Kathy, Long for sure but matched by very good input. I agree with all you say and what you've seen. Often makes you wonder how some folks ever get into business let alone becoming successful - especially when it's not that difficult to do it right in light of your story and so many others. I wias talking earlier with an off line gentleman with whom I've often talked. He geve some good insight as well. My reply talks to some of his and your issues with the whole thing: Thanks for the always good input. It is a tough job convincing anyone change is needed even when it means improvement will be assured. I've been doing this and other semi-tough stuff for a lot of years. Often I ask why. Always I answer my questions with it needs doing. Also, I just can't stand poor quality. Cultural change, as you say, is the key. It's the hardes part of the equation as well. Though not a particular Goldrait fan, his final chapter in "The Goal" pretty much summed it all up in terms of the problems of change and how to overcome them. Hell, I love the engineering game a lot. I guess I love being a crusader even more. Thanks again xxxx and keep up the good work, Earl Kathy, I know you love this business. It shows in all you've done in the past. I look forward hearing more about your trip down the DFM path. I'm sure with your help, it will be a well traveled, smooth journey. Earl --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt delivery of Technet send the following message: SET Technet NOMAIL Search previous postings at: www.ipc.org > On-Line Resources & Databases > E-mail Archives Please visit IPC web site (http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm) for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-509-9700 ext.5315 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------