewater treatment system are calibrated once a month.The operator has to check once a day if pH meter is responding. Frequency and accuracy of calibration was set according according to our experience and needs. Edward Edward Szpruch Eltek Ltd P.O.Box 159 ; 49101 Petah Tikva Israel Tel ++972 3 9395050 , Fax ++972 3 9309581 e-mail [log in to unmask] > -----Original Message----- > From: Brian Ellis [SMTP:[log in to unmask]] > Sent: ג ינואר 01 2002 17:20 > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: [TN] DFM/CE AND ISO 9000/2000 > > Earl > > I can cite you one case from my personal knowledge. However, I shall not > mention names or places for reasons that will become apparent. > > It is the case of an SME in a village of 2,000 inhabitants, employing > about 25 persons, in the electronics assembly business, at the high-tech > end of the scale. Their turnover was about $3.5M. Their clientele was > essentially in the professional instrumentation business, but 90% of > their turnover was with 3 customers (admittedly quite dangerous, but > let's not go into that). About 10 or 12 years ago, one of their big > customers indicated a requirement that the company obtain ISO 9000 > certification, even though they never had any quality problems with what > was supplied. They prevaricated until this happened with the second one, > a few months later, and it became obvious that they were going to have > to do something. Again, there was no need to improve their quality. > Knowing little about it, the boss asked around and his customers > recommended a consultant, expert in ISO 9000 matters, whom he called in. > A plan was made and started off. The manual was written according to > their existing processes, but this implied the need to conduct things > like checking the temperature of the temperature indicators in their > reflow ovens against standard instruments, traceable to national > standards, which he had to buy - and they were not cheap. Before, he had > relied on the fact that the inbuilt Pt100 resistance thermometers were > not likely to go off calibration significantly and, even if one did, the > results would be immediately visible. So it can be said that the quality > of the products altered not a jot. Then he discovered that establishing > and filing the additional paperwork was occupying too much time of his > senior production personnel and the latter's lack of availability was > causing the quality to actually drop. So he engaged a specific QC > manager (not cheap) whose terms of reference were to do everything > necessary to ensure that all the requirements of his ISO 9002 > certificate were complied with, that the paperwork was kept correctly > and to ensure that the certifying authority's annual audit passed > smoothly. Up to this point, it had cost him an estimated $500,000 in > consultant's fees, pre-audit and audit fees, time required internally, a > year's salary for the QC manager, purchases, tracing calibration > instruments etc. As this was greater than the previous year's net > profit, it was no surprise that he started to make a loss, but the boss > decided that the following year would produce some benefit. He announced > to his customers that his selling prices would have to be increased by a > few cents per assembly, but this was just as the recession started and > he was told in no uncertain terms that, au contraire, he would have to > reduce his selling prices to continue working with them. He had no > choice but to comply, even though the orders were coming in slower and > smaller. He desperately sought further afield to obtain new business but > was told that he was too expensive and obtained little extra work. He > slimmed down the personnel but he dared not rid himself of the one > person who was costing him most: the QC manager. Down from 25 to 10 > persons, he finally had to start making arrangements with his creditors > and seeking external help. In a way, he was lucky, because he found a > buyer (one of his much larger competitors, one who was one notch > downmarket in quality) who offered to purchase 95% of his company at its > audited value, put in a few million to restart it again, but who would > do the management. His first action was to go round their clients and > explain to them that their insistence on ISO 9002 certification had > taken the company down to its knees and they would abandon it, but, > after ascertaining that the quality of the products supplied had not > improved in the three years since their demand to comply, he assured > them that they would continue to supply the same quality AND drop their > prices as a result. Since then, they pulled themselves up by their > bootlaces (without a QC manager) and, today, they are in a better > position than ever, without ISO 9000 certification, the original bossman > having repurchased the company back from his buyer, who was under the > illusion that the hi-tech market was going to pay back his investment > better. > > I agree that this has little to do with DFM/CE, but it illustrates that > there is a danger to the health of SMEs by being bullied into ISO 9000 > certification. What counts is the quality of the product, not a neat > certificate on the wall of the boss's office. IMHO, it is often > counter-productive for large companies to insist on it from their > suppliers. It stifles innovation and increases costs without necessarily > any concomitant improvement of quality. It is not even certain that he > would not