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Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 10:19:48 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Test Chips
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Happy New Year to you all,
I am looking for test integrated circuits that have things like
stress-strain gauges, thermistors, RF striplines, that sort of thing, built
into the surface to measure dynamic properties of coatings applied over the
integrated circuits. I am NOT talking about dummy components, such as come
from TopLine, but research dies. I know that Sandia Labs used to offer
some. Anyone know of other sources?
Doug Pauls
Rockwell Collins
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Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 11:31:36 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
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From: "Golembiewski, Ray" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: CS-400E
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I am looking for another CS-400E and was wondering if anyone had
a good lead I can follow, or name to call to aquire this machine.
Thanks,
Ray Golembiewski C.I.D.
Manufacturing Test Engineer
Projects Unlimited, Inc.
(937) 918-2200
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Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 10:55:54 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Kathy Kuhlow <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: DFM/CE AND ...... **Long reply**
Mime-Version: 1.0
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--=_EFB2EDB3.6504695D
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Moonman,=20
Wow starting off the year with a lively topic, forever stirring aren't =
you! =20
I have been hiding behind the new ISO standard for product realization to =
get some programs I have always wanted to work or work better especially =
in regards to DFM. We put a lot more emphasize on contract review, =
preproduction planning, first build analysis, reports of internal and =
external issues, Senior Manager product reviews (actual get off your butt =
and go look at the product, mainly mine),and task assignment/tracking to =
get all of the issues resolved to some extent. We are a better organizatio=
n for it. We have learned more and first builds are actually anticipated =
but unfortunately there are many pitfalls. =20
I have seen a lot of DFM programs and unfortunately very few were =
successful. I used to do a lot of auditing and supplier management. It =
gave me the opportunity to get a glimpse of various companies across the =
US, Canada, and Mexico of almost every size. Common pitfalls that I have =
seen/lived through are:
Mentality of the Organization. What are your organizations beliefs. Do =
you work in an environment where the work is more of a in/out job shop, =
where no one really documents or defines the work requirements because Bob =
knows how to build it and we have never had a problem before so why worry? =
I was in a company in Indiana and we had a serious quality problem. I =
had a multi million dollar po on the line and a huge customer all of you =
would recognize. I was told by the US Sales Manager that well, they've =
never been sued before so there can't be a problem. I just about walked =
out but that is more of another story. The problem was process related =
and simple monitoring with a slight process change would take care of the =
whole deal. We knew it but they didn't. 6 Hours later they begrudged us =
and made the process change but there probably still isn't a true =
recognition to the root cause. =20
There lies another issue in DFM processes. Will effective change actually =
happen. What's the use of the checklists and all of the final reports =
without effective change occurring. This is probably the main issue when =
a DFM program is implemented and then falls to the wayside. The organizati=
on is all excited with the promise of improvement but then change doesn't =
occur or not fast enough and you lose your backing. More of a see nothing =
has changed attitude from different factions. Without a complete buy in =
from all in the organization all working towards a common goal no DFM will =
work. Another cringer is when upper Manager's want change but are =
unwilling to live the example of their expectations. =20
These are pitfalls no amount of procedures can help. It is a basic =
question of proof in the pudding, commitment, living a work environment =
were the Management leads by example without rules changing for political =
reasoning. =20
In our DFM program all of the activities are the Quality Department's =
responsibility. I was pretty upset when this was first thrown at me but I =
wasn't looking at the potential of change I could drive but the work into =
an already busy schedule. I wouldn't have it any other way now but I =
still have a few gripes about how it was handled and why. I have the =
opportunity to make positive changes and improvements. I also get to =
learn more about processes and product designs, learning is never a bad =
thing. =20
I don't know were I will be in the DFM program a few years from now but I =
am sure there will be some sort of program. I won't give up the thoughts =
of DFM and the potential it brings. Hopefully it won't become another ISO =
requirement said with a lot of distaste because your forced not because =
your willing. =20
Well, you started it...... sorry so long. =20
Kathy=20
=20
--=_EFB2EDB3.6504695D
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="TEXT.htm"
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1" http-equiv=Content-Type>
<META content="MSHTML 5.00.2919.6307" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY
style="FONT: 10pt Abadi MT Condensed Light; MARGIN-LEFT: 2px; MARGIN-TOP: 2px">
<DIV>Moonman, </DIV>
<DIV>Wow starting off the year with a lively topic, forever stirring aren't
you! </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I have been hiding behind the new ISO standard for product realization to
get some programs I have always wanted to work or work better especially in
regards to DFM. We put a lot more emphasize on contract review,
preproduction planning, first build analysis, reports of internal and external
issues, Senior Manager product reviews (actual get off your butt and go look at
the product, mainly mine),and task assignment/tracking to get all of the issues
resolved to some extent. We are a better organization for it. We
have learned more and first builds are actually anticipated but unfortunately
there are many pitfalls. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I have seen a lot of DFM programs and unfortunately very few were
successful. I used to do a lot of auditing and supplier management.
