Appreciate the comments Steve, as always. Two by fours can be a very effective tools. My problem is I can't wield the things as in the past and some of my latest targets seem faster now as they also seem more capable of dodging not only wood but bullets. As a CEM, you do have some input to the DFM process, as you say. Problem is the same as how to you REACH some of those who simply either ignore very simple rules, or refuse to follow what has so laboriously, by many members of the IPC as an example, been PROVEN to work. Some large CEM's do fairly good work with DFM though often without CE. Of course when the economy was a bit better, they had more resources as well. It still gets back to top management and their commitment to making a good plan work, if they knew what one was, and how. Most of the people doing the REAL work know what is needed, as evidenced by replies on and off this forum. They, most often, are powerless to do a damn thing about it. CPI, CPI, gung ho, gung ho, Earl --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt delivery of Technet send the following message: SET Technet NOMAIL Search previous postings at: www.ipc.org > On-Line Resources & Databases > E-mail Archives Please visit IPC web site (http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm) for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-509-9700 ext.5315 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------