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Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 14:57:14 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Franck, George" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Solder joints not bonded to copper
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Having worked with John, those boards were most likely Solder plated from a
peptone - Fluoroboric Acid plating bath, and reflowed in hot oil.
The assemblies were wave soldered, pretty sure RMA flux, tri-chlor cleaner.
Those were the days..... Shez.. how old am I now?
George Franck
-----Original Message-----
From: Louis, Edwin @ CSE [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 1:41 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Solder joints not bonded to copper
John Devore at GE E-labs reported on a condition, years ago (circa. 1970s)
on PWAs where the
solder joints look perfect, however, a push with an orange stick allowed the
solder joint to
be pushed off the pad with little force. He termed this slippery solder.
This was blame on
Tin/Lead plating organic levelers and other types of contaminates that
interferred with solder wetting of the pads.
-----Original Message-----
From: Don Vischulis [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 12:41 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Solder joints not bonded to copper
Warren:
What you're seeing is often referred to a double reflow. George Wenger at
Lucent knows a lot about this defect. In a former life, we encountered the
same type of failures. Assemblies passed through the plant but failed in
the field after 1 to 3 years. The SMT solder joints lift off of the board
surface with almost no distortion of the solder joint (leads one to suspect
that the inter-metallic alloy is failing or the copper was contaminated).
The pads on the board appear to be dark gray or look like tarnished copper.
The problem is a combination of wave soldering conditions and board design.
When the board passes over the wave, the top side solder joints reflow or
come close to reflow temperature which induces stress in the top side
component attachment points. I'm sure others can explain it better than me.
The bottom line is that this defect is caused by assembly conditions not by
manufacturing defects in the bare board. Check the archives for more on
this subject.
Don Vischulis
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Warren crow
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 10:08 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Solder joints not bonded to copper
I have a 3 year old assembly that has most of the SMT joints coming off the
pads. The PCB was HASL finished and the SMT components were pasted and
convection re-flow The joints appear to be good visually, but if probed
lightly the components will pop off, leaving only a dull copper pad
exposed. Appears the copper was contaminated prior to HASL, but we should
have noticed an obvious exposed copper prior to assembly. Also the assy.
has thur hole that get wave solder on bottom side after SMT. Could the 2nd
process re-flow the smt without flux and start oxide on copper. I am open
to any input.
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Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 15:14:05 -0400
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Leo Lambert <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: White residue on cored solder
MIME-Version: 1.0
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OK my turn.
Has anybody ever experienced a white residue on reels of cored solder? This
white residue appears on some reels of water soluble cored solder, reels of
low residue cored solder and rosin cored solder. They are stored in
cabinets, relatively dry environment, and used once in a while.
Any thoughts.
Leo Lambert
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Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 15:26:40 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Alan Kreplick <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Sn62 vs. Sn63
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Hello Technet:
We're currently using a water-soluble Sn62 solder paste, in which the
formulation is five plus years old. We're beginning a solder paste
evaluation using the current solder paste, a newer formulation from that
manufacturer plus a half dozen other solder pastes from other leading paste
manufacturers.
Many of the paste manufacturers have asked why we're using Sn62, and we're
now asking ourselves the same question, "Why not make the switch to Sn63
during the paste evaluation?".
So, two questions:
What are the major Pro's & Con's of Sn62 vs. Sn63 (mechanical,
electrical, processing, etc.)?
Anybody willing to share their solder paste evaluation/qualification
(techniques, results, lessons learned, etc.)
As, always, thanks in advance for your responses.
Al Kreplick
Sr. Mfg. Eng.
Teradyne, Inc.
500 Riverpark Drive
North Reading, MA
Tel: 978-370-1726
Fax: 734-661-5352
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Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 16:10:04 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Tom Parkinson - Quality System Manager <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Question for the software "gurus" out there
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Check out Graphic Workshop Professional at:
http://www.mindworkshop.com/alchemy/alchemy.html
GWS will convert about 38 different types of images, plus view them, and
scale them and more.
Tom Parkinson
WinTronics, Inc
Jason Gregory wrote:
>
> Hello all,
> Does any of the software types know of a good .tif to .jpg converter? I need to convert my Agilent 5DX-generated .tif images (which happen to be around 600-700kb) to .jpg's (which are around 50-70kb). I am looking for any free downloads.
> Any help will be greatly appreciated.
>
> Jason Gregory
> Software Specialist - NPI Group
> SCI Systems/Plant 2
> 13000 S. Memorial Pkwy.
> Huntsville, AL. 35803
> (256) 882-4107 x3728
> [log in to unmask]
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 15:10:07 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Mel Parrish <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Sn62 vs. Sn63
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Two original advantages as I recall.
Lower surface tension.
A degree of protection for components that contain nobel metal.
Mel Parrish
Soldering Technology International
Madison, AL
256 705 5530
256 705 5538 Fax
[log in to unmask]
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Alan Kreplick
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 12:27 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Sn62 vs. Sn63
Hello Technet:
We're currently using a water-soluble Sn62 solder paste, in which the
formulation is five plus years old. We're beginning a solder paste
evaluation using the current solder paste, a newer formulation from that
manufacturer plus a half dozen other solder pastes from other leading paste
manufacturers.
Many of the paste manufacturers have asked why we're using Sn62, and we're
now asking ourselves the same question, "Why not make the switch to Sn63
during the paste evaluation?".
So, two questions:
What are the major Pro's & Con's of Sn62 vs. Sn63 (mechanical,
electrical, processing, etc.)?
Anybody willing to share their solder paste evaluation/qualification
(techniques, results, lessons learned, etc.)
As, always, thanks in advance for your responses.
Al Kreplick
Sr. Mfg. Eng.
Teradyne, Inc.
500 Riverpark Drive
North Reading, MA
Tel: 978-370-1726
Fax: 734-661-5352
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Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 16:15:34 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Tom Parkinson - Quality System Manager <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: pin swaging - soldering still required?
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Chris,
In my experience with swaged hardware, especially when used in your
frequency range, they should be soldered. I work with RF in that range
in low wattage (5-50) and if they are not soldered and become loose,
it's a nightmare to troubleshoot. Just swaging is not enough.
eventually, they will come loose as the fiberglass board compresses.
Tom Parkinson
WinTronics, Inc.
Chris Stack wrote:
>
> I need some advice about swaging connector pins. After they are swaged, is
> soldering still neccessary or will clamping down on the pad make an
> acceptable solder joint? The circuits they will be in are in the 450MHz -
> 1GHz range.
>
> Thanks For your help.
>
> Chris
>
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> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 15:36:10 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Marsico, James" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: LEADS FOR LEADLESS CHIP CARIERS
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I've heard of a company that provides leads for leadless chip carriers.
Anyone have any info?
Thanks,
Jim Marsico
Senior Engineer
Production Engineering
EDO Electronics Systems Group
[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
631-595-5879
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Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 16:50:58 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Stephen R. Gregory" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: LEADS FOR LEADLESS CHIP CARIERS
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="part1_93.1128b0cd.28ecd432_boundary"
--part1_93.1128b0cd.28ecd432_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hey Jim!
Go to:
http://www.nasinterplex.com/products.html
-Steve Gregory-
> I've heard of a company that provides leads for leadless chip carriers.
> Anyone have any info?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jim Marsico
> Senior Engineer
> Production Engineering
> EDO Electronics Systems Group
> [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> 631-595-5879
>
--part1_93.1128b0cd.28ecd432_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>Hey Jim!
<BR>
<BR>Go to:
<BR>
<BR>http://www.nasinterplex.com/products.html
<BR>
<BR>-Steve Gregory-
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I've heard of a company that provides leads for leadless chip carriers.
<BR>Anyone have any info?
<BR>
<BR>Thanks,
<BR>
<BR>Jim Marsico
<BR>Senior Engineer
<BR>Production Engineering
<BR>EDO Electronics Systems Group
<BR>[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
<BR>631-595-5879
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT></HTML>
--part1_93.1128b0cd.28ecd432_boundary--
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 08:49:18 +1200
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Michael Bell <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: PCB Cleaning
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
What is the impact on a PCB if an operator has ultrasonically clean a PCB in
IPA. The PCB was cleaned for about 5minutes after the paste had been
scrapped off. Would the PCB absorb the IPA and in-turn lead to delamination
or have any other degrading effect?
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Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 14:03:15 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Crepeau, Phil" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: LEADS FOR LEADLESS CHIP CARIERS
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
hi,
this will do it:
http://www.nasinterplex.com/
phil
-----Original Message-----
From: Marsico, James [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 12:36 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] LEADS FOR LEADLESS CHIP CARIERS
I've heard of a company that provides leads for leadless chip carriers.
Anyone have any info?
Thanks,
Jim Marsico
Senior Engineer
Production Engineering
EDO Electronics Systems Group
[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
631-595-5879
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Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 14:04:29 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Pelkey, Glenn" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Sn62 vs. Sn63
MIME-Version: 1.0
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This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
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We were just asked the SN62 question yesterday by a subcomponent supplier!
So, more than just you questioning the need. Here's what we said:
The 2% silver was added to reduce silver leaching from thick film
conductor pads. Since hybrid manufacturing was our start and remains half
our business, it makes sense to have only one type of solder paste in the
building. Avoids confusion, even though there is a cost factor. There are
some other benefits as well.
Overall advantages:
1) Reduce silver leaching from thickfilm conductor pads.
2) Higher shear strength.
3) Higher creep resistance.
4) Better cosmetic appearance (shiny joint, especially if gold on solder
pad)
5) Process considers SN62 the same as SN63.
Disadvantages:
1) Higher cost.
Glenn
Reference: "Soldering in Electronics," R.J. Klein Wassink
-----Original Message-----
From: Alan Kreplick [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 12:27 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Sn62 vs. Sn63
Hello Technet:
We're currently using a water-soluble Sn62 solder paste, in which the
formulation is five plus years old. We're beginning a solder paste
evaluation using the current solder paste, a newer formulation from that
manufacturer plus a half dozen other solder pastes from other leading paste
manufacturers.
Many of the paste manufacturers have asked why we're using Sn62, and we're
now asking ourselves the same question, "Why not make the switch to Sn63
during the paste evaluation?".
So, two questions:
What are the major Pro's & Con's of Sn62 vs. Sn63 (mechanical,
electrical, processing, etc.)?
Anybody willing to share their solder paste evaluation/qualification
(techniques, results, lessons learned, etc.)
As, always, thanks in advance for your responses.
Al Kreplick
Sr. Mfg. Eng.
Teradyne, Inc.
500 Riverpark Drive
North Reading, MA
Tel: 978-370-1726
Fax: 734-661-5352
------_=_NextPart_001_01C14C4E.FDB7DD50
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
5.5.2653.12">
<TITLE>RE: [TN] Sn62 vs. Sn63</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>We were just asked the SN62 question yesterday by a =
subcomponent supplier! So, more than just you questioning the =
need. Here's what we said:</FONT></P>
<P> <FONT SIZE=3D2>The 2% =
silver was added to reduce silver leaching from thick film conductor =
pads. Since hybrid manufacturing was our start and remains half =
our business, it makes sense to have only one type of solder paste in =
the building. Avoids confusion, even though there is a cost =
factor. There are some other benefits as well.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Overall advantages:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>1) Reduce silver leaching from thickfilm =
conductor pads.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>2) Higher shear strength.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>3) Higher creep resistance.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>4) Better cosmetic appearance (shiny joint, =
especially if gold on solder pad)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>5) Process considers SN62 the same as =
SN63.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Disadvantages:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>1) Higher cost.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Glenn</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Reference: "Soldering in =
Electronics," R.J. Klein Wassink</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Alan Kreplick [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:alan_kreplick@NO=
TES.TERADYNE.COM</A>]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 12:27 PM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: [log in to unmask]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: [TN] Sn62 vs. Sn63</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Hello Technet:</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>We're currently using a water-soluble Sn62 solder =
paste, in which the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>formulation is five plus years old. We're =
beginning a solder paste</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>evaluation using the current solder paste, a newer =
formulation from that</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>manufacturer plus a half dozen other solder pastes =
from other leading paste</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>manufacturers.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Many of the paste manufacturers have asked why we're =
using Sn62, and we're</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>now asking ourselves the same question, "Why =
not make the switch to Sn63</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>during the paste evaluation?".</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>So, two questions:</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2> What are the major Pro's & Con's of =
Sn62 vs. Sn63 (mechanical,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> electrical, processing, etc.)?</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2> Anybody willing to share their solder =
paste evaluation/qualification</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> (techniques, results, lessons learned, =
etc.)</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>As, always, thanks in advance for your =
responses.</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Al Kreplick</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sr. Mfg. Eng.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Teradyne, Inc.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>500 Riverpark Drive</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>North Reading, MA</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Tel: 978-370-1726</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Fax: 734-661-5352</FONT>
</P>
</BODY>
</HTML>
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Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 16:22:07 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Mel Parrish <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: LEADS FOR LEADLESS CHIP CARIERS
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Contact D.K. Pai at GD.([log in to unmask]) in Bloomington.
They have compliant leads for BGA as well as LCCs.
Mel Parrish
Soldering Technology International
Madison, AL
256 705 5530
256 705 5538 Fax
[log in to unmask]
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Marsico, James
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 12:36 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] LEADS FOR LEADLESS CHIP CARIERS
I've heard of a company that provides leads for leadless chip carriers.
Anyone have any info?
Thanks,
Jim Marsico
Senior Engineer
Production Engineering
EDO Electronics Systems Group
[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
631-595-5879
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Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 17:45:32 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Brad Saunders <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: LEADS FOR LEADLESS CHIP CARIERS
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="part1_154.1f8a81a.28ece0fc_boundary"
--part1_154.1f8a81a.28ece0fc_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
James,
There are a couple of companies that provide the service of adding leads to
LCCC's. There are also companies that will "harvest' the die and repackage
it. Penn and/or Austin are two firms that come to mind (add-a-lead). I used
Penn on 144I/O LCCC and higher. The issue now becomes how do you add a
lead.... and that depends on the existing finish.
Also Tintronics in Alabama and Corfin in New Hampshire could probably help
you out. Surf the net, if you can't find info I will find my archive stuff.
Penn has a nice white paper on adding leads that is informative.
Coretec Brad
--part1_154.1f8a81a.28ece0fc_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>James,
<BR>
<BR>There are a couple of companies that provide the service of adding leads to LCCC's. There are also companies that will "harvest' the die and repackage it. Penn and/or Austin are two firms that come to mind (add-a-lead). I used Penn on 144I/O LCCC and higher. The issue now becomes how do you add a lead.... and that depends on the existing finish.
<BR>
<BR>Also Tintronics in Alabama and Corfin in New Hampshire could probably help you out. Surf the net, if you can't find info I will find my archive stuff. Penn has a nice white paper on adding leads that is informative.
<BR>
<BR>Coretec Brad</FONT></HTML>
--part1_154.1f8a81a.28ece0fc_boundary--
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Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 18:24:50 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Yu-Hung Shiau <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: PCB baking conditions
Hi,
* Is anybody sure about the temperatre and time for baking the bare PCBs
that were humidified by condensed moisture to prevent SMT problems?
* Is 120F for 2 hrs appropriate?
Thank you for any input.
YH Shiau
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Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 18:35:58 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Yu-Hung Shiau <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Defintion of "discoloration" on PCB gold fingers
Hi,
Does anybody know the definition of "discoloration" on PCB gold fingers?
How discoloration is discoloration? IPC standard does not define clearly.
Also, how to determine if the discoloration on gold fingers will affect the
interconnection and create contact problem? All prodcut with discoloration
gold fingers were tested on system without creating any issue but customer
still complains.
Thank you for any input.
YH Shiau
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Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 16:57:17 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Elensky, Richard" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: PCB baking conditions
X-To: Yu-Hung Shiau <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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We "baked" boards at 55=B0C for 12 hours (best we could do) (13" x 17" =
boards,
4 layer, 12 per batch). The results were not good. Our survival rate =
was
about 80%.
Our PCB fab shop suggested 150=B0C for 4 hours.
Richard Elensky
Sr. Manufacturing Engineer
[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>=20
Tel: 559-292-1111 x246
Fax: 559-292-9355
Dantel
2991 North Argyle Ave.
Fresno, CA, 93727
Visit our web site at:
http:// www.dantel.com <http://www.dantel.com>=20
----------
From: Yu-Hung Shiau [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 4:25 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] PCB baking conditions
Hi,
* Is anybody sure about the temperatre and time for baking the bare
PCBs
that were humidified by condensed moisture to prevent SMT problems?
* Is 120F for 2 hrs appropriate?
Thank you for any input.
YH Shiau
=09
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Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 20:05:07 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "<Rudy Sedlak>" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Silver vs. Tin vs. ENIG
MIME-Version: 1.0
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At risk of boring the regulars on Technet.....you need to understand the
difference between electroless and immersion plating.
All plating involved transfer of electrons to the metal ions in solution to
turn them from ions to metal.
In electroplating, these electrons come from the rectifier...via heavy wired
connections....but, you have not wired connections to some of the connectors,
so you cannot use electroplating...so you have a choice of electroless or
immersion plating.
In electroless plating, the electrons come from other chemicals in solution,
and can cause plating in places where you do not want it to occur, like on
tank walls, or on parts of the board you do not want plating to
occur....further, the reacted chemicals build up in solution, and affect
plating....altogether electroless plating can be a nightmare.....
Whereas in IMMERSION plating, the electrons are donated from the substrate
metal going into solution, thus immersion plating tend to be substrate
specific, i.e. the immersion Tin will plate ONLY on Copper.
Also, immersion plating is self limiting...when all the substrate is covered,
the plating stops, thus all immersion plating deposits are REAL thin....Tin
is the thickest I have ever heard of at 40 microinches (one micron),
Immersion Gold never gets over 10 microinches (0.25 micron). Whereas
electroless plating can build to any thickness you want, how long do you want
to leave it in the tank.
Any immersion plating system is infinitely easier to run than any electroless
system. Big windows, ease of maintenance, etc.
So, immersion Silver and Tin are always going to be easy and fun compared to
any plating that starts with the descriptor "Electroless".
Hope this helps.
Rudy Sedlak
RD Chemical Company
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Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 17:40:09 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Gary Bremer <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: PCB baking conditions
Content-Type: text/plain
Mime-Version: 1.0
I normally bake the bare boards for 1 hour at 100 ± 5° C. This is sufficient to dry the boards prior to assembly. The only failures that I have encountered was with ridged-flex boards that were not pre-baked.
On Wed, 03 October 2001, "Elensky, Richard" wrote:
>
> We "baked" boards at 55°C for 12 hours (best we could do) (13" x 17" boards,
> 4 layer, 12 per batch). The results were not good. Our survival rate was
> about 80%.
>
> Our PCB fab shop suggested 150°C for 4 hours.
>
>
> Richard Elensky
> Sr. Manufacturing Engineer
> [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>
> Tel: 559-292-1111 x246
> Fax: 559-292-9355
>
> Dantel
> 2991 North Argyle Ave.
> Fresno, CA, 93727
> Visit our web site at:
> http:// www.dantel.com <http://www.dantel.com>
>
>
> ----------
> From: Yu-Hung Shiau [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 4:25 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] PCB baking conditions
>
> Hi,
> * Is anybody sure about the temperatre and time for baking the bare
> PCBs
> that were humidified by condensed moisture to prevent SMT problems?
> * Is 120F for 2 hrs appropriate?
> Thank you for any input.
> YH Shiau
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----
> Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV
> 1.8d
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 09:01:55 +0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "<Peter George Duncan>" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Serialization of PCB's
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Hi, Scott,
Fab Houses quite often put their own serial numbers on boards, so it would
be no big deal for them to put yours on as well as or instead of their own.
Normally, though, it's the assembly you want to serialise, not the board
itself. If a bare board is scrapped prior to assembly, you are left with an
unnecessary gap in the serialisation of the assembly, so I've never had
assembly serial numbers put onto bare boards at fabrication stage.
I have always serialised boards at the start of assembly by stamping or
hand marking with epoxy ink in a pre-designated space. Once all the messy
processes are over that would damage them, labels are finally fitted that
give all the necessary module identification details.
Peter Duncan
"Buscomb,
Scott" To: [log in to unmask]
<SBuscomb@ZIG cc: (bcc: DUNCAN Peter/Asst Prin Engr/ST
HT.COM> Aero/ST Group)
Sent by: Subject: [TN] Serialization of PCB's
TechNet
<[log in to unmask]
ORG>
10/03/01
12:45 AM
Please
respond to
"TechNet
E-Mail
Forum."
Is anyone currently serializing PCB's, pre or post assembly? What methods
are currently available? I am familiar with pad printing, ink-jet, laser,
labels, etc. Are PCB fab vendors usually set up to serialize PCB's?
TIA,
Scott Buscomb
PCB Design Engineer
Zight Corporation
www.zight.com
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 09:29:04 +0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "<Peter George Duncan>" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ENIG v Immersion Ag
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Black pad, from what I've researched and been told, is caused by electrical
imbalances in the Nickel plating process, especially if the plating bath
concentrations are wrong, ususally by not changing the chemicals in the
bath often enough. The solution is normally Phosphor Nickel, and if the
phosphor levels are too high, there is an increased risk of black pad
occurring.
The solution is to gain an understanding of the problem (Ingemar at
Eriksson was very helpful to me with this) and talk over the problem with
your fab house to assure yourself that they are capable. I attach a
relevant instruction that I include to fab houses whenever I have ENIG
boards fabricated. It may be of some use, and is intended to produce a
long-term-solderable and reliable board with the minimum risk of black pad
occurring. Note the stated phosphor levels. The Nickel layer is thicker
than some might like, but it reduces the speed at which copper
intermetallics grow through the nickel and spoil the solderability.
"Board finish shall be 5 microinches (0.12 microns) of Gold over minimum
235 microinches (6 microns) Nickel in accordance with IPC 4552. Surface
finish of copper should be 39 microinches (1 micron) or better prior to
Nickel plating and surface plating of Nickel should be 39 microinches (1
micron) or better prior to plating of gold. Phosphor levels shall be
maintained at between 6% and 8% at time of Nickel plating if using Phosphor
Nickel for plating process. Boards must not be allowed to dry between
plating processes."
Hope it helps.
Peter Duncan
"Kirsch, Clif"
<Clif.Kirsch@SYCAMO To: [log in to unmask]
RENET.COM> cc: (bcc: DUNCAN Peter/Asst Prin Engr/ST
Sent by: TechNet Aero/ST Group)
<[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: [TN] ENIG v Immersion Ag
10/03/01 09:43 PM
Please respond to
"TechNet E-Mail
Forum."
George,
The BGA was removed using an Air-Vac rework station. The pads varied in
appearance from untouched (as though the gold was still present) to dull
gray/black. At that point we did not place a BGA as the pads would not wet
with a hand held iron. The BGA was originally placed and reflowed in a
standard Fuji SMT line. You speak of "black pad" which I am beginning to
hear about. Can you tell me the cause? Is it inherent in the fab
construction/chemistry or in the paste reflow process?
Thanks,
-Clif
-----Original Message-----
From: Wenger, George M (George) [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 7:39 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] ENIG v Immersion Ag
Clif,
When you indicate that "Once the BGA is removed some of the pads
indicate they did not / will not wet", what do you mean? How was the BGA
removed (mechanically or thermally with a repair tool?) What did the
problem pads look like (were they still covered with gold or was the pad a
dull gray or black color?). Did you print solder paste on the pads before
placing and reflowing the BGA?
The answers to the above would be help assessment of the problem. If I had
to guess off the top of my head you might be experiencing a brittle
fracture
like the "Black Pad" problem rather than a soldering problem.
As for immersion silver (IAg) Lucent's been in volume production with IAg
boards since 1997. It is our surface finish of choice.
Regards,
George
George M. Wenger (609) 639-3210 [log in to unmask]
Celiant
Route 569 Carter Road PO Box 900
Hopewell, NJ 08525 Princeton, NJ 08542-0900
-----Original Message-----
From: Guy Ramsey [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 7:07 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] ENIG v Immersion Ag
Be aware that the wetting forces are lower and wetting too is slower on
ENIG
than with HASL or Immersion Silver, or for that matter bare copper. This is
because you are soldering to nickle, not copper. Make sure that the time
above liquidus is long enough and the that temperature under the BGA is hot
enough. You should be able to solder to the ENIG.
Our experience with Immersion Silver has been positive. I prefer it over
Immersion Tin.
But I do not have data to answer your other questions.
Guy Ramsey
Senior Lab Technician / Instructor
E-Mail: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Ph: (610) 362-1200 x107
Fax: (610) 362-1290
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Kirsch, Clif
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 4:45 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] ENIG v Immersion Ag
We are running into solderability issues with ENIG boards, especially under
dense (500+ pins) BGA devices. Once the BGA is removed some of the pads
indicate they did not / will not wet.
Does anyone have experience with immersion silver finished boards from a
reliability and NEBS compliant standpoint? Also are there surface
resistance
issues for test pads that are not reflowed with solder?
Clif Kirsch
Mfg Eng
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 09:59:34 +0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "<Peter George Duncan>" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: pin swaging - soldering still required?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
In former life, whenever we swaged connector pins, we soldered them as
well. This was done partly as extra mechanical support, partly to make a
"proper" chemical electrical contact as opposed to a purely mechanical one,
which can be high resistance, and partly as corrosion protection.
Peter Duncan
Chris Stack
<cstack@DBTRO To: [log in to unmask]
NICS.COM> cc: (bcc: DUNCAN Peter/Asst Prin Engr/ST
Sent by: Aero/ST Group)
TechNet Subject: [TN] pin swaging - soldering still
<[log in to unmask] required?
ORG>
10/04/01
02:36 AM
Please
respond to
"TechNet
E-Mail
Forum."
I need some advice about swaging connector pins. After they are swaged, is
soldering still neccessary or will clamping down on the pad make an
acceptable solder joint? The circuits they will be in are in the 450MHz -
1GHz range.
Thanks For your help.
Chris
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 10:08:50 +0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "<Peter George Duncan>" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: PCB baking conditions
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I'ld make it about 195F for about 1 hour.
Peter Duncan
Yu-Hung Shiau
<yshiau@ATPUS To: [log in to unmask]
A.COM> cc: (bcc: DUNCAN Peter/Asst Prin Engr/ST
Sent by: Aero/ST Group)
TechNet Subject: [TN] PCB baking conditions
<[log in to unmask]
ORG>
10/04/01
07:24 AM
Please
respond to
"TechNet
E-Mail
Forum."
Hi,
* Is anybody sure about the temperatre and time for baking the bare PCBs
that were humidified by condensed moisture to prevent SMT problems?
* Is 120F for 2 hrs appropriate?
Thank you for any input.
YH Shiau
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 09:47:39 +0300
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Brian Ellis <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: PCB Cleaning
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Michael
IMHO, it will have no effect.
Brian
Michael Bell wrote:
>
> What is the impact on a PCB if an operator has ultrasonically clean a PCB in
> IPA. The PCB was cleaned for about 5minutes after the paste had been
> scrapped off. Would the PCB absorb the IPA and in-turn lead to delamination
> or have any other degrading effect?
>
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 08:41:52 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "d. terstegge" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: PCB baking conditions
MIME-Version: 1.0 (Generated by NET-TEL Mailguard SMTP version 4.0.0.22)
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Hi Yu-Hung,
120F won't help much, but at 120C (that's 248 F) you'lll be fine.
Kind regards,
Daan Terstegge
SMT Centre
Thales Communications
Unclassified mail
Personal Website: http://www.smtinfo.net
>>> Yu-Hung Shiau <[log in to unmask]> 10/04 12:24 am >>>
Hi,
* Is anybody sure about the temperatre and time for baking the bare PCBs
that were humidified by condensed moisture to prevent SMT problems?
* Is 120F for 2 hrs appropriate?
Thank you for any input.
YH Shiau
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 09:03:04 +0200
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Sasha Miladinovic <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Question for the software "gurus" out there
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Jason,
Try Irfan View from www.irfanview.com/ . An excellent, lightning-quick
freeware graphics viewer for Windows.
PSP-4 (Paint Shop Pro 6) image support, built-in plug-in for playing
RealAudio (ra) files, MP3 support, QuickTime 3/4 support, animated GIF
support, multipage TIFF support, multiple ICO support, Kodak Digital Ca=
mera
(KDC) format support. Support for Canon CRW format (JPG image only), Co=
py
Shop feature (send image from scanner to printer),
******************************************************
Sasha Miladinovic - Production Engineering
APBiotech, PCB Production, Ume=E5
Tel: +46 (0) 90 150 232
Fax: +46 (0) 90 138 372
E-mail: [log in to unmask]
******************************************************
=
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 09:17:54 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "d. terstegge" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Sn62 vs. Sn63
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Hi Alan,
There was an extensive discussion about this issue one or two months ago. =
I suggest you check the Technet-archives at http://jefry.ipc.org/archives/t=
echnet.html (browse the archives) or http://jefry.ipc.org/SCRIPTS/WA.EXE?S1=
=3Dtechnet (search archives).
For me, the main reason to stick to Sn62 is that nobody here (in the =
Netherlands) seems to be using Sn63, and I don't want to be confronted =
with the potential logistic problems (like longer leadtimes) of using "a =
special".
Kind regards,
Daan Terstegge
SMT Centre
Thales Communications
Unclassified mail
Personal Website: http://www.smtinfo.net
>>> Alan Kreplick <[log in to unmask]> 10/03 8:26 pm >>>
Hello Technet:
We're currently using a water-soluble Sn62 solder paste, in which the
formulation is five plus years old. We're beginning a solder paste
evaluation using the current solder paste, a newer formulation from that
manufacturer plus a half dozen other solder pastes from other leading =
paste
manufacturers.
Many of the paste manufacturers have asked why we're using Sn62, and we're
now asking ourselves the same question, "Why not make the switch to Sn63
during the paste evaluation?".
So, two questions:
What are the major Pro's & Con's of Sn62 vs. Sn63 (mechanical,
electrical, processing, etc.)?
Anybody willing to share their solder paste evaluation/qualification
(techniques, results, lessons learned, etc.)
As, always, thanks in advance for your responses.
Al Kreplick
Sr. Mfg. Eng.
Teradyne, Inc.
500 Riverpark Drive
North Reading, MA
Tel: 978-370-1726
Fax: 734-661-5352
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 10:12:33 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "d. terstegge" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: PCB Cleaning
MIME-Version: 1.0 (Generated by NET-TEL Mailguard SMTP version 4.0.0.22)
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Hi Michael,
In my experience it is not needed to re-bake PCB's after cleaning.
Even when you soak a PCB in a bucket filled with water, it takes hours =
until the board has absorbed enough moisture to result in delamination-prob=
lems.=20
This may not be true for polyimide or other sensitive materials, but for =
standard FR4 I wouldn't worry. =20
Kind regards,
Daan Terstegge
SMT Centre
Thales Communications
Unclassified mail
Personal Website: http://www.smtinfo.net
>>> Michael Bell <[log in to unmask]> 10/03 9:49 pm >>>
What is the impact on a PCB if an operator has ultrasonically clean a PCB =
in
IPA. The PCB was cleaned for about 5minutes after the paste had been
scrapped off. Would the PCB absorb the IPA and in-turn lead to delaminatio=
n
or have any other degrading effect?
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 17:13:06 +0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: jinrong <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: PCB baking conditions
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 07:30:10 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Kasprzak, Bill (sys) USX" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Question for the software "gurus" out there
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I downloaded the irfanview software and find it amazing.
My questions are, "If you load a .tif file and it's 70K in size and then
re-save as a.jpg and it's 7K in size, what exactly is lost?" (Besides the
63K) "Is there a loss of resolution, or what?" If this kind of space can be
saved, is it a good idea to convert all larger file formats, .bmp, .tif,
.gif, etc to .jpg to smaller file formats like .jpg?
Just curious about what is happening. I'm one of those who takes for granted
the operation of a desktop PC.
Bill Kasprzak
Moog Inc., Electronic Assembly Engineering
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alain Savard [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 2:50 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Question for the software "gurus" out there
>
> For Irfanview you have to register the copy at a very moderate fee for
> corporate use. I use it at home all the time!
>
> Alain Savard
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Phil Nutting [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: October 3, 2001 2:36 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Question for the software "gurus" out there
>
>
> I second the motion!
>
> Phil Nutting
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gary Koven [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 2:01 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Question for the software "gurus" out there
>
>
> IrfanView32, http://www.irfanview.com, is the best freeware image viewer
> and converter out there as far as I am concerned.
>
> Gary Koven
> Engineering Services Manager
> Convacent Corporation
> 1043 E Morehead St, Suite 201
> Charlotte, NC 28204
> 704.376.9300 phone
> 704.376.0988 fax
> [log in to unmask]
> www.convacent.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jason Gregory
> Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 1:34 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] Question for the software "gurus" out there
>
>
> Hello all,
> Does any of the software types know of a good .tif to .jpg converter? I
> need to convert my Agilent 5DX-generated .tif images (which happen to be
> around 600-700kb) to .jpg's (which are around 50-70kb). I am looking for
> any free downloads. Any help will be greatly appreciated.
>
>
> Jason Gregory
> Software Specialist - NPI Group
> SCI Systems/Plant 2
> 13000 S. Memorial Pkwy.
> Huntsville, AL. 35803
> (256) 882-4107 x3728
> [log in to unmask]
>
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 07:55:29 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Graham Collins <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Question for the software "gurus" out there
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Bill!
Some detail is indeed lost due to compression. As an experiment - convert =
the JPEG back to a TIFF and compare to the original... In compressing =
files the goal is to discard what you don't notice anyway, but the success =
depends on what you are converting.
An interesting discussion of .gif vs .jpg can be found at http://www.bignos=
ebird.com/losewait.shtml (seriously, it's a site offering tips for web =
page design, and pictures are obviously a big part of pages). =20
And for the record - I typically use Microsoft Photoeditor to convert, =
crop and resize pictures and drawings. Comes with Office I believe. Our =
IS guys frown (OK, foam at the mouth) if we install non-approved software, =
so I'll have to try out the other suggestions we've seen on Technet - at =
home.
regards
Graham Collins
Process Engineer,=20
Northrop Grumman
Atlantic Facility of Litton Systems Canada
(902) 873-2000 ext 6215
>>> [log in to unmask] 10/04/01 08:30AM >>>
I downloaded the irfanview software and find it amazing.
My questions are, "If you load a .tif file and it's 70K in size and then
re-save as a.jpg and it's 7K in size, what exactly is lost?" (Besides the
63K) "Is there a loss of resolution, or what?" If this kind of space can =
be
saved, is it a good idea to convert all larger file formats, .bmp, .tif,
.gif, etc to .jpg to smaller file formats like .jpg?
Just curious about what is happening. I'm one of those who takes for =
granted
the operation of a desktop PC.
Bill Kasprzak
Moog Inc., Electronic Assembly Engineering
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alain Savard [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]=20
> Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 2:50 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Question for the software "gurus" out there
>
> For Irfanview you have to register the copy at a very moderate fee for
> corporate use. I use it at home all the time!
>
> Alain Savard
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Phil Nutting [mailto:[log in to unmask]]=20
> Sent: October 3, 2001 2:36 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Question for the software "gurus" out there
>
>
> I second the motion!
>
> Phil Nutting
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gary Koven [mailto:[log in to unmask]]=20
> Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 2:01 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Question for the software "gurus" out there
>
>
> IrfanView32, http://www.irfanview.com, is the best freeware image viewer
> and converter out there as far as I am concerned.
>
> Gary Koven
> Engineering Services Manager
> Convacent Corporation
> 1043 E Morehead St, Suite 201
> Charlotte, NC 28204
> 704.376.9300 phone
> 704.376.0988 fax
> [log in to unmask]
> www.convacent.com=20
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jason Gregory
> Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 1:34 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] Question for the software "gurus" out there
>
>
> Hello all,
> Does any of the software types know of a good .tif to .jpg converter? I
> need to convert my Agilent 5DX-generated .tif images (which happen to be
> around 600-700kb) to .jpg's (which are around 50-70kb). I am looking for
> any free downloads. Any help will be greatly appreciated.
>
>
> Jason Gregory
> Software Specialist - NPI Group
> SCI Systems/Plant 2
> 13000 S. Memorial Pkwy.
> Huntsville, AL. 35803
> (256) 882-4107 x3728
> [log in to unmask]
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------
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in
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>
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 13:00:24 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Graham Naisbitt <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Setting up conformal coating process
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Peter and others
You should be aware that there are new developments in coating materials
that render your set-up much simpler and less expensive. These are water
based coatings, VOC free and MIL-Spec qualified. They are repairable and
fast to cure - <30 minutes at room temp.
Dave Fish (hello Dave) gave you the correct info regarding various issues
when dealing with conventional solvent based coatings. However, with these
new water based materials: there are no special fire precautions - the fume
extraction isn't mandatory - your insurance costs will diminish,
significantly - the health & safety of your operators is improved.
If you or anyone else wants more details contact me of-line.
Regards, Graham Naisbitt
[log in to unmask]
www.concoat.co.uk <http://www.concoat.co.uk>
For instant access to Product Data Sheets register on the Tech-Shot area of
http:// www.concoat.co.uk <http://www.concoat.co.uk>
Concoat Limited
Alasan House, Albany Park
CAMBERLEY GU16 7PH UK
Phone: +44 (0)1276 691100
Fax: +44 (0)1276 691227
Mobile: +44 (0)79 6858 2121
Attention: This message is for the named person's use only. It may contain
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Although this message has been scanned for known viruses and inappropriate
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systems to intercept any such material.
Thank You - Concoat Ltd
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of peter lee
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 04:57
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Setting up conformal coating process
Hello,
I like to hear your thoughts or experiences on setting
up a safe and efficient (in particular exhaust,
floorinconformal coating process g, ESD concerns,
layout, material storage). Please comment on anything
you feel critical to process control and success.
Peter
__________________________________________________
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 08:12:55 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Brad Saunders <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: LEADS FOR LEADLESS CHIP CARIERS
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="part1_14c.1fba054.28edac47_boundary"
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
James,
These are very good for LCCC's, tried and true.
North Penn Technology Inc.
2294 North Penn Rd.
Hatsfield, PA 19440
(215) 997-3200
Brad
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Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>James,
<BR>
<BR>These are very good for LCCC's, tried and true.
<BR>
<BR>North Penn Technology Inc.
<BR>2294 North Penn Rd.
<BR>Hatsfield, PA 19440
<BR>(215) 997-3200
<BR>
<BR>Brad</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 14:21:46 +0200
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Lon Weffers <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: EN45014
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Dear Technetters
Anyone familliar with the EN45014 standard?
Thanks
Lon Weffers
Matas Electronics bv
Best
The Netherlands
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charset=3Diso-8859-1">
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<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D030551912-04102001><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Dear=20
Technetters</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D030551912-04102001><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D030551912-04102001><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Anyone =
familliar=20
with the EN45014 standard?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D030551912-04102001><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D030551912-04102001><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D030551912-04102001><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>Thanks</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D030551912-04102001><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D030551912-04102001><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Lon=20
Weffers</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D030551912-04102001><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Matas =
Electronics=20
bv</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D030551912-04102001><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>Best</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D030551912-04102001><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The=20
Netherlands</FONT></SPAN></DIV><SPAN class=3D981484505-23031999><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"Z-INDEX: 2; WIDTH: 100%"></FONT>
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 14:48:45 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "d. terstegge" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Question for the software "gurus" out there
X-To: [log in to unmask]
MIME-Version: 1.0 (Generated by NET-TEL Mailguard SMTP version 4.0.0.22)
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Hi Bill,
Definitely a good idea to do such conversions. Transforming a 24-bits-color=
picture from .bmp to .jpg can easily reduce the filesize to 1 percent of =
the original. For photographs the .jpg format is excellent, for technical =
drawings GIF-files are often more precise. The newer PNG-format (also =
availabe in Infranview) provides best of both worlds.
The reason that bmp's are so large is that every pixel needs the same =
amount of storage-space (i.e. 24 bits per pixel), where the GIF-format =
compresses the data by looking for horizontal lines and rectangular blocks =
that "describe" the picture. With GIF-files you loose colors if more than =
256 colors were used in the original file. With JPG-files you keep the =
colors, but loose some accuracy (although you can set a "quality level").
Kind regards,
Daan Terstegge
SMT Centre
Thales Communications
Unclassified mail
Personal Website: http://www.smtinfo.net
>>> "Kasprzak, Bill (sys) USX" <[log in to unmask]> 10/04 12:30 pm >>>
I downloaded the irfanview software and find it amazing.
My questions are, "If you load a .tif file and it's 70K in size and then
re-save as a.jpg and it's 7K in size, what exactly is lost?" (Besides the
63K) "Is there a loss of resolution, or what?" If this kind of space can =
be
saved, is it a good idea to convert all larger file formats, .bmp, .tif,
.gif, etc to .jpg to smaller file formats like .jpg?
Just curious about what is happening. I'm one of those who takes for =
granted
the operation of a desktop PC.
Bill Kasprzak
Moog Inc., Electronic Assembly Engineering
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alain Savard [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]=20
> Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 2:50 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Question for the software "gurus" out there
>
> For Irfanview you have to register the copy at a very moderate fee for
> corporate use. I use it at home all the time!
>
> Alain Savard
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Phil Nutting [mailto:[log in to unmask]]=20
> Sent: October 3, 2001 2:36 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Question for the software "gurus" out there
>
>
> I second the motion!
>
> Phil Nutting
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gary Koven [mailto:[log in to unmask]]=20
> Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 2:01 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Question for the software "gurus" out there
>
>
> IrfanView32, http://www.irfanview.com, is the best freeware image viewer
> and converter out there as far as I am concerned.
>
> Gary Koven
> Engineering Services Manager
> Convacent Corporation
> 1043 E Morehead St, Suite 201
> Charlotte, NC 28204
> 704.376.9300 phone
> 704.376.0988 fax
> [log in to unmask]
> www.convacent.com=20
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jason Gregory
> Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 1:34 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] Question for the software "gurus" out there
>
>
> Hello all,
> Does any of the software types know of a good .tif to .jpg converter? I
> need to convert my Agilent 5DX-generated .tif images (which happen to be
> around 600-700kb) to .jpg's (which are around 50-70kb). I am looking for
> any free downloads. Any help will be greatly appreciated.
>
>
> Jason Gregory
> Software Specialist - NPI Group
> SCI Systems/Plant 2
> 13000 S. Memorial Pkwy.
> Huntsville, AL. 35803
> (256) 882-4107 x3728
> [log in to unmask]
>
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 07:55:39 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Larry Koens <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Sn62 vs. Sn63
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Al,
I asked the same question a couple of months ago when I did a solder
paste evaluation. Like Daan said, check the archives, if you have any
difficulties let me know, I still have many of the emails
Larry Koens=A0
SMT Manufacturing Engineer
E.I. Microcircuits=20
1651 Pohl Road
Mankato, MN
56001
507-345-5786 Ext. 287
507-345-7559 Fax
[log in to unmask]
-----Original Message-----
From: Alan Kreplick [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 2:27 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Sn62 vs. Sn63
Hello Technet:
We're currently using a water-soluble Sn62 solder paste, in which the
formulation is five plus years old. We're beginning a solder paste
evaluation using the current solder paste, a newer formulation from that
manufacturer plus a half dozen other solder pastes from other leading
paste
manufacturers.
Many of the paste manufacturers have asked why we're using Sn62, and
we're
now asking ourselves the same question, "Why not make the switch to Sn63
during the paste evaluation?".
So, two questions:
What are the major Pro's & Con's of Sn62 vs. Sn63 (mechanical,
electrical, processing, etc.)?
Anybody willing to share their solder paste evaluation/qualification
(techniques, results, lessons learned, etc.)
As, always, thanks in advance for your responses.
Al Kreplick
Sr. Mfg. Eng.
Teradyne, Inc.
500 Riverpark Drive
North Reading, MA
Tel: 978-370-1726
Fax: 734-661-5352
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 10:22:52 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Sherry Warner <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: uBGA Rework
X-cc: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Thank you Steve! Looks like we may be on the right track, hopefully
we can get a couple more suggestions for the technetters.
Hi Sherry,
I've posted the footprint of your uBGA up on my web page, I took the
image and made a *.jpg out of it instead of a *.pdf...I called the
image microBGA footprint.
Go to: http://www.stevezeva.homestead.com/
I had something similar to your problem a couple of years ago...except in my
situation there was a trace running between the two pads. So I had to
dig a little
"tunnel" beneath the trace, and connected the two pads with a piece of trace
material. This was on a uBGA as well...
Good Luck!!
-Steve Gregory-
>Steve,
>
>Hope you can help us. I don't think technet will allow attachments,
>I know I can't receive them.
>
>I attached a pdf file of the package outline data sheet for a uBGA we
>attached to a FR4 pcb. Everything worked wonderfully through our
>reflow process. Then the designer found an error in the board layout.
>E3 should have been tied to E4 (active) but wasn't, it is a dead pad
>under the component. In order to get a temporary fix, the best
>solution that we can think of is to remove the part, remove the mask
>between the two pads on the board and apply conductive epoxy.
>Purchase a micro mini-stencil (5 mil) for paste application and
>reflow/attach a new component.
>
>Still in the learning stage and would welcome suggestions, there
>hasn't been much BGA use here on-site until recently.
>
>Thank you,
>Sherry
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 10:38:39 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Jeff Ferry <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: uBGA Rework
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Sherry,
I can offer a few additional options. Believe we'll be reviewing these
procedures next week at the IPC Repairability Committee meeting in Orlando
FL. They're a bit exotic, but might help.
Jumper Wires, BGA Components, Circuit Track Method
http://www.circuittechctr.com/guides/6-2-1.htm
Jumper Wires, BGA Components, Through Board Method
http://www.circuittechctr.com/guides/6-2-2.htm
Jeff Ferry
CEO
Circuit Technology Center, Inc
www.circuittechctr.com
[log in to unmask]
978-374-5000
Chairman
IPC Repairability Committee
-----Original Message-----
From: Sherry Warner [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 10:23 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] uBGA Rework
Thank you Steve! Looks like we may be on the right track, hopefully
we can get a couple more suggestions for the technetters.
Hi Sherry,
I've posted the footprint of your uBGA up on my web page, I took the
image and made a *.jpg out of it instead of a *.pdf...I called the
image microBGA footprint.
Go to: http://www.stevezeva.homestead.com/
I had something similar to your problem a couple of years ago...except in my
situation there was a trace running between the two pads. So I had to
dig a little
"tunnel" beneath the trace, and connected the two pads with a piece of trace
material. This was on a uBGA as well...
Good Luck!!
-Steve Gregory-
>Steve,
>
>Hope you can help us. I don't think technet will allow attachments,
>I know I can't receive them.
>
>I attached a pdf file of the package outline data sheet for a uBGA we
>attached to a FR4 pcb. Everything worked wonderfully through our
>reflow process. Then the designer found an error in the board layout.
>E3 should have been tied to E4 (active) but wasn't, it is a dead pad
>under the component. In order to get a temporary fix, the best
>solution that we can think of is to remove the part, remove the mask
>between the two pads on the board and apply conductive epoxy.
>Purchase a micro mini-stencil (5 mil) for paste application and
>reflow/attach a new component.
>
>Still in the learning stage and would welcome suggestions, there
>hasn't been much BGA use here on-site until recently.
>
>Thank you,
>Sherry
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 10:46:53 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Hinners Hans M Civ WRALC/LUGE <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: PCB baking conditions
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hi,
There's no mystery to baking boards just thermodynamics. The PCB has a
certain mass and depending on local conditions (temp. & humidity) a certain
amount of absorbed moisture. In a high temperature, low humidity environment
(say Phoenix in the summer) I shouldn't have to bake as long as in a low
temp. high humidity area (say Georgia in winter). Different board materials
will behave differently - since they most likely have different heat
capacities. As you know, by baking, you are elevating the PCB's temperature
above ambient (ideally above water's vaporization point), keep it there long
enough to drive/boil the water out and then cool the board before proceeding
to the next step. Once you finish baking and the board temp. drops below
water's boiling point it will start sucking up any moisture in the ambient
atmosphere. <note to self: It's called air, Hans> We store our boards in
dry nitrogen after baking but that's the military world. Also, you don't
want to overload the oven with boards or the heating cycle may take longer.
The higher the temperature the faster the moisture gets driven out.
(Questions for the group: Is baking above Tg a good or bad idea? Further
cure advancement or an opportunity for warp?)
If you have a sensitive scale you could do a weight loss test and determine
how long a particular/typical board has to bake until the moisture is driven
out. One step further would be to track how long it takes the board to
re-absorb the moisture - that would give you an allowable hold time prior to
SMT reflow. And remember, everything expands at elevated temperatures which
might affect your placement accuracy.
To recap:
Bake time depends on:
Material Type
Board mass (or to a deeper level: composition - %copper, glass fiber
& resin)
Ambient conditions (temp. & rel. humidity) / The board's absorbed
moisture
Oven loading (# of boards per bake cycle)
Oven temp. (well above 100 degrees C or 212 degrees F at 1 ATM)
Generic Bake Profile:
Raise board temp from ambient to 100+ degrees C (say 120 - 130
degrees C/250 degrees F for Tg: 140 FR-4)
Hold board temp. above 100+ degrees C
Cool board from 100+ degrees C to a lower temp.
Typical Cycle Time: 1.5 to 2.5 hours
Hans
Integrity First - Service Before Self - Excellence in All We Do
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hans M. Hinners
Electronics Engineer
Warner Robins - Air Logistics Center (WR-ALC/LUGE)
Special Operations Forces System Program Office (SOF - SPO)
Gunship Team
226 Cochran Street
Robins AFB GA 31098-1622
mailto:[log in to unmask]
Com: (478) 926 - 5224
Fax: (478) 926 - 4911
DSN Prefix: 468
-----Original Message-----
From: Yu-Hung Shiau [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 7:25 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] PCB baking conditions
Hi,
* Is anybody sure about the temperatre and time for baking the bare PCBs
that were humidified by condensed moisture to prevent SMT problems?
* Is 120F for 2 hrs appropriate?
Thank you for any input.
YH Shiau
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 15:51:44 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Geoff Layhe <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: EN45014
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Lon,
Never seen EN 45014 before, but the following is from British Standards
catalogue.
Hope it helps
Geoff Layhe
Pub Id : BS EN 45014:1998 Status : Current=20
Title : General criteria for supplier's declaration of conformity=20
Int Relationships : EN 45014:1998 IDT;ISO/IEC Guide 22:1996 IDT=20
ICS Classification : 03.120.20=20
Committee Ref : QS/3=20
ISBN : 0 580 29604 0=20
Replaces : BS 7514:1989=20
Form : A4=20
Pages : 10=20
Price : =A336.00 Non Member PricePrice and contents subject to change
-----Original Message-----
From: Lon Weffers [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 04 October 2001 13:22
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] EN45014
Dear Technetters
=20
Anyone familliar with the EN45014 standard?
=20
=20
Thanks
=20
Lon Weffers
Matas Electronics bv
Best
The Netherlands
_____ =20
=20
_____ =20
=20
=20
Private & Confidential:
This e-mail message is confidential and is intended solely for the =
person or
organisation to whom it is addressed. If the message is received by =
anyone
other than the addressee please return the message to the sender by =
replying
to it and then delete the message from your computer.
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<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
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<BODY>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1>
<P><SPAN class=3D920334214-04102001><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>Lon,</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN class=3D920334214-04102001><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Never=20
seen EN 45014 before, but the following is from British Standards=20
catalogue.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN class=3D920334214-04102001><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Hope it=20
helps</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN class=3D920334214-04102001><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Geoff=20
Layhe</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial>Pub Id : </FONT></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#ff0000=20
size=3D1>BS EN 45014</FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>:1998 Status : =
Current </P>
<P></P>
<P>Title : <STRONG>General criteria for supplier's declaration of=20
conformity</STRONG> </P>
<P></P>
<P>Int Relationships : EN 45014:1998 IDT;ISO/IEC Guide 22:1996 IDT </P>
<P></P>
<P>ICS Classification : 03.120.20 </P>
<P></P>
<P>Committee Ref : QS/3 </P>
<P></P>
<P>ISBN : 0 580 29604 0 </P>
<P></P>
<P>Replaces : BS 7514:1989 </P>
<P></P>
<P>Form : A4 </P>
<P></P>
<P>Pages : 10 </P>
<P></P>
<P>Price : =A336.00 Non Member PricePrice and contents subject to=20
change</P></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Lon Weffers=20
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> 04 October 2001 =
13:22<BR><B>To:</B>=20
[log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> [TN] EN45014<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D030551912-04102001><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Dear=20
Technetters</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D030551912-04102001><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D030551912-04102001><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Anyone familliar=20
with the EN45014 standard?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D030551912-04102001><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D030551912-04102001><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D030551912-04102001><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>Thanks</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D030551912-04102001><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D030551912-04102001><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Lon =
Weffers</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D030551912-04102001><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Matas Electronics=20
bv</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D030551912-04102001><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>Best</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D030551912-04102001><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The =
Netherlands</FONT></SPAN></DIV><SPAN class=3D981484505-23031999><FONT =
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 08:53:34 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Steve Abrahamson <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: PCB baking conditions
YH,
You really want to bake out boards above the boiling point of water (100C)
to drive out the moisture, but below the glass transition temperature (about
140C for FR4) to avoid cross linking of the PCB epoxy. I really think that
the 125C range is where you should be, perhaps for 4-5 hours.
Steve A
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Yu-Hung Shiau [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Wednesday,October 03,2001 5:25 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] PCB baking conditions
>
> Hi,
> * Is anybody sure about the temperatre and time for baking the bare PCBs
> that were humidified by condensed moisture to prevent SMT problems?
> * Is 120F for 2 hrs appropriate?
> Thank you for any input.
> YH Shiau
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
> Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d
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> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 10:23:08 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Brian Lukas <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Ceramic Substrate
Currently I'm working with a supplier of ours that is having quality issues
in snapping there alumina substrates lending to excessive chipping and
microcracking. I would like to know what the standard is in the industry
for scoring, snapping and chipping of .040" alumina substrates. Currently
there item is a 2-up substrate that is laser scored. Due to the excessive
chipping we are seeing random field return failures due to microcracking of
the substrate. Any insight or help would be greatly appreciated.
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 09:53:21 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Buscomb, Scott" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Ceramic Substrate
X-To: "BrianLukas<[log in to unmask]>" <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
For a 0.040" substrate, start with .018" pulse depth and .006" laser pulse
spacing. This is a reference point only and should be adjusted to meet your
specific needs.
Check out Coorstek, www.coorstek.com. They have alot of good info on their
website.
--------------------------------
Scott Buscomb
PCB Design Engineer
Zight Corporation (formerly Colorado MicroDisplay Inc.)
1688 Conestoga St.
Boulder, CO 80301
720 562-0609 (direct)
> 720-562-0793 (fax)
[log in to unmask]
www.zight.com
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 10:23:08 -0500
From: Brian Lukas <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Ceramic Substrate
Currently I'm working with a supplier of ours that is having quality issues
in snapping there alumina substrates lending to excessive chipping and
microcracking. I would like to know what the standard is in the industry
for scoring, snapping and chipping of .040" alumina substrates. Currently
there item is a 2-up substrate that is laser scored. Due to the excessive
chipping we are seeing random field return failures due to microcracking of
the substrate. Any insight or help would be greatly appreciated.
------------------------------
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 11:52:27 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: David Fish <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Setting up conformal coating process
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hi Graham.
Not commenting on the newer formulations that Graham references, the over
spray of most water based, VOC free coatings is a fire hazard, according to
our insurance and fire inspectors.
Dave Fish
----- Original Message -----
From: "Graham Naisbitt" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 5:00 AM
Subject: Re: [TN] Setting up conformal coating process
> Peter and others
>
> You should be aware that there are new developments in coating materials
> that render your set-up much simpler and less expensive. These are water
> based coatings, VOC free and MIL-Spec qualified. They are repairable and
> fast to cure - <30 minutes at room temp.
>
> Dave Fish (hello Dave) gave you the correct info regarding various issues
> when dealing with conventional solvent based coatings. However, with these
> new water based materials: there are no special fire precautions - the
fume
> extraction isn't mandatory - your insurance costs will diminish,
> significantly - the health & safety of your operators is improved.
>
> If you or anyone else wants more details contact me of-line.
>
> Regards, Graham Naisbitt
>
> [log in to unmask]
> www.concoat.co.uk <http://www.concoat.co.uk>
>
> For instant access to Product Data Sheets register on the Tech-Shot area
of
> http:// www.concoat.co.uk <http://www.concoat.co.uk>
>
> Concoat Limited
> Alasan House, Albany Park
> CAMBERLEY GU16 7PH UK
> Phone: +44 (0)1276 691100
> Fax: +44 (0)1276 691227
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of peter lee
> Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 04:57
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] Setting up conformal coating process
>
>
> Hello,
>
> I like to hear your thoughts or experiences on setting
> up a safe and efficient (in particular exhaust,
> floorinconformal coating process g, ESD concerns,
> layout, material storage). Please comment on anything
> you feel critical to process control and success.
>
>
> Peter
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone.
> http://phone.yahoo.com
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 10:46:11 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Misner, Bruce" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: uBGA Rework
Sherry,
The use of conductive epoxy when sandwiched and compressed between 2
surfaces is a decent conductor, the larger the surface area the better.
When painted across a surface as a conductive path, bridging 2 points some
distance apart, it is quite unreliable. Especially if it has to handle
current (I would define as 10-20 ma or greater) or be exposed to repeated
temperature extremes (I would define as 55C-85C or greater delta).
Since the 2 uBGA pads are adjacent, after removing the component, I would
epoxy a small piece of Cu trace or #36 bare wire or even a flattened little
piece of buss wire in place with minimal epoxy in the center only and cure.
You might even have to flatten a #36 wire which measures about (about .005
inch) in diameter. After cure, be sure surfaces are solder wet (pads and
wire ends) with micro iron, then reinstall the uBGA using std rework. You
should end up with a hard solder short with a Cu conductor running through
it. This will handle current and temp extremes. Just one idea, I'm sure.
Good Luck,
Bruce Misner
> ----------
> From: Sherry Warner[SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Reply To: TechNet E-Mail Forum.
> Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 10:22 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] uBGA Rework
>
> Thank you Steve! Looks like we may be on the right track, hopefully
> we can get a couple more suggestions for the technetters.
