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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 18:50:05 +0530
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Prasad An <[log in to unmask]>
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Hi all
I have subscribed to TechNet.
A.N.Prasad
Process Engineer
Flextronics Technologies (I) Ltd.,
Bangalore, India
email:[log in to unmask]
* Flextronics Internal Use *
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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 08:55:25 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Guy Ramsey <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Final Audit/Inspection
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Section 5 of IPC-A-610C
Inspection usually starts with a general overall view of the electrnic
assembly, then follows each componet/wire to its connectin, concentrating on
the lead into the connection, the connection and the tail end of the
lead/wire leaving the connection. The wire/eald protrusion step for all
lands should be saved for last so that the board can be flipped over and all
connection checked together. (Obviously addressing a through hole or mixed
technology board.)
The J-STD-001 encourages sampling but does not directly give guidance.
IPC-9191 which superseeded IPC-PC-90 might help with implementation.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Olivia Mc Dermott
> Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 6:11 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] Final Audit/Inspection
>
>
> Good Morning and Happy New Year.
> This is my 1st message to technet.
>
> Can you suggest a methodology/systematic approach to final inspection of
> populated PCBs? Do you check firstly for component orientations,
> placements
> or acceptability of the soldered joints? Is the drawings mapped out as to
> where to start the inspection (topside, bottomside, left/right hand side)
> Should there be 100% inspection or inspection to some type of sampling
> procedure? Does IPC have a recommended standard for this and where could I
> find the information? I would be interested to know what you use.
>
> Thanks in advance for any replies.
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 08:05:23 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Kathy Kuhlow <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: PURE DFM/CE
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excellant, very well put
Kathy=20
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<DIV>excellant, very well put</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 09:17:28 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
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From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: PURE DFM/CE
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Steve,
I have a little more consideration for thought or more fuel for the fire =
using your aforementioned two by fours. Could you post the two attached =
.jpgs?
Thanks,
Earl
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Stephen R. Gregory=20
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 10:30 PM
Subject: Re: [TN] PURE DFM/CE
Earl my man,
You are more than hitting the "nail-on-the-head", but more likely a =
"two-by-four" between the eyes from your last response...I love it.
As you may have surmised from my communications in the past, I work at =
a CEM, Contract Manufacturer, Electronic Manufacturing Service =
Provider...etc., etc...
Most of the time we get things build-to-print here, have not been in =
the development link in the design or manufacturabilty of the product, =
we just get things as they are...
Much of the stuff is military, and changing anything is almost as bad =
as treason. In other words, changes just don't happen...the paperwork =
trail, and the signatures that have to take place for a gerber to be =
altered to make things easier (Like fiducials to be incorporated on a =
board that has SMT) are almost impossible from my experience.
So, we don't have much input as far as DFM...occasionally we do, and =
I'm ecstatic beyond belief, when that happens. We try and feed-back to =
our customers the things that we see when learn of them (after receipt =
of gerber files, etc..) of things that may be a problem...the biggest =
thing that I see, and I don't know if I'm the only one, is that there =
have been no fiducials incorporated into a design even when SMT =
components are in the design. THAT'S 'FRIGGEN BASIC DESIGN RULES!!!! I =
know I'm venting now, but PLEASE, PLEASE you designers out there, if you =
have SMT components on the assembly that you're laying out, put some =
'friggen fiducials on the board! That means both sides!
I see this on more boards than I should, from so-called established =
OEM's, that's why I'm so vocal...to put it bluntly, they should know =
better...it's basic fundamental SMT design basics...you use SMT, you =
have fiducials, end of story....BTW, the stuff I have to deal with that =
doesn't have fiducials has 20-mil pitch and sometimes 0402's...
Thanks for letting me get this off my chest...
-Steve Gregory-
Dan,
Good input and appreciated. The following is paraphrased from =
Goldrait's
book "The Goal." I used it in a Lean Manufacturing consulting gig a =
while
back. It seems fitting for consideration, no matter the industry or
operations within, considering your comments and those
of others both on and off line.
FIRST RESISTANCE LEVEL
The first resistance level finds people declaring they have no =
control over
some processes. Examples are supplier, customer, and worker =
deficiencies and
inadequacies. Suppliers may not provide what is needed when it is =
needed.
Customer contract requirements are subject to change sometimes =
severely
impacting production capabilities and schedules. Workers often are =
not
adequately trained, empowered, made responsible and, therefore,
are not accountable for their actions.
As a team, we have the ability to ensure these control deficiencies =
are
eliminated by TAKING CONTROL to ensure processes are managed instead =
of results.
SECOND RESISTANCE LEVEL
Without overcoming the first resistance level, It is impossible to =
overcome
the second.
The second resistance level finds observations as the proposed =
solution
cannot possibly work and allow the primary objective (satisfy =
customer
contract requirements) to be reached. This level's resistance must =
be
overcome to reach the next level.
Having evidence a proven solution works is what it takes to overcome =
this
resistance. In our case, JIT, Lean, Pull, Kaizen, Kanban, and all =
the rest,
one a part of another, have been proven without argument. The only =
issues
remaining here are creating training tools and using them throughout =
the
organization.
THIRD RESISTANCE LEVEL
Having all the answers as objective evidence concerning a system's =
worth is
fine. However, some might argue the system cannot provide =
improvement within
a certain organization and will provide negative effects.
Here it is important to ensure the solution/system is a fit for the
organization expected to embrace, accept and implement it. In our =
case,
clear decisions about exactly which system is best for our =
production
capabilities must be made and agreed to by everyone involved. This =
now
becomes an issue of whether a continuous flow, automated system, or =
cell
manufacturing system is best. Because of our nearly certain =
assuredness
about customer requirements, and attendant product demand, a cell =
system is
best as well as all attendant production and quality requirements.
FOURTH RESISTANCE LEVEL
When resistance is forthcoming about obstacles preventing =
implementation,
there may be validity in almost every organization. One valid point =
may be a
lack of resources as people, tools, equipment, facilities, money, =
and all
the rest.
Resistance, as obstacles, is overcome by either attaining adequate =
resources
or modifying a current system to become capable. One reason for =
going
cellular is that our company's current tool and equipment resources =
are
adequate if utilized properly within a cellular environment. This =
overcomes
another obstacle as cash. Little additional money is required for us =
to
operate this way. As for human resources, better training is the =
answer to
ensure everyone in every cell is cross trained to do every job =
required to
satisfy the primary objective.
FIFTH RESISTANCE LEVEL
This resistance level is most human. It finds people doubting each =
other's
ability or at least their ability to work well with one another. =
Worse yet,
complacent people are found not caring about any type change, let =
alone that
positive.
This is what the team concept is all about. Management provides =
everyone in
the organization with all the tools, and directions for their use, =
to get
the job done in a collaborative manner. It's not good enough to =
shout out
the order of the day and expect complete obedience or else. Clearly =
defined
goals and milestones, leading to the primary objective, first are =
provided.
Then, direction is provided to reach them unidirectionally moving =
forward.
Earl Moon=20
------=_NextPart_001_002A_01C19437.76DD20C0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4912.300" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Steve,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have a little more consideration for =
thought or=20
more fuel for the fire using your aforementioned two by fours. Could you =
post=20
the two attached .jpgs?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Earl</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A [log in to unmask] href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">Stephen =
R.=20
Gregory</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A [log in to unmask]
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, January 02, =
2002 10:30=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [TN] PURE =
DFM/CE</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2>Earl my =
man,<BR><BR>You=20
are more than hitting the "nail-on-the-head", but more likely a =
"two-by-four"=20
between the eyes from your last response...I love it.<BR><BR>As you =
may have=20
surmised from my communications in the past, I work at a CEM, Contract =
Manufacturer, Electronic Manufacturing Service Provider...etc.,=20
etc...<BR><BR>Most of the time we get things build-to-print here, have =
not=20
been in the development link in the design or manufacturabilty of the =
product,=20
we just get things as they are...<BR><BR>Much of the stuff is =
military, and=20
changing anything is almost as bad as treason. In other words, changes =
just=20
don't happen...the paperwork trail, and the signatures that have to =
take place=20
for a gerber to be altered to make things easier (Like fiducials to be =
incorporated on a board that has SMT) are almost impossible from my=20
experience.<BR><BR>So, we don't have much input as far as =
DFM...occasionally=20
we do, and I'm ecstatic beyond belief, when that happens. We try and =
feed-back=20
to our customers the things that we see when learn of them (after =
receipt of=20
gerber files, etc..) of things that may be a problem...the biggest =
thing that=20
I see, and I don't know if I'm the only one, is that there have been =
no=20
fiducials incorporated into a design even when SMT components are in =
the=20
design. THAT'S 'FRIGGEN BASIC DESIGN RULES!!!! I know I'm venting now, =
but=20
PLEASE, PLEASE you designers out there, if you have SMT components on =
the=20
assembly that you're laying out, put some 'friggen fiducials on the =
board!=20
That means both sides!<BR><BR>I see this on more boards than I should, =
from=20
so-called established OEM's, that's why I'm so vocal...to put it =
bluntly, they=20
should know better...it's basic fundamental SMT design basics...you =
use SMT,=20
you have fiducials, end of story....BTW, the stuff I have to deal with =
that=20
doesn't have fiducials has 20-mil pitch and sometimes =
0402's...<BR><BR>Thanks=20
for letting me get this off my chest...<BR><BR>-Steve =
Gregory-<BR><BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"=20
TYPE=3D"CITE">Dan,<BR><BR>Good input and appreciated. The following is =
paraphrased from Goldrait's<BR>book "The Goal." I used it in a Lean=20
Manufacturing consulting gig a while<BR>back. It seems fitting for=20
consideration, no matter the industry or<BR>operations within, =
considering=20
your comments and those<BR>of others both on and off =
line.<BR><BR>FIRST=20
RESISTANCE LEVEL<BR><BR>The first resistance level finds people =
declaring=20
they have no control over<BR>some processes. Examples are supplier,=20
customer, and worker deficiencies and<BR>inadequacies. Suppliers may =
not=20
provide what is needed when it is needed.<BR>Customer contract =
requirements=20
are subject to change sometimes severely<BR>impacting production=20
capabilities and schedules. Workers often are not<BR>adequately =
trained,=20
empowered, made responsible and, therefore,<BR>are not accountable =
for their=20
actions.<BR><BR>As a team, we have the ability to ensure these =
control=20
deficiencies are<BR>eliminated by TAKING CONTROL to ensure processes =
are=20
managed instead of results.<BR><BR>SECOND RESISTANCE =
LEVEL<BR><BR>Without=20
overcoming the first resistance level, It is impossible to =
overcome<BR>the=20
second.<BR><BR>The second resistance level finds observations as the =
proposed solution<BR>cannot possibly work and allow the primary =
objective=20
(satisfy customer<BR>contract requirements) to be reached. This =
level's=20
resistance must be<BR>overcome to reach the next =
level.<BR><BR>Having=20
evidence a proven solution works is what it takes to overcome=20
this<BR>resistance. In our case, JIT, Lean, Pull, Kaizen, Kanban, =
and all=20
the rest,<BR>one a part of another, have been proven without =
argument. The=20
only issues<BR>remaining here are creating training tools and using =
them=20
throughout the<BR>organization.<BR><BR>THIRD RESISTANCE =
LEVEL<BR><BR>Having=20
all the answers as objective evidence concerning a system's worth=20
is<BR>fine. However, some might argue the system cannot provide =
improvement=20
within<BR>a certain organization and will provide negative=20
effects.<BR><BR>Here it is important to ensure the solution/system =
is a fit=20
for the<BR>organization expected to embrace, accept and implement =
it. In our=20
case,<BR>clear decisions about exactly which system is best for our=20
production<BR>capabilities must be made and agreed to by everyone =
involved.=20
This now<BR>becomes an issue of whether a continuous flow, automated =
system,=20
or cell<BR>manufacturing system is best. Because of our nearly =
certain=20
assuredness<BR>about customer requirements, and attendant product =
demand, a=20
cell system is<BR>best as well as all attendant production and =
quality=20
requirements.<BR><BR>FOURTH RESISTANCE LEVEL<BR><BR>When resistance =
is=20
forthcoming about obstacles preventing implementation,<BR>there may =
be=20
validity in almost every organization. One valid point may be =
a<BR>lack of=20
resources as people, tools, equipment, facilities, money, and =
all<BR>the=20
rest.<BR><BR>Resistance, as obstacles, is overcome by either =
attaining=20
adequate resources<BR>or modifying a current system to become =
capable. One=20
reason for going<BR>cellular is that our company's current tool and=20
equipment resources are<BR>adequate if utilized properly within a =
cellular=20
environment. This overcomes<BR>another obstacle as cash. Little =
additional=20
money is required for us to<BR>operate this way. As for human =
resources,=20
better training is the answer to<BR>ensure everyone in every cell is =
cross=20
trained to do every job required to<BR>satisfy the primary=20
objective.<BR><BR>FIFTH RESISTANCE LEVEL<BR><BR>This resistance =
level is=20
most human. It finds people doubting each other's<BR>ability or at =
least=20
their ability to work well with one another. Worse =
yet,<BR>complacent people=20
are found not caring about any type change, let alone=20
that<BR>positive.<BR><BR>This is what the team concept is all about. =
Management provides everyone in<BR>the organization with all the =
tools, and=20
directions for their use, to get<BR>the job done in a collaborative =
manner.=20
It's not good enough to shout out<BR>the order of the day and expect =
complete obedience or else. Clearly defined<BR>goals and milestones, =
leading=20
to the primary objective, first are provided.<BR>Then, direction is =
provided=20
to reach them unidirectionally moving forward.<BR><BR><BR>Earl =
Moon</FONT>=20
</BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_001_002A_01C19437.76DD20C0--
------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C19437.76DD20C0--
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---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 08:36:53 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: BEFORE ISO
Just for some serious giggles, I offer information about a world before ISO.
I've kept a copy of MIL-Q-9858A almost from its creation and implementation
at the shown revision level (AAAAAAAA) in 1965. It worked so well for so
many it never needed revising. How about that? I asled Steve Gregory to
kindly post a .jpg image of page one on his great site.
If you even thought of doing business with the US Goverment, and its various
agencies and sub contractors, you had to meet the shall requirements in all
11 pages (11 pages - how hard could that have been?).
The qualification process involved using a little audit procedure/handbook,
with a few clearly defined check-lists. This was MIL-HDBK-50A. I lost my
copy of the little devil so our good friend Steve Sauer scanned and sent me
the entire document. It was a little longer at 55 pages. If you got past the
audit process, administered by folks like Steve S. you were approved to SEEK
business with government contractors. The hook was, each contractor you
sought business from had its set of rules and the qualification process
became that much harder though that little handbook was always in the hands
of the auditor. Your customers, as an example, often had procurement folks
relishing the chance to put you out of business when you accepted and failed
at an attempt at a conract. Exciting times, eh?
I also asked Steve Gregory to place two .jpg images on his site. They
represent some very simple questions concerning a suppliers ability, or not,
to provide acceptable product meeting customer/government specified contract
requirements. Don't forget the statement of work (SOW) suppliers had to
provide showing exactly how success was to be accomplished.
I just wanted to bring this up because, first, it's fun to look back on an
exciting time when creativity was not stifled by rules but imense progress
was made such as a lunar landing or two without benefit of today's
"modern/advanced" technology and freedom to just do it without always
thinking about how to do it right the first time.
Anyway, I hope all those, and others, might find reading these few pages on
Steve's site. I sure hope this makes us all think how these MIL documents
evolved almost word for word and requirement int ISO 9000 and how much
easier it is to succed in this times when a GOOD quality system is in place
and functioning well.
I would only add, in such declining and near dire economic times for many,
folks are starting to look to the government for their incomes. Steve
Gregory has attested to that most recently. It certainly has made me look
more seriously about my future and how to participate in the emerging
military market place. It might behove (is that a word?) some others to do
the same. It's fun, profitable, and you get to make things that go boom.
Earl Moon
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=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 09:50:58 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "PERALTA, Kevin (BREA)" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Final Audit/Inspection
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Happy New Year to all Technetters!
Olivia,
The Student Handbook for IPC-A-610(C) has a whole section on Inspection
Methodology. These are suggested steps. It's up to your quality system to
determine sampling. Hope this helps!
Kevin L. Peralta
Senior Quality Systems Analyst
TRW Aeronautical / Lucas Aerospace
-----Original Message-----
From: Olivia Mc Dermott [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 3:11 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Final Audit/Inspection
Good Morning and Happy New Year.
This is my 1st message to technet.
Can you suggest a methodology/systematic approach to final inspection of
populated PCBs? Do you check firstly for component orientations, placements
or acceptability of the soldered joints? Is the drawings mapped out as to
where to start the inspection (topside, bottomside, left/right hand side)
Should there be 100% inspection or inspection to some type of sampling
procedure? Does IPC have a recommended standard for this and where could I
find the information? I would be interested to know what you use.
Thanks in advance for any replies.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
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<TITLE>RE: [TN] Final Audit/Inspection</TITLE>
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<BODY>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Happy New Year to all Technetters!</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Olivia,</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>The Student Handbook for IPC-A-610(C) has a whole =
section on Inspection Methodology. These are suggested steps. It's up =
to your quality system to determine sampling. Hope this =
helps!</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Kevin L. Peralta</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Senior Quality Systems Analyst</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>TRW Aeronautical / Lucas Aerospace </FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Olivia Mc Dermott [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:oliviamcdermott01@H=
OTMAIL.COM</A>]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 3:11 AM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: [log in to unmask]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: [TN] Final Audit/Inspection</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Good Morning and Happy New Year.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>This is my 1st message to technet.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Can you suggest a methodology/systematic approach to =
final inspection of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>populated PCBs? Do you check firstly for component =
orientations, placements</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>or acceptability of the soldered joints? Is the =
drawings mapped out as to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>where to start the inspection (topside, bottomside, =
left/right hand side)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Should there be 100% inspection or inspection to =
some type of sampling</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>procedure? Does IPC have a recommended standard for =
this and where could I</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>find the information? I would be interested to know =
what you use.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Thanks in advance for any replies.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>_______________________________________________________________=
__</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at <A =
HREF=3D"http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp</A>.</FONT>
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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 08:49:32 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Kathy Kuhlow <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Final Audit/Inspection
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I would first start with some in-process sampling so you can pinpoint what =
types of defects the process is currently producing. Do you see more =
missing components from surface mount or do you have a problem withe =
solder shorts on the solder side because of wave issues or snapping =
problems. All to many organizations use a final inspection as a safety =
net. In my dream world I would have no one doing final inspection but =
bring it back to the process and do the inspection at the process through =
auditing by both production and quality personnel so immediate feedback =
can be accomplished. Otherwise you get data that is out of date and you =
can't really take effective corrective actions, especially if your world =
is as a CM or small run lots. =20
If you must do a final inspection then we typically start with a complete =
part verification (value, polarity, AVL check) than solder (quality, =
quantity, lead placement) and finally any specific customer instructions(la=
beling, rev add, etc). =20
Kathy=20
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<BODY
style="FONT: 10pt Abadi MT Condensed Light; MARGIN-LEFT: 2px; MARGIN-TOP: 2px">
<DIV>I would first start with some in-process sampling so you can pinpoint what
types of defects the process is currently producing. Do you see more
missing components from surface mount or do you have a problem withe solder
shorts on the solder side because of wave issues or snapping
problems. All to many organizations use a final inspection as a
safety net. In my dream world I would have no one doing final inspection
but bring it back to the process and do the inspection at the process through
auditing by both production and quality personnel so immediate feedback can be
accomplished. Otherwise you get data that is out of date and you can't
really take effective corrective actions, especially if your world is as a CM or
small run lots. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If you must do a final inspection then we typically start with a complete
part verification (value, polarity, AVL check) than solder (quality, quantity,
lead placement) and finally any specific customer instructions(labeling, rev
add, etc). </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Kathy </DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 14:55:47 +0000
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Olivia Mc Dermott <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Final Audit/Inspection
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Kevin,
How could I obtain a copy of the student handbook?
>From: "PERALTA, Kevin (BREA)" <[log in to unmask]>
>Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: [TN] Final Audit/Inspection
>Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 09:50:58 -0500
>
>Happy New Year to all Technetters!
>
>Olivia,
>
>The Student Handbook for IPC-A-610(C) has a whole section on Inspection
>Methodology. These are suggested steps. It's up to your quality system to
>determine sampling. Hope this helps!
>
>Kevin L. Peralta
>Senior Quality Systems Analyst
>TRW Aeronautical / Lucas Aerospace
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Olivia Mc Dermott [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 3:11 AM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: [TN] Final Audit/Inspection
>
>
>Good Morning and Happy New Year.
>This is my 1st message to technet.
>
>Can you suggest a methodology/systematic approach to final inspection of
>populated PCBs? Do you check firstly for component orientations, placements
>or acceptability of the soldered joints? Is the drawings mapped out as to
>where to start the inspection (topside, bottomside, left/right hand side)
>Should there be 100% inspection or inspection to some type of sampling
>procedure? Does IPC have a recommended standard for this and where could I
>find the information? I would be interested to know what you use.
>
>Thanks in advance for any replies.
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
>
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>E-mail Archives
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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 15:01:25 +0000
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Olivia Mc Dermott <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Final Audit/Inspection
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
We do have inspection points throughout the process. The problem is they are
also missing defects and letting them through to final inspection.I wondered
if there is a direct instruction on inspecting.
1. you do this
2. you do this.
>From: Kathy Kuhlow <[log in to unmask]>
>Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: [TN] Final Audit/Inspection
>Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 08:49:32 -0600
>
>I would first start with some in-process sampling so you can pinpoint what
>types of defects the process is currently producing. Do you see more
>missing components from surface mount or do you have a problem withe solder
>shorts on the solder side because of wave issues or snapping problems.
>All to many organizations use a final inspection as a safety net. In my
>dream world I would have no one doing final inspection but bring it back to
>the process and do the inspection at the process through auditing by both
>production and quality personnel so immediate feedback can be accomplished.
> Otherwise you get data that is out of date and you can't really take
>effective corrective actions, especially if your world is as a CM or small
>run lots.
>
>If you must do a final inspection then we typically start with a complete
>part verification (value, polarity, AVL check) than solder (quality,
>quantity, lead placement) and finally any specific customer
>instructions(labeling, rev add, etc).
>
>Kathy
><< TEXT.htm >>
_________________________________________________________________
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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 09:53:36 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Zaepfel, Barbara L" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: BEFORE ISO
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Could you send the path to Steve Gregorys' site, again.
Thanks
-----Original Message-----
From: Earl Moon [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 9:37 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] BEFORE ISO
Just for some serious giggles, I offer information about a world before ISO.
I've kept a copy of MIL-Q-9858A almost from its creation and implementation
at the shown revision level (AAAAAAAA) in 1965. It worked so well for so
many it never needed revising. How about that? I asled Steve Gregory to
kindly post a .jpg image of page one on his great site.
If you even thought of doing business with the US Goverment, and its various
agencies and sub contractors, you had to meet the shall requirements in all
11 pages (11 pages - how hard could that have been?).
The qualification process involved using a little audit procedure/handbook,
with a few clearly defined check-lists. This was MIL-HDBK-50A. I lost my
copy of the little devil so our good friend Steve Sauer scanned and sent me
the entire document. It was a little longer at 55 pages. If you got past the
audit process, administered by folks like Steve S. you were approved to SEEK
business with government contractors. The hook was, each contractor you
sought business from had its set of rules and the qualification process
became that much harder though that little handbook was always in the hands
of the auditor. Your customers, as an example, often had procurement folks
relishing the chance to put you out of business when you accepted and failed
at an attempt at a conract. Exciting times, eh?
I also asked Steve Gregory to place two .jpg images on his site. They
represent some very simple questions concerning a suppliers ability, or not,
to provide acceptable product meeting customer/government specified contract
requirements. Don't forget the statement of work (SOW) suppliers had to
provide showing exactly how success was to be accomplished.
I just wanted to bring this up because, first, it's fun to look back on an
exciting time when creativity was not stifled by rules but imense progress
was made such as a lunar landing or two without benefit of today's
"modern/advanced" technology and freedom to just do it without always
thinking about how to do it right the first time.
Anyway, I hope all those, and others, might find reading these few pages on
Steve's site. I sure hope this makes us all think how these MIL documents
evolved almost word for word and requirement int ISO 9000 and how much
easier it is to succed in this times when a GOOD quality system is in place
and functioning well.
I would only add, in such declining and near dire economic times for many,
folks are starting to look to the government for their incomes. Steve
Gregory has attested to that most recently. It certainly has made me look
more seriously about my future and how to participate in the emerging
military market place. It might behove (is that a word?) some others to do
the same. It's fun, profitable, and you get to make things that go boom.
Earl Moon
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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 16:21:31 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "d. terstegge" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Final Audit/Inspection
MIME-Version: 1.0 (Generated by NET-TEL Mailguard SMTP version 4.0.0.22)
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Hi Olivia,
You should be very happy if your inspection people catch more than 50% of =
the defects. The remainder will simply be overlooked. This is not an =
opinion, but it's a proven fact !!
It is just not possible to inspect quality into the product, instead you =
should focus on the assembly process.
B.T.W. on my website I have some nice software available (it's a free beta =
version) that may be helpfull for you with the inspection of the pcb's =
after pick&place machine. The URL is http://www.smtinfo.net/smtmaestro/smtm=
aestro.html
Daan Terstegge
SMT Centre
Thales Communications
Unclassified mail
>>> Olivia Mc Dermott <[log in to unmask]> 01/03 4:01 pm >>>
We do have inspection points throughout the process. The problem is they =
are
also missing defects and letting them through to final inspection.I =
wondered
if there is a direct instruction on inspecting.
1. you do this
2. you do this.
>From: Kathy Kuhlow <[log in to unmask]>
>Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: [TN] Final Audit/Inspection
>Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 08:49:32 -0600
>
>I would first start with some in-process sampling so you can pinpoint =
what
>types of defects the process is currently producing. Do you see more
>missing components from surface mount or do you have a problem withe =
solder
>shorts on the solder side because of wave issues or snapping problems.
>All to many organizations use a final inspection as a safety net. In my
>dream world I would have no one doing final inspection but bring it back =
to
>the process and do the inspection at the process through auditing by both
>production and quality personnel so immediate feedback can be accomplished=
.
> Otherwise you get data that is out of date and you can't really take
>effective corrective actions, especially if your world is as a CM or =
small
>run lots.
>
>If you must do a final inspection then we typically start with a complete
>part verification (value, polarity, AVL check) than solder (quality,
>quantity, lead placement) and finally any specific customer
>instructions(labeling, rev add, etc).
>
>Kathy
><< TEXT.htm >>
_________________________________________________________________
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Search previous postings at: www.ipc.org > On-Line Resources & Databases > =
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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 09:47:44 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: BEFORE ISO
X-To: "Barbara L. Zaepfel" <[log in to unmask]>
Barbara,
http://stevezeva.homestead.com/index.html
The images take a while to post. Should be soon as Steve is on it.
Earl
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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 08:04:02 -0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Darrel Therriault <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: INCEP Technologies, Inc.
Subject: Re: Final Audit/Inspection
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Olivia,
It seems you are dealing with what I would call "inspection escapes" from your processes.
Since you have
the data from catching these in final inspection, I would first start with these escapes and
fix the processes
where they are being performed incorrectly. Once the processes yield "zero defect" product,
any subsequent
escapes should be viewed as a process deviation and you need to address it to find out what
went wrong with
the process control. If you maintain this as an inspection process update, you should find
your process and yield
will be in better control. As an aside, for any escape ( or failure for that matter),
evaluating the process, doing
root cause and fixing/improving the process is the first order of business. Verifying it is
fixed is the second, so
instituting a followon inspection step for the process that generated the defect is what I
have done to verify the
fix was effective. Usually adding an inspection step to the offending process to verify a
previous escape has been
corrected and is now done correctly. Continuous improvement of this type should give you more
process control
and certainly improve your output or defect rate, depending on how you choose to measure it.
You can suspend
inspection steps once you determine the process is in control and escapes are no longer being
generated. I would
also suggest that process development and training play an important role in yields, which
includes the DFM/CE
recently being discussed on TechNet. Without a good process and trained operators, your
inspection problem
will probably be very active. Simply put, if you don't develope a good process and have
trained people to implement it,
chances are you will have many and varied escapes. If the process/operators don't perform it
correctly, its already a defect and it becomes an inspection issue that you hopefully catch
and not your customers.
Good Luck...........DT
Olivia Mc Dermott wrote:
> We do have inspection points throughout the process. The problem is they are
> also missing defects and letting them through to final inspection.I wondered
> if there is a direct instruction on inspecting.
> 1. you do this
> 2. you do this.
>
> >From: Kathy Kuhlow <[log in to unmask]>
> >Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
> >To: [log in to unmask]
> >Subject: Re: [TN] Final Audit/Inspection
> >Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 08:49:32 -0600
> >
> >I would first start with some in-process sampling so you can pinpoint what
> >types of defects the process is currently producing. Do you see more
> >missing components from surface mount or do you have a problem withe solder
> >shorts on the solder side because of wave issues or snapping problems.
> >All to many organizations use a final inspection as a safety net. In my
> >dream world I would have no one doing final inspection but bring it back to
> >the process and do the inspection at the process through auditing by both
> >production and quality personnel so immediate feedback can be accomplished.
> > Otherwise you get data that is out of date and you can't really take
> >effective corrective actions, especially if your world is as a CM or small
> >run lots.
> >
> >If you must do a final inspection then we typically start with a complete
> >part verification (value, polarity, AVL check) than solder (quality,
> >quantity, lead placement) and finally any specific customer
> >instructions(labeling, rev add, etc).
> >
> >Kathy
> ><< TEXT.htm >>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in
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> information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-509-9700 ext.5315
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Darrel Therriault
VP, Mfg. Operations
INCEP Technologies, Inc
(858)547-9925 223
[log in to unmask]
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=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 15:46:51 +0000
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Eric Christison <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: STMicroelectronics
Subject: Re: Ultrasonic Cleaning
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
FYI,
Our standard package for our optical sensors is 36 LCC. The silicon sits
inside a cavity sealed with a glass lid and the die is wire bonded. We
sold about 10 million of them last year a few less the year before and
few less the year before that.
We've never heard of sensors failing due to damage from ultrasonic
cleaning. Certainly in house, we ultrasonically clean sensors as a
matter of course and again, we've never seen a failure.
I imagine a problem might occur if a bond wire had a resonant frequency
near the frequency of the tank. However we've never heard of this
happening...
[log in to unmask] wrote:
> Mel,Unfortunately, much of this can not be shared.Suffice it to say,
> however, that it is my strong recommendation that any package (TO or
> MCM), having an internal cavity, where the wires are not surrounded by
> any dampening medium other than a gas (nitrogen) should NOT be
> subjected to ultrasonic cleaning - official reports, or not!One fairly
> quick way to test for damage is a before and after wire pull -
> naturally this is destructive.
> Steve Creswick - Gentex CorpPS - I heard on the news last night that
> parts of Alabama received 0.5-1" of snow, and a bit of freezing rain.
> Our official total was something like 54" Nothing like Buffalo, NY!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mel Parrish [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 4:10 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Ultrasonic Cleaning
>
> Steven and allI agree with your discussion but I have not
> seen supporting test results other than the studies from the
> Lake years ago with the TO package types. If you have any
> information that we could put in front of the J-STD-001, 610
> or other committees to support content, I would greatly
> appreciate it. The snow hasn't reached us in AL yet, but I
> wish you would take back this cold weather. Mel Parrish
> Soldering Technology International
> Madison, AL
> 256 705 5530
> 256 705 5538 Fax
> [log in to unmask]
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of
> Creswick, Steven
> Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 9:52 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Ultrasonic Cleaning
>
> Mel,I agree with the TO packages of old, but I
> have built many large scale hybrids (nowadays
> called MCM's) for both Military and
> pseudo-Military applications that contain anywhere
> from a few hundred to almost 1000 wire bonds.
> These are hermetic packages, usually ceramic, or
> metal. I suggest that no one ultrasonically clean
> them - Sorry, no return for defective
> components!!Also, the fine wire aluminum wedge
> bonded parts are more sussecptical to ultrasonic
> damage than the gold ball bonded units. The wedge
> bonded wires will fail (quicker) at either of the
> two 'heels'.Finally, don't go ultrasonically
> cleaning your ceramic Pentium processors, or many
> of the ceramic column grid array packages
> discussed last year.3-4 ft deep here in Michigan.
