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Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 22:53:05 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "D.Terstegge" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Pick-and-Place Evaluation Checklist?
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See http://www.smtinline.com/html-en/NewProducts/p-p-survey-en.html for =
a survey of pick&place machines.
Daan Terstegge
http://www.smtinfo.net
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Rick Thompson=20
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 4:22 PM
Subject: [TN] Pick-and-Place Evaluation Checklist?
I'm in the process of looking for new equipment and was wondering if
there are any online resources such as checklists or evaluation guides
for features, etc. to use when comparing machines. I realize that a =
lot
of it depends on individual needs but was hoping there may be some
generic guidelines available as a good starting point. Can anyone =
point
me in the right direction or perhaps be willing to share something
you've used?
Thanks in advance for any help you might be able to provide.
Rick Thompson
Ventura Electronics Assembly
2655 Park Center Dr.
Simi Valley, CA 93065
+1 (805) 584-9858 x-304 voice
+1 (805) 584-1529 fax
[log in to unmask]
=
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in
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To temporarily halt delivery of Technet send the following message: =
SET Technet NOMAIL
Search previous postings at: www.ipc.org > On-Line Resources & =
Databases > E-mail Archives
Please visit IPC web site (http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm) for =
additional
information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or =
847-509-9700 ext.5315
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<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>See <A=20
href=3D"http://www.smtinline.com/html-en/NewProducts/p-p-survey-en.html">=
http://www.smtinline.com/html-en/NewProducts/p-p-survey-en.html</A> =
for=20
a survey of pick&place machines.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Daan Terstegge</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.smtinfo.net">http://www.smtinfo.net</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A [log in to unmask]
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">Rick Thompson</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A [log in to unmask]
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, November 27, =
2001 4:22=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [TN] Pick-and-Place =
Evaluation=20
Checklist?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>I'm in the process of looking for new equipment and was =
wondering if<BR>there are any online resources such as checklists or=20
evaluation guides<BR>for features, etc. to use when comparing =
machines. I=20
realize that a lot<BR>of it depends on individual needs but was hoping =
there=20
may be some<BR>generic guidelines available as a good starting point. =
Can=20
anyone point<BR>me in the right direction or perhaps be willing to =
share=20
something<BR>you've used?<BR><BR>Thanks in advance for any help you =
might be=20
able to provide.<BR><BR><BR>Rick Thompson<BR>Ventura Electronics=20
Assembly<BR>2655 Park Center Dr.<BR>Simi Valley, CA 93065<BR><BR>+1 =
(805)=20
584-9858 x-304 voice<BR>+1 (805) 584-1529 fax<BR><A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">rthompson@venturaelectro=
nics.com</A><BR><BR>-----------------------------------------------------=
----------------------------<BR>Technet=20
Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d<BR>To=20
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Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 13:57:41 -0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: peter lee <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Wave soldeing jig thickness
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Other than utilizing exit cooling fans, what other
cooling medium and method would be considered
practical?
Rgds,
Peter
--- Graham Collins <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
> Peter
> I agree - cooling the jigs can be a big problem for
> throughput. One solution I've seen was to have a
> rack at the unload end, the operators would put the
> jigs in it and a fan directed at the rack would
> convection cool them faster than just sitting.
>
> regards
>
> Graham Collins
> Process Engineer,
> Northrop Grumman
> Atlantic Facility of Litton Systems Canada
> (902) 873-2000 ext 6215
>
> >>> [log in to unmask] 11/27/01 03:44AM >>>
> Hello,
>
> Has anyone experienced problems with running boards
> through wave
> soldering in a pallet with deep machined pockets?
>
> My jigs are quite thick (~0.5") in order to mask off
> the high filter
> components on the solder side. As a result the jigs
> get very hot after
> soldering and takes long time to cool down to be
> feed back to the cycle.
> It also affects my profiling, throughput, and seems
> to create more dross
> than usual.
>
> Any comment or advice?
>
> Rgds,
> Peter
>
>
>
_________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
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Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 17:12:15 EST
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Stephen R. Gregory" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: SSOP to SOIC adaptors...
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hey All!!
Getting ready for our first winter blast here in "Okra-homie"...supposed to
get sleet, freezing rain, and snow starting tonight and lasting through
tomorrow night. Funny thing is, it was in the 70's this past weekend????
On to my question; looking for a SSOP-to-SOIC adaptor. Trying to build
3-boards that uses three RS-232 Transceivers per board (this is the first
build of these boards), and the problem is that these parts are 20-pin
SSOP's, but the footprint on the board is standard 20-pin SOIC's. I know
that's NEVER happened to any of you before, huh?
Tried Adapters.Com, and they don't have anything off-the-shelf...they'll make
us some, at $80 each, with a two-week turn...no good.
Aries has one that will work, the SSOP will have some toe overhang, but not
real bad. Trying to find stock somewhere...
Is there anyplace else that I might look in case we can't find stock on the
Aries part?
Thanks a bunch!!!
-Steve Gregory-
--part1_86.134574c7.293569bf_boundary
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>Hey All!!
<BR>
<BR>Getting ready for our first winter blast here in "Okra-homie"...supposed to get sleet, freezing rain, and snow starting tonight and lasting through tomorrow night. Funny thing is, it was in the 70's this past weekend????
<BR>
<BR>On to my question; looking for a SSOP-to-SOIC adaptor. Trying to build 3-boards that uses three RS-232 Transceivers per board (this is the first build of these boards), and the problem is that these parts are 20-pin SSOP's, but the footprint on the board is standard 20-pin SOIC's. I know that's NEVER happened to any of you before, huh?
<BR>
<BR>Tried Adapters.Com, and they don't have anything off-the-shelf...they'll make us some, at $80 each, with a two-week turn...no good.
<BR>
<BR>Aries has one that will work, the SSOP will have some toe overhang, but not real bad. Trying to find stock somewhere...
<BR>
<BR>Is there anyplace else that I might look in case we can't find stock on the Aries part?
<BR>
<BR>Thanks a bunch!!!
<BR>
<BR>-Steve Gregory-</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 11:14:44 +1300
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Michael Bell <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Solder Resist and QFP's
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Hi all,
What are peoples thoughts on solder resist between fine pitch micro pads???
I have recently heard two differing theories regarding this matter, one is
that solder resist between the pads on some very fine pitch QFP's will
reduce the risk of solder shorts. The other theory was that with solder
resist between these pads you could risk getting the resist onto the pads
and reducing the soldering surface??? What is the general consensus on this
matter??? Which approach to others take on this matter?
Cheers
Mike
------_=_NextPart_001_01C17790.EAFF4B40
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charset="iso-8859-1"
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
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<BODY>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=560331122-27112001>Hi
all,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=560331122-27112001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=560331122-27112001>What
are peoples thoughts on solder resist between fine pitch micro pads??? I
have recently heard two differing theories regarding this matter, one is that
solder resist between the pads on some very fine pitch QFP's will reduce the
risk of solder shorts. The other theory was that with solder resist between
these pads you could risk getting the resist onto the pads and reducing the
soldering surface??? What is the general consensus on this matter???
Which approach to others take on this matter?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=560331122-27112001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=560331122-27112001>Cheers</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=560331122-27112001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=560331122-27112001>Mike</SPAN></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 15:17:09 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Jorge Rodriguez <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Need Help with 85-15 Altera QFPs
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> Fellow Technetters:
>
> I am sending this looking for any help, I guess I've done everything
> as far as the process and I haven't been able to resolve the issue. We've
> been having soldering problems for a while with QFPs with 85 Sn/15 Pb
> finish on the leads. The solder doesn't flow properly and an acceptable
> solder joint is not formed, the leads can be sometimes lifted with no
> effort. The solder paste was checked after the screen printer operation
> and it looked alright, the oven profile was also verified and it's always
> within the solder paste manufacturer's recommendations. This problem seems
> to be affecting all the different products with this type of component.
> These part numbers are manufactured by Altera. Has anybody experienced
> similar problems with QFPs from this manufacturer?, Does anybody have
> recommendations as far as the reflow oven profile?. I read somewhere that
> this particular alloy has the liquidus temperature at 205 degrees, is this
> accurate?
>
Any help would be really appreciated
> Jorge Rodriguez
> Process Engineer
> Varian Electronics Manufacturing
> E-mail: [log in to unmask]
>
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Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 15:52:57 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Ivan Barrios <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Wave soldeing jig thickness
MIME-Version: 1.0
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One thing you can try, is that since you have to return the jigs anyway to
the beginning of the wave solder process, you might want to use a conveyor
with fans on top so that the fans will cool off the pallets as they go
through the conveyor.
Ivan
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 23:44:19 -0800
From: Peter Lee <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Wave soldeing jig thickness
Hello,
Has anyone experienced problems with running boards through wave
soldering in a pallet with deep machined pockets?
My jigs are quite thick (~0.5") in order to mask off the high filter
components on the solder side. As a result the jigs get very hot after
soldering and takes long time to cool down to be feed back to the cycle.
It also affects my profiling, throughput, and seems to create more dross
than usual.
Any comment or advice?
Rgds,
Peter
--=_alternative 007DEF6487256B11_=
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">One thing you can try, is that since you have to return the jigs anyway to the beginning of the wave solder process, you might want to use a conveyor with fans on top so that the fans will cool off the pallets as they go through the conveyor. </font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Ivan</font>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 23:44:19 -0800<br>
From: Peter Lee <[log in to unmask]><br>
Subject: Wave soldeing jig thickness<br>
<br>
Hello,<br>
<br>
Has anyone experienced problems with running boards through wave<br>
soldering in a pallet with deep machined pockets?<br>
<br>
My jigs are quite thick (~0.5") in order to mask off the high filter<br>
components on the solder side. As a result the jigs get very hot after<br>
soldering and takes long time to cool down to be feed back to the cycle.<br>
It also affects my profiling, throughput, and seems to create more dross<br>
than usual.<br>
<br>
Any comment or advice?<br>
<br>
Rgds,<br>
Peter</font>
--=_alternative 007DEF6487256B11_=--
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Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 17:09:54 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Keach Sasamori <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: E-mail Address Changed
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Carl,
You are indeed subscribed as [log in to unmask] for Technet.
No action is necessary.
Keach=20
>>> [log in to unmask] 11/27/01 15:17 PM >>>
My new e-mail address will be [log in to unmask] . Please ensure you
have changed my address in your files or there is a fellow at SCI who
will receive my e-mails.
This will take effect Friday November 30th.
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Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 08:31:25 +0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "<Peter George Duncan>" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Isolation between connector pins
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Hi, Daan,
Are all the connector pins being used? Frequently, several to many pins are
not used, in which case why not design so that pins adjacent to the 220V AC
connection are not connected to anything else. This will effectively
increase the spacing between the high voltage and other signals.
Peter Duncan
"d. terstegge"
<[log in to unmask] To: [log in to unmask]
GROUP.COM> cc: (bcc: DUNCAN Peter/Asst Prin Engr/ST
Sent by: TechNet Aero/ST Group)
<[log in to unmask]> Subject: [TN] Isolation between connector pins
11/26/01 11:45 PM
Please respond to
"TechNet E-Mail Forum."
Hi Technetters,
On one of our new designs must be able to withstand a 220 Volt AC between
two pins of a SMD-connector with a spacing between the pins of about 0.5
mm.
This seems a bit on the critical side, and the designer asked me if it is
possible to have some extra isolation between these pins. I was thinking
that a drop of solderresist that we sometimes use for repairs would do the
job, but I'm not sure that it'll work. Maybe someone can give me a better
advice ?
Daan Terstegge
SMT Centre
Thales Communications
Unclassified mail
Personal Website: http://www.smtinfo.net
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Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 22:34:15 -0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: David Fish <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SSOP to SOIC adaptors...
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Try:
Aries 908.996.6841
Antona 310.473.8995
Oztech 510.782.2654fax2656
Emulation Technology 408.982.0660 800.232.7837 fax 0664 =
www.emulation.com
Interconnect Systems 708 Via Alondra Camarillo CA 93012 805.482.2870 fax =
8470 www.isipkg.com
Dave Fish
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Stephen R. Gregory=20
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 2:12 PM
Subject: [TN] SSOP to SOIC adaptors...
Hey All!!=20
Getting ready for our first winter blast here in =
"Okra-homie"...supposed to get sleet, freezing rain, and snow starting =
tonight and lasting through tomorrow night. Funny thing is, it was in =
the 70's this past weekend????=20
On to my question; looking for a SSOP-to-SOIC adaptor. Trying to build =
3-boards that uses three RS-232 Transceivers per board (this is the =
first build of these boards), and the problem is that these parts are =
20-pin SSOP's, but the footprint on the board is standard 20-pin SOIC's. =
I know that's NEVER happened to any of you before, huh?=20
Tried Adapters.Com, and they don't have anything =
off-the-shelf...they'll make us some, at $80 each, with a two-week =
turn...no good.=20
Aries has one that will work, the SSOP will have some toe overhang, =
but not real bad. Trying to find stock somewhere...=20
Is there anyplace else that I might look in case we can't find stock =
on the Aries part?=20
Thanks a bunch!!!=20
-Steve Gregory-=20
------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C17793.A4FE1F60
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charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2919.6307" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Try:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Aries 908.996.6841<BR>Antona =
310.473.8995<BR>Oztech=20
510.782.2654fax2656<BR>Emulation Technology 408.982.0660 800.232.7837 =
fax 0664=20
<A =
href=3D"http://www.emulation.com">www.emulation.com</A><BR>Interconnect =
Systems=20
708 Via Alondra Camarillo CA 93012 805.482.2870 fax 8470 <A=20
href=3D"http://www.isipkg.com">www.isipkg.com</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Dave Fish</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" [log in to unmask]>Stephen =
R.=20
Gregory</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"=20
[log in to unmask]>[log in to unmask]</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, November 27, =
2001 2:12=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [TN] SSOP to SOIC=20
adaptors...</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2>Hey All!!=20
<BR><BR>Getting ready for our first winter blast here in=20
"Okra-homie"...supposed to get sleet, freezing rain, and snow starting =
tonight=20
and lasting through tomorrow night. Funny thing is, it was in the 70's =
this=20
past weekend???? <BR><BR>On to my question; looking for a SSOP-to-SOIC =
adaptor. Trying to build 3-boards that uses three RS-232 Transceivers =
per=20
board (this is the first build of these boards), and the problem is =
that these=20
parts are 20-pin SSOP's, but the footprint on the board is standard =
20-pin=20
SOIC's. I know that's NEVER happened to any of you before, huh? =
<BR><BR>Tried=20
Adapters.Com, and they don't have anything off-the-shelf...they'll =
make us=20
some, at $80 each, with a two-week turn...no good. <BR><BR>Aries has =
one that=20
will work, the SSOP will have some toe overhang, but not real bad. =
Trying to=20
find stock somewhere... <BR><BR>Is there anyplace else that I might =
look in=20
case we can't find stock on the Aries part? <BR><BR>Thanks a bunch!!!=20
<BR><BR>-Steve Gregory-</FONT> </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C17793.A4FE1F60--
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Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 12:25:36 +0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "<Peter George Duncan>" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: IPC SM-782 on-line calculator
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Yu-Hung Shiau
<yshiau@ATPUS To: [log in to unmask]
A.COM> cc: (bcc: DUNCAN Peter/Asst Prin Engr/ST
Sent by: Aero/ST Group)
TechNet Subject: [TN] IPC SM-782 on-line calculator
<[log in to unmask]
ORG>
11/27/01
06:53 AM
Please
respond to
"TechNet
E-Mail
Forum."
Land Pattern calculation is still an artform, not a science and depends on
a number of parameters such as board material, component package (often
manufacturer-specific), assembly process to be used (Wave or CR, etc), P&P
machines being used to populate the boards and your own design rules.
I raised this issue on TechNet a few weeks ago, especially since I was
getting different answers for land pattern sizes depending on which method
I used ( component data sheets, SM-782 or calculators). IPC stated that
they are working to address these issues. However, to answer your specific
questions, see comments below, PLUS the 4 main factors to consider are the
board manufacturing tolerence, the component placement tolerence and the
tolerence of the component itself, as well as the component's actual
lead:board contact area and component dimensions.
If you have any experience of determining land patterns that work, use that
background to judge the "reasonableness" of the calculated results. For
example, the larger allowance between heel and toe has to go to the end
where max stress is going to be experienced. Usually this is the end where
the lead goes on to join the component body, if you follow.
Hi,
Does anyone know how to use the on-line SM-782 calculator? There are few
fields I don't know what numbers should I plug in.
1-1. Man. Allowance- P Place Accuracy **FIND OUT FROM YOUR ASSEMBLY PEOPLE
WHAT THE PLACEMENT ACCURACY IS OF THE PICK AND PLACE MACHINES THEY USE AND
PLUG THAT FIGURE IN.**
1-2. Man. Allowance- J/T Toe Min. ** FROM YOU FAB HOUSE, OBTAIN THE PAD
POSITIONAL TOLERENCE THEY ARE WORKING TO WHEN FABRICATING THE BOARDS AND
PLUG THAT FIGURE IN.**
2-1. Solder Joint Design Goal- J/T Toe Min **IN THE ABSENCE OF COMPONENT
DATA SHEET INFORMATION OR SPECIFIC DATA FOR THE PACKAGE FROM SM-782, MIN.
TOE ALLOWANCE CAN BE TAKEN FROM TABLE 3.4 (NEAR THE FRONT) OF SM-782. I
DON'T BELIEVE IT'S ACCURATE FOR ALL PURPOSES, BUT IT'S THE BEST AVAILABLE
IN THE ABSENCE OF ANY OTHER INFO.**
2-1. Solder Joint Design Goal- J/H Heel Min ** SAME AS FOR TOE-TAKE FROM
THE SPEC TABLE**
2-1. Solder Joint Design Goal- J/S Side Min ** SIDE ALLOWANCE DEPENDS ON
THE COMPONENT PITCH AND LAND SPACING REQUIREMENTS OF THE DESIGN. FIND A
COMPROMISE BETWEEN YOUR DESIGN RULES AND THE REQUIREMENTS OF THE COMPONENT.