>
>
>
>
> Hi Sherry,
>
> I've posted the footprint of your uBGA up on my web page, I took the
> image and made a *.jpg out of it instead of a *.pdf...I called the
> image microBGA footprint.
>
> Go to: http://www.stevezeva.homestead.com/
>
> I had something similar to your problem a couple of years ago...except in
> my
> situation there was a trace running between the two pads. So I had to
> dig a little
> "tunnel" beneath the trace, and connected the two pads with a piece of
> trace
> material. This was on a uBGA as well...
>
> Good Luck!!
>
> -Steve Gregory-
>
>
>
> >Steve,
> >
> >Hope you can help us. I don't think technet will allow attachments,
> >I know I can't receive them.
> >
> >I attached a pdf file of the package outline data sheet for a uBGA we
> >attached to a FR4 pcb. Everything worked wonderfully through our
> >reflow process. Then the designer found an error in the board layout.
> >E3 should have been tied to E4 (active) but wasn't, it is a dead pad
> >under the component. In order to get a temporary fix, the best
> >solution that we can think of is to remove the part, remove the mask
> >between the two pads on the board and apply conductive epoxy.
> >Purchase a micro mini-stencil (5 mil) for paste application and
> >reflow/attach a new component.
> >
> >Still in the learning stage and would welcome suggestions, there
> >hasn't been much BGA use here on-site until recently.
> >
> >Thank you,
> >Sherry
>
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 13:26:53 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Sprowles, Jol" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Ni/Au Plating Big Panels
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Can anybody recommend a service who will electroplate nickel and gold o
panels 32" X 40"?
Jol Sprowles, Ph.D.
Senior Process Engineer
Tyco / Electronics / Printed Circuit Group - Stafford Division
Phone: (860)684-5881 ext. 263
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<P><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Can anybody recommend a service who will electroplate nickel and gold o panels 32" X 40"?</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Jol Sprowles, Ph.D.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Senior Process Engineer</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Tyco / Electronics / Printed Circuit Group - Stafford Division</FONT></B>
<BR><B><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FACE="Times New Roman">Phone: (860)684-5881 ext. 263</FONT></B>
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 13:28:42 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Sprowles, Jol" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Ni / Au plating services
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The usual advertisers have a maximum panel size of 24" X 24". Can anybody
recommend a service who will electroplate nickel and gold on panels 40" X
30" or bigger?
Jol Sprowles, Ph.D.
Senior Process Engineer
Tyco / Electronics / Printed Circuit Group - Stafford Division
Phone: (860)684-5881 ext. 263
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">The usual advertisers have a maximum =
panel size of 24" X 24". Can anybody recommend a service who will =
electroplate nickel and gold on panels 40" X 30" or bigger?</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Jol Sprowles, Ph.D.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Senior Process Engineer</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Tyco / Electronics / Printed =
Circuit Group - Stafford Division</FONT></B>
<BR><B><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Times New Roman">Phone: =
(860)684-5881 ext. 263</FONT></B>
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 13:41:31 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Dieselberg, Ron" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: pin swaging - soldering still required?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Chris, I am confused by your question. Connector pins are either soldered or
swaged if you are talking about the wire attachment end of the pin. Swaging
then soldering on connector pins or visversa can be a disaster. Where do the
pads come into play?
Unless you can tolerate a good bit of loss at the freqs. you are talking
about, make sure that you have a solid connection. Remember that RF currents
travel on the surface of the conductors.
Ron Dieselberg
Trainer/Auditor
CMC ELECTRONICS
CINCINNATI
[log in to unmask]
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Stack [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 14:36 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] pin swaging - soldering still required?
I need some advice about swaging connector pins. After they
are swaged, is
soldering still neccessary or will clamping down on the pad
make an
acceptable solder joint? The circuits they will be in are
in the 450MHz -
1GHz range.
Thanks For your help.
Chris
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 13:06:46 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Matt Stanik <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Looking for Chicago-area PCB Position
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hello to the List,
I'm looking for a Chicago-area PCB design/engineering
position. My qualifications include:
* BSEE
* 3+ years PCB design experience, concept to production
* Knowledgeable on PWB signal integrity concepts
* Electrical engineering HW development experience
Thank you,
Matt Stanik
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 13:25:19 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Warren crow <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: PCB baking conditions
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
http://www.isolalaminatesystems.com/technical/techbulletins/index.htm
This is a web site at isola laminates that has a tech paper addressing board baking.
Steve Abrahamson <[log in to unmask]>@IPC.ORG> on 10/04/2001 09:53:34 AM
Please respond to "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
cc:
Subject: Re: [TN] PCB baking conditions
YH,
You really want to bake out boards above the boiling point of water (100C)
to drive out the moisture, but below the glass transition temperature
(about
140C for FR4) to avoid cross linking of the PCB epoxy. I really think that
the 125C range is where you should be, perhaps for 4-5 hours.
Steve A
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Yu-Hung Shiau [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Wednesday,October 03,2001 5:25 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] PCB baking conditions
>
> Hi,
> * Is anybody sure about the temperatre and time for baking the bare PCBs
> that were humidified by condensed moisture to prevent SMT problems?
> * Is 120F for 2 hrs appropriate?
> Thank you for any input.
> YH Shiau
>
>
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 14:51:38 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Marsico, James" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: LEADS FOR LEADLESS CHIP CARIERS
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Does anyone have any reliability data for compliant leads attached to LCCs?
Jim Marsico
Senior Engineer
Production Engineering
EDO Electronics Systems Group
[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
631-595-5879
-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Saunders [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 8:13 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] LEADS FOR LEADLESS CHIP CARIERS
James,
These are very good for LCCC's, tried and true.
North Penn Technology Inc.
2294 North Penn Rd.
Hatsfield, PA 19440
(215) 997-3200
Brad
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 12:40:11 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Ken Patel <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: interWAVE Communications, Inc.
Subject: Looking for pad layout info for 40 mil BGA
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Designers / Assemblers,
I have few urgent needs for 40 mil BGA.
(1) what is the BGA pad size currently being used in layout?
(2) what the hole/pad size being used?
re,
Ken Patel
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 15:43:19 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Kevin Stokes <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Palladium solderability problems
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Everyone,
We are recently having some issues with a G sensor getting adequate
solderability to the palladium leads.
We have looked at the reflow profiles and temps and times look good.
Any ideas what I should look at next to get a grip on this problem?
As always, your help is appreciated.
Kevin
Kevin Stokes
Reliability Manager
Kimball Electronics Group
(812) 634-4207
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Everyone,</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">We are recently having some issues =
with a G sensor getting adequate solderability to the palladium =
leads.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">We have looked at the reflow profiles =
and temps and times look good.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Any ideas what I should look at next =
to get a grip on this problem?</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">As always, your help is =
appreciated.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Kevin</FONT>
</P>
<P><I><FONT COLOR=3D"#000080" FACE=3D"News Gothic MT">Kevin =
Stokes</FONT></I>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Reliability Manager</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Kimball Electronics Group</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">(812) 634-4207</FONT>
</P>
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 14:01:40 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Elensky, Richard" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Palladium solderability problems
X-To: Kevin Stokes <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
To improve our wetting, we had to raise the temperature at a steeper =
rate,
to a higher peak. We were using an Omniflo-5 w/o N2. We created a
ramp-spike type of profile with the peak temperature measured at =
230=B0C. The
wetting improved. The joints will never represent the text book =
definition
of a good joint. Ours were results generally good.
Richard Elensky
Sr. Manufacturing Engineer
[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>=20
Tel: 559-292-1111 x246
Fax: 559-292-9355
Dantel
2991 North Argyle Ave.
Fresno, CA, 93727
Visit our web site at:
http:// www.dantel.com <http://www.dantel.com>=20
----------
From: Kevin Stokes [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 1:43 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Palladium solderability problems
Everyone,=20
We are recently having some issues with a G sensor getting adequate
solderability to the palladium leads.=20
We have looked at the reflow profiles and temps and times look good.
Any ideas what I should look at next to get a grip on this problem?=20
As always, your help is appreciated.=20
Kevin=20
Kevin Stokes=20
Reliability Manager=20
Kimball Electronics Group=20
(812) 634-4207=20
=09
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 16:08:32 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Will Cabrera <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Leaky Capacitors
Does anyone have any experience with multilayer ceramic 1206 capacitors
turning into low value resistors? These are rework capacitors (manually
soldered) between a PTH pin and a #22 ga wire. What are the possible causes
of failure? Is flux absorption into the ceramic a possibility? My strong
suspicion is that they are being damaged by heat during the rework process.
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 17:32:15 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Stephen R. Gregory" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: uBGA Rework...some pictures..
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="part1_94.1aebb235.28ee2f5f_boundary"
--part1_94.1aebb235.28ee2f5f_boundary
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Hi Sherry and all,
Well, I just had to see if I still had it in me...so I jumpered
two uBGA pads together and took pictures. Used fine gage
wire like Bruce said...
WOOO-HOO! The ol' dawg still got in him!
Go to: http://www.stevezeva.homestead.com/
Couldn't drink any coffee though...hehehe.
-Steve Gregory-
--part1_94.1aebb235.28ee2f5f_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>Hi Sherry and all,
<BR>
<BR>Well, I just had to see if I still had it in me...so I jumpered
<BR>two uBGA pads together and took pictures. Used fine gage
<BR>wire like Bruce said...
<BR>
<BR>WOOO-HOO! The ol' dawg still got in him!
<BR>
<BR>Go to: http://www.stevezeva.homestead.com/
<BR>
<BR>Couldn't drink any coffee though...hehehe.
<BR>
<BR>-Steve Gregory-</FONT></HTML>
--part1_94.1aebb235.28ee2f5f_boundary--
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 17:43:28 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Werner Engelmaier <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: LEADS FOR LEADLESS CHIP CARIERS
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Hi Jim,
Yes, I do.
Werner Engelmaier
Engelmaier Associates, L.C.
Electronic Packaging, Interconnection and Reliability Consulting
7 Jasmine Run
Ormond Beach, FL 32174 USA
Phone: 386-437-8747, Fax: 386-437-8737
E-mail: [log in to unmask], Website: www.engelmaier.com
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 16:51:43 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Mel Parrish <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Leaky Capacitors
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Will
Your suspicions are likely to be correct. There has been a great deal of
information published cautioning against point to point soldering of these
components which causes degradation or failure. Internally micro cracking
changes the component value over time if not immediately.
Typical solutions include hot air soldering techniques (skill related),
preheat of the assembly and component with reduced iron temperatures,
machine processing with preheat, etc.
Most of the data supports something around 2 degrees C per second for
temperature limitations of the components. Believe that might be a little
conservative.
Mel Parrish
Soldering Technology International
Madison, AL
256 705 5530
256 705 5538 Fax
[log in to unmask]
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Will Cabrera
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 2:09 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Leaky Capacitors
Does anyone have any experience with multilayer ceramic 1206 capacitors
turning into low value resistors? These are rework capacitors (manually
soldered) between a PTH pin and a #22 ga wire. What are the possible causes
of failure? Is flux absorption into the ceramic a possibility? My strong
suspicion is that they are being damaged by heat during the rework process.
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 16:59:40 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Mel Parrish <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Palladium solderability problems
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0013_01C14CF5.F4D2D1C0"
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C14CF5.F4D2D1C0
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Palladium solderability problemsKevin
In general Palladium solution rate is much slower than other sacrificial
finish materials we use for the purpose. The key then is to extend the
duration of the reflow zone to accommodate the slower rate and it should
improve the wetting results.
Mel Parrish
Soldering Technology International
102 Tribble Drive
Madison, AL 35758
256 705 5530
256 705 5538 Fax
[log in to unmask]
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Kevin Stokes
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 1:43 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Palladium solderability problems
Everyone,
We are recently having some issues with a G sensor getting adequate
solderability to the palladium leads.
We have looked at the reflow profiles and temps and times look good.
Any ideas what I should look at next to get a grip on this problem?
As always, your help is appreciated.
Kevin
Kevin Stokes
Reliability Manager
Kimball Electronics Group
(812) 634-4207
------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C14CF5.F4D2D1C0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Palladium solderability problems</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4616.200" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D662095323-04102001><FONT face=3DTahoma =
color=3D#000080=20
size=3D2>Kevin</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D662095323-04102001><FONT face=3DTahoma =
color=3D#000080 size=3D2>In=20
general Palladium solution rate is much slower than other sacrificial =
finish=20
materials we use for the purpose. The key then is to extend the =
duration=20
of the reflow zone to accommodate the slower rate and it should improve =
the=20
wetting results.
<P><FONT size=3D2>Mel Parrish<BR>Soldering Technology =
International<BR>102 Tribble=20
Drive<BR>Madison, AL 35758<BR>256 705 5530<BR>256 705 5538=20
Fax<BR>[log in to unmask]</FONT> </P> </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D662095323-04102001><FONT face=3DTahoma =
color=3D#000080=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
class=3D662095323-04102001> </DIV></SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> TechNet=20
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Kevin =
Stokes<BR><B>Sent:</B>=20
Thursday, October 04, 2001 1:43 PM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
[log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> [TN] Palladium solderability=20
problems<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Everyone,</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>We are recently having some issues with =
a G sensor=20
getting adequate solderability to the palladium leads.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>We have looked at the reflow profiles =
and temps and=20
times look good.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Any ideas what I should look at next to =
get a grip=20
on this problem?</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>As always, your help is =
appreciated.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Kevin</FONT> </P>
<P><I><FONT face=3D"News Gothic MT" color=3D#000080>Kevin =
Stokes</FONT></I>=20
<BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Reliability Manager</FONT> <BR><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>Kimball Electronics Group</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>(812)=20
634-4207</FONT> </P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 15:19:03 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Kathy Bergman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Rough Dirllling
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Hello,
I have scoured IPC 6012 and am unable to find the the maximum recession
from hole wall allowable on a plated through hole due to rough drilling.
This is measurable only by means of a microsection. I do not have a copy
of the Drilling guideline, DR572A. Does this publication have a
reference to that?
Thank you.
K.Bergman
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 09:02:17 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Rougeux, Scott" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: SPC @ WAVE SOLDER
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
In regards to SPC at wavesolder. I would just like to here from some of the
people in this forum on what type of data they are collecting or sampling.
Any info is beneficial. Thanks.
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 19:05:09 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "<Rudy Sedlak>" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Palladium solderability problems
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Unclear if this will help your problem, but it is worth a shot.
We have an immersion Palladium, and we did some testing on solderability, and
found some unexpected results.....like the fact that the more active fluxes,
and we hypothesized that they probably were chloride containing, worked less
well than less active fluxes.
A clue, perhaps.
Rudy Sedlak
RD Chemical Company
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 16:30:23 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Patrick Lam <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Depaneling Tool for V-groved Boards
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Hi All,
Any suggestion for a depaneling tool for V-groved boards?
Thanks,
Patrick
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 16:44:00 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Elensky, Richard" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Depaneling Tool for V-groved Boards
X-To: Patrick Lam <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
CAB Technology Maestro 3M, 4M
Richard Elensky
Sr. Manufacturing Engineer
[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Tel: 559-292-1111 x246
Fax: 559-292-9355
Dantel
2991 North Argyle Ave.
Fresno, CA, 93727
Visit our web site at:
http:// www.dantel.com <http://www.dantel.com>
----------
From: Patrick Lam [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 4:30 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Depaneling Tool for V-groved Boards
Hi All,
Any suggestion for a depaneling tool for V-groved boards?
Thanks,
Patrick
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 21:32:48 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Brad Saunders <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: LEADS FOR LEADLESS CHIP CARIERS
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Penn
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 22:05:49 -0400
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Bob Walker <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Looking for pad layout info for 40 mil BGA
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Ken,
I had a design that used a 1mm pitch BGA and I used a 18mil NSMD pad along
with a via that had a 20mil pad/10mil hole +0/-10mil.
Regards,
Bob Walker
Sandgate Technologies Inc.
[log in to unmask]
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Ken Patel
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 3:40 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Looking for pad layout info for 40 mil BGA
Designers / Assemblers,
I have few urgent needs for 40 mil BGA.
(1) what is the BGA pad size currently being used in layout?
(2) what the hole/pad size being used?
re,
Ken Patel
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Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 10:15:25 +0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Jonathan A Noquil <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: BGA Solder Ball Rework
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Hello Guys,
I would like to know any informations regarding Solder ball
on BGA oxidation. Our BGAs were heavily oxidized (Solder balls).
Anybody knows how to remove the oxides and prevent it from re-occurring
again? The solder ball we used is 95/5 PbSn alloy.
Thanks and God Bless
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Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 09:15:10 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Neil Atkinson <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SPC @ WAVE SOLDER
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Scott,
Wave solder is always the process people turn to in when they want to
'implement SPC'. I would always answer your question with a question -
"What do you want to control?".
As you know there are many parameters which can affect the quality leaving a
wave soldering machine but most of them should be controlled by the machine
e.g. temperature, speed etc and provided the machine is checked for
calibration these would not benefit from the use of SPC.
Once a process is set up correctly, the biggest influence on the quality of
the output are the parameters which are difficult to measure (at least using
SPC on line) e.g. board design, solderability etc. for this reason I would
advise the use of attribute charts to measure the quality of the output. I
know many quality people think this is not "proper SPC" but it is and can be
used to make improvements. I would use 'p' charts to measure defects per
opportunities or np charts if you are prepared to have a separate chart for
each board.
This type of chart also fits in well with the draft document IPC 9261 and
maybe one day we'll be able to benchmark each other against this standard
(if anyone will release their data!!)
This type of chart will then give you a handle on how well the process is
operating over time and what type of variability you see. The hard bit is
then improving it! The chart obviously doesn't do this for you but it does
help you decide whether you have REALLY improved the process. In making
improvements I often find it useful to have a number of copies of the board
layout and mark them up as measles charts using different colours for
different faults. This simple technique is really useful at identifying
trends due to design etc. And the more information you record the more
useful they become e.g. pallet number, date, time, shift etc.
My final question would be why are you implementing SPC. If it is to meet a
quality requirement to use 'statistical methods' then I would suggest that
you meet this by using a broad range of statistical tools to improve your
process and not just go down the old 'we must implement SPC' route. For
example if you want to trial a different process, flux etc. use statistical
methods (e.g. Chi Squared tests using contingency tables) to compare results
and prove any change / improvement.
I would always advocate the use of statistics to prove a hypothesis but only
use SPC when you need it, don't go looking for a use for it. If you are
already measuring data on a standard chart etc it may be worth looking to
change that to an SPC chart and start working with limits etc.
Good luck,
Neil
-----Original Message-----
From: Rougeux, Scott [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 04 October 2001 15:02
Subject: SPC @ WAVE SOLDER
In regards to SPC at wavesolder. I would just like to here from some of the
people in this forum on what type of data they are collecting or sampling.
Any info is beneficial. Thanks.
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Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 11:44:44 +0300
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Brian Ellis <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Setting up conformal coating process
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Dave
Excuse me, a water spray without VOCs (and all flammable liquids are
VOCs, by definition) is a fire hazard????????????????????????? Wow, I'd
better put sprinklers in over my garden irrigation system, oh! but what
liquid can I use in the sprinklers?
Brian
David Fish wrote:
>
> Hi Graham.
>
> Not commenting on the newer formulations that Graham references, the over
> spray of most water based, VOC free coatings is a fire hazard, according to
> our insurance and fire inspectors.
>
> Dave Fish
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Graham Naisbitt" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 5:00 AM
> Subject: Re: [TN] Setting up conformal coating process
>
> > Peter and others
> >
> > You should be aware that there are new developments in coating materials
> > that render your set-up much simpler and less expensive. These are water
> > based coatings, VOC free and MIL-Spec qualified. They are repairable and
> > fast to cure - <30 minutes at room temp.
> >
> > Dave Fish (hello Dave) gave you the correct info regarding various issues
> > when dealing with conventional solvent based coatings. However, with these
> > new water based materials: there are no special fire precautions - the
> fume
> > extraction isn't mandatory - your insurance costs will diminish,
> > significantly - the health & safety of your operators is improved.
> >
> > If you or anyone else wants more details contact me of-line.
> >
> > Regards, Graham Naisbitt
> >
> > [log in to unmask]
> > www.concoat.co.uk <http://www.concoat.co.uk>
> >
> > For instant access to Product Data Sheets register on the Tech-Shot area
> of
> > http:// www.concoat.co.uk <http://www.concoat.co.uk>
> >
> > Concoat Limited
> > Alasan House, Albany Park
> > CAMBERLEY GU16 7PH UK
> > Phone: +44 (0)1276 691100
> > Fax: +44 (0)1276 691227
> > Mobile: +44 (0)79 6858 2121
> >
> > Attention: This message is for the named person's use only. It may contain
> > confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information. No
> > confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any mistransmission. If
> > you receive this message in error, please immediately delete it and all
> > copies of it from your system, destroy any hard copies of it securely and
> > notify the sender. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose,
> > distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the
> > intended recipient. Concoat Ltd and any of its subsidiaries each reserve
> the
> > right to monitor all e-mail communications through its networks.
> >
> > Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender,
> > except where the message states otherwise and the sender is authorised to
> > state them to be the views of Concoat Ltd or one of its subsidiaries.
> >
> > Although this message has been scanned for known viruses and inappropriate
> > content, we recommend that recipients employ appropriate measures on their
> > systems to intercept any such material.
> >
> > Thank You - Concoat Ltd
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of peter lee
> > Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 04:57
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: [TN] Setting up conformal coating process
> >
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > I like to hear your thoughts or experiences on setting
> > up a safe and efficient (in particular exhaust,
> > floorinconformal coating process g, ESD concerns,
> > layout, material storage). Please comment on anything
> > you feel critical to process control and success.
> >
> >
> > Peter
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone.
> > http://phone.yahoo.com
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> > -----
> > Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d
> > To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in
> > the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet
> > To temporarily halt delivery of Technet send the following message: SET
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> > Search previous postings at: www.ipc.org > On-Line Resources & Databases >
> > E-mail Archives
> > Please visit IPC web site (http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm) for
> additional
> > information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-509-9700
> > ext.5315
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> > -----
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
> > Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d
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> additional
> > information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-509-9700
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> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 04:56:11 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Anita Sargent <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Anita Sargent/Endicott/IBM is out of the office.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
I will be out of the office starting October 5, 2001 and will not return
until October 8, 2001.
I will respond to your message when I return.
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Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 10:00:22 +0100
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Andrew Hoggan <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Palladium solderability problems
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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To form a joint with a palladium finished component, the palladium has to be
dissolved into the joint. This only happens with time and temperature which
is longer and higher than those used for other metal, e.g. silver, tin,
tin/lead, finishes.
I doubt whether the flux chemistry (regardless of whether in wave or paste)
if operating with your standard process has much to do with the joint
formation with palladium unless the chemistry is sensitive to the longer
time or higher temperature. There are flux chemistries currently in use that
will 'burn out' if an incompatible profile, i.e. longer time, and/or higher
temperature is used, if that is the case then you'll need to ask your
suppliers for a material with a wider operating window. It doesn't need to
be excessively wide just less sensitive to time and temperature, some of the
chemistries developed for lead-free assembly may be useful to you.
Best regards.
Andrew Hoggan
BBA Associates Ltd
www.bba-associates.com
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Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 10:00:27 +0100
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Andrew Hoggan <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Setting up conformal coating process
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Got to agree with Brian's' sentiments here.
If you're being told your VOC-free process is a fire hazard then it's
doubtful it's VOC-free or, your insurance/fire inspectors leave a lot to be
desired. Though I suppose in certain circumstances with a spray system there
could be an explosion risk.
Could it be your process is low-VOC and not VOC-free?
Although these terms are frequently used and switched around as though they
mean the same they are definitely not the same thing.
Best regards,
Andrew Hoggan
BBA Associates Ltd
www.bba-associates.com
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Brian Ellis
Sent: 05 October 2001 09:45
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Setting up conformal coating process
Dave
Excuse me, a water spray without VOCs (and all flammable liquids are
VOCs, by definition) is a fire hazard????????????????????????? Wow, I'd
better put sprinklers in over my garden irrigation system, oh! but what
liquid can I use in the sprinklers?
Brian
David Fish wrote:
>
> Hi Graham.
>
> Not commenting on the newer formulations that Graham references, the over
> spray of most water based, VOC free coatings is a fire hazard, according
to
> our insurance and fire inspectors.
>
> Dave Fish
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Graham Naisbitt" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 5:00 AM
> Subject: Re: [TN] Setting up conformal coating process
>
> > Peter and others
> >
> > You should be aware that there are new developments in coating materials
> > that render your set-up much simpler and less expensive. These are water
> > based coatings, VOC free and MIL-Spec qualified. They are repairable and
> > fast to cure - <30 minutes at room temp.
> >
> > Dave Fish (hello Dave) gave you the correct info regarding various
issues
> > when dealing with conventional solvent based coatings. However, with
these
> > new water based materials: there are no special fire precautions - the
> fume
> > extraction isn't mandatory - your insurance costs will diminish,
> > significantly - the health & safety of your operators is improved.
> >
> > If you or anyone else wants more details contact me of-line.
> >
> > Regards, Graham Naisbitt
> >
> > [log in to unmask]
> > www.concoat.co.uk <http://www.concoat.co.uk>
> >
> > For instant access to Product Data Sheets register on the Tech-Shot area
> of
> > http:// www.concoat.co.uk <http://www.concoat.co.uk>
> >
> > Concoat Limited
> > Alasan House, Albany Park
> > CAMBERLEY GU16 7PH UK
> > Phone: +44 (0)1276 691100
> > Fax: +44 (0)1276 691227
> > Mobile: +44 (0)79 6858 2121
> >
> > Attention: This message is for the named person's use only. It may
contain
> > confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information. No
> > confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any mistransmission.
If
> > you receive this message in error, please immediately delete it and all
> > copies of it from your system, destroy any hard copies of it securely
and
> > notify the sender. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose,
> > distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the
> > intended recipient. Concoat Ltd and any of its subsidiaries each reserve
> the
> > right to monitor all e-mail communications through its networks.
> >
> > Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender,
> > except where the message states otherwise and the sender is authorised
to
> > state them to be the views of Concoat Ltd or one of its subsidiaries.
> >
> > Although this message has been scanned for known viruses and
inappropriate
> > content, we recommend that recipients employ appropriate measures on
their
> > systems to intercept any such material.
> >
> > Thank You - Concoat Ltd
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of peter lee
> > Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 04:57
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: [TN] Setting up conformal coating process
> >
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > I like to hear your thoughts or experiences on setting
> > up a safe and efficient (in particular exhaust,
> > floorinconformal coating process g, ESD concerns,
> > layout, material storage). Please comment on anything
> > you feel critical to process control and success.
> >
> >
> > Peter
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone.
> > http://phone.yahoo.com
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> > -----
> > Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d
> > To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text
in
> > the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet
> > To temporarily halt delivery of Technet send the following message: SET
> > Technet NOMAIL
> > Search previous postings at: www.ipc.org > On-Line Resources & Databases
>
> > E-mail Archives
> > Please visit IPC web site (http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm) for
> additional
> > information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-509-9700
> > ext.5315
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> > -----
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
> > Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d
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in
> > the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet
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> Technet NOMAIL
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>
> E-mail Archives
> > Please visit IPC web site (http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm) for
> additional
> > information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-509-9700
> ext.5315
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
> Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d
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E-mail Archives
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=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 10:05:32 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Graham Naisbitt <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Setting up conformal coating process
In-Reply-To: <002e01c14d05$ba4d7c20$53c8d7cc@davidfis>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Dave
We consider that these new formulas are "non-hazardous".
It is true to say that all water based coatings require a small percentage
of co-solvent for them to work properly. The co-solvents we use are, to our
knowledge, on the US EPA VOC exempt list. Their proportion is generally far
less than 3% by volume.
Regards, Graham Naisbitt
[log in to unmask]
www.concoat.co.uk <http://www.concoat.co.uk>
For instant access to Product Data Sheets register on the Tech-Shot area of
http:// www.concoat.co.uk <http://www.concoat.co.uk>
Concoat Limited
Alasan House, Albany Park
CAMBERLEY GU16 7PH UK
Phone: +44 (0)1276 691100
Fax: +44 (0)1276 691227
Mobile: +44 (0)79 6858 2121
Attention: This message is for the named person's use only. It may contain
confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information. No
confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any mistransmission. If
you receive this message in error, please immediately delete it and all
copies of it from your system, destroy any hard copies of it securely and
notify the sender. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose,
distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the
intended recipient. Concoat Ltd and any of its subsidiaries each reserve the
right to monitor all e-mail communications through its networks.
Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender,
except where the message states otherwise and the sender is authorised to
state them to be the views of Concoat Ltd or one of its subsidiaries.
Although this message has been scanned for known viruses and inappropriate
content, we recommend that recipients employ appropriate measures on their
systems to intercept any such material.
Thank You - Concoat Ltd
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of David Fish
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 07:52
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Setting up conformal coating process
Hi Graham.
Not commenting on the newer formulations that Graham references, the over
spray of most water based, VOC free coatings is a fire hazard, according to
our insurance and fire inspectors.
Dave Fish
----- Original Message -----
From: "Graham Naisbitt" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 5:00 AM
Subject: Re: [TN] Setting up conformal coating process
> Peter and others
>
> You should be aware that there are new developments in coating materials
> that render your set-up much simpler and less expensive. These are water
> based coatings, VOC free and MIL-Spec qualified. They are repairable and
> fast to cure - <30 minutes at room temp.
>
> Dave Fish (hello Dave) gave you the correct info regarding various issues
> when dealing with conventional solvent based coatings. However, with these
> new water based materials: there are no special fire precautions - the
fume
> extraction isn't mandatory - your insurance costs will diminish,
> significantly - the health & safety of your operators is improved.
>
> If you or anyone else wants more details contact me of-line.
>
> Regards, Graham Naisbitt
>
> [log in to unmask]
> www.concoat.co.uk <http://www.concoat.co.uk>
>
> For instant access to Product Data Sheets register on the Tech-Shot area
of
> http:// www.concoat.co.uk <http://www.concoat.co.uk>
>
> Concoat Limited
> Alasan House, Albany Park
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> Phone: +44 (0)1276 691100
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>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of peter lee
> Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 04:57
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] Setting up conformal coating process
>
>
> Hello,
>
> I like to hear your thoughts or experiences on setting
> up a safe and efficient (in particular exhaust,
> floorinconformal coating process g, ESD concerns,
> layout, material storage). Please comment on anything
> you feel critical to process control and success.
>
>
> Peter
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone.
> http://phone.yahoo.com
>
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Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 10:16:21 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Adrian Irwin <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SPC @ WAVE SOLDER
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
I believe that the comments made by Neil are good ones and attribute charts
definitely give some good feedback, however the use of attribute charts to
measure defects is not a control chart as such, as the chart measures the
output of the process and not the input variables, which ultimately decides
the output result. Yes it is difficult to establish what the critical input
variables are, but they can be identified depending on the type of defects
you are getting.
For example, if you are using a double wave and soldering SMT devices, you
may be experiencing dry joints on SOT23's. Experience and controlled
experimentation as proven that the pressure and height of the chip wave are
critical factors for this defect type, therefore you could establish an SPC
chart on these 2 factors. If you are experiencing solder shorts on SOIC's
then it is possible to measure the time in the second wave as a key factor.
However, the process window can be increased dramatically by ensuring the
PCB design is correct, e.g pad size, rotation, minimum spacings, minimal
shadowing etc..
So an attribute chart is good at quantifying the process capability (the
process is not just wavesoldering, it includes design, component finish
variation, component package variation..... ) but may not assist in
controlling the input variables.
Hope this makes sense.
Neil Atkinson
<Neil.Atkinson@STAD To: [log in to unmask]
IUM.CO.UK> cc:
Sent by: TechNet Subject: Re: [TN] SPC @ WAVE SOLDER
<[log in to unmask]>
10/05/01 09:15 AM
Please respond to
"TechNet E-Mail
Forum."
Scott,
Wave solder is always the process people turn to in when they want to
'implement SPC'. I would always answer your question with a question -
"What do you want to control?".
As you know there are many parameters which can affect the quality leaving
a
wave soldering machine but most of them should be controlled by the machine
e.g. temperature, speed etc and provided the machine is checked for
calibration these would not benefit from the use of SPC.
Once a process is set up correctly, the biggest influence on the quality of
the output are the parameters which are difficult to measure (at least
using
SPC on line) e.g. board design, solderability etc. for this reason I would
advise the use of attribute charts to measure the quality of the output. I
know many quality people think this is not "proper SPC" but it is and can
be
used to make improvements. I would use 'p' charts to measure defects per
opportunities or np charts if you are prepared to have a separate chart for
each board.
This type of chart also fits in well with the draft document IPC 9261 and
maybe one day we'll be able to benchmark each other against this standard
(if anyone will release their data!!)
This type of chart will then give you a handle on how well the process is
operating over time and what type of variability you see. The hard bit is
then improving it! The chart obviously doesn't do this for you but it does
help you decide whether you have REALLY improved the process. In making
improvements I often find it useful to have a number of copies of the board
layout and mark them up as measles charts using different colours for
different faults. This simple technique is really useful at identifying
trends due to design etc. And the more information you record the more
useful they become e.g. pallet number, date, time, shift etc.
My final question would be why are you implementing SPC. If it is to meet
a
quality requirement to use 'statistical methods' then I would suggest that
you meet this by using a broad range of statistical tools to improve your
process and not just go down the old 'we must implement SPC' route. For
example if you want to trial a different process, flux etc. use
statistical
methods (e.g. Chi Squared tests using contingency tables) to compare
results
and prove any change / improvement.
I would always advocate the use of statistics to prove a hypothesis but
only
use SPC when you need it, don't go looking for a use for it. If you are
already measuring data on a standard chart etc it may be worth looking to
change that to an SPC chart and start working with limits etc.
Good luck,
Neil
-----Original Message-----
From: Rougeux, Scott [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 04 October 2001 15:02
Subject: SPC @ WAVE SOLDER
In regards to SPC at wavesolder. I would just like to here from some of the
people in this forum on what type of data they are collecting or sampling.
Any info is beneficial. Thanks.
#####################################################################################
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Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 12:52:35 +0200
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Flatfield, Cadcam" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Delamination testing.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hello all,
Maybe this is a strange question but there are very much absoletb components
to be placed on the boards.
I like to know if there is a test method on testing MLB boards for
delamination.
I have been thincking about placing the boards into a oven for a while
before soldering the boards. What time should i use in the oven and at what
temperature to be sure there will be no delamination.
The soldermethode for these boards is 2 x reflow an 1 x wave.
Best regards,
Gerard Goossens
Flatfield multi print
Tel :+31-344-622556
Fax :+31-344 613652
-----------------------------------
Mail : [log in to unmask]
Website : www.flatfield.nl
-----------------------------------
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Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 08:16:57 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Alan Kreplick <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SPC @ WAVE SOLDER
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On a daily basis, I'm using a Wave Solder Optimizer (made by Technology
Information Corporation) for measuring preheat and wave dynamics (height,
width, parallelism).
On a monthly basis, I'm using a Spray Flux Fixture (made by
Vitronics-Soltec) for measuring flux volume sprayed.
I (the operators) track both with SPC software.
If used and understood, both tools are extremely valuable.
Al Kreplick
Sr. Mfg. Eng.
Teradyne, Inc.
500 Riverpark Drive
North Reading, MA 01864
Tel: 978-370-1726
Fax: 734-661-5352
(Embedded
image moved TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
to file: 10/04/2001 10:02 AM
pic00041.pcx)
Please respond to "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
cc:
Subject: [TN] SPC @ WAVE SOLDER
In regards to SPC at wavesolder. I would just like to here from some of the
people in this forum on what type of data they are collecting or sampling.
Any info is beneficial. Thanks.
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Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 08:37:18 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Yves.Dupuis" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SPC @ WAVE SOLDER
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
We collect dwell time and parallelism data every day (3 samples) using an
unit designed to collect that info and we measure the amount of flux
deposited on a window 3 times a week. We monitor the average reading and the
range of those readings for the first two and we use moving average and
moving range for the amount of flux deposited. These charts prove quite
useful for detecting a number of special variation causes.
yves
Yves Dupuis
Process Engineering
Leitch Technology
Phone: 416-445-9929 X3389 / Fax: 416-445-7927
25 Dyas Road, North York, Ontario M3B 1V7
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rougeux, Scott [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 10:02 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] SPC @ WAVE SOLDER
>
> In regards to SPC at wavesolder. I would just like to here from some of
> the
> people in this forum on what type of data they are collecting or sampling.
> Any info is beneficial. Thanks.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 18:02:09 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Graham Naisbitt <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Misdirected mail
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01C14CFE.AF663600"
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C14CFE.AF663600
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Techies
I am sorry that an internal message seems to have been posted on the TechNet
by our email server.
Our server (zoo.co.uk) is experiencing some severe email problems due to
some overnight spamming to a user - which I found out when I saw my posting!
Sorry for any inconvenience.
Regards, Graham Naisbitt
[log in to unmask]
www.concoat.co.uk
For instant access to Product Data Sheets register on the Tech-Shot area of
http://www.concoat.co.uk
Concoat Limited
Alasan House, Albany Park
CAMBERLEY GU16 7PH UK
Phone: +44 (0)1276 691100
Fax: +44 (0)1276 691227
Mobile: +44 (0)79 6858 2121
Attention: This message is for the named person's use only. It may contain
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Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender,
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state them to be the views of Concoat Ltd or one of its subsidiaries.
Although this message has been scanned for known viruses and inappropriate
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Thank You - Concoat Ltd
------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C14CFE.AF663600
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D020281412-04102001>Techies</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D020281412-04102001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D020281412-04102001>I am =
sorry that an=20
internal message seems to have been posted on the TechNet by our email=20
server.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D020281412-04102001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D020281412-04102001>Our =
server=20
(zoo.co.uk) is experiencing some severe email problems due to some =
overnight=20
spamming to a user - which I found out when I saw my posting!=20
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D020281412-04102001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D020281412-04102001>Sorry =
for any=20
inconvenience.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG>Regards, Graham=20
Naisbitt<BR><BR>[log in to unmask]<BR></STRONG><A=20
href=3D"http://www.concoat.co.uk/"><STRONG>www.concoat.co.uk</STRONG></A>=
</FONT></P>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>For instant access to Product Data =
Sheets register=20
on the Tech-Shot area of http://<A=20
href=3D"http://www.concoat.co.uk/">www.concoat.co.uk</A> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG>Concoat=20
Limited =
<BR>Alasan=20
House, Albany Park<BR>CAMBERLEY GU16 7PH UK<BR>Phone: +44 (0)1276 =
691100<BR>Fax:=20
+44 (0)1276 691227<BR>Mobile: +44 (0)79 6858 2121 </STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><B><FONT size=3D2>
<P>Attention: This message is for the named person's use only. It may =
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or privilege is waived or lost by any mistransmission. If you receive =
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message in error, please immediately delete it and all copies of it from =
your=20
system, destroy any hard copies of it securely and notify the sender. =
You must=20
not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy =
any part=20
of this message if you are not the intended recipient. Concoat Ltd and =
any of=20
its subsidiaries each reserve the right to monitor all e-mail =
communications=20
through its networks.</P>
<P>Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual =
sender,=20
except where the message states otherwise and the sender is authorised =
to state=20
them to be the views of Concoat Ltd or one of its subsidiaries.</P>
<P>Although this message has been scanned for known viruses and =
inappropriate=20
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Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 09:02:49 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Jeff Ferry <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: uBGA Rework
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Bruce,
Agree with your idea about flattening small diameter wire so it will fit
under the BGA. Have another suggestion - use flat copper ribbon. We been
using pure copper ribbon, originally manufactured as magnet wire, for such
applications. We've found sizes as small as .002" x .004", .002" x .006",
.002" x .008", and others. It's pure copper so may need to be overcoated
with epoxy to insulate.
Jeff Ferry
CEO
Circuit Technology Center, Inc
www.circuittechctr.com
[log in to unmask]
978-374-5000
-----Original Message-----
From: Misner, Bruce [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 12:46 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] uBGA Rework
Sherry,
The use of conductive epoxy when sandwiched and compressed between 2
surfaces is a decent conductor, the larger the surface area the better.
When painted across a surface as a conductive path, bridging 2 points some
distance apart, it is quite unreliable. Especially if it has to handle
current (I would define as 10-20 ma or greater) or be exposed to repeated
temperature extremes (I would define as 55C-85C or greater delta).
Since the 2 uBGA pads are adjacent, after removing the component, I would
epoxy a small piece of Cu trace or #36 bare wire or even a flattened little
piece of buss wire in place with minimal epoxy in the center only and cure.
You might even have to flatten a #36 wire which measures about (about .005
inch) in diameter. After cure, be sure surfaces are solder wet (pads and
wire ends) with micro iron, then reinstall the uBGA using std rework. You
should end up with a hard solder short with a Cu conductor running through
it. This will handle current and temp extremes. Just one idea, I'm sure.
Good Luck,
Bruce Misner
> ----------
> From: Sherry Warner[SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Reply To: TechNet E-Mail Forum.
> Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 10:22 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] uBGA Rework
>
> Thank you Steve! Looks like we may be on the right track, hopefully
> we can get a couple more suggestions for the technetters.
>
>
>
>
> Hi Sherry,
>
> I've posted the footprint of your uBGA up on my web page, I took the
> image and made a *.jpg out of it instead of a *.pdf...I called the
> image microBGA footprint.
>
> Go to: http://www.stevezeva.homestead.com/
>
> I had something similar to your problem a couple of years ago...except in
> my
> situation there was a trace running between the two pads. So I had to
> dig a little
> "tunnel" beneath the trace, and connected the two pads with a piece of
> trace
> material. This was on a uBGA as well...
>
> Good Luck!!
>
> -Steve Gregory-
>
>
>
> >Steve,
> >
> >Hope you can help us. I don't think technet will allow attachments,
> >I know I can't receive them.
> >
> >I attached a pdf file of the package outline data sheet for a uBGA we
> >attached to a FR4 pcb. Everything worked wonderfully through our
> >reflow process. Then the designer found an error in the board layout.
> >E3 should have been tied to E4 (active) but wasn't, it is a dead pad
> >under the component. In order to get a temporary fix, the best
> >solution that we can think of is to remove the part, remove the mask
> >between the two pads on the board and apply conductive epoxy.
> >Purchase a micro mini-stencil (5 mil) for paste application and
> >reflow/attach a new component.
> >
> >Still in the learning stage and would welcome suggestions, there
> >hasn't been much BGA use here on-site until recently.
> >
> >Thank you,
> >Sherry
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 14:07:46 +0100
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Andrew Hoggan <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SPC @ WAVE SOLDER
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Agreed!
The sprayed flux volume is critical to effective soldering, being able to
measure and control it is extremely important. It's almost amazing how many
reputable assembly companies do not understand the effect of too much or too
little flux and it's effect. The same goes for pre-heat.
Regards,
Andrew Hoggan
BBA Associates Ltd
www.bba-associates.com
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Alan Kreplick
Sent: 05 October 2001 13:17
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] SPC @ WAVE SOLDER
On a daily basis, I'm using a Wave Solder Optimizer (made by Technology
Information Corporation) for measuring preheat and wave dynamics (height,
width, parallelism).
On a monthly basis, I'm using a Spray Flux Fixture (made by
Vitronics-Soltec) for measuring flux volume sprayed.
I (the operators) track both with SPC software.
If used and understood, both tools are extremely valuable.
Al Kreplick
Sr. Mfg. Eng.
Teradyne, Inc.
500 Riverpark Drive
North Reading, MA 01864
Tel: 978-370-1726
Fax: 734-661-5352
(Embedded
image moved TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
to file: 10/04/2001 10:02 AM
pic00041.pcx)
Please respond to "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
cc:
Subject: [TN] SPC @ WAVE SOLDER
In regards to SPC at wavesolder. I would just like to here from some of the
people in this forum on what type of data they are collecting or sampling.
Any info is beneficial. Thanks.
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Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 09:36:04 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Stephen R. Gregory" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: TRI Lawsuit status...
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Jack or anybody?
Anybody hear anything about the status of the lawsuits that were filed
challenging the EPA 's TRI legislation? Reason I ask is that Lisa Haynes from
the IPC sent a email out about a TRI compliance workshop being held in Denver
Colorado this month, and that there's gonna be a workshop on this stuff as
well at APEX
...sounding more and more like the lawsuits don't have much of a chance, huh?
Just curious...
-Steve Gregory-
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Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>Jack or anybody?
<BR>
<BR>Anybody hear anything about the status of the lawsuits that were filed challenging the EPA 's TRI legislation? Reason I ask is that Lisa Haynes from the IPC sent a email out about a TRI compliance workshop being held in Denver Colorado this month, and that there's gonna be a workshop on this stuff as well at APEX
<BR>...sounding more and more like the lawsuits don't have much of a chance, huh?
<BR>
<BR>Just curious...
<BR>
<BR>-Steve Gregory-</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 09:01:41 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "<Dan Cavaliere>" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SPC @ WAVE SOLDER
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I would also like to hear of other areas in the through-hole and SMT
process of SPC data that others are
collecting.
Thanks
"Rougeux, Scott" <[log in to unmask]>
Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
10/04/01 10:02 AM
Please respond to "TechNet E-Mail Forum."
To: [log in to unmask]
cc:
Subject: [TN] SPC @ WAVE SOLDER
In regards to SPC at wavesolder. I would just like to here from some of
the
people in this forum on what type of data they are collecting or sampling.
Any info is beneficial. Thanks.
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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I would also like to hear of other areas in the through-hole and SMT process of SPC data that others are</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">collecting.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Thanks</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>"Rougeux, Scott" <[log in to unmask]></b></font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]></font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">10/04/01 10:02 AM</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Please respond to "TechNet E-Mail Forum."</font>
<br>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial"> </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif"> To: [log in to unmask]</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif"> cc: </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif"> Subject: [TN] SPC @ WAVE SOLDER</font></table>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">In regards to SPC at wavesolder. I would just like to here from some of the<br>
people in this forum on what type of data they are collecting or sampling.<br>
Any info is beneficial. Thanks.<br>
<br>
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<br>
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Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 10:54:21 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Lou Hart <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SPC @ WAVE SOLDER
Scott, let me add a few things to what Neil says.
We have SPC charts for copper and gold contamination in the solder pot.
The p or np charts could be applied at other operations in the same way.
Data restricted to areas known to be a problem may be most valuable. I'm
thinking of how our operators say big connectors are hard to wave.
Charting only data from such an area may lead to a larger value of p.
Small "p"s are harder to handle in SPC charts, particularly with regard to
demonstrating process improvements. This thought just occurred to me while
pondering your question and Neil's response, so I haven't tried it.
If SPC data are being collected visually by operators, measurement
uncertainty (from variability within and between operators) will reduce the
value of the charts.
An engineer told me one time that he felt the most valuable thing about SPC
charts are that they force you to look at the data.
In my opinion, expressed earlier in TechNet, some engineers and managers
will not like SPC charts because they can show when an operator has been
given a poor process to work with. Or a design that invites manufacturing
problems.
The greatest value of SPC charts is in demonstrating that a process works
best when people keep their hands off.
For short runs and starting up of a new process, look into using Q-charts.
Lou Hart
-----Original Message-----
From: Neil Atkinson [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2001 4:15 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] SPC @ WAVE SOLDER
Scott,
Wave solder is always the process people turn to in when they want to
'implement SPC'. I would always answer your question with a question -
"What do you want to control?".
As you know there are many parameters which can affect the quality leaving
a
wave soldering machine but most of them should be controlled by the machine
e.g. temperature, speed etc and provided the machine is checked for
calibration these would not benefit from the use of SPC.
Once a process is set up correctly, the biggest influence on the quality of
the output are the parameters which are difficult to measure (at least
using
SPC on line) e.g. board design, solderability etc. for this reason I would
advise the use of attribute charts to measure the quality of the output. I
know many quality people think this is not "proper SPC" but it is and can
be
used to make improvements. I would use 'p' charts to measure defects per
opportunities or np charts if you are prepared to have a separate chart for
each board.
This type of chart also fits in well with the draft document IPC 9261 and
maybe one day we'll be able to benchmark each other against this standard
(if anyone will release their data!!)
This type of chart will then give you a handle on how well the process is
operating over time and what type of variability you see. The hard bit is
then improving it! The chart obviously doesn't do this for you but it does
help you decide whether you have REALLY improved the process. In making
improvements I often find it useful to have a number of copies of the board
layout and mark them up as measles charts using different colours for
different faults. This simple technique is really useful at identifying
trends due to design etc. And the more information you record the more
useful they become e.g. pallet number, date, time, shift etc.
My final question would be why are you implementing SPC. If it is to meet
a
quality requirement to use 'statistical methods' then I would suggest that
you meet this by using a broad range of statistical tools to improve your
process and not just go down the old 'we must implement SPC' route. For
example if you want to trial a different process, flux etc. use
statistical
methods (e.g. Chi Squared tests using contingency tables) to compare
results
and prove any change / improvement.
I would always advocate the use of statistics to prove a hypothesis but
only
use SPC when you need it, don't go looking for a use for it. If you are
already measuring data on a standard chart etc it may be worth looking to
change that to an SPC chart and start working with limits etc.
Good luck,
Neil
-----Original Message-----
From: Rougeux, Scott [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 04 October 2001 15:02
Subject: SPC @ WAVE SOLDER
In regards to SPC at wavesolder. I would just like to here from some of the
people in this forum on what type of data they are collecting or sampling.
Any info is beneficial. Thanks.
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Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 09:57:43 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Warren crow <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Depaneling Tool for V-groved Boards
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
See fancort.com for some depanilizers
Patrick Lam <[log in to unmask]>@IPC.ORG> on 10/04/2001 06:30:23 PM
Please respond to "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
cc:
Subject: [TN] Depaneling Tool for V-groved Boards
Hi All,
Any suggestion for a depaneling tool for V-groved boards?
Thanks,
Patrick
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Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 07:52:41 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Ed Popielarski <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: BGASolder Ball Rework
X-To: [log in to unmask]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0011_01C14D72.B5F000E0"
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------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C14D72.B5F000E0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Jonathan,
The oxidation might be removed by fluxing the bottom of the device and =
reflowing it. If that doesn't work, you may have to reball them. We =
build such systems. Please visit our website and call/e-mail if you have =
any interest.
Regards,
Ed Popielarski
QTA Machine
10 Mc Laren, Ste D
Irvine, Ca. 92618
Phone:949-581-6601
Fax: 949-581-2448
Cel: 949-337-2578
WWW.QTA.NET
------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C14D72.B5F000E0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4807.2300" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hello Jonathan,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The oxidation might be removed by =
fluxing the=20
bottom of the device and reflowing it. If that doesn't work, you may =
have to=20
reball them. We build such systems. Please visit our website and =
call/e-mail if=20
you have any interest.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ed Popielarski<BR>QTA Machine<BR>10 Mc =
Laren, Ste=20
D<BR>Irvine, Ca. 92618</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Phone:949-581-6601<BR>Fax: =
949-581-2448<BR>Cel:=20
949-337-2578</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.QTA.NET">WWW.QTA.NET</A></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 16:05:48 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Neil Atkinson <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SPC @ WAVE SOLDER
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I agree with everything Adrian says and I would never suggest that processes
can be controlled by measuring the output. What I would say though is that
SPC is not always the best way of controlling the input variables.
If something is critical then SPC is the last resort - the best way is
mistake proof e.g. wave height is an input variable of the whole wave
soldering process but is an output of the pump speed, solder volume etc all
of which should be controlled using a closed loop system.
There are many ways to control a process which actually prevent problems
occurring much better than SPC and I would say mistake proof as much as
possible and if you can't mistake proof it then look at SPC.
I would also add that this question has been asked many times on the TechNet
and seems to cause people many problems. If it is so difficult to find a
good use for variable charts in PCB assembly, why do we keep trying. Surely
SPC is a tool to be used when it is useful not a tool which we must find a
use for at all costs...
Attribute charts are very useful in assembly because so much of what we are
recording is counting not measuring e.g. solder joints, component placements
etc. They are not a poor relation to variable charts, just another tool
with a different use. They are statistically sound and for some purposes
can be very useful. e.g. comparing two different fluxes, two different types
of process etc. this cannot be achieved with variable charts.
Regards,
Neil
-----Original Message-----
From: Adrian Irwin [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 05 October 2001 10:16
Subject: Re: SPC @ WAVE SOLDER
I believe that the comments made by Neil are good ones and attribute charts
definitely give some good feedback, however the use of attribute charts to
measure defects is not a control chart as such, as the chart measures the
output of the process and not the input variables, which ultimately decides
the output result. Yes it is difficult to establish what the critical input
variables are, but they can be identified depending on the type of defects
you are getting.
For example, if you are using a double wave and soldering SMT devices, you
may be experiencing dry joints on SOT23's. Experience and controlled
experimentation as proven that the pressure and height of the chip wave are
critical factors for this defect type, therefore you could establish an SPC
chart on these 2 factors. If you are experiencing solder shorts on SOIC's
then it is possible to measure the time in the second wave as a key factor.
However, the process window can be increased dramatically by ensuring the
PCB design is correct, e.g pad size, rotation, minimum spacings, minimal
shadowing etc..
So an attribute chart is good at quantifying the process capability (the
process is not just wavesoldering, it includes design, component finish
variation, component package variation..... ) but may not assist in
controlling the input variables.
Hope this makes sense.
Neil Atkinson
<Neil.Atkinson@STAD To: [log in to unmask]
IUM.CO.UK> cc:
Sent by: TechNet Subject: Re: [TN] SPC @
WAVE SOLDER
<[log in to unmask]>
10/05/01 09:15 AM
Please respond to
"TechNet E-Mail
Forum."
Scott,
Wave solder is always the process people turn to in when they want to
'implement SPC'. I would always answer your question with a question -
"What do you want to control?".
As you know there are many parameters which can affect the quality leaving
a
wave soldering machine but most of them should be controlled by the machine
e.g. temperature, speed etc and provided the machine is checked for
calibration these would not benefit from the use of SPC.
Once a process is set up correctly, the biggest influence on the quality of
the output are the parameters which are difficult to measure (at least
using
SPC on line) e.g. board design, solderability etc. for this reason I would
advise the use of attribute charts to measure the quality of the output. I
know many quality people think this is not "proper SPC" but it is and can
be
used to make improvements. I would use 'p' charts to measure defects per
opportunities or np charts if you are prepared to have a separate chart for
each board.
This type of chart also fits in well with the draft document IPC 9261 and
maybe one day we'll be able to benchmark each other against this standard
(if anyone will release their data!!)
This type of chart will then give you a handle on how well the process is
operating over time and what type of variability you see. The hard bit is
then improving it! The chart obviously doesn't do this for you but it does
help you decide whether you have REALLY improved the process. In making
improvements I often find it useful to have a number of copies of the board
layout and mark them up as measles charts using different colours for
different faults. This simple technique is really useful at identifying
trends due to design etc. And the more information you record the more
useful they become e.g. pallet number, date, time, shift etc.
My final question would be why are you implementing SPC. If it is to meet
a
quality requirement to use 'statistical methods' then I would suggest that
you meet this by using a broad range of statistical tools to improve your
process and not just go down the old 'we must implement SPC' route. For
example if you want to trial a different process, flux etc. use
statistical
methods (e.g. Chi Squared tests using contingency tables) to compare
results
and prove any change / improvement.
I would always advocate the use of statistics to prove a hypothesis but
only
use SPC when you need it, don't go looking for a use for it. If you are
already measuring data on a standard chart etc it may be worth looking to
change that to an SPC chart and start working with limits etc.
Good luck,
Neil
-----Original Message-----
From: Rougeux, Scott [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 04 October 2001 15:02
Subject: SPC @ WAVE SOLDER
In regards to SPC at wavesolder. I would just like to here from some of the
people in this forum on what type of data they are collecting or sampling.
Any info is beneficial. Thanks.
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each reserve the right to monitor all e-mail communications through its networks.
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Although this message has been scanned by MailMarshall for known viruses and
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=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 11:13:28 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Frank Barber <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Looking for some help.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Happy Friday to all,
I understand AI Technologies Inc. in Trenton, NJ was bought out
some time back. I was wondering if anyone knew by whom they were bought
out, and how I could get in contact with them? Any and all help
appreciated.
Thanks,
Frank
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 10:24:17 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Mel Parrish <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: TRI Lawsuit status...
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0018_01C14D87.E36A9020"
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C14D87.E36A9020
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Steve
David Bergman published an article in the October, Circuitree that addresses
this topic. I'm sure that you know how long it takes to go to print with
these, so you might want to talk to the source directly. Good reading in any
case.
Mel Parrish
Soldering Technology International
Madison, AL
256 705 5530
256 705 5538 Fax
[log in to unmask]
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Stephen R. Gregory
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2001 6:36 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] TRI Lawsuit status...
Jack or anybody?
Anybody hear anything about the status of the lawsuits that were filed
challenging the EPA 's TRI legislation? Reason I ask is that Lisa Haynes
from the IPC sent a email out about a TRI compliance workshop being held in
Denver Colorado this month, and that there's gonna be a workshop on this
stuff as well at APEX
...sounding more and more like the lawsuits don't have much of a chance,
huh?
Just curious...
-Steve Gregory-
------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C14D87.E36A9020
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4616.200" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D898401817-05102001><FONT face=3DTahoma =
color=3D#000080=20
size=3D2>Steve</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D898401817-05102001><FONT face=3DTahoma =
color=3D#000080 size=3D2>David=20
Bergman published an article in the October, Circuitree that addresses =
this=20
topic. </FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=3D898401817-05102001><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
color=3D#000080 size=3D2>I'm sure that you know how long it takes to go =
to print=20
with these, so you might want to talk to the source directly. Good =
reading in=20
any case. </DIV>
<DIV>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Mel Parrish</FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Soldering Technology International<BR>Madison, =
AL<BR>256 705=20
5530<BR>256 705 5538 Fax<BR>[log in to unmask]<BR> </FONT>=20
</P></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> TechNet=20
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Stephen R. =
Gregory<BR><B>Sent:</B>=20
Friday, October 05, 2001 6:36 AM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
[log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> [TN] TRI Lawsuit=20
status...<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =
size=3D2>Jack or=20
anybody? <BR><BR>Anybody hear anything about the status of the =
lawsuits that=20
were filed challenging the EPA 's TRI legislation? Reason I ask is =
that Lisa=20
Haynes from the IPC sent a email out about a TRI compliance workshop =
being=20
held in Denver Colorado this month, and that there's gonna be a =
workshop on=20
this stuff as well at APEX <BR>...sounding more and more like the =
lawsuits=20
don't have much of a chance, huh? <BR><BR>Just curious... =
<BR><BR>-Steve=20
Gregory-</FONT> </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C14D87.E36A9020--
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Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 11:26:52 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Phil Nutting <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SPC @ WAVE SOLDER
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Neil,
I agree, don't try to find a reason to use SPC. Use what works best for
you and the application. During Customer audits we have been asked
where our SPC data is and why don't we use it. SPC works well on larger
volumes, but when the volumes are small, 5 to 10 pieces, it is harder to
make SPC or worst yet 6 Sigma work.