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mel Parrish
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 2:24
> PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Ultrasonic Cleaning
>
> StevenThe specific component types that
> were concerns for this cleaning method
> per the DoD studies were TO package IC's
> (not used much these days). Later
> testing by the EMPF looked at
> encapsulated components with better
> results, should still be available for
> review but I don't believe that the DoD
> studies are. Mel Parrish
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On
> Behalf Of Creswick, Steven
> Sent: Wednesday, January 02,
> 2002 8:17 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Ultrasonic
> Cleaning
>
> From a hybrid manufacturing
> standpoint we found that if
> the wirebonds are surrounded
> by the ultrasonic cleaning
> fluid there is no
> problem.However, if there is a
> cavity - there will be a
> problem.Put another way -
> ultrasonic cleaning of sealed
> units (nothing but dry
> nitrogen around the wires) was
> an open invitation for
> non-functional units.
> Cleaning of un-sealed units
> was not a problem.Most plastic
> encapsulated devices have no
> (intentional) air pockets
> around the wires, therefore, I
> would expect them to be okay.
> If you have sealed metal can
> type packages I would stay
> away from the
> ultrasonics.Steven Creswick -
> Gentex Corporation
>
> -----Original
> Message-----
> From: Dieselberg,
> Ron
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>
> Sent: Wednesday,
> January 02, 2002
> 10:26 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN]
> Ultrasonic Cleaning
>
> I had only one
> experience, about 15
> years ago. The
> assembly tested OK
> before cleaning in
> an ultrasonic tank.
> Afterwards it did
> not work. Failure
> analysis folks said
> almost all of the
> wire bonds in the
> three transistors
> were damaged.. Maybe
> someone has had good
> luck, but not me.
> That was the first
> and last on anything
> but a component-less
> board!
>
> Ron Dieselberg
> Trainer/Auditor
> CMC ELECTRONICS
> CINCINNATI
>
> [log in to unmask]
>
> -----Original
> Message-----
>
> From:
> Vinit
> Verma
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>
> Sent:
> Thursday,
> December
> 27, 2001
> 5:48 AM
> To:
> [log in to unmask]
>
> Subject:
> [TN]
> Ultrasonic
> Cleaning
>
> Hi
> Technetters,
>
> I am
> presently
> evaluating
> post
> reflow PCB
> cleaning
> machines,
> both
> aqueous
> and
> ultrasonic.
> I have a
> concern
> regarding
> ultrasonic
> cleaning.
> Read
> somewhere
> that the
> ultrasonic
> frequencies
> can have
> an effect
> on the
> wire
> bonds
> inside the
> packaging.
> Does
> anyone
> have any
> idea of
> this?
>
> Thanks in
> anticipation.
>
> Regards
> Vinit
> Verma
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Technet
> Mail List
> provided
> as a free
> service by
> IPC using
> LISTSERV
> 1.8d
> To
> unsubscribe,
> send a
> message to
> [log in to unmask]
> with
> following
> text in
> the BODY
> (NOT the
> subject
> field):
> SIGNOFF
> Technet
> To
> temporarily
> halt
> delivery
> of Technet
> send the
> following
> message:
> SET
> Technet
> NOMAIL
> Search
> previous
> postings
> at:
> www.ipc.org
> > On-Line
> Resources
> &
> Databases
> > E-mail
> Archives
> Please
> visit IPC
> web site
> (http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm)
> for
> additional
>
> information,
> or contact
> Keach
> Sasamori
> at
> [log in to unmask]
> or
> 847-509-9700
> ext.5315
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
--
Eric Christison
Mechanical Engineer
STMicroelectronics
33 Pinkhill
Edinburgh
EH12 7BF
Tel: (0)131 336 6165
Fax: (0)131 336 6001
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 16:41:47 +0000
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Olivia Mc Dermott <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Vertical Fill
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
In the event of a dispute over the vertical fill of 50% for class 2, how do
you determine if there is a 50% fill when no solder is evident on primary
side of PCB and you can't determine any solder in the barrel. PCB thickness
prevents determination.
_________________________________________________________________
Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com
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=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 09:52:48 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Misner, Bruce" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Ultrasonic Cleaning
Eric,
It sounds like your sensor is probably made with Au wire and your design
precludes the wires from seeing the resonant frequency. I will mimic Steve's
concerns about wire bonds in cavities seeing ultrasonics. While it does
appear to be hit or miss (probably resonant frequency related) with each
design and doesn't happen with too many designs, I certainly have seen
enough problems and failures to follow Steve's identical policy (it doesn't
take many confirmed failures to jump on this band wagon).
Good Luck,
Bruce Misner
> ----------
> From: Eric Christison[SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Reply To: TechNet E-Mail Forum.
> Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 10:46 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Ultrasonic Cleaning
>
> FYI,
>
> Our standard package for our optical sensors is 36 LCC. The silicon sits
> inside a cavity sealed with a glass lid and the die is wire bonded. We
> sold about 10 million of them last year a few less the year before and
> few less the year before that.
>
> We've never heard of sensors failing due to damage from ultrasonic
> cleaning. Certainly in house, we ultrasonically clean sensors as a
> matter of course and again, we've never seen a failure.
>
> I imagine a problem might occur if a bond wire had a resonant frequency
> near the frequency of the tank. However we've never heard of this
> happening...
>
>
>
>
> [log in to unmask] wrote:
>
> > Mel,Unfortunately, much of this can not be shared.Suffice it to say,
> > however, that it is my strong recommendation that any package (TO or
> > MCM), having an internal cavity, where the wires are not surrounded by
> > any dampening medium other than a gas (nitrogen) should NOT be
> > subjected to ultrasonic cleaning - official reports, or not!One fairly
> > quick way to test for damage is a before and after wire pull -
> > naturally this is destructive.
> > Steve Creswick - Gentex CorpPS - I heard on the news last night that
> > parts of Alabama received 0.5-1" of snow, and a bit of freezing rain.
> > Our official total was something like 54" Nothing like Buffalo, NY!
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Mel Parrish [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 4:10 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: [TN] Ultrasonic Cleaning
> >
> > Steven and allI agree with your discussion but I have not
> > seen supporting test results other than the studies from the
> > Lake years ago with the TO package types. If you have any
> > information that we could put in front of the J-STD-001, 610
> > or other committees to support content, I would greatly
> > appreciate it. The snow hasn't reached us in AL yet, but I
> > wish you would take back this cold weather. Mel Parrish
> > Soldering Technology International
> > Madison, AL
> > 256 705 5530
> > 256 705 5538 Fax
> > [log in to unmask]
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of
> > Creswick, Steven
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 9:52 AM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: [TN] Ultrasonic Cleaning
> >
> > Mel,I agree with the TO packages of old, but I
> > have built many large scale hybrids (nowadays
> > called MCM's) for both Military and
> > pseudo-Military applications that contain anywhere
> > from a few hundred to almost 1000 wire bonds.
> > These are hermetic packages, usually ceramic, or
> > metal. I suggest that no one ultrasonically clean
> > them - Sorry, no return for defective
> > components!!Also, the fine wire aluminum wedge
> > bonded parts are more sussecptical to ultrasonic
> > damage than the gold ball bonded units. The wedge
> > bonded wires will fail (quicker) at either of the
> > two 'heels'.Finally, don't go ultrasonically
> > cleaning your ceramic Pentium processors, or many
> > of the ceramic column grid array packages
> > discussed last year.3-4 ft deep here in Michigan.
> > Steve
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Mel Parrish
> > [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 2:24
> > PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: [TN] Ultrasonic Cleaning
> >
> > StevenThe specific component types that
> > were concerns for this cleaning method
> > per the DoD studies were TO package IC's
> > (not used much these days). Later
> > testing by the EMPF looked at
> > encapsulated components with better
> > results, should still be available for
> > review but I don't believe that the DoD
> > studies are. Mel Parrish
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: TechNet
> > [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On
> > Behalf Of Creswick, Steven
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 02,
> > 2002 8:17 AM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: [TN] Ultrasonic
> > Cleaning
> >
> > From a hybrid manufacturing
> > standpoint we found that if
> > the wirebonds are surrounded
> > by the ultrasonic cleaning
> > fluid there is no
> > problem.However, if there is a
> > cavity - there will be a
> > problem.Put another way -
> > ultrasonic cleaning of sealed
> > units (nothing but dry
> > nitrogen around the wires) was
> > an open invitation for
> > non-functional units.
> > Cleaning of un-sealed units
> > was not a problem.Most plastic
> > encapsulated devices have no
> > (intentional) air pockets
> > around the wires, therefore, I
> > would expect them to be okay.
> > If you have sealed metal can
> > type packages I would stay
> > away from the
> > ultrasonics.Steven Creswick -
> > Gentex Corporation
> >
> > -----Original
> > Message-----
> > From: Dieselberg,
> > Ron
> > [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> >
> > Sent: Wednesday,
> > January 02, 2002
> > 10:26 AM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: [TN]
> > Ultrasonic Cleaning
> >
> > I had only one
> > experience, about 15
> > years ago. The
> > assembly tested OK
> > before cleaning in
> > an ultrasonic tank.
> > Afterwards it did
> > not work. Failure
> > analysis folks said
> > almost all of the
> > wire bonds in the
> > three transistors
> > were damaged.. Maybe
> > someone has had good
> > luck, but not me.
> > That was the first
> > and last on anything
> > but a component-less
> > board!
> >
> > Ron Dieselberg
> > Trainer/Auditor
> > CMC ELECTRONICS
> > CINCINNATI
> >
> > [log in to unmask]
> >
> > -----Original
> > Message-----
> >
> > From:
> > Vinit
> > Verma
> >
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> >
> > Sent:
> > Thursday,
> > December
> > 27, 2001
> > 5:48 AM
> > To:
> > [log in to unmask]
> >
> > Subject:
> > [TN]
> > Ultrasonic
> > Cleaning
> >
> > Hi
> > Technetters,
> >
> > I am
> > presently
> > evaluating
> > post
> > reflow PCB
> > cleaning
> > machines,
> > both
> > aqueous
> > and
> > ultrasonic.
> > I have a
> > concern
> > regarding
> > ultrasonic
> > cleaning.
> > Read
> > somewhere
> > that the
> > ultrasonic
> > frequencies
> > can have
> > an effect
> > on the
> > wire
> > bonds
> > inside the
> > packaging.
> > Does
> > anyone
> > have any
> > idea of
> > this?
> >
> > Thanks in
> > anticipation.
> >
> > Regards
> > Vinit
> > Verma
> >
> >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------
> >
> > Technet
> > Mail List
> > provided
> > as a free
> > service by
> > IPC using
> > LISTSERV
> > 1.8d
> > To
> > unsubscribe,
> > send a
> > message to
> > [log in to unmask]
> > with
> > following
> > text in
> > the BODY
> > (NOT the
> > subject
> > field):
> > SIGNOFF
> > Technet
> > To
> > temporarily
> > halt
> > delivery
> > of Technet
> > send the
> > following
> > message:
> > SET
> > Technet
> > NOMAIL
> > Search
> > previous
> > postings
> > at:
> > www.ipc.org
> > > On-Line
> > Resources
> > &
> > Databases
> > > E-mail
> > Archives
> > Please
> > visit IPC
> > web site
> > (http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm)
> > for
> > additional
> >
> > information,
> > or contact
> > Keach
> > Sasamori
> > at
> > [log in to unmask]
> > or
> > 847-509-9700
> > ext.5315
> >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------
> >
> --
> Eric Christison
> Mechanical Engineer
> STMicroelectronics
> 33 Pinkhill
> Edinburgh
> EH12 7BF
>
> Tel: (0)131 336 6165
> Fax: (0)131 336 6001
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
> Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d
> To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in
> the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet
> To temporarily halt delivery of Technet send the following message: SET
> Technet NOMAIL
> Search previous postings at: www.ipc.org > On-Line Resources & Databases >
> E-mail Archives
> Please visit IPC web site (http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm) for
> additional
> information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-509-9700
> ext.5315
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d
To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in
the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet
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Please visit IPC web site (http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm) for additional
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---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 12:17:41 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Howard Watson <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: SMT Inductor soldering problem
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 005EB91787256B36_="
This is a multipart message in MIME format.
--=_alternative 005EB91787256B36_=
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Dear TechNetters,
We have a part that fell off during a vibration test, and I am concerned
about the lead configuration of this part. It is an Inductor, Simple
Switcher, from Pulse. The package is LCI-37, which uses wires for leads,
2 each on each side of the part. I am skeptical of this method (using
wires instead of flat leads) of securing the part to the PCB. Has anyone
had any experience with this type of inductor? Aside from the leads, I am
suspecting a contamination problem that contributed to the part falling
off the PCB. Is there any way to confirm contamination by examining the
remaining solder on the pads under a microscope? Under the scope at 25x,
the solder looks somewhat grainy with some voids. Any help is greatly
appreciated.
Howard Watson
Manufacturing Engineer
AMETEK/Dixson
--=_alternative 005EB91787256B36_=
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Dear TechNetters,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">We have a part that fell off during a vibration test, and I am concerned about the lead configuration of this part. It is an Inductor, Simple Switcher, from Pulse. The package is LCI-37, which uses wires for leads, 2 each on each side of the part. I am skeptical of this method (using wires instead of flat leads) of securing the part to the PCB. Has anyone had any experience with this type of inductor? Aside from the leads, I am suspecting a contamination problem that contributed to the part falling off the PCB. Is there any way to confirm contamination by examining the remaining solder on the pads under a microscope? Under the scope at 25x, the solder looks somewhat grainy with some voids. Any help is greatly appreciated.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Howard Watson<br>
Manufacturing Engineer<br>
AMETEK/Dixson</font>
--=_alternative 005EB91787256B36_=--
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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 12:23:42 EST
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Stephen R. Gregory" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: BEFORE ISO
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hey All!
Pic's are up...sorry it took me a while, just got of a meeting...
The link that Earl posted below be da' one...
-Steve Gregory-
> Barbara,
>
> http://stevezeva.homestead.com/index.html
>
> The images take a while to post. Should be soon as Steve is on it.
>
> Earl
>
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Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>Hey All!
<BR>
<BR>Pic's are up...sorry it took me a while, just got of a meeting...
<BR>
<BR>The link that Earl posted below be da' one...
<BR>
<BR>-Steve Gregory-
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Barbara,
<BR>
<BR>http://stevezeva.homestead.com/index.html
<BR>
<BR>The images take a while to post. Should be soon as Steve is on it.
<BR>
<BR>Earl
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT></HTML>
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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 12:26:24 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Creswick, Steven" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Ultrasonic Cleaning
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Eric,
I certainly would not dispute your info, but I do still tend to err on the
conservative side.
A supplier does not know whether the customer has a fixed frequency cleaner
(old) or a variable sweep frequency cleaner (new), or what the frequency
actually is.
We had wide variations in designed wire span and multilevel bonding within
each package, so the chance of any singular wire in the unit approaching
some sort of resonance was too great.
I personally believe that (fine wire) aluminum wedge bonds are far less
robust from an open cavity ultrasonic cleaning standpoint than are gold ball
bonds in the same situation, but I still tend to lump them all together as a
"if it is a cavity, I recommend not ultrasonically cleaning it".
Then again, maybe it is a matter of the end application, product cost,
environmental screening requirements, etc., etc. ....
If it works for you, or me, that is great! But, the next guy really ought
to do his homework first (with his own parts) and verify that he/she is not
creating a (costly) nightmare a few months down the road.
.......My last two bits on the matter. :-)
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Christison [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 10:47 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Ultrasonic Cleaning
FYI,
Our standard package for our optical sensors is 36 LCC. The silicon sits
inside a cavity sealed with a glass lid and the die is wire bonded. We
sold about 10 million of them last year a few less the year before and
few less the year before that.
We've never heard of sensors failing due to damage from ultrasonic
cleaning. Certainly in house, we ultrasonically clean sensors as a
matter of course and again, we've never seen a failure.
I imagine a problem might occur if a bond wire had a resonant frequency
near the frequency of the tank. However we've never heard of this
happening...
[log in to unmask] wrote:
> Mel,Unfortunately, much of this can not be shared.Suffice it to say,
> however, that it is my strong recommendation that any package (TO or
> MCM), having an internal cavity, where the wires are not surrounded by
> any dampening medium other than a gas (nitrogen) should NOT be
> subjected to ultrasonic cleaning - official reports, or not!One fairly
> quick way to test for damage is a before and after wire pull -
> naturally this is destructive.
> Steve Creswick - Gentex CorpPS - I heard on the news last night that
> parts of Alabama received 0.5-1" of snow, and a bit of freezing rain.
> Our official total was something like 54" Nothing like Buffalo, NY!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mel Parrish [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 4:10 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Ultrasonic Cleaning
>
> Steven and allI agree with your discussion but I have not
> seen supporting test results other than the studies from the
> Lake years ago with the TO package types. If you have any
> information that we could put in front of the J-STD-001, 610
> or other committees to support content, I would greatly
> appreciate it. The snow hasn't reached us in AL yet, but I
> wish you would take back this cold weather. Mel Parrish
> Soldering Technology International
> Madison, AL
> 256 705 5530
> 256 705 5538 Fax
> [log in to unmask]
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of
> Creswick, Steven
> Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 9:52 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Ultrasonic Cleaning
>
> Mel,I agree with the TO packages of old, but I
> have built many large scale hybrids (nowadays
> called MCM's) for both Military and
> pseudo-Military applications that contain anywhere
> from a few hundred to almost 1000 wire bonds.
> These are hermetic packages, usually ceramic, or
> metal. I suggest that no one ultrasonically clean
> them - Sorry, no return for defective
> components!!Also, the fine wire aluminum wedge
> bonded parts are more sussecptical to ultrasonic
> damage than the gold ball bonded units. The wedge
> bonded wires will fail (quicker) at either of the
> two 'heels'.Finally, don't go ultrasonically
> cleaning your ceramic Pentium processors, or many
> of the ceramic column grid array packages
> discussed last year.3-4 ft deep here in Michigan.
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mel Parrish
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 2:24
> PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Ultrasonic Cleaning
>
> StevenThe specific component types that
> were concerns for this cleaning method
> per the DoD studies were TO package IC's
> (not used much these days). Later
> testing by the EMPF looked at
> encapsulated components with better
> results, should still be available for
> review but I don't believe that the DoD
> studies are. Mel Parrish
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On
> Behalf Of Creswick, Steven
> Sent: Wednesday, January 02,
> 2002 8:17 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Ultrasonic
> Cleaning
>
> From a hybrid manufacturing
> standpoint we found that if
> the wirebonds are surrounded
> by the ultrasonic cleaning
> fluid there is no
> problem.However, if there is a
> cavity - there will be a
> problem.Put another way -
> ultrasonic cleaning of sealed
> units (nothing but dry
> nitrogen around the wires) was
> an open invitation for
> non-functional units.
> Cleaning of un-sealed units
> was not a problem.Most plastic
> encapsulated devices have no
> (intentional) air pockets
> around the wires, therefore, I
> would expect them to be okay.
> If you have sealed metal can
> type packages I would stay
> away from the
> ultrasonics.Steven Creswick -
> Gentex Corporation
>
> -----Original
> Message-----
> From: Dieselberg,
> Ron
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>
> Sent: Wednesday,
> January 02, 2002
> 10:26 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN]
> Ultrasonic Cleaning
>
> I had only one
> experience, about 15
> years ago. The
> assembly tested OK
> before cleaning in
> an ultrasonic tank.
> Afterwards it did
> not work. Failure
> analysis folks said
> almost all of the
> wire bonds in the
> three transistors
> were damaged.. Maybe
> someone has had good
> luck, but not me.
> That was the first
> and last on anything
> but a component-less
> board!
>
> Ron Dieselberg
> Trainer/Auditor
> CMC ELECTRONICS
> CINCINNATI
>
> [log in to unmask]
>
> -----Original
> Message-----
>
> From:
> Vinit
> Verma
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>
> Sent:
> Thursday,
> December
> 27, 2001
> 5:48 AM
> To:
> [log in to unmask]
>
> Subject:
> [TN]
> Ultrasonic
> Cleaning
>
> Hi
> Technetters,
>
> I am
> presently
> evaluating
> post
> reflow PCB
> cleaning
> machines,
> both
> aqueous
> and
> ultrasonic.
> I have a
> concern
> regarding
> ultrasonic
> cleaning.
> Read
> somewhere
> that the
> ultrasonic
> frequencies
> can have
> an effect
> on the
> wire
> bonds
> inside the
> packaging.
> Does
> anyone
> have any
> idea of
> this?
>
> Thanks in
> anticipation.
>
> Regards
> Vinit
> Verma
>
>
>
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----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
--
Eric Christison
Mechanical Engineer
STMicroelectronics
33 Pinkhill
Edinburgh
EH12 7BF
Tel: (0)131 336 6165
Fax: (0)131 336 6001
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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 09:51:13 -0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Jana Carraway <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Final Audit/Inspection
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Daan or others,
Could anyone refer me to articles, studies, etc. that demonstrate the
inefficiency of visual inspection and, if I remember correctly, the drop in
efficiency over time? I'm working on incoming inspection of bare
substrates - possibly an AQL type sampling, but have many concerns regarding
supplier lot quality, visual inspection efficiency, and product quality
requirements. Earl and I have been chatting about this for a bit now.
Another question, since I have your rapt attention... is it possible to
statistically equate lot quality (yield) to outgoing quality (yield)? In
other words, the supplier would have to produce product at xx% yield to meet
incoming requirement of yy% yield?
Best of the New Year to you all,
Jana Carraway
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of d. terstegge
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 7:22 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Final Audit/Inspection
Hi Olivia,
You should be very happy if your inspection people catch more than 50% of
the defects. The remainder will simply be overlooked. This is not an
opinion, but it's a proven fact !!
It is just not possible to inspect quality into the product, instead you
should focus on the assembly process.
B.T.W. on my website I have some nice software available (it's a free beta
version) that may be helpfull for you with the inspection of the pcb's after
pick&place machine. The URL is
http://www.smtinfo.net/smtmaestro/smtmaestro.html
Daan Terstegge
SMT Centre
Thales Communications
Unclassified mail
>>> Olivia Mc Dermott <[log in to unmask]> 01/03 4:01 pm >>>
We do have inspection points throughout the process. The problem is they are
also missing defects and letting them through to final inspection.I wondered
if there is a direct instruction on inspecting.
1. you do this
2. you do this.
>From: Kathy Kuhlow <[log in to unmask]>
>Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: [TN] Final Audit/Inspection
>Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 08:49:32 -0600
>
>I would first start with some in-process sampling so you can pinpoint what
>types of defects the process is currently producing. Do you see more
>missing components from surface mount or do you have a problem withe solder
>shorts on the solder side because of wave issues or snapping problems.
>All to many organizations use a final inspection as a safety net. In my
>dream world I would have no one doing final inspection but bring it back to
>the process and do the inspection at the process through auditing by both
>production and quality personnel so immediate feedback can be accomplished.
> Otherwise you get data that is out of date and you can't really take
>effective corrective actions, especially if your world is as a CM or small
>run lots.
>
>If you must do a final inspection then we typically start with a complete
>part verification (value, polarity, AVL check) than solder (quality,
>quantity, lead placement) and finally any specific customer
>instructions(labeling, rev add, etc).
>
>Kathy
><< TEXT.htm >>
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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 10:02:50 -0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Dan R. Johnson" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: BEFORE ISO
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Earl,
Your killing me, try Mil-M-38510. How 'bout Mil-Std-883. These were the
documents I lived and breathed by for years. Mostly we would quote paragraph
and subsections to those pesky source inspectors trying to prove we were
compliant. The standing joke was "If you had enough paper you could ship
product whether it worked or not.". All in All I think ISO is a kinder and
gentler standard with much more emphasis on building quality in rather
trying to inspect/screen it in.
Dan
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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 13:01:16 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Tom Parkinson - Quality Assurance Manager <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: WinTronics, Inc.
Subject: Re: Vertical Fill
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Olivia,
I have run into this on various occasions - the key is, if you cannot
see it, it is not there. In other words if you can see the PTH, but you
cannot tell if the solder is at least up to 50% fill (Class 2 with
internal heat robbing layer) - then you have to take the position, that
it is a defect. You have to see it to pass it.
However, as with most of 610-C & J-STD-001, if you can PROVE your
process does in fact accomplish the minimum 50%, then it is acceptable.
The proof may cost more and take so much time, it may not be worth it.
And since it is a process that is being relied upon to give you the
minimum 50%, you better have it fully documented.
Tom
Olivia Mc Dermott wrote:
>
> In the event of a dispute over the vertical fill of 50% for class 2, how do
> you determine if there is a 50% fill when no solder is evident on primary
> side of PCB and you can't determine any solder in the barrel. PCB thickness
> prevents determination.
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
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> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 13:15:01 EST
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: James Moffitt <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re Hole Fill
X-To: [log in to unmask]
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Olivia:
- Re the hole fill question. Presuming that you are using IPC-A-610C as the
acceptability standard for visual inspection, please note that the 50% hole
fill is Acceptable for Class 2 ONLY when: 1) the partial hole fill is caused
by thermal planes or conductor planes internal to the PWB, 2) solder wetting
is 100% of the circumference of the lead and PTH wall on the secondary side,
and 3) surrounding PTH's meet the requirements of Table 6-2.
- Bottom line, if you meet the criteria above, and can comply with Criteria A
of Table 6-2 then the condition is Acceptable. If you don't meet 1), 2), &
3) above and/or can't visually confirm that you meet Criteria A (180 degrees
of circumferential wetting on primary side [solder destination side] of the
lead and barrel) then the condition must be considered a Defect.
- Hope the above helps. If not call (317.773.5570)and we can discuss it
further.
Regards, Jim Moffitt, Moffitt Consulting Services
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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 12:29:47 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Kathy Kuhlow <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: BEFORE ISO
Mime-Version: 1.0
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This is a MIME message. If you are reading this text, you may want to
consider changing to a mail reader or gateway that understands how to
properly handle MIME multipart messages.
--=_F6ABF335.81E08DBA
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hey I still have the Martin Marietta Manuals. We've come along way since =
those days but you can defiantly see the beginnings of the ISO requirements=
. =20
kat
--=_F6ABF335.81E08DBA
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="TEXT.htm"
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1" http-equiv=Content-Type>
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<BODY
style="FONT: 10pt Abadi MT Condensed Light; MARGIN-LEFT: 2px; MARGIN-TOP: 2px">
<DIV>hey I still have the Martin Marietta Manuals. We've come along way
since those days but you can defiantly see the beginnings of the ISO
requirements. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>kat</DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 12:28:30 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Final Audit/Inspection
X-To: Jana Carraway <[log in to unmask]>
Jana,
I've really missed our interesting conversations. You know how I feel about
incoming inspections. I needn't repeat they should be abandoned entirely.
You know how I feel about DFM/CE and the highly manufacturable designs that
should come from their processes. You also know that I revere good supplier
evaluation and qualification processes and procedures. Hell, is there anyone
who doesn't know how I feel and does it matter?
In the good old days, besides the other MIL documents I've discussed, there
was another named MIL-I-45208. When a supplier couldn't conform to some
other requirements assuring process control was being effected, some
customers allowed inspections to be performed.
In all cases, inspections performed - whether at incoming, in process, or at
final - required results to be correlated with customer contract
requirements as drawings and/or specifications. Again, in all cases, when
defects were found, exceeding acceptance criteria, corrective action was
required. Sound familiar - as in ISO 9000? Anyway, if corrective action
yielded defects, contracts were cancelled at some point.
Customer incoming inspections could be used to find defect, but it was
highly desirable, to continue good supplier/customer relations, that they
were caught at least at final. Another inspection technique was using source
inspectors at the supplier site to assist in finding defect or approving
specified quality. You may think in these terms.
But, as Daan has said, and everyone in the free world knows, you can't
inspect quality into product. In this light, how much abuse does one have to
endure before something affecting adverse quality is done. Do you change the
design, process, or both? It's up to the customer and when the right
decision is made, life is better as quality improves.
MIL-Q-9858A (another AAAAAA) is available in the paper back version
(actually .pdf) from you local SITNET dealer. It's just for interest's sake.
Enjoy Jana,
Earl
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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 12:37:43 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: BEFORE ISO
X-To: "Dan R. Johnson" <[log in to unmask]>
Dan,
Thanks and I too remember the good old days and the recitations and paper
piling higher that Everest. Still did some good work though. Still work a
lot with 883 and some of those test methods never changed, nor did they have
to. Some could use a little improvement like 2020.
Yeh, I'm having so much fun I'm going to give away the first 3000 copies of
my book. Maybe, I'll rethink that one.
Enjoy Dan,
Earl
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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 12:41:00 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: BEFORE ISO
X-To: Kathy Kuhlow <[log in to unmask]>
Yeh Kathy, those were the days. Worked pretty well for a while. Reminds me
of how well another MM worked back then.
MoonMan
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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 13:48:30 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Debbie Schepis <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Bellcore certification
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We've recently been told that a customer requires their suppliers to be
"Bellcore certified", and that just stating that we comply with the specs
is not enough. As a PWB supplier, I'm assuming the spec I need to be
concerned with is the "GR-78-CORE, Generic Requirements for the Physical
Design and Manufacture of Telecommunications Products and Equipment". Can
anyone tell me if a supplier can be "certified" to this spec, and if so,
who does the certification? I searched on the web, but couldn't find any
reference to this particular spec, as far as the testing labs go. Any
insight would be helpful. Is there anyone out there that is already
certified?
Debbie
Deborah Schepis
OEM Printed Circuit Applications
Dept T46G / Bldg 022-2 / Office J004
Tie line 855-5558 / External phone (607) 755-5558 / Fax 857-1558
E-mail schepisd @ us.ibm.com
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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 11:00:01 -0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Dan R. Johnson" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Trace width
MIME-version: 1.0
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boundary="Boundary_(ID_fuMSgQdat6tsbFgUBdaJSQ)"
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Here is one I have recently been hit with. My current incarnation as an engineer is with and RF component manufacturer. We recently hired a new design engineer, he uses embedded inductors in the pcb fab. The prototypes, produced with a board mill, worked fine. The pilot production boards had a parametric problem. We traced it to a reduction in the inductor trace width due to the etch factor (currently unspecified on the fab drawing.) Due to size constraints the inductor uses .004" traces with .004" separation. So here is the question; how do I specify the acceptable variation on a specific feature of the PCB, and what is reasonable (i.e. how tight can I spec. trace variance without driving the cost out of sight).
Thanks,
Dan
--Boundary_(ID_fuMSgQdat6tsbFgUBdaJSQ)
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Here is one I have recently been hit with. My current
incarnation as an engineer is with and RF component manufacturer. We recently
hired a new design engineer, he uses embedded inductors in the pcb fab. The
prototypes, produced with a board mill, worked fine. The pilot production boards
had a parametric problem. We traced it to a reduction in the inductor trace
width due to the etch factor (currently unspecified on the fab drawing.) Due to
size constraints the inductor uses .004" traces with .004" separation. So here
is the question; how do I specify the acceptable variation on a specific feature
of the PCB, and what is reasonable (i.e. how tight can I spec. trace variance
without driving the cost out of sight). </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Thanks,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Dan</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
--Boundary_(ID_fuMSgQdat6tsbFgUBdaJSQ)--
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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 12:57:46 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Bellcore certification
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Debbie,
You should talk to Debbie Obitz at Trace Labs East. She knows all about
Bellcore certification and has had numerous conversations with Bellcore
people. She probably knows the stuff better than Bellcore does. Debbie
can be contacted at [log in to unmask] or by phone at 410-584-9099.
Doug Pauls
Rockwell Collins
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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 13:57:12 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Lou Hart <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Compunetix, Inc.
Subject: Re: Final Audit/Inspection
Olivia, Kathy, et al., what kinds of defects is inspection missing, and
what fraction of defects is it catching? The inspector missed something -
so what else is new? As we all know, visual inspection is typically said
to be 85% effective. The few times (no more than 4) that I have been able
to check inspection effectiveness against true process performance, I have
calculated confidence intervals that included the 85% number. My view is
that inspection can serve as a pretty good safety net, to catch a problem
of, say, a polarized capacitor installed backwards on each of 20 board, but
in finding needle-in-the-haystack problems its capabilities are limited.