OFTEN THE SIDE ALLOWANCE IS ZERO BECAUSE THERE ISN'T ROOM TO HAVE THE PAD
ANY WIDER THAN THE COMPONENT LEAD, BUT ARE ALSO NOT MUCH LARGER IN MANY
CASES THAN ABOUT 0.02MM. I THINK A SIDE ALLOWANCE IS ALSO GIVEN IN THE SPEC
TABLE **
**IN SUMMARY, YOU HAVE YOU USE YOUR OWN BEST KNOWLEDGE/JUDGEMENT TO OBTAIN
THE FINAL PATTERN. DON'T MAKE THEM TOO LONG AT EITHER END, OR TOO SHORT
EITHER, BUT DETERMINING WHAT IS TOO LONG AND WHAT IS TOO SHORT COMES DOWN
TO EXPERIENCE, TRIAL AND ERROR.**
I have lost my hard copy of my IPC SM-782 standard for a while. **I DON'T
HAVE A COPY OF THE SPEC TO HAND EITHER, OR I WOULD BE ABLE TO REPRODUCE THE
TABLE FOR YOU - IT'S NOT VERY LARGE.**
By the way, which category I should go for the resistor array (resistor
network) while I use the SM-782 calculator? **SORRY, CAN'T HELP YOU HERE**
Thank you all for any feedback.
YH Shiau
Best of luck
Peter Duncan
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=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 23:49:42 -0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Peter Lee <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Wave soldeing jig thickness
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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How about industrial air/water chiller small enough to stack several
jigs in for a short period of time? Has anyone come across something
like that?
Rgds,
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ivan Barrios
Sent: November 27, 2001 2:53 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Wave soldeing jig thickness
One thing you can try, is that since you have to return the jigs anyway
to the beginning of the wave solder process, you might want to use a
conveyor with fans on top so that the fans will cool off the pallets as
they go through the conveyor.
Ivan
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 23:44:19 -0800
From: Peter Lee <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Wave soldeing jig thickness
Hello,
Has anyone experienced problems with running boards through wave
soldering in a pallet with deep machined pockets?
My jigs are quite thick (~0.5") in order to mask off the high filter
components on the solder side. As a result the jigs get very hot after
soldering and takes long time to cool down to be feed back to the cycle.
It also affects my profiling, throughput, and seems to create more dross
than usual.
Any comment or advice?
Rgds,
Peter
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:PMingLiU;color:navy;
mso-fareast-language:ZH-TW'>How about industrial air/water chiller small =
enough
to stack several jigs in for a short period of time? Has anyone come =
across something
like that?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:PMingLiU;color:navy;
mso-fareast-language:ZH-TW'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
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10.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:PMingLiU;color:navy;
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DSpellE><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy =
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style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:PMing=
LiU;
color:navy;mso-fareast-language:ZH-TW'>Rgds</span></font></span><font =
size=3D2
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
mso-fareast-font-family:PMingLiU;color:navy;mso-fareast-language:ZH-TW'>,=
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:PMingLiU;color:navy;
mso-fareast-language:ZH-TW'>Peter<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:PMingLiU;color:navy;
mso-fareast-language:ZH-TW'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DTahoma><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original =
Message-----<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> TechNet
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf =
Of </span></b>Ivan
Barrios<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> =
</span></font><st1:date
Month=3D"11" Day=3D"27" Year=3D"2001"><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>November 27, =
2001</span></font></st1:date><font
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> </span></font><st1:time
Hour=3D"14" Minute=3D"53"><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'>2:53 PM</span></font></st1:time><font size=3D2 =
face=3DTahoma><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [TN] Wave =
soldeing jig
thickness</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><br>
</span></font><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New"'>One thing you can try, is that since you have =
to
return the jigs anyway to the beginning of the wave solder process, you =
might
want to use a conveyor with fans on top so that the fans will cool off =
the
pallets as they go through the conveyor. </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Ivan</span></font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Date:
Mon, 26 Nov 2001 23:44:19 -0800<br>
From: Peter Lee <[log in to unmask]><br>
Subject: Wave soldeing jig thickness<br>
<br>
Hello,<br>
<br>
Has anyone experienced problems with running boards through wave<br>
soldering in a pallet with deep machined pockets?<br>
<br>
My jigs are quite thick (~0.5") in order to mask off the high =
filter<br>
components on the solder side. As a result the jigs get very hot =
after<br>
soldering and takes long time to cool down to be feed back to the =
cycle.<br>
It also affects my profiling, throughput, and seems to create more =
dross<br>
than usual.<br>
<br>
Any comment or advice?<br>
<br>
Rgds,<br>
Peter</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>
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Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 12:08:29 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "d. terstegge" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: BGA long term storage?
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Hmmm, seems I'm the only one who adviced not to worry about long term =
storage of BGA's. I must admit that I never stored a BGA for 10 years to =
see how it solders, but I really don't expect the solderability to =
decrease to such an extend that the balls will not solder anymore.
According to Klein Wassink the oxidation layer on solder will grow =
approximately logarithmically with time, resulting in about 6nm after 20 =
years which is just twice as thick as after one year !
So my question is: are nitrogen cabinets, ROSA-technology or redesigns =
REALLY necesarry ?
Maybe one of the metallurgists on this forum can add a few words ?
Daan Terstegge
SMT Centre
Thales Communications
Unclassified mail
Personal Website: http://www.smtinfo.net
>>> Graham Collins <[log in to unmask]> 11/27 1:02 pm >>>
Hi Doug!
Indeed - not a new problem - and one we have faced on other programs. =
It's just the BGAs that are new to us for this problem.
Nitrogen storage is available here and I expect that's what we will use =
(unless some other TechNet guru has a better idea!).
I've heard of ROSA, and in fact Dave was kind enough to send me a 35mm =
thick document describing some experiments and results with it. Very =
interesting machine. Do you know if anything ever come of the work to =
produce a commercial (non-lab) version of this? Hmm... wonder what =
happened to Bev's?
Anyway - thanks to everyone for the responses. Nitrogen storage was/is =
the plan, but it is always good to have a sanity check with some experts.
regards
Graham Collins
Process Engineer,=20
Northrop Grumman
Atlantic Facility of Litton Systems Canada
(902) 873-2000 ext 6215
>>> [log in to unmask] 11/26/01 04:11PM >>>
The issue of long term storage of parts or boards is not a new one. The
military, faced with REALLY long lifetimes (e.g. 50 years for a MX =
missile)
and decreaseing market clout, has had to deal with lifetime buys for a =
long
time. In my mind, there are two possibilities: (1) preserve the original
solderability for as long as possible, or (2) plan on restoring the
solderability at some point in the future when the part is needed.
In the first case, you will have to setup some fairly elaborate storage
conditions where oxygen and moisture are excluded. Dry nitrogen is most
common, but alternatives could include dessicated conditions or coverage
with a heavy noble gas like argon. You will have to setup incoming and
outgoing logs that tightly control the inventory, and you have to have
floor space for the storage for the life span of the part.
In the second case, you restore the solderable surface. Some people do
this using aggressive fluxes and re-tinning, with limited success. An
alternative to this is to use an electrochemical reduction process called
ROSA to change the surface oxides to the base metal, restoring
solderability. ROSA can be done on many parts at the same time, it is
electroless, and is not too capital intensive. Dave Hillman of Rockwell =
is
the master of ROSA and has published a number of papers on the topic. He
would probably answer more fully but he is currently putting the finishing
touches on his Master's thesis and so won't stick his head out of his
cubicle for another few days. And when he does, if he sees his shadow,
there will be 5 more months of winter (in Iowa, that's a safe bet). Where
was I?
The advantage of the ROSA approach is that it does not matter all that =
much
what the solderability condition was when the part was received, and the
storage conditions do not have to be draconian.
As the commercial goes, you can pay me now or pay me later.....
Doug Pauls
Rockwell Collins
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Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 08:27:28 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Furrow, Robert Gordon (Bob)" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Solder Resist and QFP's
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Mike,
I think that a good board shop should be able to avoid contaminating the pad
surface with resist. The larger concern I would have is if in any areas the
solder resist height is above the surface of the pad, your stencil will not
gasket properly and you can actually increase the number of shorts.
Thanks,
Robert Furrow
Printed Wiring Board Engineer
Strategic Supply Global Account Manager
Supply Chain Networks
Lucent Technologies
978-960-3224 [log in to unmask]
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Bell [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 5:15 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Solder Resist and QFP's
Hi all,
What are peoples thoughts on solder resist between fine pitch micro pads???
I have recently heard two differing theories regarding this matter, one is
that solder resist between the pads on some very fine pitch QFP's will
reduce the risk of solder shorts. The other theory was that with solder
resist between these pads you could risk getting the resist onto the pads
and reducing the soldering surface??? What is the general consensus on this
matter??? Which approach to others take on this matter?
Cheers
Mike
------_=_NextPart_001_01C17810.6CDDF560
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
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<BODY>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=435102313-28112001>Mike,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=435102313-28112001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=435102313-28112001>I
think that a good board shop should be able to avoid contaminating the pad
surface with resist. The larger concern I would have is if in any areas the
solder resist height is above the surface of the pad, your stencil will not
gasket properly and you can actually increase the number of
shorts.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman">Thanks,</FONT> <BR><I><FONT color=#000080
face="Comic Sans MS">Robert Furrow</FONT></I> <BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2>Printed Wiring Board Engineer</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2>Strategic Supply Global Account Manager</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2>Supply Chain Networks</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>Lucent
Technologies</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2>978-960-3224 <U> </U></FONT><U><FONT color=#0000ff
face=Arial size=2>[log in to unmask]</FONT></U> </P>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Michael Bell
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, November 27, 2001
5:15 PM<BR><B>To:</B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> [TN] Solder Resist
and QFP's<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=560331122-27112001>Hi
all,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=560331122-27112001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=560331122-27112001>What
are peoples thoughts on solder resist between fine pitch micro pads??? I
have recently heard two differing theories regarding this matter, one is that
solder resist between the pads on some very fine pitch QFP's will reduce the
risk of solder shorts. The other theory was that with solder resist between
these pads you could risk getting the resist onto the pads and reducing the
soldering surface??? What is the general consensus on this
matter??? Which approach to others take on this
matter?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=560331122-27112001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=560331122-27112001>Cheers</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=560331122-27112001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=560331122-27112001>Mike</SPAN></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 08:22:20 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Kathy Kuhlow <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Solder Resist and QFP's
Mime-Version: 1.0
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IMHO it doesn't really matter. You need to have different controls built =
in depending which method you are using. =20
Kathy=20
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<DIV>IMHO it doesn't really matter. You need to have different controls
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Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 07:44:14 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Ou Sokkhon-R5AALJ <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Wave soldeing jig thickness
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May be you need to look for different material for your jig so that the jig is thinner and carry less heat. Also you probably need to build more jig to allow cool off time before use it again.
Regards
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 23:44:19 -0800
From: Peter Lee <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Wave soldeing jig thickness
Hello,
Has anyone experienced problems with running boards through wave
soldering in a pallet with deep machined pockets?
My jigs are quite thick (~0.5") in order to mask off the high filter
components on the solder side. As a result the jigs get very hot after
soldering and takes long time to cool down to be feed back to the cycle.
It also affects my profiling, throughput, and seems to create more dross
than usual.
Any comment or advice?
Rgds,
Peter
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D194354114-28112001>May be=20
you need to look for different material for your jig so that the jig is =
thinner=20
and carry less heat. Also you probably need to build more jig to allow =
cool off=20
time before use it again.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D194354114-28112001>Regards</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
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size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'">Date: =
Mon, 26=20
Nov 2001 23:44:19 -0800<BR>From: Peter Lee=20
<[log in to unmask]><BR>Subject: Wave soldeing jig=20
thickness<BR><BR>Hello,<BR><BR>Has anyone experienced problems with =
running=20
boards through wave<BR>soldering in a pallet with deep machined=20
pockets?<BR><BR>My jigs are quite thick (~0.5") in order to mask off =
the high=20
filter<BR>components on the solder side. As a result the jigs get =
very hot=20
after<BR>soldering and takes long time to cool down to be feed back =
to the=20
cycle.<BR>It also affects my profiling, throughput, and seems to =
create more=20
dross<BR>than usual.<BR><BR>Any comment or=20
=
advice?<BR><BR>Rgds,<BR>Peter</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE=
></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 10:05:16 -0500
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Francois Monette <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: BGA long term storage?
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Graham,
You should be aware of the following information relative to dry storage for
moisture-sensitive devices:
Contrary to popular belief, it is not safe to assume that all MSDs can be
stored in a dry cabinet for an extended period of time. Over time the
components will saturate to the ambient conditions inside the dry box (10%
RH is common) and this actually exceeds the critical level for many devices.
The level of risk and the time required to exceed the critical level are
directly related to the MS level and body thickness of the components and to
the RH level in the dry box.
To account for this situation, the IPC/JEDEC standard J-STD-033 is currently
being revised to include a limit of 90 days maximum of storage in a dry
cabinet. (I can send you a copy of the proposed revision if you want).
A better option for long term dry storage is to keep MSDs inside a dry bag
with desiccant and optionally to place this dry bag in a dry environment. Of
course the bags are not perfectly moisture-proof but they will offer a drier
environment than a standard dry box for a longer period of time. They are
designed to protect the components for a minimum of 12 months in a
non-condensing environment of <40C/90%RH. The drier the environment around
the bags the longer it will take before too much moisture gets inside. When
you open the bag, the Humidity Indicator Card (HIC) inside will indicate if
parts need to be baked before processing.
I am in the process of putting the finishing touch to a technical paper on
the subject of MSD dry storage that will be presented at the upcoming APEX
technical conference. I would be glad to send you a copy of this paper if
you are interested.
Francois Monette
Cogiscan Inc.
50 De Gaspe, Suite A5
Bromont, Quebec, Canada, J2L 2N8
Tel : (450)534-2644
Fax: (450)534-0092
www.cogiscan.com
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 07:02:57 -0500
From: Graham Collins <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: BGA long term storage?
Hi Doug!
Indeed - not a new problem - and one we have faced on other programs. =
It's just the BGAs that are new to us for this problem.
Nitrogen storage is available here and I expect that's what we will use =
(unless some other TechNet guru has a better idea!).
I've heard of ROSA, and in fact Dave was kind enough to send me a 35mm =
thick document describing some experiments and results with it. Very =
interesting machine. Do you know if anything ever come of the work to =
produce a commercial (non-lab) version of this? Hmm... wonder what =
happened to Bev's?
Anyway - thanks to everyone for the responses. Nitrogen storage was/is =
the plan, but it is always good to have a sanity check with some experts.
regards
Graham Collins
Process Engineer,=20
Northrop Grumman
Atlantic Facility of Litton Systems Canada
(902) 873-2000 ext 6215
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Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 09:32:36 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Heinz Mader <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Adhesion problems of galvanic gold on electroless nickel gold
Hallo outthere in the big pcb world
A qestion from switzerland
We produce a board(material G 10) After full plating electroless nickel
gold the adhesion is good.Then we laminate fotoresist film for goldmask and
develope with soda.
We let plate the bond gold externel. This Gold has not enough adhesion
with tape test We see that not later not after Galvanic plating
Has anyone some experince solving that problem
With kind regards
Heinz Mader
Ascom AG
3000 Berne
Switzerland
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Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 10:57:17 EST
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Jon Moore <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Wave soldeing jig thickness
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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In a message dated 11/27/2001 2:35:13 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
<< As a result the jigs get very hot after
soldering and takes long time to cool down to be feed back to the cycle.
It also affects my profiling, throughput, and seems to create more dross
than usual. >>
I have seen all of the effects you describe. I believe the dross increase is
due to a small amount of moisture absorption by the pallet material, but I
have never taken the steps to prove it out. The pallet will definitely make
a large difference in your profile. As for cooling, I think the idea already
suggested of a rack with fans will work best. You can also get conveyors or
buffers with built in fans, and even programmable to hold each pallet for a
set amount of time. Then you can profile the cool down time with your KIC or
whatever profiler, and get a good estimate for exactly how long to cool each
one before reusing. I don't recommend any kind of quenching or other forced
cooling with liquid.
Jon Moore
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Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 11:19:28 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: David Schaefer <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Component Area Usage - Reality Check
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_E5B8D1BA.F091DD76"
This is a MIME message. If you are reading this text, you may want to
consider changing to a mail reader or gateway that understands how to
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--=_E5B8D1BA.F091DD76
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
We are working on the early stages of a very densely populated design, and =
are looking at
area estimations. Is there any specification / rule of thumb which =
defines the maximum
component placement area usage (percentage or ratio)?
Thanks,
Dave Schaefer Voice: (204)478-8059
Senior PCB Designer FAX: (204)942-3001
Symbol Technologies Email: [log in to unmask]
1000 Waverley Street =20
Winnipeg, MB R3T 0P3 =20
--=_E5B8D1BA.F091DD76
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Description: HTML
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1"=
>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY style=3D"MARGIN-TOP: 2px; FONT: 8pt MS Sans Serif; MARGIN-LEFT: =
2px">
<DIV><FONT size=3D1>We are working on the early stages of a very =
densely=20
populated design, and are looking at</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1>area estimations. </FONT><FONT size=3D1>Is there =
any=20
specification / rule of thumb which defines the maximum</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1>component placement area usage (percentage or=20
ratio)?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1>Thanks,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1>Dave=20
Schaefer &=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; =20
Voice: (204)478-8059<BR>Senior PCB=20
Designer &=
nbsp; =20
FAX: (204)942-3001<BR>Symbol=20
Technologies &nb=
sp; =20
Email: <A href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A> =
<BR>1000=20
Waverley=20
Street &nb=
sp; =20
<BR>Winnipeg, MB R3T 0P3 </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1></FONT> </DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 08:58:15 -0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Brooks,Bill" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Component Area Usage - Reality Check
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Hi David ,
In my opinion, this is not easily defined as a rule of thumb. Component
placement is limited by the machine that does the placement. The land area
and clearances must take into account the processes that need to be applied
to the components. IPC-SM-782 has recommendations for placement 'corrals' or
clearances. Many designers build this clearance into their cad footprints to
make it easier to prevent manufacturing problems on the pick and place
machines, and soldering machines. The minimums are rarely desirable, but
what you can get away with based on the volumes of boards you will make and
the tolerances you have allowed for your machines will affect the yields you
get on the manufacturing floor. Your manufacturing engineers will know more
about the limitations of the machines they have access to and what they can
get away with for clearances.... Sorry there is no silver bullet for this
problem. I would suggest you use the IPC spec as the worst case estimate for
component area and address the clearance issues when you get into the
design. Overlapping spaces can be accommodated by some machines in some axis
orientations under certain conditions... for example.