It gave me the opportunity to get a glimpse of various companies across the US,
Canada, and Mexico of almost every size. Common pitfalls that I have
seen/lived through are:</DIV>
<DIV>Mentality of the Organization. What are your organizations
beliefs. Do you work in an environment where the work is more of a in/out
job shop, where no one really documents or defines the work requirements because
Bob knows how to build it and we have never had a problem before so why
worry? I was in a company in Indiana and we had a serious quality
problem. I had a multi million dollar po on the line and a huge customer
all of you would recognize. I was told by the US Sales Manager that
well, they've never been sued before so there can't be a problem. I just
about walked out but that is more of another story. The problem was
process related and simple monitoring with a slight process change would take
care of the whole deal. We knew it but they didn't. 6 Hours later
they begrudged us and made the process change but there probably still isn't a
true recognition to the root cause. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>There lies another issue in DFM processes. Will effective change
actually happen. What's the use of the checklists and all of the final
reports without effective change occurring. This is probably the main
issue when a DFM program is implemented and then falls to the wayside. The
organization is all excited with the promise of improvement but then change
doesn't occur or not fast enough and you lose your backing. More of a see
nothing has changed attitude from different factions. Without a complete
buy in from all in the organization all working towards a common goal no DFM
will work. Another cringer is when upper Manager's want change but
are unwilling to live the example of their expectations. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>These are pitfalls no amount of procedures can help. It is a basic
question of proof in the pudding, commitment, living a work environment were the
Management leads by example without rules changing for political
reasoning. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>In our DFM program all of the activities are the Quality Department's
responsibility. I was pretty upset when this was first thrown at me but I
wasn't looking at the potential of change I could drive but the work into an
already busy schedule. I wouldn't have it any other way now but I still
have a few gripes about how it was handled and why. I have the opportunity
to make positive changes and improvements. I also get to learn more about
processes and product designs, learning is never a bad thing. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I don't know were I will be in the DFM program a few years from now but I
am sure there will be some sort of program. I won't give up the thoughts
of DFM and the potential it brings. Hopefully it won't become another ISO
requirement said with a lot of distaste because your forced not because your
willing. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Well, you started it...... sorry so long. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Kathy </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>
--=_EFB2EDB3.6504695D--
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Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 19:20:07 +0200
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Brian Ellis <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Ultrasonic Cleaning
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Vinit
I think it should also be mentioned that, if U/S weakens a bond, a fault
may not occur until several months later: it may be a time bomb :-(
Brian
Vinit Verma wrote:
>
> Hi Technetters,
>
> I am presently evaluating post reflow PCB cleaning machines, both aqueous
> and ultrasonic. I have a concern regarding ultrasonic cleaning. Read
> somewhere that the ultrasonic frequencies can have an effect on the wire
> bonds inside the packaging. Does anyone have any idea of this?