As the frequency of the occurence of defects decreases, the probability of
detection of any individual defect decreases, as one might expect and which
research result was reported by Malcolm Gladwell in the New Yorker a few
weeks back. (That's why paying airport inspectors more won't make planes
safer.)
Also, I tell people our inspection instructions do not provide for any
"overlap". The statement that "three inspectors missed it" is not true -
one inspector has the job of looking for, say, surface mount solder
nonconformances and no other inspector will even try. Two people have a
chance to make a mistake - the person who installs the part and one
inspector. Lou Hart
-----Original Message-----
From: Olivia Mc Dermott [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 10:01 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Final Audit/Inspection
We do have inspection points throughout the process. The problem is they
are
also missing defects and letting them through to final inspection.I
wondered
if there is a direct instruction on inspecting.
1. you do this
2. you do this.
>From: Kathy Kuhlow <[log in to unmask]>
>Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: [TN] Final Audit/Inspection
>Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 08:49:32 -0600
>
>I would first start with some in-process sampling so you can pinpoint what
>types of defects the process is currently producing. Do you see more
>missing components from surface mount or do you have a problem withe
solder
>shorts on the solder side because of wave issues or snapping problems.
>All to many organizations use a final inspection as a safety net. In my
>dream world I would have no one doing final inspection but bring it back
to
>the process and do the inspection at the process through auditing by both
>production and quality personnel so immediate feedback can be
accomplished.
> Otherwise you get data that is out of date and you can't really take
>effective corrective actions, especially if your world is as a CM or small
>run lots.
>
>If you must do a final inspection then we typically start with a complete
>part verification (value, polarity, AVL check) than solder (quality,
>quantity, lead placement) and finally any specific customer
>instructions(labeling, rev add, etc).
>
>Kathy
><< TEXT.htm >>
_________________________________________________________________
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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 14:12:59 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Jon Metz <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Trace width
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Dan,
It has been my experience that it depends on the starting copper wt. and how
much plating is being applied after drilling.
For example:
* Rogers 4003 .032 thick 1/2 oZ. plated up to 1 1/2 oZ. can be spec'd, this
will give you a total finished conductor width
tolerance of .0015 (mils)
* Rogers 4003 .032 thick 1 oZ plated up to 2 oZ. can be spec'd, this will
give you a total finished conductor width tolerance of
.001 (mils).
It is important to note that these types of PCB's should be marked as
"critical etch" on the fabrication drawing.
My experience is with small QTY. There was no difference in pricing from
unspecified tolerance. If you are interested I can
give you information for a PCB fab shop that you can work with on this.
Regards,
Jon Metz
PCB Designer
-----Original Message-----
From: Dan R. Johnson [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 2:00 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Trace width
Here is one I have recently been hit with. My current incarnation as an
engineer is with and RF component manufacturer. We recently hired a new
design engineer, he uses embedded inductors in the pcb fab. The prototypes,
produced with a board mill, worked fine. The pilot production boards had a
parametric problem. We traced it to a reduction in the inductor trace width
due to the etch factor (currently unspecified on the fab drawing.) Due to
size constraints the inductor uses .004" traces with .004" separation. So
here is the question; how do I specify the acceptable variation on a
specific feature of the PCB, and what is reasonable (i.e. how tight can I
spec. trace variance without driving the cost out of sight).
Thanks,
Dan
------_=_NextPart_001_01C1948A.A837C730
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<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=273110019-03012002>Dan,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=273110019-03012002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=273110019-03012002>It has
been my experience that it depends on the starting copper wt. and how much
plating is being applied after drilling.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=273110019-03012002>For
example:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=273110019-03012002>*
Rogers 4003 .032 thick 1/2 oZ. plated up to 1 1/2 oZ. can be spec'd, this will
give you a total finished conductor width</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=273110019-03012002>tolerance of .0015 (mils)</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=273110019-03012002>*
Rogers 4003 .032 thick 1 oZ plated up to 2 oZ. can be spec'd, this will give you
a total finished conductor width tolerance of</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=273110019-03012002>.001
(mils).</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=273110019-03012002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=273110019-03012002>It is
important to note that these types of PCB's should be marked as "critical etch"
on the fabrication drawing.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=273110019-03012002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=273110019-03012002>My
experience is with small QTY. There was no difference in pricing from
unspecified tolerance. If you are interested I can</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=273110019-03012002>give
you information for a PCB fab shop that you can work with on
this.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=273110019-03012002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=273110019-03012002>Regards,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=273110019-03012002>Jon
Metz</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=273110019-03012002>PCB
Designer</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Dan R. Johnson
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 03, 2002 2:00
PM<BR><B>To:</B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> [TN] Trace
width<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Here is one I have recently been hit with. My current
incarnation as an engineer is with and RF component manufacturer. We recently
hired a new design engineer, he uses embedded inductors in the pcb fab. The
prototypes, produced with a board mill, worked fine. The pilot production
boards had a parametric problem. We traced it to a reduction in the inductor
trace width due to the etch factor (currently unspecified on the fab drawing.)
Due to size constraints the inductor uses .004" traces with .004" separation.
So here is the question; how do I specify the acceptable variation on a
specific feature of the PCB, and what is reasonable (i.e. how tight can I
spec. trace variance without driving the cost out of sight). </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Thanks,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Dan</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 13:08:04 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Trace width
X-To: "Dan R. Johnson" <[log in to unmask]>
Dan,
I did a job last year in the Boston area doing some DC and RF board
combinations on the same structure. Two of the boards had "designed in"
inductors. We too had the concern.
Worked with the folks at the old Hadco, now Sanmina, and found we had to pay
a bit more at first. What really did it for us was negotiating a contract
saying that whatever acceptable inductor was found, we would only order
production quantities if the same process was used.
600 said/says something to the effect that trace width reductions below 20%,
including pits, scratches, dents, etc., shall not be acceptable. No matter,
that number or half of it won't do it for printed inductors. Anyway we
worked with the supplier and a very good process engineer (Ara Kharajian - Sanmina Tech
East Haverhill
(978-556-6327)/([log in to unmask])and worked out the requirements.
Earl
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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 13:16:16 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Final Audit/Inspection
X-To: Jana Carraway <[log in to unmask]>
Jana,
I didn't know this thing was a flex circuit. I could tell you some stories
about this business. So can my old pal Earl Zawicki (EZ). He and I worked
for a well known board house Southern California some 20 years ago. The
company was proud of making the most difficult boards imaginable at that
time and even now. The motto was that we would build anything for the right
price.
Most often EZ (fine young process engineer he was) and the team would do the
trick. However, sometimes it couldn't be done after assuring the customer it
could. If EZ is lurking, he might tell a story or two that no amount of
inspection, process control, or DFM would cure.
You just might have one of those stories to tell someday soon. I hope not
for your sake. No matter, your inspection efforts or the suppliers will do
no good. You just may have to take what you can get out of your 100%
inspection efforts and be happy.
Earl
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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 14:30:54 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Jerry Mosur <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Trace width
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Dan,
Get in touch with people from R&D Circuits, http://www.rdcircuits.com/
<http://www.rdcircuits.com/>
They can maintain extremely close etch tolerances.
Hope this help,
Jerry
-----Original Message-----
From: Dan R. Johnson [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 2:00 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Trace width
Here is one I have recently been hit with. My current incarnation as an
engineer is with and RF component manufacturer. We recently hired a new
design engineer, he uses embedded inductors in the pcb fab. The prototypes,
produced with a board mill, worked fine. The pilot production boards had a
parametric problem. We traced it to a reduction in the inductor trace width
due to the etch factor (currently unspecified on the fab drawing.) Due to
size constraints the inductor uses .004" traces with .004" separation. So
here is the question; how do I specify the acceptable variation on a
specific feature of the PCB, and what is reasonable (i.e. how tight can I
spec. trace variance without driving the cost out of sight).
Thanks,
Dan
------_=_NextPart_001_01C1948D.2941C400
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="windows-1252"
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=windows-1252">
<META content="MSHTML 5.50.4611.1300" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><SPAN class=307172419-03012002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Dan,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=307172419-03012002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=307172419-03012002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Get in
touch with people from R&D Circuits, <A
href="http://www.rdcircuits.com/">http://www.rdcircuits.com/</A></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=307172419-03012002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>They
can maintain extremely close etch tolerances.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=307172419-03012002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=307172419-03012002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Hope
this help,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=307172419-03012002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=307172419-03012002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Jerry</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Dan R. Johnson
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 03, 2002 2:00
PM<BR><B>To:</B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> [TN] Trace
width<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Here is one I have recently been hit with. My current
incarnation as an engineer is with and RF component manufacturer. We recently
hired a new design engineer, he uses embedded inductors in the pcb fab. The
prototypes, produced with a board mill, worked fine. The pilot production
boards had a parametric problem. We traced it to a reduction in the inductor
trace width due to the etch factor (currently unspecified on the fab drawing.)
Due to size constraints the inductor uses .004" traces with .004" separation.
So here is the question; how do I specify the acceptable variation on a
specific feature of the PCB, and what is reasonable (i.e. how tight can I
spec. trace variance without driving the cost out of sight). </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Thanks,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Dan</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
------_=_NextPart_001_01C1948D.2941C400--
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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 11:38:01 -0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Jana Carraway <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Final Audit/Inspection
X-To: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Wow, Earl, that really changed your tune!! But I don't really accept that I
have to be Zen about 100% incoming inspection because the substrate is flex!
I would prefer the discussion stay generic, more valuable to more people.
Let me finish responding to your last email.
Jana Carraway
You just might have one of those stories to tell someday soon. I hope not
for your sake. No matter, your inspection efforts or the suppliers will do
no good. You just may have to take what you can get out of your 100%
inspection efforts and be happy.
Earl
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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 13:40:24 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Final Audit/Inspection
X-To: Jana Carraway <[log in to unmask]>
Yes Jana, I'm singing a different toon/tune now. Of course, there are some
things that shouldn't be designed at all unless there's a process to support
them.
DFM/CE, and ISO's section 7.3, speaks to evolutionary designs and processes
as the preferred way to go. That means, as above, revolutionary designs and
processes require breakthroughs not currently available. You can envision
the rest.
Earl
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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 12:24:47 -0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Dan R. Johnson" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Trace width
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Jon,
Thanks for the insight. Variance of .0015 - .001 equates to 37.5% - 40% for a .004" trace. As a guess I think we need closer to 10 - 20%. I also shy away from spec' ing methods I prefer to specify the desired result. The PCB's I have worked with in the past could tolerate comparatively large variations so this was never an issue. Guess I need to stay tuned and learn, the discussion on plate through mechanism was particularly enlightening.
Dan
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<DIV><FONT size=2>Jon,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Thanks for the insight. Variance of .0015 - .001 equates to
37.5% - 40% for a .004" trace. As a guess I think we need closer to 10 - 20%. I
also shy away from spec' ing methods I prefer to specify the desired result. The
PCB's I have worked with in the past could tolerate comparatively large
variations so this was never an issue. Guess I need to stay tuned and learn, the
discussion on plate through mechanism was particularly enlightening.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Dan</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
--Boundary_(ID_PqpBPyuQb6NtQ5HscH+Fqw)--
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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 12:28:33 -0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Dan R. Johnson" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Trace width
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Earl & Jerry,
Thanks, I think this Co. is ready for some "fresh blood" on the PCB vendor front.
Dan
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<DIV><FONT size=2>Earl & Jerry,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Thanks, I think this Co. is ready for some "fresh blood"
on the PCB vendor front.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Dan</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 15:30:10 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Scott Kauling <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Tri-onics, Inc.
Subject: Distance Formula
I have a roll of belting, I know the inner diameter the outer diameter and
how many layers are on the roll. What is the formula to calculate the
length of the belting.
Thanks in advance.
Scott Kauling
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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 15:49:31 -0600
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Ashok Dhawan <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Distance Formula
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Scott
You need to know the thickness of belt as well. The general equation is :
Lenght = no. of turns * 1/2 * 22/7 * ( dia outer + dia inner)
where no. of turns are = ( dia outer -dia inner) / thickness of belt
Hence , the Lenghth will be = [1/2 * 22/7 * {SQ( dia outer) - SQ(dia
inner)}]/ thickness of belt
It is assumed that belt is rolled tight - gaps between layers are negligible
as compared to thickness of belt.
I used this formula for counting components on SMT tape & reels - the counts
had been approximate and quick to do.
Ashok Dhawan P.Eng.
Engineering
C-MAC Network Systems Inc.
1455 Mountain Roar
Winnipeg Manitoba R2X 2Y9
WWW.CMAC.COM
TEL (204) 631 7208
FAX (204) 631 7294
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Scott Kauling
> Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 3:30 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] Distance Formula
>
>
> I have a roll of belting, I know the inner diameter the outer diameter and
> how many layers are on the roll. What is the formula to calculate the
> length of the belting.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Scott Kauling
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
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> additional
> information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or
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> ------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 14:24:40 -0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: My Nguyen <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Resister/Capacitor - ICs Ratio for DDR (1 and 2 Generation)
X-To: [log in to unmask]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Hi Technetters,
We are working on several projects – Panel Layout
Standardization, Future P&P Platform Evaluation, etc.,
in which the ratio between Restier/Cap and ICs is a
critical factor.
For Regular DIMM, Register DIMM, etc. the ratios are
all figured out. However, as I look at the DDR Future
Roadmap and its market share the current DDR modules
we are making, I realize that this change has to be
considered seriously: We need your help!
Please advise us, what would be the Resister/Capacitor
– ICs ratio (or common ratio) of PCXXXX 184 Pin DIMM
and PCXXXX 200-Pin SO-DIMM:
1. 64Mb – x4, x8, x16, x32, 1 and 2 generation using:
a. TSOP66
b. FBGA
2. 128Mb – x4, x8, x16, x32, 1 and 2 generation using:
a. TSOP66
b. FBGA
3. 256Mb – x4, x8, x16, 1 and 2 generation using:
a. TSOP66
b. FBGA
4. 512Mb – x4, x8, x16,, 1 and 2 generation using:
a. TSOP66
b. FBGA
Also, besides the standard dimension: 125” x 5.25 –
184-Pin DIMM, 1.00” or 1.25” x 2.66” – 200-Pin SODIMM,
are there any other alternative dimension that
different memory designer/manufacture may employ?
Your help is greatly appreciated.
Stacy
__________________________________________________
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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 14:11:48 -0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Jana Carraway <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Final Audit/Inspection
X-To: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Allrightythen..... In a perfect world, all this works, however, we live and
work in an imperfect world! So, from my imperfect world experiences, here's
my reality...
What if:
you are not in the commercial market, and
there are few companies capable of manufacturing your designs, and
the design specifications are required for the end product, and
it's a specialty product, so it is not IBM or Cisco volumes, hence your
vendor pool is small, and
the supplier has not been able to meet the yields they initially projected
for such designs, and
then on top of all that...it's flex...
A design can only be tweaked (real word? spelling?) or DFM'd within the
required technology design limits. If we designed for 100% yield, we could
not build the products. I think that's real life for many people. We
accept, and the manufacturer accepts, that the product yield will be greatly
less than 100%. Okay, that's life with these products.
So, then we go back to the basic question(s), what is reasonable to expect
at incoming - a)100% good product in the door, b) perform an AQL, c) perform
100% inspection, or d)other...?
Perhaps something you've been saying has more impact than I realize, as I
think about it - contract negotiations. If the supplier signs up to meet
design/product criteria and doesn't, my options are:
a)change suppliers,
b)if a is not possible, negotiate incremental improvements with the goal of
meeting the specifications?
At what point/product type/product complexity does expecting the supplier to
provide 100% good parts fail or become unreasonable?
Just food for thought,
Jana Carraway
-----Original Message-----
From: Earl Moon [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 10:29 AM
To: [log in to unmask]; Jana Carraway
Subject: Re: Final Audit/Inspection
Jana,
I've really missed our interesting conversations. You know how I feel about
incoming inspections. I needn't repeat they should be abandoned entirely.
You know how I feel about DFM/CE and the highly manufacturable designs that
should come from their processes. You also know that I revere good supplier
evaluation and qualification processes and procedures. Hell, is there anyone
who doesn't know how I feel and does it matter?
In the good old days, besides the other MIL documents I've discussed, there
was another named MIL-I-45208. When a supplier couldn't conform to some
other requirements assuring process control was being effected, some
customers allowed inspections to be performed.
In all cases, inspections performed - whether at incoming, in process, or at
final - required results to be correlated with customer contract
requirements as drawings and/or specifications. Again, in all cases, when
defects were found, exceeding acceptance criteria, corrective action was
required. Sound familiar - as in ISO 9000? Anyway, if corrective action
yielded defects, contracts were cancelled at some point.
Customer incoming inspections could be used to find defect, but it was
highly desirable, to continue good supplier/customer relations, that they
were caught at least at final. Another inspection technique was using source
inspectors at the supplier site to assist in finding defect or approving
specified quality. You may think in these terms.
But, as Daan has said, and everyone in the free world knows, you can't
inspect quality into product. In this light, how much abuse does one have to
endure before something affecting adverse quality is done. Do you change the
design, process, or both? It's up to the customer and when the right
decision is made, life is better as quality improves.
MIL-Q-9858A (another AAAAAA) is available in the paper back version
(actually .pdf) from you local SITNET dealer. It's just for interest's sake.
Enjoy Jana,
Earl
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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 17:53:42 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Final Audit/Inspection
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Yeh, I see what you mean about contract negotiations. Hard enough in
english, eh (Canadian)? Drawings are always best provided they're clearly
defined.
Earl
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jana Carraway" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 5:11 PM
Subject: Re: [TN] Final Audit/Inspection
> Allrightythen..... In a perfect world, all this works, however, we live
and
> work in an imperfect world! So, from my imperfect world experiences,
here's
> my reality...
>
> What if:
> you are not in the commercial market, and
> there are few companies capable of manufacturing your designs, and
> the design specifications are required for the end product, and
> it's a specialty product, so it is not IBM or Cisco volumes, hence your
> vendor pool is small, and
> the supplier has not been able to meet the yields they initially projected
> for such designs, and
> then on top of all that...it's flex...
>
> A design can only be tweaked (real word? spelling?) or DFM'd within the
> required technology design limits. If we designed for 100% yield, we
could
> not build the products. I think that's real life for many people. We
> accept, and the manufacturer accepts, that the product yield will be
greatly
> less than 100%. Okay, that's life with these products.
>
> So, then we go back to the basic question(s), what is reasonable to expect
> at incoming - a)100% good product in the door, b) perform an AQL, c)
perform
> 100% inspection, or d)other...?
>
> Perhaps something you've been saying has more impact than I realize, as I
> think about it - contract negotiations. If the supplier signs up to meet
> design/product criteria and doesn't, my options are:
> a)change suppliers,
> b)if a is not possible, negotiate incremental improvements with the goal
of
> meeting the specifications?
>
> At what point/product type/product complexity does expecting the supplier
to
> provide 100% good parts fail or become unreasonable?
>
> Just food for thought,
> Jana Carraway
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Earl Moon [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 10:29 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]; Jana Carraway
> Subject: Re: Final Audit/Inspection
>
>
> Jana,
>
> I've really missed our interesting conversations. You know how I feel
about
> incoming inspections. I needn't repeat they should be abandoned entirely.
> You know how I feel about DFM/CE and the highly manufacturable designs
that
> should come from their processes. You also know that I revere good
supplier
> evaluation and qualification processes and procedures. Hell, is there
anyone
> who doesn't know how I feel and does it matter?
>
> In the good old days, besides the other MIL documents I've discussed,
there
> was another named MIL-I-45208. When a supplier couldn't conform to some
> other requirements assuring process control was being effected, some
> customers allowed inspections to be performed.
>
> In all cases, inspections performed - whether at incoming, in process, or
at
> final - required results to be correlated with customer contract
> requirements as drawings and/or specifications. Again, in all cases, when
> defects were found, exceeding acceptance criteria, corrective action was
> required. Sound familiar - as in ISO 9000? Anyway, if corrective action
> yielded defects, contracts were cancelled at some point.
>
> Customer incoming inspections could be used to find defect, but it was
> highly desirable, to continue good supplier/customer relations, that they
> were caught at least at final. Another inspection technique was using
source
> inspectors at the supplier site to assist in finding defect or approving
> specified quality. You may think in these terms.
>
> But, as Daan has said, and everyone in the free world knows, you can't
> inspect quality into product. In this light, how much abuse does one have
to
> endure before something affecting adverse quality is done. Do you change
the
> design, process, or both? It's up to the customer and when the right
> decision is made, life is better as quality improves.
>
> MIL-Q-9858A (another AAAAAA) is available in the paper back version
> (actually .pdf) from you local SITNET dealer. It's just for interest's
sake.
>
> Enjoy Jana,
>
> Earl
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 15:52:50 -0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: peter lee <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: SPC software package selection
In-Reply-To: <004501c194a9$7e895d80$1a3ffea9@moonman3>
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Hello technetters,
This is an old topic but I would like to review and
get your inputs.
I am sourcing a 3rd party SPC software to replace/
enhance our existing SPC database developed in house.
We are looking for a comprehensive SPC software
capable of collecting a wide range of in-process and
product-end defect data for monitoring and analysis
purposes. I would like to know what's the most common
low and high end packages used in the electronics
industry.
I would appreciate anyone sharing this information
especially if you currently ultilize it in your
company.
Rgds,
Peter
__________________________________________________
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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 18:55:24 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Don Vischulis <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Final Audit/Inspection
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Dear Jana,
I've been lurking long enough. Just have to put my 2 cents in.
What if:
you are not in the commercial market, and
there are few companies capable of manufacturing your designs, and
the design specifications are required for the end product, and
it's a specialty product, so it is not IBM or Cisco volumes, hence your
vendor pool is small, and
the supplier has not been able to meet the yields they initially projected
for such designs, and
then on top of all that...it's flex...
Without regard to the board type - if you're trying to work with the
supplier (DFM/CE - partnership, etc.), you should sit down with them and
determine why the yields are below expectations. Based on that review there
may be several outcomes. Those outcomes include requests for design
changes, supplier process improvements, and/or an acceptance of the lower
yields with a possible price concession (if you want them to build more).
It's essential that one is aware of industry wide process capabilities
(benchmarking) for that product. There is competition in the low
volume/tight tolerance marketplace as well as the high volume market, and
all suppliers do not have identical capabilities.
A design can only be tweaked (real word? spelling?) or DFM'd within the
required technology design limits. If we designed for 100% yield, we could
not build the products. I think that's real life for many people. We
accept, and the manufacturer accepts, that the product yield will be greatly
less than 100%. Okay, that's life with these products.
This is where the Moonman is coming from with DFM/CE. The design process is
iterative. That is, you work with your supplier, built a prototype,
evaluate the results, and make adjustments. All parties must work to
understand the root causes for any problems. If a design is pushing the
capability envelope, concessions must be made.
So, then we go back to the basic question(s), what is reasonable to expect
at incoming - a)100% good product in the door, b) perform an AQL, c) perform
100% inspection, or d)other...?
From a quality perspective, the answer depends on what the end user finds
acceptable. You can expect 100% good product at the door but somebody has
to take steps to ensure that it really is 100% - even 6 sigma quality has a
few parts per billion defective. If you can't accept any defects, sampling
inspection is not acceptable. You must 100% inspect/test the incoming
product. Remember that AQL is the acronym for Acceptable Quality Level - by
definition the acceptable percentage of incoming defective product that is
acceptable to the production floor. Formulas exist to estimate the
percentage of defective product that the manufacturing floor will see given
the percent of defectives shipped from the supplier and the inspection plan
used at incoming inspection.
Perhaps something you've been saying has more impact than I realize, as I
think about it - contract negotiations. If the supplier signs up to meet
design/product criteria and doesn't, my options are:
a)change suppliers,
b)if a is not possible, negotiate incremental improvements with the goal of
meeting the specifications?
IMO one must do one or the other (unless the corporation enjoys suffering).
The process where one determines the best practices available is called
benchmarking . Once the best capabilities available are determined, the
choices are living with the status quo, working with the current supplier
base to improve capabilities, or changing suppliers. The caveat is that
perfection does not exist - the lowest absolute purchase price (not total
cost of ownership) and the most capable process do not often reside within
the same walls. When they do, the world beats a path to their door.
At what point/product type/product complexity does expecting the supplier to
provide 100% good parts fail or become unreasonable?
As you might surmise from the previous comments, this is a very complex
question with the cost of detecting defective material and the cost of
shipping defective material becoming part of the answer. This means that
the answer is individualized for each situation.
I hope that these additional mental morsels provide nourishment for you.
(Translated - I hope that this gives you some food for thought.)
Don Vischulis
[log in to unmask]
------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C19488.33C73180
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE></TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2712.300" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Dear Jana,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I've been lurking long =
enough. =20
Just have to put my 2 cents in.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR><FONT size=3D2>What if:<BR>you are not in the commercial =
market,=20
and<BR>there are few companies capable of manufacturing your designs, =
and<BR>the=20
design specifications are required for the end product, and<BR>it's a =
specialty=20
product, so it is not IBM or Cisco volumes, hence your<BR>vendor pool is =
small,=20
and<BR>the supplier has not been able to meet the yields they initially=20
projected<BR>for such designs, and<BR>then on top of all that...it's=20
flex...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff>Without regard to =
the board=20
type - if you're trying to work with the supplier (DFM/CE - partnership, =
etc.),=20
you should sit down with them and determine why the yields are below=20
expectations. Based on that review there may be several =
outcomes. =20
Those outcomes include requests for design changes, supplier process=20
improvements, and/or an acceptance of the lower yields with a possible =
price=20
concession (if you want them to build more). It's essential that =
one is=20
aware of industry wide process capabilities (benchmarking) for that=20
product. There is competition in the low volume/tight tolerance=20
marketplace as well as the high volume market, and all suppliers do not =
have=20
identical capabilities.</FONT></FONT><FONT size=3D2><BR><BR>A design can =
only be=20
tweaked (real word? spelling?) or DFM'd within the<BR>required =
technology design=20
limits. If we designed for 100% yield, we could<BR>not build the=20
products. I think that's real life for many people. =
We<BR>accept,=20
and the manufacturer accepts, that the product yield will be =
greatly<BR>less=20
than 100%. Okay, that's life with these products.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff>This is where the =
Moonman is=20
coming from with DFM/CE. The design process is iterative. =
That is,=20
you work with your supplier, built a prototype, evaluate the results, =
and make=20
adjustments. All parties must work to understand the root causes =
for any=20
problems. If a design is pushing the capability envelope, =
concessions must=20
be made.</FONT><BR><BR>So, then we go back to the basic question(s), =
what is=20
reasonable to expect<BR>at incoming - a)100% good product in the door, =
b)=20
perform an AQL, c) perform<BR>100% inspection, or =
d)other...?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff>From a quality =
perspective, the=20
answer depends on what the end user finds acceptable. You can =
expect 100%=20
good product at the door but somebody has to take steps to ensure that =
it really=20
is 100% - even 6 sigma quality has a few parts per billion =
defective. If=20
you can't accept any defects, sampling inspection is not =
acceptable. You=20
must 100% inspect/test the incoming product. Remember that AQL is =
the=20
acronym for Acceptable Quality Level - by definition the acceptable =
percentage=20
of incoming defective product that is acceptable to the production =
floor. =20
Formulas exist to estimate the percentage of defective product that the=20
manufacturing floor will see given the percent of defectives shipped =
from the=20
supplier and the inspection plan used at incoming=20
inspection.</FONT><BR><BR>Perhaps something you've been saying has more =
impact=20
than I realize, as I<BR>think about it - contract negotiations. If =
the=20
supplier signs up to meet<BR>design/product criteria and doesn't, my =
options=20
are:<BR>a)change suppliers,<BR>b)if a is not possible, negotiate =
incremental=20
improvements with the goal of<BR>meeting the =
specifications?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff>IMO one must do =
one or the=20
other (unless the corporation enjoys suffering). The process where =
one=20
determines the best practices available is called benchmarking . =
Once the=20
best capabilities available are determined, the choices are living =
with the=20
status quo, working with the current supplier base to improve =
capabilities, or=20
changing suppliers. The caveat is that perfection does not exist - =
the=20
lowest absolute purchase price (not total cost of ownership) and the =
most=20
capable process do not often reside within the same walls. When =
they do,=20
the world beats a path to their door.</FONT><BR><BR>At what =
point/product=20
type/product complexity does expecting the supplier to<BR>provide 100% =
good=20
parts fail or become unreasonable?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff>As you might =
surmise from the=20
previous comments, this is a very complex question with the cost of =
detecting=20
defective material and the cost of shipping defective material becoming =
part of=20
the answer. This means that the answer is individualized for each=20
situation.</FONT><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff>I hope that these =
additional=20
mental morsels provide nourishment for you. (Translated - I hope =
that this=20
gives you some food for thought.)</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Don =
Vischulis</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A></FONT></DIV=
></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 17:06:50 -0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Darrel Therriault <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: INCEP Technologies, Inc.
Subject: Solder Stencil
MIME-Version: 1.0
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TechNet,
What considerations are used for selecting the thickness and aperature
of a solder stencil? I would guess it has to do with solder volume and
maybe proximity/spacing, but are there other things considered as well?
Are there any "rules of thumb" or guidelines for making this selection
or standards?
All comments and preferences appreciated.
DT
--
Darrel Therriault
VP, Mfg. Operations
INCEP Technologies, Inc
(858)547-9925 223
[log in to unmask]
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 09:44:20 +0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "<Peter George Duncan>" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SMT Component Loss Percentages
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Dave,
Expected losses depend on a number of factors:-
1. If you don't leave a leader tape on reels each time you unload from the
machine, you will lose the number of components contained in the lead-in
distance. This is typically about 7 inches - divide by the component pitch
on the tape and you have your attrition qty for every time you re-load the
reel to the machine.
2. Handling - if your IC's, etc are well handled and in good condition,
there should be very little or no attrition. If badly handled or of poor
quality, the machine may reject any number of components on the grounds of
poor lead alignment. Most machines just chuck rejects down a chute, where
they are further damaged, but it is possible to arrange for the rejects to
be collected nicely without further damage. These can then be inspected and
may be useable if hand soldered, for example instead - the economy of this
depends on component cost/availability versus recovery/inspection/recycling
costs.
3. First article inspection - assembly houses usually do a dummy run the
first time they build a board to check and fine tune the P&P programming.
This uses one complete set of components of that board, which is often
populated onto a PCB wrapped in sticky film. The components stick to the
film, but the PCB itself is not affected. For aerospace/military boards
where components are expensive, the active components are recovered, but
the passives are usually not worth the cost of recovery so are lost.
P&P attrition is almost a case of "how long is a piece of string", but the
above may help you to gauge rougly how many extra components you will have
to allow for, depending on your situation. With a little planning and
forethought, very few components need be lost, but the potential to lose
quite a lot is there if care isn't taken and you don't go through the
process steps in advance to see where losses can occur.
Good Luck!
Peter Duncan
Dave Snyder
<[log in to unmask] To: [log in to unmask]
COM> cc: (bcc: DUNCAN Peter/Asst Prin Engr/ST
Sent by: Aero/ST Group)
TechNet Subject: [TN] SMT Component Loss Percentages
<[log in to unmask]
ORG>
01/03/02
03:43 AM
Please
respond to
"TechNet
E-Mail
Forum."
What is the expected part loss in the pick and place process? I assume the
percentages are different depending on the type of part and size. It's
probably is much better if the lots are very large, however we manufacture
board assemblies in small lots (50-200). Is there an IPC document that
lists
"normal" levels or guidelines? Any help would be greatly appreciated, even
wild guesses.
Thanks
Dave Snyder
Manufacturing Engineering Manager
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 10:14:47 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "d. terstegge" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Solder Stencil
MIME-Version: 1.0 (Generated by NET-TEL Mailguard SMTP version 4.0.0.22)
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Hi Darrel,
One of the most important issues in stencil design, especially for =
fine-pitch applications, is the width of the aperture divided by the =
thickness of the foil. This value should not be smaller than about 1.7, as =
this would increase the risk that the solderpaste sticks into the =
apertures instead of releasing onto the pads.