Just as a side note.... Back when I was hand taping artworks, I used to
estimate board area by figuring how many discrete components would fit into
a IC foot print and then applying that to a ratio of IC units per square
inch,,, I could be sure it was a tougher board if the IC units per square
in was in excess of 1/2 a sq. in. per IC unit ...(those were based on a 16
pin DIP package) or some other unreasonable amount.... Based on previous
design densities... The newer components can be deceiving in their apparent
real estate requirements, BGA's need more room to allow access to the parts
for removal or rework, for example... tolerances for fine pitch parts make
them more difficult to place, 0402 discrete are the size of a grain of
pepper... the machines that handle, test and rework these parts will define
your clearances for you... in the end. Diligent research will pay for itself
in the long run... with better yields and less rework on the manufacturing
floor. I hope this helps a little... :-)
Bill Brooks
PCB Design Engineer , C.I.D.
DATRON WORLD COMMUNICATIONS, INC
3030 Enterprise Court
Vista, CA 92083
Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510
mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
IPC Designers Council, San Diego Chapter
http://www.ipc.org/SanDiego/ <http://www.ipc.org/SanDiego/>
http://home.fda.net/bbrooks/pca/pca.htm
<http://home.fda.net/bbrooks/pca/pca.htm>
-----Original Message-----
From: David Schaefer [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 8:19 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Component Area Usage - Reality Check
We are working on the early stages of a very densely populated design, and
are looking at
area estimations. Is there any specification / rule of thumb which defines
the maximum
component placement area usage (percentage or ratio)?
Thanks,
Dave Schaefer Voice: (204)478-8059
Senior PCB Designer FAX: (204)942-3001
Symbol Technologies Email: [log in to unmask]
<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
1000 Waverley Street
Winnipeg, MB R3T 0P3
------_=_NextPart_001_01C1782D.DEEBA090
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY style="MARGIN-TOP: 2px; FONT: 8pt MS Sans Serif; MARGIN-LEFT: 2px">
<DIV><SPAN class=604512916-28112001><FONT size=1>Hi </FONT><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>David , </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=604512916-28112001><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=604512916-28112001><FONT size=1>In my opinion, this is not
easily defined as a rule of thumb. Component placement is limited by the machine
that does the placement. The land area and clearances must take into account the
processes that need to be applied to the components. IPC-SM-782 has
recommendations for placement 'corrals' or clearances. Many designers build this
clearance into their cad footprints to make it easier to prevent manufacturing
problems on the pick and place machines, and soldering machines. The
minimums are rarely desirable, but what you can get away with based on the
volumes of boards you will make and the tolerances you have allowed for your
machines will affect the yields you get on the manufacturing floor. Your
manufacturing engineers will know more about the limitations of the machines
they have access to and what they can get away with for clearances.... Sorry
there is no silver bullet for this problem. I would suggest you use the IPC spec
as the worst case estimate for component area and address the clearance issues
when you get into the design. Overlapping spaces can be accommodated by some
machines in some axis orientations under certain conditions... for
example.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=604512916-28112001><FONT size=1>Just as a side note.... Back
when I was hand taping artworks, I used to estimate board area by figuring how
many discrete components would fit into a IC foot print and then applying
that to a ratio of IC units per square inch,,, I could be sure it was a
tougher board if the IC units per square in was in excess of 1/2 a sq. in. per
IC unit ...(those were based on a 16 pin DIP package) or some
other unreasonable amount.... Based on previous design densities... The
newer components can be deceiving in their apparent real estate requirements,
BGA's need more room to allow access to the parts for removal or rework, for
example... tolerances for fine pitch parts make them more difficult to place,
0402 discrete are the size of a grain of pepper... the machines that handle,
test and rework these parts will define your clearances for you... in the end.
</FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=604512916-28112001><FONT size=1>Diligent research will
pay for itself in the long run... with better yields and less rework on the
manufacturing floor. I hope this helps a little... </FONT></SPAN><SPAN
class=604512916-28112001><FONT size=1>:-)</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=604512916-28112001><B><FONT face=Arial
size=5></FONT></B></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=604512916-28112001><B><FONT face=Arial size=5>Bill
Brooks</FONT><FONT face=Arial color=#000000
size=5><I><BR></I></FONT><I></I></B><I></I><FONT face=Arial size=2>PCB Design
Engineer , C.I.D.<BR><U></U></FONT><U><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>DATRON WORLD COMMUNICATIONS, INC</FONT></U><BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2>3030 Enterprise Court<BR>Vista, CA 92083<BR>Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772
Fax: (760)597-1510<BR><A
href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]</A><BR>IPC Designers
Council, San Diego Chapter<BR><A href="http://www.ipc.org/SanDiego/"
target=_blank>http://www.ipc.org/SanDiego/</A><BR><A
href="http://home.fda.net/bbrooks/pca/pca.htm"
target=_blank>http://home.fda.net/bbrooks/pca/pca.htm</A></FONT> </DIV></SPAN>
<DIV><SPAN class=604512916-28112001><FONT size=1></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> David Schaefer
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, November 28, 2001 8:19
AM<BR><B>To:</B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> [TN] Component Area Usage
- Reality Check<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=1>We are working on the early stages of a very densely
populated design, and are looking at</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=1>area estimations. </FONT><FONT size=1>Is there any
specification / rule of thumb which defines the maximum</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=1>component placement area usage (percentage or
ratio)?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=1></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=1>Thanks,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=1>Dave
Schaefer
Voice: (204)478-8059<BR>Senior PCB
Designer
FAX: (204)942-3001<BR>Symbol
Technologies
Email: <A href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A> <BR>1000
Waverley
Street
<BR>Winnipeg, MB R3T 0P3 </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=1></FONT> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
------_=_NextPart_001_01C1782D.DEEBA090--
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Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 12:04:16 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Vandendolder, Ron" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Adhesion problems of galvanic gold on electroless nickel gold
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Heinz
A couple of ideas;
There may be a slight resist residue from the photoresist developing step
inhibiting adhesion.
A longer, warmer rinse may alleviate this problem followed by a quick
neutralizing dip in
10% HCL. Also a preclean/acid pickle and initial plating in a gold strike
tank with a below 7 ph will also help adhesion.
A quick experiment involving a stand alone coupon, that witnesses identical
processing as the board in one case and in the other case forgoes the
secondary photo-lamination with all other
variables the same (including time between initial electroless nickel/gold
and final gold plate, bakes, rinses,G10 material etc.) should help pin point
the problem....
Regards,
Ron VandenDolder
Product Development Manager
Telaxis Communications
SouthDeerfield, Ma 01375
413-665-8551
[log in to unmask]
-----Original Message-----
From: Heinz Mader [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 10:33 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Adhesion problems of galvanic gold on electroless nickel
gold
Hallo outthere in the big pcb world
A qestion from switzerland
We produce a board(material G 10) After full plating electroless nickel
gold the adhesion is good.Then we laminate fotoresist film for goldmask and
develope with soda.
We let plate the bond gold externel. This Gold has not enough adhesion
with tape test We see that not later not after Galvanic plating
Has anyone some experince solving that problem
With kind regards
Heinz Mader
Ascom AG
3000 Berne
Switzerland
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Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 10:14:33 -0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Smith, Russell (US LA)" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cu CL etcher
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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----Thanks to everyone for the info , I was a weak on Cupric, (I spent
my life using mostly Ammonium and Ferric, amongst other more exotic
etches)=20
Any way one more simple or not so simple question :
Would you run a Cupric etcher @ 140g/l Cu and 5N HCl .?=20
Is It a correct assumption that somewhat lower N, and higher
copper would , provide faster etch rate. It just seems to me that
operating at an extreme N will basically just cost money in the form of
excess HCL usage , not to mention the wear and tear on the equipment,
and operators.,
Again thanks for the information!
Russell Smith
=09
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Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 13:33:16 -0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: David Fish <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Need Help with 85-15 Altera QFPs
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Have not seen the problem you describe.
You're probably forming a solder alloy with your paste and the 85 Sn/15 Pb
on your Altera leads that has a different [most likely higher] liquidus
temperature than you expect or that is defined by your paste supplier's
recommended profile.
Run a profile on the Altera leads that are not soldering. Probably should
get to 240°C
Look here for solder materials properties
http://www.technicalmaterials.com/metal_prop/soldera.html
Dave Fish
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jorge Rodriguez" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 2:17 PM
Subject: [TN] Need Help with 85-15 Altera QFPs
> > Fellow Technetters:
> >
> > I am sending this looking for any help, I guess I've done
everything
> > as far as the process and I haven't been able to resolve the issue.
We've
> > been having soldering problems for a while with QFPs with 85 Sn/15 Pb
> > finish on the leads. The solder doesn't flow properly and an acceptable
> > solder joint is not formed, the leads can be sometimes lifted with no
> > effort. The solder paste was checked after the screen printer operation
> > and it looked alright, the oven profile was also verified and it's
always
> > within the solder paste manufacturer's recommendations. This problem
seems
> > to be affecting all the different products with this type of component.
> > These part numbers are manufactured by Altera. Has anybody experienced
> > similar problems with QFPs from this manufacturer?, Does anybody have
> > recommendations as far as the reflow oven profile?. I read somewhere
that
> > this particular alloy has the liquidus temperature at 205 degrees, is
this
> > accurate?
> >
> Any help would be really appreciated
>
> > Jorge Rodriguez
> > Process Engineer
> > Varian Electronics Manufacturing
> > E-mail: [log in to unmask]
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
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E-mail Archives
> Please visit IPC web site (http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm) for
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Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 07:59:57 +1300
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Michael Bell <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Organic Silver PCB's
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi there Technetters,
I have now exhausted my efforts of improving the solderability (T/H) of some
RF Organic Silver PCB's we are currently making. Every attempt to improve
the solderability has had no impact. The soldered PCB's show very poor
wetting, partial joints and in some areas there is no evidence of solder.
The PCB is curretly being pre-heated to around 160 deg. C topside and a bath
temperature of 256 deg. C. Is there something I am over looking with the
Organic Silver? Is there any special method/ or profile for Organic SIlver
finished PCB's??? Any feedback would be appreciated.
Cheers
Mike
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Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 10:54:40 -0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Mark Mazzoli <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cu CL etcher
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]
rp.local>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Hi Russ,
I used to run about 1.3-1.5N and about 165g/l Cu with an ORP of 550-580 or
so. It would seem to me that the parameters you listed would lead to a
very fast but somewhat less precise etchant. You may experience undercut
and/or poor conductor edge quality. And you're right about potential
equipment problems, particularly titanium shafts, nuts, bolts, etc. But it
would be fast......... If you're working with 1/4 ounce copper you may want
to stand back a few feet to catch the layers as they fly off.....
Check with Mr. Sedlak..... he is The Man for cupric questions.
Mark
At 10:14 AM 11/28/01 -0800, you wrote:
>----Thanks to everyone for the info , I was a weak on Cupric, (I spent
>my life using mostly Ammonium and Ferric, amongst other more exotic
>etches)
>
>Any way one more simple or not so simple question :
>
> Would you run a Cupric etcher @ 140g/l Cu and 5N HCl .?
>
> Is It a correct assumption that somewhat lower N, and higher
>copper would , provide faster etch rate. It just seems to me that
>operating at an extreme N will basically just cost money in the form of
>excess HCL usage , not to mention the wear and tear on the equipment,
>and operators.,
>
>
>Again thanks for the information!
>
>Russell Smith
>
>
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Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 15:33:45 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Edward H. Uslar" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: FW: Autocad to Solidworks
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> Does anyone know how to import an AutoCAD *.dwg or *.dxf file into
> Solidworks?
>
Thanks,
Ed
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Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 13:27:44 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Igor Bjekic <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Organic Silver PCB's
Question is what type of the flux you are using?
What is the activation temperature and what is required soaking time for the
flux that you are using?
The flux's that I am working with activates at 190 but not to exceed
210F(88-99C) and 210 not to exceed 230F (99-110C). My soaking goal is
minimum 10 seconds.
As much I am able to see from your description, it appears to me that you
are overheating assembly and burning off flux before your board hits the
wave's.
Thank you,
Igor . . .
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Bell [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 12:00 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Organic Silver PCB's
Hi there Technetters,
I have now exhausted my efforts of improving the solderability (T/H)
of some
RF Organic Silver PCB's we are currently making. Every attempt to
improve
the solderability has had no impact. The soldered PCB's show very
poor
wetting, partial joints and in some areas there is no evidence of
solder.
The PCB is curretly being pre-heated to around 160 deg. C topside
and a bath
temperature of 256 deg. C. Is there something I am over looking
with the
Organic Silver? Is there any special method/ or profile for Organic
SIlver
finished PCB's??? Any feedback would be appreciated.
Cheers
Mike
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Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 13:28:49 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Igor Bjekic <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Organic Silver PCB's
Question is what type of the flux you are using?
What is the activation temperature and what is required soaking time
for the flux that you are using?
The flux's that I am working with activates at 190 but not to exceed
210F(88-99C) and 210 not to exceed 230F (99-110C). My soaking goal is
minimum 10 seconds.
As much I am able to see from your description, it appears to me
that you are overheating assembly and burning off flux before your board
hits the wave's.
Thank you,
Igor . . .
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Bell [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 12:00 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Organic Silver PCB's
Hi there Technetters,
I have now exhausted my efforts of improving the
solderability (T/H) of some
RF Organic Silver PCB's we are currently making. Every
attempt to improve
the solderability has had no impact. The soldered PCB's
show very poor
wetting, partial joints and in some areas there is no
evidence of solder.
The PCB is curretly being pre-heated to around 160 deg. C
topside and a bath
temperature of 256 deg. C. Is there something I am over
looking with the
Organic Silver? Is there any special method/ or profile for
Organic SIlver
finished PCB's??? Any feedback would be appreciated.
Cheers
Mike
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Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 15:44:07 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Bill Decray <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: FW: Autocad to Solidworks
In-Reply-To: <B17D7B877D07D211AA1D0008C76C52DA05CF8F@COMPAQSR>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
yes Ed Give me a call
*GOD BLESS AMERICA*
William W. DeCray III
Waytec Electronics Corp
CAD/CAM & Engineering Services Manager
PHONE:(434) 237-6391 ext 115
CELL: (804) 851-6115
FAX: (434) 237-1324
E-mail:<[log in to unmask]>
Web http://www.waytec.com <http://www.waytec.com/>
FTP ftp://ftp.waytec.com <ftp://ftp.waytec.com/>
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Edward H. Uslar
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 3:34 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] FW: Autocad to Solidworks
> Does anyone know how to import an AutoCAD *.dwg or *.dxf file into
> Solidworks?
>
Thanks,
Ed
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Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 15:51:07 EST
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "<Rudy Sedlak>" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Adhesion problems of galvanic gold on electroless nickel gold
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Heinz:
It is almost certain that some residue is on the surface, which is causing
the non-adherent Gold.
Please review the process again....you are putting galvanic Gold (I think it
is more commonly called "immersion gold") on to electroless Nickel, long
after the electroless Nickel has been plated?
If this is the case, this pretty well explains it right there. Electroless
Nickel set up one of the more passive oxide films known, and if you do not go
directly from the Nickel plating tank to the Gold tank, you are asking for
almost exactly what you are getting.
You will have to do drastic things, consider even a brief gold/nickel
stripper, to reactivate the Nickel enough to give you adherent Gold plating.
If I am understanding this correctly, and you are applying dryfilm to the
electroless Nickel, (heat and time = very passive oxide finish on the
Nickel), you may be facing an very difficult activation process to get the
Gold to adhere.
Rudy Sedlak
RD Chemical Company
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Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 15:56:25 EST
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "<Rudy Sedlak>" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cu CL etcher
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Thanks to Mark M for the compliment.
Generally, the lower the acid, the better the "etch ratio", or the less the
"undercut", and the slower the etch....
The higher the Copper, the faster the etch.
And, yes, Mark is right, high acid can lead to attack on Titanium.
And in the US, the cost of the HCl is a trivial part of the cost of the etch,
the oxidizer (Peroxide, or Chlorate) is the costly part, so that should
really not be the deciding factor.
Rudy Sedlak
RD Chemical Company
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Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 07:47:57 +0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "<Peter George Duncan>" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: BGA long term storage?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
How about our afvourite IMC's building up within the component -
ball/component interface for example? Will that affect long term
reliability/solderabity after a long period of storage?
Just thought I'ld throw that one into the pot.
Peter Duncan
"d. terstegge"
<[log in to unmask] To: [log in to unmask]
GROUP.COM> cc: (bcc: DUNCAN Peter/Asst Prin Engr/ST
Sent by: TechNet Aero/ST Group)
<[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: [TN] BGA long term storage?
11/28/01 07:08 PM
Please respond to
"TechNet E-Mail Forum."
Hmmm, seems I'm the only one who adviced not to worry about long term
storage of BGA's. I must admit that I never stored a BGA for 10 years to
see how it solders, but I really don't expect the solderability to decrease
to such an extend that the balls will not solder anymore.
According to Klein Wassink the oxidation layer on solder will grow
approximately logarithmically with time, resulting in about 6nm after 20
years which is just twice as thick as after one year !
So my question is: are nitrogen cabinets, ROSA-technology or redesigns
REALLY necesarry ?
Maybe one of the metallurgists on this forum can add a few words ?
Daan Terstegge
SMT Centre
Thales Communications
Unclassified mail
Personal Website: http://www.smtinfo.net
>>> Graham Collins <[log in to unmask]> 11/27 1:02 pm >>>
Hi Doug!
Indeed - not a new problem - and one we have faced on other programs. It's
just the BGAs that are new to us for this problem.
Nitrogen storage is available here and I expect that's what we will use
(unless some other TechNet guru has a better idea!).
I've heard of ROSA, and in fact Dave was kind enough to send me a 35mm
thick document describing some experiments and results with it. Very
interesting machine. Do you know if anything ever come of the work to
produce a commercial (non-lab) version of this? Hmm... wonder what
happened to Bev's?
Anyway - thanks to everyone for the responses. Nitrogen storage was/is the
plan, but it is always good to have a sanity check with some experts.
regards
Graham Collins
Process Engineer,
Northrop Grumman
Atlantic Facility of Litton Systems Canada
(902) 873-2000 ext 6215
>>> [log in to unmask] 11/26/01 04:11PM >>>
The issue of long term storage of parts or boards is not a new one. The
military, faced with REALLY long lifetimes (e.g. 50 years for a MX missile)
and decreaseing market clout, has had to deal with lifetime buys for a long
time. In my mind, there are two possibilities: (1) preserve the original
solderability for as long as possible, or (2) plan on restoring the
solderability at some point in the future when the part is needed.