>
> Thanks in anticipation.
>
> Regards
> Vinit Verma
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d
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> the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet
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> Please visit IPC web site (http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm) for additional
> information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-509-9700 ext.5315
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 11:23:57 -0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Mel Parrish <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Ultrasonic Cleaning
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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RE: [TN] Ultrasonic CleaningSteven
The specific component types that were concerns for this cleaning method per
the DoD studies were TO package IC's (not used much these days). Later
testing by the EMPF looked at encapsulated components with better results,
should still be available for review but I don't believe that the DoD
studies are.
Mel Parrish
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Creswick, Steven
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 8:17 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Ultrasonic Cleaning
From a hybrid manufacturing standpoint we found that if the wirebonds are
surrounded by the ultrasonic cleaning fluid there is no problem.
However, if there is a cavity - there will be a problem.
Put another way - ultrasonic cleaning of sealed units (nothing but dry
nitrogen around the wires) was an open invitation for non-functional units.
Cleaning of un-sealed units was not a problem.
Most plastic encapsulated devices have no (intentional) air pockets around
the wires, therefore, I would expect them to be okay. If you have sealed
metal can type packages I would stay away from the ultrasonics.
Steven Creswick - Gentex Corporation
-----Original Message-----
From: Dieselberg, Ron [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 10:26 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Ultrasonic Cleaning
I had only one experience, about 15 years ago. The assembly tested OK
before cleaning in an ultrasonic tank. Afterwards it did not work. Failure
analysis folks said almost all of the wire bonds in the three transistors
were damaged.. Maybe someone has had good luck, but not me. That was the
first and last on anything but a component-less board!
Ron Dieselberg
Trainer/Auditor
CMC ELECTRONICS
CINCINNATI
[log in to unmask]
-----Original Message-----
From: Vinit Verma [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2001 5:48 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Ultrasonic Cleaning
Hi Technetters,
I am presently evaluating post reflow PCB cleaning machines, both
aqueous
and ultrasonic. I have a concern regarding ultrasonic cleaning. Read
somewhere that the ultrasonic frequencies can have an effect on the
wire
bonds inside the packaging. Does anyone have any idea of this?
Thanks in anticipation.
Regards
Vinit Verma
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>RE: [TN] Ultrasonic Cleaning</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D613531219-02012002><FONT face=3DTahoma =
color=3D#000080=20
size=3D2>Steven</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D613531219-02012002><FONT face=3DTahoma =
color=3D#000080 size=3D2>The=20
specific component types that were concerns for this cleaning method per =
the DoD=20
studies were TO package IC's (n</FONT></SPAN><SPAN=20
class=3D613531219-02012002><FONT face=3DTahoma color=3D#000080 =
size=3D2>ot used much=20
these days). Later testing by the EMPF looked at encapsulated components =
with=20
better results, should still be available for review but I don't believe =
that=20
the DoD studies are. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D613531219-02012002><FONT face=3DTahoma =
color=3D#000080=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D613531219-02012002><FONT face=3DTahoma =
color=3D#000080 size=3D2>Mel=20
Parrish</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> TechNet=20
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Creswick, =
Steven<BR><B>Sent:</B>=20
Wednesday, January 02, 2002 8:17 AM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
[log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [TN] Ultrasonic=20
Cleaning<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D856141316-02012002>From=20
a hybrid manufacturing standpoint we found that if the wirebonds are=20
surrounded by the ultrasonic cleaning fluid there is no=20
problem.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D856141316-02012002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D856141316-02012002>However, if there is a cavity - there will =
be a=20
problem.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D856141316-02012002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D856141316-02012002>Put=20
another way - ultrasonic cleaning of sealed units (nothing but dry =
nitrogen=20
around the wires) was an open invitation for non-functional =
units. =20
Cleaning of un-sealed units was not a problem.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D856141316-02012002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D856141316-02012002>Most=20
plastic encapsulated devices have no (intentional) air pockets around=20
the wires, therefore, I would expect them to be okay. If =
you have=20
sealed metal can type packages I would stay away from the=20
ultrasonics.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D856141316-02012002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D856141316-02012002>Steven Creswick - Gentex=20