Another factor to consider is the type of squeegee you're using. Polyuretha=
ne squeegees, especially the softer ones, give some "scooping out" =
resulting in a thinner deposit than metal blades.=20
Daan Terstegge
SMT Centre
Thales Communications
Unclassified mail
Personal Website: http://www.smtinfo.net =20
>>> Darrel Therriault <[log in to unmask]> 01/04 2:06 am >>>
TechNet,
What considerations are used for selecting the thickness and aperature
of a solder stencil? I would guess it has to do with solder volume and
maybe proximity/spacing, but are there other things considered as well?
Are there any "rules of thumb" or guidelines for making this selection
or standards?
All comments and preferences appreciated.
DT
--
Darrel Therriault
VP, Mfg. Operations
INCEP Technologies, Inc
(858)547-9925 223
[log in to unmask]
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 11:44:43 +0200
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Brian Ellis <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Ultrasonic Cleaning
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Hi all,
Please let me add another point that no one has yet mentioned, a little
bit more fundamental. How do ultrasonics work? The transducer, when
moving "upwards" tries to compress an incompressible liquid and thus
displaces it. When moving "downwards", it is easier to create a vacuum
bubble, called a cavity, than to move the whole mass of liquid. These
cavities form where there is a nucleus, which may be any foreign
molecule but is hopefully the a part of the surface to be cleaned. At
the next compression, the cavity does not collapse (why, I know not: it
is like as if the wave passed through a diode), so the cavity gets
larger and larger with each cycle of compression and decompression. Once
it reaches a critical size, it implodes in a nanosecond, compressing the
vapours it contains adiabatically to an astronomically high temperature
(thousands of degrees). This rise in temperature is, of course,
dissipated instantaneously but in so doing, creates an intense shock
wave, which is what enhances the cleaning action of the solvent.
With a fixed frequency system, the waveform of the shock is a spike,
usually repetitive, which is a subharmonic of the U/S frequency and
contains harmonics up to the oscillator frequency, so that it can
augment resonance where a bonding wire happens to have a fundamental or
harmonic natural frequency of approximately the same value. With a
sliding frequency oscillator or multi-frequency system, the implosion of
the cavitation happens at pseudo-random times, so augmented resonance
due to the cavitation will occur less frequently, but it will still
happen, even though the results may be less disastrous.
This explanation also shows why the solvent must be degassed before U/S
cleaning can be effective. If there is a gas molecule dissolved, it will
form a nucleus which will cause cavitation at a random position in the
bath, but usually well away from the articles being cleaned. In the case
of "traditional" halogenated solvents in a vapour degreaser, the
combination of boiling and the U/S cavitation itself will promote
degassing, so that after, say, one hour, the efficiency will be at its
highest. Nevertheless, dissolved dirt will also be deleterious, for the
same reason, so the solvent in the cold tank must always be kept as
clean as possible by an adequate distillation rate. Fluorinated
solvents, however, may dissolve oxygen from the air more readily than
other types and require better degassing.
Water and aqueous solutions are much more difficult to degas, because
the higher surface tension tends to cause the gas bubbles to not escape.
Practical experience has shown that introducing an external degasser
into the DI water stream feeding an ultrasonic tank will increase the
cleaning efficiency (and speed of cleaning) very remarkably. At the same
time, because there is no oxygen or CO2 dissolved, ferrous metals will
not rust in the bath.
In practice, I concur there is ALWAYS a risk of U/S cleaning where there
are components with unsupported wires of a length which may resonate
(i.e. in a cavity). This may include many component types and I have had
more failures with quartz crystals than any other component type. I
don't know whether this is due to the high-Q resonance of the crystals
themselves being set off by a harmonic of the U/S frequency or
cavitation, or the wire soldered to the metallisation resonating. Either
is plausible. Post mortem examination showed the metallisation to be
torn away round the joint. Cleaning without U/S caused no problems. I've
also had a few failures of transistors in TO-18 and TO-5 cases: not
sufficient in number to warrant action and it could be that they were
components that would fail in a short time, anyway. However, we were
afraid that good components may be weakened, so we stopped U/S cleaning
assemblies. I agree that glob-topped components and those otherwise
fully encapsulated should be safe. I have also had a very insidious
case. A client called me in complaining that a certain large ceramic
multilayer capacitor was failing in service. This was before SMD and the
component was, if you like, like a large SMD one with wires soldered at
either end and subsequently encapsulated in a very thin layer of resin.
Examination of the returned assemblies showed a number of these
capacitors were missing a slice of their body, reducing the capacity
pro-rata. My client and I conducted systematic tests to try and find a
cause (the manufacturer was not able to help). We found it in the
ultrasonic cleaner. In fact, almost all the capacitors cleaved, but they
were held together by the metallisation at each end. Only a microscopic
examination revealed the presence of an externally visible crack, with
an estimated width of < 1 um. In time, mechanical transportation
vibration, thermal cycling or whatever caused the metallisation to fail,
reducing the capacity and causing the circuit to malfunction. I
theorised that the capacitor was of a physical size to correspond with a
quarter wavelength of the U/S frequency in the solvent and was therefore
set into oscillation in such a way that the cleavage planes were
stressed. By putting capacitors in the bath in a certain orientation, we
were able to get complete disintegration in about one hour, showing
conclusively that the U/S was responsible, as there was no problem with
the oscillator switched off in the same conditions.
I have always advised my clients that they should use U/S ONLY if they
could PROVE that no damage to any component resulted from long and
systematic testing which would include thermal cycling and shock and
vibration testing, as well as field failure analyses. This is something
that cannot be forecast with precision: some clients clean "forbidden
components" with U/S very successfully: others using the same components
may not be able to, even though their cleaning machines are identical. I
recently visited a client in the Far East who was cleaning silicon
strain gauge diaphragms. He had been using U/S in a halogenated solvent
very successfully for years. A new model, slightly smaller and thinner,
simply shattered, to his total surprise, because in reality it was more
mechanically robust!
IMHO, the answer is a lemon: you have to suck it and see to find out how
sour it is.
FWIW
Brian
Vinit Verma wrote:
>
> Hi Technetters,
>
> I am presently evaluating post reflow PCB cleaning machines, both aqueous
> and ultrasonic. I have a concern regarding ultrasonic cleaning. Read
> somewhere that the ultrasonic frequencies can have an effect on the wire
> bonds inside the packaging. Does anyone have any idea of this?
>
> Thanks in anticipation.
>
> Regards
> Vinit Verma
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 16:37:54 +0530
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Vinit Verma <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Rework Station
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi all,
I am presently evaluating BGA rework machine. I would be grateful if, anyone
who is using the same, could provide me their feedback regarding their
respective equipment, regarding the performance, reliability, accuracy, ease
of operation, nozzle reliability, nozzle costs, profile accurcy, software,
and any other factor which you feel is important.
I am also looking at this equipment for prototyping.
Thanks in anticipation.
Regards
Vinit Verma
Flextronics Technologies (India) Pvt. Ltd.
E-Mail : [log in to unmask]
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 05:10:07 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Rework Station
X-To: Vinit Verma <[log in to unmask]>
Started out using SRT's. Used to them from the earlier models as 1000 (still
one of my favorites maybe because of the pain of having to tweak the
mechanisms so often - maybe not that often - but I like making improvement).
Advanced with them through semi-automatic systems and software upgrades.
Good stuff.
However, I really like the newest Air-Vac stuff for BGA and other as solder
fountains with air compression to clean holes before device reinsertion
(saved my skinny butt many times). This stuff is clean, straightforward,
compact, and easy to learn and use. That's the most important part of the
equation. Operators cannot be overwhelmed by inconsistencies, as you well
know. They get frustrated and become creative, no matter what rules may be
imposed. Sometimes they come up with good answers, but that's not their
primary responsibiltiy. Rework is.
MoonMan
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 05:11:50 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Final Audit/Inspection
X-To: Don Vischulis <[log in to unmask]>
Don,
I wish I could have said it that well.
Earl
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 07:46:51 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Dieselberg, Ron" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: BEFORE ISO
MIME-Version: 1.0
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As long as it's free sign me up for a copy too, but don't be too long
getting it into print because at my advanced age the clock is ticking more
quickly!
Who besides Raby remembers A10509300?
I noticed when I looked up at you this morning that someone had taken a bite
out of you Mr. MoonMan. Hope you recover by next month for my 70th.
Ron Dieselberg
Trainer/Auditor
CMC ELECTRONICS
CINCINNATI
[log in to unmask]
-----Original Message-----
From: Earl Moon [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 13:38 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] BEFORE ISO
Dan,
Thanks and I too remember the good old days and the
recitations and paper
piling higher that Everest. Still did some good work though.
Still work a
lot with 883 and some of those test methods never changed,
nor did they have
to. Some could use a little improvement like 2020.
Yeh, I'm having so much fun I'm going to give away the first
3000 copies of
my book. Maybe, I'll rethink that one.
Enjoy Dan,
Earl
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charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
5.5.2652.35">
<TITLE>RE: [TN] BEFORE ISO</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">As long as it's free sign me up for a =
copy too, but don't be too long getting it into print because at my =
advanced age the clock is ticking more quickly!</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Who besides Raby remembers =
A10509300?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I noticed when I looked up at you =
this morning that someone had taken a bite out of you Mr. MoonMan. Hope =
you recover by next month for my 70</FONT><SUP><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">th</FONT></SUP><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Ron Dieselberg</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Trainer/Auditor</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">CMC ELECTRONICS</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">CINCINNATI</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">[log in to unmask]</FONT>
</P>
<UL><UL>
<P><A NAME=3D"_MailData"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">-----Original =
Message-----</FONT></A>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">From: Earl Moon [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]</A>]</FONT></=
B>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Sent: </FONT></B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Thursday, January 03, 2002 13:38 PM</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">To: </FONT></B> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">[log in to unmask]</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Subject: </FONT>=
</B> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Re: [TN] BEFORE ISO</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Dan,</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Thanks and I too remember the good old =
days and the recitations and paper</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">piling higher that Everest. Still did =
some good work though. Still work a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">lot with 883 and some of those test =
methods never changed, nor did they have</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">to. Some could use a little =
improvement like 2020.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Yeh, I'm having so much fun I'm going =
to give away the first 3000 copies of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">my book. Maybe, I'll rethink that =
one.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Enjoy Dan,</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Earl</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">---------------------------------------------------------=
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 06:58:21 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: BEFORE ISO
X-To: Ron Dieselberg <[log in to unmask]>
Ron,
You and I are as old as dirt and no matter how many bites are taken, there's
still the left over dust and a little bone. Hell, not that you need it, you
can have all I've forgotten and can remember (the "book") for free. Wish I
could remember half of that and what you have done. It's guys like you and
Raby who have made it all happen.
The MoonMan will be back whole next month, as I know YOU will.
MoonMan
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 08:53:27 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Safavi-Bayat Shahed <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Solder Stencil
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Darrel,
Try this
http://www.hybridca.com/hybrid_orderguide.htm
-----Original Message-----
From: Darrel Therriault [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 8:07 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Solder Stencil
TechNet,
What considerations are used for selecting the thickness and aperature
of a solder stencil? I would guess it has to do with solder volume and
maybe proximity/spacing, but are there other things considered as well?
Are there any "rules of thumb" or guidelines for making this selection
or standards?
All comments and preferences appreciated.
DT
--
Darrel Therriault
VP, Mfg. Operations
INCEP Technologies, Inc
(858)547-9925 223
[log in to unmask]
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 09:07:11 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: David Schaefer <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Solder Stencil
X-To: [log in to unmask]
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Darrel,
IPC-7525 Stencil Design Guidelines is the official specification (www.ipc.o=
rg).
I'd also recommend checking out the Hybrid Circuits Website (www.hybridca.c=
om),
or contacting the folks at Hybrid - great service and technical assistance =
available
from these folks.
Dave Schaefer Voice: (204)478-8059
Senior PCB Designer FAX: (204)942-3001
Symbol Technologies Email: [log in to unmask]
1000 Waverley Street =20
Winnipeg, MB R3T 0P3 =20
>>> [log in to unmask] 01/04/02 07:53AM >>>
Darrel,
Try this
http://www.hybridca.com/hybrid_orderguide.htm
-----Original Message-----
From: Darrel Therriault [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 8:07 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Solder Stencil
TechNet,
What considerations are used for selecting the thickness and aperature
of a solder stencil? I would guess it has to do with solder volume and
maybe proximity/spacing, but are there other things considered as well?
Are there any "rules of thumb" or guidelines for making this selection
or standards?
All comments and preferences appreciated.
DT
--
Darrel Therriault
VP, Mfg. Operations
INCEP Technologies, Inc
(858)547-9925 223
[log in to unmask]
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1"=
>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY style=3D"MARGIN-TOP: 2px; FONT: 8pt MS Sans Serif; MARGIN-LEFT: =
2px">
<DIV><FONT size=3D1>Darrel,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1>IPC-7525 Stencil Design Guidelines is the official=20
specification (<A href=3D"http://www.ipc.org">www.ipc.org</A>).</FONT></DIV=
>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1>I'd also recommend checking out the Hybrid Circuits =
Website=20
(<A href=3D"http://www.hybridca.com">www.hybridca.com</A>),</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1>or contacting the folks at Hybrid - great service =
and=20
technical assistance available</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1>from these folks.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Dave=20
Schaefer &=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; =20
Voice: (204)478-8059<BR>Senior PCB=20
Designer &=
nbsp; =20
FAX: (204)942-3001<BR>Symbol=20
Technologies &nb=
sp; =20
Email: <A href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A> =
<BR>1000=20
Waverley=20
Street &nb=
sp; =20
<BR>Winnipeg, MB R3T 0P3 </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR>>>> [log in to unmask] 01/04/02 07:53AM=20
>>><BR>Darrel,<BR>Try this<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.hybridca.com/hybrid_orderguide.htm">http://www.hybridca.=
com/hybrid_orderguide.htm</A><BR>-----Original=20
Message-----<BR>From: Darrel Therriault [<A=20
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]]">mailto:[log in to unmask]]</A><BR=
>Sent:=20
Thursday, January 03, 2002 8:07 PM<BR>To: [log in to unmask]<BR>Subject: =
[TN]=20
Solder Stencil<BR><BR><BR>TechNet,<BR><BR>What considerations are used =
for=20
selecting the thickness and aperature<BR>of a solder stencil? I =
would=20
guess it has to do with solder volume and<BR>maybe proximity/spacing, but =
are=20
there other things considered as well?<BR>Are there any "rules of thumb" =
or=20
guidelines for making this selection<BR>or standards?<BR><BR>All comments =
and=20
preferences appreciated.<BR><BR>DT<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>--<BR>Darrel=20
Therriault<BR>VP, Mfg. Operations<BR>INCEP Technologies, Inc<BR>(858)547-99=
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 09:16:03 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Vivari, John" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Solder Stencil
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Darrel,
When procuring a stencil I use the following guidelines. As usual, there
may be exceptions for each particular product and stencil type.
Global stencil thickness of 0.006" for products with
minimum aperture dimension of 0.009" or larger.
Global stencil thickness of 0.005" for products with
minimum aperture dimension of 0.0075" or larger.
Step etch from 0.006" or 0.005" for individual smaller
aperture sets down to:
0.004" for 0.006" and larger apertures and
0.003" for 0.0045" and larger apertures and
0.002" for 0.003" and larger apertures.
Of note, with electroform stencils, thickness can be specified in odd values
(ex: 0.0034") and can be customized to your aperture dimensions. The
advantage here is maximum paste volume due to increased stencil thickness
and improved paste release from nickel.
Step etch regions have a minimum clearance of 0.1" from the nearest small
aperture to the edge of the step etch to avoid
any transition region printing effects. Large pads are not as sensitive to
the transition and related pad height variation
and should not be worried about if near the step edge.
My goal is to have the minimum aperture dimension be no less than 1.5 times
the stencil thickness. This number
(the aspect ratio) was first introduced due to limits in the chemical
etching process but remains a good value for
ensuring complete paste release (no paste left in aperture).
I prefer a foil thickness of 0.005" or thicker to minimize imprinting of
board features into the foil. With 0.004"
foil and thinner, the tendency to deform and conform to the circuit surface
increases dramatically.
Hope this helps,
John Vivari
Technical Service Engineer
EFD Inc.
Ph: 401-333-3800 x2204
Fx: 401-333-4954
------_=_NextPart_001_01C1952A.578ADBDF
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
5.5.2653.12">
<TITLE>Re: Solder Stencil</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Darrel,</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>When procuring a stencil I use the following =
guidelines. As usual, there may be exceptions for each particular =
product and stencil type.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Global stencil thickness of 0.006" for products =
with </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>minimum aperture dimension of 0.009" or =
larger.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Global stencil thickness of 0.005" for products =
with </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>minimum aperture dimension of 0.0075" or =
larger.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Step etch from 0.006" or 0.005" for =
individual smaller </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>aperture sets down to:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>0.004" for 0.006" and larger apertures and =
</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>0.003" for 0.0045" and larger apertures =
and </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>0.002" for 0.003" and larger =
apertures.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Of note, with electroform stencils, thickness can be =
specified in odd values (ex: 0.0034") and can be customized to =
your aperture dimensions. The advantage here is maximum paste =
volume due to increased stencil thickness and improved paste release =
from nickel.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Step etch regions have a minimum clearance of =
0.1" from the nearest small aperture to the edge of the step etch =
to avoid</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>any transition region printing effects. Large =
pads are not as sensitive to the transition and related pad height =
variation</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>and should not be worried about if near the step =
edge.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>My goal is to have the minimum aperture dimension be =
no less than 1.5 times the stencil thickness. This number</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>(the aspect ratio) was first introduced due to =
limits in the chemical etching process but remains a good value =
for</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>ensuring complete paste release (no paste left in =
aperture).</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I prefer a foil thickness of 0.005" or thicker =
to minimize imprinting of board features into the foil. With =
0.004" </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>foil and thinner, the tendency to deform and conform =
to the circuit surface increases dramatically.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Hope this helps,</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>John Vivari</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Technical Service Engineer</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>EFD Inc.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Ph: 401-333-3800 x2204</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Fx: 401-333-4954</FONT>
</P>
</BODY>
</HTML>
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 09:37:36 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Gary Camac <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SPC software package selection
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Peter,
Check the archives around the first part of Nov.,2001. I believe you will
find some information on this subject.
Gary
----- Original Message -----
From: peter lee <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 5:52 PM
Subject: [TN] SPC software package selection
> Hello technetters,
>
> This is an old topic but I would like to review and
> get your inputs.
>
> I am sourcing a 3rd party SPC software to replace/
> enhance our existing SPC database developed in house.
> We are looking for a comprehensive SPC software
> capable of collecting a wide range of in-process and
> product-end defect data for monitoring and analysis
> purposes. I would like to know what's the most common
> low and high end packages used in the electronics
> industry.
>
> I would appreciate anyone sharing this information
> especially if you currently ultilize it in your
> company.
>
> Rgds,
> Peter
>
> __________________________________________________
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 08:27:43 -0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Fred Lovingier <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SMT Component Loss Percentages
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-----Original Message-----
From: <Peter George Duncan> [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 5:44 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] SMT Component Loss Percentages
Dave,
Expected losses depend on a number of factors:-
1. If you don't leave a leader tape on reels each time you unload from the
machine, you will lose the number of components contained in the lead-in
distance. This is typically about 7 inches - divide by the component pitch
on the tape and you have your attrition qty for every time you re-load the
reel to the machine.
2. Handling - if your IC's, etc are well handled and in good condition,
there should be very little or no attrition. If badly handled or of poor
quality, the machine may reject any number of components on the grounds of
poor lead alignment. Most machines just chuck rejects down a chute, where
they are further damaged, but it is possible to arrange for the rejects to
be collected nicely without further damage. These can then be inspected and
may be useable if hand soldered, for example instead - the economy of this
depends on component cost/availability versus recovery/inspection/recycling
costs.
3. First article inspection - assembly houses usually do a dummy run the
first time they build a board to check and fine tune the P&P programming.
This uses one complete set of components of that board, which is often
populated onto a PCB wrapped in sticky film. The components stick to the
film, but the PCB itself is not affected. For aerospace/military boards
where components are expensive, the active components are recovered, but
the passives are usually not worth the cost of recovery so are lost.
P&P attrition is almost a case of "how long is a piece of string", but the
above may help you to gauge rougly how many extra components you will have
to allow for, depending on your situation. With a little planning and
forethought, very few components need be lost, but the potential to lose
quite a lot is there if care isn't taken and you don't go through the
process steps in advance to see where losses can occur.
Good Luck!
Peter Duncan
Dave Snyder
<[log in to unmask] To: [log in to unmask]
COM> cc: (bcc: DUNCAN Peter/Asst
Prin Engr/ST
Sent by: Aero/ST Group)
TechNet Subject: [TN] SMT Component
Loss Percentages
<[log in to unmask]
ORG>
01/03/02
03:43 AM
Please
respond to
"TechNet
E-Mail
Forum."
What is the expected part loss in the pick and place process? I assume the
percentages are different depending on the type of part and size. It's
probably is much better if the lots are very large, however we manufacture
board assemblies in small lots (50-200). Is there an IPC document that
lists
"normal" levels or guidelines? Any help would be greatly appreciated, even
wild guesses.
Thanks
Dave Snyder
Manufacturing Engineering Manager
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 17:35:37 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "d. terstegge" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Final Audit/Inspection
MIME-Version: 1.0 (Generated by NET-TEL Mailguard SMTP version 4.0.0.22)
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Hi Jana,
Couldn't find anything detailed about the efficiency of visual inspection, =
although the article at http://www.circuitsassembly.com/online/2001/08/0108=
msl.htm refers to such studies. A few lines copied from this article:
"Human inspection's greatest drawback lies in the inspectors themselves.
Studies have shown the inability of people to consistently and
objectively apply an inspection criterion over time. In one study, the
same set of boards was passed in front of the same operators multiple
times; the operators' results agreed with their own previous results
only 20 to 30 percent of the time. Variation in results between
operators was even greater."
I guess it's the kind of study that's not too difficult to setup for your =
own process.
Daan Terstegge
SMT Centre
Thales Communications
Unclassified mail
Personal Website: http://www.smtinfo.net
>>> Jana Carraway <[log in to unmask]> 01/03 6:51 pm >>>
Daan or others,
Could anyone refer me to articles, studies, etc. that demonstrate the
inefficiency of visual inspection and, if I remember correctly, the drop =
in
efficiency over time? I'm working on incoming inspection of bare
substrates - possibly an AQL type sampling, but have many concerns =
regarding
supplier lot quality, visual inspection efficiency, and product quality
requirements. Earl and I have been chatting about this for a bit now.
Another question, since I have your rapt attention... is it possible to
statistically equate lot quality (yield) to outgoing quality (yield)? In
other words, the supplier would have to produce product at xx% yield to =
meet
incoming requirement of yy% yield?
Best of the New Year to you all,
Jana Carraway
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of d. terstegge
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 7:22 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Final Audit/Inspection
Hi Olivia,
You should be very happy if your inspection people catch more than 50% of
the defects. The remainder will simply be overlooked. This is not an
opinion, but it's a proven fact !!
It is just not possible to inspect quality into the product, instead you
should focus on the assembly process.
B.T.W. on my website I have some nice software available (it's a free beta
version) that may be helpfull for you with the inspection of the pcb's =
after
pick&place machine. The URL is
http://www.smtinfo.net/smtmaestro/smtmaestro.html=20
Daan Terstegge
SMT Centre
Thales Communications
Unclassified mail
>>> Olivia Mc Dermott <[log in to unmask]> 01/03 4:01 pm >>>
We do have inspection points throughout the process. The problem is they =
are
also missing defects and letting them through to final inspection.I =
wondered
if there is a direct instruction on inspecting.
1. you do this
2. you do this.
>From: Kathy Kuhlow <[log in to unmask]>
>Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: [TN] Final Audit/Inspection
>Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 08:49:32 -0600
>
>I would first start with some in-process sampling so you can pinpoint =
what
>types of defects the process is currently producing. Do you see more
>missing components from surface mount or do you have a problem withe =
solder
>shorts on the solder side because of wave issues or snapping problems.
>All to many organizations use a final inspection as a safety net. In my
>dream world I would have no one doing final inspection but bring it back =
to
>the process and do the inspection at the process through auditing by both
>production and quality personnel so immediate feedback can be accomplished=
.
> Otherwise you get data that is out of date and you can't really take
>effective corrective actions, especially if your world is as a CM or =
small
>run lots.
>
>If you must do a final inspection then we typically start with a complete
>part verification (value, polarity, AVL check) than solder (quality,
>quantity, lead placement) and finally any specific customer
>instructions(labeling, rev add, etc).
>
>Kathy
><< TEXT.htm >>
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 08:39:12 -0800
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Ahne Oosterhof <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Solder Stencil
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Good morning Darrell,
The following is an answer I have given a while ago to a circuit board
designer
asking almost the same question you are asking. And yes, the aperture size
(volume) is determined by the need for solderpaste to attach the component
to
the board (between component and pad and to produce the required / desired
fillet).
IPC-7525 is a set of Guide Lines, not a spec. So a company that starts from
scratch can use these to set up their library for aperture dimensions.
However, remember, these are Guide Lines. The reason they are not called a
Specification is that the required aperture dimensions can vary
significantly depending on many parameters, e.g. pad size, pad finish,
solder type (ball dimensions, amount of solids), squeegee type, squeegee
pressure, squeegee speed, squeegee angle, temperature, operator habits (or
lack thereof), and probably a few more.
Because of all these variables, we cannot "design" the stencil for the
customer. It is the cooperation between the Manufacturing Engineer (who
knows all the process details) and the stencil maker (who can provide
advise) that can lead to a stencil which will give the desired results.
All the above is especially difficult when dealing with contract assemblers.
From them we get a great variety of differing data knowing less about the
details that impact stencil design.
In the case of captive assemblers, the library is known, as are the process
details and even the board can be known. Under those conditions and with
cooperation between the players excellent results can be obtained. The best
results we know of resulted in placing 7,000,000 bricks of solder with zero
errors -- that is real quality!! (remember that 50 dpmo is considered
worldclass!)
If you are working as a board design engineer, it is
desirable to set up a standard design procedure and maybe even to have your
own library based on IPC-7525. I believe this to be possible and even an
advantage for you in your market place.
Regards, Ahne
One more example of potential trouble:
Customer wanted a stencil for a board, which had high current runs. It
turned out that the solder mask openings were larger than normal and the fat
runs were connected to the surface mount pads (or sometimes the pads were
part
of the run) causing insufficient solder. Such a problem is next to
impossible
to predict by the stencil manufacturer.
Ahne.
A-Laser, Inc.
503-641-9428
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Darrel Therriault
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 17:07
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Solder Stencil
TechNet,
What considerations are used for selecting the thickness and aperature
of a solder stencil? I would guess it has to do with solder volume and
maybe proximity/spacing, but are there other things considered as well?
Are there any "rules of thumb" or guidelines for making this selection
or standards?
All comments and preferences appreciated.
DT
--
Darrel Therriault
VP, Mfg. Operations
INCEP Technologies, Inc
(858)547-9925 223
[log in to unmask]
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 08:45:28 -0800
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Subject: un subscribe
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Fred Lovingier
Application Specialist
SP Precision International, Ltd.
1-800-PALLETT (725-5388)
www.spprecision.com
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 11:01:28 -0600
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From: Shannon Stutzman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Copper
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Hello everyone;
I am looking for a chart or an equation that will allow me to find the =
copper thickness needed in relation to current. I have the chart that is =
given by IPC but this chart dose not give current ranges or copper =
thicknesses high enough for my application. I need to how thick of copper =
to use for 80 amps and what the minimum trace width that can be used. If =
any of you have any information on this I would appreciate it.
Thank you.
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 11:10:33 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Final Audit/Inspection
X-To: [log in to unmask]
the following is my thesis so thanks Daan as usual:
The second view is that test and inspection provide a measure of the
effectiveness of the production process. Rather than simply netting
defective units as they go by, the focus is on improving the process such
that fewer defective units are produced in the first place. The key
difference is the perception and use of test/inspection as a feedback tool.
This difference is subtle, yet powerful, with far-reaching economic
implications, and it requires a holistic view of the manufacturing process
and an understanding of the synergy between process, inspection and test.
Earl
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 09:27:18 -0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Tuan Bui <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Rework Station
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Vinit,
Rework machine is nothing more than an expensive heat gun. They come in all
shapes and models. Unless these bells and whistles
meet your requirements than the investment is worthwhile. We currently
using an Air-Vac DRS22 for the last 7 years in our prototype shop and it
can accommodates all our reworks with advanced packages (BGA,, LGA, micro
BGA, flip-chip, CSP...). Air-Vac has proven its reliablity and profile
accuracy to us. We currently also looking at their newer model DRS 24 and
it has improved the bottom heating plate to handle larger assemblies.
Tuan.
Conexant Sys. Inc.
Vinit Verma
<[log in to unmask] To: [log in to unmask]
ONICS.COM> cc:
Sent by: TechNet Subject: [TN] Rework Station
<[log in to unmask]>
01/04/02 03:07 AM
Please respond to
"TechNet E-Mail
Forum."
Hi all,
I am presently evaluating BGA rework machine. I would be grateful if,
anyone
who is using the same, could provide me their feedback regarding their
respective equipment, regarding the performance, reliability, accuracy,
ease
of operation, nozzle reliability, nozzle costs, profile accurcy, software,
and any other factor which you feel is important.
I am also looking at this equipment for prototyping.
Thanks in anticipation.
Regards
Vinit Verma
Flextronics Technologies (India) Pvt. Ltd.
E-Mail : [log in to unmask]
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 11:38:05 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Genny Gibbard <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Copper
MIME-Version: 1.0
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In the August 1997 issue of Printed Circuit Design there was a Designer's
Viewpoint column that had a conversion chart for finished trace widths to
standard wire gauges. It has copper weights of 1/2, 1, and 2oz related to
AWG ratings ranging from #39 down to #10. For instance, to get the
equivalent of AWG #10 in a 2oz non plated trace, it must be 0.472429" wide,
for a plated trace, 0.344745". It also gives the resistance/inch for 20, 50
and 75 degrees celcius.
It doesn't give current carrying capability, but you can usually get current
ratings of AWG wires. Do you have to do 80A all in one trace? Can you run
some wires in parallel with the trace on the board?
-----Original Message-----
From: Shannon Stutzman [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: January 4, 2002 11:01 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Copper
Hello everyone;
I am looking for a chart or an equation that will allow me to find the
copper thickness needed in relation to current. I have the chart that is
given by IPC but this chart dose not give current ranges or copper
thicknesses high enough for my application. I need to how thick of copper
to use for 80 amps and what the minimum trace width that can be used. If
any of you have any information on this I would appreciate it.
Thank you.
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 09:38:25 -0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Zawicki <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Copper
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Hi Shannon,
I have been looking for the same information for some time and have come up
dry. So, you know where you can relay it. One point that needs to be added
is temperature rise.
EZ
-----Original Message-----
From: Shannon Stutzman [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 9:01 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Copper
Hello everyone;
I am looking for a chart or an equation that will allow me to find the
copper thickness needed in relation to current. I have the chart that is
given by IPC but this chart dose not give current ranges or copper
thicknesses high enough for my application. I need to how thick of copper
to use for 80 amps and what the minimum trace width that can be used. If
any of you have any information on this I would appreciate it.
Thank you.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Hi Shannon,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>I have been looking for the same information for =
some time and have come up dry. So, you know where you can relay it. =
One point that needs to be added is temperature rise.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>EZ</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Shannon Stutzman [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]</A>=
]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 9:01 AM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: [log in to unmask]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: [TN] Copper</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Hello everyone;</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I am looking for a chart or an equation that will =
allow me to find the copper thickness needed in relation to =
current. I have the chart that is given by IPC but this chart =
dose not give current ranges or copper thicknesses high enough for my =
application. I need to how thick of copper to use for 80 amps and =
what the minimum trace width that can be used. If any of you have =
any information on this I would appreciate it.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Thank you.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>---------------------------------------------------------------=
------------------</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC =
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 11:45:41 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Shannon Stutzman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Copper
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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My main power traces will be carrying a maximum of 20 amps it is the =
ground return that must carry the full load. We are trying to avoid a =
large ground plane.