In the first case, you will have to setup some fairly elaborate storage
conditions where oxygen and moisture are excluded. Dry nitrogen is most
common, but alternatives could include dessicated conditions or coverage
with a heavy noble gas like argon. You will have to setup incoming and
outgoing logs that tightly control the inventory, and you have to have
floor space for the storage for the life span of the part.
In the second case, you restore the solderable surface. Some people do
this using aggressive fluxes and re-tinning, with limited success. An
alternative to this is to use an electrochemical reduction process called
ROSA to change the surface oxides to the base metal, restoring
solderability. ROSA can be done on many parts at the same time, it is
electroless, and is not too capital intensive. Dave Hillman of Rockwell is
the master of ROSA and has published a number of papers on the topic. He
would probably answer more fully but he is currently putting the finishing
touches on his Master's thesis and so won't stick his head out of his
cubicle for another few days. And when he does, if he sees his shadow,
there will be 5 more months of winter (in Iowa, that's a safe bet). Where
was I?
The advantage of the ROSA approach is that it does not matter all that much
what the solderability condition was when the part was received, and the
storage conditions do not have to be draconian.
As the commercial goes, you can pay me now or pay me later.....
Doug Pauls
Rockwell Collins
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Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 17:50:51 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: David Hillman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Organic Silver PCB's
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi Mike! Please give us a description of "organic" silver. Are you talking
about one of the three immersion silver pwb finishes currently found in the
industry?
Dave Hillman
Rockwell Collins
[log in to unmask]
Michael Bell <[log in to unmask]>@ipc.org> on 11/29/2001 01:59:57 AM
Please respond to "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
cc:
Subject: [TN] Organic Silver PCB's
Hi there Technetters,
I have now exhausted my efforts of improving the solderability (T/H) of
some
RF Organic Silver PCB's we are currently making. Every attempt to improve
the solderability has had no impact. The soldered PCB's show very poor
wetting, partial joints and in some areas there is no evidence of solder.
The PCB is curretly being pre-heated to around 160 deg. C topside and a
bath
temperature of 256 deg. C. Is there something I am over looking with the
Organic Silver? Is there any special method/ or profile for Organic SIlver
finished PCB's??? Any feedback would be appreciated.
Cheers
Mike
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Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 17:56:57 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: David Hillman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Need Help with 85-15 Altera QFPs
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi Jorge! An 85Sn/15Pb solder alloy has a melting (pasty) range of 183C -
209C. Have you checked the solderability of the QFP leads? An 85Sn/15Pb
solder alloy is going to be more prone to having oxidation problems because
of the higher Sn content. Are other components on the same assembly having
similar problems or do you get acceptable solder joints? If the other
components are ok I would investigate the QFP solderability using the
JSTD-002A specification. Good Luck.
Dave Hillman
Rockwell Collins
[log in to unmask]
Jorge Rodriguez <[log in to unmask]>@ipc.org> on 11/27/2001
04:17:09 PM
Please respond to "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
cc:
Subject: [TN] Need Help with 85-15 Altera QFPs
> Fellow Technetters:
>
> I am sending this looking for any help, I guess I've done
everything
> as far as the process and I haven't been able to resolve the issue. We've
> been having soldering problems for a while with QFPs with 85 Sn/15 Pb
> finish on the leads. The solder doesn't flow properly and an acceptable
> solder joint is not formed, the leads can be sometimes lifted with no
> effort. The solder paste was checked after the screen printer operation
> and it looked alright, the oven profile was also verified and it's always
> within the solder paste manufacturer's recommendations. This problem
seems
> to be affecting all the different products with this type of component.
> These part numbers are manufactured by Altera. Has anybody experienced
> similar problems with QFPs from this manufacturer?, Does anybody have
> recommendations as far as the reflow oven profile?. I read somewhere that
> this particular alloy has the liquidus temperature at 205 degrees, is
this
> accurate?
>
Any help would be really appreciated
> Jorge Rodriguez
> Process Engineer
> Varian Electronics Manufacturing
> E-mail: [log in to unmask]
>
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Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 18:15:40 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: David Hillman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Thanks Everyone: Re: [TN] Looking for Information
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi folks! Just a quick thanks to everyone for the Altos contact info. I was
able to obtain the information I needed in record time.
Dave Hillman
Rockwell Collins
[log in to unmask]
"Stephen R. Gregory" <[log in to unmask]>@ipc.org> on 11/26/2001 05:30:45 PM
Please respond to "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
cc:
Subject: Re: [TN] Looking for Information
Hi Dave!
Wasn't able to find anything on Altos Engineering directly, but found what
I think is a rep firm that offers the Altos Engineering Thermal Vacuum
Drying ovens. You might want to contact them to get a contact directly at
Altos. Go to:
http://www.sicoast.com/companies.html
-Steve Gregory-
Hi folks! I'm looking for contact information for Altos Engineering and
their TVP Baking process - anyone have a good email or phone number? Also -
anyone using the TVP Baking process and could share their experiences with
it?
Dave Hillman
Rockwell Collins
[log in to unmask]
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Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 19:56:39 EST
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "<Rudy Sedlak>" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Organic Silver PCB's
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Ahem, Sir Dave:
How many immersion Silver systems did you say there were?
Ever heard of SilveR ShielD?
Do the capitolized last letters of the name give you a hint?
Rudy Sedlak
RD Chemical Company
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Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 17:47:33 -0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Scott R. Madans" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Flexible PC Board
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Howdy All,
I am new to this list and I thank the folks at 3M's
Microflex division for pointing me here. Y'all can blame
them later after reading this lengthily post...
The acceptance of my lousy prototype was excellent, so I was
looking at ideas for a more robust and fine-tuned design
using a flexible circuit.
I need a flexible PC board operating at 12v DC. Size is
about 1/2" x 6" or 8". The mounting is static, but the
flexible shape is required because of the variety of
mountings. Also, the outdoor environment will be greasy,
dusty, wet, cold (-50F), sunny (UV) and hot (120F). So, it
needs to be durable. There will be no direct abrasives.
The board and protection should be no more than about
2/10ths thick.
Is there something like that out there? You've probably
seen that "soft-touch" switch rubber used on keypads. A
slightly firmer version of that with copper cladding (or
something to etch) would be about perfect, as long as it's
tough stuff.
Thanks in advance and I appreciate your guidance.
- Scott
(775) 849-2030
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Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 19:24:21 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Russell Burdick <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Adhesion problems of galvanic gold on electroless nickel gold
Mime-Version: 1.0
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I've seen what I think is a similar problem. I'll describe it and how I
cured it and see if it will help you.
Problem: 50% of surface pads wetted on ENIG surfaces at customer location.
Research: LPI coated panels were ENIG plated. Found peeling LPI and panels
were stripped in an alkaline solution and then LPI reapplied. Suspected that
the alkaline stripping solution or the LPI developer solution (potassium
carbonate ?) had somehow remained on the immersion gold surface.
Cure: After panels are recoated with LPI they must be processed in a hot
alkaline cleaner(cleaner on our black oxide process)then rinsed well and
100% wetting was restored.
Theory: Alkaline contamination was not rinsed from either the stripper or
the developer and ruined the gold surface for solderability. On the chemical
principal that likes-dissolve-likes the hot alkaline cleaner removed this
contaminant and with proper rinsing no residueS remained.
I hope this is helpful.
Russ Burdick
>From: Heinz Mader <[log in to unmask]>
>Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: [TN] Adhesion problems of galvanic gold on electroless nickel gold
>Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 09:32:36 -0600
>
>Hallo outthere in the big pcb world
>A qestion from switzerland
>We produce a board(material G 10) After full plating electroless nickel
>gold the adhesion is good.Then we laminate fotoresist film for goldmask and
>develope with soda.
>We let plate the bond gold externel. This Gold has not enough adhesion
>with tape test We see that not later not after Galvanic plating
>
>Has anyone some experince solving that problem
>
>
>With kind regards
>
>Heinz Mader
>Ascom AG
>3000 Berne
>Switzerland
>
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Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 07:53:57 -0000
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Atkinson, Neil" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Organic Silver PCB's
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I have always seen fairly good wetting of immersion silver PCBs and whilst
they may not be as good as HASL this is usually only evident on the lack of
wetting to the outer edges of lands on the topside of PTH boards and less
fill on larger hole sizes. I have certainly never seen anything like you
are describing.
My first question would be what flux are you using? 160degC topside
temperature after preheat sounds very hot (regardless of finish) and it may
be that a problem with your profile is more evident on the immersion silver
boards.
Regards,
Neil Atkinson
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Bell [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 28 November 2001 19:00
Subject: Organic Silver PCB's
Hi there Technetters,
I have now exhausted my efforts of improving the solderability (T/H) of some
RF Organic Silver PCB's we are currently making. Every attempt to improve
the solderability has had no impact. The soldered PCB's show very poor
wetting, partial joints and in some areas there is no evidence of solder.
The PCB is curretly being pre-heated to around 160 deg. C topside and a bath
temperature of 256 deg. C. Is there something I am over looking with the
Organic Silver? Is there any special method/ or profile for Organic SIlver
finished PCB's??? Any feedback would be appreciated.
Cheers
Mike
_____________________________________________________________________
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Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 03:16:00 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Heinz Mader <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Adhesion problems of galvanic gold on electroless nickel gold
X-To: "<Rudy Sedlak>" <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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Rudy
I must say ,that we make full ENIG (electroless Nickel-with immersion
gold).Then after laminating and developing dry-film-resist there comes the
galvanic (electrolycal gold) from about 3 =B5m Au)
Heinz Mader
Ascom AG
300 Berne
Switzerland
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Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 10:42:00 +0000
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Peter Barton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Fiducial Markings - do they mean anything?
X-To: [log in to unmask]
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
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Peter,
Use the type that your equipments' vision system prefers. Just for info we
use diamonds (well, 1mm squares turned at 45 deg. actually). Something else
to bear in mind is surface finish and contrast with the surrounding
background. If using HASL make sure your PCB supplier can give a relatively
flat finish. If excessively applied you end up with a 'domed' effect and the
vision system may have difficulty with that as the greyscale values will
vary as the illumination is reflected all over the place (I've had no end of
trouble with this!). Also leave a nice big clearance in your resist if you
can. In the end, give your equipment as much chance as possible to recognise
the marks, whatever the preferred shape.
From what you say you are somewhat hamstrung by what your customer has
designed in. Try to exert some influence on their designers if you can. It
works wonders in the longer run.
Best regards,
===== Original Message from [log in to unmask] at 28/11/01 11:23
>Hot on the heels of the smelly paste saga (some of the new ones that you
>turned up are great - we haven't come off the ceiling yet).
>
>Fiducials - just a quick survey (and Bob you may already have posted
>something similar so apologies if the answer is staring me in the face). We
>don't use them - yet - as most stuff here is hand placed but as we venture
>into the twilight zone of automated production I am starting to take an
>interest in them. Up to now they were just pretty little signs that we
>thought were ancient runic inscriptions from the days of the early Viking
>coastal raids - Ericsson the Mobile and Nokia the Trendy being just two
>names that have come forward.
>
>Question is - what is the most popular - I would have said that crosses were
>the most common but I looked back over several boards from different places
>and found circles and the occasional butterfly were more common than I
>thought.
>
>As the machine we have in mind (yes its an old one) doesn't like crosses we
>would prefer circles but we mostly have to smile sweetly and say thank you
>for whatever we get. So what does everyone else use? And given the chance,
>would you use a different shape?
>
>regards
>
>Peter Allgood
>
>Allgood Technology Ltd, 1 Horton Court, Hortonwood 50, Telford, TF1 7GY
>Tel and Fax 01952 677145 Web: www.allgoodsmt.com
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Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 11:10:00 +0000
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Peter Barton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Apologies
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
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Please ignore message sent re: Fiducials. I inadvertently sent this to the
wrong discussion forum.
Apologies for any inconvenience caused.
Regards,
PEter Barton
Peter Barton
Senior Process Engineer
ACW Technology Limited
Tel: 01443 425275
Fax: 01443 436882
E-mail [log in to unmask]
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Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 11:35:00 +0000
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Peter Barton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: (none)
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Mike,
I have used immersion silver (Alpha Level) at times in the past using the
same temperature profile as for HASL finished boards and had good wetting at
both bottom and topside. Are you subjecting this assembly to any surface
mount processes before wave soldering? Multiple processing of this type of
finish can progressively degrade the solderability at each stage but you'd
have to be pretty aggressive.
What is the state of the unpopulated PCB's? Is the finish bright or dull
with black or dark areas on the solderable surfaces? What is the finish
called?
Also,like other responses on this forum your preheat temperature seems
excessively high, even if you were using a water based VOC free flux you'd
only need a max. of around 110-115 deg. C topside. What flux are you using?
Regards
Peter Barton
ACW Technology Limited
===== Original Message from [log in to unmask] (TechNet E-Mail Forum.) at
28/11/01 18:59
>Hi there Technetters,
>
>I have now exhausted my efforts of improving the solderability (T/H) of some
>RF Organic Silver PCB's we are currently making. Every attempt to improve
>the solderability has had no impact. The soldered PCB's show very poor
>wetting, partial joints and in some areas there is no evidence of solder.
>The PCB is curretly being pre-heated to around 160 deg. C topside and a bath
>temperature of 256 deg. C. Is there something I am over looking with the
>Organic Silver? Is there any special method/ or profile for Organic SIlver
>finished PCB's??? Any feedback would be appreciated.
>
>Cheers
>
>Mike
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Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 08:43:16 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Hinners Hans M Civ WRALC/LUGE <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cu CL etcher
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi Russell,
I've run a VCM etcher at upwards of 2 N (our target had always been 1 N) but
we had to - long lead-time on a replacement metering pump and a shorter
delivery date. The operators asked, "How come we can do it at 2 N all of a
sudden?" My quick answer was "You've got to pick some number to run it at
and this one minimized process variation" but I'm glad to learn a better
answer. I'm always learning something new from the list.
Thanks guys!
Hans
Integrity First - Service Before Self - Excellence in All We Do
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hans M. Hinners
Electronics Engineer
Warner Robins - Air Logistics Center (WR-ALC/LUGE)
Special Operations Forces System Program Office (SOF - SPO)
Gunship Team
226 Cochran Street
Robins AFB GA 31098-1622
mailto:[log in to unmask]
Com: (478) 926 - 5224
Fax: (478) 926 - 4911
DSN Prefix: 468
-----Original Message-----
From: Smith, Russell (US LA) [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 1:15 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Cu CL etcher
----Thanks to everyone for the info , I was a weak on Cupric, (I spent
my life using mostly Ammonium and Ferric, amongst other more exotic
etches)
Any way one more simple or not so simple question :
Would you run a Cupric etcher @ 140g/l Cu and 5N HCl .?
Is It a correct assumption that somewhat lower N, and higher
copper would , provide faster etch rate. It just seems to me that
operating at an extreme N will basically just cost money in the form of
excess HCL usage , not to mention the wear and tear on the equipment,
and operators.,
Again thanks for the information!
Russell Smith
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Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 07:08:27 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Barry Gallegos <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Wave Solder Profiling
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Good morning Technetters.
Is there anyone that could provide some good advise on Wave solder
profiling. I am not sure
of what kind of parameters to try to maintain. I really would be interested
in any documentation
that would break down min/max preheat temps vs. times etc. Dwell times on
the pot and so
forth.
all help will be greatly appreciated.
Thank you in advance.
Barry Gallegos
Process Engineer
Western Electronics
1550 South Tech Lane
Meridian, Idaho 83642
Phone: 208/955-9771
Fax: 208/955-9755
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Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 08:32:03 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: David Hillman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Organic Silver PCB's
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi Rudy! Sorry, I was just thinking about the three immersion silver
finishes I have worked with - you are correct, there are several other
immersion silver finishes available on the market. My big confusion was the
term "organic" silver - is there two types of immersion silver finishes:
organic versus metallic? Or is the use of the term "organic" describing
some of the codeposited constituents of an immersion silver finish?
Dave Hillman
Rockwell Collins
[log in to unmask]
"<Rudy Sedlak>" <[log in to unmask]>@ipc.org> on 11/28/2001 06:56:39 PM
Please respond to "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
cc:
Subject: Re: [TN] Organic Silver PCB's
Ahem, Sir Dave:
How many immersion Silver systems did you say there were?
Ever heard of SilveR ShielD?
Do the capitolized last letters of the name give you a hint?
Rudy Sedlak
RD Chemical Company
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Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 08:32:28 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Wave Solder Profiling
X-To: Barry Gallegos <[log in to unmask]>
Barry,
You, me, and everyone else knows I've no business contributing to this
discussion and your question. Well, just so happens, I have little else to
do at this moment. Also, I love wave soldering because it is so, how shall I
say it, mechanical and straightforward. My problems is a lack of any type
understanding about IMC stuff. No matter1
You know the mechanisms as flux type and quality/composition, activation
temperature, preheater temperature required to ensure the top side board
temperature is properly reached as an indication of flux activation as
specified, conveyor speed relateive to the foregoing and its relationship to
dwell time on the solder pot, board parallelism on the wave, angle on the
wave, and all the rest.
I like wave soldering because all the above must be interoperable and
correlate with each function, mechanism, time, and chemistry in the whole
process. I call each function, again as above, sub-processes because that's
what they are. Each sub-process must be managed independently and
associatively for the "whole" process to work. If it works, solder joints
meet specified requirements. If it, or any one of the "independent"
sub-processes, don't work, solder joints suck.
To your original question, I make a matrix including all the above
parameters and include the board thermal mass (single, double, MLB, etc.)
and go out and measure each function in each sub-process in the process and
see what happens.
Most new/automatic machines as Electras and the like have computerized
matrices included. However, I always "calibrate" the automated sub-processes
and ensure they meet specified requirements.
Anyway, the process is cool though being pushed to the limits with very high
layer count MLB's with incredibly high thermal masses. Simpler 12 layer
boards used to run at predetermined speed between 3-6 feet/minute and you
could set your watch by it. Now, with some of the 40 and 50 plus layer
boards I, and some of you, have been working, speeds are much slower and
flux often is very active. You can imaging the preheat temps with some of
these things and no IPC through hole acceptance criteria comes close to reality.
And on it goes. Life and the wave soldering process is a continuing
experiment with CPI as its goal - though not often enough realized.