Phil Nutting
-----Original Message-----
From: Neil Atkinson [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2001 11:06 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] SPC @ WAVE SOLDER
I agree with everything Adrian says and I would never suggest that
processes
can be controlled by measuring the output. What I would say though is
that
SPC is not always the best way of controlling the input variables.
If something is critical then SPC is the last resort - the best way is
mistake proof e.g. wave height is an input variable of the whole wave
soldering process but is an output of the pump speed, solder volume etc
all
of which should be controlled using a closed loop system.
There are many ways to control a process which actually prevent problems
occurring much better than SPC and I would say mistake proof as much as
possible and if you can't mistake proof it then look at SPC.
I would also add that this question has been asked many times on the
TechNet
and seems to cause people many problems. If it is so difficult to find
a
good use for variable charts in PCB assembly, why do we keep trying.
Surely
SPC is a tool to be used when it is useful not a tool which we must find
a
use for at all costs...
Attribute charts are very useful in assembly because so much of what we
are
recording is counting not measuring e.g. solder joints, component
placements
etc. They are not a poor relation to variable charts, just another tool
with a different use. They are statistically sound and for some
purposes
can be very useful. e.g. comparing two different fluxes, two different
types
of process etc. this cannot be achieved with variable charts.
Regards,
Neil
-----Original Message-----
From: Adrian Irwin [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 05 October 2001 10:16
Subject: Re: SPC @ WAVE SOLDER
I believe that the comments made by Neil are good ones and attribute
charts
definitely give some good feedback, however the use of attribute charts
to
measure defects is not a control chart as such, as the chart measures
the
output of the process and not the input variables, which ultimately
decides
the output result. Yes it is difficult to establish what the critical
input
variables are, but they can be identified depending on the type of
defects
you are getting.
For example, if you are using a double wave and soldering SMT devices,
you
may be experiencing dry joints on SOT23's. Experience and controlled
experimentation as proven that the pressure and height of the chip wave
are
critical factors for this defect type, therefore you could establish an
SPC
chart on these 2 factors. If you are experiencing solder shorts on
SOIC's
then it is possible to measure the time in the second wave as a key
factor.
However, the process window can be increased dramatically by ensuring
the
PCB design is correct, e.g pad size, rotation, minimum spacings, minimal
shadowing etc..
So an attribute chart is good at quantifying the process capability (the
process is not just wavesoldering, it includes design, component finish
variation, component package variation..... ) but may not assist in
controlling the input variables.
Hope this makes sense.
Neil Atkinson
<Neil.Atkinson@STAD To: [log in to unmask]
IUM.CO.UK> cc:
Sent by: TechNet Subject: Re: [TN] SPC
@
WAVE SOLDER
<[log in to unmask]>
10/05/01 09:15 AM
Please respond to
"TechNet E-Mail
Forum."
Scott,
Wave solder is always the process people turn to in when they want to
'implement SPC'. I would always answer your question with a question -
"What do you want to control?".
As you know there are many parameters which can affect the quality
leaving
a
wave soldering machine but most of them should be controlled by the
machine
e.g. temperature, speed etc and provided the machine is checked for
calibration these would not benefit from the use of SPC.
Once a process is set up correctly, the biggest influence on the quality
of
the output are the parameters which are difficult to measure (at least
using
SPC on line) e.g. board design, solderability etc. for this reason I
would
advise the use of attribute charts to measure the quality of the output.
I
know many quality people think this is not "proper SPC" but it is and
can
be
used to make improvements. I would use 'p' charts to measure defects
per
opportunities or np charts if you are prepared to have a separate chart
for
each board.
This type of chart also fits in well with the draft document IPC 9261
and
maybe one day we'll be able to benchmark each other against this
standard
(if anyone will release their data!!)
This type of chart will then give you a handle on how well the process
is
operating over time and what type of variability you see. The hard bit
is
then improving it! The chart obviously doesn't do this for you but it
does
help you decide whether you have REALLY improved the process. In making
improvements I often find it useful to have a number of copies of the
board
layout and mark them up as measles charts using different colours for
different faults. This simple technique is really useful at identifying
trends due to design etc. And the more information you record the more
useful they become e.g. pallet number, date, time, shift etc.
My final question would be why are you implementing SPC. If it is to
meet
a
quality requirement to use 'statistical methods' then I would suggest
that
you meet this by using a broad range of statistical tools to improve
your
process and not just go down the old 'we must implement SPC' route. For
example if you want to trial a different process, flux etc. use
statistical
methods (e.g. Chi Squared tests using contingency tables) to compare
results
and prove any change / improvement.
I would always advocate the use of statistics to prove a hypothesis but
only
use SPC when you need it, don't go looking for a use for it. If you are
already measuring data on a standard chart etc it may be worth looking
to
change that to an SPC chart and start working with limits etc.
Good luck,
Neil
-----Original Message-----
From: Rougeux, Scott [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 04 October 2001 15:02
Subject: SPC @ WAVE SOLDER
In regards to SPC at wavesolder. I would just like to here from some of
the
people in this forum on what type of data they are collecting or
sampling.
Any info is beneficial. Thanks.
########################################################################
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in
error,
please immediately delete it and all copies of it from your system,
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any
hard copies of it securely and notify the sender. You must not,
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message
if you are not the intended recipient. STADIUM GROUP PLC and any of its
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Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender,
except where
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to
be the
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Although this message has been scanned by MailMarshall for known viruses
and
inappropriate content, we recommend that recipients employ appropriate
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Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender,
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Although this message has been scanned by MailMarshall for known viruses
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=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 17:30:35 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "d. terstegge" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SPC @ WAVE SOLDER
MIME-Version: 1.0 (Generated by NET-TEL Mailguard SMTP version 4.0.0.22)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
We a device called the Wave Solder Analyser, that measures contacttimes at =
several depths. Unfortunately we found out that the measurement variation =
was too high to use the data for SPC. What I mean is that if I changed the =
height setting of the solderpot in such a way that it had a dramatic =
effect on the soldering results, the measured contact-times were still =
within the variance of the original wave-settings. The SWA was not able to =
discriminate between an optimal wave setting and a very bad one !=20
The Electrovert-salesman told me that this was due to the nitrogen-interted=
wave (contour-system), which is less stable than the standard lambda-wave.=
He also told me that the newer measuring devices (like ECD's Waverider) =
are much accurate. Don't know if that's true or not, but my conclusion was =
the old-fashioned glassplate ain't so bad !
Daan Terstegge
SMT Centre
Thales Communications
Unclassified mail
Personal Website: http://www.smtinfo.net
=20
>>> Alan Kreplick <[log in to unmask]> 10/05 1:16 pm >>>
On a daily basis, I'm using a Wave Solder Optimizer (made by Technology
Information Corporation) for measuring preheat and wave dynamics (height,
width, parallelism).
On a monthly basis, I'm using a Spray Flux Fixture (made by
Vitronics-Soltec) for measuring flux volume sprayed.
I (the operators) track both with SPC software.
If used and understood, both tools are extremely valuable.
Al Kreplick
Sr. Mfg. Eng.
Teradyne, Inc.
500 Riverpark Drive
North Reading, MA 01864
Tel: 978-370-1726
Fax: 734-661-5352
(Embedded
image moved TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
to file: 10/04/2001 10:02 AM
pic00041.pcx)
Please respond to "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
cc:
Subject: [TN] SPC @ WAVE SOLDER
In regards to SPC at wavesolder. I would just like to here from some of =
the
people in this forum on what type of data they are collecting or sampling.
Any info is beneficial. Thanks.
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Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 08:51:47 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Dorothy M. Lush" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Delamination testing.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Gerard,
We got this email recently with a link to a paper about board baking. See if
it will help you.
http://www.isolalaminatesystems.com/technical/techbulletins/index.htm
This is a web site at isola laminates that has a tech paper addressing board
baking.
Steve Abrahamson <[log in to unmask]>@IPC.ORG> on 10/04/2001 09:53:34 AM
Please respond to "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
cc:
Subject: Re: [TN] PCB baking conditions
YH,
You really want to bake out boards above the boiling point of water (100C)
to drive out the moisture, but below the glass transition temperature
(about
140C for FR4) to avoid cross linking of the PCB epoxy. I really think that
the 125C range is where you should be, perhaps for 4-5 hours.
Steve A
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Yu-Hung Shiau [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Wednesday,October 03,2001 5:25 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] PCB baking conditions
>
> Hi,
> * Is anybody sure about the temperatre and time for baking the bare PCBs
> that were humidified by condensed moisture to prevent SMT problems?
> * Is 120F for 2 hrs appropriate?
> Thank you for any input.
> YH Shiau
>
>
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> ----------
> From: Flatfield, Cadcam[SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Reply To: TechNet E-Mail Forum.
> Sent: Friday, October 05, 2001 3:52 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Delamination testing.
> Importance: High
>
> Hello all,
>
> Maybe this is a strange question but there are very much absoletb
> components
> to be placed on the boards.
>
> I like to know if there is a test method on testing MLB boards for
> delamination.
>
> I have been thincking about placing the boards into a oven for a while
> before soldering the boards. What time should i use in the oven and at
> what
> temperature to be sure there will be no delamination.
>
> The soldermethode for these boards is 2 x reflow an 1 x wave.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Gerard Goossens
> Flatfield multi print
> Tel :+31-344-622556
> Fax :+31-344 613652
>
> -----------------------------------
> Mail : [log in to unmask]
> Website : www.flatfield.nl
> -----------------------------------
>
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Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 11:53:30 -0400
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Leo Lambert <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Palladium solderability problems
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Palladium solderability problemsOne of the things you may want to look at is
the type of flux you are using. Some fluxes are no longer active after they
reach 150C and since it takes longer to solder to palladium, then you will
need a flux which is still active at higher temperature to prevent any
oxidation prior to the soldering operation.
Leo Lambert
EPTAC Corp.
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Kevin Stokes
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 4:43 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Palladium solderability problems
Everyone,
We are recently having some issues with a G sensor getting adequate
solderability to the palladium leads.
We have looked at the reflow profiles and temps and times look good.
Any ideas what I should look at next to get a grip on this problem?
As always, your help is appreciated.
Kevin
Kevin Stokes
Reliability Manager
Kimball Electronics Group
(812) 634-4207
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<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Palladium solderability problems</TITLE>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
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<BODY>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D660315115-05102001>One of=20
the things you may want to look at is the type of flux you are using. =
Some=20
fluxes are no longer active after they reach 150C and since it takes =
longer to=20
solder to palladium, then you will need a flux which is still active at =
higher=20
temperature to prevent any oxidation prior to the soldering=20
operation.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D660315115-05102001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D660315115-05102001>Leo=20
Lambert</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D660315115-05102001>EPTAC=20
Corp.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV align=3Dleft class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> TechNet=20
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Kevin =
Stokes<BR><B>Sent:</B>=20
Thursday, October 04, 2001 4:43 PM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
[log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> [TN] Palladium solderability=20
problems<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Everyone,</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>We are recently having some issues with =
a G sensor=20
getting adequate solderability to the palladium leads.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>We have looked at the reflow profiles =
and temps and=20
times look good.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Any ideas what I should look at next to =
get a grip=20
on this problem?</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>As always, your help is =
appreciated.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Kevin</FONT> </P>
<P><I><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3D"News Gothic MT">Kevin =
Stokes</FONT></I>=20
<BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Reliability Manager</FONT> <BR><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>Kimball Electronics Group</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>(812)=20
634-4207</FONT> </P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 09:14:37 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: KK Chin <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Leaky Capacitors
Mime-Version: 1.0
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We has banned manual soldering for leadless chip capacitors. Years ago we
experienced exactly the same problem. Microsectioning revealed that cracks are
formed across several layers of the interleaved electrodes. Even bigger problem
was that the cracked capacitor would not be detected in the initial test. After
operating for a while, metal migrated across the crack and shorted the layers.
We glad the problem was caught in burn-in rather than in the field. The shorted
capacitor burnt some of our assemblies badly.
Manual soldering was not the only cause of capacitor cracking. AVX and Kemet
published some articles about precautions in design and assembly processes.
K.K. Chin
Artesyn Technologies,
Fremont, CA
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Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 11:08:09 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SPC @ WAVE SOLDER
I still live in the glass plate and matrix world. Simple correlations
between variables as conveyor speed, temps, topside measurements, managing
fluxes and their applications, wave height, contact area parallelism and
dwell time all make solder joint attributes clearly acceptable or not. SPC
is used in a number of the variables and provides, again, correlation to the
matrix (relative to PCB thermal mass, as an example) and the effects of good
process management. Though wave soldering has a few more factors, compared
with hand or reflow soldering, the basics are all the same, to me, for each.
I'm a simple fool and can't change at this point when it works.
MoonMan
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Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 11:14:09 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Yuen, Mike" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Copper migration
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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Greeting to all:
I am interested to know how easy can copper on the PCB to migrate thru
the intermetallic layers during or after the reflow process, provided
the PCB finish is HASL.=20
Thank you in advance for all the help.....
M. Yuen
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Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 11:29:21 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Copper migration
Intermetallic growth begins with the HASL process. No matter how well
managed the process the growth begins here. Add to it various soldering
processes as reflow, wave, and hand, it can become a mess.
MoonMan
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Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 11:34:10 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Leaky Capacitors
Over and over the subject comes up and well it should. Hand soldering seems
the only remidy for some folks who haven't yet learned a good design,
especially in the RF world, minimizes the need especially with those larger
than life pads and traces they hang on to when mostly unnecessary. Neckdowns
I say while recalculating the design/performance requirements.
MoonMan
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Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 11:44:26 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Jack Crawford <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: TRI Lawsuit status...
X-To: [log in to unmask]
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>>> "Fern Abrams" [log in to unmask]> 10/05/01 11:42AM >>
The lawsuit are proceeding at the pace that lawsuits proceed - slowly. =
While our case looks pretty good (at least 50-50) on technical merits; it =
may have to be discontinued due to a lack of funding. If you would like =
to contribute to the lawsuit please let me know. Even if it does proceed =
I am increasingly sceptical about the prospects of winning prior to the =
July 1 reporting deadline; thus we are taking steps to assist IPC members =
in preparing for compliance with the July 1 reporting deadline. =20
We are also continuing efforts to press EPA for a review by the Science =
Advisory Board. It was our hope that this could occur prior to the =
reporting deadline, but as EPA continues to drag its feet, I am increasingl=
y doubtful as to whether this will be completed prior to July 1 either, =
although it is still possible.
Fern Abrams
Director of Environmental Policy
IPC - The Association Connecting Electronic Industries
1333 H Street NW, 11th Floor West
Washington, DC 20005
202-962-0460
fax 202-962-0464
-----Original Messa ge-----
From: Jack Crawford [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2001 11:57 AM
To: [log in to unmask]; Fern Abrams
Subject: Re: [TN] TRI Lawsuit status...
Steve, I've sent this on to Fern Abrams. She may be able to prepare an =
update msg to post to TechNet in response to your posting. jack
>>> [log in to unmask] 10/05/01 08:36AM >>>
Jack or anybody?=20
Anybody hear anything about the status of the lawsuits that were filed =
challenging the EPA 's TRI legislation? Reason I ask is that Lisa Haynes =
from the IPC sent a email out about a TRI compliance workshop being held =
in Denver Colorado this month, and that there's gonna be a workshop on =
this stuff as well at APEX=20
...sounding more and more like the lawsuits don't have much of a chance, =
huh?=20
Just curious...=20
-Steve Gregory-=20
--=_673DEC6A.98F99D93
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1"=
>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY=20
style=3D"MARGIN-TOP: 2px; FONT: 8pt MS Sans Serif; MARGIN-LEFT: 2px">>&g=
t;>=20
"Fern Abrams" <A=20
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]> 10/05/01 11:42AM >>">[log in to unmask]> =
10/05/01=20
11:42AM >></A><BR><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif" size=3D1>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1><SPAN class=3D570041716-05102001></SPAN></FONT><FONT=20=
size=3D1><SPAN class=3D570041716-05102001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1><SPAN class=3D570041716-05102001>The lawsuit are =
proceeding at=20
the pace that lawsuits proceed - slowly. While our case looks pretty =
good=20
(at least 50-50) on technical merits; it may have to be discontinued due =
to a=20
lack of funding. If you would like to contribute to the lawsuit =
please let=20
me know. Even if it does proceed I am increasingly sceptical about =
the=20
prospects of winning prior to the July 1 reporting deadline; thus we are =
taking=20
steps to assist IPC members in preparing for compliance with the July 1=20
reporting deadline. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1><SPAN class=3D570041716-05102001></SPAN></FONT> </=
DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1><SPAN class=3D570041716-05102001>We are also continuing=
efforts=20
to press EPA for a review by the Science Advisory Board. It was our =
hope=20
that this could occur prior to the reporting deadline, but as EPA =
continues to=20
drag its feet, I am increasingly doubtful as to whether this will be =
completed=20
prior to July 1 either, although it is still possible.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1><SPAN class=3D570041716-05102001><FONT=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1><SPAN class=3D570041716-05102001><FONT size=3D2>Fern=20=
Abrams<BR>Director of Environmental Policy<BR>IPC - The Association =
Connecting=20
Electronic Industries<BR>1333 H Street NW, 11th Floor West<BR>Washington,=
=20
DC 20005<BR>202-962-0460<BR>fax=20
202-962-0464<BR></DIV></FONT></SPAN></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DTah=
oma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Messa<SPAN class=3D570041716-05102001><FONT=20
face=3D"MS Sans Serif" size=3D1> </FONT></SPAN>ge-----<BR><B>From:</=
B> Jack=20
Crawford [mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, October =
05,=20
2001 11:57 AM<BR><B>To:</B> [log in to unmask]; Fern Abrams<BR><B>Subject:=
</B>=20
Re: [TN] TRI Lawsuit status...<BR><BR></DIV></FONT><FONT size=3D1>Steve, =
I've=20
sent this on to Fern Abrams. She may be able to prepare an update =
msg to=20
post to TechNet in response to your posting. =20
jack</FONT><BR><BR>>>> [log in to unmask] 10/05/01 08:36AM=20
>>><BR><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2>Jack or =
anybody?=20
<BR><BR>Anybody hear anything about the status of the lawsuits that were =
filed=20
challenging the EPA 's TRI legislation? Reason I ask is that Lisa Haynes =
from=20
the IPC sent a email out about a TRI compliance workshop being held in =
Denver=20
Colorado this month, and that there's gonna be a workshop on this stuff =
as=20
well at APEX <BR>...sounding more and more like the lawsuits don't have =
much=20
of a chance, huh? <BR><BR>Just curious... <BR><BR>-Steve Gregory-</FONT>=
=20
</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></BODY></HTML>
--=_673DEC6A.98F99D93--
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Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 13:00:35 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "<Rudy Sedlak>" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: TRI Lawsuit status...
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From Phil Edelstein of Phibrotech....
MP&M UPDATE: EPA REVIEWING PUBLIC COMMENT ON PROPOSED METAL PRODUCTS AND
MACHINERY EFFLUENT GUIDELINES
The Environmental Protection Agency has just begun it's efforts to read,
understand, and respond to the over 1,000 comments that were filed in
response to the agency's proposed regulation of metal products and
machinery
effluent guidelines (MP&M). According to EPA, the majority of the comments
discuss the economic impact of the proposed rule. Most of the commentors
stated that EPA had underestimated both the cost of the proposed rule as
well as the economic impact. Additional comments questioned the
cost-effectiveness of the proposed rule; achievability of the proposed
limits; the amount of toxics that are not removed by publicly owned
treatment works (POTWs) to which most MP&M wastewater is discharged; and
the
effect the proposed rule will have on the global competitiveness of MP&M
industries.
Since the proposal, EPA has been re-evaluating its assumption that PWB
facilities could recover over 90% of the cost of compliance by passing
costs
through to customers through a price increase. Initial analysis by EPA
indicates that a zero pass-through may be appropriate for the PWB and metal
finishing sectors, however, no formal decision has been made. A change in
this assumption could have a significant effect on the economic impact
analysis by reducing both projected revenues and profits, likely increasing
the number of facilities expected to close as a result of the proposed
rule.
In addition to reconsidering some of its economic assumptions, EPA is
currently collecting additional data for refinement of its proposed rule.
During the months of July, August, and September, EPA collected wastewater
samples at 7 additional MP&M sites, including 3 PWB facilities:
Sanmina-Owego, NY; Photo Circuits-Glen Cove, NY; and Merix-Forest Grove,
OR.
Sampling at the Photo Circuits facility was started during the second week
of September, halted on September 11th, and has been rescheduled for the
second week in October. This data, along with analysis of how it might
affect final limits, is expected to be published, for public review and
comment in a February 2002 Notice of Data Availability (NODA).
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Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 13:04:31 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "<Rudy Sedlak>" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Copper migration
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Actually, intermetallic growth begins the moment the Tin touches the Copper,
however, it is vastly accelerated by heat, but continues and slows as the
intermetallic layer becomes thicker.
Rudy Sedlak
RD Chemical Company
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Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 14:00:48 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Yves.Dupuis" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SPC @ WAVE SOLDER
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I agree that understanding the relationships, in your process, between the
key variables is what matters most. SPC is a system designed to quantify
your natural variation and provide visual tools to detect when your process
is affected by some other cause of variation. The correlations between
variable are usually determined under specific conditions. SPC is best used
to detect changes in conditions that render the models you've developed
invalid and/or inaccurate. For example, regardless of what the maintenance
records say, I can tell when the schedule for pump cleaning has not been
properly followed using my dwell time charts. Since the model which tells me
which parameters are optimal (including pump speed) assumes this maintenance
is done in a certain manner, when maintenance is late the process drifts
away from optimal. The SPC charts warn me this is happening.
yves
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Earl Moon [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Friday, October 05, 2001 12:08 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] SPC @ WAVE SOLDER
>
> I still live in the glass plate and matrix world. Simple correlations
> between variables as conveyor speed, temps, topside measurements, managing
> fluxes and their applications, wave height, contact area parallelism and
> dwell time all make solder joint attributes clearly acceptable or not. SPC
> is used in a number of the variables and provides, again, correlation to
> the
> matrix (relative to PCB thermal mass, as an example) and the effects of
> good
> process management. Though wave soldering has a few more factors, compared
> with hand or reflow soldering, the basics are all the same, to me, for
> each.
> I'm a simple fool and can't change at this point when it works.
>
> MoonMan
>
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Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 13:24:03 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SPC @ WAVE SOLDER
Very well stated and taken as one of the best explanations and reasons for
SPC and specifically how it benefits the process and its managers.
Earl Moon
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Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 13:31:28 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Copper migration
Very simply and well put. My concerns start with HASL as a wasted, mostly
detrimental process as a major contributor to IMC growth. I mean, with all
the other/after processing the board's surface sees, notwithstanding the
surface conditons rendered by HASL, why do it at all? Hell, it's such an old
story but so important I hope it never ends until HASL does.
Earl Moon
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Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 08:58:57 +0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
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From: "Marichu S. Amalin" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Poor wetting on solder joints
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What could be the cause of poor wetting on solder joints and how we can solve it?
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Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 00:03:05 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Stephen R. Gregory" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Poor wetting on solder joints
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="part1_6f.1bb6efaa.28efdc79_boundary"
--part1_6f.1bb6efaa.28efdc79_boundary
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> What could be the cause of poor wetting on solder joints and how we can
> solve it?
Hi Marichu!
Hmmm, you ask quite a broad question...it's kinda' like asking; "What is the
meaning of life?", or; "What came first, the chicken, or the egg?"
There is so many, many reasons for poor wetting, and even what is perceived
to be poor wetting...it all depends on what's being looked at, and how it's
being looked at.
Just one example lately that I've gone through, has to do with a surface
mount socket from SAMTEC. The lead material is a pre-plated Phosphor Bronze
material that is stamped out and has a '"Burr-up" cut on the sides of the
leads, and a "Burr-down" on the toe of the leads. We assembled the boards and
our QA started rejecting them because of "Non-wetting" defects. Had to get
everybody together, look at J-STD-001 and the statement about stamped,
pre-plated leads, not requiring side and end (toe) fillets, and then look at
the connectors together under the scope so that they could see why we didn't
get side and toe fillets...we finally had a meeting of the minds.
So, be a little more specific, exactly what is your problem?
-Steve Gregory-
--part1_6f.1bb6efaa.28efdc79_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">What could be the cause of poor wetting on solder joints and how we can solve it?</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Hi Marichu!
<BR>
<BR>Hmmm, you ask quite a broad question...it's kinda' like asking; "What is the meaning of life?", or; "What came first, the chicken, or the egg?"
<BR>
<BR>There is so many, many reasons for poor wetting, and even what is perceived to be poor wetting...it all depends on what's being looked at, and how it's being looked at.
<BR>
<BR>Just one example lately that I've gone through, has to do with a surface mount socket from SAMTEC. The lead material is a pre-plated Phosphor Bronze material that is stamped out and has a '"Burr-up" cut on the sides of the leads, and a "Burr-down" on the toe of the leads. We assembled the boards and our QA started rejecting them because of "Non-wetting" defects. Had to get everybody together, look at J-STD-001 and the statement about stamped, pre-plated leads, not requiring side and end (toe) fillets, and then look at the connectors together under the scope so that they could see why we didn't get side and toe fillets...we finally had a meeting of the minds.
<BR>
<BR>So, be a little more specific, exactly what is your problem?
<BR>
<BR>-Steve Gregory-
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT></HTML>
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Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 12:51:14 +0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Jonathan A Noquil <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Lead Free Infos
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Hello Guys,
Where can i find lead free informations?
Are there any forums regarding lead free for semiconductors?
Particularly in Power Devices?
Hard to think that most lead free alloys had liquidus temps lower than
240-250 C and
JEDEC standard reflow peak temp is 260 C. This will re-melt our joints. Any
ideas?
Thanks and God Bless
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Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 09:38:11 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: David Fish <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Looking for some help.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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It could be a coincidence that Trenton is close to Princeton Junction, how
about:
AI TECHNOLOGY, INC. 70 WASHINGTON ROAD · PRINCETON JUNCTION, NJ 08550, USA
PHONE (609) 799-9388 · FAX (609) 799-9308 E-Mail: [log in to unmask] West
Coast Office 237 CHKALOV DRIVE, SUITE 205 · VANCOUVER, WA 98684 PHONE (360)
828-0168 · FAX (360) 260-9777 Last Updated: March 15, 2001
Dave Fish
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Barber" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2001 8:13 AM
Subject: [TN] Looking for some help.
> Happy Friday to all,
>
> I understand AI Technologies Inc. in Trenton, NJ was bought out
> some time back. I was wondering if anyone knew by whom they were bought
> out, and how I could get in contact with them? Any and all help
> appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Frank
>
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>
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Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 13:53:32 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Charles Caswell <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Poor wetting on solder joints
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Wow, how long an answer do you want? saw Steve' reply and agree that
"poor wetting" is sometimes a perception rather than reality. In
addition to what Steve described I have had several other "poor wetting"
issues that took considerable explanation to quality. A tapered lead
that has a large shoulder may have solder suddenly stop because of the
rapid heat dissipation at the larger area. This was being rejected
untill I could finally convince QA. of what was happening. Give us some
more info and I am sure you will get several relevant replies.
Charles Caswell
Process Lead, PCB
Frontier Electronic Systems
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet E-Mail Forum. [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2001 8:59 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Poor wetting on solder joints=20
What could be the cause of poor wetting on solder joints and how we can
solve it?
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Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 19:10:08 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
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From: Werner Engelmaier <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Copper migration
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Hi Earl,
I sure do not see it the same way--"My concerns start with HASL as a wasted,
mostly
detrimental process as a major contributor to IMC growth". I have yet to see
a solder joint fail because of 'IMC growth,' with the possible exception of
assemblies that were forgotten in the reflow oven over lunch. I much prefer
to see thick IMC layers than inadequately wetted soldering pads, and with
HASL, as they say: "Nothing solders to solder like solder."
Werner Engelmaier
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Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 02:56:57 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Copper migration
Werner,
I agree with what you say especially the part about boards being left in
reflow over lunch. That's exactly what I had in mind as one part of an
uncontrolled solder coating process. I didn't make my statement very well,
obviously, and I certainly didn't want to mislead the original questioner.
Really, I was trying to comment on how poorly some HASL processes are
managed at cleaning, rinsing, drying (often effecting excessive oxidation),
and fluxing (often not effecting excessive oxidation removal) not
withstanding often allowing boards to be subjected to excessive heat for
longer periods than acceptable, over lunch or not, thus creating
unsolderable surfaces. Nothing solders to solder - that's for sure. Nothing
solders to a "ruined" solder surface produced in a poorly managed process.
HASL often is easy to manage poorly.
Earl
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Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 10:24:02 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Copper migration
Werner and anyone else not tired of this subject,
I ran out of steam this morning at about 0200 and, as it's too cold to enjoy
golf here, I thought I'd rejoin what always is, to me at least, an
interesting subject - HASL. I pose the following for consideration starting
with some paraphrasing of industry experts including you Werner:
When using a tin-lead solder eutectic, the tin reacts with the metal
surfaces (I still want to return to this term as meaning an object?s area
having not depth with regard to diffusion and intermetallic formation), to
be soldered, to form an intermetallic compound. This ?metal? (does it ever
stop being a metal?) layer can be a very high tin concentration on the
solder side and a very high copper concentration on the other side. These
intermetallics can become brittle and weak ? when excessive (how much is
excessive and under what conditions to they become so, specifically, and do
they REALLY become excessive?). When they are excessive, solder joints
becomes susceptible to failure under mechanical stress as vibration or shock.
To produce high quality/reliable solder joints, the IMC must be as thin as
possible. The HASL process simply is a ?coffin nail? that can and should be
avoided. Again, it is, in my opinion, wasted. I think of it this way in
light of so many alternatives as OSP?s, ENIG, etc.
If the HASL process is not well managed (as is often the case when
operators, reduce conveyor speeds attempting, futilely, to effectively cover
copper surfaces, the first step to a ?thick? IMC is begun. Then, in
subsequent soldering operations (wave, reflow, hand, touch-up, repair,
rework, and modification) the layer thickens and the failure mechanism is
promoted. Is this correct or possible? If so, the IMC must be as thin as
possible.
Most recently, over the past few years (more than 25 but I ain?t saying), I
have been asked by clients to help evaluate quick turn board shops promoting
lower costs and faster deliveries. Who doesn?t take advantage? The first
place I go, after the sit down pow wow, is the lab. In many smaller
operations, not well managed but still offering cheap boards with fast
deliveries, chemistry log-books still sit there dusty containing hand
written data never having been entered into even a simple Excel spread sheet
and turned into even simple range charts, never mind XbarR charts. Seldom do
I ever see evidence the HASL flux chemistry or solder purity has bee
analyzed. The reason I bring this up is because this is where it all starts
and often ends as poor quality PCB?s often incapable of supporting soldering
operations capable of producing initial quality solder joints or those
reliable in any manner.
So, again, when an excessively oxidized board is introduced to an ill
managed HASL process, creative attempts often are made to make acceptable
solder termination areas. The effect is either ?ruined? as a non
wetted/wettable solder surface OR one that has excessive IMC formations
(again, how much is too much?).
With all this, I?ve seen some of the most excellent HASL surfaces coming
from well managed operations. I mean they?re flat, ?shiny,? (pardon that
one), and totally support good solder joint formation. So, I guess, my
complaint is why risk it? It?s just not worth it, nor is it necessary.
Earl
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Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 10:36:44 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Copper migration
Maybe more interesting than the original subject, whatever that was, is from
where are all the extra question marks coming in my last posting???????
Very interesting,
MoonMan
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Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 13:33:50 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Yuen, Mike" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Copper migration
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for all the input. I guess the remaining question is should there
be any copper content end up above the IMC layers after reflow? If the
answer is yes, what is the acceptable limit?
Best regards,
M. Yuen
-----Original Message-----
From: Earl Moon [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 10:37 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Copper migration
Maybe more interesting than the original subject, whatever that was, is
from
where are all the extra question marks coming in my last posting???????
Very interesting,
MoonMan
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Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 13:58:23 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Copper migration
Mike,
Part of the answer to your question lies in the following:
This ?metal? layer can be a very high tin concentration on the solder side
and a very high copper concentration on the other side - meaning the base
metal side. In the case of PCB's, this mostly means copper.
Whether copper extends, or can do so, above the IMC layer, I cannot answer
but I believe it should not. How much is too much has always been a question
needing an answer. I think solder joint experts as Werner, and other
soldering and solderability experts, should have this answer to your
important question.
Earl
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Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 08:21:00 +1300
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Michael Bell <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SPC @ WAVE SOLDER
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Dan,
William Messina from "Data Sleuths" wrote a good book called "SPC for SMT"
which outlines how to implemenet SPC into your Surface Mount Lines. The
book outlines the methodogies of SPC and then steps through a case study of
the implementation into an SMT line. Hope this was of some help,
-----Original Message-----
From: <Dan Cavaliere> [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Saturday, 6 October 2001 01:02
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] SPC @ WAVE SOLDER
I would also like to hear of other areas in the through-hole and SMT process
of SPC data that others are
collecting.
Thanks
"Rougeux, Scott" <[log in to unmask]>
Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
10/04/01 10:02 AM
Please respond to "TechNet E-Mail Forum."
To: [log in to unmask]
cc:
Subject: [TN] SPC @ WAVE SOLDER
In regards to SPC at wavesolder. I would just like to here from some of the
people in this forum on what type of data they are collecting or sampling.
Any info is beneficial. Thanks.
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<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D630251719-07102001>Dan,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D630251719-07102001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D630251719-07102001>William Messina from "Data Sleuths" wrote a =
good book=20
called "SPC for SMT" which outlines how to implemenet SPC into your =
Surface=20
Mount Lines. The book outlines the methodogies of SPC and then =
steps=20
through a case study of the implementation into an SMT line. Hope =
this was=20
of some help,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D630251719-07102001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D630251719-07102001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV align=3Dleft class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> <Dan =
Cavaliere>=20
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, 6 October =
2001=20
01:02<BR><B>To:</B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [TN] SPC @ =
WAVE=20
SOLDER<BR><BR></DIV></FONT><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2>I =
would also like=20
to hear of other areas in the through-hole and SMT process of SPC =
data that=20
others are</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif =
size=3D2>collecting.</FONT>=20
<BR><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2>Thanks</FONT> =
<BR><BR><BR><BR>
<TABLE width=3D"100%">
<TBODY>
<TR vAlign=3Dtop>
<TD>
<TD><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1><B>"Rougeux, Scott"=20
<[log in to unmask]></B></FONT> <BR><FONT =
face=3Dsans-serif=20
size=3D1>Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]></FONT>=20
<P><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>10/04/01 10:02 AM</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>Please respond to "TechNet E-Mail =
Forum."</FONT>=20
<BR></P>
<TD><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1> =
</FONT><BR><FONT=20
face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1> To: =
=20
[log in to unmask]</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif =
size=3D1> cc: =20
</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1> =
=20
Subject: [TN] SPC @ WAVE=20
SOLDER</FONT></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><BR><FONT face=3D"Courier =
New" size=3D2>In=20
regards to SPC at wavesolder. I would just like to here from some of=20
the<BR>people in this forum on what type of data they are collecting =
or=20
sampling.<BR>Any info is beneficial.=20
=
Thanks.<BR><BR>---------------------------------------------------------=
------------------------<BR>Technet=20
Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d<BR>To =
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in<BR>the=20
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of Technet send the following message: SET Technet NOMAIL<BR>Search =
previous=20
postings at: www.ipc.org > On-Line Resources & Databases > =
E-mail=20
Archives<BR>Please visit IPC web site =
(http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm) for=20
additional<BR>information, or contact Keach Sasamori at =
[log in to unmask] or=20
847-509-9700=20
=
ext.5315<BR>------------------------------------------------------------=
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Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 07:41:18 +0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Jonathan A Noquil <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Solder Ball Oxidation in BGA
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Was the oxidation in BGA solder ball occurred during sawing? Was it due to
the
water, moisture? How can we prevent it, water is part of the sawing process
?
Any ideas ?
thanks and God Bless
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Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 20:45:34 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Don Vischulis <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Copper migration
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Mike
I agree with Earl. The answer depends upon your frame of reference. The
basis metal is copper. The solder at an infinite distance from the
solder/copper interface is pure solder of whatever alloy you're using. In
between, you have two intermetallic compounds (IMC) composed of tin and
copper (off hand I forget the two compositions). This implies that there
might be a lead rich layer adjacent to the IMC. The question is where and
how you are going to sample for your analysis. The entire sampling process
should be evaluated to verify that there is no bias in the sample. If you
catch my line of reasoning, the sampling techinique, analysis method, and
reporting method will affect the reproted results. A small sample diameter
will have variable results depanding on where it's aimed, and a large sample
diameter will have entirely different results.
Regards,
Don Vischulis
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Earl Moon
Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 1:58 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Copper migration
Mike,
Part of the answer to your question lies in the following:
This ?metal? layer can be a very high tin concentration on the solder side
and a very high copper concentration on the other side - meaning the base
metal side. In the case of PCB's, this mostly means copper.
Whether copper extends, or can do so, above the IMC layer, I cannot answer
but I believe it should not. How much is too much has always been a question
needing an answer. I think solder joint experts as Werner, and other
soldering and solderability experts, should have this answer to your
important question.
Earl
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Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 09:23:40 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Neil Atkinson <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Leaky Capacitors
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I have seen this in the past and you must be very careful during
de-panellising PCBs as well.
We banned 'v' scoring of FR4 surface mount PCBs because of the risk of
cracking surface mount capacitors. The time to failure can be anything from
hours to months depending on environment - temperature, moisture etc.
I have another question - has anybody out there seen chip capacitors fail
open circuit when operated in a circuit which runs quite hot?
Can the end caps become loose through temperature cycling causing the
capacitors to go open circuit at elevated temperatures?
Neil
-----Original Message-----
From: KK Chin [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 05 October 2001 17:15
Subject: Re: Leaky Capacitors
We has banned manual soldering for leadless chip capacitors. Years ago we
experienced exactly the same problem. Microsectioning revealed that cracks
are
formed across several layers of the interleaved electrodes. Even bigger
problem
was that the cracked capacitor would not be detected in the initial test.
After
operating for a while, metal migrated across the crack and shorted the
layers.
We glad the problem was caught in burn-in rather than in the field. The
shorted
capacitor burnt some of our assemblies badly.
Manual soldering was not the only cause of capacitor cracking. AVX and Kemet
published some articles about precautions in design and assembly processes.
K.K. Chin
Artesyn Technologies,
Fremont, CA
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Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 09:56:09 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Neil Atkinson <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Lead Free Infos
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
There is a good publication published by the Department of Trade and
Industry in the UK in association with the National Physics Laboratory and
the Tin Research Institute, I think it's available on the NPL website.
Check out the National Physics Laboratory Web Site:
http://www.npl.co.uk/npl/ei/iag/leadfree/
which has all alloy properties etc listed.
You could also check out the ITRI website at http://www.itri.co.uk/index.htm
Regards,
Neil
-----Original Message-----
From: Jonathan A Noquil [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 06 October 2001 05:51
Subject: Lead Free Infos
Hello Guys,
Where can i find lead free informations?
Are there any forums regarding lead free for semiconductors?
Particularly in Power Devices?
Hard to think that most lead free alloys had liquidus temps lower than
240-250 C and
JEDEC standard reflow peak temp is 260 C. This will re-melt our joints. Any
ideas?
Thanks and God Bless
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Although this message has been scanned by MailMarshall for known viruses and
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Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 10:08:01 +0100
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Andrew Hoggan <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Solder Ball Oxidation in BGA
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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Use oil instead of water, your supplier of your sectioning equipment should
be able to sort you out otherwise change your supplier.
Best regards,
Andrew Hoggan
BBA Associates Ltd
www.bba-associates.com
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Jonathan A Noquil
Sent: 08 October 2001 00:41
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Solder Ball Oxidation in BGA
Was the oxidation in BGA solder ball occurred during sawing? Was it due to
the
water, moisture? How can we prevent it, water is part of the sawing process
?
Any ideas ?
thanks and God Bless
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Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 10:11:17 +0100
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Andrew Hoggan <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Copper migration
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Can one of the metallurgists correct me?
I am under the impression that without the intermetallic layer there is no
joint. The intermetallic layer is what forms the joint albeit the
distribution, thickness and efficiency of the layer changes with time and
temperature.
Best regards,
Andrew Hoggan
BBA Associates Ltd
www.bba-associates.com
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Don Vischulis
Sent: 08 October 2001 02:46
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Copper migration
Mike
I agree with Earl. The answer depends upon your frame of reference. The
basis metal is copper. The solder at an infinite distance from the
solder/copper interface is pure solder of whatever alloy you're using. In
between, you have two intermetallic compounds (IMC) composed of tin and
copper (off hand I forget the two compositions). This implies that there
might be a lead rich layer adjacent to the IMC. The question is where and
how you are going to sample for your analysis. The entire sampling process
should be evaluated to verify that there is no bias in the sample. If you
catch my line of reasoning, the sampling techinique, analysis method, and
reporting method will affect the reproted results. A small sample diameter
will have variable results depanding on where it's aimed, and a large sample
diameter will have entirely different results.
Regards,
Don Vischulis
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Earl Moon
Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 1:58 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Copper migration
Mike,
Part of the answer to your question lies in the following:
This ?metal? layer can be a very high tin concentration on the solder side
and a very high copper concentration on the other side - meaning the base
metal side. In the case of PCB's, this mostly means copper.
Whether copper extends, or can do so, above the IMC layer, I cannot answer
but I believe it should not. How much is too much has always been a question
needing an answer. I think solder joint experts as Werner, and other
soldering and solderability experts, should have this answer to your
important question.
Earl
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Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 08:03:42 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: bbarr <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Leaky Capacitors
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Neil,
I am curious about your reply because I am looking at v-score as a means to
panelize some boards. How were you separating the boards? I can see problems
if the boards were being broken apart by hand, but were you using a cab or
FKN type of separator amd getting failures?
Thanks.
Bob
Robert Barr
Manufacturing Engineering
Formation, Inc.
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Neil Atkinson
Sent: Monday, October 08, 2001 4:24 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Leaky Capacitors
I have seen this in the past and you must be very careful during
de-panellising PCBs as well.
We banned 'v' scoring of FR4 surface mount PCBs because of the risk of
cracking surface mount capacitors. The time to failure can be anything from
hours to months depending on environment - temperature, moisture etc.
I have another question - has anybody out there seen chip capacitors fail
open circuit when operated in a circuit which runs quite hot?
Can the end caps become loose through temperature cycling causing the
capacitors to go open circuit at elevated temperatures?
Neil
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Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 07:44:18 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: William Raymond <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Hot and cold cycle on BGA's at test and repair...
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Hello all...
I=92m in need of some opinions. Our test and repair department (functional
test) uses a cold spray (from a can) and hot air guns (heat-shrink heat
guns) to heat and cool BGA devices (plus other IC devices like QFP=92s, etc)=
to help diagnose boards that fail functional test. I=92m trying to make the=
point that this practice is very risky, especially to BGA type devices
because of the severe stress applied to the solder ball connections. The
application of cold spray and/or hot air from a hand held heat gun are both
VERY uncontrolled processes and should be eliminated from our procedures.
Would anyone out there be willing to share their views and/or experiences
with this?
Thanks in advance, Bill
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Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 09:19:24 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Bev Christian <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Poor wetting on solder joints
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Or how about "great" wetting that is in actuality really poor wetting?!
Alloy42 with stamping oil on it, covered with a solder finish by the
supplier, used in production, a unit then dropped and then the real truth
evident!
Bev Christian
Research in Motion
-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Caswell [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: October 6, 2001 2:54 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Poor wetting on solder joints
Wow, how long an answer do you want? saw Steve' reply and agree that
"poor wetting" is sometimes a perception rather than reality. In
addition to what Steve described I have had several other "poor wetting"
issues that took considerable explanation to quality. A tapered lead
that has a large shoulder may have solder suddenly stop because of the
rapid heat dissipation at the larger area. This was being rejected
untill I could finally convince QA. of what was happening. Give us some
more info and I am sure you will get several relevant replies.
Charles Caswell
Process Lead, PCB
Frontier Electronic Systems
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet E-Mail Forum. [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2001 8:59 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Poor wetting on solder joints
What could be the cause of poor wetting on solder joints and how we can
solve it?
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Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 08:19:18 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Hot and cold cycle on BGA's at test and repair...
Uncontrolled sure jumps out - doesn't it. For starters, get a copy of
MIL-STD-883E and enjoy. HALT or HAST testing is what you want to determine
initial quality and long term reliability. The STD talks this talk and
provides all possible test and analysis requirements, in a controlled
environment, to do the job. Other procedures, standards, and specifications
are available concerning FAA, NASA, medical, and others possibly more
pertinent to your requirements.
MoonMan
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Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 07:29:46 -0300
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: John Maxwell <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Leaky Capacitors
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask] .uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Neil,
Depending on how the glass frit in the termination thick film paste was
fired to the ceramic body you can see end caps come loose. Usually when
this occurs there will be a slight discoloration on the capacitor body
where glass diffusion had started but not completed the process resulting
in a very weak bond between termination and ceramic body. This is typical
of some larger case sizes (1206 and up) but I have seen some hints on 0805
sized chips also.
When I was a consultant I loved soldering irons and V scoring, they put my
wife and oldest son through university along with making the house payment.
John
At 09:23 AM 10/8/01 +0100, you wrote:
>I have seen this in the past and you must be very careful during
>de-panellising PCBs as well.
>
>We banned 'v' scoring of FR4 surface mount PCBs because of the risk of
>cracking surface mount capacitors. The time to failure can be anything from
>hours to months depending on environment - temperature, moisture etc.
>
>I have another question - has anybody out there seen chip capacitors fail
>open circuit when operated in a circuit which runs quite hot?
>
>Can the end caps become loose through temperature cycling causing the
>capacitors to go open circuit at elevated temperatures?
>
>Neil
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: KK Chin [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>Sent: 05 October 2001 17:15
>Subject: Re: Leaky Capacitors
>
>
>We has banned manual soldering for leadless chip capacitors. Years ago we
>experienced exactly the same problem. Microsectioning revealed that cracks
>are
>formed across several layers of the interleaved electrodes. Even bigger
>problem
>was that the cracked capacitor would not be detected in the initial test.
>After
>operating for a while, metal migrated across the crack and shorted the
>layers.
>We glad the problem was caught in burn-in rather than in the field. The
>shorted
>capacitor burnt some of our assemblies badly.
>
>Manual soldering was not the only cause of capacitor cracking. AVX and Kemet
>published some articles about precautions in design and assembly processes.
>
>K.K. Chin
>Artesyn Technologies,
>Fremont, CA
>
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Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 08:35:04 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Copper migration
Obviously, I'm unworthy and incompetent (dangerous) as a metallurgist. Just
hang around them too much. Also obvious, I have way too much time on my
hands before starting my new contract (DFM and safety engineer for munitions
and fuse making company - eehaw!). Safety in a bomb factory? Sure looking
forward to this one.
According to the new world soldering technology and technologists,
intermetallics must form for a solder joint to be effected. This revelation
has occurred over the past twenty or so years. Before that, Manko dictated
that solder joints may be formed by joing to metal surfaces with a solder
medium without requiring diffusion or intermetallic formation. I rather
still like this as I work with surface scientists from time to time.
Surface scientists regard a surface as being an objects area having no
depth. At the same time, to analyze surface defects or quality conformity,
they do not regard a surface as having been reached until a specified number
of angstroms has been probed. An angstrom is a unit of length equal to
one-ten-millionth of a millimeter, used for atomic measurements and
wavelengths. I like what they say concerning intermetallic formations never
reaching "depth" though, when they do, IMC thickness may be too much to
promote reliable solder joints.
What Manko was describing, I believe, was a condition wherein atomic
mono-layers comprised the surface and that the solder "wetting" process was
a function of not reaching farther than a surface scientist's definition of
it. I just pose this to get a little something shaking during such trying
times made up of much boredom punctuated with shear terror for some in times
of terrible proportions.
Earl
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Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 15:09:32 +0100
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Andrew Hoggan <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Poor wetting on solder joints
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Alloy42 requires higher reflow temps and longer time at the higher temp to
allow the dissolution of the alloy into the soldering alloy. I've seen 'poor
wetted' joints with Alloy42, where the wetting has been excellent, great
flux, great reflow, soldered right up the elbow, but no joint of any
integrity because the temp and time was too low and too short to dissolve
the Alloy42 finish.
Best regards,
Andrew Hoggan
BBA Associates Ltd
www.bba-associates.com
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Bev Christian
Sent: 08 October 2001 14:19
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Poor wetting on solder joints
Or how about "great" wetting that is in actuality really poor wetting?!
Alloy42 with stamping oil on it, covered with a solder finish by the
supplier, used in production, a unit then dropped and then the real truth
evident!
Bev Christian
Research in Motion
-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Caswell [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: October 6, 2001 2:54 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Poor wetting on solder joints
Wow, how long an answer do you want? saw Steve' reply and agree that
"poor wetting" is sometimes a perception rather than reality. In
addition to what Steve described I have had several other "poor wetting"
issues that took considerable explanation to quality. A tapered lead
that has a large shoulder may have solder suddenly stop because of the
rapid heat dissipation at the larger area. This was being rejected
untill I could finally convince QA. of what was happening. Give us some
more info and I am sure you will get several relevant replies.
Charles Caswell
Process Lead, PCB
Frontier Electronic Systems
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet E-Mail Forum. [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2001 8:59 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Poor wetting on solder joints
What could be the cause of poor wetting on solder joints and how we can
solve it?
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Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 10:21:02 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Shoda, Steve" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Poor wetting on solder joints
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain
To Marichu's defense, he has asked the question to the limit of the
available defect description. To the other replies, you are correct in
asking for more information to answer the question.
Perhaps categorizing poor wetting/insufficient solder/dewetting/non-wetting
in more causal descriptive terms would be useful. It is the difference
between describing a symptom vs. describing a cause. How and when is
performance affected by these characteristics? Does it vary by circuit
application? In other words when are they no longer cosmetic defects?
In terms of inspection performance, the yield of attempting to screen out
any of these characteristics is poor. It is also futile to measure if
action on controlling solder process inputs is not taken. If you have
reached the performance limit of the solder process and the defects are
still present - how can the affect on product be assessed?
Steve Shoda
BAE SYSTEMS Controls
-----Original Message-----
From: Marichu S. Amalin [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 7:59 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Poor wetting on solder joints
What could be the cause of poor wetting on solder joints and how we can
solve it?
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Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 07:57:27 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Darrel Therriault <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: INCEP Technologies, Inc.
Subject: Re: Hot and cold cycle on BGA's at test and repair...
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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William,
As an old test engineer, I used to use cold spray (freeze mist) to try and verify a component
was defective that seemed to be running hot compared to other components temperature at the
same ref des. It was usually a focused blast of freeze mist, not a continuous stream and then
only if a component seemed to be functioning and would blow up after some run time and seemed
to be hotter to the touch then other components at that location. I didn't use freeze mist to
emulate thermal shock by blasting away at a component and certainly not a BGA contact area.
I didn't use heat guns because they are pretty uncontrolled as you state and even if you stuck
thermal couples on tops of the packages, it still is pretty uncontrolled and even if you have
fixtures to focus the heat on the component in question, it still seems like a potential risk
to the other components reliability so why take it. I have seen people heat up BGAs to see if
opens start to make contact, which probably says you then need to replace or reflow a certain
BGA, but again, the risk to the reliability of other components can present a bigger problem
with component/assy MTBF.
In general, get your test coverage high through good DFM/DFT design and layout and you won't
have to be so creative with heat guns and cold spray.
DT
William Raymond wrote:
> Hello all...
>
> I’m in need of some opinions. Our test and repair department (functional
> test) uses a cold spray (from a can) and hot air guns (heat-shrink heat
> guns) to heat and cool BGA devices (plus other IC devices like QFP’s, etc)
> to help diagnose boards that fail functional test. I’m trying to make the
> point that this practice is very risky, especially to BGA type devices
> because of the severe stress applied to the solder ball connections. The
> application of cold spray and/or hot air from a hand held heat gun are both
> VERY uncontrolled processes and should be eliminated from our procedures.
> Would anyone out there be willing to share their views and/or experiences
> with this?
>
> Thanks in advance, Bill
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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--
Darrel Therriault
VP, Mfg. Operations
INCEP Technologies, Inc
(858)547-9925 223
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Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 11:07:19 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Werner Engelmaier <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Poor wetting/Cu migration
X-To: [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask]
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hi All,
Well, we sure got a mish-mush of opinions ouit there.
I have written on the subject, most recently in the August 2001 issue of=20
Global SMT & Packaging magazine and the February 1997 of Circuits Assembly=20
magazine.=20
Surface scientists do NOT regard a surface as having no depth; quite the=20
contrary. A surface from the surface science point of view is at least a=20
number of atomic layers (not a mono-layer) thick; in fact, the crystal=20
arientation and atomic lattice structure at the surface will determine=20
surface characteristics, such as work function, surface tension, etc.
Solder wetting [an unfortunate choice of a word if there ever was one] does=20
not just include the 'wetting' of the surface in the saponifier sense, but=20
also the disolution of base metal atoms into a solder component, typically=20
tin. For copper that means the formation of Cu3Sn (near Cu) and Cu6Sn5. IMC=
s=20
are brittle, do not unlike the solder creep, and have melting temperatures=20
higher than their constituents. With the exception of IMCs of Au/Sn (AuSn,=20
AuSn3, AuSn4) and Ag/Sn (Ag3Sn), IMCs are much stronger than the solder. Th=
e=20
Au/Sn and Ag/Sn IMCs are weak and brittle; the former causes what is referre=
d=20
to as =E2=80=98gold embrittlement=E2=80=99. The problem with too mch IMC for=
mation is=20
primarily that the Sn is consumed from the solder volume immediately adjacen=
t=20
to the Cu leaving a Pb-rich region--this is where cracks form when they occu=
r=20
near the interface, not in the IMC layers.
The reason why soldering to Alloy 42 or nickel requires more heat [higher=20
temperatures/ longer times] follows from the different dissolution rates of=20
the various metals. To illustrate the point, the relative dissolution rates=20
in Sn, pegging Sn in itself at 100 mm/s at 230=C2=B0C, are: 100 Sn: 2.5 Au:=20=
0.85=20
Ag: 0.085 Cu: 0.0021 Ni [Ref.: Klein Wassink, Soldering in Electronics]. =20
I sure have seen a lot of solder joint faillures because IMCs never formed=20
[no wetting], but not a one because of too much IMC. So I do not agree that=20
IMCs should be as thin as possible; I certainly have no problem replacing=20
HASL with OSP; ENIG is a different story--I see too many people having=20
problems. Of course, if the HASL process is not well controlled, there are=20
likely to be problems--but that goes for any other uncontrolled process. I=20
certainly can put OSP onto a non-solderable Cu surface; and boy can i screw=20
up ENIG.
Werner Engelmaier
Engelmaier Associates, L.C.
Electronic Packaging, Interconnection and Reliability Consulting
7 Jasmine Run
Ormond Beach, FL 32174 USA
Phone: 386-437-8747, Fax: 386-437-8737
E-mail: [log in to unmask], Website: www.engelmaier.com=20
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Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 11:17:28 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Bill Raymond <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Hot and cold cycle on BGA's at test and repair...
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Thanks Darrel for your thoughts... as an added note, the test group only
uses this method to help isolate faults, not as any part of some thermal
shock type of test. These "faults" usually being of the intermittent
variety. I am simply worried that the method of freeze mist/hot air gun
fault isolation is only needlessly stress solder joints (especially the BGA
joints) and that we should find another method to isolate there
intermittent board faults.
Bill...
At 07:57 AM 10/08/2001 -0700, you wrote:
>William,
>
>As an old test engineer, I used to use cold spray (freeze mist) to try and
>verify a component
>was defective that seemed to be running hot compared to other components
>temperature at the
>same ref des. It was usually a focused blast of freeze mist, not a
>continuous stream and then
>only if a component seemed to be functioning and would blow up after some
>run time and seemed
>to be hotter to the touch then other components at that location. I
>didn't use freeze mist to
>emulate thermal shock by blasting away at a component and certainly not a
>BGA contact area.
>
>I didn't use heat guns because they are pretty uncontrolled as you state
>and even if you stuck
>thermal couples on tops of the packages, it still is pretty uncontrolled
>and even if you have
>fixtures to focus the heat on the component in question, it still seems
>like a potential risk
>to the other components reliability so why take it. I have seen people
>heat up BGAs to see if
>opens start to make contact, which probably says you then need to replace
>or reflow a certain
>BGA, but again, the risk to the reliability of other components can
>present a bigger problem
>with component/assy MTBF.
>
>In general, get your test coverage high through good DFM/DFT design and
>layout and you won't
>have to be so creative with heat guns and cold spray.
>
>DT
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Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 16:39:32 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Neil Atkinson <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Poor wetting on solder joints
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I think the answer to this one is 42!
Now we need to find out what the question is!!
Seriously though - can you describe what you are seeing more explicitly or
send some photos to Steve for him to post on his web site.
Neil
-----Original Message-----
From: Marichu S. Amalin [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 05 October 2001 01:59
Subject: Poor wetting on solder joints
What could be the cause of poor wetting on solder joints and how we can
solve it?
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Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 11:40:06 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
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From: Bill Davis <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: IC Storage
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Hello all, Does any one have any good suggestions for storing tubed smt ic's? I would like to stay away from the cardboard type storage units.