>>> [log in to unmask] 01/04/02 11:38AM >>>
In the August 1997 issue of Printed Circuit Design there was a Designer's
Viewpoint column that had a conversion chart for finished trace widths to
standard wire gauges. It has copper weights of 1/2, 1, and 2oz related to
AWG ratings ranging from #39 down to #10. For instance, to get the
equivalent of AWG #10 in a 2oz non plated trace, it must be 0.472429" =
wide,
for a plated trace, 0.344745". It also gives the resistance/inch for 20, =
50
and 75 degrees celcius.
It doesn't give current carrying capability, but you can usually get =
current
ratings of AWG wires. Do you have to do 80A all in one trace? Can you =
run
some wires in parallel with the trace on the board?
-----Original Message-----
From: Shannon Stutzman [mailto:[log in to unmask]]=20
Sent: January 4, 2002 11:01 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Copper
Hello everyone;
I am looking for a chart or an equation that will allow me to find the
copper thickness needed in relation to current. I have the chart that is
given by IPC but this chart dose not give current ranges or copper
thicknesses high enough for my application. I need to how thick of copper
to use for 80 amps and what the minimum trace width that can be used. If
any of you have any information on this I would appreciate it.
Thank you.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 12:57:26 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: PURE DFM/CE
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Steve,
I don't see my sent images up on your site. Do I need something to see =
them?
Earl
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Steve,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I don't see my sent images up on your =
site. Do I=20
need something to see them?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Earl</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 11:55:28 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: PURE DFM/CE
Steve,
Thought I was sending privately. Sorry!
Earl
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 11:59:12 -0600
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From: Kathy Kuhlow <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: PURE DFM/CE
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 11:58:21 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Spann, Phillip J (Contractor-SDC)"
<[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Copper
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Look at ultracad.com's current calculator. It say's with 3oz. copper
on outer layers with a 20 deg. temp rise, you would need about a 1.5
inch wide trace. 3oz. copper can be had by plating up 2oz. copper
which is a little more standard.
Phillip Spann
SDC, Inc.
-----Original Message-----
From: Shannon Stutzman [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 11:46 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Copper
My main power traces will be carrying a maximum of 20 amps it is the ground
return that must carry the full load. We are trying to avoid a large ground
plane.
>>> [log in to unmask] 01/04/02 11:38AM >>>
In the August 1997 issue of Printed Circuit Design there was a Designer's
Viewpoint column that had a conversion chart for finished trace widths to
standard wire gauges. It has copper weights of 1/2, 1, and 2oz related to
AWG ratings ranging from #39 down to #10. For instance, to get the
equivalent of AWG #10 in a 2oz non plated trace, it must be 0.472429" wide,
for a plated trace, 0.344745". It also gives the resistance/inch for 20, 50
and 75 degrees celcius.
It doesn't give current carrying capability, but you can usually get current
ratings of AWG wires. Do you have to do 80A all in one trace? Can you run
some wires in parallel with the trace on the board?
-----Original Message-----
From: Shannon Stutzman [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: January 4, 2002 11:01 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Copper
Hello everyone;
I am looking for a chart or an equation that will allow me to find the
copper thickness needed in relation to current. I have the chart that is
given by IPC but this chart dose not give current ranges or copper
thicknesses high enough for my application. I need to how thick of copper
to use for 80 amps and what the minimum trace width that can be used. If
any of you have any information on this I would appreciate it.
Thank you.
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 10:09:03 -0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Jana Carraway <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Final Audit/Inspection
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Thank you for the reference Daan. We have compared inspection operator to
operator with the aforementioned variation in results.
Another interesting site, for anyone interested, is the American Society for
Quality Control at www.asq.org.
Thanks again,
Jana Carraway
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of d. terstegge
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 8:36 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Final Audit/Inspection
Hi Jana,
Couldn't find anything detailed about the efficiency of visual inspection,
although the article at
http://www.circuitsassembly.com/online/2001/08/0108msl.htm refers to such
studies. A few lines copied from this article:
"Human inspection's greatest drawback lies in the inspectors themselves.
Studies have shown the inability of people to consistently and
objectively apply an inspection criterion over time. In one study, the
same set of boards was passed in front of the same operators multiple
times; the operators' results agreed with their own previous results
only 20 to 30 percent of the time. Variation in results between
operators was even greater."
I guess it's the kind of study that's not too difficult to setup for your
own process.
Daan Terstegge
SMT Centre
Thales Communications
Unclassified mail
Personal Website: http://www.smtinfo.net
>>> Jana Carraway <[log in to unmask]> 01/03 6:51 pm >>>
Daan or others,
Could anyone refer me to articles, studies, etc. that demonstrate the
inefficiency of visual inspection and, if I remember correctly, the drop in
efficiency over time? I'm working on incoming inspection of bare
substrates - possibly an AQL type sampling, but have many concerns regarding
supplier lot quality, visual inspection efficiency, and product quality
requirements. Earl and I have been chatting about this for a bit now.
Another question, since I have your rapt attention... is it possible to
statistically equate lot quality (yield) to outgoing quality (yield)? In
other words, the supplier would have to produce product at xx% yield to meet
incoming requirement of yy% yield?
Best of the New Year to you all,
Jana Carraway
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of d. terstegge
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 7:22 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Final Audit/Inspection
Hi Olivia,
You should be very happy if your inspection people catch more than 50% of
the defects. The remainder will simply be overlooked. This is not an
opinion, but it's a proven fact !!
It is just not possible to inspect quality into the product, instead you
should focus on the assembly process.
B.T.W. on my website I have some nice software available (it's a free beta
version) that may be helpfull for you with the inspection of the pcb's after
pick&place machine. The URL is
http://www.smtinfo.net/smtmaestro/smtmaestro.html
Daan Terstegge
SMT Centre
Thales Communications
Unclassified mail
>>> Olivia Mc Dermott <[log in to unmask]> 01/03 4:01 pm >>>
We do have inspection points throughout the process. The problem is they are
also missing defects and letting them through to final inspection.I wondered
if there is a direct instruction on inspecting.
1. you do this
2. you do this.
>From: Kathy Kuhlow <[log in to unmask]>
>Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: [TN] Final Audit/Inspection
>Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 08:49:32 -0600
>
>I would first start with some in-process sampling so you can pinpoint what
>types of defects the process is currently producing. Do you see more
>missing components from surface mount or do you have a problem withe solder
>shorts on the solder side because of wave issues or snapping problems.
>All to many organizations use a final inspection as a safety net. In my
>dream world I would have no one doing final inspection but bring it back to
>the process and do the inspection at the process through auditing by both
>production and quality personnel so immediate feedback can be accomplished.
> Otherwise you get data that is out of date and you can't really take
>effective corrective actions, especially if your world is as a CM or small
>run lots.
>
>If you must do a final inspection then we typically start with a complete
>part verification (value, polarity, AVL check) than solder (quality,
>quantity, lead placement) and finally any specific customer
>instructions(labeling, rev add, etc).
>
>Kathy
><< TEXT.htm >>
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 12:06:49 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Shannon Stutzman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: OPTO ISOLATOR
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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I am looking for a opto isolator that can take in a single AC phase. If =
anyone has an idea of what complany might carry one please let me know.
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 10:08:46 -0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Denis Lefebvre <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Copper
In-Reply-To: <A71205756C62D411B06900B0D03DC136B1BFD7@CONNECTOR>
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There is a calculator application available here:
http://www.ultracad.com/calc.htm
Scroll down to Wiregage.exe.
Also see: http://www.pcdmag.com/resources/equations/
-Denis
At 11:38 AM 1/4/2002 -0600, you wrote:
>In the August 1997 issue of Printed Circuit Design there was a Designer's
>Viewpoint column that had a conversion chart for finished trace widths to
>standard wire gauges. It has copper weights of 1/2, 1, and 2oz related to
>AWG ratings ranging from #39 down to #10. For instance, to get the
>equivalent of AWG #10 in a 2oz non plated trace, it must be 0.472429" wide,
>for a plated trace, 0.344745". It also gives the resistance/inch for 20, 50
>and 75 degrees celcius.
>It doesn't give current carrying capability, but you can usually get current
>ratings of AWG wires. Do you have to do 80A all in one trace? Can you run
>some wires in parallel with the trace on the board?
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Shannon Stutzman [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>Sent: January 4, 2002 11:01 AM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: [TN] Copper
>
>
>Hello everyone;
>
>I am looking for a chart or an equation that will allow me to find the
>copper thickness needed in relation to current. I have the chart that is
>given by IPC but this chart dose not give current ranges or copper
>thicknesses high enough for my application. I need to how thick of copper
>to use for 80 amps and what the minimum trace width that can be used. If
>any of you have any information on this I would appreciate it.
>
>Thank you.
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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--=====================_13883022==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
<html>
There is a calculator application available here:<br>
<a href="http://www.ultracad.com/calc.htm" eudora="autourl">http://www.ultracad.com/calc.htm</a><br>
Scroll down to <i>Wiregage.exe.<br><br>
</i>Also see:
<a href="http://www.pcdmag.com/resources/equations/" eudora="autourl">http://www.pcdmag.com/resources/equations/</a><br>
-Denis<br><br>
At 11:38 AM 1/4/2002 -0600, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>In the August 1997 issue of Printed
Circuit Design there was a Designer's<br>
Viewpoint column that had a conversion chart for finished trace widths
to<br>
standard wire gauges. It has copper weights of 1/2, 1, and 2oz
related to<br>
AWG ratings ranging from #39 down to #10. For instance, to get
the<br>
equivalent of AWG #10 in a 2oz non plated trace, it must be
0.472429" wide,<br>
for a plated trace, 0.344745". It also gives the
resistance/inch for 20, 50<br>
and 75 degrees celcius.<br>
It doesn't give current carrying capability, but you can usually get
current<br>
ratings of AWG wires. Do you have to do 80A all in one trace?
Can you run<br>
some wires in parallel with the trace on the board?<br><br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Shannon Stutzman
[<a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" eudora="autourl">mailto:[log in to unmask]</a>]<br>
Sent: January 4, 2002 11:01 AM<br>
To: [log in to unmask]<br>
Subject: [TN] Copper<br><br>
<br>
Hello everyone;<br><br>
I am looking for a chart or an equation that will allow me to find
the<br>
copper thickness needed in relation to current. I have the chart
that is<br>
given by IPC but this chart dose not give current ranges or copper<br>
thicknesses high enough for my application. I need to how thick of
copper<br>
to use for 80 amps and what the minimum trace width that can be
used. If<br>
any of you have any information on this I would appreciate it.<br><br>
Thank you.<br><br>
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 12:21:41 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Don Vischulis <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: PURE DFM/CE
In-Reply-To: <001f01c19549$45acfa80$1a3ffea9@moonman3>
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Saw them earlier today, Earl. You just need to double click the thumbnails.
If you don't see the thumbnails, try clicking the reload button on your
browser.
Don Vischulis
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Earl Moon
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 11:57 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] PURE DFM/CE
Steve,
I don't see my sent images up on your site. Do I need something to see them?
Earl
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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D431122018-04012002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Saw=20
them earlier today, Earl. You just need to double click the=20
thumbnails. If you don't see the thumbnails, try clicking the =
reload=20
button on your browser.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D431122018-04012002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D431122018-04012002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Don=20
Vischulis</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> TechNet=20
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Earl Moon<BR><B>Sent:</B> =
Friday,=20
January 04, 2002 11:57 AM<BR><B>To:</B> =
[log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:=20
[TN] PURE DFM/CE<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Steve,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I don't see my sent images up on your =
site. Do I=20
need something to see them?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Earl</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 10:29:31 -0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Jana Carraway <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Final Audit/Inspection
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Dan,
Thank you for the nourishing additional mental morsels! I agree with all
you say and we are doing much of this. Where I hadn't 'gelled' my position
was with regard to the last point:
At what point/product type/product complexity does expecting the supplier to
provide 100% good parts fail or become unreasonable?
"As you might surmise from the previous comments, this is a very complex
question with the cost of detecting defective material and the cost of
shipping defective material becoming part of the answer. This means that
the answer is individualized for each situation."
I have been working up different scenarios with respect to cost of returns,
cost of inspection, acceptable risk, etc. I appreciate the discussion and
"sanity check" it provided me.
My thanks to all who commented on this thread ... including Earl! Sometimes
this list is almost as interesting as my dog list!
Jana Carraway
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Don Vischulis
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 4:55 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Final Audit/Inspection
Dear Jana,
I've been lurking long enough. Just have to put my 2 cents in.
What if:
you are not in the commercial market, and
there are few companies capable of manufacturing your designs, and
the design specifications are required for the end product, and
it's a specialty product, so it is not IBM or Cisco volumes, hence your
vendor pool is small, and
the supplier has not been able to meet the yields they initially projected
for such designs, and
then on top of all that...it's flex...
Without regard to the board type - if you're trying to work with the
supplier (DFM/CE - partnership, etc.), you should sit down with them and
determine why the yields are below expectations. Based on that review there
may be several outcomes. Those outcomes include requests for design
changes, supplier process improvements, and/or an acceptance of the lower
yields with a possible price concession (if you want them to build more).
It's essential that one is aware of industry wide process capabilities
(benchmarking) for that product. There is competition in the low
volume/tight tolerance marketplace as well as the high volume market, and
all suppliers do not have identical capabilities.
A design can only be tweaked (real word? spelling?) or DFM'd within the
required technology design limits. If we designed for 100% yield, we
could
not build the products. I think that's real life for many people. We
accept, and the manufacturer accepts, that the product yield will be
greatly
less than 100%. Okay, that's life with these products.
This is where the Moonman is coming from with DFM/CE. The design process
is iterative. That is, you work with your supplier, built a prototype,
evaluate the results, and make adjustments. All parties must work to
understand the root causes for any problems. If a design is pushing the
capability envelope, concessions must be made.
So, then we go back to the basic question(s), what is reasonable to expect
at incoming - a)100% good product in the door, b) perform an AQL, c)
perform
100% inspection, or d)other...?
From a quality perspective, the answer depends on what the end user finds
acceptable. You can expect 100% good product at the door but somebody has
to take steps to ensure that it really is 100% - even 6 sigma quality has a
few parts per billion defective. If you can't accept any defects, sampling
inspection is not acceptable. You must 100% inspect/test the incoming
product. Remember that AQL is the acronym for Acceptable Quality Level - by
definition the acceptable percentage of incoming defective product that is
acceptable to the production floor. Formulas exist to estimate the
percentage of defective product that the manufacturing floor will see given
the percent of defectives shipped from the supplier and the inspection plan
used at incoming inspection.
Perhaps something you've been saying has more impact than I realize, as I
think about it - contract negotiations. If the supplier signs up to meet
design/product criteria and doesn't, my options are:
a)change suppliers,
b)if a is not possible, negotiate incremental improvements with the goal
of
meeting the specifications?
IMO one must do one or the other (unless the corporation enjoys
suffering). The process where one determines the best practices available
is called benchmarking . Once the best capabilities available are
determined, the choices are living with the status quo, working with the
current supplier base to improve capabilities, or changing suppliers. The
caveat is that perfection does not exist - the lowest absolute purchase
price (not total cost of ownership) and the most capable process do not
often reside within the same walls. When they do, the world beats a path to
their door.
At what point/product type/product complexity does expecting the supplier
to
provide 100% good parts fail or become unreasonable?
As you might surmise from the previous comments, this is a very complex
question with the cost of detecting defective material and the cost of
shipping defective material becoming part of the answer. This means that
the answer is individualized for each situation.
I hope that these additional mental morsels provide nourishment for you.
(Translated - I hope that this gives you some food for thought.)
Don Vischulis
[log in to unmask]
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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<HTML><HEAD><TITLE></TITLE>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2920.0" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D904041618-04012002>Dan,=20
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D904041618-04012002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D904041618-04012002>Thank=20
you for the nourishing additional mental morsels! I agree with all =
you say=20
and we are doing much of this. Where I hadn't 'gelled' my =
position=20
was with regard to the last point:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D904041618-04012002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D904041618-04012002><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial =
size=3D2>At=20
what point/product type/product complexity does expecting the supplier=20
to<BR>provide 100% good parts fail or become unreasonable?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN=20
class=3D904041618-04012002>"</SPAN>As you might surmise from the =
previous=20
comments, this is a very complex question with the cost of detecting =
defective=20
material and the cost of shipping defective material becoming part of =
the=20
answer. This means that the answer is individualized for each=20
situation.<SPAN =
class=3D904041618-04012002>"</SPAN><BR></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D904041618-04012002>I have=20
been working up different scenarios with respect to cost of returns, =
cost of=20
inspection, acceptable risk, etc. I appreciate the discussion and =
"sanity=20
check" it provided me. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D904041618-04012002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D904041618-04012002>My=20
thanks to all who commented on this thread ... including Earl! =
Sometimes=20
this list is almost as interesting as my dog list!</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D904041618-04012002>Jana=20
Carraway</SPAN></FONT></DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT =
face=3DArial>
<DIV> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV align=3Dleft class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> TechNet=20
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Don =
Vischulis<BR><B>Sent:</B>=20
Thursday, January 03, 2002 4:55 PM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
[log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [TN] Final=20
Audit/Inspection<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2>Dear =
Jana,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2>I've been lurking =
long=20
enough. Just have to put my 2 cents in.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR><FONT size=3D2>What if:<BR>you are not in the commercial =
market,=20
and<BR>there are few companies capable of manufacturing your designs,=20
and<BR>the design specifications are required for the end product, =
and<BR>it's=20
a specialty product, so it is not IBM or Cisco volumes, hence =
your<BR>vendor=20
pool is small, and<BR>the supplier has not been able to meet the =
yields they=20
initially projected<BR>for such designs, and<BR>then on top of all =
that...it's=20
flex...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial>Without regard =
to the board=20
type - if you're trying to work with the supplier (DFM/CE - =
partnership,=20
etc.), you should sit down with them and determine why the yields are =
below=20
expectations. Based on that review there may be several =
outcomes. =20
Those outcomes include requests for design changes, supplier process=20
improvements, and/or an acceptance of the lower yields with a possible =
price=20
concession (if you want them to build more). It's essential that =
one is=20
aware of industry wide process capabilities (benchmarking) for that=20
product. There is competition in the low volume/tight tolerance=20
marketplace as well as the high volume market, and all suppliers do =
not have=20
identical capabilities.</FONT></FONT><FONT size=3D2><BR><BR>A design =
can only be=20
tweaked (real word? spelling?) or DFM'd within the<BR>required =
technology=20
design limits. If we designed for 100% yield, we could<BR>not =
build the=20
products. I think that's real life for many people. =
We<BR>accept,=20
and the manufacturer accepts, that the product yield will be =
greatly<BR>less=20
than 100%. Okay, that's life with these products.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial>This is where =
the Moonman is=20
coming from with DFM/CE. The design process is iterative. =
That is,=20
you work with your supplier, built a prototype, evaluate the results, =
and make=20
adjustments. All parties must work to understand the root causes =
for any=20
problems. If a design is pushing the capability envelope, =
concessions=20
must be made.</FONT><BR><BR>So, then we go back to the basic =
question(s), what=20
is reasonable to expect<BR>at incoming - a)100% good product in the =
door, b)=20
perform an AQL, c) perform<BR>100% inspection, or =
d)other...?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial>From a quality =
perspective,=20
the answer depends on what the end user finds acceptable. You =
can expect=20
100% good product at the door but somebody has to take steps to ensure =
that it=20
really is 100% - even 6 sigma quality has a few parts per billion=20
defective. If you can't accept any defects, sampling inspection =
is not=20
acceptable. You must 100% inspect/test the incoming =
product. =20
Remember that AQL is the acronym for Acceptable Quality Level - by =
definition=20
the acceptable percentage of incoming defective product that is =
acceptable to=20
the production floor. Formulas exist to estimate the percentage =
of=20
defective product that the manufacturing floor will see given the =
percent of=20
defectives shipped from the supplier and the inspection plan used at =
incoming=20
inspection.</FONT><BR><BR>Perhaps something you've been saying has =
more impact=20
than I realize, as I<BR>think about it - contract negotiations. =
If the=20
supplier signs up to meet<BR>design/product criteria and doesn't, my =
options=20
are:<BR>a)change suppliers,<BR>b)if a is not possible, negotiate =
incremental=20
improvements with the goal of<BR>meeting the =
specifications?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial>IMO one must do =
one or the=20
other (unless the corporation enjoys suffering). The process =
where one=20
determines the best practices available is called benchmarking . =
Once=20
the best capabilities available are determined, the choices =
are living=20
with the status quo, working with the current supplier base to improve =
capabilities, or changing suppliers. The caveat is that =
perfection does=20
not exist - the lowest absolute purchase price (not total cost of =
ownership)=20
and the most capable process do not often reside within the same =
walls. =20
When they do, the world beats a path to their door.</FONT><BR><BR>At =
what=20
point/product type/product complexity does expecting the supplier=20
to<BR>provide 100% good parts fail or become =
unreasonable?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial>As you might =
surmise from the=20
previous comments, this is a very complex question with the cost of =
detecting=20
defective material and the cost of shipping defective material =
becoming part=20
of the answer. This means that the answer is individualized for =
each=20
situation.</FONT><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial>I hope that =
these additional=20
mental morsels provide nourishment for you. (Translated - I hope =
that=20
this gives you some food for thought.)</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2>Don =
Vischulis</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A></FONT></DIV=
></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 13:28:42 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Dieselberg, Ron" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Final Audit/Inspection
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TechNetters,
I agree with most of what everyone has said about inspection, but one point
I may have missed that Raby always pounded on was frequent calibration of
the inspectors. I believe that better consistency can be more easily
realized with frequent calibration using samples and good visual aids.
Inspecting objectively is the key, but not always easy to achieve.
Ron Dieselberg
Trainer/Auditor
CMC ELECTRONICS
CINCINNATI
[log in to unmask]
-----Original Message-----
From: Earl Moon [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 12:11 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Final Audit/Inspection
the following is my thesis so thanks Daan as usual:
The second view is that test and inspection provide a
measure of the
effectiveness of the production process. Rather than simply
netting
defective units as they go by, the focus is on improving the
process such
that fewer defective units are produced in the first place.
The key
difference is the perception and use of test/inspection as a
feedback tool.
This difference is subtle, yet powerful, with far-reaching
economic
implications, and it requires a holistic view of the
manufacturing process
and an understanding of the synergy between process,
inspection and test.
Earl
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<BODY>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">TechNetters,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I agree with most of what everyone =
has said about inspection, but one point I may have missed that Raby =
always pounded on was frequent calibration of the inspectors. I believe =
that better consistency can be more easily realized with frequent =
calibration using samples and good visual aids. Inspecting</FONT><U> =
<FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">objectively</FONT></U><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial"> is the key, but not always easy to achieve.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Ron Dieselberg</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Trainer/Auditor</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">CMC ELECTRONICS</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">CINCINNATI</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">[log in to unmask]</FONT>
</P>
<UL><UL>
<P><A NAME=3D"_MailData"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">-----Original =
Message-----</FONT></A>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">From: Earl Moon [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]</A>]</FONT></=
B>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Sent: </FONT></B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Friday, January 04, 2002 12:11 PM</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">To: </FONT></B> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">[log in to unmask]</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Subject: </FONT>=
</B> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Re: [TN] Final =
Audit/Inspection</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">the following is my thesis so thanks =
Daan as usual:</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">The second view is that test and =
inspection provide a measure of the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">effectiveness of the production =
process. Rather than simply netting</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">defective units as they go by, the =
focus is on improving the process such</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">that fewer defective units are =
produced in the first place. The key</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">difference is the perception and use =
of test/inspection as a feedback tool.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">This difference is subtle, yet =
powerful, with far-reaching economic</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">implications, and it requires a =
holistic view of the manufacturing process</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">and an understanding of the synergy =
between process, inspection and test.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Earl</FONT>
</P>
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 13:31:28 EST
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Stephen R. Gregory" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: PURE DFM/CE
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="part1_24.1ec538e7.29674f00_boundary"
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Hi Earl!
They're there...just checked myself. Down at the bottom...the last three on
the right.
-Steve Gregory-
> Steve,
>
> I don't see my sent images up on your site. Do I need something to see them?
>
> Earl
>
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>Hi Earl!
<BR>
<BR>They're there...just checked myself. Down at the bottom...the last three on the right.
<BR>
<BR>-Steve Gregory-
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Steve,
<BR>
<BR>I don't see my sent images up on your site. Do I need something to see them?
<BR>
<BR>Earl
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 13:40:08 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Phil Nutting <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Copper
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The calculator seems to work well, but I had some problems with the
links on the pcd mag page. (notified their webmaster).
=20
Our typical design uses 4 oz. boards for all of our "heavy duty" boards.
It used to be 6 oz. but we had too many vendor quality problems or no
bids on orders. On these boards we usually design the board by removing
as little copper as possible (right or wrong).
=20
Phil Nutting
-----Original Message-----
From: Denis Lefebvre [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 1:09 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Copper
There is a calculator application available here:
http://www.ultracad.com/calc.htm
Scroll down to Wiregage.exe.
Also see: http://www.pcdmag.com/resources/equations/
-Denis
At 11:38 AM 1/4/2002 -0600, you wrote:
In the August 1997 issue of Printed Circuit Design there was a
Designer's
Viewpoint column that had a conversion chart for finished trace widths
to
standard wire gauges. It has copper weights of 1/2, 1, and 2oz related
to
AWG ratings ranging from #39 down to #10. For instance, to get the
equivalent of AWG #10 in a 2oz non plated trace, it must be 0.472429"
wide,
for a plated trace, 0.344745". It also gives the resistance/inch for
20, 50
and 75 degrees celcius.
It doesn't give current carrying capability, but you can usually get
current
ratings of AWG wires. Do you have to do 80A all in one trace? Can you
run
some wires in parallel with the trace on the board?
-----Original Message-----
From: Shannon Stutzman [ mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: January 4, 2002 11:01 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Copper
Hello everyone;
I am looking for a chart or an equation that will allow me to find the
copper thickness needed in relation to current. I have the chart that
is
given by IPC but this chart dose not give current ranges or copper
thicknesses high enough for my application. I need to how thick of
copper
to use for 80 amps and what the minimum trace width that can be used.
If
any of you have any information on this I would appreciate it.
Thank you.
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<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D833033718-04012002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>The=20
calculator seems to work well, but I had some problems with the links on =
the pcd=20
mag page. (notified their webmaster).</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D833033718-04012002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D833033718-04012002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Our=20
typical design uses 4 oz. boards for all of our "heavy duty" =
boards. It=20
used to be 6 oz. but we had too many vendor quality problems or no bids =
on=20
orders. On these boards we usually design the board by removing as =
little=20
copper as possible (right or wrong).</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D833033718-04012002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D833033718-04012002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Phil=20
Nutting</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Denis Lefebvre=20
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, January =
04, 2002=20
1:09 PM<BR><B>To:</B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [TN]=20
Copper<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>There is a calculator application available =
here:<BR><A href=3D"http://www.ultracad.com/calc.htm"=20
eudora=3D"autourl">http://www.ultracad.com/calc.htm</A><BR>Scroll down =
to=20
<I>Wiregage.exe.<BR><BR></I>Also see: <A=20
href=3D"http://www.pcdmag.com/resources/equations/"=20
=
eudora=3D"autourl">http://www.pcdmag.com/resources/equations/</A><BR>-Den=
is<BR><BR>At=20
11:38 AM 1/4/2002 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dcite cite=3D"" type=3D"cite">In the August 1997 =
issue of=20
Printed Circuit Design there was a Designer's<BR>Viewpoint column =
that had a=20
conversion chart for finished trace widths to<BR>standard wire =
gauges. =20
It has copper weights of 1/2, 1, and 2oz related to<BR>AWG ratings =
ranging=20
from #39 down to #10. For instance, to get the<BR>equivalent =
of AWG=20
#10 in a 2oz non plated trace, it must be 0.472429" wide,<BR>for a =
plated=20
trace, 0.344745". It also gives the resistance/inch for 20, =
50<BR>and=20
75 degrees celcius.<BR>It doesn't give current carrying capability, =
but you=20
can usually get current<BR>ratings of AWG wires. Do you have =
to do 80A=20
all in one trace? Can you run<BR>some wires in parallel with =
the trace=20
on the board?<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: Shannon =
Stutzman=20
[<A href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"=20
eudora=3D"autourl">mailto:[log in to unmask]</A>]<BR>Sent: =
January 4, 2002=20
11:01 AM<BR>To: [log in to unmask]<BR>Subject: [TN] =
Copper<BR><BR><BR>Hello=20
everyone;<BR><BR>I am looking for a chart or an equation that will =
allow me=20
to find the<BR>copper thickness needed in relation to current. =
I have=20
the chart that is<BR>given by IPC but this chart dose not give =
current=20
ranges or copper<BR>thicknesses high enough for my =
application. I need=20
to how thick of copper<BR>to use for 80 amps and what the minimum =
trace=20
width that can be used. If<BR>any of you have any information =
on this=20
I would appreciate it.<BR><BR>Thank=20
=
you.<BR><BR>-------------------------------------------------------------=
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 12:53:37 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: PURE DFM/CE
X-To: "Stephen R. Gregory" <[log in to unmask]>
Well Steve, that explains why I'm only writing a book. Better not ge me
involved with 'chinery.' As long as you say it's there, that's ok with me.
MoonMan
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 12:58:25 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Final Audit/Inspection
X-To: Jana Carraway <[log in to unmask]>
Thanks so much Jana. Certainly glad to be included in your list of
suggestor's. Let's see what you do now. We all can hardly wait for results.
Seriously though, that calibration thing is important, as if you didn't
know. It's all in DFM/CE and ISO. What else is new?
MoonMan
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 11:16:31 -0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Jana Carraway <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Final Audit/Inspection
X-To: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
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Thanks so much Jana. Certainly glad to be included in your list of
suggestor's.
Ya mean since ya put the spoon in and stirred the pot in the first place!!!
Thank you for all your insightful comments Earl.
Jana
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 13:14:11 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: PURE DFM/CE
X-To: "Stephen R. Gregory" <[log in to unmask]>
Steve,
Thanks for the know how. Don't it just choke you all up reading this
insightful stuff? Sob, Sob, gung ho, gung ho.
MoonMan
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 13:24:37 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Final Audit/Inspection
X-To: Jana Carraway <[log in to unmask]>
Jana, as Kathy won't have me as the kats' claw's mate, though having
suggested the silver spoon present I never got, now you won't be needing me
anymore. Damn sad story though been repeated throughout my life. Couldn't be
my fault. Someone must feel my pain and offer some solice? Just so it's not EZ.
MoonMan
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 15:21:50 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Dieselberg, Ron" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Final Audit/Inspection
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We all "feel" for you Earl, you are just out of reach!
Ron Dieselberg
Trainer/Auditor
CMC ELECTRONICS
CINCINNATI
[log in to unmask]
-----Original Message-----
From: Earl Moon [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 14:25 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Final Audit/Inspection
Jana, as Kathy won't have me as the kats' claw's mate,
though having
suggested the silver spoon present I never got, now you
won't be needing me
anymore. Damn sad story though been repeated throughout my
life. Couldn't be
my fault. Someone must feel my pain and offer some solice?
Just so it's not EZ.
MoonMan
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<TITLE>RE: [TN] Final Audit/Inspection</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">We all "feel" for you Earl, you are =
just out of reach!</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Ron Dieselberg</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Trainer/Auditor</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">CMC ELECTRONICS</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">CINCINNATI</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">[log in to unmask]</FONT>
</P>
<UL><UL>
<P><A NAME=3D"_MailData"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">-----Original =
Message-----</FONT></A>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">From: Earl Moon [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]</A>]</FONT></=
B>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Sent: </FONT></B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Friday, January 04, 2002 14:25 PM</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">To: </FONT></B> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">[log in to unmask]</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Subject: </FONT>=
</B> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Re: [TN] Final =
Audit/Inspection</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Jana, as Kathy won't have me as the =
kats' claw's mate, though having</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">suggested the silver spoon present I =
never got, now you won't be needing me</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">anymore. Damn sad story though been =
repeated throughout my life. Couldn't be</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">my fault. Someone must feel my pain =
and offer some solice? Just so it's not EZ.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">MoonMan</FONT>
</P>
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 12:52:38 -0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Jana Carraway <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Final Audit/Inspection
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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I was thinking something much more "industrial strength" than a nice silver
spoon! But Earl, you got to stop setting yourself up for such
disappointments!