Corporation</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Dieselberg, Ron=20
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, January =
02,=20
2002 10:26 AM<BR><B>To:</B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: =
[TN]=20
Ultrasonic Cleaning<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I had only one experience, about 15 =
years ago.=20
The assembly tested OK before cleaning in an ultrasonic tank. =
Afterwards it=20
did not work. Failure analysis folks said almost all of the wire =
bonds in=20
the three transistors were damaged.. Maybe someone has had good =
luck, but=20
not me. That was the first and last on anything but a component-less =
board!</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Ron Dieselberg</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Trainer/Auditor</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>CMC ELECTRONICS</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>CINCINNATI</FONT> <BR><FONT =
face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D2>[log in to unmask]</FONT> </P>
<UL>
<UL>
<P><A name=3D_MailData><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>-----Original =
Message-----</FONT></A> <BR><B><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>From: =20
Vinit Verma [<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]
TRONICS.COM</A>]</FONT></B>=20
<BR><B><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sent: </FONT></B> =
<FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>Thursday, December 27, 2001 5:48 AM</FONT> =
<BR><B><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>To: </FONT></B>=20
<FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>[log in to unmask]</FONT> <BR><B><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
=
size=3D2>Subject: </FONT></B>=20
<FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>[TN] Ultrasonic Cleaning</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi Technetters,</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I am presently evaluating post =
reflow PCB=20
cleaning machines, both aqueous</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>and=20
ultrasonic. I have a concern regarding ultrasonic cleaning. =
Read</FONT>=20
<BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>somewhere that the ultrasonic =
frequencies=20
can have an effect on the wire</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>bonds=20
inside the packaging. Does anyone have any idea of this?</FONT> =
</P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks in anticipation.</FONT> =
</P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Regards</FONT> <BR><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>Vinit Verma</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial=20
=
size=3D2>----------------------------------------------------------------=
-----------------</FONT>=20
<BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Technet Mail List provided as a =
free service=20
by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>To=20
unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following =
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SIGNOFF Technet</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>To =
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delivery of Technet send the following message: SET Technet=20
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Archives</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Please visit IPC =
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(<A href=3D"http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm"=20
target=3D_blank>http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm</A>) for=20
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Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 11:19:04 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: DFM/CE AND ...... **Long reply**
X-To: Kathy Kuhlow <[log in to unmask]>
Kathy,
Long for sure but matched by very good input. I agree with all you say and
what you've seen. Often makes you wonder how some folks ever get into
business let alone becoming successful - especially when it's not that
difficult to do it right in light of your story and so many others.
I wias talking earlier with an off line gentleman with whom I've often
talked. He geve some good insight as well. My reply talks to some of his and
your issues with the whole thing:
Thanks for the always good input. It is a tough job convincing anyone change
is needed even when it means improvement will be assured.
I've been doing this and other semi-tough stuff for a lot of years. Often I
ask why. Always I answer my questions with it needs doing. Also, I just
can't stand poor quality.
Cultural change, as you say, is the key. It's the hardes part of the
equation as well. Though not a particular Goldrait fan, his final chapter in
"The Goal" pretty much summed it all up in terms of the problems of change
and how to overcome them.
Hell, I love the engineering game a lot. I guess I love being a crusader
even more.
Thanks again xxxx and keep up the good work,
Earl
Kathy, I know you love this business. It shows in all you've done in the
past. I look forward hearing more about your trip down the DFM path. I'm
sure with your help, it will be a well traveled, smooth journey.
Earl
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Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 12:52:02 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Creswick, Steven" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Ultrasonic Cleaning
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