Thanks in advance.
Bill Davis.
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Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 08:48:29 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: David Douthit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Hot and cold cycle on BGA's at test and repair...
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Bill,
If you are trying to duplicate a "temperature sensitive problem" then cold spray and heat
guns will only work because they amplify stress until the failure becomes easy to detect.
Unfortunately this can be a lengthy and harmful process. The best way to troubleshoot these
issues is to recreate the thermal profile at the time of failure and gently "bump" or move
the temperature around this point. I have found this process able to capture 90% of the
thermal related failures on the first attempt.
There is a device (that was called an X-Air) which is a hand held vortex generator. It
connects to 100psi clean (no oil and dust free) shop air and puts -40 degrees C out of
one end and hot air out the other. The temperature could be controlled by how far the nozzle
was from the target. The other advantage was there was an endless supply (at
virtually no cost) of cold and hot air for testing.
This process requires a little patience because the rate of temperature change is very slow
in polymers. The failures will occur within 20 degrees C of the original temperature.
David A. Douthit
Manager
LoCan LLC
William Raymond wrote:
> Hello all...
>
> I’m in need of some opinions. Our test and repair department (functional
> test) uses a cold spray (from a can) and hot air guns (heat-shrink heat
> guns) to heat and cool BGA devices (plus other IC devices like QFP’s, etc)
> to help diagnose boards that fail functional test. I’m trying to make the
> point that this practice is very risky, especially to BGA type devices
> because of the severe stress applied to the solder ball connections. The
> application of cold spray and/or hot air from a hand held heat gun are both
> VERY uncontrolled processes and should be eliminated from our procedures.
> Would anyone out there be willing to share their views and/or experiences
> with this?
>
> Thanks in advance, Bill
>
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Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 16:50:04 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Neil Atkinson <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Hot and cold cycle on BGA's at test and repair...
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Sounds like a really bad idea and in 'finding faults' they could also be
creating a few.
It reminds me of watching a man looking for gas pipes underground by
hammering a steel crowbar into the ground... he found he was very lucky and
sometimes found the gas leak just where he was looking!!
Neil
-----Original Message-----
From: William Raymond [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 08 October 2001 13:44
Subject: Hot and cold cycle on BGA's at test and repair...
Hello all...
I'm in need of some opinions. Our test and repair department (functional
test) uses a cold spray (from a can) and hot air guns (heat-shrink heat
guns) to heat and cool BGA devices (plus other IC devices like QFP's, etc)
to help diagnose boards that fail functional test. I'm trying to make the
point that this practice is very risky, especially to BGA type devices
because of the severe stress applied to the solder ball connections. The
application of cold spray and/or hot air from a hand held heat gun are both
VERY uncontrolled processes and should be eliminated from our procedures.
Would anyone out there be willing to share their views and/or experiences
with this?
Thanks in advance, Bill
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Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 10:49:06 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Poor wetting/Cu migration
My sincere thanks Werner.
Finally, I got all I wanted out of this as my dull solder joint world shines
more brightly now. However, there remains "experts" out there who do not
respect opinions, or "facts," concerning the affects of thick or thin IMC's.
My last question on the subject is how thick is too thick or thin - and, if
this is a valid question, what should be expected over the course of HASL,
wave, reflow, hand, and rework soldering?
Thanks again,
Earl Moon
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Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 10:52:08 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Sanjay <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: # of rework cycle for SMT gullwing component
Can anyone address the maximum # of cycles that would be allowed to rework
SMT connectors (or other SMT gullwing components before it is considered
tobe a risk ? What IPC standard be used?
Thanks for your help
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Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 12:39:39 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: John Brewer <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Leaky Capacitors
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I'd be cautious about v-groove or "Pizza cutter" depanelizations if
you've got any large-ish ceramic caps (> 0805) particularly if
the components are near the shear points. Routing would be
preferable.
Also, I'd be cautions about the same parts near any high insertion/
withdraw force connectors, or sockets, for the same reason (flexure
induced cracking of ceramic chip devices).
Good luck! The one good thing is you've had the experience of
thousands of component and manufacturing/assembly engineers
before you, who have all wrestled with this at least once in their
careers! :-)
Let us know how it works out...
John
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Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 17:40:10 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Eric Dawson <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: IC Storage
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Bill,
If you can persuade your Materials Department that tubed devices should be
stored next to the placement line and use the MRP system to log the usage,
then keep them in a shallow metal drawer system, suitably grounded.
They are then ready for instant use, the Stores does not have to double
handle them when kitting and the components are in a static safe
environment. This last point is important because the 'antistatic' tubes are
not static protective. The 'antistatic' only means that the tube material
does not generate static itself.
Hope this helps
Regards
Eric Dawson
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bill Davis [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Monday, October 08, 2001 4:40 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] IC Storage
>
> Hello all, Does any one have any good suggestions for storing tubed smt
> ic's? I would like to stay away from the cardboard type storage units.
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Bill Davis.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 11:54:20 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Paul Signorelli <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Hot and cold cycle on BGA's at test and repair...
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Bill,
The Thermal Shock of freeze mist can stimulate or cause a crack of a =
marginal BGA ball but
the main concern i would have is that the Freeze Mist will cause water to =
condense out
of the atmosphere. The condensed water will create an electrolyte and, =
assuming you
are doing this with the power on the board, you will grow dendrites under =
the BGA and this will cause shorts on high Z lines. This will cause =
masking of the original defect.
Any 'power on' cold temperature testing that causes the board to go =
through the dew point should be avoided.
See IPC-TR-476, Sandia Labs Report SAND 75-0616, Aerospace Report =
TOR-0075, NASA CR-61194, MSFC Alert MSFC-68-8, GSFC Failure analysis =
FAR10-012 and 1160,
for additional info on the hazards of electrochemical migration and =
dendritic growth on PCBA's.
Paul Signorelli
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Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 10:40:12 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Timothy Reeves <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Copper migration
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Even at an "infinite" distance (say, 1 mil), 0.3% copper is allowed (and
some is to be expected) in 63/37 tin-lead solder.
Tim Reeves
-----Original Message-----
From: Don Vischulis [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 6:46 PM
Subject: Re: Copper migration
Mike
I agree with Earl. The answer depends upon your frame of reference. The
basis metal is copper. The solder at an infinite distance from the
solder/copper interface is pure solder of whatever alloy you're using. In
between, you have two intermetallic compounds (IMC) composed of tin and
copper (off hand I forget the two compositions). This implies that there
might be a lead rich layer adjacent to the IMC. The question is where and
how you are going to sample for your analysis. The entire sampling process
should be evaluated to verify that there is no bias in the sample. If you
catch my line of reasoning, the sampling techinique, analysis method, and
reporting method will affect the reproted results. A small sample diameter
will have variable results depanding on where it's aimed, and a large sample
diameter will have entirely different results.
Regards,
Don Vischulis
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Earl Moon
Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 1:58 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Copper migration
Mike,
Part of the answer to your question lies in the following:
This ?metal? layer can be a very high tin concentration on the solder side
and a very high copper concentration on the other side - meaning the base
metal side. In the case of PCB's, this mostly means copper.
Whether copper extends, or can do so, above the IMC layer, I cannot answer
but I believe it should not. How much is too much has always been a question
needing an answer. I think solder joint experts as Werner, and other
soldering and solderability experts, should have this answer to your
important question.
Earl
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Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 13:52:21 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Phil Hinton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: IMC's
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="part1_f3.1041aad0.28f341d5_boundary"
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Being metallurgist and having worked with the intermetallics (IMCs) formed by
soldering or solid state diffusion for many years. I may add some
experimental information on the subject.
As mentioned in previous e-mail, a solder joint can be formed by rubbing
(ultrasonic) a solder coated lead against freshly cleaned copper. In my
tests these joints were roughly 1/3 the peel strength of a similar fusion
formed solder joint. After thermal treatment between 80 and 100C and 130 to
150C these joints formed the normal CuSn intemetallics and improved in
strength, but were not up to the same value as the fusion joint. Analysis
indicated that more copper surface area reacted when the joint was formed by
fusion.
As mentioned the solder joint depends on the formation of the IMCs to produce
wetting, but that the it mayb be that the thicker the intermetallic the worse
the joint. When using very "high purity" copper and tin/lead solder for the
joint the peel strength remained roughly the same after long or short
immersion times in the molten solder such as HASL and while the copper
thickness decreased, IMC thickness remain nearly constant, and the ratio of
the two intermetallic layers remained the same. (i.e. If left in the HASL
over lunch the intermetallic remained the same thickness but all of the
copper was dissolved). In solid state growth (150C for 4 hours to 192 hours)
the intermetallic grew following the square root of time formula for about 48
hours until the residual lead layer appeared to inhibit diffusion of the
copper into the solder. I tried this with molten pure tin and the square root
of time held.
The thickness of the intermetallic formed by thermal aging had little effect
on the peel strength until the intermetallic thickness reached above 25
microns (0.001 inch). Then the lead rich layer appeared to be a major the
contributor, it formed large lead crystals the fractured easily along grain
boundaries.
Failures by brittle fracture at the intermetallic layer were produced by
shorter term thermal aging and thinner (2-5 microns [0.000080-0.0002 inch])
by dosing a copper plating bath with specific amounts of organic plating
additives, brighteners etc. The higher the additive content of the bath the
thinner the IMC had to be before the fracture occurred. This additive
content and early fracture phenomena occurred with pyro copper, fluoroborate
copper and sulfuric acid copper with pyro and fluoroborate copper being the
worse. GE and Raytheon in articles published in the 1970's found similar
results, wherein surface mounted components were popping off after final bake
or burn-in of the finished assembly.
In tests run with copper foil in which the foil was solder dipped, then
thermally aged and rolled on a 1/4 inch mandrel, the intermetallic layer had
slightly more vertical cracking as the layer got thicker, but separation of
the copper to solder at the IMC layer was not seen on pure copper foils. For
plated copper foil made with different additive amounts in the plating bath
the separation was concentration related. A further note, when a copper
plating solution had been used extensively with little care or or
purification, the increase in separation was greatly increased. Analysis of
the separated/fractured surface of the sample that was plated using high
additive plating solution showed an increased amount of Sulfur and Carbon.
Theory proposed was that when the organic concentration in the copper plating
reached an amount, the copper left behind a debris layer as it diffused into
the solder to form the intermetallic and the .sparation/fracture occurred
along the debris layer. Kirkendall voids were probably not a factor as the
pure copper samples did not exhibit the separation.
Phil Hinton.
--part1_f3.1041aad0.28f341d5_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>Being metallurgist and having worked with the intermetallics (IMCs) formed by soldering or solid state diffusion for many years. I may add some experimental information on the subject.
<BR>
<BR>As mentioned in previous e-mail, a solder joint can be formed by rubbing (ultrasonic) a solder coated lead against freshly cleaned copper. In my tests these joints were roughly 1/3 the peel strength of a similar fusion formed solder joint. After thermal treatment between 80 and 100C and 130 to 150C these joints formed the normal CuSn intemetallics and improved in strength, but were not up to the same value as the fusion joint. Analysis indicated that more copper surface area reacted when the joint was formed by fusion.
<BR>
<BR>As mentioned the solder joint depends on the formation of the IMCs to produce wetting, but that the it mayb be that the thicker the intermetallic the worse the joint. When using very "high purity" copper and tin/lead solder for the joint the peel strength remained roughly the same after long or short immersion times in the molten solder such as HASL and while the copper thickness decreased, IMC thickness remain nearly constant, and the ratio of the two intermetallic layers remained the same. (i.e. If left in the HASL over lunch the intermetallic remained the same thickness but all of the copper was dissolved). In solid state growth (150C for 4 hours to 192 hours) the intermetallic grew following the square root of time formula for about 48 hours until the residual lead layer appeared to inhibit diffusion of the copper into the solder. I tried this with molten pure tin and the square root of time held.
<BR>
<BR>The thickness of the intermetallic formed by thermal aging had little effect on the peel strength until the intermetallic thickness reached above 25 microns (0.001 inch). Then the lead rich layer appeared to be a major the contributor, it formed large lead crystals the fractured easily along grain boundaries.
<BR>
<BR>Failures by brittle fracture at the intermetallic layer were produced by shorter term thermal aging and thinner (2-5 microns [0.000080-0.0002 inch]) by dosing a copper plating bath with specific amounts of organic plating additives, brighteners etc. The higher the additive content of the bath the thinner the IMC had to be before the fracture occurred. This additive content and early fracture phenomena occurred with pyro copper, fluoroborate copper and sulfuric acid copper with pyro and fluoroborate copper being the worse. GE and Raytheon in articles published in the 1970's found similar results, wherein surface mounted components were popping off after final bake or burn-in of the finished assembly.
<BR>
<BR>In tests run with copper foil in which the foil was solder dipped, then thermally aged and rolled on a 1/4 inch mandrel, the intermetallic layer had slightly more vertical cracking as the layer got thicker, but separation of the copper to solder at the IMC layer was not seen on pure copper foils. For plated copper foil made with different additive amounts in the plating bath the separation was concentration related. A further note, when a copper plating solution had been used extensively with little care or or purification, the increase in separation was greatly increased. Analysis of the separated/fractured surface of the sample that was plated using high additive plating solution showed an increased amount of Sulfur and Carbon. Theory proposed was that when the organic concentration in the copper plating reached an amount, the copper left behind a debris layer as it diffused into the solder to form the intermetallic and the .sparation/fracture o!
ccurred along the debris layer. Kirkendall voids were probably not a factor as the pure copper samples did not exhibit the separation.
<BR>
<BR>Phil Hinton. </FONT></HTML>
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Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 13:51:14 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Copper migration
Tim,
In accordance with what, please?
Earl
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Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 09:11:02 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Marsico, James" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Hot and cold cycle on BGA's at test and repair...
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hi Bill,
All these test guys are the same. I think they issue a heat gun and a can
of cold spray when they leave school! They were doing exactly the same
thing at out facility, until we found out and complained. Now they claim
that they don't use this procedure anymore. I'll bet you can still find
them in somebody's draw, though.
Jim Marsico
Senior Engineer
Production Engineering
EDO Electronics Systems Group
[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
631-595-5879
-----Original Message-----
From: William Raymond [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, October 08, 2001 8:44 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Hot and cold cycle on BGA's at test and
repair...
Hello all...
I'm in need of some opinions. Our test and repair department
(functional
test) uses a cold spray (from a can) and hot air guns (heat-shrink
heat
guns) to heat and cool BGA devices (plus other IC devices like
QFP's, etc)
to help diagnose boards that fail functional test. I'm trying to
make the
point that this practice is very risky, especially to BGA type
devices
because of the severe stress applied to the solder ball connections.
The
application of cold spray and/or hot air from a hand held heat gun
are both
VERY uncontrolled processes and should be eliminated from our
procedures.
Would anyone out there be willing to share their views and/or
experiences
with this?
Thanks in advance, Bill
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Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 13:53:38 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: # of rework cycle for SMT gullwing component
For fine pitch and BGA, HP and Celestica used to allow two cycles for HASL
(ring a ding) and three for OSP and ENIG. Why is that?
MoonMan
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Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 13:58:54 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: IMC's
Phil,
So the following is of concern:
:The thickness of the intermetallic formed by thermal aging had little
effect on the peel strength until the intermetallic thickness reached above
25 microns (0.001 inch). Then the lead rich layer appeared to be a major the
contributor, it formed large lead crystals the fractured easily along grain
boundaries."
Is this then a thickness specification not to be exceeded, and how easily
under what conditions did the fracture occur?
Earl
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Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 08:07:53 +1300
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Michael Bell <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: IC Storage
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What are you trying to protect the I/C's from???
If it is a moisture issue, you should probably store them in a low humidity
incubator. These are quite readily avalible and can be promoted as either
an incubator of humidity chamber. The idea is just to maintain a humidity
of 15% or lower (I think) at ambient.
If it is simply a static issue, I tend to agree with Eric.
Cheers
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Davis [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, 9 October 2001 04:40
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] IC Storage
Hello all, Does any one have any good suggestions for storing tubed smt
ic's? I would like to stay away from the cardboard type storage units.
Thanks in advance.
Bill Davis.
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Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 14:24:06 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Hot and cold cycle on BGA's at test and repair...
Shame James,
I've found, over the years, at least four test guys that actually talk to,
or are included in, DFM folks/meetings. Sometimes, it is required that these
people leave their hot/cold tools at home for repairs, or other fun things,
there.
Often, in anti-manufacturing environments (most everywhere), test folks are
encouraged to point fingers at design and manufacturing types while
providing evidence via neandrathal (spelling please - so I know if I am
one). Damn shame James.
MoonMan
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Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 13:02:32 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: David Douthit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Hot and cold cycle on BGA's at test and repair...
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Jim,
I agree with that. This type of testing will not only cause more damage then it "finds" but
it also has a very poor track record for "finding" these intermittent problems. It simply
does not recreate the conditions at the time of failure!
David A. Douthit
Manager
LoCan LLC
"Marsico, James" wrote:
> Hi Bill,
> All these test guys are the same. I think they issue a heat gun and a can
> of cold spray when they leave school! They were doing exactly the same
> thing at out facility, until we found out and complained. Now they claim
> that they don't use this procedure anymore. I'll bet you can still find
> them in somebody's draw, though.
>
> Jim Marsico
> Senior Engineer
> Production Engineering
> EDO Electronics Systems Group
> [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> 631-595-5879
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: William Raymond [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Monday, October 08, 2001 8:44 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] Hot and cold cycle on BGA's at test and
> repair...
>
> Hello all...
>
> I'm in need of some opinions. Our test and repair department
> (functional
> test) uses a cold spray (from a can) and hot air guns (heat-shrink
> heat
> guns) to heat and cool BGA devices (plus other IC devices like
> QFP's, etc)
> to help diagnose boards that fail functional test. I'm trying to
> make the
> point that this practice is very risky, especially to BGA type
> devices
> because of the severe stress applied to the solder ball connections.
> The
> application of cold spray and/or hot air from a hand held heat gun
> are both
> VERY uncontrolled processes and should be eliminated from our
> procedures.
> Would anyone out there be willing to share their views and/or
> experiences
> with this?
>
> Thanks in advance, Bill
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----
> Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV
> 1.8d
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> Databases > E-mail Archives
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> additional
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> 847-509-9700 ext.5315
>
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>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 16:59:37 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Bill Davis <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: IC Storage
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I apologize, I didn't make myself too clear. What I am looking for are some sort of Tube/Rail handlers that I can store my stock of IC's in my warehouse. An example of what I am kind of looking for is the tube/rail handlers made by "Brick Container Corporation", "Contact East" distributes them. I want something similiar to that design but made out of something other then the cardboard material. It needs to be some what space saving but still handle a large variety of tubes. I'm not trying to protect them from anything specific, I just need a place to keep them between runs.
Thanks again.
Bill.
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Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 01:01:02 +0200
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Heinz Mader <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Heinz Mader/NMADEH/CH/Ascom ist außer Haus.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Ich werde ab 08.10.2001 nicht im Büro sein. Ich kehre zurück am
16.10.2001.
Ich werde Ihre Nachricht nach meiner Rückkehr beantworten.
Bei Problemen Hugo Piller oder Bernhard Schaeren
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Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 13:16:00 +0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "<Peter George Duncan>" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: IMC's
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If my understanding is correct, IMC's continue to grow throughout the life
of a board. If we're discussing what is too thick and what is too thin, we
need to look at the stage in the board's life at which the IMC thickness is
being considered and the effect that it's thickness has at that point.
Military boards are intended to last for 15+ years, operating (in theory)
between -40C and +125C. This degree of thermal stressing is going to be a
fertile breeding ground for IMC growth, especially when coupled with
stresses due to vibration. Many "older technology" boards last the distance
still in working condition, so the IMC layer growth can't be a major issue
there.
I know SMT is a lot more fussy and fragile, but are we being more concerned
about IMC's that we need be, apart from ensuring products get through the
warranty period before we make money on repairs or replacements? When is
max IMC thickness achieved (how many 'degree.hours' does it take)? Is IMC
thickness self-limiting in any way, or does the whole solder joint
eventually become a homogenous IMC? How MUCH weaker than the newly-born
solder joint is the senior citizen solder joint? What can we do, if
anything to ensure that the old, fully-matured joints are still strong
enough to do their job? i.e. what homgenous IMC alloy is strong enough as a
solder joint?
Just a (cynical) thought to stoke the fire with.
Regards
Peter Duncan
Earl Moon
<[log in to unmask] To: [log in to unmask]
M.COM> cc: (bcc: DUNCAN Peter/Asst Prin Engr/ST Aero/ST Group)
Sent by: Subject: Re: [TN] IMC's
TechNet
<[log in to unmask]
ORG>
10/09/01
02:58 AM
Please
respond to
"TechNet
E-Mail
Forum."
Phil,
So the following is of concern:
:The thickness of the intermetallic formed by thermal aging had little
effect on the peel strength until the intermetallic thickness reached above
25 microns (0.001 inch). Then the lead rich layer appeared to be a major
the
contributor, it formed large lead crystals the fractured easily along grain
boundaries."
Is this then a thickness specification not to be exceeded, and how easily
under what conditions did the fracture occur?
Earl
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Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 13:19:05 +0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "<Peter George Duncan>" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: IC Storage
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
If the IC's were moisture sensitive, they usually come in trays wrapped in
barrier bags, not tubes. Least ways, I've never met any in tubes. Moisture
control is 10% RH or less and 25C or less, and cabinets are available that
go down to 3% RH.
Peter Duncan
Michael Bell
<Michael.Bell@ To: [log in to unmask]
GPC.CO.NZ> cc: (bcc: DUNCAN Peter/Asst Prin Engr/ST Aero/ST Group)
Sent by: Subject: Re: [TN] IC Storage
TechNet
<[log in to unmask]
RG>
10/09/01 04:07
PM
Please respond
to "TechNet
E-Mail Forum."
What are you trying to protect the I/C's from???
If it is a moisture issue, you should probably store them in a low humidity
incubator. These are quite readily avalible and can be promoted as either
an incubator of humidity chamber. The idea is just to maintain a humidity
of 15% or lower (I think) at ambient.
If it is simply a static issue, I tend to agree with Eric.
Cheers
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Davis [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, 9 October 2001 04:40
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] IC Storage
Hello all, Does any one have any good suggestions for storing tubed smt
ic's? I would like to stay away from the cardboard type storage units.
Thanks in advance.
Bill Davis.
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Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 08:43:50 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Tempea, Ioan" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SPC @ WAVE SOLDER
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Hi Technet,
this topic is being a hot and recurrent topic on this Net. Consequently, a
lot of the opinions are of value. However, it would be great to have more
specific data. The various parameters to monitor have been covered, but what
are the actual target values for the flux sprayed on the plate, for the
contact length, etc? And why?
Give my regards to broadnet,
Ioan
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Yves.Dupuis [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Friday, October 05, 2001 2:01 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] SPC @ WAVE SOLDER
>
> I agree that understanding the relationships, in your process, between the
> key variables is what matters most. SPC is a system designed to quantify
> your natural variation and provide visual tools to detect when your
> process
> is affected by some other cause of variation. The correlations between
> variable are usually determined under specific conditions. SPC is best
> used
> to detect changes in conditions that render the models you've developed
> invalid and/or inaccurate. For example, regardless of what the maintenance
> records say, I can tell when the schedule for pump cleaning has not been
> properly followed using my dwell time charts. Since the model which tells
> me
> which parameters are optimal (including pump speed) assumes this
> maintenance
> is done in a certain manner, when maintenance is late the process drifts
> away from optimal. The SPC charts warn me this is happening.
>
> yves
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Earl Moon [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> > Sent: Friday, October 05, 2001 12:08 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: [TN] SPC @ WAVE SOLDER
> >
> > I still live in the glass plate and matrix world. Simple correlations
> > between variables as conveyor speed, temps, topside measurements,
> managing
> > fluxes and their applications, wave height, contact area parallelism and
> > dwell time all make solder joint attributes clearly acceptable or not.
> SPC
> > is used in a number of the variables and provides, again, correlation to
> > the
> > matrix (relative to PCB thermal mass, as an example) and the effects of
> > good
> > process management. Though wave soldering has a few more factors,
> compared
> > with hand or reflow soldering, the basics are all the same, to me, for
> > each.
> > I'm a simple fool and can't change at this point when it works.
> >
> > MoonMan
> >
> >
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Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 10:24:36 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "PERALTA, Kevin (BREA)" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Heinz Mader/NMADEH/CH/Ascom ist au?er Haus.
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Heinz,
Sprechen sie english!
-----Original Message-----
From: Heinz Mader [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, October 08, 2001 4:01 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Heinz Mader/NMADEH/CH/Ascom ist au?er Haus.
Ich werde ab 08.10.2001 nicht im B=FCro sein. Ich kehre zur=FCck am
16.10.2001.
Ich werde Ihre Nachricht nach meiner R=FCckkehr beantworten.
Bei Problemen Hugo Piller oder Bernhard Schaeren
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charset=3Diso-8859-1">
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5.5.2653.12">
<TITLE>RE: [TN] Heinz Mader/NMADEH/CH/Ascom ist au?er Haus.</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Heinz,</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sprechen sie english!</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Heinz Mader [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]</A>]</F=
ONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sent: Monday, October 08, 2001 4:01 PM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: [log in to unmask]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: [TN] Heinz Mader/NMADEH/CH/Ascom ist au?er =
Haus.</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Ich werde ab 08.10.2001 nicht im B=FCro sein. =
Ich kehre zur=FCck am</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>16.10.2001.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Ich werde Ihre Nachricht nach meiner R=FCckkehr =
beantworten.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Bei Problemen Hugo Piller oder Bernhard =
Schaeren</FONT>
</P>
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SIZE=3D2>---------------------------------------------------------------=
------------------</FONT>
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Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 10:43:30 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Roger M. Stoops" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Heinz Mader/NMADEH/CH/Ascom ist au?er Haus.
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Just an out-of-office message:
I will answer your news after my return. With problems Hugo Piller or
Bernhard Sch=E4ren
=
=20
"PERALTA, =
=20
Kevin (BREA)" To: [log in to unmask] =
=20
<Kevin.Peralt cc: =
=20
[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: [TN] Heinz Ma=
der/NMADEH/CH/Ascom ist au?er Haus. =20
Sent by: =
=20
TechNet =
=20
<[log in to unmask] =
=20
ORG> =
=20
=
=20
=
=20
10/09/01 =
=20
10:24 AM =
=20
Please =
=20
respond to =
=20
"TechNet =
=20
E-Mail =
=20
Forum." =
=20
=
=20
=
=20
Heinz,
Sprechen sie english!
-----Original Message-----
From: Heinz Mader [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, October 08, 2001 4:01 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Heinz Mader/NMADEH/CH/Ascom ist au?er Haus.
Ich werde ab 08.10.2001 nicht im B=FCro sein. Ich kehre zur=FCck am
16.10.2001.
Ich werde Ihre Nachricht nach meiner R=FCckkehr beantworten.
Bei Problemen Hugo Piller oder Bernhard Schaeren
-----------------------------------------------------------------------=
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s >
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0
ext.5315
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=
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Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 09:48:16 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Gary McCauley <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Heinz Mader/NMADEH/CH/Ascom ist au?er Haus.
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Roughly, he said that he would be out of the office from Oct 8 - 16.
Any problems, contact Hugo Piller or Bernhard Schaeren .
[Gary McCauley]=20
=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: PERALTA, Kevin (BREA) [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 9:25 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Heinz Mader/NMADEH/CH/Ascom ist au?er Haus.
Heinz,=20
Sprechen sie english!=20
-----Original Message-----=20
From: Heinz Mader [ mailto:[log in to unmask]
<mailto:[log in to unmask]> ]=20
Sent: Monday, October 08, 2001 4:01 PM=20
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Heinz Mader/NMADEH/CH/Ascom ist au?er Haus.=20
Ich werde ab 08.10.2001 nicht im B=FCro sein. Ich kehre zur=FCck am=20
16.10.2001.=20
Ich werde Ihre Nachricht nach meiner R=FCckkehr beantworten.=20
Bei Problemen Hugo Piller oder Bernhard Schaeren=20
------------------------------------------------------------------------=
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Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d =
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in=20
the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet=20
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Technet NOMAIL=20
Search previous postings at: www.ipc.org > On-Line Resources & =
Databases >
E-mail Archives=20
Please visit IPC web site ( http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm
<http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm> ) for additional=20
information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or =
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<TITLE>RE: [TN] Heinz Mader/NMADEH/CH/Ascom ist au?er Haus.</TITLE>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D079384614-09102001>Roughly, he said that he would be out of the =
office=20
from Oct 8 - 16.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D079384614-09102001>Any=20
problems, contact Hugo Piller or Bernhard Schaeren =
.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D079384614-09102001></SPAN><FONT =
face=3DTahoma><BR><FONT=20
size=3D2><SPAN class=3D079384614-09102001><FONT color=3D#0000ff =
face=3DArial>[Gary=20
McCauley] </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DTahoma><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D079384614-09102001></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DTahoma><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D079384614-09102001></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DTahoma><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D079384614-09102001> </SPAN>-----Original =
Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
PERALTA, Kevin (BREA) [mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> =
Tuesday,=20
October 09, 2001 9:25 AM<BR><B>To:</B> =
[log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:=20
[TN] Heinz Mader/NMADEH/CH/Ascom ist au?er Haus.<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"></FONT>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Heinz,</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Sprechen sie english!</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>-----Original Message-----</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>From: Heinz=20
Mader [<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]</A>]</F=
ONT>=20
<BR><FONT size=3D2>Sent: Monday, October 08, 2001 4:01 PM</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>To: [log in to unmask]</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>Subject: [TN] =
Heinz=20
Mader/NMADEH/CH/Ascom ist au?er Haus.</FONT> </P><BR>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Ich werde ab 08.10.2001 nicht im B=FCro sein. =
Ich kehre=20
zur=FCck am</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>16.10.2001.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Ich werde Ihre Nachricht nach meiner R=FCckkehr=20
beantworten.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>Bei Problemen Hugo =
Piller oder=20
Bernhard Schaeren</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT=20
=
size=3D2>---------------------------------------------------------------=
------------------</FONT>=20
<BR><FONT size=3D2>Technet Mail List provided as a free service by =
IPC using=20
LISTSERV 1.8d</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>To unsubscribe, send a =
message to=20
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temporarily=20
halt delivery of Technet send the following message: SET Technet =
NOMAIL</FONT>=20
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On-Line=20
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size=3D2>Please=20
visit IPC web site (<A href=3D"http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm"=20
target=3D_blank>http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm</A>) for =
additional</FONT>=20
<BR><FONT size=3D2>information, or contact Keach Sasamori at =
[log in to unmask] or=20
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Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 11:17:04 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Graham Collins <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: # of rework cycle for SMT gullwing component
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Moonman - when I worked for Celestica (Toronto) we only allowed 2 for any =
surface finish. I worked both HASL and OSP. I believe there was more =
concern with pads lifting than intermetallic layer. Besides - if you have =
to replace a part 3 times you have some serious issues to work.
regards
Graham Collins
Process Engineer,=20
Northrop Grumman
Atlantic Facility of Litton Systems Canada
(902) 873-2000 ext 6215
>>> [log in to unmask] 10/08/01 03:53PM >>>
For fine pitch and BGA, HP and Celestica used to allow two cycles for HASL
(ring a ding) and three for OSP and ENIG. Why is that?
MoonMan
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Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 16:33:13 +0100
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Mike Fenner <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: # of rework cycle for SMT gullwing component
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Agreed the limiting factor is likely to be pad adhesion: did some work in
this area a while ago which indicated you could rework the pads or at least
copper foil same thickness as the pads >8 times, but that in real world
unsupported pads (i.e. no though connection etc) would consistently unstick
after around 4-5 goes. This was very much a pragmatic exercise just to
determine an order of size, too many real world variables with arbitrary
numbers to give a scientific answer. These numbers would be lower now as pad
sizes have decreased
Best regards
Mike Fenner
Applications Engineer, European Operations
Indium Corporation
T: + 44 1908 580 400
M: + 44 7810 526 317
F: + 44 1908 580 411
E: [log in to unmask]
W: www.indium.com
Leadfree: http://Pb-Free.com
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Graham Collins
Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 4:17 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] # of rework cycle for SMT gullwing component
Moonman - when I worked for Celestica (Toronto) we only allowed 2 for any
surface finish. I worked both HASL and OSP. I believe there was more
concern with pads lifting than intermetallic layer. Besides - if you have
to replace a part 3 times you have some serious issues to work.
regards
Graham Collins
Process Engineer,
Northrop Grumman
Atlantic Facility of Litton Systems Canada
(902) 873-2000 ext 6215
>>> [log in to unmask] 10/08/01 03:53PM >>>
For fine pitch and BGA, HP and Celestica used to allow two cycles for HASL
(ring a ding) and three for OSP and ENIG. Why is that?
MoonMan
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Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 11:28:18 +0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: hsinsun <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Wire Bonding on Rh
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Hi, Technetters,
Rh ( Rhodium ) is the better White Color metal. But it is hard to be wire
bonded.
Does anybody know what kind of wire is good for bonding to Rh?
Where to get it.
Appreciate your kind assistance.
Chung J. Lee / Hsinsun / Taiwan
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Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 10:47:07 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: # of rework cycle for SMT gullwing component
Graham,
I do agree with you in all respects. At CF we usually followed Toronto's
lead as you folks were our technical inspiration or Gods, if you will.
I'm still trying to get more on the IMC issue. I think I still see
differences between recognized experts in this area. I will summarize what I
think I know for all to shoot at.
MoonMan
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Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 11:00:30 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
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From: Jason Gregory <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Question for the physics "gurus"
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How do you convert pound/kilogram to G-force? Is this convertable? Since =
G-force is somewhat time derived and pound/kilogram is force derived?=20
Any help is appreciated.
Jason Gregory
Software Specialist - NPI Group
SCI Systems/Plant 2
13000 S. Memorial Pkwy.
Huntsville, AL. 35803
(256) 882-4107 x3728
[log in to unmask]
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Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 11:34:13 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: IMC'S - NO LONGER STIRRING THE POT
Thanks folks for all your great input, but I'm still without a clear
understanding of the IMC subject and may never be.
It is not hard for me to get confused at my advanced age and congenital
ignorance. I?m just not getting a consistent picture. Could someone paint it
for me ? for us all. First, the following is what I think I know:
1) I should have said non-surface scientists (me especially) look at a
surface as what it is apparent as an objects area having no depth.
2) Surface scientists clearly understand surface as definitely having depth
down to the surface?s beginning (about 1,000 angstroms or so) and understand
that atomic layers (not mono-layers ? very poorly put) comprise this ?depth
to surface.?
3) Soldering is defined as the joining of two metal surfaces, with a solder
medium (eutectic most commonly composed of tin-lead but changing to
something lead free soon) requiring both diffusion and intermetallic
formation (not Manko?s original definition) at temperatures below 800 F.
4) I know all processes are capable of being mis-managed including HASL. I
just find it more difficult to manage effectively across so many suppliers.
I'll not go farther with this. Each of us has to make a decision concerning
a process and its effects.
5) I recognize that rework cycles, be they two or three, have more impact on
circuit integrity as pad bond strength, etc. I still need to know how much
is too much concerning intermetallic growth and its correlation to solder
joint reliability.
What follows is what?s confusing to me:
1) I THINK Werner says thick IMC formations are essential and good for
reliable solder joints. Is this right?
2) Aside from board/pad damage, can there be too many soldering operations
performed
3) Is there a maximum or minimum IMC thickness to assure reliable solder joints
4) Does Phil agree about IMC thickness
5) Does Peter Duncan agree about IMC thickness
6) Do Manko and Rahn agree
7) Is this what Wassink says and knows and is it converse to all the above
except Werner
The main reason I?m asking is to gain objective evidence concerning eutectic
lead soldering techniques having been around since before the time of
Christ. Then, I would like to apply some of this understanding to what
concerns us all as lead free soldering using who knows what. So, this means,
I?m really no longer interested in stirring the pot, nor am I interested in
becoming an expert. I just want a handle on this stuff as there still seems
to be too much opinion.
I just want to learn more about what I once thought I knew a little
something about.
Earl Moon
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Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 09:56:14 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Timothy Reeves <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Copper migration
X-To: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
IAW IPC/EIA-J-STD-001C (March 2000) Table 5-1 (first entry in table)
Tim
-----Original Message-----
From: Earl Moon [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, October 08, 2001 11:51 AM
Subject: Re: Copper migration
Tim,
In accordance with what, please?
Earl
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Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 10:23:16 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Timothy Reeves <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Question for the physics "gurus"
X-To: Jason Gregory <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
No Jason,
I am not a guru, but that's OK. They are not interconvertible. One is a
measure of force, the other acceleration (actually a dimensionless
multiplier of the standard gravitational acceleration, g, 9.8 m/s^2). If you
have an object in mind of a known mass, you could find the force exerted on
it given the acceleration ("G's") by F = m a.
Example: 100 gram object subjected to 5 G's ---------> F = 0.1 kg * 5 * 9.8
m/s^2 = 4.9 Newtons or 0.5 kilogram force or 1.1 lb-force.
Tim Reeves
-----Original Message-----
From: Jason Gregory [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 9:01 AM
Subject: Question for the physics "gurus"
How do you convert pound/kilogram to G-force? Is this convertable? Since
G-force is somewhat time derived and pound/kilogram is force derived?
Any help is appreciated.
Jason Gregory
Software Specialist - NPI Group
SCI Systems/Plant 2
13000 S. Memorial Pkwy.
Huntsville, AL. 35803
(256) 882-4107 x3728
[log in to unmask]
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Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 13:31:22 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Hinners Hans M Civ WRALC/LUGE <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Question for the physics "gurus"
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hi Jason,
Are you talking g-force (g, or gee's), a unit of acceleration? Metric g =
9.81 meters / second(squared) or g = 32 feet / second (squared)
Divide your acceleration by either of those numbers and that's how many g's
you're pulling.
Or
Are you talking about weight, the force (on an object) due to gravity, Fg?
Force (gravity) = mass * acceleration due to gravity (g)
Units of measure
metric: Force -> Newton, mass: gram
English: force -> Pound, mass: slug
And my high school physics teacher, Mrs. Reed both acceleration and force
due to gravity are vectors so they need a direction associated with them -
usually pointing straight down towards' the center of the earth.
Hans
Integrity First - Service Before Self - Excellence in All We Do
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hans M. Hinners
Electronics Engineer
Warner Robins - Air Logistics Center (WR-ALC/LUGE)
Special Operations Forces System Program Office (SOF - SPO)
Gunship Team
226 Cochran Street
Robins AFB GA 31098-1622
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Com: (478) 926 - 5224
Fax: (478) 926 - 4911
DSN Prefix: 468
-----Original Message-----
From: Jason Gregory [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 12:01 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Question for the physics "gurus"
How do you convert pound/kilogram to G-force? Is this convertable? Since
G-force is somewhat time derived and pound/kilogram is force derived?
Any help is appreciated.
Jason Gregory
Software Specialist - NPI Group
SCI Systems/Plant 2
13000 S. Memorial Pkwy.
Huntsville, AL. 35803
(256) 882-4107 x3728
[log in to unmask]
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Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 13:33:22 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Tempea, Ioan" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Flex technology
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Hi Technos,
time has come when we have to look into the flex technology. Please provide
me with a list of text books, or any kind of other sources, covering this
topic.
I am primarily interested in assembling on flex, but any source on the PCB
manufacturing would also be appreciated.
And then, why not, I would be grateful for any insight you could offer, like
reliable flex PCB manufacturers and how to qualify them, pitfalls of using
conventional machinery, special tooling needed, soldering considerations,
etc.
Thanks in advance,
Ioan
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Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 12:41:36 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Richard W Hinebaugh <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Flex technology
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
I need help on the same topic of flex technology, especially the area of
how to cost it out. Please send me any help references you can. Thanks.
RICH HINEBAUGH
ECAT (ELECTRONIC ASSEMBLY AND TEST) COST ENGINEER
OUTSOURCED STORAGE & COST ENGINEERING
PHONE 507-253-3470,TIE LINE 553-3470,FAX 507-253-2148
3055 41st ST NW
DEPT. 3A6,BLDG 664-1,E103
ROCHESTER,MN 55901
EMAIL: [log in to unmask]
What do you want to see when you look back on your life?
"Tempea, Ioan"
<itempea@POSIT To: [log in to unmask]
RON.QC.CA> cc:
Sent by: Subject: [TN] Flex technology
TechNet
<[log in to unmask]
RG>
10/09/01 12:33
PM
Please respond
to "TechNet
E-Mail Forum."
Hi Technos,
time has come when we have to look into the flex technology. Please provide
me with a list of text books, or any kind of other sources, covering this
topic.
I am primarily interested in assembling on flex, but any source on the PCB
manufacturing would also be appreciated.
And then, why not, I would be grateful for any insight you could offer,
like
reliable flex PCB manufacturers and how to qualify them, pitfalls of using
conventional machinery, special tooling needed, soldering considerations,
etc.
Thanks in advance,
Ioan
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Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 14:05:14 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Bill Raymond <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Hot and cold cycle on BGA's at test and repair...
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Many thanks to all who replied to this thread! Just letting the test
department read all the replies has made the difference... thanks again.
Bill...
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Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 12:31:32 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Flex technology
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
A 50 layer flex circuit with my brain assembled to it while functioning much
better than now..
MoonMan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard W Hinebaugh" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 10:41 AM
Subject: Re: [TN] Flex technology
> I need help on the same topic of flex technology, especially the area of
> how to cost it out. Please send me any help references you can. Thanks.
>
> RICH HINEBAUGH
> ECAT (ELECTRONIC ASSEMBLY AND TEST) COST ENGINEER
> OUTSOURCED STORAGE & COST ENGINEERING
> PHONE 507-253-3470,TIE LINE 553-3470,FAX 507-253-2148
> 3055 41st ST NW
> DEPT. 3A6,BLDG 664-1,E103
> ROCHESTER,MN 55901
> EMAIL: [log in to unmask]
> What do you want to see when you look back on your life?
>
>
>
> "Tempea, Ioan"
> <itempea@POSIT To: [log in to unmask]
> RON.QC.CA> cc:
> Sent by: Subject: [TN] Flex technology
> TechNet
> <[log in to unmask]
> RG>
>
>
> 10/09/01 12:33
> PM
> Please respond
> to "TechNet
> E-Mail Forum."
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Technos,
>
> time has come when we have to look into the flex technology. Please
provide
> me with a list of text books, or any kind of other sources, covering this
> topic.
>
> I am primarily interested in assembling on flex, but any source on the PCB
> manufacturing would also be appreciated.
>
> And then, why not, I would be grateful for any insight you could offer,
> like
> reliable flex PCB manufacturers and how to qualify them, pitfalls of using
> conventional machinery, special tooling needed, soldering considerations,
> etc.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Ioan
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 14:42:04 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "<Rudy Sedlak>" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Question for the physics "gurus"
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1 "G" = 32 feet/second/second
don't think you can convert kilos to feet/second/second
Rudy Sedlak
RD Chemical Company
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Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 13:54:28 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Charles Caswell <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Question for the physics "gurus"
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Right. Kilo's are mass. 1 kilo X 1m/s/s =3D 1 newton (force )
1 slug X 1 ft/s/s =3D 1 lb.
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet E-Mail Forum. [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 2:42 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Question for the physics "gurus"=20
1 "G" =3D 32 feet/second/second
don't think you can convert kilos to feet/second/second
Rudy Sedlak
RD Chemical Company
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Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 15:11:11 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Bissonnette, Jean-Francois" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Question for the physics "gurus"
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hi Jason,
Why would you like to make that conversion? What will you use the "results"
of that
convertion for?
Maybe the physics guys will be a little more able to help that way.
JF
-----Original Message-----
From: Timothy Reeves [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 1:23 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Question for the physics "gurus"
No Jason,
I am not a guru, but that's OK. They are not interconvertible. One is a
measure of force, the other acceleration (actually a dimensionless
multiplier of the standard gravitational acceleration, g, 9.8 m/s^2). If you
have an object in mind of a known mass, you could find the force exerted on
it given the acceleration ("G's") by F = m a.
Example: 100 gram object subjected to 5 G's ---------> F = 0.1 kg * 5 * 9.8
m/s^2 = 4.9 Newtons or 0.5 kilogram force or 1.1 lb-force.
Tim Reeves
-----Original Message-----
From: Jason Gregory [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 9:01 AM
Subject: Question for the physics "gurus"
How do you convert pound/kilogram to G-force? Is this convertable? Since
G-force is somewhat time derived and pound/kilogram is force derived?
Any help is appreciated.
Jason Gregory
Software Specialist - NPI Group
SCI Systems/Plant 2
13000 S. Memorial Pkwy.
Huntsville, AL. 35803
(256) 882-4107 x3728
[log in to unmask]
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Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 22:41:35 +0300
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Brian Ellis <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Question for the physics "gurus"
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Jason,
Pound/kilogram is a ratio of 1:2.2046 or 0.4536 and cannot have anything
whatsoever to do with an acceleration which can be expressed only in
distance/unit time^2. Aren't you barking up the wrong monkey puzzle?
Brian
Jason Gregory wrote:
>
> How do you convert pound/kilogram to G-force? Is this convertable? Since G-force is somewhat time derived and pound/kilogram is force derived?
> Any help is appreciated.
>
> Jason Gregory
> Software Specialist - NPI Group
> SCI Systems/Plant 2
> 13000 S. Memorial Pkwy.
> Huntsville, AL. 35803
> (256) 882-4107 x3728
> [log in to unmask]
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 08:53:37 +1300
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Michael Bell <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Question for the physics "gurus"
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Brian,
Wrong, you can compare the weight and force. This comes back to the common
equation of F=MA. Force = Mass x Acceleration. Here you use the simple
gravity acceleration to compare a weight factor to the force it applies.
i.e. A persons weight can be discribed as a force due to the gravity
acceleration constant 9.8m/s.
Force a persons weight applies on the ground is F=70Kg x 9.8m/s.
So therefore, you can describe a weight as a force, provided this is
reviewed in the correct axis. If we were talking in a horizontal axis, this
theory doens't apply.
Perhaps, you were refering to the Pounds/Kilogram reference earlier. I
think Jason just used that (Pounds/Kilograms) as a reference to weight
regardless of your units and not to the actual ratio itself.
Cheers
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Ellis [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, 10 October 2001 08:42
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Question for the physics "gurus"
Jason,
Pound/kilogram is a ratio of 1:2.2046 or 0.4536 and cannot have anything
whatsoever to do with an acceleration which can be expressed only in
distance/unit time^2. Aren't you barking up the wrong monkey puzzle?
Brian
Jason Gregory wrote:
>
> How do you convert pound/kilogram to G-force? Is this convertable? Since
G-force is somewhat time derived and pound/kilogram is force derived?
> Any help is appreciated.
>
> Jason Gregory
> Software Specialist - NPI Group
> SCI Systems/Plant 2
> 13000 S. Memorial Pkwy.
> Huntsville, AL. 35803
> (256) 882-4107 x3728
> [log in to unmask]
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 16:19:28 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Bissonnette, Jean-Francois" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Question for the physics "gurus"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Just a little note here. Pounds and Kilograms cannot be put in the
same basket as the weight is function of the mass.
For example, your mass on earth or on the moon or on Jupiter
(supposing it was a solid planet) is always the same. However your
weight will change (approx 1/6 on the moon).
If I'm not wrong, you'll find your weight using the formula:
k*m1*m2/d^2 where k is a constant m1 is earth mass in kilograms
m2 your mass in kilograms d is the distance between earth center
of gravity and you.
So Kilograms and pounds are not the same.
my two cents...
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Bell [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 3:54 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Question for the physics "gurus"
Brian,
Wrong, you can compare the weight and force. This comes back to the common
equation of F=MA. Force = Mass x Acceleration. Here you use the simple
gravity acceleration to compare a weight factor to the force it applies.
i.e. A persons weight can be discribed as a force due to the gravity
acceleration constant 9.8m/s.
Force a persons weight applies on the ground is F=70Kg x 9.8m/s.
So therefore, you can describe a weight as a force, provided this is
reviewed in the correct axis. If we were talking in a horizontal axis, this
theory doens't apply.
Perhaps, you were refering to the Pounds/Kilogram reference earlier. I
think Jason just used that (Pounds/Kilograms) as a reference to weight
regardless of your units and not to the actual ratio itself.
Cheers
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Ellis [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, 10 October 2001 08:42
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Question for the physics "gurus"
Jason,
Pound/kilogram is a ratio of 1:2.2046 or 0.4536 and cannot have anything
whatsoever to do with an acceleration which can be expressed only in
distance/unit time^2. Aren't you barking up the wrong monkey puzzle?
Brian
Jason Gregory wrote:
>
> How do you convert pound/kilogram to G-force? Is this convertable? Since
G-force is somewhat time derived and pound/kilogram is force derived?
> Any help is appreciated.
>
> Jason Gregory
> Software Specialist - NPI Group
> SCI Systems/Plant 2
> 13000 S. Memorial Pkwy.
> Huntsville, AL. 35803
> (256) 882-4107 x3728
> [log in to unmask]
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
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> Please visit IPC web site (http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm) for
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Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 16:50:51 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Lou Hart <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Question for the physics "gurus"
Jason sure has gotten a lot of feedback on this question. I have these
comments.
Pound/kilogram is, in principle, acceleration, since the pound is a unit of
force, and force divided by mass is acceleration. According to a
conversion calculator a colleague gave me, 1 pound (force) is 4.448222
newtons. Since G= (approximately) 9.8 m/sec^2 (meters per second
squared), it looks like (pound/kilogram) x 2 = G (approximately, as
acceleration).
Jason refers to G force. Mass x G = force (weight) as several have pointed
out. A body's mass has a force (weight) applied to it when accelerated.
I wonder if something is left out of the question - are these some kind of
shorthand units? For example, in referring to flight, people talk about G
force - since a pilot's mass does not change, acceleration will effectively
add to weight force on the body. No matter the mass of the pilot's body,
the multiplier increasing the force on it above that on the earth's surface
is the acceleration (commonly expressing in "G"s). My favorite example of
a shorthand unit is wave number, the number of wavelengths of radiation in
1 centimeter. I believe it is most commonly used in infrared spectroscopy
as a unit of energy. "Inverse centimeters" seems far removed from energy,
but is equivalent if you understand the shorthand involved and multiply
wavenumber by Planck's constant and again by the speed of light.
I look forward to the day when "pounds" and "inches" are as commonly used
in mechanics as "statcoulombs" and "abamps" now are in electricity and
magnetism. Lou Hart
-----Original Message-----
From: <Rudy Sedlak> [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 2:42 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Question for the physics "gurus"
1 "G" = 32 feet/second/second
don't think you can convert kilos to feet/second/second
Rudy Sedlak
RD Chemical Company
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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:52:45 +1300
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Michael Bell <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Question for the physics "gurus"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Now your starting to get into the theories of two masses vastly different to
one another developing a form of gravity between them. The same thing
applies to one very large mass exterting a form of gravity on a very small
mass, i.e. person and a planet. Or for example, a marble being dropped from
the top of a skyscraper. As the marble drops from the top, because the
skyscraper is regarded as infinitely large in comparison to the marble, the
Skyscraper forms a source of gravity on the marble, and attracts the marble
towards the building. This is why if you spit from the top of the Empire
State Building, your spit will never reach the ground, but end up being
pulled onto the outside wall of the building. Fascinating eh?
-----Original Message-----
From: Bissonnette, Jean-Francois [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, 10 October 2001 09:19
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Question for the physics "gurus"
Just a little note here. Pounds and Kilograms cannot be put in the
same basket as the weight is function of the mass.
For example, your mass on earth or on the moon or on Jupiter
(supposing it was a solid planet) is always the same. However your
weight will change (approx 1/6 on the moon).
If I'm not wrong, you'll find your weight using the formula:
k*m1*m2/d^2 where k is a constant m1 is earth mass in kilograms
m2 your mass in kilograms d is the distance between earth center
of gravity and you.
So Kilograms and pounds are not the same.
my two cents...
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Bell [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 3:54 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Question for the physics "gurus"
Brian,
Wrong, you can compare the weight and force. This comes back to the common
equation of F=MA. Force = Mass x Acceleration. Here you use the simple
gravity acceleration to compare a weight factor to the force it applies.
i.e. A persons weight can be discribed as a force due to the gravity
acceleration constant 9.8m/s.
Force a persons weight applies on the ground is F=70Kg x 9.8m/s.
So therefore, you can describe a weight as a force, provided this is
reviewed in the correct axis. If we were talking in a horizontal axis, this
theory doens't apply.
Perhaps, you were refering to the Pounds/Kilogram reference earlier. I
think Jason just used that (Pounds/Kilograms) as a reference to weight
regardless of your units and not to the actual ratio itself.
Cheers
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Ellis [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, 10 October 2001 08:42
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Question for the physics "gurus"
Jason,
Pound/kilogram is a ratio of 1:2.2046 or 0.4536 and cannot have anything
whatsoever to do with an acceleration which can be expressed only in
distance/unit time^2. Aren't you barking up the wrong monkey puzzle?
Brian
Jason Gregory wrote:
>
> How do you convert pound/kilogram to G-force? Is this convertable? Since
G-force is somewhat time derived and pound/kilogram is force derived?
> Any help is appreciated.
>
> Jason Gregory
> Software Specialist - NPI Group
> SCI Systems/Plant 2
> 13000 S. Memorial Pkwy.
> Huntsville, AL. 35803
> (256) 882-4107 x3728
> [log in to unmask]
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
> Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d
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Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 16:43:46 -0500
Reply-To: DC <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: DC <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Question for the physics "gurus"
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With all the suggestions it would be nice to hear from Jason.
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Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 18:43:26 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Phil Hinton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: IMC's
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="part1_123.58f17ed.28f4d78e_boundary"
--part1_123.58f17ed.28f4d78e_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Earl
With regard to the thickness and strength at where the lead rich area failed,
you will note that this happened with the high purity copper foil (at least
three 9s). This high purity copper is not seen when produced in a circuit
board plating bath. The large lead crystals and failure in this area is
something that is often seen in high lead solders that have undergone thermal
aging. The failure was between the solder and the solder an the
intertermetallic only occurred with the higfh purity copper. With the normal
circuit board plated foil, failures occurr between the two intermetallic
layers or between the copper and Cu3Sn layer. As to strength; with the low
purity copper that had been aged extensively, masking tape easily pulled off
the solder. As copper purity increased the strength increased. The strength
of the high purity foil solder joint where the failure was in the lead rich
area was roughly 40% of the the failure strength of a fresh joint.
Phil Hinton
--part1_123.58f17ed.28f4d78e_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>Earl
<BR>
<BR>With regard to the thickness and strength at where the lead rich area failed, you will note that this happened with the high purity copper foil (at least three 9s). This high purity copper is not seen when produced in a circuit board plating bath. The large lead crystals and failure in this area is something that is often seen in high lead solders that have undergone thermal aging. The failure was between the solder and the solder an the intertermetallic only occurred with the higfh purity copper. With the normal circuit board plated foil, failures occurr between the two intermetallic layers or between the copper and Cu3Sn layer. As to strength; with the low purity copper that had been aged extensively, masking tape easily pulled off the solder. As copper purity increased the strength increased. The strength of the high purity foil solder joint where the failure was in the lead rich area was roughly 40% of the the failure s!
trength of a fresh joint.
<BR>
<BR>Phil Hinton </FONT></HTML>
--part1_123.58f17ed.28f4d78e_boundary--
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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 01:35:05 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: IMC's
X-To: Phil Hinton <[log in to unmask]>
Thank you Phil very much. Your studies and comments are very insightful.
It seems "current" solder joint formation technology, dating back over a
thousand or more years, is very reliable and forgiving under almost any
condition, stress, shock, or operational environment. High or relatively low
purity copper, high or low thickness intermetallic compounds, etc. all seem
to have little affect on solder joints, in general. Once a "good" solder
joint is formed, it seems that it should remain in tact for some time. Will
this be true for our "new age" solder joints - as lead free, depending on
the alloy, or not, for a particular application?
Earl Moon
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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 08:03:40 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Neil Atkinson <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Question for the physics "gurus"
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I've forgotten what the original question was but I think we are getting
confused between metric and imperial measures. Just for the record:
In SI units (which we should all be using!!!),
Mass = Kg
Force = Newton
In old Imperial Units:
Mass = Pound or Ounce
Force = Pound-Force or Ounce-Force
See web site: http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/units.html for a full list
of SI units.
I've just re-read the original question and the answer is no, you can't
convert Kg or Ib to G force. G Force is dependant on the Mass. e.g. the
force exerted on a racing drivers neck as he turns a corner will increase if
his helmet is heavier. i.e. Mass (Kg) x Acceleration (M/s^2).
1G is equal to the force applied by the earth's gravity i.e. the force on a
given mass due to an acceleration of 9.8M/S^2.
I am not a physicist so if any of the above is incorrect I am sure someone
will tell me.
But please lets stick to one system of measure (preferably SI units).
Neil
-----Original Message-----
From: Lou Hart [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 09 October 2001 21:51
Subject: Re: Question for the physics "gurus"
Jason sure has gotten a lot of feedback on this question. I have these
comments.
Pound/kilogram is, in principle, acceleration, since the pound is a unit of
force, and force divided by mass is acceleration. According to a
conversion calculator a colleague gave me, 1 pound (force) is 4.448222
newtons. Since G= (approximately) 9.8 m/sec^2 (meters per second
squared), it looks like (pound/kilogram) x 2 = G (approximately, as
acceleration).
Jason refers to G force. Mass x G = force (weight) as several have pointed
out. A body's mass has a force (weight) applied to it when accelerated.
I wonder if something is left out of the question - are these some kind of
shorthand units? For example, in referring to flight, people talk about G
force - since a pilot's mass does not change, acceleration will effectively
add to weight force on the body. No matter the mass of the pilot's body,
the multiplier increasing the force on it above that on the earth's surface
is the acceleration (commonly expressing in "G"s). My favorite example of
a shorthand unit is wave number, the number of wavelengths of radiation in
1 centimeter. I believe it is most commonly used in infrared spectroscopy
as a unit of energy. "Inverse centimeters" seems far removed from energy,
but is equivalent if you understand the shorthand involved and multiply
wavenumber by Planck's constant and again by the speed of light.