Best,
Jana Carraway
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Earl Moon
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 11:25 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Final Audit/Inspection
Jana, as Kathy won't have me as the kats' claw's mate, though having
suggested the silver spoon present I never got, now you won't be needing me
anymore. Damn sad story though been repeated throughout my life. Couldn't be
my fault. Someone must feel my pain and offer some solice? Just so it's not
EZ.
MoonMan
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 15:34:17 -0600
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 14:21:09 -0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: JaMi Smith <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Rework Station
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Vinit,
Please forgive the format of the response, but I am new to the forum and
am responding via a cut and paste on an archived issue.
Regarding a rework station, I would very very highly recommend a product
called a "CHIPMASTER 1000" by a company called A.P.E. in Florida.
Although their website is a little hard to navigate thru the various
products that they offer, here is a link:
* http://apecorp.com <http://apecorp.com/>=20
A few years back, I was doing a stint with Seagate Technology as a
Development Technician when it became my job to personally oversee the
removal and replacement of 2 large ASIC's each from a pilot production
run of 300 DAT Tape Drives, in a very short time, with no damage to any
boards. I could not find any rework houses that could guarantee quick
turn and no damaged units (zero damaged boards).
The solution turned out to be the purchase of a "CHIPMASTER 1000", which
I had purchased, had shipped, received, setup, and became proficient in
the proper use of, all in less than a week, for about half the price of
the best bid we had from an outside house.
It took me an extra half day to train our top assembly girl from the
line in how to disassemble each drive, use the CHIPMASTER for the
Rework, and reassemble the Drive.
Between the two of us, we had the job done in less that 2 weeks overall,
which included testing the reworked units, without the loss of a single
drive.
These people have a unique patented approach to getting the heat where
it belongs to accomplish the task quickly and safely, without damage to
the Board, which works equally well with either BGA or leaded SMT
devices. They also have a great inventory of nozzles, and a unique
"nozzle exchange" program to help you keep your cost down
Do yourself a big favor, and at least look into what they have to offer,
and compare them to any other systems that you might be thinking about.
Did I mention that the cost of the overall rework project, including my
time, was less than the best quote we were able to get, and that the
total turnaround time also beat doing it outside.
The system payed for itself on the first job.
Hope to have been of some help,
JaMi Smith Member of Engineering Staff
Optical Crossing Inc.
=20
Hi all,=20
I am presently evaluating BGA rework machine. I would be grateful if,
anyone who is using the same, could provide me their feedback regarding
their respective equipment, regarding the performance, reliability,
accuracy, ease of operation, nozzle reliability, nozzle costs, profile
accurcy, software, and any other factor which you feel is important.=20
I am also looking at this equipment for prototyping.=20
Thanks in anticipation.=20
Regards=20
Vinit Verma Flextronics Technologies (India) Pvt. Ltd. E-Mail :
[log in to unmask]
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---------=20
=20
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 18:26:51 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Final Audit/Inspection
X-To: Ron Dieselberg <[log in to unmask]>
Ron,
There's nothing wrong with being felt. I'm just out of reach of "old" guys,
or any guys for that matter.
Thanks Ron for making me remember again,
MoonMan
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 18:28:43 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Final Audit/Inspection
X-To: Jana Carraway <[log in to unmask]>
I've never been considered too bright. Must be the silver tarnish or plague.
MoonMan
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 22:18:03 EST
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
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From: Stephen Gregory <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: ENIG solder joint appearance
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Hi All,
About to get into a discussion concerning ENIG PCB's, and solder joint
appearance.
I've used a 2% silver solder paste because from past history at other
employers, it did seem to make a difference in the overall appearance,
surface, and otherwise, for the better...
But from my perspective, ENIG plated PCB joints, won't ever look like the
joints on a HASL plated PCB. A 2% silver will make things look a little
better (In my humble opinion), but they still won't be as bright and sparkly
as a HASL joint will exhibit...
But is that really a problem?
I know what the J-STD-001, and the -610 says, but I'm about to face some
concerns from one of our customers that the solder doesn't look as shiney as
it should be ( I think)...bottomline, they have some concerns about the
solder...the boards in question are ENIG...
I know this has been talked about over and over again, and I used a 2% silver
solder to try and make things look a little better. It does, but the joints
still aren't as shiney as a HASL joint....they won't be as long as you have
gold in the equation, but that doesn't mean that the joint is bad...
Next week is gonna be fun...
-Steve Gregory-
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Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 11:58:32 +0800
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Hi Tech-net,
I would like to subcribe to tech.net. pls send thru following address.
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Rgds,
OH Yeoh
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Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 16:16:17 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: TOO MUCH?
Ok folks,
I think it's obvious to some who care, and I hope some do, I tend to go a
little off the deep end with this quality thing. I abhor poor quality
anything. Used to be, maybe still is, an auto parts lifetime warranty sucked
because you had to take the alternator, or whatever, back every month, if
fortunate, and get another. Though the replacement part was "free," just the
replacement effort alone, for me, was worth more than the damn part. Well, I
got sick and tired of it and changed the whole industry single handed.
Believe that? I doubt it.
With nothing happening on this site I'm reaching deep to stir the pot this
time while being bored out of my mind here in Michigan. Hell, it ain't even
snowing but the temps about nothing. Well, you're probably getting as tired
of my rants as I am writing them, but consider the following:
SEATTLE (AP) - Hundreds of people who bought Microsoft's hot new Xbox gaming
console over the holidays received defective systems, and some said they had
to wait weeks and endure shoddy customer service before their systems were
fixed.
While analysts say the number of flawed consoles is probably too small to
spell serious production troubles, they caution that the long repair times
may harm the software giant in its first major foray into hardware.
John Kreis bought an Xbox the day it came out. But the 31-year-old Chicago
man's $300 system stopped working almost immediately. Kreis said it took a
month of aggravation with Xbox customer service before he got a replacement.
``The whole thing that was so frustrating (was) just the fact that still to
this day I'm waiting for a call back just to explain to me what happened,''
he said.
The Associated Press spoke with about a dozen Xbox users who complained of a
game system that never worked or worked for a few hours or days before
freezing up. Most called the customer service response poor.
``I'm taking my Christmas decorations down and (my son) hasn't gotten to
play with his Christmas toys yet,'' Debbie Mason, of Uniontown, Pa., said
Thursday.
She had just been told in her ninth call to customer service that, despite
an earlier promise that the system would be sent back that day, it turned
out to be broken again.
Microsoft sales and marketing director John O'Rourke said fewer than 1
percent of the Microsoft units - 10,000 units in this case - have proven
faulty. Analysts say that's in line with the industry standard, and
competitor Nintendo reported a comparable rate for its new GameCube.
But analyst Rob Enderle of Giga Information Systems warned that a company's
response to those customers who do have problems often is more important
than how many units actually break.
``If 200 people have a really bad experience and they're vocal, then the
impression is the product's bad,'' he said.
During the Christmas season, Enderle added, any return that takes more than
a week is ``a horribly long time.''
For Microsoft, which shipped about 1.5 million Xboxes over the holidays, the
stakes are high. With the highly regarded Xbox, the company is battling
Nintendo and Sony in a hyper-competitive game console market.
Microsoft already has been plagued with rumors of problems at its Mexican
production plant after it delayed its U.S. launch date by a week - to Nov.
15 - and pushed back its Japan launch as well.
The company has denied any major problems.
Plenty of people who bought defective Xboxes got decent customer service.
Marc Patri, 49, said in an e-mail that his Xbox was repaired and returned
within five days - which O'Rourke called the time it should take a unit to
get repaired.
Microsoft uses outside companies, including San Antonio, Texas-based
Harte-Hanks Inc. and Sykes Enterprises in Tampa, Fla., to handle its Xbox
customer service. Xbox repairs are handled by Solectron Corp. of Milpitas,
Calif.
A spokesman for Harte-Hanks declined to comment. The other companies did not
respond to calls seeking comment.
Microsoft has seen no pattern of specific problems, said O'Rourke, and heard
of no major delays with repairs.
Kreis said it took nearly two weeks before he even received an empty box to
send his faulty Xbox back for repair.
And he got conflicting answers: At one point, customer service couldn't find
his records. Another representative told him he would get a new unit rather
than have his old one repaired. Another agent told him they never send new
units out.
Still later, someone called him and asked him how he was enjoying his new
Xbox - which he'd never received.
Finally, on Dec. 10, the repaired Xbox came back.
``I'll be loyal for a while,'' said Kreis. ``But I'm hoping I never have to
call support again, that's for sure.''
Any reactions? I mean, is 1% acceptable or what about the rest of the BS
these people put on us, or are we to blame for wanting untested stuff before
its time? What about the SUV tire thing? Does any of this really matter?
MoonMan
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Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 23:37:20 -0600
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Seth Goodman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Panel Layout Standardization - PCB height increment
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Hello Stacy,
JEDEC Standard MO-161 issue E (9/2000) has the answers you are looking for.
This standard is available for free at
http://www.jedec.org/download/default.cfm Here is a summary of the heights
for all 168-pin DIMM variations listed in the standard. These are
applicable to both first and second generation types, all keying styles and
both 4.0mm and 9.0mm thick modules.
Variation Height, mm +/-0.13 Height, in. +/-0.005
--------- ------------------ --------------------
AA, AB 25.40 1.000
BA, BB 31.75 1.250
CA, CB 38.10 1.500
CC, CD 43.18 1.700
The standards committee either liked asymmetry or wanted to drive us
compulsive types crazy. Kudos to them. Since the widths are all the same,
you should be able to standardize your subpanels to four variations, at
most. The overall PCB thickness is 1.27+/-0.1mm (0.050"+/-0.004") for all
of them. Hope this helps.
Regards,
Seth Goodman
Goodman Associates, LLC
tel 608.833.9933
fax 608.833.9966
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of My Nguyen
> Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 4:59 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Panel Layout Standardization - PCB height increment
>
>
> Hinner,
>
> Typically, a regular DIMM/SIMM module is about 0.020
> to 0.0500 THICK and 1.000" to 1.500" HEIGHT.
>
> I was asking to find out if there is any common
> standard for the Height (not thickness) increment.
> i.e 0.125. Because from my personal experience,
> Layout Engineers from different company or different
> school (even finally they work for the same company)
> may layout a similar PCB at two different height, i.e
> A regular 168 PIN DIMM 5.25 x 1.200 for one and 5.25 x
> 1.250 for another.
>
> If it happens, manufacturing will be caught by
> surprise. They would not have tool and fixture for
> the suprised board. It would take us up to 4 weeks to
> order a pricise tool for depanelization fixture for
> our machines.
>
> A standard increment in PCB height will help
> manufacturing to be fully prepare for current and
> future products. I.e. tool and fixture for 1.000,
> 1.125, 1.250, 1.375, 1.500, etc set.
>
> Please let us know if you have any expert advise or
> opinion.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Stacy
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Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 10:19:41 +0200
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
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From: Brian Ellis <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: TOO MUCH?
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Earl
As you bring up the subject, allow me to recount another Microsoft
service glitch. A little over two years ago, Microsoft brought out the
Intellimouse Explorer, an optical mouse which worked on a new idea. I
bought two of these rodents and was delighted with their performance: a
zillion times better than those things whose balls rotated, especially
for precision work like CAD (in the distant past, I used the
MouseSystems optical mice, but they never made the jump into Win32).
After about a year, one of them stopped working reliably, followed by
the other, a couple of months later.
As Microsoft has zero service for where I live, I phoned the only number
remotely relevant that I could find (an intercontinental call to
Ireland). After being passed from Ireland to England to Germany, in all
45 minutes, I was told that they would replace them, with a tacit
admission that there was a systematic fault.
Of course, nothing happened. An e-mail with their reference number
elicited no response. I've been waiting now for over a year with two
rodents.
Fed up, I decided to have a look at them myself. On taking one of them
apart, I found the cable went from a plug on the PCB up the side and
around the top edge and, on reaching the centre, made a sharp 90° turn
to come out. There is no strain relief of any sort at this point. My
diagnosis was simple: one of the wires broke at this point from the
constant flexing in normal use. It would have been simple to avoid, by
an elastomeric sleeve which would prevent flexing on the sharp
right-angled bend. Of course, someone should have known that such a
sharp bend was bad practice, anyway. I decided on some simple surgery to
repair the caudal dislocation. Careful use of a scalpel showed where the
intervertebral disc had slipped, causing damage to the central nervous
system and I cut it back to a cm above the point: I then rejoined the
nerves by fusing them with a tin lead alloy to where they entered the
brain, eliminating the plug and socket. This worked fine. I did the same
with the other, but with an improvement: I heat-shrank some sleeving
over the cable past the bend and gouged a wider path for it with a Swiss
Army Knife. The first one suffered from a caudal dislocation again after
a few months, but the second one is still working.
I was recently in a large computer supermarket and had a look at the
mice. The same, excellent, model is on sale still. I carefully examined
it. Have Microsoft improved it at where the tail leaves the animal's
body? You must be joking! It is EXACTLY the same as it was two years
earlier. Can you buy replacement cables? Not on your nelly! (Most people
with a small cross-head screwdriver could change it in ten minutes,
given instructions.) OK, I paid only 75 bucks each for them, but that's
a small price to lose their reputation for hardware, just as much I
offer them 0/10 for their software.
I found that Logitech were now offering an equivalent. It looked as if
the cable on them was slightly better supported at the exit, but I
suspect that it, too, went through a sharp bend. Unfortunately, the
Logitech cable was far too rigid for a mouse, so I didn't buy one.
Logitech also offer an optical wireless mouse, but I fear that this
would not be a real answer, as my desk is always cluttered and I fear
the line of sight would constantly be interrupted (and it was hellishly
expensive).
So, Earl, your story about X-boxes does not surprise me. Microsoft have
never been good at customer relations and I don't suppose that they ever
will be as long as William Gates Jr wishes to fill his pockets with
spondulacks, in preference to spending 1% of his fortune to ensure that
his customers were happy. Or, perhaps, the gentleman in question
realises that it would be a damn sight more than 1% to repair all his
customer relations. A few months ago, he was interviewed by the BBC
economist, Paddy O'Connell, who tried on three occasions to get him to
apologise for the tort he had caused Microsoft users in the past through
faults on Windows systems. In each case, Bill adroitly side-stepped the
issue with a clever non sequitur, while not denying that the faults
existed. I believe that he must be a world leader in amorality.
Brian
Earl Moon wrote:
>
> Ok folks,
>
> I think it's obvious to some who care, and I hope some do, I tend to go a
> little off the deep end with this quality thing. I abhor poor quality
> anything. Used to be, maybe still is, an auto parts lifetime warranty sucked
> because you had to take the alternator, or whatever, back every month, if
> fortunate, and get another. Though the replacement part was "free," just the
> replacement effort alone, for me, was worth more than the damn part. Well, I
> got sick and tired of it and changed the whole industry single handed.
> Believe that? I doubt it.
>
> With nothing happening on this site I'm reaching deep to stir the pot this
> time while being bored out of my mind here in Michigan. Hell, it ain't even
> snowing but the temps about nothing. Well, you're probably getting as tired
> of my rants as I am writing them, but consider the following:
>
> SEATTLE (AP) - Hundreds of people who bought Microsoft's hot new Xbox gaming
> console over the holidays received defective systems, and some said they had
> to wait weeks and endure shoddy customer service before their systems were
> fixed.
>
> While analysts say the number of flawed consoles is probably too small to
> spell serious production troubles, they caution that the long repair times
> may harm the software giant in its first major foray into hardware.
>
> John Kreis bought an Xbox the day it came out. But the 31-year-old Chicago
> man's $300 system stopped working almost immediately. Kreis said it took a
> month of aggravation with Xbox customer service before he got a replacement.
>
> ``The whole thing that was so frustrating (was) just the fact that still to
> this day I'm waiting for a call back just to explain to me what happened,''
> he said.
>
> The Associated Press spoke with about a dozen Xbox users who complained of a
> game system that never worked or worked for a few hours or days before
> freezing up. Most called the customer service response poor.
>
> ``I'm taking my Christmas decorations down and (my son) hasn't gotten to
> play with his Christmas toys yet,'' Debbie Mason, of Uniontown, Pa., said
> Thursday.
>
> She had just been told in her ninth call to customer service that, despite
> an earlier promise that the system would be sent back that day, it turned
> out to be broken again.
>
> Microsoft sales and marketing director John O'Rourke said fewer than 1
> percent of the Microsoft units - 10,000 units in this case - have proven
> faulty. Analysts say that's in line with the industry standard, and
> competitor Nintendo reported a comparable rate for its new GameCube.
>
> But analyst Rob Enderle of Giga Information Systems warned that a company's
> response to those customers who do have problems often is more important
> than how many units actually break.
>
> ``If 200 people have a really bad experience and they're vocal, then the
> impression is the product's bad,'' he said.
>
> During the Christmas season, Enderle added, any return that takes more than
> a week is ``a horribly long time.''
>
> For Microsoft, which shipped about 1.5 million Xboxes over the holidays, the
> stakes are high. With the highly regarded Xbox, the company is battling
> Nintendo and Sony in a hyper-competitive game console market.
>
> Microsoft already has been plagued with rumors of problems at its Mexican
> production plant after it delayed its U.S. launch date by a week - to Nov.
> 15 - and pushed back its Japan launch as well.
>
> The company has denied any major problems.
>
> Plenty of people who bought defective Xboxes got decent customer service.
> Marc Patri, 49, said in an e-mail that his Xbox was repaired and returned
> within five days - which O'Rourke called the time it should take a unit to
> get repaired.
>
> Microsoft uses outside companies, including San Antonio, Texas-based
> Harte-Hanks Inc. and Sykes Enterprises in Tampa, Fla., to handle its Xbox
> customer service. Xbox repairs are handled by Solectron Corp. of Milpitas,
> Calif.
>
> A spokesman for Harte-Hanks declined to comment. The other companies did not
> respond to calls seeking comment.
>
> Microsoft has seen no pattern of specific problems, said O'Rourke, and heard
> of no major delays with repairs.
>
> Kreis said it took nearly two weeks before he even received an empty box to
> send his faulty Xbox back for repair.
>
> And he got conflicting answers: At one point, customer service couldn't find
> his records. Another representative told him he would get a new unit rather
> than have his old one repaired. Another agent told him they never send new
> units out.
>
> Still later, someone called him and asked him how he was enjoying his new
> Xbox - which he'd never received.
>
> Finally, on Dec. 10, the repaired Xbox came back.
>
> ``I'll be loyal for a while,'' said Kreis. ``But I'm hoping I never have to
> call support again, that's for sure.''
>
> Any reactions? I mean, is 1% acceptable or what about the rest of the BS
> these people put on us, or are we to blame for wanting untested stuff before
> its time? What about the SUV tire thing? Does any of this really matter?
>
> MoonMan
>
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Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 05:53:39 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: TOO MUCH?
Brian,
Very well stated, as usual, providing images of a mousy sort. I knew you
know lots of stuff, but I didn't know you were/are a world famous rodent
resuscitator. Outstanding surgical skills. Too bad they couldn't be used on
the world's richest man's conscience. A lobotomy or sorts might make his
quality dedication a bit stronger. A shame he's all most of can count on to
make himself richer.
I know the mouse of which you speak. I to tried to move to wired optical
but, because of exactly your problem, I returned to the conojones variety.
My saying used to be, before my illuminated pointing device emitted its last
photon. no Raton cojones aqui.
Worked with Logitech some time back. Unlike Microsuck, their balls were too
small so skipping and lack of resolution was a problem. Tried to tell them
larger is better but they continued making not so well endowed versions. I
wouldn't consider their devices now so I keep a large stock of Microsoft's
top of the line beastys as insurance - exactly for the reasons you state.
Amazing how so many of us rely so heavily on these things and how faulty
they can become. Even a small grain of salt can mess up your CADday.
Gates and his cronies grew up cons. They're like so many of the Silicon
Gulch versions I dealt with for many years. It's all they've ever known but
for how to "borrow" others' ideas and convert them for personal gain (worked
at the "Big X" for a time and saw what they loaned out). When you have this
mentality, quality is only as good as the current version. What happens next
is a bigger con promising all previous versions' problems will be a thing of
the past. For this type quality, we pay ever increasing prices at the pump.
It's universal and until we all make a stand, it continues unabated. Who's
fault is it anyway?
The "culture" at Microsuck will not change. Therefore, its quality will not
improve. That is why I started this diatribe. It is an example of management
cloning itself regularly while the rest of us see the same old picture at a
much higher ticket price.
Thanks Brian. I needed that.
MoonMan
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Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 07:12:52 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ENIG solder joint appearance
X-To: Stephen Gregory <[log in to unmask]>
Steve,
Like you say, it never ends. Not a criticism, but I stopped using silver
back in 1888 or so. Yes, I said 1888.
As we've all seen, I just never get used to a solder joint not having been
formed over that minute amount of gold as in ENIG. You know my OPINION
concerning HASL. Like you, I got over shiney years ago but often yearn for
that as a required attribute. The key word is attribute - not a variable as
in quality or reliability numbers.
You have all the evidence, from outstanding sources you indicated, plus that
recognized throughout industry. I think next week's discussion should be
rested early in your favor.
MoonMan
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Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 09:40:40 EST
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
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From: "<Rudy Sedlak>" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Off Topic:The MoonMan has a "Microsoft Moment"
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We held out, and probably were the last company with a network to switch to
Weindoz, but finally was forced to do it by the Y2K non-issue.
We had more support issues, and system failures in the first 3 months using
Weindoz than we had in the previous 10 years on the old DOS system.
The good news is this is a "metastable" situation. (I had the term
"metastable" explained to me by being told to imagine a pyramid balancing on
its point.) Everybody knows all of this, and there are people right now
spending their professional careers trying to give us non-Microswill
choices....so this WILL change.
Slowly, it wll get right, the economic "pressure" is to great....
Unfortunately it will be WAY too slowly for most of us.
Rudy Sedlak
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Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 09:04:13 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Off Topic:The MoonMan has a "Microsoft Moment"
X-To: "<Rudy Sedlak>" <[log in to unmask]>
Don't ever mind waiting a bit for a better thing. Microsuck isn't getting
that way. What's more, the folks who were duped into giving up some fairly
good ideas that would have given MS some competition, were as much to blame.
I'm talking about the original DOS guys, Xerox (giving Apple GUI), and the
Digital Who? folks who sold out as well. All this in the name of greed.
I'm talking quality here. Quality is pure and simple when processes are
properly managed - starting withi top management. It doesn't matter if it's
a solder joint or software.
I don't understand why people don't understand they will make more money,
while enduring longer and making more customers happy, by doing it right
withougt regard to returns and lousy customer service. I can give, as you
all can, many more examples of this mentality.
I have a friend who has a brother who is about to go belly up, in the
electronics business, because of poor quality. Poor bastard now thinks ISO
will get more customers. He doesn't give a damn about quality - only getting
more customers to get more money. ISO, in this case and so many others, my ass.
My concern, now that the MS monopoly hasn't suffered, is why we continue
supporting poor quality anything let alone something as important as an OS.
The monopoly cannot be broken or we would all suffer more than can be
imagined. However, I'm waiting for something beyond Linux to enter a race
that really never started.
Rudy, I like that pointy thing analogy. I just wonder which tip should be
pointed down or up, for that matter.
Quality is what I'm talking about be it through evolution, taking as long as
required. Again, without management dedication to it, IT AIN'T GOING TO
HAPPEN. and we're all stupid for paying for poor quality anything. I'm one
of the worst offenders - realizing this as I write this stuff.
MoonMan
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Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 17:14:57 +0200
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Brian Ellis <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Off Topic:The MoonMan has a "Microsoft Moment"
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Rudy
I'd change to Linux like a shot ... if only I could get it to work :-(
Seriously, the problem there is the paucity of drivers and software. OK
for nerds who know how to programme these and have the time to fart
around. There is, for example, very little choice available in the CAD
field. There is Vutrax available as a professional system for
electronics CAD with a decent router, but not much else that I know of,
other than some home systems. There isn't even a manufacturer's driver
for any of my 3 printers or scanner or digicam or DV camcorder or a
decent video editing package. Life is so sad.
Actually DOS 6.2 was a good OS once you came to terms with it. It's
these bloody bloatware Windows thingummies that cause us all the trash.
The trouble is that the market was driven by the public who were unable
to click onto a DOS menu item but had to have a pretty screen.
Brian
"" wrote:
>
> We held out, and probably were the last company with a network to switch to
> Weindoz, but finally was forced to do it by the Y2K non-issue.
>
> We had more support issues, and system failures in the first 3 months using
> Weindoz than we had in the previous 10 years on the old DOS system.
>
> The good news is this is a "metastable" situation. (I had the term
> "metastable" explained to me by being told to imagine a pyramid balancing on
> its point.) Everybody knows all of this, and there are people right now
> spending their professional careers trying to give us non-Microswill
> choices....so this WILL change.
>
> Slowly, it wll get right, the economic "pressure" is to great....
> Unfortunately it will be WAY too slowly for most of us.
>
> Rudy Sedlak
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 19:29:11 +0200
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Brian Ellis <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Off Topic:The MoonMan has a "Microsoft Moment"
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Rudy
And I forget to mention that Micros..t products are also ALMOST the only
ones hit by viruses and suchlike. This why I use Word and Excel only to
read/edit incoming files, with strict protection, and I NEVER use
Outlook in any flavour. Of course, the virus authors go for the biggest
market where they can cause the most harm, but they also go for the
software with the most security flaws which, by sheer coincidence, of
course, happens to come form this same producer.
Brian
"" wrote:
>
> We held out, and probably were the last company with a network to switch to
> Weindoz, but finally was forced to do it by the Y2K non-issue.
>
> We had more support issues, and system failures in the first 3 months using
> Weindoz than we had in the previous 10 years on the old DOS system.
>
> The good news is this is a "metastable" situation. (I had the term
> "metastable" explained to me by being told to imagine a pyramid balancing on
> its point.) Everybody knows all of this, and there are people right now
> spending their professional careers trying to give us non-Microswill
> choices....so this WILL change.
>
> Slowly, it wll get right, the economic "pressure" is to great....
> Unfortunately it will be WAY too slowly for most of us.
>
> Rudy Sedlak
>
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Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 15:31:16 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: David Douthit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: TOO MUCH?
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Earl,
Buy Apple!!!
David A. Douthit
Manager
LoCan LLC
Earl Moon wrote:
> Brian,
>
> Very well stated, as usual, providing images of a mousy sort. I knew you
> know lots of stuff, but I didn't know you were/are a world famous rodent
> resuscitator. Outstanding surgical skills. Too bad they couldn't be used on
> the world's richest man's conscience. A lobotomy or sorts might make his
> quality dedication a bit stronger. A shame he's all most of can count on to
> make himself richer.
>
> I know the mouse of which you speak. I to tried to move to wired optical
> but, because of exactly your problem, I returned to the conojones variety.
> My saying used to be, before my illuminated pointing device emitted its last
> photon. no Raton cojones aqui.
>
> Worked with Logitech some time back. Unlike Microsuck, their balls were too
> small so skipping and lack of resolution was a problem. Tried to tell them
> larger is better but they continued making not so well endowed versions. I
> wouldn't consider their devices now so I keep a large stock of Microsoft's
> top of the line beastys as insurance - exactly for the reasons you state.
> Amazing how so many of us rely so heavily on these things and how faulty
> they can become. Even a small grain of salt can mess up your CADday.
>
> Gates and his cronies grew up cons. They're like so many of the Silicon
> Gulch versions I dealt with for many years. It's all they've ever known but
> for how to "borrow" others' ideas and convert them for personal gain (worked
> at the "Big X" for a time and saw what they loaned out). When you have this
> mentality, quality is only as good as the current version. What happens next
> is a bigger con promising all previous versions' problems will be a thing of
> the past. For this type quality, we pay ever increasing prices at the pump.
> It's universal and until we all make a stand, it continues unabated. Who's
> fault is it anyway?
>
> The "culture" at Microsuck will not change. Therefore, its quality will not
> improve. That is why I started this diatribe. It is an example of management
> cloning itself regularly while the rest of us see the same old picture at a
> much higher ticket price.
>
> Thanks Brian. I needed that.
>
> MoonMan
>
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Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 22:00:38 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: TOO MUCH?
X-To: "David A. Douthit" <[log in to unmask]>
David,
Only if I want to make a pie. Won't ever be doing that.
Earl
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 02:11:08 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Jeff Seeger <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Applied CAD Knowledge, Inc.
Subject: Re: Off Topic:The MoonMan has a "Microsoft Moment"
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,
What you gents are pointing out are the reasons I've quit
using any Microsloth products, for several years. Unix
has been very very good for me.
Sadly I cannot say the same about our whole outfit, as the
office stuff and two of our CAD proggies remain mired in
the Windoze world, to my chagrin and that of our Sysop.
In fact, maybe some of you could help. If you use CAM350,
perhaps you could add your voice to those of us who would
like to keep it running on Unix. Perhaps if enough of us
call and beg...
Cheers,
--
Jeff Seeger Applied CAD Knowledge Inc
Chief Technical Officer Tyngsboro, MA 01879
jseeger "at" appliedcad "dot" com 978 649 9800
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 09:13:10 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "d. terstegge" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Off Topic:The MoonMan has a "Microsoft Moment"
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With programs like "Virtual PC" and "Vmware" you can install a Windows OS =
under Linux. That way you can still use your favourite CAD-programs, while =
not without the Micro$oft troubles in your other applications.
Daan Terstegge
SMT Centre
Thales Communications
Unclassified mail
Personal Website: http://www.smtinfo.net
>>> Brian Ellis <[log in to unmask]> 01/06 4:14 pm >>>
Rudy
I'd change to Linux like a shot ... if only I could get it to work :-(
Seriously, the problem there is the paucity of drivers and software. OK
for nerds who know how to programme these and have the time to fart
around. There is, for example, very little choice available in the CAD
field. There is Vutrax available as a professional system for
electronics CAD with a decent router, but not much else that I know of,
other than some home systems. There isn't even a manufacturer's driver
for any of my 3 printers or scanner or digicam or DV camcorder or a
decent video editing package. Life is so sad.
Actually DOS 6.2 was a good OS once you came to terms with it. It's
these bloody bloatware Windows thingummies that cause us all the trash.
The trouble is that the market was driven by the public who were unable
to click onto a DOS menu item but had to have a pretty screen.
Brian
"" wrote:
>
> We held out, and probably were the last company with a network to switch =
to
> Weindoz, but finally was forced to do it by the Y2K non-issue.
>
> We had more support issues, and system failures in the first 3 months =
using
> Weindoz than we had in the previous 10 years on the old DOS system.
>
> The good news is this is a "metastable" situation. (I had the term
> "metastable" explained to me by being told to imagine a pyramid =
balancing on
> its point.) Everybody knows all of this, and there are people right now
> spending their professional careers trying to give us non-Microswill
> choices....so this WILL change.
>
> Slowly, it wll get right, the economic "pressure" is to great....
> Unfortunately it will be WAY too slowly for most of us.
>
> Rudy Sedlak
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 10:10:37 +0100
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Matthias Mansfeld <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Matthias Mansfeld Elektronik
Subject: Re: Off Topic:The MoonMan has a "Microsoft Moment"
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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On 7 Jan 2002 at 9:13, d. terstegge wrote:
> With programs like "Virtual PC" and "Vmware" you can install a Windows
> OS under Linux. That way you can still use your favourite
> CAD-programs, while not without the Micro$oft troubles in your other
> applications.
.. but I don't think that te usual licensing systems (especially the
hardware based like dongle or node-locked on your network adapter MAC
number) would ru under any type of Windows Emulation. Anybody any
experiences here?