MoonMan
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Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 10:00:45 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: tech <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Dielectric constant vs degree of cure , FR4
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Does the dielectric constant ( and resultant impedance results) of FR4
vary with degree of cure of the resin system ? I.e can multi layer press
parameters influence finished board impedances ? Any info. will be
appreciated.
Paul Greene
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Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 09:09:35 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Dielectric constant vs degree of cure , FR4
X-To: Paul Greene <[log in to unmask]>
DC calculations are made for core material as such. This means the DC does
not change for it in whatever MLB structure.
For prepregs, DC is calculated based on expected effects after cure in the
press - in the book - in the MLB. Variations are minor, within but a percent
or two, for the same glass styles and resin contents used in the structures.
"Good" board shops will provide pre-calculated DC numbers both for core and
prepregs used. Still, the numbers vary minimally and your overall impedance
will be little affected. However, for very high speed stuff, this can be
critical though little FR4 is used in these designs. You can then calculate
the requirements based on DC, thickness, trace widths (for differential
pairs as stripline [boradside and edge rate requirements] and microstrip
requirements).
MoonMan
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Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 15:08:20 -0000
Reply-To: "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Dougal Stewart <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Solder Resist and QFP's
MIME-Version: 1.0
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From a fabricator viewpoint, there are one or two things to bear in mind.
Firstly the accuracy of print registration will at best be +/-50um (+/-
2mil) if your fab house uses automatic registration, secondly, the minimum
'web' width that will remain through subsequent processing is about 85um
(2.5 mil) AT THE BOARD SOLDERMASK INTERFACE - this is important because
most masks will be undercut during developing, and may require an artwork
width of 6mils to achieve the web. Add these two factors together, and this
means the only chance of getting a web between pads is if the gap between
pads is 10mils minimum. If your QFP is on a 20 mil pitch (actually 19.6
mil), the pad width will have to be designed at 8 mil (there is an etch
tolerance and you need to understand that the top of the pad and bottom of
the pad will be different widths - which do you specify?). Now most
designers with a 12mil gap will want to run a 4/4 track and gap in there -
now you have soldermask covering the track and the soldermask height is
over the track and therefore the soldermask MUST BE HIGHER than the pad you
wish to solder to. This will create a problem with solder pasting, so the
answer is don't run tracks between these pads if you want to have high
assembly yields.
Dougal Stewart
email [log in to unmask]
telephone +44 1896 822204
mobile +44 7984 629667
-----Original Message-----
From: Furrow, Robert Gordon (Bob) [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 28 November 2001 13:27
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Solder Resist and QFP's
Mike,
I think that a good board shop should be able to avoid contaminating the
pad
surface with resist. The larger concern I would have is if in any areas the
solder resist height is above the surface of the pad, your stencil will not
gasket properly and you can actually increase the number of shorts.
Thanks,
Robert Furrow
Printed Wiring Board Engineer
Strategic Supply Global Account Manager
Supply Chain Networks
Lucent Technologies
978-960-3224 [log in to unmask]
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Bell [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 5:15 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Solder Resist and QFP's
Hi all,
What are peoples thoughts on solder resist between fine pitch micro pads???
I have recently heard two differing theories regarding this matter, one is
that solder resist between the pads on some very fine pitch QFP's will
reduce the risk of solder shorts. The other theory was that with solder
resist between these pads you could risk getting the resist onto the pads
and reducing the soldering surface??? What is the general consensus on
this
matter??? Which approach to others take on this matter?
Cheers
Mike
<< File: ATT00000.htm >>
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Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 09:29:00 -0600
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Stephen S. Schiera" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Color additives for conformal coat
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I have a current request from a customer for a conformal coat that has a
visible coloring agent such as "red or blue". We currently use an acrylic
coating with a UV trace and UL approval. Does anyone use or know of visible
color traces for coatings?
Thanks in advance
Steve
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Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 07:58:24 -0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Chuck Brummer <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Flexible PC Board
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Scott,
2/10s of a mil? Like .0002"? You need a dielectric to hold the conductor and I don't think
you will find anything that thin. We work with thinner materials than most and we make a
number or parts on .0005" polyimide with 3 microns of copper. If anyone has anything less
than that I would like to talk to them.
Chuck Brummer
Acuson (818)734-4930
"Scott R. Madans" wrote:
> Howdy All,
>
> I am new to this list and I thank the folks at 3M's
> Microflex division for pointing me here. Y'all can blame
> them later after reading this lengthily post...
>
> The acceptance of my lousy prototype was excellent, so I was
> looking at ideas for a more robust and fine-tuned design
> using a flexible circuit.
>
> I need a flexible PC board operating at 12v DC. Size is
> about 1/2" x 6" or 8". The mounting is static, but the
> flexible shape is required because of the variety of
> mountings. Also, the outdoor environment will be greasy,
> dusty, wet, cold (-50F), sunny (UV) and hot (120F). So, it
> needs to be durable. There will be no direct abrasives.
> The board and protection should be no more than about
> 2/10ths thick.
>
> Is there something like that out there? You've probably
> seen that "soft-touch" switch rubber used on keypads. A
> slightly firmer version of that with copper cladding (or
> something to etch) would be about perfect, as long as it's
> tough stuff.
>
> Thanks in advance and I appreciate your guidance.
>
> - Scott
> (775) 849-2030
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d
> To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in
> the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet
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> Please visit IPC web site (http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm) for additional
> information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-509-9700 ext.5315
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 08:08:58 -0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Scott R. Madans" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Flexible PC Board
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Sorry, the world of mils and microns is new to me. It is
0.2 inches!
- Scott
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Chuck
Brummer
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 07:58 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Flexible PC Board
Scott,
2/10s of a mil? Like .0002"? You need a dielectric to hold
the conductor and I don't think
you will find anything that thin. We work with thinner
materials than most and we make a
number or parts on .0005" polyimide with 3 microns of
copper. If anyone has anything less
than that I would like to talk to them.
Chuck Brummer
Acuson (818)734-4930
"Scott R. Madans" wrote:
> Howdy All,
>
> I am new to this list and I thank the folks at 3M's
> Microflex division for pointing me here. Y'all can blame
> them later after reading this lengthily post...
>
> The acceptance of my lousy prototype was excellent, so I
was
> looking at ideas for a more robust and fine-tuned design
> using a flexible circuit.
>
> I need a flexible PC board operating at 12v DC. Size is
> about 1/2" x 6" or 8". The mounting is static, but the
> flexible shape is required because of the variety of
> mountings. Also, the outdoor environment will be greasy,
> dusty, wet, cold (-50F), sunny (UV) and hot (120F). So,
it
> needs to be durable. There will be no direct abrasives.
> The board and protection should be no more than about
> 2/10ths thick.
>
> Is there something like that out there? You've probably
> seen that "soft-touch" switch rubber used on keypads. A
> slightly firmer version of that with copper cladding (or
> something to etch) would be about perfect, as long as it's
> tough stuff.
>
> Thanks in advance and I appreciate your guidance.
>
> - Scott
> (775) 849-2030
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------
> Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using
LISTSERV 1.8d
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> Please visit IPC web site
(http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm) for additional
> information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask]
or 847-509-9700 ext.5315
> ----------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------
------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------
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Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 08:25:02 -0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Chuck Brummer <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Flexible PC Board
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Scott,
0.2 inches is not going to be very flexible. There are other options like rigid flex,
circuits that are polyimide glass at the ends but have a flex conection. Can you tell us more
about your needs. How many layers, what weight of copper, conductor requirements
(line/space)? Maybe someone has some other ideas for you.
Chuck Brummer
"Scott R. Madans" wrote:
> Sorry, the world of mils and microns is new to me. It is
> 0.2 inches!
>
> - Scott
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Chuck
> Brummer
> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 07:58 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Flexible PC Board
>
> Scott,
>
> 2/10s of a mil? Like .0002"? You need a dielectric to hold
> the conductor and I don't think
> you will find anything that thin. We work with thinner
> materials than most and we make a
> number or parts on .0005" polyimide with 3 microns of
> copper. If anyone has anything less
> than that I would like to talk to them.
>
> Chuck Brummer
> Acuson (818)734-4930
>
> "Scott R. Madans" wrote:
>
> > Howdy All,
> >
> > I am new to this list and I thank the folks at 3M's
> > Microflex division for pointing me here. Y'all can blame
> > them later after reading this lengthily post...
> >
> > The acceptance of my lousy prototype was excellent, so I
> was
> > looking at ideas for a more robust and fine-tuned design
> > using a flexible circuit.
> >
> > I need a flexible PC board operating at 12v DC. Size is
> > about 1/2" x 6" or 8". The mounting is static, but the
> > flexible shape is required because of the variety of
> > mountings. Also, the outdoor environment will be greasy,
> > dusty, wet, cold (-50F), sunny (UV) and hot (120F). So,
> it
> > needs to be durable. There will be no direct abrasives.
> > The board and protection should be no more than about
> > 2/10ths thick.
> >
> > Is there something like that out there? You've probably
> > seen that "soft-touch" switch rubber used on keypads. A
> > slightly firmer version of that with copper cladding (or
> > something to etch) would be about perfect, as long as it's
> > tough stuff.
> >
> > Thanks in advance and I appreciate your guidance.
> >
> > - Scott
> > (775) 849-2030
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> -----------------------
> > Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using
> LISTSERV 1.8d
> > To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with
> following text in
> > the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet
> > To temporarily halt delivery of Technet send the following
> message: SET Technet NOMAIL
> > Search previous postings at: www.ipc.org > On-Line
> Resources & Databases > E-mail Archives
> > Please visit IPC web site
> (http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm) for additional
> > information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask]
> or 847-509-9700 ext.5315
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> -----------------------
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------------
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> ------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------------
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 11:39:48 EST
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Brad Saunders <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Dielectric constant vs degree of cure , FR4
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="part1_15d.4df7eba.2937bed4_boundary"
--part1_15d.4df7eba.2937bed4_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
FR4 will not change Er due to cure temp at fabrication, however the press
cycle may. Total dielectric constant (Er) is a function of the main
ingredients of Eglass (6.28 Er) and Resin (3.6 for epoxy). The higher the
Eglass content the higher resultant Er. Hence, any "above normal" squeeze
out of resin will have the propensity to increase resultant Er for B-stage,
C-stage is a little different. I say "propensity" for the Er is estimating
averages and empiric data that over time develops a heritage of dependable
predictability. Sameness is good.
Copper thickness may be a culprit if impedance are varying. >.0007 and edges
can start getting ragged. I introduce this relative to fixed cycles of press
times and the amount of field support for dielectric materials. Copper
etching may be more subjective and susceptible to OE (Operator Error). Given
that the fabrication is repeatable, which it is, deliverable impedance can go
significantly below the standard +/-10%, otherwise we couldn't deliver 25 ohm
boards.
Brad
--part1_15d.4df7eba.2937bed4_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>FR4 will not change Er due to cure temp at fabrication, however the press cycle may. Total dielectric constant (Er) is a function of the main ingredients of Eglass (6.28 Er) and Resin (3.6 for epoxy). The higher the Eglass content the higher resultant Er. Hence, any "above normal" squeeze out of resin will have the propensity to increase resultant Er for B-stage, C-stage is a little different. I say "propensity" for the Er is estimating averages and empiric data that over time develops a heritage of dependable predictability. Sameness is good.
<BR>
<BR>Copper thickness may be a culprit if impedance are varying. >.0007 and edges can start getting ragged. I introduce this relative to fixed cycles of press times and the amount of field support for dielectric materials. Copper etching may be more subjective and susceptible to OE (Operator Error). Given that the fabrication is repeatable, which it is, deliverable impedance can go significantly below the standard +/-10%, otherwise we couldn't deliver 25 ohm boards.
<BR>
<BR>Brad</FONT></HTML>
--part1_15d.4df7eba.2937bed4_boundary--
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Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 08:50:36 -0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Scott R. Madans" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Flexible PC Board
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Chuck,
0.2 inches is the max I can work with. Anything less would
be fine, as long as it can handle the extremes of the
environment.
The item needed is very crude, I think, compared to what
y'all are doing. I am probably in the wrong forum for this.
If so, perhaps someone can point me in the right direction.
The finished product will be about 0.5 inches wide and 6.0
to 8.0 inches long (by any thickness up to 0.2").
Edge-mounted will be a dozen, to two dozen, LEDs.
Flexibility, long-term weather resistance, and 12vDC are
just about my only specs. It would be a huge plus if it
would retain the curve when bent.
Unfortunately, I don't have enough background in EE to be
much more specific. From the posts I have received since
subscribing yesterday, this group is clearly THE PLACE for
the coolest electronics manufacturing technology. I didn't
know what Polyimide was until yesterday!
Thanks for the help,
Scott
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Chuck
Brummer
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 08:25 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Flexible PC Board
Scott,
0.2 inches is not going to be very flexible. There are
other options like rigid flex,
circuits that are polyimide glass at the ends but have a
flex conection. Can you tell us more
about your needs. How many layers, what weight of copper,
conductor requirements
(line/space)? Maybe someone has some other ideas for you.
Chuck Brummer
"Scott R. Madans" wrote:
> Sorry, the world of mils and microns is new to me. It is
> 0.2 inches!
>
> - Scott
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Chuck
> Brummer
> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 07:58 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Flexible PC Board
>
> Scott,
>
> 2/10s of a mil? Like .0002"? You need a dielectric to
hold
> the conductor and I don't think
> you will find anything that thin. We work with thinner
> materials than most and we make a
> number or parts on .0005" polyimide with 3 microns of
> copper. If anyone has anything less
> than that I would like to talk to them.
>
> Chuck Brummer
> Acuson (818)734-4930
>
> "Scott R. Madans" wrote:
>
> > Howdy All,
> >
> > I am new to this list and I thank the folks at 3M's
> > Microflex division for pointing me here. Y'all can
blame
> > them later after reading this lengthily post...
> >
> > The acceptance of my lousy prototype was excellent, so I
> was
> > looking at ideas for a more robust and fine-tuned design
> > using a flexible circuit.
> >
> > I need a flexible PC board operating at 12v DC. Size is
> > about 1/2" x 6" or 8". The mounting is static, but the
> > flexible shape is required because of the variety of
> > mountings. Also, the outdoor environment will be
greasy,
> > dusty, wet, cold (-50F), sunny (UV) and hot (120F). So,
> it
> > needs to be durable. There will be no direct abrasives.
> > The board and protection should be no more than about
> > 2/10ths thick.
> >
> > Is there something like that out there? You've probably
> > seen that "soft-touch" switch rubber used on keypads. A
> > slightly firmer version of that with copper cladding (or
> > something to etch) would be about perfect, as long as
it's
> > tough stuff.
> >
> > Thanks in advance and I appreciate your guidance.
> >
> > - Scott
> > (775) 849-2030
> >
>
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Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 10:51:00 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: FTIR Cards
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I have a question for the chemists in the crowd. 3M used to make
disposable cards for FT-IR analysis with polyethylene or PTFE meshes to
hold liquid samples. VWR tells me that 3M no longer makes such a product
and I can't seem to find them anywhere else. A company called Spectra-tech
makes something similar, but much more expensive. Does anyone know if
there are other manufacturers of these products? I could go to a
demountable liquid cell, but there would be lots of time rinsing cells
between analyses and I have a bunch to go through. Any help would be
appreciated.
Doug Pauls
Rockwell Collins
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Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 16:53:51 -0000
Reply-To: "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Dougal Stewart <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Dielectric constant vs degree of cure , FR4
MIME-Version: 1.0
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perhaps someone from the laminate industry can explain why if you draw a
straight line graph between all e glass @ 6.28 and all resin @3.6 , the
resulting line is parallel to but not overlaying the Dk graph for your
material.
Dougal Stewart
email [log in to unmask]
telephone +44 1896 822204
mobile +44 7984 629667
-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Saunders [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 29 November 2001 16:40
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Dielectric constant vs degree of cure , FR4
FR4 will not change Er due to cure temp at fabrication, however the press
cycle may. Total dielectric constant (Er) is a function of the main
ingredients of Eglass (6.28 Er) and Resin (3.6 for epoxy). The higher the
Eglass content the higher resultant Er. Hence, any "above normal" squeeze
out of resin will have the propensity to increase resultant Er for B-stage,
C-stage is a little different. I say "propensity" for the Er is estimating
averages and empiric data that over time develops a heritage of dependable
predictability. Sameness is good.
Copper thickness may be a culprit if impedance are varying. >.0007 and
edges
can start getting ragged. I introduce this relative to fixed cycles of
press
times and the amount of field support for dielectric materials. Copper
etching may be more subjective and susceptible to OE (Operator Error).
Given
that the fabrication is repeatable, which it is, deliverable impedance can
go
significantly below the standard +/-10%, otherwise we couldn't deliver 25
ohm
boards.
Brad
<< File: ATT00002.htm >>
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Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 09:10:26 -0800
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Hans Shin <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: FTIR Cards
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Doug,
Even though the Spectra-tech cards are more expensive, I would go with
those. Actually, I think other card makers also raised their prices...of
the few makers that are out there. The spectra-tech ones come closest to
the 3M cards.
There are also cards that have a metallic wire mesh...but they don't work
too well.
Hans Shin
Pacific Testing Laboratories
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of
[log in to unmask]
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 8:51 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] FTIR Cards
I have a question for the chemists in the crowd. 3M used to make
disposable cards for FT-IR analysis with polyethylene or PTFE meshes to
hold liquid samples. VWR tells me that 3M no longer makes such a product
and I can't seem to find them anywhere else. A company called Spectra-tech
makes something similar, but much more expensive. Does anyone know if
there are other manufacturers of these products? I could go to a
demountable liquid cell, but there would be lots of time rinsing cells
between analyses and I have a bunch to go through. Any help would be
appreciated.
Doug Pauls
Rockwell Collins
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Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 11:37:11 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Dielectric constant vs degree of cure , FR4
X-To: Brad Saunders <[log in to unmask]>
This serious discussion could be fun.
Considering today's single ply designs and requirements for constructions
as, say, 4 mil dielectrics using, say, 2113 glass, there's not a lot of
"squeeze out" happening. The resin to glass ratio is moderate or about ideal
and when a specified press cycle is used, variations are minimal. Few folks
are going to high pressure, not that it matters, or are changing recommended
press cycles so few negative, or out of tolerance, changes should be
observed concerning impedance.
As you said, the press cycle is pretty much pre-determined for time, temp,
and pressure. Therefore, as little consequence is observable, there should
be very little change in the dielectric constant or the final impedance effects.