I look forward to the day when "pounds" and "inches" are as commonly used
in mechanics as "statcoulombs" and "abamps" now are in electricity and
magnetism. Lou Hart
-----Original Message-----
From: <Rudy Sedlak> [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 2:42 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Question for the physics "gurus"
1 "G" = 32 feet/second/second
don't think you can convert kilos to feet/second/second
Rudy Sedlak
RD Chemical Company
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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 13:12:37 +0300
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Brian Ellis <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Question for the physics "gurus"
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Neil
I agree with you. I come back to what I said earlier. Pound/kg (being
both masses) is a fixed ratio, no matter what the gravitational pull
causing acceleration. An earth pound of sugar on the moon will feel ~1/6
as heavy and an earth kg of sugar on the moon will also feel ~1/6 as
heavy. Both, measured on an equilibrium balance, against standard
weights, will weigh what they did on earth but, on a spring balance,
will indicate ~1/6 the weight.
I agree with you that SI or, at least, derived metric units should be
the only units used for scientific and technological subjects. The USA
passed a metrication bill in, I think, 1886, making metric units the
standard. It just takes them a little time to put into practice what the
legislators say. As the USA signed the ISO papers standard about 40
years ago, it may mean that they will abandon their terrible letter and
legal sizes in another 100, who knows? I'm afraid that I shall never see
a US document fit comfortably into a file that you can buy in
practically any country of the world! :-(
Brian
Neil Atkinson wrote:
>
> I've forgotten what the original question was but I think we are getting
> confused between metric and imperial measures. Just for the record:
>
> In SI units (which we should all be using!!!),
>
> Mass = Kg
> Force = Newton
>
> In old Imperial Units:
> Mass = Pound or Ounce
> Force = Pound-Force or Ounce-Force
>
> See web site: http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/units.html for a full list
> of SI units.
>
> I've just re-read the original question and the answer is no, you can't
> convert Kg or Ib to G force. G Force is dependant on the Mass. e.g. the
> force exerted on a racing drivers neck as he turns a corner will increase if
> his helmet is heavier. i.e. Mass (Kg) x Acceleration (M/s^2).
>
> 1G is equal to the force applied by the earth's gravity i.e. the force on a
> given mass due to an acceleration of 9.8M/S^2.
>
> I am not a physicist so if any of the above is incorrect I am sure someone
> will tell me.
>
> But please lets stick to one system of measure (preferably SI units).
>
> Neil
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lou Hart [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: 09 October 2001 21:51
> Subject: Re: Question for the physics "gurus"
>
> Jason sure has gotten a lot of feedback on this question. I have these
> comments.
>
> Pound/kilogram is, in principle, acceleration, since the pound is a unit of
> force, and force divided by mass is acceleration. According to a
> conversion calculator a colleague gave me, 1 pound (force) is 4.448222
> newtons. Since G= (approximately) 9.8 m/sec^2 (meters per second
> squared), it looks like (pound/kilogram) x 2 = G (approximately, as
> acceleration).
>
> Jason refers to G force. Mass x G = force (weight) as several have pointed
> out. A body's mass has a force (weight) applied to it when accelerated.
>
> I wonder if something is left out of the question - are these some kind of
> shorthand units? For example, in referring to flight, people talk about G
> force - since a pilot's mass does not change, acceleration will effectively
> add to weight force on the body. No matter the mass of the pilot's body,
> the multiplier increasing the force on it above that on the earth's surface
> is the acceleration (commonly expressing in "G"s). My favorite example of
> a shorthand unit is wave number, the number of wavelengths of radiation in
> 1 centimeter. I believe it is most commonly used in infrared spectroscopy
> as a unit of energy. "Inverse centimeters" seems far removed from energy,
> but is equivalent if you understand the shorthand involved and multiply
> wavenumber by Planck's constant and again by the speed of light.
>
> I look forward to the day when "pounds" and "inches" are as commonly used
> in mechanics as "statcoulombs" and "abamps" now are in electricity and
> magnetism. Lou Hart
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: <Rudy Sedlak> [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 2:42 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Question for the physics "gurus"
>
> 1 "G" = 32 feet/second/second
>
> don't think you can convert kilos to feet/second/second
>
> Rudy Sedlak
> RD Chemical Company
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> is waived or lost by any mistransmission. If you receive this message in error,
> please immediately delete it and all copies of it from your system, destroy any
> hard copies of it securely and notify the sender. You must not, directly or
> indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message
> if you are not the intended recipient. STADIUM GROUP PLC and any of its subsidiaries
> each reserve the right to monitor all e-mail communications through its networks.
> Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where
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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:39:19 +0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "<Peter George Duncan>" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Question for the physics "gurus"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Weight (pounds/kilograms) = mass x g, so you can't really convert weight to
g-force since g is already the factor giving weight to mass. You can
convert your pounds to kilograms (1kg = 2.204lbs), then divide by g
(9.81m/s/s) to get mass. You can divide the mass by its volume to get its
density.
What are you trying to calculate?
Peter Duncan
Jason Gregory
<Jason.Gregor To: [log in to unmask]
[log in to unmask]> cc: (bcc: DUNCAN Peter/Asst Prin Engr/ST
Sent by: Aero/ST Group)
TechNet Subject: [TN] Question for the physics "gurus"
<[log in to unmask]
ORG>
10/10/01
12:00 AM
Please
respond to
"TechNet
E-Mail
Forum."
How do you convert pound/kilogram to G-force? Is this convertable? Since
G-force is somewhat time derived and pound/kilogram is force derived?
Any help is appreciated.
Jason Gregory
Software Specialist - NPI Group
SCI Systems/Plant 2
13000 S. Memorial Pkwy.
Huntsville, AL. 35803
(256) 882-4107 x3728
[log in to unmask]
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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 08:57:41 +0100
Reply-To: Roger Bilham <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Roger Bilham <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: IMC'S - NO LONGER STIRRING THE POT
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Earl,
To get a good handle on the physics behind IMCs, I suggest you take a
look at Colin Lea's book - A Scientific Guide to Surface Mount
Technology, Electrochemical Publications, 1988. The book may be
beginning to age but the physics isn't. This explains the dynamics for
solders in both solid and liquid states, with both lareg and small
volumes of solder available to take part in the reactions.
It does not, however, say what is safe and what is unsafe ina any
particular cincumstances.
Regards,
Roger Bilham
In article <[log in to unmask]>, Earl Moon
<[log in to unmask]> writes
>Thanks folks for all your great input, but I'm still without a clear
>understanding of the IMC subject and may never be.
>
>It is not hard for me to get confused at my advanced age and congenital
>ignorance. I?m just not getting a consistent picture. Could someone paint it
>for me ? for us all. First, the following is what I think I know:
>
>1) I should have said non-surface scientists (me especially) look at a
>surface as what it is apparent as an objects area having no depth.
>
>2) Surface scientists clearly understand surface as definitely having depth
>down to the surface?s beginning (about 1,000 angstroms or so) and understand
>that atomic layers (not mono-layers ? very poorly put) comprise this ?depth
>to surface.?
>
>3) Soldering is defined as the joining of two metal surfaces, with a solder
>medium (eutectic most commonly composed of tin-lead but changing to
>something lead free soon) requiring both diffusion and intermetallic
>formation (not Manko?s original definition) at temperatures below 800 F.
>
>4) I know all processes are capable of being mis-managed including HASL. I
>just find it more difficult to manage effectively across so many suppliers.
>I'll not go farther with this. Each of us has to make a decision concerning
>a process and its effects.
>
>5) I recognize that rework cycles, be they two or three, have more impact on
>circuit integrity as pad bond strength, etc. I still need to know how much
>is too much concerning intermetallic growth and its correlation to solder
>joint reliability.
>
>What follows is what?s confusing to me:
>
>1) I THINK Werner says thick IMC formations are essential and good for
>reliable solder joints. Is this right?
>
>2) Aside from board/pad damage, can there be too many soldering operations
>performed
>
>3) Is there a maximum or minimum IMC thickness to assure reliable solder joints
>
>4) Does Phil agree about IMC thickness
>
>5) Does Peter Duncan agree about IMC thickness
>
>6) Do Manko and Rahn agree
>
>7) Is this what Wassink says and knows and is it converse to all the above
>except Werner
>
>The main reason I?m asking is to gain objective evidence concerning eutectic
>lead soldering techniques having been around since before the time of
>Christ. Then, I would like to apply some of this understanding to what
>concerns us all as lead free soldering using who knows what. So, this means,
>I?m really no longer interested in stirring the pot, nor am I interested in
>becoming an expert. I just want a handle on this stuff as there still seems
>to be too much opinion.
>
>I just want to learn more about what I once thought I knew a little
>something about.
>
>Earl Moon
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>-
>Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d
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--
Roger Bilham
Roger Bilham Consultancy
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Mobile +44 (0)7 941 122 446
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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 08:13:53 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Tom Oliver <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: No Mail 2 days
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hello
I have not received any postings in 2 days is the system down?
Tom Oliver
[log in to unmask]
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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 08:45:29 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Stephen R. Gregory" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: No Mail 2 days
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="part1_e.13d95a37.28f59ce9_boundary"
--part1_e.13d95a37.28f59ce9_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hi Tom!
Nope, it isn't...
One way you can tell is to send a email to: [log in to unmask] and in the body
of the
message type; thank you
If the server is functioning properly, you'll get a message back from the
server saying;
"Your're welcome..."
-Steve Gregory-
> Hello
> I have not received any postings in 2 days is the system down?
>
> Tom Oliver
> [log in to unmask]
>
--part1_e.13d95a37.28f59ce9_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>Hi Tom!
<BR>
<BR>Nope, it isn't...
<BR>
<BR>One way you can tell is to send a email to: [log in to unmask] and in the body of the
<BR>message type; thank you
<BR>
<BR>If the server is functioning properly, you'll get a message back from the server saying;
<BR>"Your're welcome..."
<BR>
<BR>-Steve Gregory-
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Hello
<BR>I have not received any postings in 2 days is the system down?
<BR>
<BR>Tom Oliver
<BR>[log in to unmask]
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT></HTML>
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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 14:35:27 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Stephen Brown <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Xyratex
Subject: Raw Card Cost Matrix.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I'm trying to design a costing matrix for raw cards so our designers can
estimate the costs of their raw card designs, this will hopefully slow
down their lust for technology and get them considering project budget
costs. Does anyone know of where I can access this information so I know
a basic cost / sq. inch and then add percentage costs for extra layers,
different surface finishes, impedance control, extra drilled holes and
if I use buried via's. Any information will be gratefully received.
Thanks.
Steve Brown.
Xyratex.
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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 14:40:45 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Geoff Layhe <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: current carrying capacity of PTH
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi All,
Does anyone have information such as formula, graphs etc regarding current
carrying capacity of plated through holes?
TIA
Geoff Layhe
www.lamar-uk.co.uk
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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:22:35 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Richard W Hinebaugh <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Raw Card Cost Matrix.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
I am in need of the same type of raw card information. Would you please
include me on any information? THank you!
RICH HINEBAUGH
ECAT (ELECTRONIC ASSEMBLY AND TEST) COST ENGINEER
OUTSOURCED STORAGE & COST ENGINEERING
PHONE 507-253-3470,TIE LINE 553-3470,FAX 507-253-2148
3055 41st ST NW
DEPT. 3A6,BLDG 664-1,E103
ROCHESTER,MN 55901
EMAIL: [log in to unmask]
What do you want to see when you look back on your life?
Stephen Brown
<[log in to unmask] To: [log in to unmask]
RATEX.COM> cc:
Sent by: TechNet Subject: [TN] Raw Card Cost Matrix.
<[log in to unmask]>
10/10/01 08:35 AM
Please respond to
"TechNet E-Mail
Forum."
I'm trying to design a costing matrix for raw cards so our designers can
estimate the costs of their raw card designs, this will hopefully slow
down their lust for technology and get them considering project budget
costs. Does anyone know of where I can access this information so I know
a basic cost / sq. inch and then add percentage costs for extra layers,
different surface finishes, impedance control, extra drilled holes and
if I use buried via's. Any information will be gratefully received.
Thanks.
Steve Brown.
Xyratex.
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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 07:25:29 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Crepeau, Phil" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Raw Card Cost Matrix.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
hi,
have you tried your board fabricator? this is how they do their pricing, and i've found that they are willing to share ratios if not absolute costs.
phil
-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Brown [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 6:35 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Raw Card Cost Matrix.
I'm trying to design a costing matrix for raw cards so our designers can
estimate the costs of their raw card designs, this will hopefully slow
down their lust for technology and get them considering project budget
costs. Does anyone know of where I can access this information so I know
a basic cost / sq. inch and then add percentage costs for extra layers,
different surface finishes, impedance control, extra drilled holes and
if I use buried via's. Any information will be gratefully received.
Thanks.
Steve Brown.
Xyratex.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:51:50 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "McGlaughlin, Jeffrey A" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Raw Card Cost Matrix.
X-To: "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Steve -
It is difficult (read as nearly impossible and highly improbable) to
generate a cost matrix for PCB/PWB if you work with more than one
fabricator. The cause for this is the large number of variables involved.
Some of the variables are the technology used in the design, market demand
at the time of order, materials, time to delivery, quantity, etc. Each of
the fabricators that I work with has a different calculator for determining
the prices of a given design, their NRE, and additional charges for testing
and shipping. Generally the variation in price is only a few hundred dollars
US , but I have seen variations in the cost quoted for a single design as
great as $10000us. Additionally, factors like the guarantee of follow on
production orders which can skew these numbers even more.
So much for the bad news, now for the tirade against bean-counters... >:^>
New technology *may* cost more than someone guessed in the planning
meetings, but it may be the only thing that allows you to meet schedule and
operational requirements set for the product. If you involved the designers
in the up-front planning of a new product development project, not after the
schematics and primary components have been selected and purchased it might
be possible to direct the project in to a less costly technology. To many
times I have seen the lead EE select a component because it is the "latest
and greatest" thing on the market, only to find out that it will push the
limits of layout and fabrication technology. Designers tend to be
conservative in our approach to development, we normally want to stay away
from the *bleeding edge* of our and our fabricators capabilities to
guarantee a successful design.
It may also be useful to look at cost effectivity of moving to a more
advanced design rule set, over the time involved in using a *less* expensive
technology. I often find that a savings of 1 or 2 man-weeks of my time far
exceeds the cost of the technology in the run of a small project.
Sorry - sore subject,
Jeffrey A. McGlaughlin CID
Sr. Designer
Battelle Memorial Institute
Columbus Ohio
[log in to unmask]
-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Brown [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 9:35 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Raw Card Cost Matrix.
I'm trying to design a costing matrix for raw cards so our designers can
estimate the costs of their raw card designs, this will hopefully slow
down their lust for technology and get them considering project budget
costs. Does anyone know of where I can access this information so I know
a basic cost / sq. inch and then add percentage costs for extra layers,
different surface finishes, impedance control, extra drilled holes and
if I use buried via's. Any information will be gratefully received.
Thanks.
Steve Brown.
Xyratex.
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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:54:43 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Howard Watson <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: ESD flooring ideas.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 00517C5887256AE1_="
This is a multipart message in MIME format.
--=_alternative 00517C5887256AE1_=
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Dear TechNetters,
Our PCB assembly area is being consolidated to another building, and I
have the opportunity to request some type of ESD floor coating over an
existing non-ESD tile flooring. What are your opinions on the best, most
reliable, and of course cheapest, method of ESD flooring? I am thinking
that removing the existing tile would not be a cost effective alternative.
We are moving out of a facility that had no ESD flooring, so improvements
should be easy to achieve. Thanks for the assistance.
Best regards,
Howard Watson
Manufacturing Engineer
AMETEK/Dixson
--=_alternative 00517C5887256AE1_=
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Dear TechNetters,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Our PCB assembly area is being consolidated to another building, and I have the opportunity to request some type of ESD floor coating over an existing non-ESD tile flooring. What are your opinions on the best, most reliable, and of course cheapest, method of ESD flooring? I am thinking that removing the existing tile would not be a cost effective alternative. We are moving out of a facility that had no ESD flooring, so improvements should be easy to achieve. Thanks for the assistance.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Best regards,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Howard Watson<br>
Manufacturing Engineer<br>
AMETEK/Dixson</font>
--=_alternative 00517C5887256AE1_=--
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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:15:25 +0300
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Brian Ellis <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ESD flooring ideas.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Howard
What kind of tiles? Some tile types may be ESD, if they are otherwise
suitable. How about testing before spending?
Brian
Howard Watson wrote:
>
> Dear TechNetters,
>
> Our PCB assembly area is being consolidated to another building, and I
> have the opportunity to request some type of ESD floor coating over an
> existing non-ESD tile flooring. What are your opinions on the best,
> most reliable, and of course cheapest, method of ESD flooring? I am
> thinking that removing the existing tile would not be a cost effective
> alternative. We are moving out of a facility that had no ESD
> flooring, so improvements should be easy to achieve. Thanks for the
> assistance.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Howard Watson
> Manufacturing Engineer
> AMETEK/Dixson
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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 08:28:44 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Elensky, Richard" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ESD flooring ideas.
X-To: Howard Watson <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Howard,
Test the tile before destroying. We have learned some flooring will
work as ESD flooring, although it's not marketed as such.
If you must install something, I would suggest an epoxy slurry floor
coating. The material is applied at 0.090" thick. Can be applied over
nearly ANYTHING. It fills cracks and small voids. They can add the
appropriate fixtures for grounding, as needed.
The finished product is durable enough for fork lift traffic. The
surface is non-slip, even wet. Installation was done over a weekend and it
took 4 days to fully cure.
Cost was around $2/sq. ft.
I believe it was a 3M product, it was several years ago.
Richard Elensky
Sr. Manufacturing Engineer
[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Tel: 559-292-1111 x246
Fax: 559-292-9355
Dantel
2991 North Argyle Ave.
Fresno, CA, 93727
Visit our web site at:
http:// www.dantel.com <http://www.dantel.com>
----------
From: Howard Watson [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 7:55 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] ESD flooring ideas.
Dear TechNetters,
Our PCB assembly area is being consolidated to another building, and
I have the opportunity to request some type of ESD floor coating over an
existing non-ESD tile flooring. What are your opinions on the best, most
reliable, and of course cheapest, method of ESD flooring? I am thinking
that removing the existing tile would not be a cost effective alternative.
We are moving out of a facility that had no ESD flooring, so improvements
should be easy to achieve. Thanks for the assistance.
Best regards,
Howard Watson
Manufacturing Engineer
AMETEK/Dixson
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=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:33:35 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Jason Gregory <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Thanks for the replies
Mime-Version: 1.0
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concerning the calculations on determining g-force measurements and so =
forth.
Here's the story. We're sending a FUJI CP-6 to Malaysia. The company's =
underwriter wanted to know what amount of force would the CP withstand =
inside of a crate. A Japanese tech told us "the FUJI can withstand blank, =
blank amount of g-force of pound on the kilogram". I know, I know, this =
doesn't make sense. I quoted him verbatim. I myself did not talk to him. =
All of this is relayed through a tech of ours who had the conversation. I =
would've said "Huhhhhhh???????" Anyway, I think the issue has been =
resolved.=20
Thanks for everyone's responses.
Jason Gregory
Software Specialist - NPI Group
SCI Systems/Plant 2
13000 S. Memorial Pkwy.
Huntsville, AL. 35803
(256) 882-4107 x3728
[log in to unmask]
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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 08:45:56 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Thorup, John" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ESD flooring ideas.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Howard
Please be careful with the old tile. Much of this stuff has an Asbestos
component or backing. Testing would be advised before disturbing it lest
you contaminate your whole plant.
John
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Elensky, Richard [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 8:29 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] ESD flooring ideas.
>
> Howard,
>
> Test the tile before destroying. We have learned some flooring
> will
> work as ESD flooring, although it's not marketed as such.
>
> If you must install something, I would suggest an epoxy slurry
> floor
> coating. The material is applied at 0.090" thick. Can be applied over
> nearly ANYTHING. It fills cracks and small voids. They can add the
> appropriate fixtures for grounding, as needed.
>
> The finished product is durable enough for fork lift traffic. The
> surface is non-slip, even wet. Installation was done over a weekend and
> it
> took 4 days to fully cure.
>
> Cost was around $2/sq. ft.
>
> I believe it was a 3M product, it was several years ago.
>
>
> Richard Elensky
> Sr. Manufacturing Engineer
> [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>
> Tel: 559-292-1111 x246
> Fax: 559-292-9355
>
> Dantel
> 2991 North Argyle Ave.
> Fresno, CA, 93727
> Visit our web site at:
> http:// www.dantel.com <http://www.dantel.com>
>
>
> ----------
> From: Howard Watson [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 7:55 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] ESD flooring ideas.
>
>
> Dear TechNetters,
>
> Our PCB assembly area is being consolidated to another building,
> and
> I have the opportunity to request some type of ESD floor coating over an
> existing non-ESD tile flooring. What are your opinions on the best, most
> reliable, and of course cheapest, method of ESD flooring? I am thinking
> that removing the existing tile would not be a cost effective alternative.
> We are moving out of a facility that had no ESD flooring, so improvements
> should be easy to achieve. Thanks for the assistance.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Howard Watson
> Manufacturing Engineer
> AMETEK/Dixson
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:30:01 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Estrada, Roland" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: current carrying capacity of PTH
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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Filled with the lead?
Vias?
Clad Copper thickness?
Plated Copper thickness of the hole by Class 1, 2 or 3?
Lots of questions to look at. I don't know of any charts.
You could calculate this to a certain condition by the circumference of the
nominal hole size, then by the thickness of the board. This would give you a
flat pattern of this area (X and y) then use the standard IPC current charts
from there.
Roland Estrada CID
Lockheed Martin - Dallas
-----Original Message-----
From: Geoff Layhe [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 8:41 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] current carrying capacity of PTH
Hi All,
Does anyone have information such as formula, graphs etc regarding current
carrying capacity of plated through holes?
TIA
Geoff Layhe
www.lamar-uk.co.uk
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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 08:56:36 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Greg Scott <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Cray Inc
Subject: Re: Raw Card Cost Matrix.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Well said Jeffrey,
I would like to also add that PWB size and shape can add cost by not utilizing
the full sq. area of a fabrication panel (usually 18.00 X 24.00 Inches)
Utilizing 80% of Panel versus 60% is an easy way to cut cost.
While board profile is being developed, how it relates to full usage of Panel
should always be part of the design requirements.
Greg Scott
Sr. Designer
Cray Inc.
"McGlaughlin, Jeffrey A" wrote:
> Steve -
>
> It is difficult (read as nearly impossible and highly improbable) to
> generate a cost matrix for PCB/PWB if you work with more than one
> fabricator. The cause for this is the large number of variables involved.
> Some of the variables are the technology used in the design, market demand
> at the time of order, materials, time to delivery, quantity, etc. Each of
> the fabricators that I work with has a different calculator for determining
> the prices of a given design, their NRE, and additional charges for testing
> and shipping. Generally the variation in price is only a few hundred dollars
> US , but I have seen variations in the cost quoted for a single design as
> great as $10000us. Additionally, factors like the guarantee of follow on
> production orders which can skew these numbers even more.
>
> So much for the bad news, now for the tirade against bean-counters... >:^>
>
> New technology *may* cost more than someone guessed in the planning
> meetings, but it may be the only thing that allows you to meet schedule and
> operational requirements set for the product. If you involved the designers
> in the up-front planning of a new product development project, not after the
> schematics and primary components have been selected and purchased it might
> be possible to direct the project in to a less costly technology. To many
> times I have seen the lead EE select a component because it is the "latest
> and greatest" thing on the market, only to find out that it will push the
> limits of layout and fabrication technology. Designers tend to be
> conservative in our approach to development, we normally want to stay away
> from the *bleeding edge* of our and our fabricators capabilities to
> guarantee a successful design.
>
> It may also be useful to look at cost effectivity of moving to a more
> advanced design rule set, over the time involved in using a *less* expensive
> technology. I often find that a savings of 1 or 2 man-weeks of my time far
> exceeds the cost of the technology in the run of a small project.
>
> Sorry - sore subject,
>
> Jeffrey A. McGlaughlin CID
> Sr. Designer
> Battelle Memorial Institute
> Columbus Ohio
> [log in to unmask]
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stephen Brown [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 9:35 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] Raw Card Cost Matrix.
>
> I'm trying to design a costing matrix for raw cards so our designers can
> estimate the costs of their raw card designs, this will hopefully slow
> down their lust for technology and get them considering project budget
> costs. Does anyone know of where I can access this information so I know
> a basic cost / sq. inch and then add percentage costs for extra layers,
> different surface finishes, impedance control, extra drilled holes and
> if I use buried via's. Any information will be gratefully received.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Steve Brown.
>
> Xyratex.
>
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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:57:12 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Hiteshew, Michael" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: FW: [TN] Question for the physics "gurus"
X-cc: "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>
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I fowarded this question to my physics instructor, Dr. Robert Sopka;
here's his response:
This is a collection of different quantities leading to one of those
"oranges-and-apples" problems. So let's try to sort out what's what!
Ok, here we go....
The term "g-force" is an unfortunate ambiguity often used by engineers. "g"
is the ACCELERATION due to gravity, and if one is, for example, subjected
to 3 g's, that means an ACCELERATION of 3 times 9.8 m/sec^2. Recall that
the acceleration due to gravity is the rate at which gravity changes the
velocity of a falling body.
Now we come to FORCE. Newton says that F=ma, i.e. a net force acting on an
object produces an acceleration in proportion to that object's mass. So
FORCE is related to ACCELERATION, but they are not the same thing! To get a
10 kg object to experience a 3 g acceleration requires twice the force that
a 5 kg object needs. Note that "kilograms" is a unit of mass - a measure
of the amount of matter in an object, whereas "pounds" is a unit of weight
- the force that gravity exerts on an object.
So to try to put it all together, if an object experiences an aceleration
of 3 g, one needs to know the mass (perhaps in kilograms) in order to
compute the force (F=ma). That force can then be converted to units of
pounds, upon looking up the appropriate conversion factor in your physics
book.
This is a good example of what happens when we get sloppy with definitions!
See ya....
Sopka
-----Original Message-----
From: Jason Gregory [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 12:01 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Question for the physics "gurus"
How do you convert pound/kilogram to G-force? Is this convertable? Since
G-force is somewhat time derived and pound/kilogram is force derived?
Any help is appreciated.
Jason Gregory
Software Specialist - NPI Group
SCI Systems/Plant 2
13000 S. Memorial Pkwy.
Huntsville, AL. 35803
(256) 882-4107 x3728
[log in to unmask]
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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:09:01 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Scott Kauling <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Tri-onics, Inc.
Subject: Recycling PWBs
Good Morning,
Does anyone have a source that they use to recycle or dispose of PWB's.
Scott Kauling
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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:08:29 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Neil Atkinson <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Question for the physics "gurus"
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Sorry, this seems to be going on forever but Pounds and Kilograms are both
measures of mass not weight, weight is a force - Newton and Pound-force are
measures of force e.g. the force exerted by an object of a given mass on the
ground due to the force of gravity (Weight).
Neil
-----Original Message-----
From: <Peter George Duncan> [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 10 October 2001 11:39
Subject: Re: Question for the physics "gurus"
Weight (pounds/kilograms) = mass x g, so you can't really convert weight to
g-force since g is already the factor giving weight to mass. You can
convert your pounds to kilograms (1kg = 2.204lbs), then divide by g
(9.81m/s/s) to get mass. You can divide the mass by its volume to get its
density.
What are you trying to calculate?
Peter Duncan
Jason Gregory
<Jason.Gregor To: [log in to unmask]
[log in to unmask]> cc: (bcc: DUNCAN Peter/Asst
Prin Engr/ST
Sent by: Aero/ST Group)
TechNet Subject: [TN] Question for the
physics "gurus"
<[log in to unmask]
ORG>
10/10/01
12:00 AM
Please
respond to
"TechNet
E-Mail
Forum."
How do you convert pound/kilogram to G-force? Is this convertable? Since
G-force is somewhat time derived and pound/kilogram is force derived?
Any help is appreciated.
Jason Gregory
Software Specialist - NPI Group
SCI Systems/Plant 2
13000 S. Memorial Pkwy.
Huntsville, AL. 35803
(256) 882-4107 x3728
[log in to unmask]
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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:14:19 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Ryan Grant <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: IMC'S - NO LONGER STIRRING THE POT
Hi Earl,
I didn't gather from Werner's comments that thick IMC's are good; rather
that thick IMC's are NOT bad. This is an important difference because the
pervasive industry "myth" is that thick IMC's are bad. Like you, I haven't
seen the lower limit defined.
Further, the major failure mechanism contributor is the lead layer. If this
layer is removed with each rework, then there is no limit to the number of
rework operations provided the pads are solderable. (of course, ignoring
board and pad damage). I have validated this through my own experiments
that compared BGA's seeing no rework on up to BGA's seeing six reworks and
then temp cycled. There was no correlation between joint failures and
rework cycles, but the IMC's did get visibly thicker.
I hope this answers two of your questions.
BTW, if Manko, Rahn, and Wassink do not agree, remember how the scientific
process works. A hypothesis is formed based on observations made up to that
point. The hypothesis is then tested and based on the observations of that
test, the hypothesis is either validated or invalidated.
The caveat is that the hypothesis must allow for all previous observations,
and any subsequent observation that invalidates the hypothesis requires that
the hypothesis be changed to reflect the new observation. The point being,
something that is published will only reflect the current wisdom at the time
of publication; and the scientific process allows for changes in past
wisdom. Meaning, Manko, Rahn, and Wassink reserve the right to change their
minds from whatever they may have published in the past.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Earl Moon [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 10:34 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] IMC'S - NO LONGER STIRRING THE POT
>
> Thanks folks for all your great input, but I'm still without a clear
> understanding of the IMC subject and may never be.
>
> It is not hard for me to get confused at my advanced age and congenital
> ignorance. I?m just not getting a consistent picture. Could someone paint
> it
> for me ? for us all. First, the following is what I think I know:
>
> 1) I should have said non-surface scientists (me especially) look at a
> surface as what it is apparent as an objects area having no depth.
>
> 2) Surface scientists clearly understand surface as definitely having
> depth
> down to the surface?s beginning (about 1,000 angstroms or so) and
> understand
> that atomic layers (not mono-layers ? very poorly put) comprise this
> ?depth
> to surface.?
>
> 3) Soldering is defined as the joining of two metal surfaces, with a
> solder
> medium (eutectic most commonly composed of tin-lead but changing to
> something lead free soon) requiring both diffusion and intermetallic
> formation (not Manko?s original definition) at temperatures below 800 F.
>
> 4) I know all processes are capable of being mis-managed including HASL. I
> just find it more difficult to manage effectively across so many
> suppliers.
> I'll not go farther with this. Each of us has to make a decision
> concerning
> a process and its effects.
>
> 5) I recognize that rework cycles, be they two or three, have more impact
> on
> circuit integrity as pad bond strength, etc. I still need to know how much
> is too much concerning intermetallic growth and its correlation to solder
> joint reliability.
>
> What follows is what?s confusing to me:
>
> 1) I THINK Werner says thick IMC formations are essential and good for
> reliable solder joints. Is this right?
>
> 2) Aside from board/pad damage, can there be too many soldering operations
> performed
>
> 3) Is there a maximum or minimum IMC thickness to assure reliable solder
> joints
>
> 4) Does Phil agree about IMC thickness
>
> 5) Does Peter Duncan agree about IMC thickness
>
> 6) Do Manko and Rahn agree
>
> 7) Is this what Wassink says and knows and is it converse to all the above
> except Werner
>
> The main reason I?m asking is to gain objective evidence concerning
> eutectic
> lead soldering techniques having been around since before the time of
> Christ. Then, I would like to apply some of this understanding to what
> concerns us all as lead free soldering using who knows what. So, this
> means,
> I?m really no longer interested in stirring the pot, nor am I interested
> in
> becoming an expert. I just want a handle on this stuff as there still
> seems
> to be too much opinion.
>
> I just want to learn more about what I once thought I knew a little
> something about.
>
> Earl Moon
>
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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:17:31 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Gary McCauley <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Recycling PWBs
MIME-Version: 1.0
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A couple. Where are you located.
gary mccauley
PC Boards, Inc.
-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Kauling [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 11:09 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Recycling PWBs
Good Morning,
Does anyone have a source that they use to recycle or dispose of PWB's.
Scott Kauling
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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 13:05:03 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Franck, George" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: current carrying capacity of PTH
MIME-Version: 1.0
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For a First order Approximation, use the Charts in the IPC-2221 Fig 6-4
"Conductor thickness and width for internal and external layers".
..... Where
the copper foil thickness in Fig 6-4. = plating thickness in the hole.
the Conductor width in Fig 6-4. = hole dia. * pi (3.141)
Example, Can a 13 mil hole with 1 mil copper plating carry one Amp?
Conductor width is 13* 3.1 = 40 mil
Conductor thickness is 1 mil
Using Fig B (of Fig 6.4):
Cross section in Sq. Mils = 30 (about that anyway)
Using Fig C (of Fig 6.4) Internal conductors:
An internal conductor of 30 Cross section in Sq. Mils will carry 1 amp and
experience a 20 deg C temperature rise.
Answer: A 13 mil hole with 1 mil copper plating will carry one Amp in most
applications.
For all the derating these charts have seen, this should give you a
conservative answer. We use this approach to determine the number of laser
vias needed to run power from one layer to the next. Using it, we have not
had any problems. On the other hand, we have not made any measurements, so
there is no supporting data. Just a warm feeling, ..... about 20 deg C.
George Franck, CID
who is hoping to be a CID++
-----Original Message-----
From: Estrada, Roland [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 11:30 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] current carrying capacity of PTH
Filled with the lead?
Vias?
Clad Copper thickness?
Plated Copper thickness of the hole by Class 1, 2 or 3?
Lots of questions to look at. I don't know of any charts.
You could calculate this to a certain condition by the circumference of the
nominal hole size, then by the thickness of the board. This would give you a
flat pattern of this area (X and y) then use the standard IPC current charts
from there.
Roland Estrada CID
Lockheed Martin - Dallas
-----Original Message-----
From: Geoff Layhe [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 8:41 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] current carrying capacity of PTH
Hi All,
Does anyone have information such as formula, graphs etc regarding current
carrying capacity of plated through holes?
TIA
Geoff Layhe
www.lamar-uk.co.uk
Private & Confidential:
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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 13:07:29 -0400
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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:23:09 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Genny Gibbard <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: FW: [TN] Question for the physics "gurus"
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Further to this, I was looking at this question a few months ago, when
trying to determine the height I needed to drop our product to test the
packaging design. It was supposed to survive a certain G-force.
G-force is related to acceleration as has already been stated. In my case,
I would have needed to know the length of time it took for the object to go
from its falling velocity (easily calculated from the acceleration of
gravity as stated in many of the responses already) to a full stop at
impact, in order to calculate the negative acceleration (the length of time
would have been in the milliseconds). The negative acceleration calculated
is then divided by the standard acceleration of gravity to determine the
'number of G's'.
I soon gave up on calculating this as it was outside my area of expertise
(I'm electrical, not mechanical) and I did not have the instrumentation to
measure the impact time. Luckily, a CM nearby had a vibration table and
some instrumentation that allowed a few reasonable actual measurements to be
taken by a mechanical consultant engineer we hired.
Proper packaging design reduces the number of G's your product experiences
because the cushioning prolongs the time for an object to come to rest from
an impact.
Regards,
Genny.
-----Original Message-----
From: Hiteshew, Michael [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: October 10, 2001 9:57 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] FW: [TN] Question for the physics "gurus"
I fowarded this question to my physics instructor, Dr. Robert Sopka;
here's his response:
This is a collection of different quantities leading to one of those
"oranges-and-apples" problems. So let's try to sort out what's what!
Ok, here we go....
The term "g-force" is an unfortunate ambiguity often used by engineers. "g"
is the ACCELERATION due to gravity, and if one is, for example, subjected
to 3 g's, that means an ACCELERATION of 3 times 9.8 m/sec^2. Recall that
the acceleration due to gravity is the rate at which gravity changes the
velocity of a falling body.
Now we come to FORCE. Newton says that F=ma, i.e. a net force acting on an
object produces an acceleration in proportion to that object's mass. So
FORCE is related to ACCELERATION, but they are not the same thing! To get a
10 kg object to experience a 3 g acceleration requires twice the force that
a 5 kg object needs. Note that "kilograms" is a unit of mass - a measure
of the amount of matter in an object, whereas "pounds" is a unit of weight
- the force that gravity exerts on an object.
So to try to put it all together, if an object experiences an aceleration
of 3 g, one needs to know the mass (perhaps in kilograms) in order to
compute the force (F=ma). That force can then be converted to units of
pounds, upon looking up the appropriate conversion factor in your physics
book.
This is a good example of what happens when we get sloppy with definitions!
See ya....
Sopka
-----Original Message-----
From: Jason Gregory [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 12:01 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Question for the physics "gurus"
How do you convert pound/kilogram to G-force? Is this convertable? Since
G-force is somewhat time derived and pound/kilogram is force derived?
Any help is appreciated.
Jason Gregory
Software Specialist - NPI Group
SCI Systems/Plant 2
13000 S. Memorial Pkwy.
Huntsville, AL. 35803
(256) 882-4107 x3728
[log in to unmask]
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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 12:56:40 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Marsico, James" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ESD flooring ideas.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
We just installed a rubber ESD floor which works great. The installer did
recommend that the old tiles be removed, though. It costs about $6.50/sq.
ft. for removal of the old tiles and installing the new.
Jim Marsico
Senior Engineer
Production Engineering
EDO Electronics Systems Group
[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
631-595-5879
-----Original Message-----
From: Howard Watson [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 10:55 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] ESD flooring ideas.
Dear TechNetters,
Our PCB assembly area is being consolidated to another building, and
I have the opportunity to request some type of ESD floor coating over an
existing non-ESD tile flooring. What are your opinions on the best, most
reliable, and of course cheapest, method of ESD flooring? I am thinking
that removing the existing tile would not be a cost effective alternative.
We are moving out of a facility that had no ESD flooring, so improvements
should be easy to achieve. Thanks for the assistance.
Best regards,
Howard Watson
Manufacturing Engineer
AMETEK/Dixson
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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:48:00 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: William Sullivan <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: bottom side heat sink attachment
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Hello Tec Netters,,,
Is there anyone out there that can point me in the right
direction to fabricating a bottom side aluminum heat sink that is part
of the pcb itself,, im really looking for process of attachment and
cost escalation.
Thanks Bill Sullivan
William Sullivan C.I.D
SR. PCB Design Engineer
Luminent Inc
20550 nordhoff St.
Chatsworth CA, 91311
818-773-9044 EX 2114
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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 12:58:32 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: IMC'S - NO LONGER STIRRING THE POT
X-To: Ryan Grant <[log in to unmask]>
Ryan,
I cannot thank you enough for such an excellent reply. Your comments and
demeanor in this posting are mind and heart felt but I?m still numb compared
with, say, twenty years ago when I ?really? had a handle on solder,
soldering, solderability, and the process management requirements to ensure
high quality/reliability product. The following are my responses to yours:
Ryan: I didn't gather from Werner's comments that thick IMC's are good; rather
that thick IMC's are NOT bad. This is an important difference because the
pervasive industry "myth" is that thick IMC's are bad. Like you, I haven't
seen the lower limit defined.
Me: At first, I thought Werner?s comments clearly implied that the thicker
the IMC, the better the solder joint in terms of initial quality and long
term reliability. After your observation, I?ll focus more on his truly
expert commentary. Still, as you have said, if thick is better, then how low
can you go and/or does it really matter? Of course it does if thicker means
better and that none means no ?wetting? ? pardon the term forever ingrained
in my mind for lack of one better. What, by the way is the best term today?
Ryan: Further, the major failure mechanism contributor is the lead layer. If
this
layer is removed with each rework, then there is no limit to the number of
rework operations provided the pads are solderable. (of course, ignoring
board and pad damage). I have validated this through my own experiments
that compared BGA's seeing no rework on up to BGA's seeing six reworks and
then temp cycled. There was no correlation between joint failures and
rework cycles, but the IMC's did get visibly thicker.
Me: I understand your comments here and find no objections, today, to their
accuracy. My question, now, turns to lead ? free solder medium types ? as
eutectics?. Can they be judged like lead when whatever metal takes its
place? I too have experimented much with extended rework cycles, especially
with BGA device types and came to the same conclusions but for clearly
understanding lead?s role in all this. Mostly, I found that using ?thick?
flux worked better than solder paste in the rework world and would like to
find a way to use it on their initial soldering processes (few voids, little
solder bridging, etc.) thereby alleviating most need for rework.
Ryan: I hope this answers two of your questions.
Me: It?s a great start and thanks again.
Ryan: BTW, if Manko, Rahn, and Wassink do not agree, remember how the scientific
process works. A hypothesis is formed based on observations made up to that
point. The hypothesis is then tested and based on the observations of that
test, the hypothesis is either validated or invalidated.
Me: My only issues here, though not with your comments, concern the time
soldering has been practiced both as an art form and a scientific or
industrial endeavor. It seems, at this point, there should be clear
scientific evidence (physical laws), beyond hypotheses, dispelling the need
for, at least, many more opinions on the subject. I still, as do we all, see
too many variations on this theme. I mean, how many more books, papers, and
articles are needed until we, at least, have consensus about what
constitutes and contributes to high quality/reliable solder joints ? though
I applaud everyone involved in the experimentation, writing, and implementation.
Ryan: The caveat is that the hypothesis must allow for all previous
observations,
and any subsequent observation that invalidates the hypothesis requires that
the hypothesis be changed to reflect the new observation. The point being,
something that is published will only reflect the current wisdom at the time
of publication; and the scientific process allows for changes in past
wisdom. Meaning, Manko, Rahn, and Wassink reserve the right to change their
minds from whatever they may have published in the past.
Me: I certainly have no problem with our soldering and scientific experts
changing their minds based on new research and the imperial evidence
effected by it. I have read nearly all books, papers, and articles
concerning soldering and all its contributory elements. I applaud continued
research in any such vital field. I thirst constantly for more objective
information in lieu of subjective opinions. Still, I see many, maybe too
many, differing opinions among experts and, especially, among those needing
to put the rubber to the road during solder joint processing. I conclude
from all this that solder joints can be very forgiving little devils. This
must be true even as I have great difficulty even ?seeing? 0201 solder
joints let alone accepting them based on this visual/invisible evidence.
Times were much simpler when ?wetting,? ?smooth,? and ?shiny? were terms
embraced and accepted by everyone in industry. Seems like only twenty or so
years ago ? yesterday to me.
Thanks again to all and especially you Ryan, Werner, Peter, and everyone
else posting and caring about such a serious subject,
MoonMan
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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:22:25 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: KK Chin <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: bottom side heat sink attachment
Mime-Version: 1.0
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If you don't want to use insulated metal substrate, you may try bonding your own
metal plate with bondply from Bergquist. The website is
www.bergquistcompany.com.
K.K. Chin
Artesyn Technologies,
Fremont, CA
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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 13:20:40 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Earl Moon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: bottom side heat sink attachment
X-To: William Sullivan <[log in to unmask]>
I first got involved doing this in the late 60's and early 70's doing
military MLB's. Some experiences good as attaching sink after fab not really
making the sink part of the board. Bad meant laminating the sinks, either
copper or aluminum, as part of the board. Bad because of obvious warpage issues.
Either aliminum or copper may be bonded to the MLB using "no-flow" prepreg
or some other adhesive. This method does not allow plated through holes as
part of the structure as does the laminated types.
We "etched" features in sinks up to 60 mils thick. Beyond that, "chem
milling," done outside, or machined sinks were made and attached.
You work in the heart of where most of this started many years ago. I don't
know what Methode/Bureau of Engraving is called now but they used to be up
your street not more than a couple of miles. Ambitech also resides there as
some others. All these folks did this at one time and should provide details
of the adventure.
A better way to get the heat out of some boards is to sandwich the sinks
internal to the board (up to ten ounce copper can be done this way) as part
of the MLB structure. This becomes a better solution as a balanced
construction is assured and heat pipes, as plated through holes, can be used
to get the heat to the edges and cold wall contacts, if required.
MoonMan
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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 15:05:39 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Shoda, Steve" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: bottom side heat sink attachment
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
We have a heatsink bonding process, if this is an option you are
considering. It uses materials such as an epoxy film from Ablestik
(310)764-2545 or a silicone rubber sheet from Arlon (302)834-2100.
-----Original Message-----
From: William Sullivan [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 12:48 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] bottom side heat sink attachment
Hello Tec Netters,,,
Is there anyone out there that can point me in the right
direction to fabricating a bottom side aluminum heat sink that is part
of the pcb itself,, im really looking for process of attachment and
cost escalation.
Thanks Bill Sullivan
William Sullivan C.I.D
SR. PCB Design Engineer
Luminent Inc
20550 nordhoff St.
Chatsworth CA, 91311
818-773-9044 EX 2114
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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 13:42:45 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Mcmaster, Michael" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: bottom side heat sink attachment
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Bill
Incorporating heat sinks into boards is one of my companies specialties.
What aspects would you like to know more about? Please feel free to contact
me off-line.
> ----------
> From: William Sullivan[SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Reply To: TechNet E-Mail Forum.
> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 10:48 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] bottom side heat sink attachment
>
> Hello Tec Netters,,,
>
> Is there anyone out there that can point me in the right
> direction to fabricating a bottom side aluminum heat sink that is part
> of the pcb itself,, im really looking for process of attachment and
> cost escalation.
>
> Thanks Bill Sullivan
>
> William Sullivan C.I.D
> SR. PCB Design Engineer
> Luminent Inc
> 20550 nordhoff St.
> Chatsworth CA, 91311
> 818-773-9044 EX 2114
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> additional
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>
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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 15:52:11 -0500
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Ashok Dhawan <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ESD flooring ideas.
In-Reply-To: <1BB7006CDCB0D3118F0300104B68201080E52D@PROORBANX1>
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Howard
I suggest you to discuss with Desco or 3M or Tech. Rep. of any other
supplier of ESD control products.
ESD Wax coating is one of the alternatives. You might require to re-wax the
floor every month or so . Ask them to provide you cost comparison with ESD
tiles or ESD paint.
Ashok
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Thorup, John
> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 10:46 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] ESD flooring ideas.
>
>
> Howard
> Please be careful with the old tile. Much of this stuff has an Asbestos
> component or backing. Testing would be advised before disturbing it lest
> you contaminate your whole plant.
> John
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Elensky, Richard [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 8:29 AM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: [TN] ESD flooring ideas.
> >
> > Howard,
> >
> > Test the tile before destroying. We have learned some flooring
> > will
> > work as ESD flooring, although it's not marketed as such.
> >
> > If you must install something, I would suggest an epoxy slurry
> > floor
> > coating. The material is applied at 0.090" thick. Can be applied over
> > nearly ANYTHING. It fills cracks and small voids. They can add the
> > appropriate fixtures for grounding, as needed.
> >
> > The finished product is durable enough for fork lift
> traffic. The
> > surface is non-slip, even wet. Installation was done over a weekend and
> > it
> > took 4 days to fully cure.
> >
> > Cost was around $2/sq. ft.
> >
> > I believe it was a 3M product, it was several years ago.
> >
> >
> > Richard Elensky
> > Sr. Manufacturing Engineer
> > [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> >
> > Tel: 559-292-1111 x246
> > Fax: 559-292-9355
> >
> > Dantel
> > 2991 North Argyle Ave.
> > Fresno, CA, 93727
> > Visit our web site at:
> > http:// www.dantel.com <http://www.dantel.com>
> >
> >
> > ----------
> > From: Howard Watson [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 7:55 AM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: [TN] ESD flooring ideas.
> >
> >
> > Dear TechNetters,
> >
> > Our PCB assembly area is being consolidated to another building,
> > and
> > I have the opportunity to request some type of ESD floor coating over an
> > existing non-ESD tile flooring. What are your opinions on the
> best, most
> > reliable, and of course cheapest, method of ESD flooring? I am thinking
> > that removing the existing tile would not be a cost effective
> alternative.
> > We are moving out of a facility that had no ESD flooring, so
> improvements
> > should be easy to achieve. Thanks for the assistance.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Howard Watson
> > Manufacturing Engineer
> > AMETEK/Dixson
> >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:16:33 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Werner Engelmaier <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Question for the physics "gurus"
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hi Brian,
I grew up with ISO paper sizes, and when I moved to the USA the paper sizes
here sure felt strange--but I got used to them. I can assure you ISO paper
documents are significantly more ackward to file in the USA than US documents
in ISO files. The ISO 2-ring binders with their 2 holes so close together
definitely are much worse than the 3-ring binders used here. I doubt you will
ever see ISO size paper here! :-)
On the other hand, on metric we seem to make 3 steps forward 3 back. :-(
Werner Engelmaier
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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 15:28:36 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Ken Patel <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: interWAVE Communications, Inc.
Subject: Re: Question for the physics "gurus"
MIME-Version: 1.0
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All,
If G force is the gravitation force acting on the object then why many times an object is
being designed to take so may G forces. What I have heard that voice recorder of the plane
that went down in Pennsylvania can take on 700G force! So, if the free fall is 1 G then why
design 700 times safer. So, height above the ground does matter. May be I got to take a look
at the physic's book unless someone explain in layman's term.
re,
Ken Patel
Timothy Reeves wrote:
> No Jason,
> I am not a guru, but that's OK. They are not interconvertible. One is a
> measure of force, the other acceleration (actually a dimensionless
> multiplier of the standard gravitational acceleration, g, 9.8 m/s^2). If you
> have an object in mind of a known mass, you could find the force exerted on
> it given the acceleration ("G's") by F = m a.
>
> Example: 100 gram object subjected to 5 G's ---------> F = 0.1 kg * 5 * 9.8
> m/s^2 = 4.9 Newtons or 0.5 kilogram force or 1.1 lb-force.
>
> Tim Reeves
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jason Gregory [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 9:01 AM
> Subject: Question for the physics "gurus"
>
> How do you convert pound/kilogram to G-force? Is this convertable? Since
> G-force is somewhat time derived and pound/kilogram is force derived?
> Any help is appreciated.
>
> Jason Gregory
> Software Specialist - NPI Group
> SCI Systems/Plant 2
> 13000 S. Memorial Pkwy.
> Huntsville, AL. 35803
> (256) 882-4107 x3728
> [log in to unmask]
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d
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> the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet
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> Please visit IPC web site (http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm) for additional
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> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:10:01 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Ryan Grant <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Question for the physics "gurus"
Hi Ken,
G-force is a comparison of what an object would weigh "if" it were subjected
to a gravitational pull that is X amount greater than what you feel on
earth.
In other words, when you are standing in the elevator waiting for the door
to close, everything is normal and you feel one (1) G-force. When the
elevator starts to move up, you feel a little heavier as if you either
suddenly gained a lot of weight, or the earth's gravity just got a lot
stronger. That is an increase in G-force.
You will then notice that after the elevator is moving, everything feels
normal again. You are now back to one (1) G-force.
The increase in G-force is due to the acceleration of the elevator from
speed 0 ft per second to 2 ft per second.
Depending on how much time it takes for the elevator to go from speed 0 ft
per second to 2 ft per second will depend on how heavy you will feel while
it gets up to speed. The faster it gets up to speed, the heavier you will
feel.
Notice that it doesn't matter what floor you start from. Whenever the
elevator goes up, you feel a little heavier at the start of the movement and
no longer feel heavier after the elevator gets up to a constant speed.
So height does not matter, only how long it take to go from one speed to the
next speed.
Imagine now that you are in this elevator one floor up from the basement and
the cable breaks. You suddenly drop and get up to a certain speed just
before hitting the bottom. You can imagine that when you hit the ground,
you would feel so heavy that your legs would not be able to hold you up.
You would have just experienced a really big G-force.
For an airplane doing 550 miles per hour and suddenly stopping in just a few
seconds or less, the G-forces would be even bigger than the elevator
example. The only two things that matter is the time it takes to stop, and
how fast it was going before slowing down.
I hope this helps
Kind Regards
Ryan Grant
Advanced Technology Engineer
MCMS
(208) 898-1145
[log in to unmask]
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ken Patel [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 4:29 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Question for the physics "gurus"
>
> All,
> If G force is the gravitation force acting on the object then why many
> times an object is
> being designed to take so may G forces. What I have heard that voice
> recorder of the plane
> that went down in Pennsylvania can take on 700G force! So, if the free
> fall is 1 G then why
> design 700 times safer. So, height above the ground does matter. May be I
> got to take a look
> at the physic's book unless someone explain in layman's term.
>
> re,
> Ken Patel
>
>
> Timothy Reeves wrote:
>
> > No Jason,
> > I am not a guru, but that's OK. They are not interconvertible. One is a
> > measure of force, the other acceleration (actually a dimensionless
> > multiplier of the standard gravitational acceleration, g, 9.8 m/s^2). If
> you
> > have an object in mind of a known mass, you could find the force exerted
> on
> > it given the acceleration ("G's") by F = m a.
> >
> > Example: 100 gram object subjected to 5 G's ---------> F = 0.1 kg * 5 *
> 9.8
> > m/s^2 = 4.9 Newtons or 0.5 kilogram force or 1.1 lb-force.
> >
> > Tim Reeves
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jason Gregory [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 9:01 AM
> > Subject: Question for the physics "gurus"
> >
> > How do you convert pound/kilogram to G-force? Is this convertable? Since
> > G-force is somewhat time derived and pound/kilogram is force derived?
> > Any help is appreciated.
> >
> > Jason Gregory
> > Software Specialist - NPI Group
> > SCI Systems/Plant 2
> > 13000 S. Memorial Pkwy.
> > Huntsville, AL. 35803
> > (256) 882-4107 x3728
> > [log in to unmask]
> >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
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> > To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text
> in
> > the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet
> > To temporarily halt delivery of Technet send the following message: SET
> Technet NOMAIL
> > Search previous postings at: www.ipc.org > On-Line Resources & Databases
> > E-mail Archives
> > Please visit IPC web site (http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm) for
> additional
> > information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-509-9700
> ext.5315
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
> Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d
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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:12:05 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Genny Gibbard <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Question for the physics "gurus"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Yes height does matter. Neglecting that an object can reach a terminal
velocity, due to its shape(ie a leaf or a feather will only fall so fast no
matter from how high it falls).
An object free falling 15m will be falling for 1.24 seconds (d=v*t or
=a*t*t, a=9.8, solve for t). At the end of 1.24 seconds, the velocity it is
travelling is 1.24*9.8= 12.15m/s. If it impacts the ground and comes to a
complete stop in 0.5 seconds (a long time to reach full stop), its negative
acceleration is 12.15/0.5=24.3m/s/s. Divide that by gravitational
acceleration, 24.3/9.8=2.48 or the object was subject to ~2.5 "G".
If it falls further, or has additional forces acting on it, like a jet
engine that will increase the acceleration rate, its velocity at point of
impact can be much higher, and the quicker it comes to a stop, (negative
acceleration) the higher the G force. It's the change in velocity that does
the damage.
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Patel [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: October 10, 2001 4:29 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Question for the physics "gurus"
All,
If G force is the gravitation force acting on the object then why many times
an object is
being designed to take so may G forces. What I have heard that voice
recorder of the plane
that went down in Pennsylvania can take on 700G force! So, if the free fall
is 1 G then why
design 700 times safer. So, height above the ground does matter. May be I
got to take a look
at the physic's book unless someone explain in layman's term.
re,
Ken Patel
Timothy Reeves wrote:
> No Jason,
> I am not a guru, but that's OK. They are not interconvertible. One is a
> measure of force, the other acceleration (actually a dimensionless
> multiplier of the standard gravitational acceleration, g, 9.8 m/s^2). If
you
> have an object in mind of a known mass, you could find the force exerted
on
> it given the acceleration ("G's") by F = m a.
>
> Example: 100 gram object subjected to 5 G's ---------> F = 0.1 kg * 5 *
9.8
> m/s^2 = 4.9 Newtons or 0.5 kilogram force or 1.1 lb-force.
>
> Tim Reeves
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jason Gregory [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 9:01 AM
> Subject: Question for the physics "gurus"
>
> How do you convert pound/kilogram to G-force? Is this convertable? Since
> G-force is somewhat time derived and pound/kilogram is force derived?
> Any help is appreciated.
>
> Jason Gregory
> Software Specialist - NPI Group
> SCI Systems/Plant 2
> 13000 S. Memorial Pkwy.
> Huntsville, AL. 35803
> (256) 882-4107 x3728
> [log in to unmask]
>
>
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>
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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 20:50:30 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Werner Engelmaier <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: IMC'S - NO LONGER STIRRING THE POT
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hi Ryan & Earl,
Ryan got it right--thicker IMCs are not better, it is just not the big 'bad'
deal some people make it out to be. Any evidence of an IMC layer is proof of
a metalurgical bond to the base metal; so thicker does not proof anything
further about proper 'wetting.' For some base mtals, in particular
electrolytic Ni and Alloy 42, it is difficult to get any good indication of
IMCs.
The thicker the IMC layer(s), the more Sn has been used up from the adjacent
solder region and the more Pb-rich region is present. However, there is no
evidence that that has a measurable bad effect [as rework cycle experiments
have shown]--but clearly it is not better. One of the reasons why thin HASL
layers have a limited shelf life, is that the outer surface contains a layer
of non-solderable Pb-oxide and the layer underneath is too Pb-rich--and
therefore has a higher Liquidus temperature--and does not reach a
sufficiently low viscosity during reflow to break up and sweep away the
Pb-oxide layer [this mechanism was pointed out by Colin Lea].
While I agree that "Times were much simpler when ?wetting,? ?smooth,? and
?shiny? were terms embraced and accepted by everyone in industry," they were
definitely not better--also we did not push the envelope as much as now.
Also remember, there are experts and then there are 'experts.' Lots of
practical experience does not guarantee scientific understanding and vice
versa.
Werner Engelmaier
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Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 10:49:52 +0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "<Peter George Duncan>" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: current carrying capacity of PTH
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
If you know the plating thickness in the through hole, calculate the cross
sectional area of the plating using
Pi*r1^2 - Pi*r2^2 where Pi = 22/7 or 3.1428, r1 is the drill hole radius
and r2 is the finished hole radius. Then just look up what the current
carrying capacity of copper is in Amps per unit of cross-sectional area in
cm^2 and multiply the two figures together.