Regards
Matthias Mansfeld-----------------------------------------------
Matthias Mansfeld Elektronik
* Printed Circuit Board Design and Assembly
Am Langhoelzl 11, D-85540 Haar, GERMANY
Phone: +49-89-4620 0937, Fax: +49-89-4620 0938
E-Mail: [log in to unmask]
Internet: http://www.mansfeld-elektronik.de
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 13:16:33 +0200
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Brian Ellis <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Off Topic:The MoonMan has a "Microsoft Moment"
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These converters are based on WINE. My experience is that they work on
many simple apps but are hopeless for complex ones. The WINE people, who
developed the converters, are much more cautious than the guys who have
wrapped them into commercial packages. In any case, it doesn't get round
the sloppy programming that Windows imposes, so you get the worst of
both and the advantages of neither (unless they are written in Java, in
which case you should not need WINE, in any case).
Brian
"" wrote:
>
> We held out, and probably were the last company with a network to switch to
> Weindoz, but finally was forced to do it by the Y2K non-issue.
>
> We had more support issues, and system failures in the first 3 months using
> Weindoz than we had in the previous 10 years on the old DOS system.
>
> The good news is this is a "metastable" situation. (I had the term
> "metastable" explained to me by being told to imagine a pyramid balancing on
> its point.) Everybody knows all of this, and there are people right now
> spending their professional careers trying to give us non-Microswill
> choices....so this WILL change.
>
> Slowly, it wll get right, the economic "pressure" is to great....
> Unfortunately it will be WAY too slowly for most of us.
>
> Rudy Sedlak
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 06:03:17 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Off Topic:The MoonMan has a "Microsoft Moment"
X-To: Jeff Seeger <[log in to unmask]>
Jeff,
What do you mean about CAM 350 and UNIX? I always take my version with me,
wherever there is no CAM software loaded, and use it but I never really
considered in not being capable of running in UNIX. Just never noticed, I guess.
Earl
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 12:38:47 -0000
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Mike Fenner <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: TOO MUCH?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Still using a mouse? How quaint! Suggest you take a peek at Wacom's
Grapphire. This gives you a cordless mouse, a pressure sensitive cordless
stylus and a pad about the same as the usual rodent play area. Cost is about
the same as you paid for your Microsoft optical mouse.
It's so much easier to use the stylus for CAD and graphical work (you can
even use the other end as an eraser just like a real pencil). However likely
you will find, like me, that you never actually use the mouse in any program
of any sort after the first 10 minutes familiarisation with the stylus.
Downside: I assume there is a slight resources overhead, using a mouse on
other computers is a nuisance.
Happy New Year
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Brian Ellis
Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 8:20 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] TOO MUCH?
Earl
As you bring up the subject, allow me to recount another Microsoft
service glitch. A little over two years ago, Microsoft brought out the
Intellimouse Explorer, an optical mouse which worked on a new idea. I
bought two of these rodents and was delighted with their performance: a
zillion times better than those things whose balls rotated, especially
for precision work like CAD (in the distant past, I used the
MouseSystems optical mice, but they never made the jump into Win32).
After about a year, one of them stopped working reliably, followed by
the other, a couple of months later.
As Microsoft has zero service for where I live, I phoned the only number
remotely relevant that I could find (an intercontinental call to
Ireland). After being passed from Ireland to England to Germany, in all
45 minutes, I was told that they would replace them, with a tacit
admission that there was a systematic fault.
Of course, nothing happened. An e-mail with their reference number
elicited no response. I've been waiting now for over a year with two
rodents.
Fed up, I decided to have a look at them myself. On taking one of them
apart, I found the cable went from a plug on the PCB up the side and
around the top edge and, on reaching the centre, made a sharp 90° turn
to come out. There is no strain relief of any sort at this point. My
diagnosis was simple: one of the wires broke at this point from the
constant flexing in normal use. It would have been simple to avoid, by
an elastomeric sleeve which would prevent flexing on the sharp
right-angled bend. Of course, someone should have known that such a
sharp bend was bad practice, anyway. I decided on some simple surgery to
repair the caudal dislocation. Careful use of a scalpel showed where the
intervertebral disc had slipped, causing damage to the central nervous
system and I cut it back to a cm above the point: I then rejoined the
nerves by fusing them with a tin lead alloy to where they entered the
brain, eliminating the plug and socket. This worked fine. I did the same
with the other, but with an improvement: I heat-shrank some sleeving
over the cable past the bend and gouged a wider path for it with a Swiss
Army Knife. The first one suffered from a caudal dislocation again after
a few months, but the second one is still working.
I was recently in a large computer supermarket and had a look at the
mice. The same, excellent, model is on sale still. I carefully examined
it. Have Microsoft improved it at where the tail leaves the animal's
body? You must be joking! It is EXACTLY the same as it was two years
earlier. Can you buy replacement cables? Not on your nelly! (Most people
with a small cross-head screwdriver could change it in ten minutes,
given instructions.) OK, I paid only 75 bucks each for them, but that's
a small price to lose their reputation for hardware, just as much I
offer them 0/10 for their software.
I found that Logitech were now offering an equivalent. It looked as if
the cable on them was slightly better supported at the exit, but I
suspect that it, too, went through a sharp bend. Unfortunately, the
Logitech cable was far too rigid for a mouse, so I didn't buy one.
Logitech also offer an optical wireless mouse, but I fear that this
would not be a real answer, as my desk is always cluttered and I fear
the line of sight would constantly be interrupted (and it was hellishly
expensive).
So, Earl, your story about X-boxes does not surprise me. Microsoft have
never been good at customer relations and I don't suppose that they ever
will be as long as William Gates Jr wishes to fill his pockets with
spondulacks, in preference to spending 1% of his fortune to ensure that
his customers were happy. Or, perhaps, the gentleman in question
realises that it would be a damn sight more than 1% to repair all his
customer relations. A few months ago, he was interviewed by the BBC
economist, Paddy O'Connell, who tried on three occasions to get him to
apologise for the tort he had caused Microsoft users in the past through
faults on Windows systems. In each case, Bill adroitly side-stepped the
issue with a clever non sequitur, while not denying that the faults
existed. I believe that he must be a world leader in amorality.
Brian
Earl Moon wrote:
>
> Ok folks,
>
> I think it's obvious to some who care, and I hope some do, I tend to go a
> little off the deep end with this quality thing. I abhor poor quality
> anything. Used to be, maybe still is, an auto parts lifetime warranty
sucked
> because you had to take the alternator, or whatever, back every month, if
> fortunate, and get another. Though the replacement part was "free," just
the
> replacement effort alone, for me, was worth more than the damn part. Well,
I
> got sick and tired of it and changed the whole industry single handed.
> Believe that? I doubt it.
>
> With nothing happening on this site I'm reaching deep to stir the pot this
> time while being bored out of my mind here in Michigan. Hell, it ain't
even
> snowing but the temps about nothing. Well, you're probably getting as
tired
> of my rants as I am writing them, but consider the following:
>
> SEATTLE (AP) - Hundreds of people who bought Microsoft's hot new Xbox
gaming
> console over the holidays received defective systems, and some said they
had
> to wait weeks and endure shoddy customer service before their systems were
> fixed.
>
> While analysts say the number of flawed consoles is probably too small to
> spell serious production troubles, they caution that the long repair times
> may harm the software giant in its first major foray into hardware.
>
> John Kreis bought an Xbox the day it came out. But the 31-year-old Chicago
> man's $300 system stopped working almost immediately. Kreis said it took a
> month of aggravation with Xbox customer service before he got a
replacement.
>
> ``The whole thing that was so frustrating (was) just the fact that still
to
> this day I'm waiting for a call back just to explain to me what
happened,''
> he said.
>
> The Associated Press spoke with about a dozen Xbox users who complained of
a
> game system that never worked or worked for a few hours or days before
> freezing up. Most called the customer service response poor.
>
> ``I'm taking my Christmas decorations down and (my son) hasn't gotten to
> play with his Christmas toys yet,'' Debbie Mason, of Uniontown, Pa., said
> Thursday.
>
> She had just been told in her ninth call to customer service that, despite
> an earlier promise that the system would be sent back that day, it turned
> out to be broken again.
>
> Microsoft sales and marketing director John O'Rourke said fewer than 1
> percent of the Microsoft units - 10,000 units in this case - have proven
> faulty. Analysts say that's in line with the industry standard, and
> competitor Nintendo reported a comparable rate for its new GameCube.
>
> But analyst Rob Enderle of Giga Information Systems warned that a
company's
> response to those customers who do have problems often is more important
> than how many units actually break.
>
> ``If 200 people have a really bad experience and they're vocal, then the
> impression is the product's bad,'' he said.
>
> During the Christmas season, Enderle added, any return that takes more
than
> a week is ``a horribly long time.''
>
> For Microsoft, which shipped about 1.5 million Xboxes over the holidays,
the
> stakes are high. With the highly regarded Xbox, the company is battling
> Nintendo and Sony in a hyper-competitive game console market.
>
> Microsoft already has been plagued with rumors of problems at its Mexican
> production plant after it delayed its U.S. launch date by a week - to Nov.
> 15 - and pushed back its Japan launch as well.
>
> The company has denied any major problems.
>
> Plenty of people who bought defective Xboxes got decent customer service.
> Marc Patri, 49, said in an e-mail that his Xbox was repaired and returned
> within five days - which O'Rourke called the time it should take a unit to
> get repaired.
>
> Microsoft uses outside companies, including San Antonio, Texas-based
> Harte-Hanks Inc. and Sykes Enterprises in Tampa, Fla., to handle its Xbox
> customer service. Xbox repairs are handled by Solectron Corp. of Milpitas,
> Calif.
>
> A spokesman for Harte-Hanks declined to comment. The other companies did
not
> respond to calls seeking comment.
>
> Microsoft has seen no pattern of specific problems, said O'Rourke, and
heard
> of no major delays with repairs.
>
> Kreis said it took nearly two weeks before he even received an empty box
to
> send his faulty Xbox back for repair.
>
> And he got conflicting answers: At one point, customer service couldn't
find
> his records. Another representative told him he would get a new unit
rather
> than have his old one repaired. Another agent told him they never send new
> units out.
>
> Still later, someone called him and asked him how he was enjoying his new
> Xbox - which he'd never received.
>
> Finally, on Dec. 10, the repaired Xbox came back.
>
> ``I'll be loyal for a while,'' said Kreis. ``But I'm hoping I never have
to
> call support again, that's for sure.''
>
> Any reactions? I mean, is 1% acceptable or what about the rest of the BS
> these people put on us, or are we to blame for wanting untested stuff
before
> its time? What about the SUV tire thing? Does any of this really matter?
>
> MoonMan
>
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 07:56:46 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Kasprzak, Bill (sys) USX" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Off Topic:The MoonMan has a "Microsoft Moment"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Hello folks, hope the new year has been good so far.
I need to respond to items that have been kicked around this forum.
First off, I don't work for Microsoft and I am not a major share holder,
affiliate etc. I can remember the early days of home computing where we had
Apple, TI, Commodore, Atari, Osborne and countless numbers of other name
brands. Each system had its own operating system and none were the least bit
compatible wit each other. Finally IBM came out with the PC with a whole set
of models, AT, XT etc. At that time MS-DOS started to become the main
operating system and software was written so that whichever PC you bought
you could use the software. The rest is history. Thinking back to those
times and looking at where we are today is truly a remarkable phenomenon.
The fact that the Microsoft Windows operating systems developed of the years
as the "de facto" worldwide standard has enabled all of us to participate in
this forum. I for one, don't have a problem with Microsoft. If folks are
having problems with hardware items from Microsoft with Xboxes, Mouses or
whatever, that's one thing, but it should not result in a forum wide
slamming of the whole company. (eg Microsloth, Microsuck, etc). If you think
you can come up with a better operating system, then do it. After all we
have GM, Ford, Toyota, etc supplying the world with transportation systems.
Bill Kasprzak
Moog Inc.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Seeger [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 2:11 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Off Topic:The MoonMan has a "Microsoft Moment"
>
> ,
>
> What you gents are pointing out are the reasons I've quit
> using any Microsloth products, for several years. Unix
> has been very very good for me.
>
> Sadly I cannot say the same about our whole outfit, as the
> office stuff and two of our CAD proggies remain mired in
> the Windoze world, to my chagrin and that of our Sysop.
>
> In fact, maybe some of you could help. If you use CAM350,
> perhaps you could add your voice to those of us who would
> like to keep it running on Unix. Perhaps if enough of us
> call and beg...
>
> Cheers,
> --
>
> Jeff Seeger Applied CAD Knowledge Inc
> Chief Technical Officer Tyngsboro, MA 01879
> jseeger "at" appliedcad "dot" com 978 649 9800
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 08:08:29 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Bill Raymond <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Off Topic:The MoonMan has a "Microsoft Moment"
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
well, all I can say is now I know who NOT to go to when looking for an
objective opinion.
bill...
> What you gents are pointing out are the reasons I've quit
> using any Microsloth products, for several years. Unix
> has been very very good for me.
>
> Sadly I cannot say the same about our whole outfit, as the
> office stuff and two of our CAD proggies remain mired in
> the Windoze world, to my chagrin and that of our Sysop.
>
> In fact, maybe some of you could help. If you use CAM350,
> perhaps you could add your voice to those of us who would
> like to keep it running on Unix. Perhaps if enough of us
> call and beg...
>
> Cheers,
> --
>
> Jeff Seeger Applied CAD Knowledge Inc
> Chief Technical Officer Tyngsboro, MA 01879
> jseeger "at" appliedcad "dot" com 978 649 9800
>
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 07:04:52 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Off Topic:The MoonMan has a "Microsoft Moment"
X-To: "Kasprzak, Bill (esd) USX" <[log in to unmask]>
Ah, the message I've been awaiting. Sadly, I can't come up with a response
to a true believer's faith.
Ahmen!
MoonMan
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 14:14:46 +0100
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Matthias Mansfeld <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Matthias Mansfeld Elektronik
Subject: OT: dead rodents, was: Re: [TN] TOO MUCH?
In-Reply-To: <006301c19778$40cb75b0$f502a8c0@ukomfenner>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable
Brian Ellis wrote
[... story with dead mice shortened]
> Fed up, I decided to have a look at them myself. On taking one of them
> apart, I found the cable went from a plug on the PCB up the side and
> around the top edge and, on reaching the centre, made a sharp 90=B0 turn
> to come out. There is no strain relief of any sort at this point.
been there often. Same story with many different mice from great brands an=
d
noname. My latest noname (=3DOEM Logitech) mouse however is fine - good st=
rain
relief and cable sleeve.
May I contribute another mouse story? Repeated cable repairs were once (fe=
w
years ago) the reason for a bunch of additional work to keep my PCs runnin=
g :-(
no blood nor tears but much sweat ;-)
I had a standard PS2 2-buttons noname mouse and I had to repair the cable =
rather
often. Once, it was broken again but too short to repair it one more time.=
Thus I
decided to dig out my old noname 3-button serial mouse. Installed it, trie=
d to locate
the correct mouse driver (W95 navigation without mouse!!!!) probably too o=
ften
said "yes" "driver not found" "ignore", system rebooted, system hung. Trie=
d to
reboot in safe mode for restoring a standard mose driver, but hey, navigat=
ing
without mouse on a VGA "block graphic" resolution on a dektop optimized fo=
r
1600x1200 screen is a bit boring, if not impossible. ....decided to restor=
e the
system partition backup from the evening before. Did it, rebooted, but hey=
what's
this? the desktop was in 1600x1200 rather garbled. Then I started to think=
, had to
understand that new scrambled settings mixed with an old backup are at lea=
st
strange. Took some cups of coffee, breathed deeply and formatted the syste=
m
partition. Then started (the first time ever) the disaster recovery featur=
e from my
backup SW and let it restore the entire system partition. Thanks to God it=
ran
well........ praised Him and my good old Cheyenne Backup for W95.
Regards
Matthias Mansfeld
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 07:20:33 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: OT: dead rodents, was: Re: [TN] TOO MUCH?
X-To: Matthias Mansfeld <[log in to unmask]>
What we go through to keep 'em flying! I just responded to a friend, off
forum, concerning the computer industry in general. Only bought one "canned"
computer. Always built mine from parts I belive are best.
My biggest gripe, even beyond Microsoft, is/was the damn cases and the fact
you cannot avoiding cutting your hands on the sheetmetal. Yeh, I know - what
a wimp! The newer ATX types now have roled and smoothed edges so it's not as
much a problem as a few years ago. That's really minor compared to the fact
there are no less than 5 different screw sizes used to build any system.
Talk about a quality problem. No let's don't.
The following is what I sent off line:
You said a mouthful Steve. Hate those canned computers as well. Build my own
but always running into some kind of trouble so I keep two that are
identical. No matter, I have two identical hard drives in each one so I can
do a drive copy one to the other about once a month. I'm my customer service
and do I get pissed at me from time to time.
Got two newer idiot boxes now with Maxtor hard drives. I know, that's nuts
but couldn't get my favorite IBMers when I built them. Only good thing about
Maxtor is their return policy. There isn't one. Just send in the old and get
the next bad one sent almost immediately. To think I designed some of their
crap a few years back when a 540 mb type cost 900 dollars. Oh yes, now I
remember why quality often suffers - low cost not quality driven stuff but
it still works pretty well.
MoonMan
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 14:16:34 -0000
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Graham Naisbitt <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Too Much
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/related;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C19785.E9369EC0"
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C19785.E9369EC0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C19785.E9369EC0"
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Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Observing Earls lengthy missive and the subsequent responses, I thought you
might all appreciate the following:
Source: Harvard Business School (Business Week)
Pass it on to the boss?
Regards, Graham Naisbitt
[log in to unmask]
www.concoat.co.uk
For instant access to Product Data Sheets register on the Tech-Shot area of
http://www.concoat.co.uk
Concoat Limited
Alasan House, Albany Park
CAMBERLEY GU16 7PH UK
Phone: +44 (0)1276 691100
Fax: +44 (0)1276 691227
Mobile: +44 (0)79 6858 2121
------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C19785.E9369EC0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D190550114-07012002>Observing Earls=20
lengthy missive and the subsequent responses, I thought you might all =
appreciate=20
the following:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P><STRONG><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><IMG=20
src=3D"cid:190550114@07012002-35ee"><BR></FONT></STRONG></P>
<P><SPAN class=3D190550114-07012002></SPAN><FONT size=3D4><FONT=20
face=3DArial><STRONG>S<SPAN =
class=3D190550114-07012002>ource: <?xml:namespace=20
prefix =3D p ns =3D "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:powerpoint" =
/><p:colorscheme=20
colors=3D"#FFFFFF,#000000,#808080,#000000,#00CC99,#3333CC,#CCCCFF,#B2B2B2=
"></p:colorscheme>=20
Harvard Business School (Business =
Week)</SPAN></STRONG></FONT></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D190550114-07012002>Pass it =
on to the=20
boss?</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D190550114-07012002></P>
<DIV class=3DO v:shape=3D"_x0000_s3074"></DIV>
<P><STRONG><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Regards, Graham=20
Naisbitt</FONT></STRONG></SPAN><BR></FONT><FONT size=3D2><STRONG><FONT=20
face=3DArial>[log in to unmask]<BR><FONT color=3D#000000><A=20
href=3D"http://www.concoat.co.uk/">www.concoat.co.uk</A></FONT></FONT></S=
TRONG></FONT></P>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>For instant access to Product Data =
Sheets register=20
on the Tech-Shot area of http://<A=20
href=3D"http://www.concoat.co.uk/">www.concoat.co.uk</A> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG>Concoat=20
Limited =
<BR>Alasan=20
House, Albany Park<BR>CAMBERLEY GU16 7PH UK<BR>Phone: +44 (0)1276 =
691100<BR>Fax:=20
+44 (0)1276 691227<BR>Mobile: +44 (0)79 6858 2121=20
</STRONG></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C19785.E9369EC0--
------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C19785.E9369EC0--
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 08:07:55 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Too Much
X-To: Graham Naisbitt <[log in to unmask]>
That's exaclty my motive.
Earl
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 08:24:11 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Too Much
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Graham,
Since the listserv strips attachments, perhaps you can forward the image to
Steve Gregory's web site.
Doug
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 09:04:26 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: David Hillman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ENIG solder joint appearance
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi Steve! Take a look in section 4 (solders) and paragraph 9.2.4 solder
connections of the JSTD-001 handbook - those sections contain some good
information of why a solder joint may or may not be "bright and shiny". It
has been very interesting to see the "bright and shiny" dinosaur move
toward extinction as Collins has been slowing implementing alternative pwb
finishes. Nearly all of the new pwb finishes (gold, silver, tin, palladium)
result in a solder joint appearance which does not look like the appearance
a HASL pwb finish produces. Was there a specific reason why someone wanted
a "bright and shiny" solder joint or was it just a culture shock issue?
Dave Hillman
Rockwell Collins
[log in to unmask]
Stephen Gregory <[log in to unmask]>@ipc.org> on 01/04/2002 09:18:03 PM
Please respond to "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
cc:
Subject: [TN] ENIG solder joint appearance
Hi All,
About to get into a discussion concerning ENIG PCB's, and solder joint
appearance.
I've used a 2% silver solder paste because from past history at other
employers, it did seem to make a difference in the overall appearance,
surface, and otherwise, for the better...
But from my perspective, ENIG plated PCB joints, won't ever look like the
joints on a HASL plated PCB. A 2% silver will make things look a little
better (In my humble opinion), but they still won't be as bright and
sparkly
as a HASL joint will exhibit...
But is that really a problem?
I know what the J-STD-001, and the -610 says, but I'm about to face some
concerns from one of our customers that the solder doesn't look as shiney
as
it should be ( I think)...bottomline, they have some concerns about the
solder...the boards in question are ENIG...
I know this has been talked about over and over again, and I used a 2%
silver
solder to try and make things look a little better. It does, but the joints
still aren't as shiney as a HASL joint....they won't be as long as you have
gold in the equation, but that doesn't mean that the joint is bad...
Next week is gonna be fun...
-Steve Gregory-
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 17:17:03 +0200
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Brian Ellis <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Off Topic:The MoonMan has a "Microsoft Moment"
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Bill
Apocryphal story:
Bill Gates was chatting with the bossman of one of the Big Three car
makers at the Davos Economic Forum and said that if he were in charge,
he could get the price of cars down to a thousand bucks. The car guy
replied that he could, too, but he wouldn't want to market cars that
crashed twice per day. :-)
Brian
"Kasprzak, Bill (sys) USX" wrote:
>
> Hello folks, hope the new year has been good so far.
>
> I need to respond to items that have been kicked around this forum.
>
> First off, I don't work for Microsoft and I am not a major share holder,
> affiliate etc. I can remember the early days of home computing where we had
> Apple, TI, Commodore, Atari, Osborne and countless numbers of other name
> brands. Each system had its own operating system and none were the least bit
> compatible wit each other. Finally IBM came out with the PC with a whole set
> of models, AT, XT etc. At that time MS-DOS started to become the main
> operating system and software was written so that whichever PC you bought
> you could use the software. The rest is history. Thinking back to those
> times and looking at where we are today is truly a remarkable phenomenon.
> The fact that the Microsoft Windows operating systems developed of the years
> as the "de facto" worldwide standard has enabled all of us to participate in
> this forum. I for one, don't have a problem with Microsoft. If folks are
> having problems with hardware items from Microsoft with Xboxes, Mouses or
> whatever, that's one thing, but it should not result in a forum wide
> slamming of the whole company. (eg Microsloth, Microsuck, etc). If you think
> you can come up with a better operating system, then do it. After all we
> have GM, Ford, Toyota, etc supplying the world with transportation systems.
>
> Bill Kasprzak
> Moog Inc.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jeff Seeger [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> > Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 2:11 AM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: [TN] Off Topic:The MoonMan has a "Microsoft Moment"
> >
> > ,
> >
> > What you gents are pointing out are the reasons I've quit
> > using any Microsloth products, for several years. Unix
> > has been very very good for me.
> >
> > Sadly I cannot say the same about our whole outfit, as the
> > office stuff and two of our CAD proggies remain mired in
> > the Windoze world, to my chagrin and that of our Sysop.
> >
> > In fact, maybe some of you could help. If you use CAM350,
> > perhaps you could add your voice to those of us who would
> > like to keep it running on Unix. Perhaps if enough of us
> > call and beg...
> >
> > Cheers,
> > --
> >
> > Jeff Seeger Applied CAD Knowledge Inc
> > Chief Technical Officer Tyngsboro, MA 01879
> > jseeger "at" appliedcad "dot" com 978 649 9800
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 10:00:24 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: A SERIOUS QUALITY QUESTION
Kind folks,
Before I go off in the frozen tundra in my current MI location, to finish my
book, I need some input on the following:
Process control is defined as using process capabilities
in an efficient, effective, consistent manner. To say a process is
in control means the process is operating without assignable cause.
If assignable cause is found, the process is out of control, and
must be corrected, redesigned, and re-characterized. If a process is
found to be in control it does not mean it is capable of meeting
product acceptance specifications. It simply means it is consistent ? good
or bad.
Process capabilities charts (Cpk) describe the relationship between process
control and product quality. When process capabilities are statistically
proven to provide specified product quality, they are capable of providing
product meeting customer/contract requirements.
The above factors should be considered at the design concept level. Then,
DFM/CE has a firm footing so a concept may be turned into a design capable
of being manufactured as a product meeting specified customer contract
requirements.
Just a bit wordy, as usual, but do these words have validity in today?s
?just do it? world. I mean, does what Juran, and others, have been preaching
so long, have meaning for us in light of some of the previous discussions
concerning quality systems, ISO, too much restraint, not enough creative
freedom, and all the rest?
MoonMan
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 11:25:38 EST
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Werner Engelmaier <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: TOO MUCH?
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Hi Brian, Earl, David, etc,
I hope you do not think that Bill Gates, other than for his piles of money,
and Micro"suck" are unique. Good mechanical designs in electronics are very
rare; really bad ones all to common. How do you think I make it as a
reliability consultant?
I have seen fatigued electrodes in pace makers--great fun for the patient,
and windshield wiper control boards with fractured solder joints--imagine
driving on I-95 in a downpour and your windshield wipers stop.
Even Apples, I like and use the Mac platform, are not immune to lousy
mechanical designs.
These, and many other failures due to REALLY bad designs have resulted in
litigations, recalls, and big losses--economic, aggravation, and human life.
Werner
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 10:29:24 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: TOO MUCH?
X-To: Werner Engelmaier <[log in to unmask]>
Ah Werner, now you've gone and done it. I was just starting to enjoy Bian's,
and everyone else's, off the wall comments about Microsuck (I couldn't have
coined that) when you start this stuff.
I mean, what's quality anyway be it DOS, Windows, or whatever? Isn't it just
a perception? What's someone's heaven is someone else's hell, right?
Look at poor Steve and his solder joint issue. What looks good must be,
right? Tell that to a pissed off customer.
I think my book has no chance of selling, but I can give it away and say:
Enjoy,
MoonMan
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 10:37:46 -0600
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Subject: Off-Topic Microsoft Posts
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Periodically we have to send out a reminder that Technet is a technical =
forum, for discussing electronics manufacturing issues. This is one of =
those times. Since there are over 1,000 subscribers on the forum, there =
will be occasional off-topic discussions that will stir up heated =
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In consideration for all of the subscribers who use this forum for it's =
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 18:45:41 +0200
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
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From: Brian Ellis <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: TOO MUCH?
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Werner
Having worn a pacemaker for 11 years, I can concur that the electrodes
are not 100% reliable. I have had one which became "leaky": the
resistance between the inner and the sheath was down to 200 ohms.
However, the pacemaker itself monitors the resistance and the signal
compensates for it, so there is no danger to the patient. At the worst,
it will go into "alarm" mode and the pacemaker will work at a constant
rate (usually set at 40-50 bpm) which does not endanger the life of the
patient but makes life a little unpleasant for him, so he sees to it
prestissimo.
The manufacture of electrodes/cables is very difficult. They have to be
very flexible, physiologically inert, thin enough not to upset the
action of the valves they pass through, not subject to organic deposits
accumulating and reliable. The cables have a silicone insulation, so
that they are not exactly impervious. One of mine is still the original
one from January 1991 and is still behaving itself, even though it is
connected to a second pacemaker. The other, leaky, one lasted three
years after the fault was initially diagnosed and was changed at the
same time as the pacemaker, three years ago.
Cable reliability is therefore not quite as catastrophic as it sounds.
Brian
Earl Moon wrote:
>
> Ok folks,
>
> I think it's obvious to some who care, and I hope some do, I tend to go a
> little off the deep end with this quality thing. I abhor poor quality
> anything. Used to be, maybe still is, an auto parts lifetime warranty sucked
> because you had to take the alternator, or whatever, back every month, if
> fortunate, and get another. Though the replacement part was "free," just the
> replacement effort alone, for me, was worth more than the damn part. Well, I
> got sick and tired of it and changed the whole industry single handed.
> Believe that? I doubt it.
>
> With nothing happening on this site I'm reaching deep to stir the pot this
> time while being bored out of my mind here in Michigan. Hell, it ain't even
> snowing but the temps about nothing. Well, you're probably getting as tired
> of my rants as I am writing them, but consider the following:
>
> SEATTLE (AP) - Hundreds of people who bought Microsoft's hot new Xbox gaming
> console over the holidays received defective systems, and some said they had
> to wait weeks and endure shoddy customer service before their systems were
> fixed.
>
> While analysts say the number of flawed consoles is probably too small to
> spell serious production troubles, they caution that the long repair times
> may harm the software giant in its first major foray into hardware.
>
> John Kreis bought an Xbox the day it came out. But the 31-year-old Chicago
> man's $300 system stopped working almost immediately. Kreis said it took a
> month of aggravation with Xbox customer service before he got a replacement.
>
> ``The whole thing that was so frustrating (was) just the fact that still to
> this day I'm waiting for a call back just to explain to me what happened,''
> he said.
>
> The Associated Press spoke with about a dozen Xbox users who complained of a
> game system that never worked or worked for a few hours or days before
> freezing up. Most called the customer service response poor.
>
> ``I'm taking my Christmas decorations down and (my son) hasn't gotten to
> play with his Christmas toys yet,'' Debbie Mason, of Uniontown, Pa., said
> Thursday.
>
> She had just been told in her ninth call to customer service that, despite
> an earlier promise that the system would be sent back that day, it turned
> out to be broken again.
>
> Microsoft sales and marketing director John O'Rourke said fewer than 1
> percent of the Microsoft units - 10,000 units in this case - have proven
> faulty. Analysts say that's in line with the industry standard, and
> competitor Nintendo reported a comparable rate for its new GameCube.
>
> But analyst Rob Enderle of Giga Information Systems warned that a company's
> response to those customers who do have problems often is more important
> than how many units actually break.
>
> ``If 200 people have a really bad experience and they're vocal, then the
> impression is the product's bad,'' he said.
>
> During the Christmas season, Enderle added, any return that takes more than
> a week is ``a horribly long time.''
>
> For Microsoft, which shipped about 1.5 million Xboxes over the holidays, the
> stakes are high. With the highly regarded Xbox, the company is battling
> Nintendo and Sony in a hyper-competitive game console market.
>
> Microsoft already has been plagued with rumors of problems at its Mexican
> production plant after it delayed its U.S. launch date by a week - to Nov.
> 15 - and pushed back its Japan launch as well.
>
> The company has denied any major problems.
>
> Plenty of people who bought defective Xboxes got decent customer service.
> Marc Patri, 49, said in an e-mail that his Xbox was repaired and returned
> within five days - which O'Rourke called the time it should take a unit to
> get repaired.
>
> Microsoft uses outside companies, including San Antonio, Texas-based
> Harte-Hanks Inc. and Sykes Enterprises in Tampa, Fla., to handle its Xbox
> customer service. Xbox repairs are handled by Solectron Corp. of Milpitas,
> Calif.
>
> A spokesman for Harte-Hanks declined to comment. The other companies did not
> respond to calls seeking comment.
>
> Microsoft has seen no pattern of specific problems, said O'Rourke, and heard
> of no major delays with repairs.
>
> Kreis said it took nearly two weeks before he even received an empty box to
> send his faulty Xbox back for repair.
>
> And he got conflicting answers: At one point, customer service couldn't find
> his records. Another representative told him he would get a new unit rather
> than have his old one repaired. Another agent told him they never send new
> units out.
>
> Still later, someone called him and asked him how he was enjoying his new
> Xbox - which he'd never received.
>
> Finally, on Dec. 10, the repaired Xbox came back.