Foil thickness and, more importantly, edge raggedness, as a result of
operator process management ineffectiveness certainly is a major contributor
to wider changes in the final outcome. With all this, I don't believe the
press cycle to be a major factor unless it is greatly mis-managed. Getting
to 25 ohms impedance, depending on design requirements, is a trick unto itself.
MoonMan
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Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 11:55:52 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Kathy Kuhlow <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Rusty
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_81DCB6A5.B9D8B5E6"
This is a MIME message. If you are reading this text, you may want to
consider changing to a mail reader or gateway that understands how to
properly handle MIME multipart messages.
--=_81DCB6A5.B9D8B5E6
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline
I was asked a question today and I can't seem to find the answer. I think =
I know but I need more then a gut feel.
Is rust conductive, just a by product, or both? The materials we were =
discussing are phosphorus, bronze, iron. Thanks in advance. =20
Kat
--=_81DCB6A5.B9D8B5E6
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="TEXT.htm"
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1" http-equiv=Content-Type>
<META content="MSHTML 5.00.2919.6307" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY
style="FONT: 10pt Abadi MT Condensed Light; MARGIN-LEFT: 2px; MARGIN-TOP: 2px">
<DIV>I was asked a question today and I can't seem to find the answer. I
think I know but I need more then a gut feel.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Is rust conductive, just a by product, or both? The materials we were
discussing are phosphorus, bronze, iron. Thanks in advance. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Kat</DIV></BODY></HTML>
--=_81DCB6A5.B9D8B5E6--
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Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 18:20:19 -0000
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Graham Naisbitt <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Color additives for conformal coat
X-To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Steve
Adding anything to the coating after approvals testing will negate its
qualification / approval status.
Why does the customer want a color? Does he want it to be opaque?
We have experimented with pigments and some of them work - what color would
you like? However, they do cause a major problem for the manufacturer,
because that color does not go easily away for subsequent batches.
More particularly, adding pigments can disturb the dielectrical and other
protective characteristics that might be desirable. Check this before you
jump.
If we are talking opaque - then we have to add fillers. These greatly
influence the moisture protection that you DO want from the coating because
they cause an easier path for moist air / water to move through the film.
This is not good and is why the US military called for the use of UV
tracers.
If the customer is trying to hide something - forget it! We can remove any
coating with enough time, patience and enthusiasm!
Hope this helps.
Regards, Graham Naisbitt
[log in to unmask]
www.concoat.co.uk <http://www.concoat.co.uk>
For instant access to Product Data Sheets register on the Tech-Shot area of
http:// www.concoat.co.uk <http://www.concoat.co.uk>
Concoat Limited
Alasan House, Albany Park
CAMBERLEY GU16 7PH UK
Phone: +44 (0)1276 691100
Fax: +44 (0)1276 691227
Mobile: +44 (0)79 6858 2121
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Stephen S. Schiera
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 03:29
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Color additives for conformal coat
I have a current request from a customer for a conformal coat that has a
visible coloring agent such as "red or blue". We currently use an acrylic
coating with a UV trace and UL approval. Does anyone use or know of visible
color traces for coatings?
Thanks in advance
Steve
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Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 10:40:35 -0800
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Ahne Oosterhof <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Rusty
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Cannot resist: For those in the rust business, rust is a product. For most
of us it is just a nuisance to be prevented.
But from somebody in the rust (iron oxide) business
(http://www.sh.com/ie/yht.htm) I found this:
Iron Oxide Yellow 313C
Specification: Matter volatile at 105 degrees centigrade (m/m)<%: 0.8 Water
soluble matter% : 0.15 Sieve residue on 0.045mm (m/m) < %:0.3 PH of water
suspension: 5.2 Fe2O3 (m/m) > %:87.1 conductivity us/cm: 175
And then a little more to confuse the issue:
Introduction
Electrochemical studies of Fe oxides have been surely initiated in corrosion
science. Formation of Fe oxides and their further reactions were
characterized in aim to learn more about corrosion resistance of steel. The
first reports were almost exclusively focused on magnetite, Fe3O4, because
it is sufficiently conductive to permit the direct study with a bulk
electrode, i.e. a piece of magnetite attached to the potentiostat, and it
yields several electrochemical reactions. Magnetite is the best starting
point to learn more about electrochemistry of Fe oxides. Lately it was found
that Fe3O4 and different polymorphs of Fe2O3 and FeOOH behave differently
(Keiser et al.).
Related to this topic is the reductive dissolution of Fe(III) oxides, whose
impact significantly exceeds the scope of pure electrochemistry (for a
review of metal oxide dissolution see Blesa et al. 1994). Reductive
dissolution is important in energy production (cleaning steel surfaces
corroded by hot water), environmental analysis (speciation of metals in
sediments and wastes) and also in the cycle of Fe oxides in natural
environment (mineral weathering, soil chemistry).
Another phenomenon studied is electrolysis of water on Fe-oxide electrodes,
which accidentally lead to discovery of oxygen insertion into Co and also Fe
oxides.
The electrochemical properties of Fe oxides are mainly controlled by two
factors: the phase composition and substitution of Fe by other metals. The
most important phases are Fe3O4 (magnetite), Fe2O3 (hematite and maghemite),
FeOOH (goethite, lepidocrocite, and few others), spinels such as MeFe2O4,
and perovskites such as SrFeO3. The commonest metals substituting Fe are Al
and Cr. The sensitivity of electrochemical properties to the oxide structure
has been proposed several times for electroanalysis, but since now other
techniques, in particular X-ray diffraction and Mössbauer spectroscopy, have
won. However, reductive dissolution of Fe(III) oxides by chemical agents is
a generally accepted analytical tool in soil and environemntal chemistry.
Good luck with the micro Siemens.
Ahne.
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Kathy Kuhlow
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 09:56
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Rusty
<< File: TEXT.htm >> I was asked a question today and I can't seem to find
the answer. I think I know but I need more then a gut feel.
Is rust conductive, just a by product, or both? The materials we were
discussing are phosphorus, bronze, iron. Thanks in advance.
Kat
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Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 10:52:07 -0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Crepeau, Phil" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: FTIR Cards
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hi,
two responses from chris murphy in our chemistry lab.
phil
---------------------
Hi Phil,
I haven't heard of these disposable mesh cards. Our typical sources for infrared accessories are Thermo Nicolet, Thermo Spectra-Tech, Perkin Elmer, Harrick Scientific or Janos Technology.
<http://www.photonics.com/>
<http://www.thermonicolet.com>
http://www.thermospectra-tech.com
<http://www.harricksci.com>
http://www.perkinelmer.com
Chris Murphy
TRW Chemistry Technology Department
310-813-9355
Phil,
Could this be what he is looking for?
http://www.janostech.com/products/screencell.html
Rockwell Collins
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Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:57:04 EST
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Stephen R. Gregory" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Rusty
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Hi Kat!
Rust is not conductive...I tried to find something on the web that states=20
that precisely, and found this, not exactly scientific, but sounds to me lik=
e=20
a voice of experience...
-Steve Gregory-
Using O Gauge Outdoors: Some Do=E2=80=99s and Don=E2=80=99ts
by <A HREF=3D"http://www.trainweb.org/ttos-pnw/former_officers.htm">Doug Gra=
y</A>=20
Perhaps you have toyed with the outdoor railroad ideas, but dismissed them=20
having heard somewhere that only G Scale can be used outdoors. And, since=20
many of us have collections of O Gauge trains, the added expense of starting=
=20
a new G Gauge collection deters you from outdoor railroading. The solution?=20
Use your O gauge outdoors! A great advantage is that you can finally have th=
e=20
long right of ways that you have no room for indoors. Based upon my decade o=
f=20
experience, it does work, but there are some precautions to observe.First,=20
let us start with the track system. Gargraves, and other manufacturers, make=
=20
track designed for outdoors, utilizing stainless steel rails and UV treated=20
plastic ties. Ordinary sectional indoor track will last about a week before=20
rust takes over. It will first appear on the rail surfaces, and soon the pin=
s=20
will rust and there will be no electrical conductivity. =20
> I was asked a question today and I can't seem to find the answer. I think=
I=20
> know but I need more then a gut feel.
>=20
> Is rust conductive, just a by product, or both? The materials we were=20
> discussing are phosphorus, bronze, iron. Thanks in advance. =20
>=20
> Kat
>=20
--part1_f6.13221ee2.2937df00_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Language: en
<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">Hi Kat!
<BR>
<BR>Rust is not conductive...I tried to find something on the web that state=
s that precisely, and found this, not exactly scientific, but sounds to me l=
ike a voice of experience...
<BR>
<BR>-Steve Gregory-
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#ff0000" SIZE=3D4 FAMILY=3D"SCRIPT" FACE=3D"Comic=
Sans MS" LANG=3D"0"><B>Using O Gauge Outdoors: Some Do=E2=80=99s and Don=
=E2=80=99ts
<BR><P ALIGN=3DCENTER></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#ff0000" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SCR=
IPT" FACE=3D"Comic Sans MS" LANG=3D"0">by <A HREF=3D"http://www.trainweb.org=
/ttos-pnw/former_officers.htm">Doug Gray</A></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000"=20=
SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SCRIPT" FACE=3D"Comic Sans MS" LANG=3D"0">=20
<BR><P ALIGN=3DLEFT>
<BR></B>Perhaps you have toyed with the outdoor railroad ideas, but dismisse=
d them having heard somewhere that only G Scale can be used outdoors. And, s=
ince many of us have collections of O Gauge trains, the added expense of sta=
rting a new G Gauge collection deters you from outdoor railroading. The solu=
tion? Use your O gauge outdoors! A great advantage is that you can finally h=
ave the long right of ways that you have no room for indoors. Based upon my=20=
decade of experience, it does work, but there are some precautions to observ=
e.First, let us start with the track system. Gargraves, and other manufactur=
ers, make track designed for outdoors, utilizing stainless steel rails and U=
V treated plastic ties. Ordinary sectional indoor track will last about a we=
ek before rust takes over. It will first appear on the rail surfaces, and so=
on the pins will rust and there will be no electrical conductivity. =20
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Ar=
ial" LANG=3D"0">
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-=
LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I was asked a question toda=
y and I can't seem to find the answer. I think I know but I need more=20=
then a gut feel.
<BR>
<BR>Is rust conductive, just a by product, or both? The materials we w=
ere discussing are phosphorus, bronze, iron. Thanks in advance.
<BR>
<BR>Kat
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Ar=
ial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Ar=
ial" LANG=3D"0">
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR></P></P></FONT></HTML>
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Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 12:01:02 -0800
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Hans Shin <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: FTIR Cards
In-Reply-To: <45EC695FE212D311A49D0000D11BAF7C053C6C6F@MBRC02>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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If you're looking for residues, I wouldn't recommend the ones from
Janostech. Those may be useful for analyzing solvents.
Hans Shin
Pacific Testing Laboratories
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Crepeau, Phil
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 10:52 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] FTIR Cards
hi,
two responses from chris murphy in our chemistry lab.
phil
---------------------
Hi Phil,
I haven't heard of these disposable mesh cards. Our typical sources for
infrared accessories are Thermo Nicolet, Thermo Spectra-Tech, Perkin Elmer,
Harrick Scientific or Janos Technology.
<http://www.photonics.com/>
<http://www.thermonicolet.com>
http://www.thermospectra-tech.com
<http://www.harricksci.com>
http://www.perkinelmer.com
Chris Murphy
TRW Chemistry Technology Department
310-813-9355
Phil,
Could this be what he is looking for?
http://www.janostech.com/products/screencell.html
Rockwell Collins
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Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 18:39:56 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Lou Hart <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: board dunked in wave solder
TechNetters, I know there was discussion of this before, many months ago,
but I can't track down the postings in the archives. Please comment.
We have with solder on some of the top side, surrounding some components
(ICs and passives). It was dunked in wave solder. Are boards that have
"submarined" (I think someone used this term in the earlier discussion)
useable if excess solder is removed? Never useable? Sometimes?
I could say it's OK, since submarining shouldn't be as bad as HASL, but
would like some expert comments.
Lou Hart
Compunetix Quality Assurance
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Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 08:18:37 +0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "<Peter George Duncan>" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Rusty
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Hi, Kathy,
Rust is a very poor conductor, as anyone with a rusty car and wiring
trouble can testify. Corrosion on battery terminals can ruin a connection,
and where oxidisation is deliberate, such as in anodising of aluminium,
electrical conductivity is poor to non-existant, depending on the thickness
of the oxide layer.
Peter Duncan
Kathy Kuhlow
<Kathy@BTW-IN To: [log in to unmask]
C.COM> cc: (bcc: DUNCAN Peter/Asst Prin Engr/ST
Sent by: Aero/ST Group)
TechNet Subject: [TN] Rusty
<[log in to unmask]
ORG>
11/30/01
01:55 AM
Please
respond to
"TechNet
E-Mail
Forum."
I was asked a question today and I can't seem to find the answer. I think
I know but I need more then a gut feel.
Is rust conductive, just a by product, or both? The materials we were
discussing are phosphorus, bronze, iron. Thanks in advance.
Kat
(See attached file: TEXT.htm)
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Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 08:29:33 +0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "<Peter George Duncan>" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: board dunked in wave solder
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Some years ago, I was faced with a few flooded boards (conventional
through-hole stuff), and the recovery operation involved removing the
excess solder by reflowing it upside down, removing the components and
putting the now-bare boards through the recently-remembered hydrosqueegee
process to re-level the solder and clear the holes. I shudder slightly at
the mere thought of all those high thermal excursions, but it did return us
useable boards.
Peter Duncan
Lou Hart
<lhart@COMPUN To: [log in to unmask]
ETIX.COM> cc: (bcc: DUNCAN Peter/Asst Prin Engr/ST
Sent by: Aero/ST Group)
TechNet Subject: [TN] board dunked in wave solder
<[log in to unmask]
ORG>
11/30/01
07:39 AM
Please
respond to
"TechNet
E-Mail
Forum."
TechNetters, I know there was discussion of this before, many months ago,
but I can't track down the postings in the archives. Please comment.
We have with solder on some of the top side, surrounding some components
(ICs and passives). It was dunked in wave solder. Are boards that have
"submarined" (I think someone used this term in the earlier discussion)
useable if excess solder is removed? Never useable? Sometimes?
I could say it's OK, since submarining shouldn't be as bad as HASL, but
would like some expert comments.
Lou Hart
Compunetix Quality Assurance
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Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 18:32:12 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: board dunked in wave solder
X-To: "<Peter George Duncan>" <[log in to unmask]>
Shudder slightly indeed Peter. We all wish we could garner such results.
Isn't it amazing how much abuse well designed and processed boards can endure?
MoonMan
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Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 19:41:45 EST
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Stephen R. Gregory" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: board dunked in wave solder
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hi Lou!
I think that this is the one event when it happens, eclipses any other event
in printed circuit assembly manufacturing, that brings forth a flood (no pun
intended) of intense emotions from the observer...shock, horror, terror,
regret, desperation, depression (it's not for the faint hearted). Those
emotions multiply exponentially depending on the assemblies complexity and
value. It does happen though...I think some of my gray hair has come from a
few of those over the years.
But in those times when it came down to having to salvage the mess, I would
say there were no problems. The decision would always be made based on
dollars. Did it make more economic sense to put the extensive labor needed to
clean-up everything, or just start from scratch again...
One thing to do if you're quick enough when it happens, is to try and grab
the board as it comes off the conveyer and "pour" the solder off as quickly
as you can, and in such a way to involve the least number of components, or
the obviously complex ones, PGA's, BGA's, etc...takes for some quick thinking
when you're staring in horror as the event unfolds!
Molten solder on top of the board hasn't ruined the PCB in my experience,
it's just a matter of cleaning-up all the shorts that happen...again, it's a
economics thing. If you want/need to salvage a board that's "sub'ed", I don't
think quality is that much of a concern if it's done by someone who can
handle something like this.
It's happened a time or two with me, and I've bought more than a few lunches
for a few ladies that were magicians with soldering irons and solder
extractors...they are worth their weight in gold.
-Steve Gregory-
> TechNetters, I know there was discussion of this before, many months ago,
> but I can't track down the postings in the archives. Please comment.
>
> We have with solder on some of the top side, surrounding some components
> (ICs and passives). It was dunked in wave solder. Are boards that have
> "submarined" (I think someone used this term in the earlier discussion)
> useable if excess solder is removed? Never useable? Sometimes?
>
> I could say it's OK, since submarining shouldn't be as bad as HASL, but
> would like some expert comments.
>
> Lou Hart
> Compunetix Quality Assurance
>
--part1_6b.1e7c58d0.29382fc9_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>Hi Lou!<BR>
<BR>
I think that this is the one event when it happens, eclipses any other event in printed circuit assembly manufacturing, that brings forth a flood (no pun intended) of intense emotions from the observer...shock, horror, terror, regret, desperation, depression (it's not for the faint hearted). Those emotions multiply exponentially depending on the assemblies complexity and value. It does happen though...I think some of my gray hair has come from a few of those over the years.<BR>
<BR>
But in those times when it came down to having to salvage the mess, I would say there were no problems. The decision would always be made based on dollars. Did it make more economic sense to put the extensive labor needed to clean-up everything, or just start from scratch again...<BR>
<BR>
One thing to do if you're quick enough when it happens, is to try and grab the board as it comes off the conveyer and "pour" the solder off as quickly as you can, and in such a way to involve the least number of components, or the obviously complex ones, PGA's, BGA's, etc...takes for some quick thinking when you're staring in horror as the event unfolds!<BR>
<BR>
Molten solder on top of the board hasn't ruined the PCB in my experience, it's just a matter of cleaning-up all the shorts that happen...again, it's a economics thing. If you want/need to salvage a board that's "sub'ed", I don't think quality is that much of a concern if it's done by someone who can handle something like this.<BR>
<BR>
It's happened a time or two with me, and I've bought more than a few lunches for a few ladies that were magicians with soldering irons and solder extractors...they are worth their weight in gold.<BR>
<BR>
-Steve Gregory-<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">TechNetters, I know there was discussion of this before, many months ago,<BR>
but I can't track down the postings in the archives. Please comment.<BR>
<BR>
We have with solder on some of the top side, surrounding some components<BR>
(ICs and passives). It was dunked in wave solder. Are boards that have<BR>
"submarined" (I think someone used this term in the earlier discussion)<BR>
useable if excess solder is removed? Never useable? Sometimes?<BR>
<BR>
I could say it's OK, since submarining shouldn't be as bad as HASL, but<BR>
would like some expert comments.<BR>
<BR>
Lou Hart<BR>
Compunetix Quality Assurance<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 17:05:42 -0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Crepeau, Phil" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: board dunked in wave solder
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hi,
i don't know. i think that getting boards-bonded-to-core assemblies back from the field when the boards have fallen off the core eclipses a board-in-the-solder-pot problem any day for angst. not that this ever happened to me you understand.
phil
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
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<META content="MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=651560101-30112001><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>hi,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=651560101-30112001><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=651560101-30112001><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>i
don't know. i think that getting boards-bonded-to-core
assemblies back from the field when the boards have fallen off the
core eclipses a board-in-the-solder-pot problem any day for angst. not
that this ever happened to me you understand.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=651560101-30112001><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=651560101-30112001><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>phil</FONT></SPAN><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT
size=2></DIV></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 23:33:29 EST
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "<Rudy Sedlak>" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Organic Silver PCB's
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Dave:
Some of the immersion Silver finishes have a co-deposited organic
anti-tarnish in them.