have had some conjunctural difficulties without the ISO 9000 > story, but it certainly made a big contribution and is almost sure to > have tipped the balance into the red. > > The boss of this company is a fairly close friend and I visited his > brand new factory for the opening this year. This story is not unique: I > know another similar case in a different country where, although it was > not quite as dramatic, suffered along the same lines and only just > survived. However, the worst case I know of is a larger, privately-owned > multinational with an excellent reputation for quality products, with > 600 employees in 4 locations world-wide. Their profits diminished with > ISO 9001 certification in 1992 (granted, they went the whole hog by > applying everything bureaucratically down to the way they purchased > their toilet paper). They sold out a few months ago to a competitor, > with a hole in their accounts of some $15M. Again, I can't be sure that > there is total cause and effect, but their ISO 9001 certification > certainly did not help - and this was not an SME but was previously a > very profitable concern. > > Of course, there are companies that have profited from ISO 9000 > certification, but my advice is not to think twice before going ahead if > you are an SME: think a dozen times, at least. OTOH, DO implement DFM/CE > measures without hesitation: this is a much surer way of improving > quality and lowering overall costs. > > Best regards, > > Brian > > Earl Moon wrote: > > > > Brian and Edward, > > > > I really appreciate your points of view. This is exactly the kind of > > discussion for which I hoped as a primer for more technical type talks. > I am > > not taking a stance here or in my book - but to offer options to improve > > product quality within an organization dedicated to DFM/CE, based on a > > standard like ISO and the wisdom it offers some. There always will be > > different interpretations and opinions as to how a valuable tool, or > not, > > should be used, how well it will be used, and the extent of its use. > > > > While respecting your view points, I must say that in no way does ISO, > much > > as did MIL-STD-2000, tell an organization how something SHALL be done. > It > > simply says it SHALL be done. Therefore, an organization must say and do > > that which is DEMANDED, or not be registered. I does leave the > "creative" > > process up to the organization and those CLEARLY responsible for its > > success, from first registration through all continuous process > improvement > > phases. No where does any ISO requirement say, as an example, you SHALL > hang > > SPC paper over each wall in your organization. It does say, based on > NEED, > > say what you do and do what you say. > > > > My thesis in all this is simple. There always are better ways to do a > job. I > > believe it to be foolish if a good tool, or guideline, is supplied for > > process and product improvement, and it is not recognized as such and > put to > > good use. > > > > What I'm really looking for are some success or failure stories > concerning > > ISO 9000 as clear examples of what works or doesn't for whomever. > > Specifically, I'm looking for these stories as they pertain to section > 7.3 > > and its clearly stated requirements as the 20 or so shall statements. > Again, > > I'm not taking sides in a debate. I'm just trying to get the facts men, > > women, and any other interested beings. Brian and Ed, I'm sure you have > such > > stories - beyond classic, or not literature - though I happen to be a > > Shakespeare fan with a much more limited vocabulary. I think that's > apparent. > > > > Thanks again guys and, as always, appreciate your very valuable input to > the > > forum, > > > > Earl > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------- > > Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d > > To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text > in > > the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet > > To temporarily halt delivery of Technet send the following message: SET > Technet NOMAIL > > Search previous postings at: www.ipc.org > On-Line Resources & Databases > > E-mail Archives > > Please visit IPC web site (http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm) for > additional > > information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-509-9700 > ext.5315 > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------- > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------- > Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d > To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in > the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet > To temporarily halt delivery of Technet send the following message: SET > Technet NOMAIL > Search previous postings at: www.ipc.org > On-Line Resources & Databases > > E-mail Archives > Please visit IPC web site (http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm) for > additional > information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-509-9700 > ext.5315 > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt delivery of Technet send the following message: SET Technet NOMAIL Search previous postings at: www.ipc.org > On-Line Resources & Databases > E-mail Archives Please visit IPC web site (http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm) for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-509-9700 ext.5315 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------