Peter Duncan
Geoff Layhe
<glayhe@LAMAR To: [log in to unmask]
-UK.CO.UK> cc: (bcc: DUNCAN Peter/Asst Prin Engr/ST
Sent by: Aero/ST Group)
TechNet Subject: [TN] current carrying capacity of PTH
<[log in to unmask]
ORG>
10/10/01
09:40 PM
Please
respond to
"TechNet
E-Mail
Forum."
Hi All,
Does anyone have information such as formula, graphs etc regarding current
carrying capacity of plated through holes?
TIA
Geoff Layhe
www.lamar-uk.co.uk
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Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:13:06 +0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "<Peter George Duncan>" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: bottom side heat sink attachment
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
It is possible to treat the heatsink as another PCB layer to be pressed to
the rest of the board using pre-preg. If you need the heatsink to be
electrically conductive, don't anodise it, but rather alchromate it
instead, but still watch how thick you allow the alchromation to get, as it
will also increase electrical resistance. It doesn't matter if it's just
thermal conductivity you want, or even just mechanical stiffness, but you
will have to passivate the aluminium surface somehow, though.
Talk to your fab house. My old slave pit in the UK did this with PTH
technology boards many years ago to provide heatladders for
conduction-cooled boards.
Peter Duncan
William Sullivan
<wsullivan@LUMINE To: [log in to unmask]
NTINC.COM> cc: (bcc: DUNCAN Peter/Asst Prin Engr/ST
Sent by: TechNet Aero/ST Group)
<[log in to unmask]> Subject: [TN] bottom side heat sink attachment
10/11/01 01:48 AM
Please respond to
"TechNet E-Mail
Forum."
Hello Tec Netters,,,
Is there anyone out there that can point me in the right
direction to fabricating a bottom side aluminum heat sink that is part
of the pcb itself,, im really looking for process of attachment and
cost escalation.
Thanks Bill Sullivan
William Sullivan C.I.D
SR. PCB Design Engineer
Luminent Inc
20550 nordhoff St.
Chatsworth CA, 91311
818-773-9044 EX 2114
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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 23:37:14 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Bill Davis <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ESD flooring ideas.
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hey Howard,
"Ground Zero" offers an excellent ESD flooring tile. They charge a reasonable
price and offer a large variety of colors. We did our whole SMT department
with it and love it.
Contact me if you need or want any info on it.
Bill Davis
Thermo Assembly & Test.
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Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:41:28 +0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "<Peter George Duncan>" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Question for the physics "gurus"
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Ken,
It's not the 1g acceleration of a falling object that kills, it's the rate
of DEcelleration when said object hits terra firma that's the nuisance.
Acceleration is rate of change of velocity, so in going from very fast to
dead stop is next to no time, your decelleration (negative acceleration) is
going to be very high. When factored against normal 1g acceleration, the
figure you get is the number of g's acceleration you flight recorder has to
withstand.
Say an object hits the ground at 500 mph. That's 223.5m/s. Lets say it
takes 35 milliseconds to reach a dead stop from that speed: 223.5/0.035 = a
negative acceleration of 6386 m/s/s. Divide this by 9.8 (normal
acceleration due to gravity) and you have the number of g's (approx 650 in
this case).
Still need your physics book?
Peter Duncan
Peter Duncan
Ken Patel
<[log in to unmask] To: [log in to unmask]
OM> cc: (bcc: DUNCAN Peter/Asst Prin Engr/ST
Sent by: Aero/ST Group)
TechNet Subject: Re: [TN] Question for the physics
<[log in to unmask] "gurus"
ORG>
10/11/01
06:28 AM
Please
respond to
"TechNet
E-Mail
Forum."
All,
If G force is the gravitation force acting on the object then why many
times an object is
being designed to take so may G forces. What I have heard that voice
recorder of the plane
that went down in Pennsylvania can take on 700G force! So, if the free fall
is 1 G then why
design 700 times safer. So, height above the ground does matter. May be I
got to take a look
at the physic's book unless someone explain in layman's term.
re,
Ken Patel
Timothy Reeves wrote:
> No Jason,
> I am not a guru, but that's OK. They are not interconvertible. One is a
> measure of force, the other acceleration (actually a dimensionless
> multiplier of the standard gravitational acceleration, g, 9.8 m/s^2). If
you
> have an object in mind of a known mass, you could find the force exerted
on
> it given the acceleration ("G's") by F = m a.
>
> Example: 100 gram object subjected to 5 G's ---------> F = 0.1 kg * 5 *
9.8
> m/s^2 = 4.9 Newtons or 0.5 kilogram force or 1.1 lb-force.
>
> Tim Reeves
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jason Gregory [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 9:01 AM
> Subject: Question for the physics "gurus"
>
> How do you convert pound/kilogram to G-force? Is this convertable? Since
> G-force is somewhat time derived and pound/kilogram is force derived?
> Any help is appreciated.
>
> Jason Gregory
> Software Specialist - NPI Group
> SCI Systems/Plant 2
> 13000 S. Memorial Pkwy.
> Huntsville, AL. 35803
> (256) 882-4107 x3728
> [log in to unmask]
>
>
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Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:07:48 +0300
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Brian Ellis <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Question for the physics "gurus"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Ken
I'm damned sure that the black orange box may fall with an acceleration
of 1 g, up to when air resistance starts to slow it down, but if it
lands on a concrete road, it will decelerate at a very high value of g,
depending on the give in the concrete and the box itself. It's all a
matter of kinetic energy which is dissipated quasi-instantaneously. The
g-value would be lower if it landed on somebody's head, because the
latter being squashed down to the mid-torso would allow the acquired
energy from the free fall to be better dissipated. No mental energy
would be dissipated in such a case as the skull contents would be heated
to dissociation of the grey matter molecules into other carbon and
hydrogen combinations.
Brian
Ken Patel wrote:
>
> All,
> If G force is the gravitation force acting on the object then why many times an object is
> being designed to take so may G forces. What I have heard that voice recorder of the plane
> that went down in Pennsylvania can take on 700G force! So, if the free fall is 1 G then why
> design 700 times safer. So, height above the ground does matter. May be I got to take a look
> at the physic's book unless someone explain in layman's term.
>
> re,
> Ken Patel
>
> Timothy Reeves wrote:
>
> > No Jason,
> > I am not a guru, but that's OK. They are not interconvertible. One is a
> > measure of force, the other acceleration (actually a dimensionless
> > multiplier of the standard gravitational acceleration, g, 9.8 m/s^2). If you
> > have an object in mind of a known mass, you could find the force exerted on
> > it given the acceleration ("G's") by F = m a.
> >
> > Example: 100 gram object subjected to 5 G's ---------> F = 0.1 kg * 5 * 9.8
> > m/s^2 = 4.9 Newtons or 0.5 kilogram force or 1.1 lb-force.
> >
> > Tim Reeves
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jason Gregory [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 9:01 AM
> > Subject: Question for the physics "gurus"
> >
> > How do you convert pound/kilogram to G-force? Is this convertable? Since
> > G-force is somewhat time derived and pound/kilogram is force derived?
> > Any help is appreciated.
> >
> > Jason Gregory
> > Software Specialist - NPI Group
> > SCI Systems/Plant 2
> > 13000 S. Memorial Pkwy.
> > Huntsville, AL. 35803
> > (256) 882-4107 x3728
> > [log in to unmask]
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d
> > To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in
> > the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet
> > To temporarily halt delivery of Technet send the following message: SET Technet NOMAIL
> > Search previous postings at: www.ipc.org > On-Line Resources & Databases > E-mail Archives
> > Please visit IPC web site (http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm) for additional
> > information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-509-9700 ext.5315
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:20:36 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Peter Swanson <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Question for the physics "gurus"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Werner,
Is that a metric step or an imperial step? <g>
Peter
--
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Peter Swanson Oxfordshire, England
Dynamix Technology Ltd
IPC Standards, Guidelines & Videos - Electronics Manufacturing Bookshop
[log in to unmask] http://www.dynamixtechnology.com
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
-----Original Message-----
From: Werner Engelmaier [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 10 October 2001 22:17
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Question for the physics "gurus"
Hi Brian,
I grew up with ISO paper sizes, and when I moved to the USA the paper sizes
here sure felt strange--but I got used to them. I can assure you ISO paper
documents are significantly more ackward to file in the USA than US
documents
in ISO files. The ISO 2-ring binders with their 2 holes so close together
definitely are much worse than the 3-ring binders used here. I doubt you
will
ever see ISO size paper here! :-)
On the other hand, on metric we seem to make 3 steps forward 3 back. :-(
Werner Engelmaier
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Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 08:00:35 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Bissonnette, Jean-Francois" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Question for the physics "gurus"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
We already said that the value of g is 9.81(m/s)/s. That's an accelaration
value. Say that an object falls for 10 sec before touching ground, then
it's speed will be (if we neglect air friction which in this case I think
would be neglectible anyway) 98.1 m/s. If you consider the acceleration
formula which is a= dv/dt ("d" standing for delta or variation)you'll get
an acceleration of -98.1(m/s)/s if you slow down your object in one second.
That is 10 times earth's g or 10G.
Now it's easy to get a much more important g force on an object. Imagine
you let your coffee mug fall for one second, it will get to a speed of
9.81m/s. If at the end of that second, concreet floor awaits, it will
only take a fraction of second before it's stoped, say 1/10 of a second
(probably conservative). Then again your poor little mug will endure
10g's... and will be blown to bits!
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Ellis [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 2:08 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Question for the physics "gurus"
Ken
I'm damned sure that the black orange box may fall with an acceleration
of 1 g, up to when air resistance starts to slow it down, but if it
lands on a concrete road, it will decelerate at a very high value of g,
depending on the give in the concrete and the box itself. It's all a
matter of kinetic energy which is dissipated quasi-instantaneously. The
g-value would be lower if it landed on somebody's head, because the
latter being squashed down to the mid-torso would allow the acquired
energy from the free fall to be better dissipated. No mental energy
would be dissipated in such a case as the skull contents would be heated
to dissociation of the grey matter molecules into other carbon and
hydrogen combinations.
Brian
Ken Patel wrote:
>
> All,
> If G force is the gravitation force acting on the object then why many
times an object is
> being designed to take so may G forces. What I have heard that voice
recorder of the plane
> that went down in Pennsylvania can take on 700G force! So, if the free
fall is 1 G then why
> design 700 times safer. So, height above the ground does matter. May be I
got to take a look
> at the physic's book unless someone explain in layman's term.
>
> re,
> Ken Patel
>
> Timothy Reeves wrote:
>
> > No Jason,
> > I am not a guru, but that's OK. They are not interconvertible. One is a
> > measure of force, the other acceleration (actually a dimensionless
> > multiplier of the standard gravitational acceleration, g, 9.8 m/s^2). If
you
> > have an object in mind of a known mass, you could find the force exerted
on
> > it given the acceleration ("G's") by F = m a.
> >
> > Example: 100 gram object subjected to 5 G's ---------> F = 0.1 kg * 5 *
9.8
> > m/s^2 = 4.9 Newtons or 0.5 kilogram force or 1.1 lb-force.
> >
> > Tim Reeves
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jason Gregory [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 9:01 AM
> > Subject: Question for the physics "gurus"
> >
> > How do you convert pound/kilogram to G-force? Is this convertable? Since
> > G-force is somewhat time derived and pound/kilogram is force derived?
> > Any help is appreciated.
> >
> > Jason Gregory
> > Software Specialist - NPI Group
> > SCI Systems/Plant 2
> > 13000 S. Memorial Pkwy.
> > Huntsville, AL. 35803
> > (256) 882-4107 x3728
> > [log in to unmask]
> >
> >
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> > information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-509-9700
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> >
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>
>
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Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:55:06 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Sarrouf, Michael" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Question for the physics "gurus"
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Ken,
Coming from a Pilot's stand point. There is no way an aircraft could pull
700g's. 7G's yes. People black out at 4.5-5g's if they are not wearing a
Gsuit like the military pilots wear. Military pilots can pull up to 9g's but
they are wearing the Gsuit. Most commercial aircraft might have the
structural strength to with stand a 16G load Factor. At 700G's a person
weighing 150lbs would weigh 35,000lbs.
Are you sure it was not 7G's the aircraft was pulling??
Mike
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ken Patel [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 6:29 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Question for the physics "gurus"
>
> All,
> If G force is the gravitation force acting on the object then why many
> times an object is
> being designed to take so may G forces. What I have heard that voice
> recorder of the plane
> that went down in Pennsylvania can take on 700G force! So, if the free
> fall is 1 G then why
> design 700 times safer. So, height above the ground does matter. May be I
> got to take a look
> at the physic's book unless someone explain in layman's term.
>
> re,
> Ken Patel
>
>
> Timothy Reeves wrote:
>
> > No Jason,
> > I am not a guru, but that's OK. They are not interconvertible. One is a
> > measure of force, the other acceleration (actually a dimensionless
> > multiplier of the standard gravitational acceleration, g, 9.8 m/s^2). If
> you
> > have an object in mind of a known mass, you could find the force exerted
> on
> > it given the acceleration ("G's") by F = m a.
> >
> > Example: 100 gram object subjected to 5 G's ---------> F = 0.1 kg * 5 *
> 9.8
> > m/s^2 = 4.9 Newtons or 0.5 kilogram force or 1.1 lb-force.
> >
> > Tim Reeves
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jason Gregory [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 9:01 AM
> > Subject: Question for the physics "gurus"
> >
> > How do you convert pound/kilogram to G-force? Is this convertable? Since
> > G-force is somewhat time derived and pound/kilogram is force derived?
> > Any help is appreciated.
> >
> > Jason Gregory
> > Software Specialist - NPI Group
> > SCI Systems/Plant 2
> > 13000 S. Memorial Pkwy.
> > Huntsville, AL. 35803
> > (256) 882-4107 x3728
> > [log in to unmask]
> >
> >
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<TITLE>RE: [TN] Question for the physics "gurus"</TITLE>
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<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Ken,</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Coming from a =
Pilot's stand point. There is no way an aircraft could pull 700g's. =
7G's yes. People black out at 4.5-5g's if they are not wearing a Gsuit =
like the military pilots wear. Military pilots can pull up to 9g's but =
they are wearing the Gsuit. Most commercial aircraft might have =
the structural strength to with stand a 16G load Factor. At 700G's a =
person weighing 150lbs would weigh 35,000lbs. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Are you sure it was =
not 7G's the aircraft was pulling??</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Mike</FONT>
</P>
<UL>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">From: </FONT></B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Ken Patel [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Sent: </FONT></B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Wednesday, October 10, 2001 6:29 PM</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">To: </FONT></B> <FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">[log in to unmask]</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Subject: </FONT>=
</B> <FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Re: [TN] Question for the physics =
"gurus"</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">All,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">If G force is the gravitation force =
acting on the object then why many times an object is</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">being designed to take so may G =
forces. What I have heard that voice recorder of the plane</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">that went down in Pennsylvania can =
take on 700G force! So, if the free fall is 1 G then why</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">design 700 times safer. So, height =
above the ground does matter. May be I got to take a look</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">at the physic's book unless someone =
explain in layman's term.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">re,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Ken Patel</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Timothy Reeves wrote:</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">> No Jason,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">> I am not a guru, but that's OK. =
They are not interconvertible. One is a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">> measure of force, the other =
acceleration (actually a dimensionless</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">> multiplier of the standard =
gravitational acceleration, g, 9.8 m/s^2). If you</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">> have an object in mind of a =
known mass, you could find the force exerted on</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">> it given the acceleration =
("G's") by F =3D m a.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">> Example: 100 gram object =
subjected to 5 G's ---------> F =3D 0.1 kg * 5 * 9.8</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">> m/s^2 =3D 4.9 Newtons or 0.5 =
kilogram force or 1.1 lb-force.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">> Tim Reeves</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">> -----Original =
Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">> From: Jason Gregory =
[<U></U></FONT><U><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"><A =
HREF=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]</A></=
FONT></U><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">> Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 =
9:01 AM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">> Subject: Question for the =
physics "gurus"</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">> How do you convert pound/kilogram=
to G-force? Is this convertable? Since</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">> G-force is somewhat time derived =
and pound/kilogram is force derived?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">> Any help is appreciated.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">> Jason Gregory</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">> Software Specialist - NPI =
Group</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">> SCI Systems/Plant 2</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">> 13000 S. Memorial Pkwy.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">> Huntsville, AL. 35803</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">> (256) 882-4107 x3728</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">> [log in to unmask]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">> =
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Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 10:16:46 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Phil Nutting <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: failing capacitors
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Here is an interesting question.
We use Roederstein film capacitors (through hole configuration) in many
of our boards. Typically all boards are run through our wave solder
machine with the same recipe. The weird thing is that some of these
caps fail either open or shorted but only on the boards belonging to one
design engineer. Is this "full moon residue", a circuit design issue or
is it possible a regular failure that no one else is complaining about?
We keep track of our test failures and if this were happening on many
other boards we should be seeing the data, but there is none.
I'm interested in what your thoughts may be.
Thanks in advance.
Phil Nutting
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Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:26:42 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
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From: Kathy Kuhlow <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: failing capacitors
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Are the caps that fail consistent in regards to locatioon per assembly? =
Have any of the caps been had soldered or near a location that may have =
had a secondardy solder fountain process performed?
Kathy=20
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<DIV>Are the caps that fail consistent in regards to locatioon per
assembly? Have any of the caps been had soldered or near a location that
may have had a secondardy solder fountain process performed?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 08:33:16 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Barry Gallegos <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: PCB FLAME RATINGS
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Good morning Tech Net.
I have a question in regards to UL Flame ratings for PCB's. My incoming
inspectors have asked me what the difference is between 94V-0 and 94V-1.
any help is appreciated.
Thank you in advance.
Barry Gallegos
Process Engineer
Western Electronics
1550 South Tech Lane
Meridian, Idaho 83642
Phone: 208/955-9771
Fax: 208/955-9755
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Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:32:44 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Eric Christison <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Question for the physics "gurus"
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> Ken,
>
> Coming from a Pilot's stand point. There is no way an aircraft could
> pull
> 700g's. 7G's yes. People black out at 4.5-5g's if they are not wearing a
> Gsuit like the military pilots wear. Military pilots can pull up to 9g's
> but
> they are wearing the Gsuit. Most commercial aircraft might have the
> structural strength to with stand a 16G load Factor. At 700G's a person
> weighing 150lbs would weigh 35,000lbs.
> Are you sure it was not 7G's the aircraft was pulling??
>
> Mike
>
Mike,
The 700G's is pulled when the aircraft decelerates from >400 mph to 0 mph in
a distance of about 1ft as it hits the ground.
To get back to a more PCB related theme. One phone manufacturer has
specified that devices in their phone must withstand a 1500g shock. That
comes from measured values of deceleration at moment of impact between a
phone and the ground when dropped from ear height.
To get away from PCB's again FYI an artillery shell sees about 20000 G as it
travels up the barrel.....
Regards,
Eric Christison
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Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 10:48:51 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
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From: Phil Nutting <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: failing capacitors
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On the boards/caps that fail it typically is always the same one. There
are no second processes that I know of that might cause other damage.
-----Original Message-----
From: Kathy Kuhlow [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 10:27 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] failing capacitors
Are the caps that fail consistent in regards to locatioon per assembly?
Have any of the caps been had soldered or near a location that may have
had a secondardy solder fountain process performed?
Kathy=20
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Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:45:31 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
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From: Tim Weller <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Question for the physics "gurus"
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It's not the in-flight stresses, it's the sudden impact with the ground.
"Sarrouf, Michael" wrote:
>
>
> Ken,
>
> Coming from a Pilot's stand point. There is no way an aircraft could
> pull 700g's. 7G's yes. People black out at 4.5-5g's if they are not
> wearing a Gsuit like the military pilots wear. Military pilots can
> pull up to 9g's but they are wearing the Gsuit. Most commercial
> aircraft might have the structural strength to with stand a 16G load
> Factor. At 700G's a person weighing 150lbs would weigh 35,000lbs.
>
> Are you sure it was not 7G's the aircraft was pulling??
>
> Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ken Patel [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 6:29 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Question for the physics "gurus"
>
> All,
> If G force is the gravitation force acting on the object then why
> many times an object is
> being designed to take so may G forces. What I have heard that
> voice recorder of the plane
> that went down in Pennsylvania can take on 700G force! So, if the
> free fall is 1 G then why
> design 700 times safer. So, height above the ground does matter.
> May be I got to take a look
> at the physic's book unless someone explain in layman's term.
>
> re,
> Ken Patel
>
> Timothy Reeves wrote:
>
> > No Jason,
> > I am not a guru, but that's OK. They are not interconvertible.
> One is a
> > measure of force, the other acceleration (actually a
> dimensionless
> > multiplier of the standard gravitational acceleration, g, 9.8
> m/s^2). If you
> > have an object in mind of a known mass, you could find the
> force exerted on
> > it given the acceleration ("G's") by F = m a.
> >
> > Example: 100 gram object subjected to 5 G's ---------> F = 0.1
> kg * 5 * 9.8
> > m/s^2 = 4.9 Newtons or 0.5 kilogram force or 1.1 lb-force.
> >
> > Tim Reeves
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jason Gregory [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 9:01 AM
> > Subject: Question for the physics "gurus"
> >
> > How do you convert pound/kilogram to G-force? Is this
> convertable? Since
> > G-force is somewhat time derived and pound/kilogram is force
> derived?
> > Any help is appreciated.
> >
> > Jason Gregory
> > Software Specialist - NPI Group
> > SCI Systems/Plant 2
> > 13000 S. Memorial Pkwy.
> > Huntsville, AL. 35803
> > (256) 882-4107 x3728
> > [log in to unmask]
> >
> >
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It's not the in-flight stresses, it's the sudden impact with the ground.
<p>"Sarrouf, Michael" wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>
<p><font face="Arial"><font color="#0000FF"><font size=-1>Ken,</font></font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font color="#0000FF"><font size=-1>Coming from a
Pilot's stand point. There is no way an aircraft could pull 700g's. 7G's
yes. People black out at 4.5-5g's if they are not wearing a Gsuit like
the military pilots wear. Military pilots can pull up to 9g's but they
are wearing the Gsuit. Most commercial aircraft might have the structural
strength to with stand a 16G load Factor. At 700G's a person weighing 150lbs
would weigh 35,000lbs.</font></font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font color="#0000FF"><font size=-1>Are you sure
it was not 7G's the aircraft was pulling??</font></font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font color="#0000FF"><font size=-1>Mike</font></font></font>
<ul><font face="Arial"><font size=-2>-----Original Message-----</font></font>
<br><b><font face="Arial"><font size=-2>From: </font></font></b>
<font face="Arial"><font size=-2>Ken Patel [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]</font></font>
<br><b><font face="Arial"><font size=-2>Sent: </font></font></b>
<font face="Arial"><font size=-2>Wednesday, October 10, 2001 6:29 PM</font></font>
<br><b><font face="Arial"><font size=-2>To: </font></font></b>
<font face="Arial"><font size=-2>[log in to unmask]</font></font>
<br><b><font face="Arial"><font size=-2>Subject: </font></font></b>
<font face="Arial"><font size=-2>Re: [TN] Question for the physics "gurus"</font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>All,</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>If G force is the gravitation force
acting on the object then why many times an object is</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>being designed to take so may G forces.
What I have heard that voice recorder of the plane</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>that went down in Pennsylvania can
take on 700G force! So, if the free fall is 1 G then why</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>design 700 times safer. So, height
above the ground does matter. May be I got to take a look</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>at the physic's book unless someone
explain in layman's term.</font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>re,</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Ken Patel</font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Timothy Reeves wrote:</font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> No Jason,</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> I am not a guru, but that's OK.
They are not interconvertible. One is a</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> measure of force, the other acceleration
(actually a dimensionless</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> multiplier of the standard gravitational
acceleration, g, 9.8 m/s^2). If you</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> have an object in mind of a known
mass, you could find the force exerted on</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> it given the acceleration ("G's")
by F = m a.</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>></font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> Example: 100 gram object subjected
to 5 G's ---------> F = 0.1 kg * 5 * 9.8</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> m/s^2 = 4.9 Newtons or 0.5 kilogram
force or 1.1 lb-force.</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>></font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> Tim Reeves</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>></font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> -----Original Message-----</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> From: Jason Gregory [<u><font color="#0000FF"><a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]</a></font></u>]</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001
9:01 AM</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> Subject: Question for the physics
"gurus"</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>></font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> How do you convert pound/kilogram
to G-force? Is this convertable? Since</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> G-force is somewhat time derived
and pound/kilogram is force derived?</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> Any help is appreciated.</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>></font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> Jason Gregory</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> Software Specialist - NPI Group</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> SCI Systems/Plant 2</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> 13000 S. Memorial Pkwy.</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> Huntsville, AL. 35803</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> (256) 882-4107 x3728</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> [log in to unmask]</font></font>
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Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 07:57:34 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
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From: "Crepeau, Phil" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Question for the physics "gurus"
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hi,
it's not the fall from 30,000 that kills you, it's the sudden stop at the end.
phil
-----Original Message-----
From: Sarrouf, Michael [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 6:55 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Question for the physics "gurus"
Ken,
Coming from a Pilot's stand point. There is no way an aircraft could pull 700g's. 7G's yes. People black out at 4.5-5g's if they are not wearing a Gsuit like the military pilots wear. Military pilots can pull up to 9g's but they are wearing the Gsuit. Most commercial aircraft might have the structural strength to with stand a 16G load Factor. At 700G's a person weighing 150lbs would weigh 35,000lbs.
Are you sure it was not 7G's the aircraft was pulling??
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Patel [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 6:29 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Question for the physics "gurus"
All,
If G force is the gravitation force acting on the object then why many times an object is
being designed to take so may G forces. What I have heard that voice recorder of the plane
that went down in Pennsylvania can take on 700G force! So, if the free fall is 1 G then why
design 700 times safer. So, height above the ground does matter. May be I got to take a look
at the physic's book unless someone explain in layman's term.
re,
Ken Patel
Timothy Reeves wrote:
> No Jason,
> I am not a guru, but that's OK. They are not interconvertible. One is a
> measure of force, the other acceleration (actually a dimensionless
> multiplier of the standard gravitational acceleration, g, 9.8 m/s^2). If you
> have an object in mind of a known mass, you could find the force exerted on
> it given the acceleration ("G's") by F = m a.
>
> Example: 100 gram object subjected to 5 G's ---------> F = 0.1 kg * 5 * 9.8
> m/s^2 = 4.9 Newtons or 0.5 kilogram force or 1.1 lb-force.
>
> Tim Reeves
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jason Gregory [ mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> ]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 9:01 AM
> Subject: Question for the physics "gurus"
>
> How do you convert pound/kilogram to G-force? Is this convertable? Since
> G-force is somewhat time derived and pound/kilogram is force derived?
> Any help is appreciated.
>
> Jason Gregory
> Software Specialist - NPI Group
> SCI Systems/Plant 2
> 13000 S. Memorial Pkwy.
> Huntsville, AL. 35803
> (256) 882-4107 x3728
> [log in to unmask]
>
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<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<TITLE>RE: [TN] Question for the physics "gurus"</TITLE>
<META content="MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
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<DIV><SPAN class=021325714-11102001><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>hi,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=021325714-11102001><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=021325714-11102001><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>it's
not the fall from 30,000 that kills you, it's the sudden stop at the
end.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=021325714-11102001><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=021325714-11102001><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>phil</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Sarrouf, Michael
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday,
October 11, 2001 6:55 AM<BR><B>To:</B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[TN] Question for the physics "gurus"<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<P><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Ken,</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Coming from a Pilot's stand point.
There is no way an aircraft could pull 700g's. 7G's yes. People black out at
4.5-5g's if they are not wearing a Gsuit like the military pilots wear.
Military pilots can pull up to 9g's but they are wearing the Gsuit. Most
commercial aircraft might have the structural strength to with stand a 16G
load Factor. At 700G's a person weighing 150lbs would weigh 35,000lbs.
</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Are you sure it was not 7G's the
aircraft was pulling??</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Mike</FONT> </P>
<UL>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=1>-----Original Message-----</FONT> <BR><B><FONT
face=Arial size=1>From: </FONT></B> <FONT face=Arial size=1>Ken
Patel [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]</FONT> <BR><B><FONT face=Arial
size=1>Sent: </FONT></B> <FONT face=Arial size=1>Wednesday,
October 10, 2001 6:29 PM</FONT> <BR><B><FONT face=Arial
size=1>To: </FONT></B> <FONT face=Arial
size=1>[log in to unmask]</FONT> <BR><B><FONT face=Arial
size=1>Subject: </FONT></B> <FONT
face=Arial size=1>Re: [TN] Question for the physics "gurus"</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2>All,</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>If G
force is the gravitation force acting on the object then why many times an
object is</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>being designed to take so may G
forces. What I have heard that voice recorder of the plane</FONT> <BR><FONT
face=Arial size=2>that went down in Pennsylvania can take on 700G force! So,
if the free fall is 1 G then why</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>design
700 times safer. So, height above the ground does matter. May be I got to
take a look</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>at the physic's book unless
someone explain in layman's term.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2>re,</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>Ken
Patel</FONT> </P><BR>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2>Timothy Reeves wrote:</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2>> No Jason,</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2>> I am not a guru, but that's OK. They are not interconvertible.
One is a</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>> measure of force, the other
acceleration (actually a dimensionless</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2>> multiplier of the standard gravitational acceleration, g, 9.8
m/s^2). If you</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>> have an object in
mind of a known mass, you could find the force exerted on</FONT> <BR><FONT
face=Arial size=2>> it given the acceleration ("G's") by F = m a.</FONT>
<BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>></FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>>
Example: 100 gram object subjected to 5 G's ---------> F = 0.1 kg * 5 *
9.8</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>> m/s^2 = 4.9 Newtons or 0.5
kilogram force or 1.1 lb-force.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2>></FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>> Tim Reeves</FONT>
<BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>></FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>>
-----Original Message-----</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>> From:
Jason Gregory [<U></U></FONT><U><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><A
href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]</A></FONT></U><FONT
face=Arial size=2>]</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>> Sent: Tuesday,
October 09, 2001 9:01 AM</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>> Subject:
Question for the physics "gurus"</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2>></FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>> How do you convert
pound/kilogram to G-force? Is this convertable? Since</FONT> <BR><FONT
face=Arial size=2>> G-force is somewhat time derived and pound/kilogram
is force derived?</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>> Any help is
appreciated.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>></FONT> <BR><FONT
face=Arial size=2>> Jason Gregory</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>>
Software Specialist - NPI Group</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>> SCI
Systems/Plant 2</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>> 13000 S. Memorial
Pkwy.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>> Huntsville, AL. 35803</FONT>
<BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>> (256) 882-4107 x3728</FONT> <BR><FONT
face=Arial size=2>> [log in to unmask]</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2>></FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>>
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Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 10:07:44 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Gary McCauley <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: PCB FLAME RATINGS
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I believe that it is the time that it takes the material to
extinguish once the flame has been removed.
immediately vs 1 sec?
gary mccauley
-----Original Message-----
From: Barry Gallegos [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 9:33 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] PCB FLAME RATINGS
Good morning Tech Net.
I have a question in regards to UL Flame ratings for PCB's. My incoming
inspectors have asked me what the difference is between 94V-0 and 94V-1.
any help is appreciated.
Thank you in advance.
Barry Gallegos
Process Engineer
Western Electronics
1550 South Tech Lane
Meridian, Idaho 83642
Phone: 208/955-9771
Fax: 208/955-9755
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Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 16:07:53 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Neil Atkinson <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Question for the physics "gurus"
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Peter,
I thing the 'step' is an imperial measure!
Neil
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Swanson [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 11 October 2001 09:21
Subject: Re: Question for the physics "gurus"
Werner,
Is that a metric step or an imperial step? <g>
Peter
--
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Peter Swanson Oxfordshire, England
Dynamix Technology Ltd
IPC Standards, Guidelines & Videos - Electronics Manufacturing Bookshop
[log in to unmask] http://www.dynamixtechnology.com
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
-----Original Message-----
From: Werner Engelmaier [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 10 October 2001 22:17
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Question for the physics "gurus"
Hi Brian,
I grew up with ISO paper sizes, and when I moved to the USA the paper sizes
here sure felt strange--but I got used to them. I can assure you ISO paper
documents are significantly more ackward to file in the USA than US
documents
in ISO files. The ISO 2-ring binders with their 2 holes so close together
definitely are much worse than the 3-ring binders used here. I doubt you
will
ever see ISO size paper here! :-)
On the other hand, on metric we seem to make 3 steps forward 3 back. :-(
Werner Engelmaier
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Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:10:03 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "McGlaughlin, Jeffrey A" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: PCB FLAME RATINGS
MIME-version: 1.0
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The 94V indicates the test methodology, the -0 will not sustain a flame
(zero minutes to self-extinguish), the -1 self-extinguishes in less than 1
minute...
Jeffrey A. McGlaughlin CID
Sr. Designer
Battelle Memorial Institute
Columbus Ohio
[log in to unmask]
-----Original Message-----
From: Barry Gallegos [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 10:33 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] PCB FLAME RATINGS
Good morning Tech Net.
I have a question in regards to UL Flame ratings for PCB's. My incoming
inspectors have asked me what the difference is between 94V-0 and 94V-1.
any help is appreciated.
Thank you in advance.
Barry Gallegos
Process Engineer
Western Electronics
1550 South Tech Lane
Meridian, Idaho 83642
Phone: 208/955-9771
Fax: 208/955-9755
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Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:26:53 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Jim Kittel <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Attaching Microwave Components
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Hello Tec Netters,
We are de-buging a new circuit board containing a microwave filter operating
in the 2 - 3 Ghz range. This filter was soldered around the perimeter of
the case to the ENIG ground plane using 63/37 eutectic. The engineer is
stating that electrically the filter does not appear to be adequately
grounded to that plane. I am wondering if there is a better way to attach
these filters? Would it be better to solder the entire bottom of the filter
case to the plane? Is anyone using conductive epoxy? Liquid or sheet? I
would appeciate comments.
Thanks,
Jim Kittel
L-3 Communications
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Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 18:34:57 +0300
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Brian Ellis <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Question for the physics "gurus"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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Neil
In French, une step is an acronym for a station d'épuration des eaux
usées or, in simple language, a sewage works. Perhaps this is a logical
place for this discussion to end?????
Brian
Neil Atkinson wrote:
>
> Peter,
> I thing the 'step' is an imperial measure!
>
> Neil
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Swanson [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: 11 October 2001 09:21
> Subject: Re: Question for the physics "gurus"
>
> Werner,
>
> Is that a metric step or an imperial step? <g>
>
> Peter
> --
> :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
> Peter Swanson Oxfordshire, England
> Dynamix Technology Ltd
> IPC Standards, Guidelines & Videos - Electronics Manufacturing Bookshop
> [log in to unmask] http://www.dynamixtechnology.com
> :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Werner Engelmaier [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: 10 October 2001 22:17
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Question for the physics "gurus"
>
> Hi Brian,
> I grew up with ISO paper sizes, and when I moved to the USA the paper sizes
> here sure felt strange--but I got used to them. I can assure you ISO paper
> documents are significantly more ackward to file in the USA than US
> documents
> in ISO files. The ISO 2-ring binders with their 2 holes so close together
> definitely are much worse than the 3-ring binders used here. I doubt you
> will
> ever see ISO size paper here! :-)
> On the other hand, on metric we seem to make 3 steps forward 3 back. :-(
>
> Werner Engelmaier
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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>
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Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:28:29 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Sarrouf, Michael" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Question for the physics "gurus"
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Yes, I agree with the fact that the Aircraft Might have Hit the Ground with
the force of 700G's, Killing everyone. My Point is that Mr. Patel worded his
email " The Aircraft can take on 700G Force" To me this sounds like he is
saying the aircraft is structurally sound to with stand a force of 700G's.
My Perception only!!
-----Original Message-----
> From: Tim Weller [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 10:46 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Question for the physics "gurus"
>
> It's not the in-flight stresses, it's the sudden impact with the ground.
>
> "Sarrouf, Michael" wrote:
>
>
>
> Ken,
>
> Coming from a Pilot's stand point. There is no way an aircraft could
> pull 700g's. 7G's yes. People black out at 4.5-5g's if they are not
> wearing a Gsuit like the military pilots wear. Military pilots can pull up
> to 9g's but they are wearing the Gsuit. Most commercial aircraft might
> have the structural strength to with stand a 16G load Factor. At 700G's a
> person weighing 150lbs would weigh 35,000lbs.
>
> Are you sure it was not 7G's the aircraft was pulling??
>
> Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ken Patel [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 6:29 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Question for the physics "gurus"
>
> All,
> If G force is the gravitation force acting on the object then why
> many times an object is
> being designed to take so may G forces. What I have heard that voice
> recorder of the plane
> that went down in Pennsylvania can take on 700G force! So, if the
> free fall is 1 G then why
> design 700 times safer. So, height above the ground does matter. May
> be I got to take a look
> at the physic's book unless someone explain in layman's term.
>
> re,
> Ken Patel
>
> Timothy Reeves wrote:
>
> > No Jason,
> > I am not a guru, but that's OK. They are not interconvertible. One
> is a
> > measure of force, the other acceleration (actually a dimensionless
>
> > multiplier of the standard gravitational acceleration, g, 9.8
> m/s^2). If you
> > have an object in mind of a known mass, you could find the force
> exerted on
> > it given the acceleration ("G's") by F = m a.
> >
> > Example: 100 gram object subjected to 5 G's ---------> F = 0.1 kg
> * 5 * 9.8
> > m/s^2 = 4.9 Newtons or 0.5 kilogram force or 1.1 lb-force.
> >
> > Tim Reeves
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jason Gregory [ <mailto:[log in to unmask]>]
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 9:01 AM
> > Subject: Question for the physics "gurus"
> >
> > How do you convert pound/kilogram to G-force? Is this convertable?
> Since
> > G-force is somewhat time derived and pound/kilogram is force
> derived?
> > Any help is appreciated.
> >
> > Jason Gregory
> > Software Specialist - NPI Group
> > SCI Systems/Plant 2
> > 13000 S. Memorial Pkwy.
> > Huntsville, AL. 35803
> > (256) 882-4107 x3728
> > [log in to unmask]
> >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C15269.6114A070
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
5.5.2653.12">
<TITLE>RE: [TN] Question for the physics "gurus"</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Yes, I agree with =
the fact that the Aircraft Might have Hit the Ground with the<B><I> =
force</I></B><I></I> of 700G's, Killing everyone. My Point is that Mr. =
Patel worded his email<B> " The Aircraft can take on 700G =
Force"</B> To me this sounds like he is saying the aircraft is =
structurally sound to with stand a force of 700G's. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">My Perception =
only!!</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial"> </FONT> <FONT =
SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<UL>
<P><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">From: </FONT></B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Tim Weller =
[SMTP:[log in to unmask]]</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Sent: </FONT></B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Thursday, October 11, 2001 10:46 AM</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">To: </FONT></B> <FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">[log in to unmask]</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Subject: </FONT>=
</B> <FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Re: [TN] Question for the physics =
"gurus"</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">It's not the in-flight stresses, it's the =
sudden impact with the ground. </FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">"Sarrouf, Michael" wrote: </FONT>
</P>
<UL>
<P><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">=A0 </FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Ken,</FONT><FONT =
FACE=3D"Arial"> </FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Coming from a =
Pilot's stand point. There is no way an aircraft could pull 700g's. =
7G's yes. People black out at 4.5-5g's if they are not wearing a Gsuit =
like the military pilots wear. Military pilots can pull up to 9g's but =
they are wearing the Gsuit. Most=A0 commercial aircraft might have the =
structural strength to with stand a 16G load Factor. At 700G's a person =
weighing 150lbs would weigh 35,000lbs.</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"> =
</FONT></P>
<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Are you sure it was =
not 7G's the aircraft was pulling??</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"> </FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Mike</FONT><FONT =
FACE=3D"Arial"> </FONT>
</P>
<P> <FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">-----Original Message-----</FONT><FONT =
FACE=3D"Arial"><BR>
</FONT><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">From:=A0=A0</FONT></B><FONT =
FACE=3D"Arial"> </FONT><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Ken Patel =
[SMTP:[log in to unmask]]</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"><BR>
</FONT><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Sent:=A0=A0</FONT></B><FONT =
FACE=3D"Arial"> </FONT><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Wednesday, October =
10, 2001 6:29 PM</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"><BR>
</FONT><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">To:=A0=A0=A0=A0</FONT></B><FONT =
FACE=3D"Arial"> </FONT><FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">[log in to unmask]</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"><BR>
</FONT><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Subject:=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0</FONT></B><FONT =
FACE=3D"Arial"> </FONT><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Re: [TN] Question =
for the physics "gurus"</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"> </FONT>
</P>
<P> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">All,</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"><BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">If G force is the gravitation =
force acting on the object then why many times an object is</FONT><FONT =
FACE=3D"Arial"><BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">being designed to take so may G =
forces. What I have heard that voice recorder of the plane</FONT><FONT =
FACE=3D"Arial"><BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">that went down in Pennsylvania can =
take on 700G force! So, if the free fall is 1 G then why</FONT><FONT =
FACE=3D"Arial"><BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">design 700 times safer. So, height =
above the ground does matter. May be I got to take a look</FONT><FONT =
FACE=3D"Arial"><BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">at the physic's book unless =
someone explain in layman's term.</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"> </FONT>
</P>
<P> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">re,</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"><BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Ken Patel</FONT><FONT =
FACE=3D"Arial"> </FONT>
</P>
<P> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Timothy Reeves wrote:</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"> =
</FONT>
</P>
<P> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">> No Jason,</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"><BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">> I am not a guru, but that's =
OK. They are not interconvertible. One is a</FONT><FONT =
FACE=3D"Arial"><BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">> measure of force, the other =
acceleration (actually a dimensionless</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"><BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">> multiplier of the standard =
gravitational acceleration, g, 9.8 m/s^2). If you</FONT><FONT =
FACE=3D"Arial"><BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">> have an object in mind of a =
known mass, you could find the force exerted on</FONT><FONT =
FACE=3D"Arial"><BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">> it given the acceleration =
("G's") by F =3D m a.</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"><BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">></FONT><FONT =
FACE=3D"Arial"><BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">> Example: 100 gram object =
subjected to 5 G's ---------> F =3D 0.1 kg * 5 * 9.8</FONT><FONT =
FACE=3D"Arial"><BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">> m/s^2 =3D 4.9 Newtons or 0.5 =
kilogram force or 1.1 lb-force.</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"><BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">></FONT><FONT =
FACE=3D"Arial"><BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">> Tim Reeves</FONT><FONT =
FACE=3D"Arial"><BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">></FONT><FONT =
FACE=3D"Arial"><BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">> -----Original =
Message-----</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"><BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">> From: Jason Gregory =
[<U></U></FONT><U><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> =
<<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]</A>&g=
t;</FONT></U><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">]</FONT><FONT =
FACE=3D"Arial"><BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">> Sent: Tuesday, October 09, =
2001 9:01 AM</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"><BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">> Subject: Question for the =
physics "gurus"</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"><BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">></FONT><FONT =
FACE=3D"Arial"><BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">> How do you convert =
pound/kilogram to G-force? Is this convertable? Since</FONT><FONT =
FACE=3D"Arial"><BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">> G-force is somewhat time =
derived and pound/kilogram is force derived?</FONT><FONT =
FACE=3D"Arial"><BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">> Any help is =
appreciated.</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"><BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">></FONT><FONT =
FACE=3D"Arial"><BR>
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Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:30:46 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Sauer, Steven T." <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: PCB FLAME RATINGS
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
94V-0 - flame exstinguishes in less than 10 seconds
94V-1 - flame exstinguishes in less than 60 seconds
To learn more about the UL94 rating, follow this link:
http://www.fire-testing.com/ul94.htm
Regards,
Steve Sauer
-----Original Message-----
what is the difference between 94V-0 and 94V-1.
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Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:48:21 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: John Brewer <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Question for the physics "gurus"
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Ken mentions:
" What I have heard that voice recorder of the plane
that went down in Pennsylvania can take on 700G force!"
All I can say, is that expecting the news media to get
anything of a technical issue, correct at ALL, is a
misguided expectation!
:-)
John
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Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:52:33 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Misner, Bruce" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Attaching Microwave Components
Jim,
It probably would be better to solder the entire bottom of the filter case
to the plane at that frequency. I wouldn't use Ag epoxy. If there is solder
already there from a previous attachment you would be looking at an
increasing resistance over a fairly short period of time (weeks to months).
As ENIG you will have a similar problem over a much longer period of time,
as you will get some Ni oxide growth. If you use electroless or
electroplated Au greater than say 20u inches you could use Ag epoxy provided
that the filter also has a compatable Ag epoxy surface.
Bruce Misner
> ----------
> From: Jim Kittel[SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Reply To: TechNet E-Mail Forum.
> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 11:26 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] Attaching Microwave Components
>
> Hello Tec Netters,
> We are de-buging a new circuit board containing a microwave filter
> operating
> in the 2 - 3 Ghz range. This filter was soldered around the perimeter of
> the case to the ENIG ground plane using 63/37 eutectic. The engineer is
> stating that electrically the filter does not appear to be adequately
> grounded to that plane. I am wondering if there is a better way to attach
> these filters? Would it be better to solder the entire bottom of the
> filter
> case to the plane? Is anyone using conductive epoxy? Liquid or sheet? I
> would appeciate comments.
> Thanks,
> Jim Kittel
> L-3 Communications
>
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Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:10:31 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Ted Ngo <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Question for the physics "gurus"
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I think Ken is talking about the Black Box.
"Sarrouf, Michael" wrote:
>
>
> Yes, I agree with the fact that the Aircraft Might have Hit the Ground
> with the force of 700G's, Killing everyone. My Point is that Mr. Patel
> worded his email " The Aircraft can take on 700G Force" To me this
> sounds like he is saying the aircraft is structurally sound to with
> stand a force of 700G's.
>
> My Perception only!!
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Tim Weller [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 10:46 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Question for the physics "gurus"
>
> It's not the in-flight stresses, it's the sudden impact with the
> ground.
>
> "Sarrouf, Michael" wrote:
>
>
> Ken,
>
> Coming from a Pilot's stand point. There is no way an
> aircraft could pull 700g's. 7G's yes. People black out at
> 4.5-5g's if they are not wearing a Gsuit like the military
> pilots wear. Military pilots can pull up to 9g's but they
> are wearing the Gsuit. Most commercial aircraft might have
> the structural strength to with stand a 16G load Factor. At
> 700G's a person weighing 150lbs would weigh 35,000lbs.
>
> Are you sure it was not 7G's the aircraft was pulling??
>
> Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ken Patel [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 6:29 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Question for the physics "gurus"
>
> All,
> If G force is the gravitation force acting on the object
> then why many times an object is
> being designed to take so may G forces. What I have heard
> that voice recorder of the plane
> that went down in Pennsylvania can take on 700G force! So,
> if the free fall is 1 G then why
> design 700 times safer. So, height above the ground does
> matter. May be I got to take a look
> at the physic's book unless someone explain in layman's
> term.
>
> re,
> Ken Patel
>
> Timothy Reeves wrote:
>
> > No Jason,
> > I am not a guru, but that's OK. They are not
> interconvertible. One is a
> > measure of force, the other acceleration (actually a
> dimensionless
> > multiplier of the standard gravitational acceleration, g,
> 9.8 m/s^2). If you
> > have an object in mind of a known mass, you could find the
> force exerted on
> > it given the acceleration ("G's") by F = m a.
> >
> > Example: 100 gram object subjected to 5 G's ---------> F =
> 0.1 kg * 5 * 9.8
> > m/s^2 = 4.9 Newtons or 0.5 kilogram force or 1.1 lb-force.
>
> >
> > Tim Reeves
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jason Gregory [ <mailto:[log in to unmask]>]
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 9:01 AM
> > Subject: Question for the physics "gurus"
> >
> > How do you convert pound/kilogram to G-force? Is this
> convertable? Since
> > G-force is somewhat time derived and pound/kilogram is
> force derived?
> > Any help is appreciated.
> >
> > Jason Gregory
> > Software Specialist - NPI Group
> > SCI Systems/Plant 2
> > 13000 S. Memorial Pkwy.
> > Huntsville, AL. 35803
> > (256) 882-4107 x3728
> > [log in to unmask]
> >
> >
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> Resources & Databases > E-mail Archives
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I think Ken is talking about the Black Box.
<p>"Sarrouf, Michael" wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>
<p><font face="Arial"><font color="#0000FF"><font size=-1>Yes, I agree
with the fact that the Aircraft Might have Hit the Ground with the<b><i>
force</i></b> of 700G's, Killing everyone. My Point is that Mr. Patel worded
his email<b> " The Aircraft can take on 700G Force"</b> To me this sounds
like he is saying the aircraft is structurally sound to with stand a force
of 700G's.</font></font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font color="#0000FF"><font size=-1>My Perception
only!!</font></font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font color="#0000FF"><font size=-1> </font></font></font>
<font face="Arial"><font size=-2>-----Original Message-----</font></font>
<ul><b><font face="Arial"><font size=-2>From: </font></font></b>
<font face="Arial"><font size=-2>Tim Weller [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]</font></font>
<br><b><font face="Arial"><font size=-2>Sent: </font></font></b>
<font face="Arial"><font size=-2>Thursday, October 11, 2001 10:46 AM</font></font>
<br><b><font face="Arial"><font size=-2>To: </font></font></b>
<font face="Arial"><font size=-2>[log in to unmask]</font></font>
<br><b><font face="Arial"><font size=-2>Subject: </font></font></b>
<font face="Arial"><font size=-2>Re: [TN] Question for the physics "gurus"</font></font>
<p><font face="Arial">It's not the in-flight stresses, it's the sudden
impact with the ground.</font>
<p><font face="Arial">"Sarrouf, Michael" wrote:</font>
<ul>
<p><font face="Arial"><font color="#0000FF"><font size=-1>Ken,</font></font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font color="#0000FF"><font size=-1>Coming from a
Pilot's stand point. There is no way an aircraft could pull 700g's. 7G's
yes. People black out at 4.5-5g's if they are not wearing a Gsuit like
the military pilots wear. Military pilots can pull up to 9g's but they
are wearing the Gsuit. Most commercial aircraft might have the structural
strength to with stand a 16G load Factor. At 700G's a person weighing 150lbs
would weigh 35,000lbs.</font></font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font color="#0000FF"><font size=-1>Are you sure
it was not 7G's the aircraft was pulling??</font></font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font color="#0000FF"><font size=-1>Mike</font></font></font>
<p> <font face="Arial"><font size=-2>-----Original
Message-----</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><b><font size=-2>From: </font></b> <font size=-2>Ken
Patel [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><b><font size=-2>Sent: </font></b> <font size=-2>Wednesday,
October 10, 2001 6:29 PM</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><b><font size=-2>To: </font></b>
<font size=-2>[log in to unmask]</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><b><font size=-2>Subject: </font></b>
<font size=-2>Re: [TN] Question for the physics "gurus"</font></font>
<p> <font face="Arial"><font size=-1>All,</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>If G force is the gravitation force
acting on the object then why many times an object is</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>being designed to take so may G forces.
What I have heard that voice recorder of the plane</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>that went down in Pennsylvania can
take on 700G force! So, if the free fall is 1 G then why</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>design 700 times safer. So, height
above the ground does matter. May be I got to take a look</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>at the physic's book unless someone
explain in layman's term.</font></font>
<p> <font face="Arial"><font size=-1>re,</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Ken Patel</font></font>
<p> <font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Timothy
Reeves wrote:</font></font>
<p> <font face="Arial"><font size=-1>>
No Jason,</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> I am not a guru, but that's OK.
They are not interconvertible. One is a</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> measure of force, the other acceleration
(actually a dimensionless</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> multiplier of the standard gravitational
acceleration, g, 9.8 m/s^2). If you</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> have an object in mind of a known
mass, you could find the force exerted on</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> it given the acceleration ("G's")
by F = m a.</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>></font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> Example: 100 gram object subjected
to 5 G's ---------> F = 0.1 kg * 5 * 9.8</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> m/s^2 = 4.9 Newtons or 0.5 kilogram
force or 1.1 lb-force.</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>></font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> Tim Reeves</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>></font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> -----Original Message-----</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> From: Jason Gregory [<u><font color="#0000FF">
<<a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]</a>></font></u>]</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001
9:01 AM</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> Subject: Question for the physics
"gurus"</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>></font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> How do you convert pound/kilogram
to G-force? Is this convertable? Since</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> G-force is somewhat time derived
and pound/kilogram is force derived?</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> Any help is appreciated.</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>></font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> Jason Gregory</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> Software Specialist - NPI Group</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> SCI Systems/Plant 2</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> 13000 S. Memorial Pkwy.</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> Huntsville, AL. 35803</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> (256) 882-4107 x3728</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> [log in to unmask]</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>></font></font>
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at [log in to unmask] or 847-509-9700 ext.5315</font></font>
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Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 12:10:59 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Dean Lillibridge <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: TOOL FOR V-GROOVE
MIME-Version: 1.0
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The depanelizer we had for v-grooved boards was a K3000 PCB Separator which
we purchased from SFA. The contact at the time was Joe Kornack. His phone
number is: 781-749-5636. I believe this machine will cut up to 18" panels.
Dean Lillibridge
NEWvENTURE TECHNOLOGIES
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Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 12:14:38 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Kaye Knotts <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Alternative to FR-4
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Dear Technetters,
I have been asked a question that I need help answering.
Is there a printed circuit board base material that
would meet the same specs as multi-functional FR-4
and does not use Bromine in the flame retardant chemistry.
Can someone answer the question or point me in the right direction.
Thank you very much.
Kaye Knotts
Keithley Instruments
Solon, Ohio
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Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:22:04 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Simms, Michael" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: PCB FLAME RATINGS
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hi Barry,
The difference between UL94 (July 29, 1997) classs are listed below.
1. Afterflame time for each individual sample t1 or t2
V-0 <=10s. ; V-1 <= 30s. ; V-2 <= 30s.
2. Total afterflame time time for any condition set (t1 plus t2
for the 5 specimens.
V-0 <=50S. ; V-1 <= 250S. ; v-2 <= 250s.
3. Afterflame or afterglow of any sample up to the holding clamp.
V-0, V-1, and V-2 Not allowed
4. Cotton indicator ignited by flaming particles or drops
V-0 and V-1 Not allowed; V-2 Allowed
Like many independent labs out there, we do this type of testing
quite a bit.
Regards,
Mike Simms
Trace Laboratories - Central
ph. 847 934 5300
fax 847 934 4600
-----Original Message-----
From: Gary McCauley [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 10:08 AM
Subject: Re: PCB FLAME RATINGS
I believe that it is the time that it takes the material to
extinguish once the flame has been removed.
immediately vs 1 sec?
gary mccauley
-----Original Message-----
From: Barry Gallegos [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 9:33 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] PCB FLAME RATINGS
Good morning Tech Net.
I have a question in regards to UL Flame ratings for PCB's. My incoming
inspectors have asked me what the difference is between 94V-0 and 94V-1.
any help is appreciated.
Thank you in advance.
Barry Gallegos
Process Engineer
Western Electronics
1550 South Tech Lane
Meridian, Idaho 83642
Phone: 208/955-9771
Fax: 208/955-9755
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Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 10:08:53 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Guy Ramsey <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: failing capacitors
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Are we sure that this is not an electrically induced failure? Is the
component serviing in an application that it cannot support? By designer are
we talking EE or board layout designer?
Guy Ramsey
Senior Lab Technician / Instructor
E-Mail: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Ph: (610) 362-1200 x107
Fax: (610) 362-1290
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Phil Nutting
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 10:17 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] failing capacitors
Here is an interesting question.
We use Roederstein film capacitors (through hole configuration) in many
of our boards. Typically all boards are run through our wave solder
machine with the same recipe. The weird thing is that some of these
caps fail either open or shorted but only on the boards belonging to one
design engineer. Is this "full moon residue", a circuit design issue or
is it possible a regular failure that no one else is complaining about?
We keep track of our test failures and if this were happening on many
other boards we should be seeing the data, but there is none.
I'm interested in what your thoughts may be.
Thanks in advance.
Phil Nutting
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Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 12:53:40 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Phil Nutting <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: failing capacitors
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I'm not sure if this is an electrically induced failure. I can tell you
that when the cap is replaced the system works well and the cap no
longer shows signs of failing.
An interesting thought... used in an application it cannot support. I
don't have the answer to this one or the knowledge to analyze the
design.
Well, the EE specified what parts to use and the board layout designer
placed the components with the approval of the EE. So I guess they are
both at "fault".
-----Original Message-----
From: Guy Ramsey [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 10:09 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] failing capacitors
Are we sure that this is not an electrically induced failure? Is the
component serviing in an application that it cannot support? By designer
are
we talking EE or board layout designer?
Guy Ramsey
Senior Lab Technician / Instructor
E-Mail: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Ph: (610) 362-1200 x107
Fax: (610) 362-1290
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Phil Nutting
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 10:17 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] failing capacitors
Here is an interesting question.
We use Roederstein film capacitors (through hole configuration) in many
of our boards. Typically all boards are run through our wave solder
machine with the same recipe. The weird thing is that some of these
caps fail either open or shorted but only on the boards belonging to one
design engineer. Is this "full moon residue", a circuit design issue or
is it possible a regular failure that no one else is complaining about?
We keep track of our test failures and if this were happening on many
other boards we should be seeing the data, but there is none.
I'm interested in what your thoughts may be.
Thanks in advance.
Phil Nutting
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Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 12:46:36 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Andy Magee <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: UL 94V-0 vs 94V-1
X-To: [log in to unmask]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_068E_01C15252.C3BFB000"
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------=_NextPart_000_068E_01C15252.C3BFB000
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Barry,
I've seen a couple of postings that didn't quite get the details right. =
Here's the results matrix required for each rating.