Rudy Sedlak
RD Chemical Company
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Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 21:53:57 -0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Peter Lee <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Pick & place equipment process control
In-Reply-To: <002301c17910$9323a930$0c140a0a@hshin>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hello,
I have asked this question before but did not receive many replies.
Does anyone have any success or suggestion on measuring P&P machine
parameters in line? Such as vacuum pressures, vision alignment error and
placement compensation, placement pressure, drive speed and movement.
Obviously I am setup SPC for my P&P process.
P&P machines that we have in our company do not seem to be "opened"
systems. The only parameters I can measure are indirect - pickup error%,
reject rate, and I went as far as using test vehicles to verify
placement accuracy with AOI. These are however, not direct machine
parameters and do not give me a clear picture of the major moving parts
on the machine.
What other variations within a chip shooting process can one measure and
control?
Rgds,
Peter
_________________________________________________________
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Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 15:52:05 +0530
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Anil Kher <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Micro Interconnexion Pvt. Ltd
Subject: Re: (VIRUS ALERT!!!) [TN] O. MATERIALS. TO : VALUED ASSOCIATES.
X-To: "Stephen R. Gregory" <[log in to unmask]>
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Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_005A_01C179B6.F5E7C320"
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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charset="UTF-8"
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Dear All
I was out of office for the last ten days. I regret the inconvenience =
this worm has caused to you.
I am surprised my virus shield did not work nor did the on line sacn on =
the day following
Sorry
Anil Kher
------=_NextPart_000_005A_01C179B6.F5E7C320
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial =
color=3D#000000 size=3D2=20
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">Dear All</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial =
color=3D#000000 size=3D2=20
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial =
color=3D#000000 size=3D2=20
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">I was out of office for the last ten days. I regret =
the=20
inconvenience this worm has caused to you.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial =
color=3D#000000 size=3D2=20
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial =
color=3D#000000 size=3D2=20
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">I am surprised my virus shield did not work nor did =
the on=20
line sacn on the day following</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial =
color=3D#000000 size=3D2=20
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial =
color=3D#000000 size=3D2=20
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">Sorry</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial =
color=3D#000000 size=3D2=20
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">Anil Kher</DIV></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 06:53:12 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Graham Collins <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: board dunked in wave solder
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Hi Lou, Steve
I agree with Steve - if it makes sense $$$ or schedule / parts availability=
- salvage it. If it's a cheapo then the decision is obvious.
My "best" submarine experience: first month on the new job. Been in =
tweaking the wave machine all morning, and the boss wanders in looking for =
me. While chatting he watches a board going over the wave... SWOOSH. =
=20
Actually - if I'd been thinking fast I would have parlayed that into =
retrofitting the chain with L fingers (it's got V on it). I suspect I had =
not quite fitted the board into the V... but as Steve says - the shock =
and horror...
regards
Graham Collins
Process Engineer,=20
Northrop Grumman
Atlantic Facility of Litton Systems Canada
(902) 873-2000 ext 6215
>>> [log in to unmask] 11/29/01 08:41PM >>>
Hi Lou!
I think that this is the one event when it happens, eclipses any other =
event
in printed circuit assembly manufacturing, that brings forth a flood (no =
pun
intended) of intense emotions from the observer...shock, horror, terror,
regret, desperation, depression (it's not for the faint hearted). Those
emotions multiply exponentially depending on the assemblies complexity and
value. It does happen though...I think some of my gray hair has come from =
a
few of those over the years.
But in those times when it came down to having to salvage the mess, I =
would
say there were no problems. The decision would always be made based on
dollars. Did it make more economic sense to put the extensive labor needed =
to
clean-up everything, or just start from scratch again...
One thing to do if you're quick enough when it happens, is to try and grab
the board as it comes off the conveyer and "pour" the solder off as =
quickly
as you can, and in such a way to involve the least number of components, =
or
the obviously complex ones, PGA's, BGA's, etc...takes for some quick =
thinking
when you're staring in horror as the event unfolds!
Molten solder on top of the board hasn't ruined the PCB in my experience,
it's just a matter of cleaning-up all the shorts that happen...again, it's =
a
economics thing. If you want/need to salvage a board that's "sub'ed", I =
don't
think quality is that much of a concern if it's done by someone who can
handle something like this.
It's happened a time or two with me, and I've bought more than a few =
lunches
for a few ladies that were magicians with soldering irons and solder
extractors...they are worth their weight in gold.
-Steve Gregory-
> TechNetters, I know there was discussion of this before, many months =
ago,
> but I can't track down the postings in the archives. Please comment.
>
> We have with solder on some of the top side, surrounding some components
> (ICs and passives). It was dunked in wave solder. Are boards that have
> "submarined" (I think someone used this term in the earlier discussion)
> useable if excess solder is removed? Never useable? Sometimes?
>
> I could say it's OK, since submarining shouldn't be as bad as HASL, but
> would like some expert comments.
>
> Lou Hart
> Compunetix Quality Assurance
>
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Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 07:07:46 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Wave Solder Profiling
X-To: Barry Gallegos <[log in to unmask]>
Got distracted by work, if you can believe that, and didn't finish.
You know all this stuff but if your conveyor is traveling at 4'/minute, that
means 1'/15 seconds (great math, eh?). If you use your Lev Chek glass one
inch grid plate and you verify your contact area is parallel and is about
1.5" across, then you can determine your contact time. For more "normal"
boards, depending on your matrix indicators, your contact time should be
about 1.5 - 3 seconds - depending on conveyor speed.
For massive boards, thermally speeking, the contact time may be much longer
as the conveyor speed may be as slow as 1'/minute or less. Scary stuff these
boards and conditions.
Of course, with all this stuff, I'm using through hole technology as the
baseline for the settings. Mixed technoloty will be the same though SMT ohly
types can be more "normally" profiled.
Once sub-process and process "calibration" is done manually, profilometers
may be used as well. Of course, many "trust" the machine's computer if so
equipped. No matter, I still do manual "calibrations" on a regular basis for
computer controlled machines and I do this at the beginning of each new
product lot on less automated machines - all a function of my trusty matrix
having all the "numbers"/paramaters for each board type required. My matrix
then is converted to SPC information as process control charts based on
process effects as acceptable quality solder joints.
I'm done and distracted by work again. Just killing a little time on a very
old subject I don't get to visit that much anymore. What's the company that
makes the Lev Check glass plate again?
MoonMan
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Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 08:42:11 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Sauer, Steven T." <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Wave Solder Profiling
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Mornin' Earl,
That would be Hexacon Electric out of NJ.
Steve
-----Original Message-----
What's the company that
makes the Lev Check glass plate again?
MoonMan
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Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 07:47:35 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Pelchat, Janice" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Conformal Coat House
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Does anyone have any recommendations they can make about coating houses in
the New England area?
You can contact me offline if you prefer.
Jan Pelchat
[log in to unmask]
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Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 09:01:31 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Steve Kelly <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Flexible PC Board
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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If you need some design help on materials you can call me.
Steve Kelly
PFC Flexible Circuits Ltd.
(416) 750-8433
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Scott R. Madans
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 8:48 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Flexible PC Board
Howdy All,
I am new to this list and I thank the folks at 3M's
Microflex division for pointing me here. Y'all can blame
them later after reading this lengthily post...
The acceptance of my lousy prototype was excellent, so I was
looking at ideas for a more robust and fine-tuned design
using a flexible circuit.
I need a flexible PC board operating at 12v DC. Size is
about 1/2" x 6" or 8". The mounting is static, but the
flexible shape is required because of the variety of
mountings. Also, the outdoor environment will be greasy,
dusty, wet, cold (-50F), sunny (UV) and hot (120F). So, it
needs to be durable. There will be no direct abrasives.
The board and protection should be no more than about
2/10ths thick.
Is there something like that out there? You've probably
seen that "soft-touch" switch rubber used on keypads. A
slightly firmer version of that with copper cladding (or
something to etch) would be about perfect, as long as it's
tough stuff.
Thanks in advance and I appreciate your guidance.
- Scott
(775) 849-2030
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Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 13:52:11 -0000
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Mike Fenner <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Rusty
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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The term rust may be used slightly differently UK/US, so I dredge up from
memory what I was taught sometime ago in last century England:
Strictly only iron can rust, but it is more than just iron oxide. It is a
dynamic mixture of iron oxides and water which perpetuates itself as long as
there is a supply of oxygen in damp conditions.
Non ferrous metals don't rust therefore but they may tarnish. Phosphorus is
not a metal, so it can neither rust nor tarnish to oxide, it actually burns
quite vigorously.
As mentioned below generally oxides do not conduct, the only one I can think
of off hand that does is silver. Some oxides in conjunction with the base
metal can make rectifiers so conduct in one direction only. In iron oxide
terms old fashioned cast iron drainpipes used to accidentally act as simple
radio receivers and re-transmitters due to this rectification phenomenon.
Confession time: when I get asked this sort of "I ought to/used to know this
basic sort of stuff" question, or need to know enough to ask a harder one
myself, I quite often visit www.howstuffworks.com
You can ask almost anything you like and it usually comes back quickly with
the answer you were thinking of. More importantly it assumes almost no prior
knowledge so you can understand it.
Best regards
Mike Fenner
Applications Engineer, European Operations
Indium Corporation
T: + 44 1908 580 400
M: + 44 7810 526 317
F: + 44 1908 580 411
E: [log in to unmask]
W: www.indium.com
Leadfree: http://Pb-Free.com
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of <Peter George Duncan>
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 12:19 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Rusty
Hi, Kathy,
Rust is a very poor conductor, as anyone with a rusty car and wiring
trouble can testify. Corrosion on battery terminals can ruin a connection,
and where oxidisation is deliberate, such as in anodising of aluminium,
electrical conductivity is poor to non-existant, depending on the thickness
of the oxide layer.
Peter Duncan
Kathy Kuhlow
<Kathy@BTW-IN To: [log in to unmask]
C.COM> cc: (bcc: DUNCAN Peter/Asst
Prin Engr/ST
Sent by: Aero/ST Group)
TechNet Subject: [TN] Rusty
<[log in to unmask]
ORG>
11/30/01
01:55 AM
Please
respond to
"TechNet
E-Mail
Forum."
I was asked a question today and I can't seem to find the answer. I think
I know but I need more then a gut feel.
Is rust conductive, just a by product, or both? The materials we were
discussing are phosphorus, bronze, iron. Thanks in advance.
Kat
(See attached file: TEXT.htm)
[This e-mail is confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the
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Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 08:22:00 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Kathy Kuhlow <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: board dunked in wave solder
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We rework them but very carefully. With SOIC, QFP, etc solder can cause a =
lot of solder shorting underneath that isn't visible. Either xray to =
confirm all solder removeal underneath or remove to confirm. =20
Kathy
--=_C29FF407.8EEF82D0
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<DIV>We rework them but very carefully. With SOIC, QFP, etc solder can
cause a lot of solder shorting underneath that isn't visible. Either xray
to confirm all solder removeal underneath or remove to confirm. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Kathy</DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 09:47:03 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Anita Sargent <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Anita Sargent/Endicott/IBM is out of the office.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
I will be out of the office starting November 30, 2001 and will not return
until December 3, 2001.
I will respond to your message when I return.
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Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 08:52:20 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Wave Solder Profiling
X-To: Steve Sauer <[log in to unmask]>
Steve,
Can't thank you enough. Probably never will use or see one again but good to
know as I always forget or loose that name. My other problem with thest
plates is my inept handling of them. I must clamp them too hard in the
fingers or they just break because of thermal shock. Tried preheating them
but still kept breaking them when they hit the wave. Any suggestions beside
buying several as spares?
Earl
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Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 08:56:04 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Rusty
X-To: mike Fenner <[log in to unmask]>
Mike,
That was interesting stuff as is the site you indicated. Very interesting
and useful.
One thing: Phosphorous burns - ok - so it oxidizes, right? Webster, or some
such dictionary, defines oxidation as burning. Not too interesting but
factual, eh?
Earl
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Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 09:52:02 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
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From: Scott Westheimer <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Fw: Differential impedance
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From: Scott Westheimer=20
To: Technet=20
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 9:06 AM
Subject: Differential impedance
I have a question regarding differential signal pairs and differential =
impedance that I hope someone can help me with. We are designing a 14 =
layer board and the finished thickness needs to .062" and we require 100 =
ohms. Some of the internal layers we have split planes. Would these be =
considered strip line or microstrips?
Thanks=20
Scott
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" =
[log in to unmask]>Scott=20
Westheimer</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"=20
[log in to unmask]>Technet</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Friday, November 30, 2001 9:06 AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Differential impedance</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have a question regarding =
differential signal=20
pairs and differential impedance that I hope someone can help me with. =
We are=20
designing a 14 layer board and the finished thickness needs to .062" and =
we=20
require 100 ohms. Some of the internal layers we have split planes. =
Would these=20
be considered strip line or microstrips?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Scott</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 09:05:59 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
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From: Gary McCauley <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Rusty
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Explosion, burning, oxidation. It's a
matter of time. ;-)
gary mccauley
PC Boards, Inc.
-----Original Message-----
From: Earl Moon [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 8:56 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Rusty
Mike,
That was interesting stuff as is the site you indicated. Very interesting
and useful.
One thing: Phosphorous burns - ok - so it oxidizes, right? Webster, or some
such dictionary, defines oxidation as burning. Not too interesting but
factual, eh?
Earl
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Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 09:06:40 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Fw: Differential impedance
X-To: Scott Wesheimer <[log in to unmask]>
I know you remember the classic definition of microstrip as a function of
surface traces referenced only to one internal plane - either exposed to air
or buried by solder mask. Likewise, stripline is a function of traces
between two reference planes either centered or offset. Don't know what
difference continuous or split planes make to these definitions but for
possible functionality and performance factors.
MoonMan
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Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 10:15:56 EST
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
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From: Jon Moore <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: board dunked in wave solder
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I have reworked many like this, and the comments already offered regarding
cost analysis are important to consider. Also verify that the components
involved can take the heat cycle of the rework, or else replace them.
Kathy's comment about x-ray for SOIC's etc. was right on the mark. Little
slivers of solder bridging under those parts can be nearly impossible to see.
Jon Moore
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Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 09:10:00 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Rusty
X-To: Gary McCauley <[log in to unmask]>
Yes, but not to get carried away, while attempting to stay within the realm
of this forum, isn't an explosion nothing more than rapid burning.
Therefore, oxidation must be really fast burning when an explosion is effected.
MoonMan
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Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 15:10:13 +0000
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Eric Christison <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: STMicroelectronics
Subject: Re: Rusty
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Two things to add to this Friday afternoon discussion.
I was taught in my chemistry class the following mnemonics:
LEO - Loss of Electrons = Oxidation
GER - Gain of Electrons = Reduction
So oxidation may result in burning or even an explosion. But not everything that oxidises
burns.
The difference between burning and exploding is the rate at which the chemical reaction
proceeds. My unreliable memory reminds me that in burning the reaction passes from molecule to
molecule while in an explosion the reaction proceeds through the medium at the speed of sound.
Have a nice weekend,
[log in to unmask] wrote:
> Yes, but not to get carried away, while attempting to stay within the realm
> of this forum, isn't an explosion nothing more than rapid burning.
> Therefore, oxidation must be really fast burning when an explosion is effected.
>
> MoonMan
>
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--
Eric Christison
Mechanical Engineer
STMicroelectronics
33 Pinkhill
Edinburgh
EH12 7BF
Tel: (0)131 336 6165
Fax: (0)131 336 6001
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Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 07:53:30 -0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Carl VanWormer <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Fw: Differential impedance
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There is a large body of free information on the UltraCAD website:
http://www.ultracad.com/homepage.htm
that deals with trace impedance and other layout issues. They also have
several free calculator programs, including one to verify or aid impedance -
vs. - geometry tradeoffs. Try it . . . you'll like it!
Carl Van Wormer
Cipher Systems
1815 NW 169th Place, Suite 5010
Beaverton, OR 97006
Phone (503)-617-7447 Fax (503)-617-6550
-----Original Message-----
From: Earl Moon [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 7:07 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Fw: Differential impedance
I know you remember the classic definition of microstrip as a function of
surface traces referenced only to one internal plane - either exposed to air
or buried by solder mask. Likewise, stripline is a function of traces
between two reference planes either centered or offset. Don't know what
difference continuous or split planes make to these definitions but for
possible functionality and performance factors.
MoonMan
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Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 08:24:02 -0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Denis Lefebvre <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Fw: Differential impedance
In-Reply-To: <006301c179ae$92055d20$7801a8c0@GULTECHGM>
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Micro strip is an external transmission line referenced to an internal
plane/dielectric & air.
Stripline in an internal transmission line referenced between two planes
and dielectric.
-Denis
At 09:52 AM 11/30/2001 -0500, you wrote:
>
>From: <mailto:[log in to unmask]>Scott Westheimer
>To: <mailto:[log in to unmask]>Technet
>Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 9:06 AM
>Subject: Differential impedance
>
>I have a question regarding differential signal pairs and differential
>impedance that I hope someone can help me with. We are designing a 14
>layer board and the finished thickness needs to .062" and we require 100
>ohms. Some of the internal layers we have split planes. Would these be
>considered strip line or microstrips?