>
> ``I'll be loyal for a while,'' said Kreis. ``But I'm hoping I never have to
> call support again, that's for sure.''
>
> Any reactions? I mean, is 1% acceptable or what about the rest of the BS
> these people put on us, or are we to blame for wanting untested stuff before
> its time? What about the SUV tire thing? Does any of this really matter?
>
> MoonMan
>
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 10:51:01 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Off-Topic Microsoft Posts
X-To: Keach Sasamori <[log in to unmask]>
My apologies as my comments were very unprofessional though I'm sometimes
not that when confronted with same from some suppliers.
Earl Moon
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 10:54:46 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: TOO MUCH?
X-To: Brian Ellis <[log in to unmask]>
Brian,
You really are amazing and I mean that in a positive way. You start talking
about mouse cables and end up talking about life support devices in the same
way. I think this tells a quality story unto itself.
Thanks,
Earl
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 12:14:30 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Lou Hart <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Compunetix, Inc.
Subject: Re: A SERIOUS QUALITY QUESTION
Earl, let me offer 3 quotes.
The first I don't remember exactly, but everyone's heard it. (I say
"everyone", having told others any number of times "When I hear, 'Everyone
knows', I hear 'Not everyone knows'"). The one where Lord Kelvin says when
you can express your knowledge in numbers, you reached the stage of science
- or something like that.
"Understand variability", Deming.
"The key to success in engineering is understanding the variability in the
measurement process, and using that understanding to control the
variability in the manufacturing process", Hart. It could be said better.
Referring to your posting below, I would say that a process is in control
if it is consistent (stable) - its mean and variance are (to a chosen
statistical confidence) constant. In-control processes can produce lots of
bad product. Before determining a process is or is not in control, some
knowledge of the variability in the measuring process is needed.
Cpk is what I would call process performance index - a number. Cp is
process capability. Process must be in control before calculating these
indices. These indices depend on spec values, so are subject to
manipulation, especially if engineering, sales, management doesn't really
know what it wants.
Let me try to adopt the viewpoint of designers in the DFM picture. Is
manufacturing capable of providing technical guidance to designers with
regard to manufacturability, based on data and engineering rather than
speculation? In many cases, I suspect not. Maybe that is why it DFM seems
to take place so infrequently. If data and engineering are lacking, the
two groups may collaborate to generate them. Would that collaboration be
part of DFM? Lou Hart
-----Original Message-----
From: Earl Moon [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 11:00 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] A SERIOUS QUALITY QUESTION
Kind folks,
Before I go off in the frozen tundra in my current MI location, to finish
my
book, I need some input on the following:
Process control is defined as using process capabilities
in an efficient, effective, consistent manner. To say a process is
in control means the process is operating without assignable cause.
If assignable cause is found, the process is out of control, and
must be corrected, redesigned, and re-characterized. If a process is
found to be in control it does not mean it is capable of meeting
product acceptance specifications. It simply means it is consistent ? good
or bad.
Process capabilities charts (Cpk) describe the relationship between process
control and product quality. When process capabilities are statistically
proven to provide specified product quality, they are capable of providing
product meeting customer/contract requirements.
The above factors should be considered at the design concept level. Then,
DFM/CE has a firm footing so a concept may be turned into a design capable
of being manufactured as a product meeting specified customer contract
requirements.
Just a bit wordy, as usual, but do these words have validity in today?s
?just do it? world. I mean, does what Juran, and others, have been
preaching
so long, have meaning for us in light of some of the previous discussions
concerning quality systems, ISO, too much restraint, not enough creative
freedom, and all the rest?
MoonMan
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 11:18:36 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: A SERIOUS QUALITY QUESTION
X-To: Louis Hart <[log in to unmask]>
Lou,
Really outstanding. Better words and advice than most times before - for me.
The answer to your last question is, though I know you have it, the
concurrent part of the DFM formula.
Earl
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 12:31:41 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Guy Ramsey <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: A SERIOUS QUALITY QUESTION
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000B_01C19777.42353450"
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Juran in his book: Managerial Breakthrough makes a distinction between
innovation or "breakthrough" and "control". David Hoyle in his book; ISO
9000 Quality System Development Handbook associates Deming's PLAN, DO,
STUDY, ACT cycle with control and discusses the Juran "Breakthrough"
sequence.
I think the Deming cycle is more that merely a control cycle. Properly, used
the process sequence would identify the need for "Breakthrough".
I think Process Control is the act of monitoring process variables to limit
variation in process results to "common" or unassignable causes. SPC is the
use of statistics to identify when a process has come under the influence of
variation from a "special" or potentially assignable input variable(s)
Management must enable both control and breakthrough.
Breakthrough is glamorous.
Control is not a normal state, it is achieved as a result of the application
of knowledge and great effort.
How do we create a managment system that encourages innovation and control?
Maybe we should not use the term Process Control, rather Process Managment.
We don't want SPC but SPM.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Earl Moon
> Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 11:00 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] A SERIOUS QUALITY QUESTION
>
>
> Kind folks,
>
> Before I go off in the frozen tundra in my current MI location,
> to finish my
> book, I need some input on the following:
>
> Process control is defined as using process capabilities
> in an efficient, effective, consistent manner. To say a process is
> in control means the process is operating without assignable cause.
> If assignable cause is found, the process is out of control, and
> must be corrected, redesigned, and re-characterized. If a process is
> found to be in control it does not mean it is capable of meeting
> product acceptance specifications. It simply means it is consistent ? good
> or bad.
>
> Process capabilities charts (Cpk) describe the relationship
> between process
> control and product quality. When process capabilities are statistically
> proven to provide specified product quality, they are capable of providing
> product meeting customer/contract requirements.
>
> The above factors should be considered at the design concept level. Then,
> DFM/CE has a firm footing so a concept may be turned into a design capable
> of being manufactured as a product meeting specified customer contract
> requirements.
>
> Just a bit wordy, as usual, but do these words have validity in today?s
> ?just do it? world. I mean, does what Juran, and others, have
> been preaching
> so long, have meaning for us in light of some of the previous discussions
> concerning quality systems, ISO, too much restraint, not enough creative
> freedom, and all the rest?
>
> MoonMan
------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C19777.42353450
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charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE></TITLE>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.3105.105" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Juran in his book: <U>Managerial Breakthrough =
</U>makes a=20
distinction between innovation or "breakthrough" and "control". David =
Hoyle in=20
his book; <U>ISO 9000 Quality System Development Handbook</U> =
associates=20
Deming's PLAN, DO, STUDY, ACT cycle with control and discusses =
the Juran=20
"Breakthrough" sequence. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>I think the Deming cycle is more that merely a control =
cycle.=20
Properly, used the process sequence would identify the need for=20
"Breakthrough".</FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>I think Process Control is the act of monitoring =
process=20
variables to limit variation in process results to "common" or =
unassignable=20
causes. SPC is the use of statistics to identify when a process has come =
under=20
the influence of variation from a "special" or potentially assignable =
input=20
variable(s)</FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Management must enable both control and breakthrough.=20
</FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Breakthrough is glamorous. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Control is not a normal state, it is achieved as a =
result of the=20
application of knowledge and great effort</FONT><FONT size=3D2>. =
</FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>How do we create a managment system that encourages =
innovation=20
and control? Maybe we should not use the term Process Control, rather =
Process=20
Managment. We don't want SPC but SPM. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=3D2><BR><BR>> -----Original Message-----<BR>> From: =
TechNet=20
[</FONT><A href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D_blank><FONT=20
size=3D2>mailto:[log in to unmask]</FONT></A><FONT size=3D2>]On Behalf Of =
Earl=20
Moon<BR>> Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 11:00 AM<BR>> To:=20
[log in to unmask]<BR>> Subject: [TN] A SERIOUS QUALITY=20
QUESTION<BR>><BR>><BR>> Kind folks,<BR>><BR>> Before I go =
off in=20
the frozen tundra in my current MI location,<BR>> to finish =
my<BR>> book,=20
I need some input on the following:<BR>><BR>> Process control is =
defined=20
as using process capabilities<BR>> in an efficient, effective, =
consistent=20
manner. To say a process is<BR>> in control means the process is =
operating=20
without assignable cause.<BR>> If assignable cause is found, the =
process is=20
out of control, and<BR>> must be corrected, redesigned, and =
re-characterized.=20
If a process is<BR>> found to be in control it does not mean it is =
capable of=20
meeting<BR>> product acceptance specifications. It simply means it is =
consistent ? good<BR>> or bad.<BR>><BR>> Process capabilities =
charts=20
(Cpk) describe the relationship<BR>> between process<BR>> control =
and=20
product quality. When process capabilities are statistically<BR>> =
proven to=20
provide specified product quality, they are capable of providing<BR>> =
product=20
meeting customer/contract requirements.<BR>><BR>> The above =
factors should=20
be considered at the design concept level. Then,<BR>> DFM/CE has a =
firm=20
footing so a concept may be turned into a design capable<BR>> of =
being=20
manufactured as a product meeting specified customer contract<BR>>=20
requirements.<BR>><BR>> Just a bit wordy, as usual, but do these =
words=20
have validity in today?s<BR>> ?just do it? world. I mean, does what =
Juran,=20
and others, have<BR>> been preaching<BR>> so long, have meaning =
for us in=20
light of some of the previous discussions<BR>> concerning quality =
systems,=20
ISO, too much restraint, not enough creative<BR>> freedom, and all =
the=20
rest?<BR>><BR>> MoonMan<BR><BR></FONT></P></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C19777.42353450--
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 12:30:12 EST
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Joseph Fjelstad <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: A SERIOUS QUALITY QUESTION
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hello Lou,
Thanks for the quotes. All very good ones. Here is one more to consider.
"Not everything that can be counted counts and not everything that counts can
be counted." Albert Einstein
Cheers!
Joe
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>Hello Lou,
<BR>
<BR>Thanks for the quotes. All very good ones. Here is one more to consider.
<BR>
<BR>"Not everything that can be counted counts and not everything that counts can be counted." Albert Einstein
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>Cheers!
<BR>Joe</FONT></HTML>
--part1_146.779a882.296b3524_boundary--
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 11:33:44 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: A SERIOUS QUALITY QUESTION
X-To: Guy Ramsey <[log in to unmask]>
Your view of control versus management always has been my passion. I don't
believe in "controlling" anything or anyone.
If processes are well managed, product quality (depending on design
influences) will be as specified. Quality will meet customer requirements.
I certainly agree breakthrough is needed. I do not agree it is the primary
target over evolution - in most cases. I mean, if it has been done,
improvement is preferred over attempting the creation of something entirely
new or untried.
This is not to say we shouldn't seek that which is new, whether design or
process. It simply means we should seek continuous improvement, when
possible, first.
I applaud and accept your assessments.
Thank you,
Earl Moon
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 10:19:35 -0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Richard Hamilton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Off-Topic Microsoft Posts
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Keach, MoonMan, et al,
Great forum, great subject, great participants and participation. Yes,
'periodically' has its time and it appears its time has come. Public THANKS
to IPC for their support in ALL arena's.
I for one do not appreciate the way some companies do business and although
I did not partake in the thread I did read every posting and in the
interest of expanding knowledge and documenting 'new vocabulary' I would
like to present the following list for review by all. And if the discussion
continues off-line please add my address to the distribution.
Bloatware:
Metastable: (I had the term "metastable" explained to me by being told to
imagine a pyramid balancing on its point.)
Microsloth:
Microsuck:
Microswill:
Micro$oft: (Interesting note: This is the only term that Eudora spell
check does not 'tag' as misspelled)
Spondulacks:
Thingummies:
Weindoz:
Windoze:
Thanking one and all. If you would like to submit any other terms
(off-line) I would be happy to add them. Daffynitions would also be
appropriate. I will make the compiled list available to one and all later
with an announcement as to where it can be found.
Richard
At 10:37 AM 1/7/02 -0600, Keach reminded us:
>Periodically we have to send out a reminder that Technet is a technical
>forum, for discussing electronics manufacturing issues. This is one of
>those times. Since there are over 1,000 subscribers on the forum, there
>will be occasional off-topic discussions that will stir up heated
>discussion due to the subject and the number of people subscribed.
-snip-
--=====================_5071857==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
<html>
Keach, MoonMan, et al,<br>
<br>
Great forum, great subject, great participants and participation. Yes,
'periodically' has its time and it appears its time has come. Public
THANKS to IPC for their support in ALL arena's.<br>
<br>
I for one do not appreciate the way some companies do business and
although I did not partake in the thread I did read every posting and in
the interest of expanding knowledge and documenting 'new vocabulary' I
would like to present the following list for review by all. And if the
discussion continues off-line please add my address to the distribution.
<br>
<br>
<font face="Arial, Helvetica">Bloatware:<br>
<br>
Metastable: (I had the term "metastable" explained to me by
being told to imagine a pyramid balancing on its point.)<br>
<br>
Microsloth:<br>
<br>
Microsuck:<br>
<br>
Microswill:<br>
<br>
Micro$oft:
</font><font face="Arial, Helvetica" size=2><i>(Interesting note: This is
the only term that Eudora spell check does not 'tag' as misspelled)<br>
<br>
</font></i><font face="Arial, Helvetica">Spondulacks:<br>
<br>
Thingummies:<br>
<br>
Weindoz:<br>
<br>
Windoze:<br>
<br>
</font>Thanking one and all. If you would like to submit any other terms
(off-line) I would be happy to add them. Daffynitions would also be
appropriate. I will make the compiled list available to one and all later
with an announcement as to where it can be found.<br>
<br>
Richard<br>
<br>
At 10:37 AM 1/7/02 -0600, Keach reminded us:<br>
<blockquote type=cite cite>Periodically we have to send out a reminder
that Technet is a technical forum, for discussing electronics
manufacturing issues. This is one of those times. Since there are
over 1,000 subscribers on the forum, there will be occasional off-topic
discussions that will stir up heated discussion due to the subject and
the number of people subscribed. </blockquote>-snip-</html>
--=====================_5071857==_.ALT--
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 10:27:16 -0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Dan R. Johnson" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: A SERIOUS QUALITY QUESTION
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Earl,
'Splane something to me: how can you manage without control. I compare a
process that is out of control to a head less snake, always moving but not
necessarily in the right direction. Seems like managing this would consist
of occasionally kicking the darn thing where you want it to go.
Dan
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 12:29:13 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: A SERIOUS QUALITY QUESTION
X-To: "Dan R. Johnson" <[log in to unmask]>
Dan,
That's the two by four I needed between the eyes. Sure agree you must have
control before you can manage. The paradox is you must have management
before you can have control.
Remember the old business principles:
Plan, Organize, Staff, Direct, Control.
I meant, I don't want to control anything or anyone. I do want to know a
process is in control so it can be MANAGED, from that point, by responsible
individuals capable of being directed so management is satisfied up and
down, or across, the playing field.
That make any sense to you?
Earl
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 13:46:00 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Jeff Seeger <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Applied CAD Knowledge Inc
Subject: Re: Off Topic:The MoonMan has a "Microsoft Moment"
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Earl Moon wrote:
>
> Jeff,
>
> What do you mean about CAM 350 and UNIX? I always take my version with me,
> wherever there is no CAM software loaded, and use it but I never really
> considered in not being capable of running in UNIX. Just never noticed, I guess.
>
Hi Earl,
We run CAM350 on both Unix and on PCs. Sadly (for us) they
have ended Unix support. Maybe we're just lunatics but for
several reasons we can automate things two notches further
in a Unix environment. That automation is important to us.
Somehow I doubt we are the only ones who like this program
under Unix, although I may be the only guy dim enough to try
to hang onto it.
Sigh,
--
Jeff Seeger Applied CAD Knowledge Inc
Chief Technical Officer Tyngsboro, MA 01879
jseeger "at" appliedcad "dot" com 978 649 9800
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 11:11:36 -0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
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From: "Dan R. Johnson" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: A SERIOUS QUALITY QUESTION
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I'm still a bit confused. Management is the ultimate control, from a
business point I define it as getting people to do what I want them to do
with a minimum of effort on my part. Hopefully they will enjoy the whole
thing. As an effective manager I should be able to function in any position
that reports to them (although not as well since a good manager hires people
more knowable than they are), to me this implies at least a rudimentary
understanding of the processes and their control.
Could be if more management folks operated like this we wouldn't be having
some of the discussions I have been reading. When management distances
themselves from the process they start to focus on the bottom line, say good
bye to cognate thought, the $$ blind you.
The happiest I have ever been was working for a company whose owner knew how
to run the UPS software.
Dan
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 13:01:20 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Off Topic:The MoonMan has a "Microsoft Moment"
X-To: Jeff Seeger <[log in to unmask]>
Jeff,
I respect your lament. I've been using CAM350, or earlier versions of it,
for years. I don't have to tell you it's the only real alternative to the
$100,000 wonder - Valor. It costs about 1/10th as much and does a lot of the
same work.
I got my first copy free from Richard Nedball in better times. Since then,
it seems this CAM family has suffered. Please don't think this is another
attack on what coulda' been or should be. I'll help any way I can but there
are a very independent group of folks out there in the "gulch." Have to
wonder how long this can go on. Plus, my dongle is getting shorter by the
minute.
Earl
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 11:11:00 -0800
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Ahne Oosterhof <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: A SERIOUS QUALITY QUESTION
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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When the Materials are coming in as needed, when the Machines are working as
specified, when the Manpower is working as instructed, the process should be
under control, meaning the products come off the line within the parameters
specified.
IF all that is really happening, don't mess with anything, don't try to
Manage of control or change anything. Go play golf.
IF NOT, start managing.
This really looked like a Monday morning on the Technet. Somebodies had
hangovers. From complaining about Microsoft's quality to trying to figure
out how to manage quality. Actually not a very large jump. When it comes
down to it both pertain to the type of work most of us are supposed to be
doing in the first place, as I expect that most of us are doing some design
work or some assembly work or are managing either (or are advising or
consulting for those who should be doing it).
So which group is really 'responsible' for the quality of the products we
are involved in? Sure, somebody else. How good is the quality of your
product?
Regarding the 'quality' of Windows, have you ever asked yourself what would
happen to the display on your monitor if you put a poorly designed or
performing card or program in the computer? --- blue screen of death!!
Any problem inside the computer looks like a Windows problem!!!
Now back to managing,
Regards, Ahne.
PS: I know when to expect or not to expect Computer problems based on the
programs I am using. And turn off those little cute programs on the bottom
right of your computer.
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Earl Moon
Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 10:29
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] A SERIOUS QUALITY QUESTION
Dan,
That's the two by four I needed between the eyes. Sure agree you must have
control before you can manage. The paradox is you must have management
before you can have control.
Remember the old business principles:
Plan, Organize, Staff, Direct, Control.
I meant, I don't want to control anything or anyone. I do want to know a
process is in control so it can be MANAGED, from that point, by responsible
individuals capable of being directed so management is satisfied up and
down, or across, the playing field.
That make any sense to you?
Earl
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 14:18:42 EST
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Stephen Gregory <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Trace length to prevent secondary reflow...
MIME-Version: 1.0
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boundary="part1_66.1a053972.296b4e92_boundary"
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Hi All!
I was wondering if there is a "rule-of-thumb" as far as trace length when
laying out a via that is connected to a SMT pad to prevent secondary reflow
during wave solder?
We just built a board here that I think had secondary reflow on a transistor.
We didn't catch it because it is one of those JANTX ceramic leadless
transistors. The customer caught it when they tried to power-up the
board...it's a new design, so we don't have ICT or any other test yet. There
is one location on the board that .020" long traces coming from .032" vias (I
know those are big vias, huh?) that had the problem. The traces are .012"
wide, 1-oz copper.
I'm gonna plug the via holes with mask on the next run, but I was wondering
about a trace length not to go under to prevent the problem...
Thanks!!
-Steve Gregory-
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>Hi All!
<BR>
<BR>I was wondering if there is a "rule-of-thumb" as far as trace length when laying out a via that is connected to a SMT pad to prevent secondary reflow during wave solder?
<BR>
<BR>We just built a board here that I think had secondary reflow on a transistor. We didn't catch it because it is one of those JANTX ceramic leadless transistors. The customer caught it when they tried to power-up the board...it's a new design, so we don't have ICT or any other test yet. There is one location on the board that .020" long traces coming from .032" vias (I know those are big vias, huh?) that had the problem. The traces are .012" wide, 1-oz copper.
<BR>
<BR>I'm gonna plug the via holes with mask on the next run, but I was wondering about a trace length not to go under to prevent the problem...
<BR>
<BR>Thanks!!
<BR>
<BR>-Steve Gregory-</FONT></HTML>
--part1_66.1a053972.296b4e92_boundary--
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 13:10:54 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: A SERIOUS QUALITY QUESTION
X-To: "Dan R. Johnson" <[log in to unmask]>
Dan,
I understand. I'm saying that if a GOOD manager provides proper, whatever
that is, direction, process control is established by responsible
individuals acting under management direction. To do this, management will
have done its job and provided all the facilities, equipment, tools,
procedures, and other resources needed to ensure process control is established.
Once control is established, responsible individuald, under management
direction, manage processes effectively and efficiently. Thus, quality
product is effected.
Earl
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 13:18:29 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: A SERIOUS QUALITY QUESTION
X-To: Ahne Oosterhof <[log in to unmask]>
Ahne,
Right on, especially about the little things at the bottom of one's screen.
More turned of, more efficiency. I don't operate below 88% until the day is
done. Then I reboot and get rid of all the nasties.
I would say you don't manage quality - you manage processes, once in control
(remember the definition of control), to ensure product quality meets
specified requirements.
Don't forget that F8 key to tune up your system so efficiency is maximized.
Of course maximimum efficiency is a key word in any envrionment
notwithstanding windows.
Earl
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 14:41:14 EST
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Werner Engelmaier <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: TOO MUCH?
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hi Brian,
I am glad to hear that you do not have the pacemaker brand in question. What
I was talking about is the breaking of the electrode cables bringing the
signals to the heart muscle. Thus, you have a loose wire in your heart muscle
that will wander around--it therefore has to be surgically removed, which is
not an easy task because of the potential damage to the muscle. Patients with
these pacemeker models are currently being checked every 6 months--thats
between about every 20 million fatigue cycles [=heart beats].
A friend of mine has this pacemaker and he is not very happy.
Best regards,
Werner
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 13:40:54 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Staking compounds
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Good day all,
I am curious as to what all y'all use for staking compounds (to fix wires
or components in place) on your assemblies, especially if you are in the
high-rel area or aerospace sector. Thanks.
Doug Pauls
Rockwell Collins
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 11:51:44 -0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Crepeau, Phil" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Staking compounds
MIME-Version: 1.0
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hi,
trabond 927-1 or trabond 970-1n1.
phil
-----Original Message-----
From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 11:41 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Staking compounds
Good day all,
I am curious as to what all y'all use for staking compounds (to fix wires
or components in place) on your assemblies, especially if you are in the
high-rel area or aerospace sector. Thanks.
Doug Pauls
Rockwell Collins
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 14:58:37 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Graham Collins <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Staking compounds
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Doug
We use a two part epoxy to bond big components (typically things like =
axial capacitors), and for jumpers we use hot melt adhesive at 1 inch or =
less. Our application is high rel (military) vehicle, some under hood =
stuff.
regards
Graham Collins
Process Engineer,=20
Northrop Grumman
Atlantic Facility of Litton Systems Canada
(902) 873-2000 ext 6215
>>> [log in to unmask] 01/07/02 03:40PM >>>
Good day all,
I am curious as to what all y'all use for staking compounds (to fix wires
or components in place) on your assemblies, especially if you are in the
high-rel area or aerospace sector. Thanks.
Doug Pauls
Rockwell Collins
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 12:59:17 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Vertefeuille, Russell (AZ75)"
<[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hello all,
does anyone know of a supplier who can recondition 68 pin PGA's with gold
finish leads that are very oxidized? I would prefer a company on the west
coast.
Thanks,
Russ Vertefeuille
Honeywell
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 14:35:55 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Tuan Bui <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: DPMO
Greeting
Are there any software available to caculate the Opportunity of Defect. As
a prototype environment, we stencil the bare boards and place passive and
active components by hand using the UNICAM software to work with the BOM
and assembly drawing. We are currently manually count all opportunity of
defects and wonder if any software would reduce this time consuming task.
Tuan Bui
Proc. Eng.
Conexant System Inc.
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 15:49:57 EST
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Stephen Gregory <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Restoring lead finish
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="part1_a4.1f1ec72c.296b63f5_boundary"
--part1_a4.1f1ec72c.296b63f5_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hi Russ!
Do these devices go into a socket and you need to keep them gold plated? If
not,
there's a place in San Jose that does lead tinning:
http://www.sixsigmaservices.com/index.html
ADDRESS
Six Sigma
1940 Concourse Drive
San Jose, CA 95131
PHONE
(408) 526-1350
FAX
(408) 943-0447
-Steve Gregory-
> Hello all,
> does anyone know of a supplier who can recondition 68 pin PGA's with gold
> finish leads that are very oxidized? I would prefer a company on the west
> coast.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Russ Vertefeuille
> Honeywell
>
--part1_a4.1f1ec72c.296b63f5_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>Hi Russ!
<BR>
<BR>Do these devices go into a socket and you need to keep them gold plated? If not,
<BR>there's a place in San Jose that does lead tinning:
<BR>
<BR>http://www.sixsigmaservices.com/index.html
<BR>
<BR><B>ADDRESS</B>
<BR>Six Sigma
<BR>1940 Concourse Drive
<BR>San Jose, CA 95131
<BR>
<BR><B>PHONE</B>
<BR>(408) 526-1350
<BR>
<BR><B>FAX</B>
<BR>(408) 943-0447
<BR>
<BR>-Steve Gregory-
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Hello all,
<BR>does anyone know of a supplier who can recondition 68 pin PGA's with gold
<BR>finish leads that are very oxidized? I would prefer a company on the west
<BR>coast.
<BR>
<BR>Thanks,
<BR>
<BR>Russ Vertefeuille
<BR>Honeywell
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT></HTML>
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 13:52:09 -0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Elensky, Richard" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: PCB Fab Question
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Good Day to all,
My PCB fab house has been trying to correct an issue regarding the
finished size of a PTH. In our discussions, they mentioned an item I don't
quite understand and thought I would utilize the vast knowledge of forum to
get an Educated opinion... (I understand the risks involved with that
method)
We are using HASL finished boards, 8 layers, .125" thick. Nothing too wild
there.
The fab house stated they could better control the tolerance (+.003
/ -0) on a PTH if the annular ring were larger. The current ring is about
.012" larger than the radius of the hole (.213). They wish to increase the
ring by .010" to.015" as a means of controlling the amount of plating
applied to the inside of the PTH.
Is this possible?? Does the annular ring have that much control on
the amount of plating applied to the barrel of the PTH? Are they blowing
smoke to cover a process related issue?
Thank you for your interest.
Rich
Richard Elensky
Sr. Manufacturing Engineer
[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Tel: 559-292-1111 x246
Fax: 559-292-9355
Dantel
2991 North Argyle Ave.
Fresno, CA, 93727
Visit our web site at:
http:// www.dantel.com <http://www.dantel.com>
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 15:51:22 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Tuan Bui <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Software for defect caculation
I need to repost this message as suggested.
Greeting
Are there any software available to caculate the Opportunity of Defect. As
a prototype environment, we stencil the bare boards and place passive and
active components by hand using the UNICAM software to work with the BOM
and assembly drawing. We are currently manually count all opportunity of
defects and wonder if any software would reduce this time consuming task.
Tuan Bui
Proc. Eng.
Conexant System Inc.
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 16:04:36 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Dunn, Dwayne" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Software for defect caculation
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Unicam has an SPC module that will do that for you.
Dwayne Dunn
Sr. Process Engineer
Nextek, Inc.
201 Next Technology Drive
Madison, AL 35758
(256) 772-1995 ext. 1053
http://www.nextekinc.com/
-----Original Message-----
From: Tuan Bui [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 3:51 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Software for defect caculation
I need to repost this message as suggested.
Greeting
Are there any software available to caculate the Opportunity of Defect. As
a prototype environment, we stencil the bare boards and place passive and
active components by hand using the UNICAM software to work with the BOM
and assembly drawing. We are currently manually count all opportunity of
defects and wonder if any software would reduce this time consuming task.
Tuan Bui
Proc. Eng.
Conexant System Inc.
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 14:02:08 -0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Zawicki <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: PCB Fab Question
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-----Original Message-----
From: Elensky, Richard [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 1:52 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] PCB Fab Question
Good Day to all,
My PCB fab house has been trying to correct an issue regarding the
finished size of a PTH. In our discussions, they mentioned an item I don't
quite understand and thought I would utilize the vast knowledge of forum to
get an Educated opinion... (I understand the risks involved with that
method)
We are using HASL finished boards, 8 layers, .125" thick. Nothing too wild
there.
The fab house stated they could better control the tolerance (+.003
/ -0) on a PTH if the annular ring were larger. The current ring is about
.012" larger than the radius of the hole (.213). They wish to increase the
ring by .010" to.015" as a means of controlling the amount of plating
applied to the inside of the PTH.
Is this possible?? Does the annular ring have that much control on
the amount of plating applied to the barrel of the PTH? Are they blowing
smoke to cover a process related issue?
Thank you for your interest.
Rich
Richard Elensky
Sr. Manufacturing Engineer
[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Tel: 559-292-1111 x246
Fax: 559-292-9355
Dantel
2991 North Argyle Ave.
Fresno, CA, 93727
Visit our web site at:
http:// www.dantel.com <http://www.dantel.com>
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<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
5.5.2653.12">
<TITLE>RE: [TN] PCB Fab Question</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<BR>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Elensky, Richard [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]</A>]</FON=
T>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 1:52 PM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: [log in to unmask]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: [TN] PCB Fab Question</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Good Day to all,</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2> My PCB fab =
house has been trying to correct an issue regarding the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>finished size of a PTH. In our discussions, =
they mentioned an item I don't</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>quite understand and thought I would utilize the =
vast knowledge of forum to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>get an Educated opinion... (I understand the risks =
involved with that</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>method)</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>We are using HASL finished boards, 8 layers, =
.125" thick. Nothing too wild</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>there.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2> The fab =
house stated they could better control the tolerance (+.003</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>/ -0) on a PTH if the annular ring were =
larger. The current ring is about</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>.012" larger than the radius of the hole =
(.213). They wish to increase the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>ring by .010" to.015" as a means of =
controlling the amount of plating</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>applied to the inside of the PTH.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2> Is this =
possible?? Does the annular ring have that much control on</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>the amount of plating applied to the barrel of the =
PTH? Are they blowing</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>smoke to cover a process related issue?</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Thank you for your interest.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Rich</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Richard Elensky</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sr. Manufacturing Engineer</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>[log in to unmask] <<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]</A>></=
FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Tel: 559-292-1111 x246</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Fax: 559-292-9355</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Dantel</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>2991 North Argyle Ave.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Fresno, CA, 93727</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Visit our web site at:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2><A HREF=3D"http://" TARGET=3D"_blank">http://</A> =
www.dantel.com <<A HREF=3D"http://www.dantel.com" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.dantel.com</A>></FONT>
</P>
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Technet</FONT>
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<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Search previous postings at: www.ipc.org > =
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<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Please visit IPC web site (<A =
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TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm</A>) for additional<=
/FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>information, or contact Keach Sasamori at =
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 16:25:42 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: David Hillman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re:
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Hi Russ! A tad more information please - please define the application
these components are going to be used in: socket, soldering, adhesive
joining, etc., and what is the complete plating stackup (i.e. what's under
the gold). Gold does not oxidize (well, at least no one has proven
otherwise yet!) so if you are having lead finish problems then the plating
material beneath the outer gold finish should be suspect.
Dave Hillman
Rockwell Collins
[log in to unmask]
"Vertefeuille, Russell (AZ75)" <[log in to unmask]>
@ipc.org> on 01/07/2002 01:59:17 PM
Please respond to "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
cc:
Subject: [TN]
Hello all,
does anyone know of a supplier who can recondition 68 pin PGA's with gold
finish leads that are very oxidized? I would prefer a company on the west
coast.
Thanks,
Russ Vertefeuille
Honeywell
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 16:14:17 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Vertefeuille, Russell (AZ75)"
<[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Restoring lead finish
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