Vertical Flammability Criteria 94VTM-0 94VTM-1 94VTM-2
After Flame Time (each sample) =3D10s =3D30s =
=3D30s
After Flame Time (total of all samples) =3D50s =3D250s =
=3D250s
After Flame + Afterglow, 2nd Exposure (each) =3D30s =3D60s =
=3D60s
After Flame or Afterglow Up to Clamp No No No
Cotton Ignited by Flaming Particles or Drops No No Yes
All the best,
Andy Magee - Flex Guru
Senior Consultant - Bourton Group
E-mail [log in to unmask]
Tel (937) 435-3629
V-Mail (317) 818-8152x414
FAX (317) 818-9299
Bourton Group, LLC
An Implementation Services Company
11350 N. Meridian St., Ste. 360
Carmel, IN 46032
Phone: 317-851-3636
www.bourtongroup.com
------=_NextPart_000_068E_01C15252.C3BFB000
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-1252" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2919.6307" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Barry,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I've seen a couple of postings that =
didn't quite=20
get the details right. Here's the results matrix required for each=20
rating.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Vertical Flammability=20
Criteria  =
; =20
94VTM-0 94VTM-1 94VTM-2</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>After Flame Time (each=20
sample) =
=20
<SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; =
mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: =
AR-SA">≤</SPAN>10s <SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; =
mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: =
AR-SA">≤</SPAN>30s <SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; =
mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: =
AR-SA">≤</SPAN>30s</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>After Flame Time (total of all =
samples)=20
<SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; =
mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: =
AR-SA">≤</SPAN>50s =20
<SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; =
mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: =
AR-SA">≤</SPAN>250s =20
<SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; =
mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: =
AR-SA">≤</SPAN>250s</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>After Flame + Afterglow, 2nd =
Exposure=20
(each) <SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; =
mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: =
AR-SA">≤</SPAN>30s =20
<SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; =
mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: =
AR-SA">≤</SPAN>60s =20
<SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; =
mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: =
AR-SA">≤</SPAN>60s</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>After Flame or Afterglow Up to=20
Clamp =20
No No =20
No</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Cotton Ignited by Flaming =
Particles or=20
Drops No =20
No Yes</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>All the best,<BR>Andy Magee - =
</FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>Flex Guru<BR>Senior Consultant - Bourton =
Group<BR>E-mail <A=20
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A><BR>Te=
l (937)=20
435-3629<BR>V-Mail (317) 818-8152x414</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>FAX (317) 818-9299<BR><BR>Bourton =
Group, LLC<BR>An=20
Implementation Services Company<BR>11350 N. Meridian St., Ste. =
360<BR>Carmel, IN=20
46032<BR>Phone: 317-851-3636<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.bourtongroup.com">www.bourtongroup.com</A></FONT></DIV=
></FONT></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 10:34:50 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Guy Ramsey <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: failing capacitors
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Have you considered the pitch of the layout. Auto insertion or lead forming
damage? If the pitch is unique to this one location and all the parts are
formed the same? OUCH.
Guy Ramsey
Senior Lab Technician / Instructor
E-Mail: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Ph: (610) 362-1200 x107
Fax: (610) 362-1290
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Phil Nutting
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 12:54 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] failing capacitors
I'm not sure if this is an electrically induced failure. I can tell you
that when the cap is replaced the system works well and the cap no
longer shows signs of failing.
An interesting thought... used in an application it cannot support. I
don't have the answer to this one or the knowledge to analyze the
design.
Well, the EE specified what parts to use and the board layout designer
placed the components with the approval of the EE. So I guess they are
both at "fault".
-----Original Message-----
From: Guy Ramsey [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 10:09 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] failing capacitors
Are we sure that this is not an electrically induced failure? Is the
component serviing in an application that it cannot support? By designer
are
we talking EE or board layout designer?
Guy Ramsey
Senior Lab Technician / Instructor
E-Mail: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Ph: (610) 362-1200 x107
Fax: (610) 362-1290
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Phil Nutting
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 10:17 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] failing capacitors
Here is an interesting question.
We use Roederstein film capacitors (through hole configuration) in many
of our boards. Typically all boards are run through our wave solder
machine with the same recipe. The weird thing is that some of these
caps fail either open or shorted but only on the boards belonging to one
design engineer. Is this "full moon residue", a circuit design issue or
is it possible a regular failure that no one else is complaining about?
We keep track of our test failures and if this were happening on many
other boards we should be seeing the data, but there is none.
I'm interested in what your thoughts may be.
Thanks in advance.
Phil Nutting
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 12:14:28 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Simms, Michael" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: PCB FLAME RATINGS
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Barry,
UL94 is interesting and was written as a test for plastic materials.
More to the point, IPC-4101, "Specification for Base Materials for
Rigid and Multilayer Printed Boards" addresses flammability in paragraph
3.10.2.1.
This mandates testing to IPC-TM-650, Method 2.3.10.
Here, the maximum average and individual burn times are mandated to be as
indicated on the applicable specification sheet.
Hope this helps.
Mike Simms
Trace Laboratories - Central
ph. 847 934 5300
fax 847 934 4600
-----Original Message-----
From: McGlaughlin, Jeffrey A [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: PCB FLAME RATINGS
The 94V indicates the test methodology, the -0 will not sustain a flame
(zero minutes to self-extinguish), the -1 self-extinguishes in less than 1
minute...
Jeffrey A. McGlaughlin CID
Sr. Designer
Battelle Memorial Institute
Columbus Ohio
[log in to unmask]
-----Original Message-----
From: Barry Gallegos [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 10:33 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] PCB FLAME RATINGS
Good morning Tech Net.
I have a question in regards to UL Flame ratings for PCB's. My incoming
inspectors have asked me what the difference is between 94V-0 and 94V-1.
any help is appreciated.
Thank you in advance.
Barry Gallegos
Process Engineer
Western Electronics
1550 South Tech Lane
Meridian, Idaho 83642
Phone: 208/955-9771
Fax: 208/955-9755
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Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:31:32 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Darnell, Barry (IndSys, GEFanuc, CDI)"
<[log in to unmask]>
Subject: BGA Alignment
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Can someone point me in the direction of documents that address the
properties of a BGA to self align?
Thanks,
> Barry Darnell
> (864)627-8800 Ext. 217
> mailto:[log in to unmask]
> Computer Dynamics, Inc.
> Printed Circuit Board Designer
>
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Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 10:56:29 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Timothy Reeves <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Question for the physics "gurus"
X-To: Ken Patel <[log in to unmask]>
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Ken,
Again "G's" are a convenient way of measuring acceleration, relative to the
acceleration due to gravity. It is not gravitational force. It is used to
measure any acceleration.
700 G's would be 700 * 9.8 m/s^2, or nearly 6900 m/s^2. When an object
traveling at automobile speed, say, hits another object, and is stopped in
a matter of milliseconds, its acceleration can be in the thousands of G's,
for that short time.
Acceleration, a = dv/dt, the change in velocity with respect to time.
In free fall, the acceleration is g (not G), which can be called one "G".
The problem with the black box isn't the free fall. It's the hitting the
ground that hurts, when the force is exerted not by gravity, but by the
ground. And that force depends on how hard the ground is, how fast the box
was going when it hit, etc.
On a side note:
It can be confusing, since there is also an equation for measuring the
gravitational force between two masses, which also uses the symbol G for the
gravitational constant. F = G m1 m2 / d^2 In this equation , G is
neither force nor acceleration, but a constant relating force, mass and
distance.
Tim Reeves
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Patel [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 3:29 PM
Subject: Re: Question for the physics "gurus"
All,
If G force is the gravitation force acting on the object then why many times
an object is
being designed to take so may G forces. What I have heard that voice
recorder of the plane
that went down in Pennsylvania can take on 700G force! So, if the free fall
is 1 G then why
design 700 times safer. So, height above the ground does matter. May be I
got to take a look
at the physic's book unless someone explain in layman's term.
re,
Ken Patel
Timothy Reeves wrote:
> No Jason,
> I am not a guru, but that's OK. They are not interconvertible. One is a
> measure of force, the other acceleration (actually a dimensionless
> multiplier of the standard gravitational acceleration, g, 9.8 m/s^2). If
you
> have an object in mind of a known mass, you could find the force exerted
on
> it given the acceleration ("G's") by F = m a.
>
> Example: 100 gram object subjected to 5 G's ---------> F = 0.1 kg * 5 *
9.8
> m/s^2 = 4.9 Newtons or 0.5 kilogram force or 1.1 lb-force.
>
> Tim Reeves
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Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:58:09 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Hinners Hans M Civ WRALC/LUGE <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Alternative to FR-4
X-cc: [log in to unmask]
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Hi Kaye,
The 2001 IPC Expo in Anaheim had a session I attended on "green" FR-4. As
memory serves, Polyclad, Isola and Nelco presented papers including an
excellent one on non-bromated FR-4. They covered the challenges of
balancing alternative flame retardant additives while maintaining typical
FR-4 properties (Tg, dimensional stability, Dk, etc.). I'm sure the
laminate suppliers (Isola, Polyclad, Nelco, Rogers, Matsushita, etc.) can
tell you what they have available - might even be on a webpage. Or, if you
have the IPC Proceedings CD-ROM the papers should be in there (now where'd I
file that thing.)
Hans
Integrity First - Service Before Self - Excellence in All We Do
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hans M. Hinners
Electronics Engineer
Warner Robins - Air Logistics Center (WR-ALC/LUGE)
Special Operations Forces System Program Office (SOF - SPO)
Gunship Team
226 Cochran Street
Robins AFB GA 31098-1622
mailto:[log in to unmask]
Com: (478) 926 - 5224
Fax: (478) 926 - 4911
DSN Prefix: 468
-----Original Message-----
From: Kaye Knotts [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 12:15 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Alternative to FR-4
Dear Technetters,
I have been asked a question that I need help answering.
Is there a printed circuit board base material that
would meet the same specs as multi-functional FR-4
and does not use Bromine in the flame retardant chemistry.
Can someone answer the question or point me in the right direction.
Thank you very much.
Kaye Knotts
Keithley Instruments
Solon, Ohio
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Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 14:10:49 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Phil Nutting <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: failing capacitors
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Pitch isn't it. The parts are 0.2" spacing and the holes are 0.2"
spacing. I suppose it could be the clinching process of our
semi-automatic insertion machine, but why only on one engineer's boards
and no one else's. Sigh!
-----Original Message-----
From: Guy Ramsey [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 10:35 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] failing capacitors
Have you considered the pitch of the layout. Auto insertion or lead
forming
damage? If the pitch is unique to this one location and all the parts
are
formed the same? OUCH.
Guy Ramsey
Senior Lab Technician / Instructor
E-Mail: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Ph: (610) 362-1200 x107
Fax: (610) 362-1290
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Phil Nutting
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 12:54 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] failing capacitors
I'm not sure if this is an electrically induced failure. I can tell you
that when the cap is replaced the system works well and the cap no
longer shows signs of failing.
An interesting thought... used in an application it cannot support. I
don't have the answer to this one or the knowledge to analyze the
design.
Well, the EE specified what parts to use and the board layout designer
placed the components with the approval of the EE. So I guess they are
both at "fault".
-----Original Message-----
From: Guy Ramsey [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 10:09 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] failing capacitors
Are we sure that this is not an electrically induced failure? Is the
component serviing in an application that it cannot support? By designer
are
we talking EE or board layout designer?
Guy Ramsey
Senior Lab Technician / Instructor
E-Mail: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Ph: (610) 362-1200 x107
Fax: (610) 362-1290
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Phil Nutting
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 10:17 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] failing capacitors
Here is an interesting question.
We use Roederstein film capacitors (through hole configuration) in many
of our boards. Typically all boards are run through our wave solder
machine with the same recipe. The weird thing is that some of these
caps fail either open or shorted but only on the boards belonging to one
design engineer. Is this "full moon residue", a circuit design issue or
is it possible a regular failure that no one else is complaining about?
We keep track of our test failures and if this were happening on many
other boards we should be seeing the data, but there is none.
I'm interested in what your thoughts may be.
Thanks in advance.
Phil Nutting
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Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:31:55 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Kathy Kuhlow <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: failing capacitors
Mime-Version: 1.0
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This is a MIME message. If you are reading this text, you may want to
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Are the capacitor locations properly thermal relieved? What is the =
orientation into the wave at this location? Could it be that the part is =
being thermally shocked due to lack of stress relief in the PCB or =
orientation into the wave?
Kathy=20
--=_D08A23A3.A5C4A9DD
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="TEXT.htm"
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
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<BODY
style="FONT: 10pt Abadi MT Condensed Light; MARGIN-LEFT: 2px; MARGIN-TOP: 2px">
<DIV>Are the capacitor locations properly thermal relieved? What is the
orientation into the wave at this location? Could it be that the part is
being thermally shocked due to lack of stress relief in the PCB or orientation
into the wave?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Kathy </DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 14:35:03 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Stephen R. Gregory" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Attaching Microwave Components
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Hi Jim!
We build quite a few RF assemblies here and most always solder the component
bodies to the ground plane. I get stencils made to print paste in the proper
patterns for each component. We solder RF bandpass filters, threshold
detectors, RF amplifiers, mixers, directional couplers, etc. this way...
As what once somebody else said; "Ground is god in RF assemblies..."
-Steve Gregory-
> Hello Tec Netters,
> We are de-buging a new circuit board containing a microwave filter operating
> in the 2 - 3 Ghz range. This filter was soldered around the perimeter of
> the case to the ENIG ground plane using 63/37 eutectic. The engineer is
> stating that electrically the filter does not appear to be adequately
> grounded to that plane. I am wondering if there is a better way to attach
> these filters? Would it be better to solder the entire bottom of the filter
> case to the plane? Is anyone using conductive epoxy? Liquid or sheet? I
> would appeciate comments.
> Thanks,
> Jim Kittel
> L-3 Communications
>
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Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>Hi Jim!
<BR>
<BR>We build quite a few RF assemblies here and most always solder the component bodies to the ground plane. I get stencils made to print paste in the proper patterns for each component. We solder RF bandpass filters, threshold detectors, RF amplifiers, mixers, directional couplers, etc. this way...
<BR>
<BR>As what once somebody else said; "Ground is god in RF assemblies..."
<BR>
<BR>-Steve Gregory-
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Hello Tec Netters,
<BR>We are de-buging a new circuit board containing a microwave filter operating
<BR>in the 2 - 3 Ghz range. This filter was soldered around the perimeter of
<BR>the case to the ENIG ground plane using 63/37 eutectic. The engineer is
<BR>stating that electrically the filter does not appear to be adequately
<BR>grounded to that plane. I am wondering if there is a better way to attach
<BR>these filters? Would it be better to solder the entire bottom of the filter
<BR>case to the plane? Is anyone using conductive epoxy? Liquid or sheet? I
<BR>would appeciate comments.
<BR>Thanks,
<BR>Jim Kittel
<BR>L-3 Communications
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT></HTML>
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Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 14:45:38 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Phil Nutting <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: failing capacitors
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An interesting thought, but the failures have happened on control boards
which typically do not need thermal relief because these caps aren't
connected to a plane. I'd be interested to understand how orientation of
the cap could cause a failure as it passes through the wave. I'm still
trying to figure out the connection to failures on only a given few
boards when all 0.062" thick boards are run under the same wave solder
parameters and I'd guess that 99.9% or our boards use at least 1 if not
more of these Roederstein caps. Definitely a conundrum.
-----Original Message-----
From: Kathy Kuhlow [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 2:32 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] failing capacitors
Are the capacitor locations properly thermal relieved? What is the
orientation into the wave at this location? Could it be that the part
is being thermally shocked due to lack of stress relief in the PCB or
orientation into the wave?
Kathy=20
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Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 14:52:13 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Stephen R. Gregory" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: SAMTEC surface mount sockets...
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Hi All!!
We've got this little board we're building here, and it plugs into another
board via a set of surface mount headers and surface mount socket from
SAMTEC...their CLP-SM series is what I think they're called.
Anywho, the leads on these babies are stamped from phosphor bronze that is
pre-plated with tin. When the leads were stamped out they have a '"Burr-up"
cut on the sides of the leads, and a "Burr-down" on the toe of the leads.
After reflow, they really don't good that good. Check out some pictures:
http://www.stevezeva.homestead.com/
This is class-3 stuff, and the J-STD's says this is acceptable, to wit:
J-STD-001 addresses this as acceptable at page 19 of the standard:
9.2.6.1 Flat, Ribbon, "L", and Gull Wing Leads - Joints formed to flat,
ribbon, "L" and
gull wing shaped leads of either stiff or flexible materials must meet
alignment and
solder fillet requirements requirements of Table 9-2 and Figure 9-4 for each
product
classification. Leads not having wettable sides or ends by design (such as
leads
stamped or sheared from pre-plated stock) are not required to have side or end
fillets. For devices where the lead length (L) is shorter than the lead width
(W), the
minimum side joint length (D) shall be 0.75 L.
I just want some other opinions. The solder appears to wet fine under the
foot and back at the heel...and depending on how much plating has smeared up
or down from being stamped out, I MAY see a little bit of side filleting
about half the thickness of the lead, and I MAY see somewhat of a toe
fillet...but most of the time the solder looks as you see it in the pictures
I posted...
Thanks!
-Steve Gregory-
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>Hi All!!
<BR>
<BR>We've got this little board we're building here, and it plugs into another board via a set of surface mount headers and surface mount socket from SAMTEC...their CLP-SM series is what I think they're called.
<BR>
<BR>Anywho, the leads on these babies are stamped from phosphor bronze that is pre-plated with tin. When the leads were stamped out they have a '"Burr-up" cut on the sides of the leads, and a "Burr-down" on the toe of the leads. After reflow, they really don't good that good. Check out some pictures:
<BR>
<BR>http://www.stevezeva.homestead.com/
<BR>
<BR>This is class-3 stuff, and the J-STD's says this is acceptable, to wit:
<BR>
<BR>J-STD-001 addresses this as acceptable at page 19 of the standard:
<BR>
<BR>9.2.6.1 Flat, Ribbon, "L", and Gull Wing Leads - Joints formed to flat, ribbon, "L" and
<BR>gull wing shaped leads of either stiff or flexible materials must meet alignment and
<BR>solder fillet requirements requirements of Table 9-2 and Figure 9-4 for each product
<BR>classification. Leads not having wettable sides or ends by design (such as leads
<BR>stamped or sheared from pre-plated stock) are not required to have side or end
<BR>fillets. For devices where the lead length (L) is shorter than the lead width (W), the
<BR>minimum side joint length (D) shall be 0.75 L.
<BR>
<BR>I just want some other opinions. The solder appears to wet fine under the foot and back at the heel...and depending on how much plating has smeared up or down from being stamped out, I MAY see a little bit of side filleting about half the thickness of the lead, and I MAY see somewhat of a toe fillet...but most of the time the solder looks as you see it in the pictures I posted...
<BR>
<BR>Thanks!
<BR>
<BR>-Steve Gregory-
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>
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Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 12:48:54 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Guy Ramsey <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SAMTEC surface mount sockets...
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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The part of them we can see look okay. Can you see anything on the heel?
Strong backlite and look down the lenght of the connector. If you got a heel
fillet I'd say your home free.
Guy Ramsey
Senior Lab Technician / Instructor
E-Mail: [log in to unmask]
Ph: (610) 362-1200 x107
Fax: (610) 362-1290
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Stephen R. Gregory
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 2:52 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] SAMTEC surface mount sockets...
Hi All!!
We've got this little board we're building here, and it plugs into another
board via a set of surface mount headers and surface mount socket from
SAMTEC...their CLP-SM series is what I think they're called.
Anywho, the leads on these babies are stamped from phosphor bronze that is
pre-plated with tin. When the leads were stamped out they have a '"Burr-up"
cut on the sides of the leads, and a "Burr-down" on the toe of the leads.
After reflow, they really don't good that good. Check out some pictures:
http://www.stevezeva.homestead.com/
This is class-3 stuff, and the J-STD's says this is acceptable, to wit:
J-STD-001 addresses this as acceptable at page 19 of the standard:
9.2.6.1 Flat, Ribbon, "L", and Gull Wing Leads - Joints formed to flat,
ribbon, "L" and
gull wing shaped leads of either stiff or flexible materials must meet
alignment and
solder fillet requirements requirements of Table 9-2 and Figure 9-4 for
each product
classification. Leads not having wettable sides or ends by design (such as
leads
stamped or sheared from pre-plated stock) are not required to have side or
end
fillets. For devices where the lead length (L) is shorter than the lead
width (W), the
minimum side joint length (D) shall be 0.75 L.
I just want some other opinions. The solder appears to wet fine under the
foot and back at the heel...and depending on how much plating has smeared up
or down from being stamped out, I MAY see a little bit of side filleting
about half the thickness of the lead, and I MAY see somewhat of a toe
fillet...but most of the time the solder looks as you see it in the pictures
I posted...
Thanks!
-Steve Gregory-
------=_NextPart_000_004F_01C15253.16162DC0
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charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dwindows-1252">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D190034616-11102001>The=20
part of them we can see look okay. Can you see anything on the heel? =
Strong=20
backlite and look down the lenght of the connector. If you got a heel =
fillet I'd=20
say your home free.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>Guy Ramsey <BR>Senior Lab =
Technician /=20
Instructor</FONT><BR></FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>E-Mail: </FONT><A =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"><FONT=20
size=3D2>[log in to unmask]</FONT></A><BR></FONT><FONT size=3D2>Ph: =
(610) 362-1200=20
x</FONT><FONT size=3D2>107<BR></FONT><FONT size=3D2>Fax: (610) =
362-</FONT><FONT=20
size=3D2>1290</P></FONT>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> TechNet=20
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<B>On Behalf Of</B> Stephen R. =
Gregory<BR><B>Sent:</B>=20
Thursday, October 11, 2001 2:52 PM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
[log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> [TN] SAMTEC surface mount=20
sockets...<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =
size=3D2>Hi=20
All!! <BR><BR>We've got this little board we're building here, and it =
plugs=20
into another board via a set of surface mount headers and surface =
mount socket=20
from SAMTEC...their CLP-SM series is what I think they're called.=20
<BR><BR>Anywho, the leads on these babies are stamped from phosphor =
bronze=20
that is pre-plated with tin. When the leads were stamped out they have =
a=20
'"Burr-up" cut on the sides of the leads, and a "Burr-down" on the toe =
of the=20
leads. After reflow, they really don't good that good. Check out some=20
pictures: <BR><BR>http://www.stevezeva.homestead.com/ <BR><BR>This is =
class-3=20
stuff, and the J-STD's says this is acceptable, to wit: =
<BR><BR>J-STD-001=20
addresses this as acceptable at page 19 of the standard: =
<BR><BR>9.2.6.1 Flat,=20
Ribbon, "L", and Gull Wing Leads - Joints formed to flat, ribbon, "L" =
and=20
<BR>gull wing shaped leads of either stiff or flexible materials must =
meet=20
alignment and <BR>solder fillet requirements requirements of Table 9-2 =
and=20
Figure 9-4 for each product <BR>classification. Leads not having =
wettable=20
sides or ends by design (such as leads <BR>stamped or sheared from =
pre-plated=20
stock) are not required to have side or end <BR>fillets. For devices =
where the=20
lead length (L) is shorter than the lead width (W), the <BR>minimum =
side joint=20
length (D) shall be 0.75 L. <BR><BR>I just want some other opinions. =
The=20
solder appears to wet fine under the foot and back at the heel...and =
depending=20
on how much plating has smeared up or down from being stamped out, I =
MAY see a=20
little bit of side filleting about half the thickness of the lead, and =
I MAY=20
see somewhat of a toe fillet...but most of the time the solder looks =
as you=20
see it in the pictures I posted... <BR><BR>Thanks! <BR><BR>-Steve =
Gregory-=20
<BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 14:37:49 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Kathy Kuhlow <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: failing capacitors
Mime-Version: 1.0
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I would think that ,dependent on the thermal ramp rate and the temperautre =
spike at the entrance into the solder pot, you could damage a cap if one =
lead enters first or if both leads enter the same way and the part/PCB =
hasn't ramped up properly or the thermal rate of change isn't even across =
the part. Do you have a profiler that you could attach a thermalcouple =
wire to and chart what the part is seeing during the wave process?
Kathy=20
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style="FONT: 10pt Abadi MT Condensed Light; MARGIN-LEFT: 2px; MARGIN-TOP: 2px">
<DIV>I would think that ,dependent on the thermal ramp rate and the temperautre
spike at the entrance into the solder pot, you could damage a cap if one lead
enters first or if both leads enter the same way and the part/PCB hasn't ramped
up properly or the thermal rate of change isn't even across the part. Do you
have a profiler that you could attach a thermalcouple wire to and chart what the
part is seeing during the wave process?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Kathy </DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 15:48:41 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Phil Nutting <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: failing capacitors
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Nope
-----Original Message-----
From: Kathy Kuhlow [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 3:38 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] failing capacitors
I would think that ,dependent on the thermal ramp rate and the
temperautre spike at the entrance into the solder pot, you could damage
a cap if one lead enters first or if both leads enter the same way and
the part/PCB hasn't ramped up properly or the thermal rate of change
isn't even across the part. Do you have a profiler that you could attach
a thermalcouple wire to and chart what the part is seeing during the
wave process?
Kathy=20
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Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 14:05:28 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Jim Kittel <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Attaching Microwave Components
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Steve/Bruce,
Thanks for your inputs. Looks like we will need to connect the bottom of
the cases. Interesting comments on the nickel interface, have to check it
out.
Thanks Again,
Jim Kittel
-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen R. Gregory [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 12:35 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Attaching Microwave Components
Hi Jim!
We build quite a few RF assemblies here and most always solder the component
bodies to the ground plane. I get stencils made to print paste in the proper
patterns for each component. We solder RF bandpass filters, threshold
detectors, RF amplifiers, mixers, directional couplers, etc. this way...
As what once somebody else said; "Ground is god in RF assemblies..."
-Steve Gregory-
Hello Tec Netters,
We are de-buging a new circuit board containing a microwave filter operating
in the 2 - 3 Ghz range. This filter was soldered around the perimeter of
the case to the ENIG ground plane using 63/37 eutectic. The engineer is
stating that electrically the filter does not appear to be adequately
grounded to that plane. I am wondering if there is a better way to attach
these filters? Would it be better to solder the entire bottom of the filter
case to the plane? Is anyone using conductive epoxy? Liquid or sheet? I
would appeciate comments.
Thanks,
Jim Kittel
L-3 Communications
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<BODY>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=081300120-11102001>Steve/Bruce,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=081300120-11102001>Thanks
for your inputs. Looks like we will need to connect the bottom of the
cases. Interesting comments on the nickel interface, have to check it
out.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=081300120-11102001>Thanks
Again,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=081300120-11102001>Jim
Kittel</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Stephen R. Gregory
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 11, 2001 12:35
PM<BR><B>To:</B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [TN] Attaching
Microwave Components<BR><BR></DIV></FONT><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT
size=2>Hi Jim! <BR><BR>We build quite a few RF assemblies here and most always
solder the component bodies to the ground plane. I get stencils made to print
paste in the proper patterns for each component. We solder RF bandpass
filters, threshold detectors, RF amplifiers, mixers, directional couplers,
etc. this way... <BR><BR>As what once somebody else said; "Ground is god in RF
assemblies..." <BR><BR>-Steve Gregory- <BR><BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"
TYPE="CITE">Hello Tec Netters, <BR>We are de-buging a new circuit board
containing a microwave filter operating <BR>in the 2 - 3 Ghz range.
This filter was soldered around the perimeter of <BR>the case to the
ENIG ground plane using 63/37 eutectic. The engineer is <BR>stating
that electrically the filter does not appear to be adequately <BR>grounded
to that plane. I am wondering if there is a better way to attach
<BR>these filters? Would it be better to solder the entire bottom of
the filter <BR>case to the plane? Is anyone using conductive epoxy?
Liquid or sheet? I <BR>would appeciate comments. <BR>Thanks,
<BR>Jim Kittel <BR>L-3 Communications <BR></FONT><FONT color=#000000
face=Arial lang=0 size=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></FONT><FONT
color=#000000 face=Arial lang=0 size=2
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 16:30:34 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Nancy Reynolds/MKT/HQ/KEMET/US <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: failing capacitors
MIME-Version: 1.0
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My money is also on electrical/mis-application failure, unrelated to your
solder process, since you've already ruled out the obvious process issues.
Maybe this one designer always uses this part in an unsuitable application.
And he carries the same piece of circuitry over from one design to the
next.
We once had a customer who reported field failures of a 35V Tantalum cap on
a 5V line. After much trouble-shooting, we ultimately discovered that the
part was designed in with the wrong polarity. And the lay-out correlated
to the design, so the board showed (+) and (-) incorrectly as well. As a
result every single part placed on that circuit location was in reverse,
but since the part polarity matched the layout polarity we never suspected
reverse voltage as the cause of failure. Until the customer finally
tracked all the way back to the design error. To make matters worse, that
piece of circuitry had been a standard building-block used on many
products. They still have the occasional field failure even today although
the design was corrected many years ago.
I have no knowledge of film cap failure mechanisms, but I am sure that they
have certain weaknesses just like other components. If this designer is
using this part incorrectly in a design that he uses over and over, that
could be a potential explanation why only his part fails. Maybe he uses
different derating guidelines than the other designers and consequently,
his parts see higher stresses. Suggest you get your quality folks and the
design engineer and the Roederstein applications experts in a room
together to see if they can figure it out.
Good luck!
Nancy Reynolds
Phil Nutting <[log in to unmask]>@IPC.ORG> on 10/11/2001 12:53:40
PM
Please respond to "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
cc:
Subject: Re: [TN] failing capacitors
I'm not sure if this is an electrically induced failure. I can tell you
that when the cap is replaced the system works well and the cap no
longer shows signs of failing.
An interesting thought... used in an application it cannot support. I
don't have the answer to this one or the knowledge to analyze the
design.
Well, the EE specified what parts to use and the board layout designer
placed the components with the approval of the EE. So I guess they are
both at "fault".
-----Original Message-----
From: Guy Ramsey [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 10:09 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] failing capacitors
Are we sure that this is not an electrically induced failure? Is the
component serviing in an application that it cannot support? By designer
are
we talking EE or board layout designer?
Guy Ramsey
Senior Lab Technician / Instructor
E-Mail: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Ph: (610) 362-1200 x107
Fax: (610) 362-1290
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Phil Nutting
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 10:17 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] failing capacitors
Here is an interesting question.
We use Roederstein film capacitors (through hole configuration) in many
of our boards. Typically all boards are run through our wave solder
machine with the same recipe. The weird thing is that some of these
caps fail either open or shorted but only on the boards belonging to one
design engineer. Is this "full moon residue", a circuit design issue or
is it possible a regular failure that no one else is complaining about?
We keep track of our test failures and if this were happening on many
other boards we should be seeing the data, but there is none.
I'm interested in what your thoughts may be.
Thanks in advance.
Phil Nutting
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Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 16:33:55 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Phil Nutting <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: failing capacitors
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Nancy, I think you just hit the nail on the head!
Thanks
Phil
-----Original Message-----
From: Nancy Reynolds/MKT/HQ/KEMET/US [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 4:31 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] failing capacitors
My money is also on electrical/mis-application failure, unrelated to
your
solder process, since you've already ruled out the obvious process
issues.
Maybe this one designer always uses this part in an unsuitable
application.
And he carries the same piece of circuitry over from one design to the
next.
We once had a customer who reported field failures of a 35V Tantalum cap
on
a 5V line. After much trouble-shooting, we ultimately discovered that
the
part was designed in with the wrong polarity. And the lay-out
correlated
to the design, so the board showed (+) and (-) incorrectly as well. As
a
result every single part placed on that circuit location was in
reverse,
but since the part polarity matched the layout polarity we never
suspected
reverse voltage as the cause of failure. Until the customer finally
tracked all the way back to the design error. To make matters worse,
that
piece of circuitry had been a standard building-block used on many
products. They still have the occasional field failure even today
although
the design was corrected many years ago.
I have no knowledge of film cap failure mechanisms, but I am sure that
they
have certain weaknesses just like other components. If this designer is
using this part incorrectly in a design that he uses over and over, that
could be a potential explanation why only his part fails. Maybe he uses
different derating guidelines than the other designers and consequently,
his parts see higher stresses. Suggest you get your quality folks and
the
design engineer and the Roederstein applications experts in a room
together to see if they can figure it out.
Good luck!
Nancy Reynolds
Phil Nutting <[log in to unmask]>@IPC.ORG> on 10/11/2001
12:53:40
PM
Please respond to "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
cc:
Subject: Re: [TN] failing capacitors
I'm not sure if this is an electrically induced failure. I can tell you
that when the cap is replaced the system works well and the cap no
longer shows signs of failing.
An interesting thought... used in an application it cannot support. I
don't have the answer to this one or the knowledge to analyze the
design.
Well, the EE specified what parts to use and the board layout designer
placed the components with the approval of the EE. So I guess they are
both at "fault".
-----Original Message-----
From: Guy Ramsey [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 10:09 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] failing capacitors
Are we sure that this is not an electrically induced failure? Is the
component serviing in an application that it cannot support? By designer
are
we talking EE or board layout designer?
Guy Ramsey
Senior Lab Technician / Instructor
E-Mail: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Ph: (610) 362-1200 x107
Fax: (610) 362-1290
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Phil Nutting
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 10:17 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] failing capacitors
Here is an interesting question.
We use Roederstein film capacitors (through hole configuration) in many
of our boards. Typically all boards are run through our wave solder
machine with the same recipe. The weird thing is that some of these
caps fail either open or shorted but only on the boards belonging to one
design engineer. Is this "full moon residue", a circuit design issue or
is it possible a regular failure that no one else is complaining about?
We keep track of our test failures and if this were happening on many
other boards we should be seeing the data, but there is none.
I'm interested in what your thoughts may be.
Thanks in advance.
Phil Nutting
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Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 11:38:00 +0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "<Peter George Duncan>" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Question for the physics "gurus"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Very nice!!
Peter
Brian Ellis
<b_ellis@PROTO To: [log in to unmask]
NIQUE.COM> cc: (bcc: DUNCAN Peter/Asst Prin Engr/ST
Sent by: Aero/ST Group)
TechNet Subject: Re: [TN] Question for the physics
<[log in to unmask] "gurus"
RG>
10/11/01 02:07
PM
Please respond
to "TechNet
E-Mail Forum."
Ken
I'm damned sure that the black orange box may fall with an acceleration
of 1 g, up to when air resistance starts to slow it down, but if it
lands on a concrete road, it will decelerate at a very high value of g,
depending on the give in the concrete and the box itself. It's all a
matter of kinetic energy which is dissipated quasi-instantaneously. The
g-value would be lower if it landed on somebody's head, because the
latter being squashed down to the mid-torso would allow the acquired
energy from the free fall to be better dissipated. No mental energy
would be dissipated in such a case as the skull contents would be heated
to dissociation of the grey matter molecules into other carbon and
hydrogen combinations.
Brian
Ken Patel wrote:
>
> All,
> If G force is the gravitation force acting on the object then why many
times an object is
> being designed to take so may G forces. What I have heard that voice
recorder of the plane
> that went down in Pennsylvania can take on 700G force! So, if the free
fall is 1 G then why
> design 700 times safer. So, height above the ground does matter. May be I
got to take a look
> at the physic's book unless someone explain in layman's term.
>
> re,
> Ken Patel
>
> Timothy Reeves wrote:
>
> > No Jason,
> > I am not a guru, but that's OK. They are not interconvertible. One is a
> > measure of force, the other acceleration (actually a dimensionless
> > multiplier of the standard gravitational acceleration, g, 9.8 m/s^2).
If you
> > have an object in mind of a known mass, you could find the force
exerted on
> > it given the acceleration ("G's") by F = m a.
> >
> > Example: 100 gram object subjected to 5 G's ---------> F = 0.1 kg * 5 *
9.8
> > m/s^2 = 4.9 Newtons or 0.5 kilogram force or 1.1 lb-force.
> >
> > Tim Reeves
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jason Gregory [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 9:01 AM
> > Subject: Question for the physics "gurus"
> >
> > How do you convert pound/kilogram to G-force? Is this convertable?
Since
> > G-force is somewhat time derived and pound/kilogram is force derived?
> > Any help is appreciated.
> >
> > Jason Gregory
> > Software Specialist - NPI Group
> > SCI Systems/Plant 2
> > 13000 S. Memorial Pkwy.
> > Huntsville, AL. 35803
> > (256) 882-4107 x3728
> > [log in to unmask]
> >
> >
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Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 08:33:15 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Braime, Justin" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: LCC 20-pin 4x4mm
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Hi guys,
Anybody come across an LCC with 20 pins and only 4mm square? I'm looking at
one from RF MicroDevices - and their datasheet is lacking in the land
pattern department (very helpful...)
I need some advice re: land pattern design. IPC land pattern calc is no use
- it's not a standard LCC design.
All help gratefully received :)
Thanks
Justin Braime
Senior Production Engineer
Thales Instruments Ltd
480 Bath Rd, Slough
Berkshire, SL1 6BE
England
Tel: +44 (0)1628 604455
Fax: +44 (0)1628 662017
E-mail: [log in to unmask]
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Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 09:27:04 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: David Fish <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Recycling PWBs
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Try:
Compunotes 800.356.3759 609.768.6906 fax753.5922
Fox Electronics 309EbrokawRd San Jose, CA 408.437.1577 fax9299 Jeff Smith
Salvage 1, Brea, Ca 714-993-9973 James McNamara
NUSOURCE, 602-921-9636 Herb
Sipi Metals (recycle the PCB 100%) Chicago, IL 800-621-8013
Motherboard 312.842.6788 www.motherboardinc.com
Tecnotes 224 E Highland Pkwy Roselle, New Jersey 07203 908.620.3882 Ken
Kaplan [log in to unmask]
Dave Fish
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Kauling" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 9:09 AM
Subject: [TN] Recycling PWBs
> Good Morning,
>
> Does anyone have a source that they use to recycle or dispose of PWB's.
>
> Scott Kauling
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 06:58:01 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Debbie Goodwin <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: LCC 20-pin 4x4mm
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I wonder if what you are looking at is not a ceramic package at all but one
of the new plastic packages being offered.
Amkor calls these Micro Lead Frame (MLF) components.
Other manufacturers call them BCCs.
That lead count in that body size is one of the sizes available in Amkor's
MLF packages. The lead pitch is 0.5mm.
I believe that Amkor may have land patterns for that package available on
their website.
Sincerely
Debbie Goodwin
Account Representative
10867 Portal Dr
Los Alamitos, CA 90720
Phone = (714) 252-0010
Fax = (714) 252-0026
PLEASE NOTE - Effective Immediately New e-mail address is:
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__________________________________________________
This message is intended for the use of the individual entity to which it is
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-----Original Message-----
From: Braime, Justin [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 12:33 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] LCC 20-pin 4x4mm
Hi guys,
Anybody come across an LCC with 20 pins and only 4mm square? I'm looking at
one from RF MicroDevices - and their datasheet is lacking in the land
pattern department (very helpful...)
I need some advice re: land pattern design. IPC land pattern calc is no use
- it's not a standard LCC design.
All help gratefully received :)
Thanks
Justin Braime
Senior Production Engineer
Thales Instruments Ltd
480 Bath Rd, Slough
Berkshire, SL1 6BE
England
Tel: +44 (0)1628 604455
Fax: +44 (0)1628 662017
E-mail: [log in to unmask]
**********************************************************************
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
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Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 10:54:36 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Stephen R. Gregory" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: LCC 20-pin 4x4mm
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="part1_d7.d5bb96c.28f85e2c_boundary"
--part1_d7.d5bb96c.28f85e2c_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Debbie's right, check out:
http://www.amkor.com/products/notes_papers/MLF_AppNote_0301.pdf
-Steve Gregory-
> I wonder if what you are looking at is not a ceramic package at all but one
> of the new plastic packages being offered.
> Amkor calls these Micro Lead Frame (MLF) components.
> Other manufacturers call them BCCs.
>
--part1_d7.d5bb96c.28f85e2c_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>Debbie's right, check out:
<BR>
<BR>http://www.amkor.com/products/notes_papers/MLF_AppNote_0301.pdf
<BR>
<BR>-Steve Gregory-
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I wonder if what you are looking at is not a ceramic package at all but one
<BR>of the new plastic packages being offered.
<BR>Amkor calls these Micro Lead Frame (MLF) components.
<BR>Other manufacturers call them BCCs.
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT></HTML>
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Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 16:05:07 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Marsico, James" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Attaching Microwave Components
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
We had, on occasion, had to solder additional copper foil (solder coated)
from the filters to ground. Maybe this is an option.
Jim Marsico
Senior Engineer
Production Engineering
EDO Electronics Systems Group
[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
631-595-5879
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Kittel [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 11:27 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Attaching Microwave Components
Hello Tec Netters,
We are de-buging a new circuit board containing a microwave filter
operating
in the 2 - 3 Ghz range. This filter was soldered around the
perimeter of
the case to the ENIG ground plane using 63/37 eutectic. The
engineer is
stating that electrically the filter does not appear to be
adequately
grounded to that plane. I am wondering if there is a better way to
attach
these filters? Would it be better to solder the entire bottom of
the filter
case to the plane? Is anyone using conductive epoxy? Liquid or
sheet? I
would appeciate comments.
Thanks,
Jim Kittel
L-3 Communications
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Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 15:05:41 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Jerry Mosur <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Quad IVC MK2
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hello,
We are in the process on assembling a small SMD line for in-house use.
One of the first pieces we looked at is QUAD IVC MK2 pick and place machine.
I would like to find out what you guys think about this unit?
Since we will be doing a lot of short runs ease use and programming is very
important to us.
Any recommendations for all the pieces of the puzzle?
Thanks in advance,
Jerry
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Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 12:25:04 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Elensky, Richard" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Quad IVC MK2
X-To: Jerry Mosur <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Jerry,
The QUAD IV-C is a good low volume machine. We had 7 of the 3 / 4 -C
machines. The were reliable producers, although not built for speed.
Programming is not too bad. The utility package and placement are optimizer
pretty good. Get the off-line package from QUAD if it doesn't come with the
machine. You will need a CAD converter for your own CAD software.
If $$ are an issue, (they usually are in development), a good screen printer
to consider is the SMT-1414, -1616, -2020. They are semi-automatics that
can be found in many used equipment lists.
For stencils, I would suggest the use of foils and a universal frame.
(IIT offers a good solution ( www.integratedideas.com
<http://www.integratedideas.com> ) This keeps costs down, storage issues
at a minimum, and they are easy to handle.
Reflow oven? I would suggest the use of a convection oven, rather than IR.
There are many models available in many different styles. (inline, batch,
etc.) I was very happy with our Heller 988's and 1088's. Full convection,
4 zones top and bottom, external cooling zone.
Some type of profiling tool will be very important for developing your
reflow profiles. Datapaq, and MOLE are a few. They all work very well.
You may need some additional rework tools for the inevitable... Specialized
tools for QFP's, PLCC's and the likes.
Good luck, keep the 'net updated on your progress.
Richard Elensky
Sr. Manufacturing Engineer
[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Tel: 559-292-1111 x246
Fax: 559-292-9355
Dantel
2991 North Argyle Ave.
Fresno, CA, 93727
Visit our web site at:
http:// www.dantel.com <http://www.dantel.com>
----------
From: Jerry Mosur [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 12:06 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Quad IVC MK2
Hello,
We are in the process on assembling a small SMD line for in-house
use.
One of the first pieces we looked at is QUAD IVC MK2 pick and place
machine.
I would like to find out what you guys think about this unit?
Since we will be doing a lot of short runs ease use and programming
is very
important to us.
Any recommendations for all the pieces of the puzzle?
Thanks in advance,
Jerry
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Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 15:02:23 -0500
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Ashok Dhawan <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Alternative to FR-4
In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20011011120704.00b27520@a2-pop>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Knotts
I came across an interesting article on this recently. Please visit the
web-site :
http://www.circuitree.com/CDA/ArticleInformation/features/BNP__Features__Ite
m/0,2133,63942,00.html
Polyclad Laminates, Franklin, New Hampshire
Ashok Dhawan P.Eng.
Engineering
C-MAC Network Systems Inc.
1455 Mountain Roar
Winnipeg Manitoba R2X 2Y9
WWW.CMAC.COM
TEL (204) 631 7208
FAX (204) 631 7294
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Kaye Knotts
> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 11:15 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] Alternative to FR-4
>
>
> Dear Technetters,
>
> I have been asked a question that I need help answering.
>
> Is there a printed circuit board base material that
> would meet the same specs as multi-functional FR-4
> and does not use Bromine in the flame retardant chemistry.
>
> Can someone answer the question or point me in the right direction.
>
> Thank you very much.
>
> Kaye Knotts
> Keithley Instruments
> Solon, Ohio
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------
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> additional
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> 847-509-9700 ext.5315
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> ---------------
>
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Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 22:06:24 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Stephen R. Gregory" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Quad IVC MK2
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="part1_4c.1d4719.28fa4d20_boundary"
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Only thing that I would worry about, is long term support...Quad has been
aquired by Tyco...could be a good thing...but who knows?
http://philadelphia.bcentral.com/philadelphia/stories/2001/06/11/daily32.html
-Steve Gregory-
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>Only thing that I would worry about, is long term support...Quad has been aquired by Tyco...could be a good thing...but who knows?
<BR>
<BR>http://philadelphia.bcentral.com/philadelphia/stories/2001/06/11/daily32.html
<BR>
<BR>-Steve Gregory-
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>
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Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 12:20:09 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Ken Bly <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Signal integrity question
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
I am starting to design PCBs and have encountered a
few things that I am not familiar with. Can someone
explain to me exactly what the term "ground bounce"
means and how can it affect a synchronous digital
application? I appreciate any help and I'm sure I'll
have more questions as I dig deeper into new areas for
me.
Ken Bly
EP Services
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
http://personals.yahoo.com
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Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 15:56:38 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Stephen R. Gregory" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Signal integrity question
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hi Ken,
Here's a few links:
http://www.raytheon.com/c3i/c3iproducts/c3iral/reports/summer98/grobou.htm
http://www.computer.org/proceedings/vts/0146/01460095abs.htm
http://www.signalintegrity.com/news/1_12.htm
http://www.idt.com/docs/AN_147.pdf
http://www.pcisig.com/reflector/msg00616.html
http://www.ate.agilent.com/emt/LIBRARY/IN-CIRCUIT/DOCS/Ground_Bounce.pdf
-Steve Gregory-
> I am starting to design PCBs and have encountered a
> few things that I am not familiar with. Can someone
> explain to me exactly what the term "ground bounce"
> means and how can it affect a synchronous digital
> application? I appreciate any help and I'm sure I'll
> have more questions as I dig deeper into new areas for
> me.
>
> Ken Bly
> EP Services
>
>
>
--part1_6f.1c1c7d80.28fb47f6_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>Hi Ken,
<BR>
<BR>Here's a few links:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>http://www.raytheon.com/c3i/c3iproducts/c3iral/reports/summer98/grobou.htm
<BR>
<BR>http://www.computer.org/proceedings/vts/0146/01460095abs.htm
<BR>
<BR>http://www.signalintegrity.com/news/1_12.htm
<BR>
<BR>http://www.idt.com/docs/AN_147.pdf
<BR>
<BR>http://www.pcisig.com/reflector/msg00616.html
<BR>
<BR>http://www.ate.agilent.com/emt/LIBRARY/IN-CIRCUIT/DOCS/Ground_Bounce.pdf
<BR>
<BR>-Steve Gregory-
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I am starting to design PCBs and have encountered a
<BR>few things that I am not familiar with. Can someone
<BR>explain to me exactly what the term "ground bounce"
<BR>means and how can it affect a synchronous digital
<BR>application? I appreciate any help and I'm sure I'll
<BR>have more questions as I dig deeper into new areas for
<BR>me.
<BR>
<BR>Ken Bly
<BR>EP Services
<BR>
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT></HTML>
--part1_6f.1c1c7d80.28fb47f6_boundary--
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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 07:58:42 +0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "<Peter George Duncan>" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: LCC 20-pin 4x4mm
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
You should be able to use the land pattern calculator, either using the 3
formulae in IPC-SM-782 or from IPC's on-line calculator, as the result is
entirely based on the dimensions for max overall length, lead with, lead
contact length, with an RMS value for component tolerence (Ct), PCB
manufacturing tolerence (Mt) and P&P machine placement tolerence (Pt) i.e.
sq.rt.(Ct^2 + Mt^2 + Pt^2).
Otherwise, I suggest a rough calculation of max lead width + 0.02mm either
side for side fillet, max lead contact length + 0.4mm onto the outside and
0.3mm onto the inside for toe and heel fillets. For larger components, you
can almost discount the tolerences of manufacturing and placement
tolerences, as they're relatively quite small compared with component
tolerence, but for this device, if you have room between pads, I'ld at
least see what the RMS tolerence value does to the pad width and make a
judgement based on experience from there. Ball back in your court a bit.
I asked Technet for its opinion on calculating non-standard land patterns a
couple of weeks ago, and the answer from IPC was that they were working on
these issues, so really, you guess is as good as anyone else's.
Peter Duncan
"Braime,
Justin" To: [log in to unmask]
<jbraime@RACALI cc: (bcc: DUNCAN Peter/Asst Prin Engr/ST
NST.CO.UK> Aero/ST Group)
Sent by: Subject: [TN] LCC 20-pin 4x4mm
TechNet
<[log in to unmask]
G>
10/12/01 03:33
PM
Please respond
to "TechNet
E-Mail Forum."
Hi guys,
Anybody come across an LCC with 20 pins and only 4mm square? I'm looking at
one from RF MicroDevices - and their datasheet is lacking in the land
pattern department (very helpful...)
I need some advice re: land pattern design. IPC land pattern calc is no use
- it's not a standard LCC design.
All help gratefully received :)
Thanks
Justin Braime
Senior Production Engineer
Thales Instruments Ltd
480 Bath Rd, Slough
Berkshire, SL1 6BE
England
Tel: +44 (0)1628 604455
Fax: +44 (0)1628 662017
E-mail: [log in to unmask]
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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 11:52:10 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Graham Naisbitt <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Lead Free Surface finishes
X-To: LeadFree <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Techies and (I guess - Leadies?)
We are about to carry out some reliability test work, examining the
influences of electro-chemical reactions using SIR techniques.
The manufacturing process that will be employed involves lead-free soldering
materials, water based fluxes and water based conformal coatings. The
methodology we shall employ shall be as drafted in a new IEC draft spec
6-1189.
The coupon we will use is intended to model mixed technology as closely as
possible. We include through-hole connectors, J lead SOIC's, BGA 225, SMT
Capacitors and QFP 160.
We will use an LPIM resist and were going to examine 4 different surface
finishes:
NiAu (ENIG)
ImSn - Immersion Tin
ImAg - Immersion Silver
OSP
However, and to get to the question: We can't afford all these permutations
so, we shall select only one surface finish. Can you folks advise the most
popular surface finish that is likely to be used for lead-free processing?
Please, we would REALLY like a simple answer rather than to open a huge
dialogue - 'cos we have to get the testing done by Mid November and we have
yet to have the coupons made!!
Awaiting your replies with interest.
Regards, Graham Naisbitt
[log in to unmask]
www.concoat.co.uk
For instant access to Product Data Sheets register on the Tech-Shot area of
http://www.concoat.co.uk
Concoat Limited
Alasan House, Albany Park
CAMBERLEY GU16 7PH UK
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------=_NextPart_000_005C_01C1556F.D24D59E0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D220482410-15102001>Techies and (I guess=20
- Leadies?)</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D220482410-15102001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D220482410-15102001>We are =
about to=20
carry out some reliability test work, examining the influences of=20
electro-chemical reactions using SIR techniques.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D220482410-15102001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D220482410-15102001>The =
manufacturing=20
process that will be employed involves lead-free soldering materials, =
water=20
based fluxes and water based conformal coatings. The methodology we =
shall employ=20
shall be as drafted in a new IEC draft spec 6-1189.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D220482410-15102001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D220482410-15102001>The =
coupon we will=20
use is intended to model mixed technology as closely as possible. We =
include=20
through-hole connectors, J lead SOIC's, BGA 225, SMT Capacitors =
and QFP=20
160.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D220482410-15102001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D220482410-15102001>We =
will use an LPIM=20
resist and were going to examine 4 different surface=20
finishes:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D220482410-15102001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D220482410-15102001>NiAu=20
(ENIG)</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D220482410-15102001>ImSn - =
Immersion=20
Tin</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D220482410-15102001>ImAg - =
Immersion=20
Silver</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D220482410-15102001>OSP</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D220482410-15102001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D220482410-15102001>However, and to get=20
to the question: We can't afford all these permutations so, we shall =
select only=20
one surface finish. Can you folks advise the most popular surface finish =
that is=20
likely to be used for lead-free processing?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D220482410-15102001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D220482410-15102001>Please, we would=20
REALLY like a simple answer rather than to open a huge dialogue - 'cos =
we have=20
to get the testing done by Mid November and we have yet to have the =
coupons=20
made!!</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D220482410-15102001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D220482410-15102001>Awaiting your=20
replies with interest.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG>Regards, Graham=20
Naisbitt<BR><BR>[log in to unmask]<BR></STRONG><A=20
href=3D"http://www.concoat.co.uk/"><STRONG>www.concoat.co.uk</STRONG></A>=
</FONT></P>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>For instant access to Product Data =
Sheets register=20
on the Tech-Shot area of http://<A=20
href=3D"http://www.concoat.co.uk/">www.concoat.co.uk</A> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG>Concoat=20
Limited =
<BR>Alasan=20
House, Albany Park<BR>CAMBERLEY GU16 7PH UK<BR>Phone: +44 (0)1276 =
691100<BR>Fax:=20
+44 (0)1276 691227<BR>Mobile: +44 (0)79 6858 2121 </STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><B><FONT size=3D2>
<P>Attention: This message is for the named person's use only. It may =
contain=20
confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information. No =
confidentiality=20
or privilege is waived or lost by any mistransmission. If you receive =
this=20
message in error, please immediately delete it and all copies of it from =
your=20
system, destroy any hard copies of it securely and notify the sender. =
You must=20
not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy =
any part=20
of this message if you are not the intended recipient. Concoat Ltd and =
any of=20
its subsidiaries each reserve the right to monitor all e-mail =
communications=20
through its networks.</P>
<P>Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual =
sender,=20
except where the message states otherwise and the sender is authorised =
to state=20
them to be the views of Concoat Ltd or one of its subsidiaries.</P>
<P>Although this message has been scanned for known viruses and =
inappropriate=20
content, we recommend that recipients employ appropriate measures on =
their=20
systems to intercept any such material.</P>
<P>Thank You - Concoat Ltd</P></B></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 08:52:53 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Guy Ramsey <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Lead Free Surface finishes
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Wild guess . . . Immersion Silver.
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Graham Naisbitt
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 6:52 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Lead Free Surface finishes
Techies and (I guess - Leadies?)
We are about to carry out some reliability test work, examining the
influences of electro-chemical reactions using SIR techniques.
The manufacturing process that will be employed involves lead-free
soldering materials, water based fluxes and water based conformal coatings.
The methodology we shall employ shall be as drafted in a new IEC draft spec
6-1189.
The coupon we will use is intended to model mixed technology as closely as
possible. We include through-hole connectors, J lead SOIC's, BGA 225, SMT
Capacitors and QFP 160.
We will use an LPIM resist and were going to examine 4 different surface
finishes:
NiAu (ENIG)
ImSn - Immersion Tin
ImAg - Immersion Silver
OSP
However, and to get to the question: We can't afford all these
permutations so, we shall select only one surface finish. Can you folks
advise the most popular surface finish that is likely to be used for
lead-free processing?
Please, we would REALLY like a simple answer rather than to open a huge
dialogue - 'cos we have to get the testing done by Mid November and we have
yet to have the coupons made!!
Awaiting your replies with interest.
Regards, Graham Naisbitt
[log in to unmask]
www.concoat.co.uk
For instant access to Product Data Sheets register on the Tech-Shot area
of http://www.concoat.co.uk
Concoat Limited
Alasan House, Albany Park
CAMBERLEY GU16 7PH UK
Phone: +44 (0)1276 691100
Fax: +44 (0)1276 691227
Mobile: +44 (0)79 6858 2121
Attention: This message is for the named person's use only. It may contain
confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information. No
confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any mistransmission. If
you receive this message in error, please immediately delete it and all
copies of it from your system, destroy any hard copies of it securely and
notify the sender. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose,
distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the
intended recipient. Concoat Ltd and any of its subsidiaries each reserve the
right to monitor all e-mail communications through its networks.
Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender,
except where the message states otherwise and the sender is authorised to
state them to be the views of Concoat Ltd or one of its subsidiaries.
Although this message has been scanned for known viruses and inappropriate
content, we recommend that recipients employ appropriate measures on their
systems to intercept any such material.