>
>Thanks
>
>Scott
--=====================_10662161==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
<html>
Micro strip is an external transmission line referenced to an internal
plane/dielectric & air.<br>
Stripline in an internal transmission line referenced between two planes
and dielectric.<br>
-Denis<br>
At 09:52 AM 11/30/2001 -0500, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite> <br>
<b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">Scott
Westheimer</a> <br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">Technet</a> <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 30, 2001 9:06 AM<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Differential impedance<br><br>
<font face="arial" size=2>I have a question regarding differential signal
pairs and differential impedance that I hope someone can help me with. We
are designing a 14 layer board and the finished thickness needs to
.062" and we require 100 ohms. Some of the internal layers we have
split planes. Would these be considered strip line or
microstrips?</font><br>
<br>
<font face="arial" size=2>Thanks </font><br>
<br>
<font face="arial" size=2>Scott</font></blockquote></html>
--=====================_10662161==_.ALT--
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Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 10:36:57 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Kathy Kuhlow <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Thanks you
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This forum is the best out there. Thanks to all who responded to the =
rusty question. =20
Kathy=20
--=_451873A3.4F2E431E
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<DIV>This forum is the best out there. Thanks to all who responded to the
rusty question. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Kathy </DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 10:39:09 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Fw: Differential impedance
X-To: Denis Lefebvre <[log in to unmask]>
Denis,
Your definition certainly is simpler than mine. I'll keep yours.
Did I get you all you needed in addition to the check list? Let me know off
line what I owe you.
Concerning the 14 layer .062 MLB, I must be living in another world. Hell, I
was just getting over 10 layer types that thick notwithstanding impedance.
This 14 layer thing went right over my head.
I know we all are using single ply constructions but isn't this pushing it
just a bit. I mean you'd have to use 3 mil stuff, whatever the core and preg
would be, to get this done regardless of the split plane and trace width
considerations.
Someone please tell me how this board would be made, and made to work.
MoonMan
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Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 17:39:21 +0000
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Martyn Gaudion <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Fw: Differential impedance
In-Reply-To: <006301c179ae$92055d20$7801a8c0@GULTECHGM>
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Scott,
You may also like to look at the application notes
on the Polar site:
www.polarinstruments.com/support/cits/cits_index.html
Kind regards
Martyn Gaudion
Polar Instruments
T: + 44 1481 253081
F: + 44 1481 252476
M: +44 7710 522748
E: [log in to unmask]
www.polarinstruments.com
At 09:52 30/11/01 -0500, you wrote:
>
>From: <mailto:[log in to unmask]>Scott Westheimer
>To: <mailto:[log in to unmask]>Technet
>Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 9:06 AM
>Subject: Differential impedance
>
>I have a question regarding differential signal pairs and differential
>impedance that I hope someone can help me with. We are designing a 14
>layer board and the finished thickness needs to .062" and we require 100
>ohms. Some of the internal layers we have split planes. Would these be
>considered strip line or microstrips?
>
>Thanks
>
>Scott
--=====================_6843055==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
<html>
Scott,<br>
<br>
You may also like to look at the application notes<br>
on the Polar site:<br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.polarinstruments.com/support/cits/cits_index.html" eudora="autourl">www.polarinstruments.com/support/cits/cits_index.</a><a href="http://www.polarinstruments.com/support/cits/cits_index.html" eudora="autourl">html<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</a>Kind regards<br>
Martyn Gaudion <br>
Polar Instruments<br>
<br>
T: + 44 1481 253081<br>
F: + 44 1481 252476<br>
M: +44 7710 522748<br>
E: [log in to unmask]<br>
<a href="http://www.polarinstruments.com/" eudora="autourl">www.polarinstruments.com</a>
<br>
<br>
<br>
At 09:52 30/11/01 -0500, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite cite> <br>
<b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">Scott Westheimer</a> <br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">Technet</a> <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 30, 2001 9:06 AM<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Differential impedance<br>
<br>
<font face="arial" size=2>I have a question regarding differential signal pairs and differential impedance that I hope someone can help me with. We are designing a 14 layer board and the finished thickness needs to .062" and we require 100 ohms. Some of the internal layers we have split planes. Would these be considered strip line or microstrips?</font><br>
<br>
<font face="arial" size=2>Thanks </font><br>
<br>
<font face="arial" size=2>Scott</font></blockquote></html>
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Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 11:30:13 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Fw: Differential impedance
Just one more thing concerning split planes. Has 274x been fixed to handle
them or do we have to continue using 274d to view them without the mush? I
know the answer must be using ODB++ instead of Gerber output, but some
aren't there yet.
MoonMan
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Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 12:46:28 -0600
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Stephen S. Schiera" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Color additives for conformal coat
X-To: Graham Naisbitt <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Graham,
My understanding is that the customer has had problems in the past with a
supplier coating connector pins and is looking for a means to poke-a-yoke
this step for this new board. It does not have to be opaque per say, since
their intent is to look for coverage and excess on the pins.
Thanks for the information.
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: Graham Naisbitt [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 12:20 PM
To: [log in to unmask]; [log in to unmask]
Subject: RE: [TN] Color additives for conformal coat
Steve
Adding anything to the coating after approvals testing will negate its
qualification / approval status.
Why does the customer want a color? Does he want it to be opaque?
We have experimented with pigments and some of them work - what color would
you like? However, they do cause a major problem for the manufacturer,
because that color does not go easily away for subsequent batches.
More particularly, adding pigments can disturb the dielectrical and other
protective characteristics that might be desirable. Check this before you
jump.
If we are talking opaque - then we have to add fillers. These greatly
influence the moisture protection that you DO want from the coating because
they cause an easier path for moist air / water to move through the film.
This is not good and is why the US military called for the use of UV
tracers.
If the customer is trying to hide something - forget it! We can remove any
coating with enough time, patience and enthusiasm!
Hope this helps.
Regards, Graham Naisbitt
[log in to unmask]
www.concoat.co.uk <http://www.concoat.co.uk>
For instant access to Product Data Sheets register on the Tech-Shot area of
http:// www.concoat.co.uk <http://www.concoat.co.uk>
Concoat Limited
Alasan House, Albany Park
CAMBERLEY GU16 7PH UK
Phone: +44 (0)1276 691100
Fax: +44 (0)1276 691227
Mobile: +44 (0)79 6858 2121
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Stephen S. Schiera
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 03:29
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Color additives for conformal coat
I have a current request from a customer for a conformal coat that has a
visible coloring agent such as "red or blue". We currently use an acrylic
coating with a UV trace and UL approval. Does anyone use or know of visible
color traces for coatings?
Thanks in advance
Steve
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Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 13:34:37 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Lefebvre, Scott" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: LLP Leadless LeadFrame Package
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I have been asked if engineering could use this package on their new
designs. I've used LCC before and had no real problems but they were not
blind connections like this package.
I have concerns that the center pad on the bottom of the component would be
susceptible to shorting to the adjacent outer pads. Do any of you have
other concerns that you could share with me, it would be greatly
appreciated.
Scott Lefebvre
> F (530)265-1041
> 8 (530)265-1012
> * [log in to unmask]
>
>
>
>
>
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Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 19:51:35 -0000
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Graham Naisbitt <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Color additives for conformal coat
X-To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Steve
Then my best recommendation is to use the black-light in a suitable
inspection chamber. This will show exactly where the coating is and isn't.
We have special units for this, but if you want details, please let me know
off-line.
Regards, Graham Naisbitt
[log in to unmask]
www.concoat.co.uk <http://www.concoat.co.uk>
For instant access to Product Data Sheets register on the Tech-Shot area of
http:// www.concoat.co.uk <http://www.concoat.co.uk>
Concoat Limited
Alasan House, Albany Park
CAMBERLEY GU16 7PH UK
Phone: +44 (0)1276 691100
Fax: +44 (0)1276 691227
Mobile: +44 (0)79 6858 2121
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Stephen S. Schiera
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 06:46
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Color additives for conformal coat
Graham,
My understanding is that the customer has had problems in the past with a
supplier coating connector pins and is looking for a means to poke-a-yoke
this step for this new board. It does not have to be opaque per say, since
their intent is to look for coverage and excess on the pins.
Thanks for the information.
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: Graham Naisbitt [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 12:20 PM
To: [log in to unmask]; [log in to unmask]
Subject: RE: [TN] Color additives for conformal coat
Steve
Adding anything to the coating after approvals testing will negate its
qualification / approval status.
Why does the customer want a color? Does he want it to be opaque?
We have experimented with pigments and some of them work - what color would
you like? However, they do cause a major problem for the manufacturer,
because that color does not go easily away for subsequent batches.
More particularly, adding pigments can disturb the dielectrical and other
protective characteristics that might be desirable. Check this before you
jump.
If we are talking opaque - then we have to add fillers. These greatly
influence the moisture protection that you DO want from the coating because
they cause an easier path for moist air / water to move through the film.
This is not good and is why the US military called for the use of UV
tracers.
If the customer is trying to hide something - forget it! We can remove any
coating with enough time, patience and enthusiasm!
Hope this helps.
Regards, Graham Naisbitt
[log in to unmask]
www.concoat.co.uk <http://www.concoat.co.uk>
For instant access to Product Data Sheets register on the Tech-Shot area of
http:// www.concoat.co.uk <http://www.concoat.co.uk>
Concoat Limited
Alasan House, Albany Park
CAMBERLEY GU16 7PH UK
Phone: +44 (0)1276 691100
Fax: +44 (0)1276 691227
Mobile: +44 (0)79 6858 2121
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Stephen S. Schiera
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 03:29
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Color additives for conformal coat
I have a current request from a customer for a conformal coat that has a
visible coloring agent such as "red or blue". We currently use an acrylic
coating with a UV trace and UL approval. Does anyone use or know of visible
color traces for coatings?
Thanks in advance
Steve
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
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Please visit IPC web site (http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm) for additional
information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-509-9700
ext.5315
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----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 15:07:42 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Kasprzak, Bill (sys) USX" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Red plaque on Silver plated wire?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Anybody out there ever hear about having to control red plaque on silver
plated wire?
This showed up on a spec for a job we're contemplating.
Any and all ('cept wisecracks) responses appreciated. Thanks.
Bill Kasprzak
Moog Inc., Electronic Assembly Engineering
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Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 15:45:11 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Hinners Hans M Civ WRALC/LUGE <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Color additives for conformal coat
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Steve,
I have to second Graham's Black Light suggestion. We had the same
problem/learning curve in a manual coating operation I ran. The Coaters
didn't realize coating on the pins/connectors would be a problem. Sometimes
they were cleaning it best they could but leaving a residue. We'd plug the
assembly in for testing and it would fail. We only had to show them the
assembly under blacklight once to solve the problem.
Hans
Integrity First - Service Before Self - Excellence in All We Do
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hans M. Hinners
Electronics Engineer
Warner Robins - Air Logistics Center (WR-ALC/LUGE)
Special Operations Forces System Program Office (SOF - SPO)
Gunship Team
226 Cochran Street
Robins AFB GA 31098-1622
mailto:[log in to unmask]
Com: (478) 926 - 5224
Fax: (478) 926 - 4911
DSN Prefix: 468
-----Original Message-----
From: Graham Naisbitt [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 2:52 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Color additives for conformal coat
Steve
Then my best recommendation is to use the black-light in a suitable
inspection chamber. This will show exactly where the coating is and isn't.
We have special units for this, but if you want details, please let me know
off-line.
Regards, Graham Naisbitt
[log in to unmask]
www.concoat.co.uk <http://www.concoat.co.uk>
For instant access to Product Data Sheets register on the Tech-Shot area of
http:// www.concoat.co.uk <http://www.concoat.co.uk>
Concoat Limited
Alasan House, Albany Park
CAMBERLEY GU16 7PH UK
Phone: +44 (0)1276 691100
Fax: +44 (0)1276 691227
Mobile: +44 (0)79 6858 2121
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Stephen S. Schiera
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 06:46
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Color additives for conformal coat
Graham,
My understanding is that the customer has had problems in the past with a
supplier coating connector pins and is looking for a means to poke-a-yoke
this step for this new board. It does not have to be opaque per say, since
their intent is to look for coverage and excess on the pins.
Thanks for the information.
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: Graham Naisbitt [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 12:20 PM
To: [log in to unmask]; [log in to unmask]
Subject: RE: [TN] Color additives for conformal coat
Steve
Adding anything to the coating after approvals testing will negate its
qualification / approval status.
Why does the customer want a color? Does he want it to be opaque?
We have experimented with pigments and some of them work - what color would
you like? However, they do cause a major problem for the manufacturer,
because that color does not go easily away for subsequent batches.
More particularly, adding pigments can disturb the dielectrical and other
protective characteristics that might be desirable. Check this before you
jump.
If we are talking opaque - then we have to add fillers. These greatly
influence the moisture protection that you DO want from the coating because
they cause an easier path for moist air / water to move through the film.
This is not good and is why the US military called for the use of UV
tracers.
If the customer is trying to hide something - forget it! We can remove any
coating with enough time, patience and enthusiasm!
Hope this helps.
Regards, Graham Naisbitt
[log in to unmask]
www.concoat.co.uk <http://www.concoat.co.uk>
For instant access to Product Data Sheets register on the Tech-Shot area of
http:// www.concoat.co.uk <http://www.concoat.co.uk>
Concoat Limited
Alasan House, Albany Park
CAMBERLEY GU16 7PH UK
Phone: +44 (0)1276 691100
Fax: +44 (0)1276 691227
Mobile: +44 (0)79 6858 2121
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Stephen S. Schiera
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 03:29
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Color additives for conformal coat
I have a current request from a customer for a conformal coat that has a
visible coloring agent such as "red or blue". We currently use an acrylic
coating with a UV trace and UL approval. Does anyone use or know of visible
color traces for coatings?
Thanks in advance
Steve
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Please visit IPC web site (http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm) for additional
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---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 15:52:49 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Jeff Seeger <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Applied CAD Knowledge Inc
Subject: IPCDC Boston mtg 11-Dec, Current Carrying update
X-To: [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask],
[log in to unmask]
MIME-Version: 1.0
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,
A Current Topic
The Greater Boston Chapter of the IPC Designer's Council will
hold its next meeting on Tuesday, December 11th at the Four
Points Hotel on Totten Pond Rd in Waltham MA at 6pm.
Topic and Speaker:
Michael Jouppi of Coretec, Chairman of the IPC 1-10b Task Group
will present the latest developments in said groups efforts to
update the time honored and widely referenced current carrying
conductor charts. This long needed revamp will shed new light
on everyone's favorite look-up. Most designers have found the
age old charts lacking for current (sorry!) packaging trends.
With today's densities and new and fine geometries (fine lines,
micro or blind vias, embedded passives) new understanding must
be brought to the problems of power handling, including effects
of transients and planes. Tools will be provided.
Agenda:
Please note there is a $15 meeting fee for members, $20 for
non-members. Pizza/soft drinks will be served.
6:00 Arrivals and Pizza
6:45 Chapter Business
7:00 Michael Jouppi, Coretec
Location/Directions:
The Four Points Hotel (fka the Wyndham) in Waltham is located
at exit 27A off route 95/128, proceed east on Totten Pond Rd
and the hotel is on the right.
RSVP's requested:
Please RSVP by sending an email to [log in to unmask] with
the subject "RSVP IPC/DC" or phone Judy Horn at 781 942 7471
by Friday 5pm, Dec 7th. Please treat an RSVP as a commitment
to attend as the food order is based on this.
President's Note:
I'm very glad to have Mr Jouppi available for a presentation,
his background as a Thermal Engineer in several aerospace firms
allows him great insight into the problems of current handling.
His works to date on the Current Carrying Charts update have
made great progress and we can look forward to very insightful
perspective on what may become next year's widely distributed
new standard.
As this meeting falls the day after the normal Steering date
I'd like to ask Steering Committee, and any willing member, to
stay a few minutes after for chapter business.
Mission:
PCB Design is not called "do" for a reason. Done properly,the
design process is a creative problem solving discipline. To
address the packaging needs of electronics for today and to-
morrow, the physical designer needs an avenue to get exposed
and familiar with many different techniques and technologies.
The Greater Boston Chapter of the IPC Designer's Council is
committed to presenting stake holders from every aspect of the
packaging realm. Our hope is to help you gain insight and un-
derstanding of the many possibilities in solving core problems.
Your attendance, help and participation are most welcome.
Thanks and regards,
--
Jeff Seeger Applied CAD Knowledge Inc
Chief Technical Officer Tyngsboro, MA 01879
jseeger "at" appliedcad "dot" com 978 649 9800
President, Greater Boston Chapter, IPC Designer's Council
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=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 16:13:35 EST
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Brad Saunders <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: LLP Leadless LeadFrame Package
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="part1_14e.4e610f8.2939507f_boundary"
--part1_14e.4e610f8.2939507f_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
From the design perspective, I don't agree with the supplier recommended data
sheets regarding footprint criteria. As you point out the separation between
large land area and individual I/O lands is very small (ie .002-.005) I
beefed mine up to something like .010. I don't like the solder stencil
pattern either; they would have the paste offset onto the mask by .010-.025.
I didn't do that. The LLP doesn't require special surface finish or exclude
any as some would indicate. First pass success is needed due to quite
challenging to rework. We built quite a few parts to shorts adding the LLP
by hand, never do that it was ugly.
Those are the areas of "gotcha" concerns; every component has their own
gotcha's. I like the LLP package, used as intended it is very nice.
Especially if it is replacing odd form parts.
Brad
--part1_14e.4e610f8.2939507f_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>From the design perspective, I don't agree with the supplier recommended data sheets regarding footprint criteria. As you point out the separation between large land area and individual I/O lands is very small (ie .002-.005) I beefed mine up to something like .010. I don't like the solder stencil pattern either; they would have the paste offset onto the mask by .010-.025. I didn't do that. The LLP doesn't require special surface finish or exclude any as some would indicate. First pass success is needed due to quite challenging to rework. We built quite a few parts to shorts adding the LLP by hand, never do that it was ugly.
<BR>
<BR>Those are the areas of "gotcha" concerns; every component has their own gotcha's. I like the LLP package, used as intended it is very nice. Especially if it is replacing odd form parts.
<BR>
<BR>Brad</FONT></HTML>
--part1_14e.4e610f8.2939507f_boundary--
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=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 21:09:57 EST
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "<Rudy Sedlak>" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Red plaque on Silver plated wire?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Could "Red Plaque" be another way of saying "tarnish"?
If so, dipping the Silver into an antitarnish sounds too easy, there must be
something wrong with this idea?
Rudy Sedlak
RD Chemical Company
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