Thank You - Concoat Ltd
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C15556.C726ED10
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.3105.105" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D692054512-15102001>Wild=20
guess . . . Immersion Silver.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> TechNet=20
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<B>On Behalf Of</B> Graham =
Naisbitt<BR><B>Sent:</B>=20
Monday, October 15, 2001 6:52 AM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
[log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> [TN] Lead Free Surface=20
finishes<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D220482410-15102001>Techies and (I=20
guess - Leadies?)</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D220482410-15102001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D220482410-15102001>We =
are about to=20
carry out some reliability test work, examining the influences of=20
electro-chemical reactions using SIR techniques.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D220482410-15102001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D220482410-15102001>The =
manufacturing=20
process that will be employed involves lead-free soldering materials, =
water=20
based fluxes and water based conformal coatings. The methodology we =
shall=20
employ shall be as drafted in a new IEC draft spec =
6-1189.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D220482410-15102001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D220482410-15102001>The =
coupon we will=20
use is intended to model mixed technology as closely as possible. We =
include=20
through-hole connectors, J lead SOIC's, BGA 225, SMT Capacitors =
and QFP=20
160.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D220482410-15102001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D220482410-15102001>We =
will use an=20
LPIM resist and were going to examine 4 different surface=20
finishes:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D220482410-15102001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D220482410-15102001>NiAu =
(ENIG)</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D220482410-15102001>ImSn =
- Immersion=20
Tin</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D220482410-15102001>ImAg =
- Immersion=20
Silver</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D220482410-15102001>OSP</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D220482410-15102001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D220482410-15102001>However, and to=20
get to the question: We can't afford all these permutations so, we =
shall=20
select only one surface finish. Can you folks advise the most popular =
surface=20
finish that is likely to be used for lead-free =
processing?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D220482410-15102001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D220482410-15102001>Please, we would=20
REALLY like a simple answer rather than to open a huge dialogue - 'cos =
we have=20
to get the testing done by Mid November and we have yet to have the =
coupons=20
made!!</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D220482410-15102001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D220482410-15102001>Awaiting your=20
replies with interest.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG>Regards, Graham=20
Naisbitt<BR><BR>[log in to unmask]<BR></STRONG><A=20
=
href=3D"http://www.concoat.co.uk/"><STRONG>www.concoat.co.uk</STRONG></A>=
</FONT></P>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>For instant access to Product Data =
Sheets=20
register on the Tech-Shot area of http://<A=20
href=3D"http://www.concoat.co.uk/">www.concoat.co.uk</A> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG>Concoat=20
=
Limited =
<BR>Alasan=20
House, Albany Park<BR>CAMBERLEY GU16 7PH UK<BR>Phone: +44 (0)1276=20
691100<BR>Fax: +44 (0)1276 691227<BR>Mobile: +44 (0)79 6858 2121=20
</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><B><FONT size=3D2>
<P>Attention: This message is for the named person's use only. It may =
contain=20
confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information. No=20
confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any mistransmission. =
If you=20
receive this message in error, please immediately delete it and all =
copies of=20
it from your system, destroy any hard copies of it securely and notify =
the=20
sender. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, =
distribute,=20
print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended =
recipient.=20
Concoat Ltd and any of its subsidiaries each reserve the right to =
monitor all=20
e-mail communications through its networks.</P>
<P>Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual =
sender,=20
except where the message states otherwise and the sender is authorised =
to=20
state them to be the views of Concoat Ltd or one of its =
subsidiaries.</P>
<P>Although this message has been scanned for known viruses and =
inappropriate=20
content, we recommend that recipients employ appropriate measures on =
their=20
systems to intercept any such material.</P>
<P>Thank You - Concoat Ltd</P></B></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C15556.C726ED10--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in
the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet
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Search previous postings at: www.ipc.org > On-Line Resources & Databases > E-mail Archives
Please visit IPC web site (http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm) for additional
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=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 09:11:23 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Wenger, George M (George)" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Lead Free Surface finishes
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C1557A.E3A113C0"
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C1557A.E3A113C0
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Graham,
The most popular surface finish for us Lucent/Celiant is Immersion Silver.
Regards,
George
George M. Wenger (609) 639-3210 [log in to unmask]
Celiant
Route 569 Carter Road PO Box 900
Hopewell, NJ 08525 Princeton, NJ 08542-0900
-----Original Message-----
From: Guy Ramsey [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 8:53 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Lead Free Surface finishes
Wild guess . . . Immersion Silver.
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Graham Naisbitt
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 6:52 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Lead Free Surface finishes
Techies and (I guess - Leadies?)
We are about to carry out some reliability test work, examining the
influences of electro-chemical reactions using SIR techniques.
The manufacturing process that will be employed involves lead-free soldering
materials, water based fluxes and water based conformal coatings. The
methodology we shall employ shall be as drafted in a new IEC draft spec
6-1189.
The coupon we will use is intended to model mixed technology as closely as
possible. We include through-hole connectors, J lead SOIC's, BGA 225, SMT
Capacitors and QFP 160.
We will use an LPIM resist and were going to examine 4 different surface
finishes:
NiAu (ENIG)
ImSn - Immersion Tin
ImAg - Immersion Silver
OSP
However, and to get to the question: We can't afford all these permutations
so, we shall select only one surface finish. Can you folks advise the most
popular surface finish that is likely to be used for lead-free processing?
Please, we would REALLY like a simple answer rather than to open a huge
dialogue - 'cos we have to get the testing done by Mid November and we have
yet to have the coupons made!!
Awaiting your replies with interest.
Regards, Graham Naisbitt
[log in to unmask]
<http://www.concoat.co.uk/> www.concoat.co.uk
For instant access to Product Data Sheets register on the Tech-Shot area of
http:// www.concoat.co.uk <http://www.concoat.co.uk/>
Concoat Limited
Alasan House, Albany Park
CAMBERLEY GU16 7PH UK
Phone: +44 (0)1276 691100
Fax: +44 (0)1276 691227
Mobile: +44 (0)79 6858 2121
Attention: This message is for the named person's use only. It may contain
confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information. No
confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any mistransmission. If
you receive this message in error, please immediately delete it and all
copies of it from your system, destroy any hard copies of it securely and
notify the sender. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose,
distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the
intended recipient. Concoat Ltd and any of its subsidiaries each reserve the
right to monitor all e-mail communications through its networks.
Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender,
except where the message states otherwise and the sender is authorised to
state them to be the views of Concoat Ltd or one of its subsidiaries.
Although this message has been scanned for known viruses and inappropriate
content, we recommend that recipients employ appropriate measures on their
systems to intercept any such material.
Thank You - Concoat Ltd
------_=_NextPart_001_01C1557A.E3A113C0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D968231013-15102001><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>Graham,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D968231013-15102001><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>The=20
most popular surface finish for us Lucent/Celiant is Immersion=20
Silver.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Regards,</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3D"Script =
MT Bold"=20
color=3D#800000 size=3D6>George</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>George M.=20
Wenger (609) 639-3210 =20
[log in to unmask]</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Celiant</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>Route 569 Carter=20
Road &n=
bsp; =20
PO Box 900</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hopewell, NJ=20
08525 &=
nbsp; &=
nbsp; =20
Princeton, NJ 08542-0900</FONT> </P>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Guy Ramsey=20
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, October 15, 2001 =
8:53=20
AM<BR><B>To:</B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [TN] Lead =
Free Surface=20
finishes<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D692054512-15102001>Wild=20
guess . . . Immersion Silver.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff =
2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> TechNet=20
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<B>On Behalf Of</B> Graham =
Naisbitt<BR><B>Sent:</B>=20
Monday, October 15, 2001 6:52 AM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
[log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> [TN] Lead Free Surface=20
finishes<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D220482410-15102001>Techies and (I=20
guess - Leadies?)</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D220482410-15102001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D220482410-15102001>We are about to=20
carry out some reliability test work, examining the influences of=20
electro-chemical reactions using SIR =
techniques.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D220482410-15102001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D220482410-15102001>The=20
manufacturing process that will be employed involves lead-free =
soldering=20
materials, water based fluxes and water based conformal coatings. =
The=20
methodology we shall employ shall be as drafted in a new IEC draft =
spec=20
6-1189.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D220482410-15102001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D220482410-15102001>The coupon we=20
will use is intended to model mixed technology as closely as =
possible. We=20
include through-hole connectors, J lead SOIC's, BGA 225, SMT =
Capacitors=20
and QFP 160.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D220482410-15102001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D220482410-15102001>We will use an=20
LPIM resist and were going to examine 4 different surface=20
finishes:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D220482410-15102001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D220482410-15102001>NiAu=20
(ENIG)</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D220482410-15102001>ImSn - Immersion=20
Tin</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D220482410-15102001>ImAg - Immersion=20
Silver</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D220482410-15102001>OSP</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D220482410-15102001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D220482410-15102001>However, and to=20
get to the question: We can't afford all these permutations so, we =
shall=20
select only one surface finish. Can you folks advise the most =
popular=20
surface finish that is likely to be used for lead-free=20
processing?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D220482410-15102001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D220482410-15102001>Please, we would=20
REALLY like a simple answer rather than to open a huge dialogue - =
'cos we=20
have to get the testing done by Mid November and we have yet to =
have the=20
coupons made!!</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D220482410-15102001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D220482410-15102001>Awaiting your=20
replies with interest.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG>Regards, Graham=20
Naisbitt<BR><BR>[log in to unmask]<BR></STRONG><A=20
=
href=3D"http://www.concoat.co.uk/"><STRONG>www.concoat.co.uk</STRONG></A=
></FONT></P>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>For instant access to Product Data =
Sheets=20
register on the Tech-Shot area of http://<A=20
href=3D"http://www.concoat.co.uk/">www.concoat.co.uk</A> =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG>Concoat=20
=
Limited  =
; <BR>Alasan=20
House, Albany Park<BR>CAMBERLEY GU16 7PH UK<BR>Phone: +44 (0)1276=20
691100<BR>Fax: +44 (0)1276 691227<BR>Mobile: +44 (0)79 6858 2121=20
</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><B><FONT size=3D2>
<P>Attention: This message is for the named person's use only. It =
may=20
contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged =
information. No=20
confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any =
mistransmission. If=20
you receive this message in error, please immediately delete it and =
all=20
copies of it from your system, destroy any hard copies of it =
securely and=20
notify the sender. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, =
disclose,=20
distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not =
the=20
intended recipient. Concoat Ltd and any of its subsidiaries each =
reserve the=20
right to monitor all e-mail communications through its =
networks.</P>
<P>Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual =
sender,=20
except where the message states otherwise and the sender is =
authorised to=20
state them to be the views of Concoat Ltd or one of its =
subsidiaries.</P>
<P>Although this message has been scanned for known viruses and=20
inappropriate content, we recommend that recipients employ =
appropriate=20
measures on their systems to intercept any such material.</P>
<P>Thank You - Concoat Ltd</P></B></FONT></DIV>
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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 15:18:05 +0200
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Busko, Wolfgang" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: AW: [TN] Lead Free Surface finishes
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
It=B4s hard I believe to get the most popular finish for leadfree =
especially
regarding future trends.
So let=B4s talk about my favorite and the number of boards produced =
over one
year.
Maybe that=B4ll bring some figures to compare or to discuss.
=20
Well, for me it=B4s Ni/Au with 5000PCB/year.
=20
Good luck=20
=20
Wolfgang
-----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Wenger, George M (George) [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Gesendet am: Montag, 15. Oktober 2001 15:11
An: [log in to unmask]
Betreff: Re: [TN] Lead Free Surface finishes
Graham,
The most popular surface finish for us Lucent/Celiant is Immersion =
Silver.
=20
Regards,=20
George=20
George M. Wenger (609) 639-3210 [log in to unmask]
Celiant=20
Route 569 Carter Road PO Box 900=20
Hopewell, NJ 08525 Princeton, NJ 08542-0900 =
-----Original Message-----
From: Guy Ramsey [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 8:53 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Lead Free Surface finishes
Wild guess . . . Immersion Silver.
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Graham Naisbitt
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 6:52 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Lead Free Surface finishes
Techies and (I guess - Leadies?)
=20
We are about to carry out some reliability test work, examining the
influences of electro-chemical reactions using SIR techniques.
=20
The manufacturing process that will be employed involves lead-free =
soldering
materials, water based fluxes and water based conformal coatings. The
methodology we shall employ shall be as drafted in a new IEC draft spec
6-1189.
=20
The coupon we will use is intended to model mixed technology as closely =
as
possible. We include through-hole connectors, J lead SOIC's, BGA 225, =
SMT
Capacitors and QFP 160.
=20
We will use an LPIM resist and were going to examine 4 different =
surface
finishes:
=20
NiAu (ENIG)
ImSn - Immersion Tin
ImAg - Immersion Silver
OSP
=20
However, and to get to the question: We can't afford all these =
permutations
so, we shall select only one surface finish. Can you folks advise the =
most
popular surface finish that is likely to be used for lead-free =
processing?
=20
Please, we would REALLY like a simple answer rather than to open a huge
dialogue - 'cos we have to get the testing done by Mid November and we =
have
yet to have the coupons made!!
=20
Awaiting your replies with interest.
Regards, Graham Naisbitt
[log in to unmask]
<http://www.concoat.co.uk/> www.concoat.co.uk
For instant access to Product Data Sheets register on the Tech-Shot =
area of
http:// www.concoat.co.uk <http://www.concoat.co.uk/> =20
Concoat Limited =20
Alasan House, Albany Park
CAMBERLEY GU16 7PH UK
Phone: +44 (0)1276 691100
Fax: +44 (0)1276 691227
Mobile: +44 (0)79 6858 2121=20
=20
Attention: This message is for the named person's use only. It may =
contain
confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information. No
confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any mistransmission. =
If
you receive this message in error, please immediately delete it and all
copies of it from your system, destroy any hard copies of it securely =
and
notify the sender. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose,
distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the
intended recipient. Concoat Ltd and any of its subsidiaries each =
reserve the
right to monitor all e-mail communications through its networks.
Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender,
except where the message states otherwise and the sender is authorised =
to
state them to be the views of Concoat Ltd or one of its subsidiaries.
Although this message has been scanned for known viruses and =
inappropriate
content, we recommend that recipients employ appropriate measures on =
their
systems to intercept any such material.
Thank You - Concoat Ltd
=20
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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 09:24:37 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Furrow, Robert Gordon (Bob)" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Lead Free Surface finishes
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Graham,
I responded to a question regarding surface finish choices on the LeadFree
forum back in August. It explains my thinking as to why Lucent chose
Immersion Silver as the right finish for a lot of our product. I do not
intend to state that it is the most popular choice, nor will be in the near
future, but it is one with which we are comfortable. These are of course my
thoughts as to surface finish choices and not those of Lucent as a whole. I
have copied my previous response below.
At Lucent, we have also struggled with the optimal choice of a surface
finish. I will try to give you my thinking as to each coating.
Electroless Nickel Immersion Gold (ENIG) can be an excellent choice, but I
feel its success is very dependent on the board vendor. Controlling the ENIG
process is the most difficult of the surface choices about which you
inquired. If the nickel deposition is not well controlled, it can lead to
problems. If the bath is run in low volumes, I feel that control can be very
difficult. Also, the phenomena of "Black Pad" has caused us great concern.
It is a very difficult failure to detect because you can easily pass ICT
with these fractured joints, and then get into a an intermittent problem
once in the field. Also, our experience on wetting to nickel to form
nickel/tin intermetallics is only a fraction of that which we have attained
over the years for wetting to copper and forming copper/tin intermetallics.
Soldermask attack can also be an issue. Finally, during our evaluation of
ENIG we found that it could not hold up to temperature/humidity for even 24
hours. Although, this is not real production conditions, it indicated that
the coating wasn't as robust as the Immersion Silver (ImAg) tested in
parallel.
Immersion Tin (ImSn) is also felt to be suspect. With the thin coatings
expected on the board, we are concerned with shelf life. We do use ImSn for
press-fit backplanes, but do not recommend it for SMT or TH applications. We
completed assembly testing with ImSn a few years ago that indicated there
was a higher defect rate at assembly than with other finishes. However, I
want to stress that this was one formulation and that improvements may have
been made. However, there is still the issue of intermetallic formation
consuming the tin, reducing shelf life and making multiple thermal cycles
problematic. Also, the chemistry involved is more of a health hazard than
those used with OSP's or immersion silver.
We have used OSP's for almost two decades now and in general have had good
success. With proper care in handling, and usage of nitrogen blanketing to
reduce oxygen levels during thermal excursions, we have been able to
accomplish good soldering on multiple thermal cycles. The reason we no
longer prefer OSP is not because of the coating itself, but due to isolated
busts that have occurred. We have seen defects caused by very thin layers of
soldermask residue on the pads and also due to incomplete removal of tin
strip residues after etching. Also, with via in pad product we have
experienced where the inside of the small holes are not completely dried and
thereby break down the surface of the pad and reduce solderability. These
busts can't be detected until after expensive components have been attached
to the board. These are low level type situations, but when they occur they
cost a lot of money because we end up junking that product. I know you could
scrape the pad and repair the individual defect, but you can't determine if
there are other marginal areas on the board that meet visual requirements
yet may be marginal and be a reliability concern.
Immersion Silver (ImAg) is now the surface of choice for Lucent. We
underwent extensive testing during 1997 and introduced the finish into
production in 1998. A paper detailing our testing was presented at IPC
summit on Surface Finishes and PWB Solderability in September 1999. We have
since produced a large quantity of circuit packs with this finish and are
very satisfied with our results. Although there have been a couple of
isolated
incidents, the problems encountered with this coating are less than any
other with which we have experience.
If you would like further information, please contact me.
_____
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Lucent Technologies
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<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=831491213-15102001>Graham,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=831491213-15102001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=831491213-15102001>I
responded to a question regarding surface finish choices on the LeadFree forum
back in August. It explains my thinking as to why Lucent chose Immersion
Silver as the right finish for a lot of our product. I do not intend to
state that it is the most popular choice, nor will be in the near future, but it
is one with which we are comfortable. These are of course my thoughts as to
surface finish choices and not those of Lucent as a whole. I have copied my
previous response below.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=831491213-15102001> </DIV>
<TABLE cellPadding=0 cellSpacing=0 class=MSG width="100%">
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD class=MSG><PRE>
At Lucent, we have also struggled with the optimal choice of a surface
finish. I will try to give you my thinking as to each coating.
<P>
Electroless Nickel Immersion Gold (ENIG) can be an excellent choice, but I
feel its success is very dependent on the board vendor. Controlling the ENIG
process is the most difficult of the surface choices about which you
inquired. If the nickel deposition is not well controlled, it can lead to
problems. If the bath is run in low volumes, I feel that control can be very
difficult. Also, the phenomena of "Black Pad" has caused us great concern.
It is a very difficult failure to detect because you can easily pass ICT
with these fractured joints, and then get into a an intermittent problem
once in the field. Also, our experience on wetting to nickel to form
nickel/tin intermetallics is only a fraction of that which we have attained
over the years for wetting to copper and forming copper/tin intermetallics.
Soldermask attack can also be an issue. Finally, during our evaluation of
ENIG we found that it could not hold up to temperature/humidity for even 24
hours. Although, this is not real production conditions, it indicated that
the coating wasn't as robust as the Immersion Silver (ImAg) tested in
parallel.
<P>
Immersion Tin (ImSn) is also felt to be suspect. With the thin coatings
expected on the board, we are concerned with shelf life. We do use ImSn for
press-fit backplanes, but do not recommend it for SMT or TH applications. We
completed assembly testing with ImSn a few years ago that indicated there
was a higher defect rate at assembly than with other finishes. However, I
want to stress that this was one formulation and that improvements may have
been made. However, there is still the issue of intermetallic formation
consuming the tin, reducing shelf life and making multiple thermal cycles
problematic. Also, the chemistry involved is more of a health hazard than
those used with OSP's or immersion silver.
<P>
We have used OSP's for almost two decades now and in general have had good
success. With proper care in handling, and usage of nitrogen blanketing to
reduce oxygen levels during thermal excursions, we have been able to
accomplish good soldering on multiple thermal cycles. The reason we no
longer prefer OSP is not because of the coating itself, but due to isolated
busts that have occurred. We have seen defects caused by very thin layers of
soldermask residue on the pads and also due to incomplete removal of tin
strip residues after etching. Also, with via in pad product we have
experienced where the inside of the small holes are not completely dried and
thereby break down the surface of the pad and reduce solderability. These
busts can't be detected until after expensive components have been attached
to the board. These are low level type situations, but when they occur they
cost a lot of money because we end up junking that product. I know you could
scrape the pad and repair the individual defect, but you can't determine if
there are other marginal areas on the board that meet visual requirements
yet may be marginal and be a reliability concern.
<P>
Immersion Silver (ImAg) is now the surface of choice for Lucent. We
underwent extensive testing during 1997 and introduced the finish into
production in 1998. A paper detailing our testing was presented at IPC
summit on Surface Finishes and PWB Solderability in September 1999. We have
since produced a large quantity of circuit packs with this finish and are
very satisfied with our results. Although <SPAN class=831491213-15102001>there </SPAN>have been a couple of isolated
incidents, the problems encountered with this coating are less than any
other with which we have experience.
<P>
If you would like further information, please contact me.
<HR width="58%"><A href="http://jefry.ipc.org/SCRIPTS/WA.EXE?A3=ind0108&L=Leadfree&P=2368662&E=0&B=------_=_NextPart_001_01C12FCE.1726C5F0&T=text/html" target=blank>[text/html]</A><P>
</P></PRE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
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<DIV> </DIV>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman">Thanks,</FONT> <BR><I><FONT color=#000080
face="Comic Sans MS">Robert Furrow</FONT></I> <BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2>Printed Wiring Board Engineer</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2>Strategic Supply Global Account Manager</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2>Supply Chain Networks</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>Lucent
Technologies</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2>978-960-3224 <U> </U></FONT><U><FONT color=#0000ff
face=Arial size=2>[log in to unmask]</FONT></U> </P>
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=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 09:49:23 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Bev Christian <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Lead Free Surface finishes
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Graham,
Since you are looking at SIR/EM type testing an not solder joint testing,
then things like spacing and voltage gradient, etc are more important than
part type. So to cut cost (if you have not already bought your coupons),
design a board with fewer component types, use all surface finishes and run
it as a DOE so you do not have to use every different combination of
variables.
regards,
Bev Christian
Research in Motion
-----Original Message-----
From: Graham Naisbitt [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: October 15, 2001 6:52 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Lead Free Surface finishes
Techies and (I guess - Leadies?)
We are about to carry out some reliability test work, examining the
influences of electro-chemical reactions using SIR techniques.
The manufacturing process that will be employed involves lead-free soldering
materials, water based fluxes and water based conformal coatings. The
methodology we shall employ shall be as drafted in a new IEC draft spec
6-1189.
The coupon we will use is intended to model mixed technology as closely as
possible. We include through-hole connectors, J lead SOIC's, BGA 225, SMT
Capacitors and QFP 160.
We will use an LPIM resist and were going to examine 4 different surface
finishes:
NiAu (ENIG)
ImSn - Immersion Tin
ImAg - Immersion Silver
OSP
However, and to get to the question: We can't afford all these permutations
so, we shall select only one surface finish. Can you folks advise the most
popular surface finish that is likely to be used for lead-free processing?
Please, we would REALLY like a simple answer rather than to open a huge
dialogue - 'cos we have to get the testing done by Mid November and we have
yet to have the coupons made!!
Awaiting your replies with interest.
Regards, Graham Naisbitt
[log in to unmask]
<http://www.concoat.co.uk/> www.concoat.co.uk
For instant access to Product Data Sheets register on the Tech-Shot area of
http:// www.concoat.co.uk <http://www.concoat.co.uk/>
Concoat Limited
Alasan House, Albany Park
CAMBERLEY GU16 7PH UK
Phone: +44 (0)1276 691100
Fax: +44 (0)1276 691227
Mobile: +44 (0)79 6858 2121
Attention: This message is for the named person's use only. It may contain
confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information. No
confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any mistransmission. If
you receive this message in error, please immediately delete it and all
copies of it from your system, destroy any hard copies of it securely and
notify the sender. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose,
distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the
intended recipient. Concoat Ltd and any of its subsidiaries each reserve the
right to monitor all e-mail communications through its networks.
Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender,
except where the message states otherwise and the sender is authorised to
state them to be the views of Concoat Ltd or one of its subsidiaries.
Although this message has been scanned for known viruses and inappropriate
content, we recommend that recipients employ appropriate measures on their
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Thank You - Concoat Ltd
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<DIV><SPAN class=220224413-15102001><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Graham,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=220224413-15102001><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Since
you are looking at SIR/EM type testing an not solder joint testing, then things
like spacing and voltage gradient, etc are more important than part type.
So to cut cost (if you have not already bought your coupons), design a board
with fewer component types, use all surface finishes and run it as a DOE so you
do not have to use every different combination of variables.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=220224413-15102001><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=220224413-15102001><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>regards,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=220224413-15102001><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Bev
Christian</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=220224413-15102001><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Research in Motion</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Graham Naisbitt
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> October 15, 2001 6:52
AM<BR><B>To:</B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> [TN] Lead Free Surface
finishes<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=220482410-15102001>Techies and (I
guess - Leadies?)</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=220482410-15102001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=220482410-15102001>We are about to
carry out some reliability test work, examining the influences of
electro-chemical reactions using SIR techniques.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=220482410-15102001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=220482410-15102001>The manufacturing
process that will be employed involves lead-free soldering materials, water
based fluxes and water based conformal coatings. The methodology we shall
employ shall be as drafted in a new IEC draft spec 6-1189.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=220482410-15102001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=220482410-15102001>The coupon we will
use is intended to model mixed technology as closely as possible. We include
through-hole connectors, J lead SOIC's, BGA 225, SMT Capacitors and QFP
160.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=220482410-15102001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=220482410-15102001>We will use an
LPIM resist and were going to examine 4 different surface
finishes:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=220482410-15102001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=220482410-15102001>NiAu
(ENIG)</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=220482410-15102001>ImSn - Immersion
Tin</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=220482410-15102001>ImAg - Immersion
Silver</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=220482410-15102001>OSP</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=220482410-15102001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=220482410-15102001>However, and to
get to the question: We can't afford all these permutations so, we shall
select only one surface finish. Can you folks advise the most popular surface
finish that is likely to be used for lead-free processing?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=220482410-15102001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=220482410-15102001>Please, we would
REALLY like a simple answer rather than to open a huge dialogue - 'cos we have
to get the testing done by Mid November and we have yet to have the coupons
made!!</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=220482410-15102001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=220482410-15102001>Awaiting your
replies with interest.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><STRONG>Regards, Graham
Naisbitt<BR><BR>[log in to unmask]<BR></STRONG><A
href="http://www.concoat.co.uk/"><STRONG>www.concoat.co.uk</STRONG></A></FONT></P>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>For instant access to Product Data Sheets
register on the Tech-Shot area of http://<A
href="http://www.concoat.co.uk/">www.concoat.co.uk</A> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR><FONT face=Arial size=2><STRONG>Concoat
Limited <BR>Alasan
House, Albany Park<BR>CAMBERLEY GU16 7PH UK<BR>Phone: +44 (0)1276
691100<BR>Fax: +44 (0)1276 691227<BR>Mobile: +44 (0)79 6858 2121
</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><B><FONT size=2>
<P>Attention: This message is for the named person's use only. It may contain
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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 10:04:40 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Brad Saunders <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Lead Free Surface finishes
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="part1_f5.10bca155.28fc46f8_boundary"
--part1_f5.10bca155.28fc46f8_boundary
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I see immersion silver as being most increased demand, immersion tin number
two. Today due to fine pitch components and required flatness/uniformity not
afforded by HASL, and the varying degree of nickel in ENIG. Folks using OSP
generally stay there.
The only "hiccup" is moving to or from ENIG, it will take assembly
process/material sutle/significate adjustments.
The bottomline one word answer: silver
Brad
--part1_f5.10bca155.28fc46f8_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>I see immersion silver as being most increased demand, immersion tin number two. Today due to fine pitch components and required flatness/uniformity not afforded by HASL, and the varying degree of nickel in ENIG. Folks using OSP generally stay there.
<BR>The only "hiccup" is moving to or from ENIG, it will take assembly process/material sutle/significate adjustments.
<BR>The bottomline one word answer: silver
<BR>
<BR>Brad</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 10:46:03 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Marsico, James" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: THERMOUNT PWB
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Dear Technet:
It looks like we're designing a double-sided surface mount multilayer board
using Thermount material, instead of CIC. Are there any assembly issues I
should know about?
Thanks in advance,
Jim Marsico
Senior Engineer
Production Engineering
EDO Electronics Systems Group
[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
631-595-5879
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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 11:46:15 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Bev Christian <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: THERMOUNT PWB
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Jim,
Have used the stuff (in a past work situation) and like it. Need to watch
out for z axis expansion and sag across wide boards when they are heated.
regards,
Bev Christian
Research in Motion
-----Original Message-----
From: Marsico, James [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: October 15, 2001 10:46 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] THERMOUNT PWB
Dear Technet:
It looks like we're designing a double-sided surface mount multilayer board
using Thermount material, instead of CIC. Are there any assembly issues I
should know about?
Thanks in advance,
Jim Marsico
Senior Engineer
Production Engineering
EDO Electronics Systems Group
[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
631-595-5879
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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 08:53:12 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Crepeau, Phil" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: THERMOUNT PWB
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
hi,
just make sure the thermount boards are dessicated.
phil
-----Original Message-----
From: Marsico, James [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 7:46 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] THERMOUNT PWB
Dear Technet:
It looks like we're designing a double-sided surface mount multilayer board
using Thermount material, instead of CIC. Are there any assembly issues I
should know about?
Thanks in advance,
Jim Marsico
Senior Engineer
Production Engineering
EDO Electronics Systems Group
[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
631-595-5879
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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 09:01:36 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: William Sullivan <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: padsPCB question
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Good Morning fellow Tech Netters,,
I have a software question regarding Pads PCB,, Is there a
slick work around to generate multiple board outlines on the same
layout.. and to make things more ugly im inporting from Autocad !!!! if
not,, how can i import one set of lines into a boardout line and the
other into cutouts from Autocad at the same time ?????
Thanks Bill
William Sullivan C.I.D
SR. PCB Design Engineer
Luminent Inc
20550 nordhoff St.
Chatsworth CA, 91311
818-773-9044 EX 2114
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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 09:07:51 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Whittaker, Dewey E. (AZ75)" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: THERMOUNT PWB
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
James,
Beware of moisture absorption,Z axis expansion,pad adhesion and signal
integrity issues,if you are dealing with controlled impedance at below 0
temperatures.
Dewey
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marsico, James [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 7:46 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] THERMOUNT PWB
>
> Dear Technet:
>
> It looks like we're designing a double-sided surface mount multilayer
> board
> using Thermount material, instead of CIC. Are there any assembly issues I
> should know about?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Jim Marsico
> Senior Engineer
> Production Engineering
> EDO Electronics Systems Group
> [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> 631-595-5879
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 09:13:44 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: William Sullivan <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: complainer wave guides
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Fellow Techies,,
One more question if I may,, Ive just secured a job
working for a top level communications company,, yaaaaaaaa!! anyway,,
the boards that I will be designing are at very high speeds and require
differential paired complainer wave guides,, can anyone point me in the
right direction for study guides or online literature on this design
technique
Thanks Bill
William Sullivan C.I.D
SR. PCB Design Engineer
Luminent Inc
20550 nordhoff St.
Chatsworth CA, 91311
818-773-9044 EX 2114
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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 13:03:08 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "McGlaughlin, Jeffrey A" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: padsPCB question
X-To: "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Bill -
If you are using a release of PowerPCB prior to V4.0 there is no elegant
solution to your problem that I know of. You are forced to import cutouts as
2d lines and trace them as board objects to create a cutout. With version
4.0 of the software you can import them and then convert them to board
objects directly, no tracing required.
Jeffrey A. McGlaughlin CID
Sr. Designer
Battelle Memorial Institute
Columbus Ohio
[log in to unmask]
-----Original Message-----
From: William Sullivan [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 12:02 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] padsPCB question
Good Morning fellow Tech Netters,,
I have a software question regarding Pads PCB,, Is there a
slick work around to generate multiple board outlines on the same
layout.. and to make things more ugly im inporting from Autocad !!!! if
not,, how can i import one set of lines into a boardout line and the
other into cutouts from Autocad at the same time ?????
Thanks Bill
William Sullivan C.I.D
SR. PCB Design Engineer
Luminent Inc
20550 nordhoff St.
Chatsworth CA, 91311
818-773-9044 EX 2114
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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 13:35:56 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "McGlaughlin, Jeffrey A" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: complainer wave guides
X-To: "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I will assume that the complainer is due to an over zealous spell-checker
and that you meant to say co-planer. My limited RF experience as taught me
that the only *complainers* involved with RF circuit boards tend to be the
circuit design engineer. ( I need more ground...you can't put ground under
that part...can't you just place it like its drawn in the schematic...)
For a good grounding in RF design you should check on attending Rick
Hartley's
seminar on "High-speed Design for PCB Designers", Rick does a great job at
cutting out all the frills and covering the information you need to do the
design. You might also want to invest in a copy of Howard Johnson and Martin
Graham's book -
High Speed Digital Design: A Handbook of Black Magic. Check Amazon, they
have a special on it paired with Clyde Coombs' Printed Circuits Handbook.
Good Luck,
Jeffrey A. McGlaughlin CID
Sr. Designer
Battelle Memorial Institute
Columbus Ohio
[log in to unmask]
-----Original Message-----
From: William Sullivan [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 12:14 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] complainer wave guides
Hello Fellow Techies,,
One more question if I may,, Ive just secured a job
working for a top level communications company,, yaaaaaaaa!! anyway,,
the boards that I will be designing are at very high speeds and require
differential paired complainer wave guides,, can anyone point me in the
right direction for study guides or online literature on this design
technique
Thanks Bill
William Sullivan C.I.D
SR. PCB Design Engineer
Luminent Inc
20550 nordhoff St.
Chatsworth CA, 91311
818-773-9044 EX 2114
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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 10:51:21 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Brooks,Bill" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: complainer wave guides
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Congrats on the new job, Bill!
Co-planar (pronounced: KOH-PLANE-ARE ) ... 2 or more circuit traces or lines
that move in or share the same physical and electrical plane together.
(Might be what you are referring to...) Roger's Microwave materials website
has some technical data you might find interesting. Here's the link to the
website -
http://www.rogers-corp.com/mwu/litintbl.htm
Good luck,
Bill Brooks
PCB Design Engineer , C.I.D.
DATRON WORLD COMMUNICATIONS, INC
3030 Enterprise Court
Vista, CA 92083
Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510
mailto:[log in to unmask]
IPC Designers Council, San Diego Chapter
http://www.ipc.org/SanDiego/
http://home.fda.net/bbrooks/pca/pca.htm
-----Original Message-----
From: William Sullivan [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 9:14 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] complainer wave guides
Hello Fellow Techies,,
One more question if I may,, Ive just secured a job
working for a top level communications company,, yaaaaaaaa!! anyway,,
the boards that I will be designing are at very high speeds and require
differential paired complainer wave guides,, can anyone point me in the
right direction for study guides or online literature on this design
technique
Thanks Bill
William Sullivan C.I.D
SR. PCB Design Engineer
Luminent Inc
20550 nordhoff St.
Chatsworth CA, 91311
818-773-9044 EX 2114
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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 11:09:33 -0700
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: David Ricketts <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: padsPCB question
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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PADS only allows one instance of a board outline. As to importing from
Autocad, there is an app note at
http://www.innoveda.com/support/kb/powerpcb/ApplicationNote/Creating_an_Auto
CAD_drawing_for_pcb_bga.htm
The above line will probably wrap, so use cut and paste to go to the
address.
David Ricketts
Pertek Engineering
Voice: 949-475-4485
Fax: 949-475-4493
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of William Sullivan
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 9:02 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] padsPCB question
Good Morning fellow Tech Netters,,
I have a software question regarding Pads PCB,, Is there a
slick work around to generate multiple board outlines on the same
layout.. and to make things more ugly im inporting from Autocad !!!! if
not,, how can i import one set of lines into a boardout line and the
other into cutouts from Autocad at the same time ?????
Thanks Bill
William Sullivan C.I.D
SR. PCB Design Engineer
Luminent Inc
20550 nordhoff St.
Chatsworth CA, 91311
818-773-9044 EX 2114
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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 14:11:28 -0400
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Leo Lambert <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Acronym definition
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Stumped!
In TM-650 method 2.3.27, Sect 4.0 Apparatus, Materials, it mentions a) TEST
SOLUTIONS - HLPC TEST SOLUTION with 1.0%; v/v phosphoric acide and 0.1% v/v
water added.
What is v/v?
The same exists in 2.3.25 paragraph 4.2.4, 4.3.2 and 5.3.1.
This information is not in the Acronym table. Any help will be appreciated.
Leo Lambert
EPTAC Corp.
Amherst NH.
1-603-673-7822 ext 15
www.eptac.com
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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 15:28:15 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Gary Ferrari <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: SNEC Meeting
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="part1_e.14173dd6.28fc92cf_boundary"
--part1_e.14173dd6.28fc92cf_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Language: en
MEETING OF THE SOUTHERN NEW ENGLANDCHAPTER
OF THE IPC DESIGNERS COUNCIL
=20
Date: Wednesday, the 17th of October 2001
=20
Where: Connies Restaurant - Derby, Ct.
Time: Networking 6:00pm, Meeting 7:00pm
Topic: Thermal Management
We have planned a very exciting presentation by Gareth Parry, Field=20
Applications Engineer at Coretec Canada on Thermal Management at the board=20
level.
Gareth=E2=80=99s presentation is an in depth look at the abilities to meet t=
he=20
growing demand of thermal dissipation of the printed wired board. We will=20
investigate the use of
IMpcb and ITSpcb technologies and their associated design and=20
manufacturability considerations.=20
Gareth will take us through the use of heavycopper, thermal vias, thermally=20
dissipative materials and integrated heatsinks. A must for the thermally=20
challenged circuit board designer.
This is an extremely popular presentation and I advise you respond as soon a=
s=20
possible because space is limited.
Coretec is one of the leading fabricators of printed circuit boards "PCBs" i=
n=20
the North American and European markets. Their solutions include field=20
engineering support, R&D, PCB education, PCB design and consulting, Prototyp=
e=20
fabrication and QTA production.
Host:
=20
The meeting will be hosted by our chapter.
You are requested to RSVP Vin Stabile by end of business on Tuesday at (203)=
=20
968-1403 or <A HREF=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>
Directions to Connie=E2=80=99s Restaurant:
Take Route 84 to Route 8 South.
Take Route 8 to Route 34, towards Derby.=20
Make a right turn at the SECOND traffic light.
Connies is one block, on the right.
--part1_e.14173dd6.28fc92cf_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Language: en
<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><P ALIGN=3DCENTER><FONT SIZE=3D2><B>MEET=
ING OF THE SOUTHERN NEW ENGLANDCHAPTER</B>
<BR><B>OF THE IPC DESIGNERS COUNCIL</B>
<BR><P ALIGN=3DLEFT><B> </B>
<BR><B>Date: </B>Wednesday, the 17th of October 2001
<BR><B> </B>
<BR><B>Where: </B>Connies Restaurant - Derby, Ct.
<BR>
<BR><B>Time: </B>Networking 6:00pm, Meeting 7:00pm
<BR>
<BR><B>Topic:</B> Thermal Management
<BR>
<BR>We have planned a very exciting presentation by Gareth Parry, Field Appl=
ications Engineer at Coretec Canada on Thermal Management at the board level=
.
<BR>
<BR>Gareth=E2=80=99s presentation is an in depth look at the abilities to me=
et the growing demand of thermal dissipation of the printed wired board. We=20=
will investigate the use of
<BR>IMpcb and ITSpcb technologies and their associated design and manufactur=
ability considerations.=20
<BR>
<BR>Gareth will take us through the use of heavycopper, thermal vias, therma=
lly dissipative materials and integrated heatsinks. A must for the thermally=
challenged circuit board designer.
<BR>
<BR>This is an extremely popular presentation and I advise you respond as so=
on as possible because space is limited.
<BR>
<BR>Coretec is one of the leading fabricators of printed circuit boards "PCB=
s" in the North American and European markets. Their solutions include field=
engineering support, R&D, PCB education, PCB design and consulting, Pro=
totype fabrication and QTA production.
<BR>
<BR><B>Host:</B>
<BR><B> </B>
<BR>The meeting will be hosted by our chapter.
<BR>
<BR>You are requested to RSVP Vin Stabile by end of business on Tuesday at (=
203) 968-1403 or <A HREF=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</=
A>
<BR>
<BR>Directions to Connie=E2=80=99s Restaurant:
<BR>
<BR>Take Route 84 to Route 8 South.
<BR>Take Route 8 to Route 34, towards Derby.=20
<BR>Make a right turn at the SECOND traffic light.
<BR>Connies is one block, on the right.
<BR></P></P></FONT></HTML>
--part1_e.14173dd6.28fc92cf_boundary--
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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 12:54:48 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
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From: William Sullivan <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SNEC Meeting
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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 13:06:55 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Timothy Reeves <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Acronym definition
X-To: Leo Lambert <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
v/v = volume/volume
in other words, 1 mL of phosphoric acid in 100 mL of water
as opposed to w/v (weight/volume) , or w/w (weight/weight).
Tim Reeves
-----Original Message-----
From: Leo Lambert [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 11:11 AM
Subject: Acronym definition
Stumped!
In TM-650 method 2.3.27, Sect 4.0 Apparatus, Materials, it mentions a) TEST
SOLUTIONS - HLPC TEST SOLUTION with 1.0%; v/v phosphoric acide and 0.1% v/v
water added.
What is v/v?
The same exists in 2.3.25 paragraph 4.2.4, 4.3.2 and 5.3.1.
This information is not in the Acronym table. Any help will be appreciated.
Leo Lambert
EPTAC Corp.
Amherst NH.
1-603-673-7822 ext 15
www.eptac.com
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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 16:57:07 -0400
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Leo Lambert <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Acronyms
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Thank you all for the information, I appreciate the quick responses.
Thanks again Leo Lambert
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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 16:16:49 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Mary Jane Chism <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Particulate matter
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I have a questions concerning the power of magnification that should be used
to inspect a populated assembly for particulate matter. I have reviewed the
IPC-A-610 and also the IPC-A-600 manuals for indication of what power of
magnification used to inspect lint, dross, etc. I really did not find an
answer, unless I am looking in the wrong place. It seems the naked eye would
be sufficient, but our manufacturing is telling us to inspect a 7X. If
anyone has an answer, we would appreciate it. Thanks.
------_=_NextPart_001_01C155BE.B3EE2340
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
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5.5.2653.12">
<TITLE>Particulate matter</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I have a questions concerning the =
power of magnification that should be used to inspect a populated =
assembly for particulate matter. I have reviewed the IPC-A-610 and also =
the IPC-A-600 manuals for indication of what power of magnification =
used to inspect lint, dross, etc. I really did not find an answer, =
unless I am looking in the wrong place. It seems the naked eye would be =
sufficient, but our manufacturing is telling us to inspect a 7X. If =
anyone has an answer, we would appreciate it. Thanks.</FONT></P>
</BODY>
</HTML>
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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 17:16:53 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Gary Ferrari <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SNEC Meeting
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Bill,
Rick may be reached at : 614-798-1199 x2026
Cheers,
Gary
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>Bill,
<BR>
<BR>Rick may be reached at : 614-798-1199 x2026
<BR>
<BR>Cheers,
<BR>
<BR>Gary
<BR></FONT></HTML>
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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 16:25:25 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Houston, Terri" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Mitsui's BN resin system
I'm looking for information on a board resin system that's supposed to have
a Tg around 300C. I was told it's the next generation of BT, made by Mitsui
and called BN. My web searches came up dry.
If anyone has any leads on where I can find more information, I'd appreciate
it.
Thanks,
Terri
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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 14:27:24 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Barmuta, Mike" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Acronym definition
X-To: "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Leo: v/v stands for volume/volume and is "typically" water as the solvent
and whatever chemical you are diluting as the solute. This is different than
say w/w or bw which is by weight.
Example: One liter of a 1.0% v/v solution of phosphoric acid would be 10 ml
of concentrated phosphoric acid added to 990 ml of water to yield 1 liter of
solution. One kilogram of an aqueous 1% bw solution of sodium thiosulfate
would be 10 grams of sodium thiosulfate added to enough water to make 1000gm
of solution.
For the most part these are pretty straight forward, however as
concentrations go up or the solvent is changed from water to something with
a greatly different Sp.Gr. and the dissociation of the solute varies they
become more difficult. That is why normality "N" or molarity "M" are
typically used.
Regards
Michael Barmuta
Staff Engineer
Fluke Corp.
Everett WA
425-446-6076
-----Original Message-----
From: Leo Lambert [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 11:11 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Acronym definition
Stumped!
In TM-650 method 2.3.27, Sect 4.0 Apparatus, Materials, it mentions a) TEST
SOLUTIONS - HLPC TEST SOLUTION with 1.0%; v/v phosphoric acide and 0.1% v/v
water added.
What is v/v?
The same exists in 2.3.25 paragraph 4.2.4, 4.3.2 and 5.3.1.
This information is not in the Acronym table. Any help will be appreciated.
Leo Lambert
EPTAC Corp.
Amherst NH.
1-603-673-7822 ext 15
www.eptac.com
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=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 17:43:56 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "PERALTA, Kevin (BREA)" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Particulate matter
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Page 1-4 in the Foreword (IPC-A-610, Table 1-2)
-----Original Message-----
From: Mary Jane Chism [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 2:17 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Particulate matter
I have a questions concerning the power of magnification that should be used
to inspect a populated assembly for particulate matter. I have reviewed the
IPC-A-610 and also the IPC-A-600 manuals for indication of what power of
magnification used to inspect lint, dross, etc. I really did not find an
answer, unless I am looking in the wrong place. It seems the naked eye would
be sufficient, but our manufacturing is telling us to inspect a 7X. If
anyone has an answer, we would appreciate it. Thanks.
------_=_NextPart_001_01C155C2.7DE17AF0
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charset="iso-8859-1"
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<TITLE>Particulate matter</TITLE>
<META content="MSHTML 5.00.2920.0" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=161004221-15102001>Page
1-4 in the Foreword (IPC-A-610, Table 1-2)</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Mary Jane Chism
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, October 15, 2001 2:17
PM<BR><B>To:</B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> [TN] Particulate
matter<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2>I have a questions concerning the power of
magnification that should be used to inspect a populated assembly for
particulate matter. I have reviewed the IPC-A-610 and also the IPC-A-600
manuals for indication of what power of magnification used to inspect lint,
dross, etc. I really did not find an answer, unless I am looking in the wrong
place. It seems the naked eye would be sufficient, but our manufacturing is
telling us to inspect a 7X. If anyone has an answer, we would appreciate it.
Thanks.</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
------_=_NextPart_001_01C155C2.7DE17AF0--
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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 16:56:33 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Mary Jane Chism <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Particulate matter
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Kevin,
I reviewed this table before I sent this email out. From my understanding,
it is referring to the soldered connections and what power should be used to
inspect and a referee if needed.
-----Original Message-----
From: PERALTA, Kevin (BREA) [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 4:44 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Particulate matter
Page 1-4 in the Foreword (IPC-A-610, Table 1-2)
-----Original Message-----
From: Mary Jane Chism [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 2:17 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Particulate matter
I have a questions concerning the power of magnification that should be used
to inspect a populated assembly for particulate matter. I have reviewed the
IPC-A-610 and also the IPC-A-600 manuals for indication of what power of
magnification used to inspect lint, dross, etc. I really did not find an
answer, unless I am looking in the wrong place. It seems the naked eye would
be sufficient, but our manufacturing is telling us to inspect a 7X. If
anyone has an answer, we would appreciate it. Thanks.
------_=_NextPart_001_01C155C4.40D69440
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<TITLE>Particulate matter</TITLE>
<META content="MSHTML 5.50.4807.2300" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=620465019-15102001><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Kevin,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=620465019-15102001><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I
reviewed this table before I sent this email out. From my understanding, it is
referring to the soldered connections and what power should be used to inspect
and a referee if needed.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> PERALTA, Kevin (BREA)
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, October 15, 2001 4:44
PM<BR><B>To:</B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [TN] Particulate
matter<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=161004221-15102001>Page
1-4 in the Foreword (IPC-A-610, Table 1-2)</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Mary Jane Chism
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, October 15, 2001 2:17
PM<BR><B>To:</B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> [TN] Particulate
matter<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2>I have a questions concerning the power of
magnification that should be used to inspect a populated assembly for
particulate matter. I have reviewed the IPC-A-610 and also the IPC-A-600
manuals for indication of what power of magnification used to inspect lint,
dross, etc. I really did not find an answer, unless I am looking in the
wrong place. It seems the naked eye would be sufficient, but our
manufacturing is telling us to inspect a 7X. If anyone has an answer, we
would appreciate it. Thanks.</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
------_=_NextPart_001_01C155C4.40D69440--
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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 16:58:36 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Neda Thrash <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Particulate matter
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
J-STD-001 C paragraph 8.3.3.2; Visual Requirements, might be of help to =
you.
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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 17:00:14 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Kathy Kuhlow <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Particulate matter
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I think that would depend on the type of particluate. I've been places =
where if there is some particulate from say a routing operation after =
complete assembly processing then this wasn't a concern. =20
Kathy =20
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<DIV>I think that would depend on the type of particluate. I've been
places where if there is some particulate from say a routing operation after
complete assembly processing then this wasn't a concern. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Kathy </DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 18:56:54 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "PERALTA, Kevin (BREA)" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Particulate matter
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Yes, it's for solder connections & complete electronic assemblies (all
inspection, which Cleanliness is part of)). In other words, it's the
criteria per IPC-A-610, which includes checking bare boards & assemblies for
particulate matter. The call out for PTH's, or lands are there to give you
the criteria for magnification. Hope this clarifies it.
-----Original Message-----
From: Mary Jane Chism [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 2:57 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Particulate matter
Kevin,
I reviewed this table before I sent this email out. From my understanding,
it is referring to the soldered connections and what power should be used to
inspect and a referee if needed.
-----Original Message-----
From: PERALTA, Kevin (BREA) [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 4:44 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Particulate matter
Page 1-4 in the Foreword (IPC-A-610, Table 1-2)
-----Original Message-----
From: Mary Jane Chism [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 2:17 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Particulate matter
I have a questions concerning the power of magnification that should be used
to inspect a populated assembly for particulate matter. I have reviewed the
IPC-A-610 and also the IPC-A-600 manuals for indication of what power of
magnification used to inspect lint, dross, etc. I really did not find an
answer, unless I am looking in the wrong place. It seems the naked eye would
be sufficient, but our manufacturing is telling us to inspect a 7X. If
anyone has an answer, we would appreciate it. Thanks.
------_=_NextPart_001_01C155CC.AF343C50
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<TITLE>Particulate matter</TITLE>
<META content="MSHTML 5.00.2920.0" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=568324922-15102001>Yes,
it's for solder connections & complete electronic assemblies (all
inspection, which Cleanliness is part of)). In other words, it's the criteria
per IPC-A-610, which includes checking bare boards & assemblies for
particulate matter. The call out for PTH's, or lands are there to give you the
criteria for magnification. Hope this clarifies it.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Mary Jane Chism
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, October 15, 2001 2:57
PM<BR><B>To:</B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [TN] Particulate
matter<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV><SPAN class=620465019-15102001><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial
size=2>Kevin,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=620465019-15102001><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2>I
reviewed this table before I sent this email out. From my understanding, it is
referring to the soldered connections and what power should be used to inspect
and a referee if needed.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> PERALTA, Kevin (BREA)
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, October 15, 2001 4:44
PM<BR><B>To:</B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [TN] Particulate
matter<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=161004221-15102001>Page 1-4 in the Foreword (IPC-A-610, Table
1-2)</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Mary Jane Chism
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, October 15, 2001 2:17
PM<BR><B>To:</B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> [TN] Particulate
matter<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2>I have a questions concerning the power of
magnification that should be used to inspect a populated assembly for
particulate matter. I have reviewed the IPC-A-610 and also the IPC-A-600
manuals for indication of what power of magnification used to inspect
lint, dross, etc. I really did not find an answer, unless I am looking in
the wrong place. It seems the naked eye would be sufficient, but our
manufacturing is telling us to inspect a 7X. If anyone has an answer, we
would appreciate it.
Thanks.</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
------_=_NextPart_001_01C155CC.AF343C50--
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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 19:39:46 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Stephen R. Gregory" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Mitsui's BN resin system
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hi Terri,
I looked too, can't find anything about Mitsui, but did run across a link
about some laminate systems from Allied Signal called their P97 and P27
systems...they have Tg's up around 260 C. (TMA)...hoo-doggies! That still be
pretty toasty....Go to:
http://www.insulectro.com/pdf/p97+p27.pdf
I'll still keep lookin'...
-Steve Gregory-
> I'm looking for information on a board resin system that's supposed to have
> a Tg around 300C. I was told it's the next generation of BT, made by Mitsui
> and called BN. My web searches came up dry.
>
> If anyone has any leads on where I can find more information, I'd appreciate
> it.
>
> Thanks,
> Terri
>
--part1_120.5913164.28fccdc2_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>Hi Terri,
<BR>
<BR>I looked too, can't find anything about Mitsui, but did run across a link about some laminate systems from Allied Signal called their P97 and P27 systems...they have Tg's up around 260 C. (TMA)...hoo-doggies! That still be pretty toasty....Go to:
<BR>
<BR>http://www.insulectro.com/pdf/p97+p27.pdf
<BR>
<BR>I'll still keep lookin'...
<BR>
<BR>-Steve Gregory-
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I'm looking for information on a board resin system that's supposed to have
<BR>a Tg around 300C. I was told it's the next generation of BT, made by Mitsui
<BR>and called BN. My web searches came up dry.
<BR>
<BR>If anyone has any leads on where I can find more information, I'd appreciate
<BR>it.
<BR>
<BR>Thanks,
<BR>Terri
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT></HTML>
--part1_120.5913164.28fccdc2_boundary--
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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:41:34 +0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Hann Pang <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Thermally conductive adhesive
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Dear technet,
I'm looking for suggestions on thermaly conductive adhesives for heat sink
bonding:
-Conductivity around 1W/mk,
-easy to dispense
-preferably one part epoxies for high adhesion.
Any idea about the costs? of course i understand cheap might not be good.
Hann
[log in to unmask]
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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 13:07:00 +0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Ken Fong <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Automatic tape and reel machine
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hi, Technetters,
We have some parts designed for tape and reel packaging (following EIA-481
standards) and are for SMD pick and place machine to automatically assemble them
onto the printed circuit boards. But these parts now have to be manually put
into the tape. Would like to ask if there is any equipment in the market that
can do the tape and reel process automatically? Appreciate your response.
Ken
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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 09:10:44 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Neil Atkinson <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Lead Free Surface finishes
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Graham,
I agree with Bev. A DOE can be designed to reduce the permutations needed
and still get good results. You need to be talking to a good statistician
or (dare I say it) someone who has done a six sigma course.
Neil
-----Original Message-----
From: Bev Christian [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 15 October 2001 14:49
Subject: Re: Lead Free Surface finishes
Graham,
Since you are looking at SIR/EM type testing an not solder joint testing,
then things like spacing and voltage gradient, etc are more important than
part type. So to cut cost (if you have not already bought your coupons),
design a board with fewer component types, use all surface finishes and run
it as a DOE so you do not have to use every different combination of
variables.
regards,
Bev Christian
Research in Motion
-----Original Message-----
From: Graham Naisbitt [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: October 15, 2001 6:52 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Lead Free Surface finishes
Techies and (I guess - Leadies?)
We are about to carry out some reliability test work, examining the
influences of electro-chemical reactions using SIR techniques.
The manufacturing process that will be employed involves lead-free soldering
materials, water based fluxes and water based conformal coatings. The
methodology we shall employ shall be as drafted in a new IEC draft spec
6-1189.
The coupon we will use is intended to model mixed technology as closely as
possible. We include through-hole connectors, J lead SOIC's, BGA 225, SMT
Capacitors and QFP 160.
We will use an LPIM resist and were going to examine 4 different surface
finishes:
NiAu (ENIG)
ImSn - Immersion Tin
ImAg - Immersion Silver
OSP
However, and to get to the question: We can't afford all these permutations
so, we shall select only one surface finish. Can you folks advise the most
popular surface finish that is likely to be used for lead-free processing?
Please, we would REALLY like a simple answer rather than to open a huge
dialogue - 'cos we have to get the testing done by Mid November and we have
yet to have the coupons made!!
Awaiting your replies with interest.
Regards, Graham Naisbitt
[log in to unmask]
<http://www.concoat.co.uk/> www.concoat.co.uk
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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 10:40:24 +0300
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Weiner Mickey <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Holtite Socket
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C15615.D10AC350"
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C15615.D10AC350
Content-Type: text/plain
Hi,
I came across a "Holtite socket" (registered mark) which is used, as far as
I understand,
to house through hole components in press fit type boards - mainly
backplane - I assume.
I will appreciate any information and user experience on the subject
including special tooling,if required , sources, etc.
Mickey
Michael Weiner
Tel (972-3) 9262937
Fax (972-3) 9261803
mailto:[log in to unmask]
------_=_NextPart_001_01C15615.D10AC350
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
5.5.2652.35">
<TITLE>Holtite Socket</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Hi,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> I came across a "Holtite =
socket" (registered mark) which is used, as far as I =
understand,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> to house through hole =
components in press fit type boards - mainly backplane - I =
assume. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> I will appreciate any =
information and user experience on the subject</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> including special tooling,if =
required , sources, etc.</FONT>=20
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Mickey</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial (Hebrew)"> </FONT>
</P>
<P><I><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Terminal">Michael Weiner</FONT></I>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Terminal">Tel (972-3) 9262937</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Terminal">Fax (972-3) 9261803</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"><A =
HREF=3D"mailto:mickey.weiner">mailto:mickey.weiner</A></FONT><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">@</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">enavis</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">.com</FONT>
</P>
</BODY>
</HTML>
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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 08:10:46 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Phil Nutting <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Thermally conductive adhesive
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Hann,
Have you looked into Loctite. They have all sorts of adhesives.
www.loctite.com
Phil
-----Original Message-----
From: Hann Pang [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 11:42 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Thermally conductive adhesive
Dear technet,
I'm looking for suggestions on thermaly conductive adhesives for heat
sink
bonding:
-Conductivity around 1W/mk,
-easy to dispense
-preferably one part epoxies for high adhesion.
Any idea about the costs? of course i understand cheap might not be
good.
Hann
[log in to unmask]
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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 07:32:01 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Woelfel, Tim" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Thermally conductive adhesive
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
I agree, Loctite might be your solution. Have very good luck using their
products in the past.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Phil Nutting [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 7:11 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Thermally conductive adhesive
>
> Hann,
>
> Have you looked into Loctite. They have all sorts of adhesives.
> www.loctite.com
>
> Phil
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hann Pang [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 11:42 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] Thermally conductive adhesive
>
>
> Dear technet,
>
> I'm looking for suggestions on thermaly conductive adhesives for heat
> sink
> bonding:
>
> -Conductivity around 1W/mk,
> -easy to dispense
> -preferably one part epoxies for high adhesion.
>
> Any idea about the costs? of course i understand cheap might not be
> good.
>
> Hann
> [log in to unmask]
>
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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 07:35:36 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Adrian Irwin <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: SEHO Wavesoldering
I am lead to believe that Seho are market leaders in Wavesoldering
equipment. Does anybody have any comments to make about this Company, good
and bad.
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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 06:53:47 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Barry Gallegos <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SEHO Wave soldering
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I don't know about that, but I converted from Electrovert to
Vitronics Soltec, and I will never use anything else again.
Barry
-----Original Message-----
From: Adrian Irwin [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 6:36 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] SEHO Wavesoldering
I am lead to believe that Seho are market leaders in Wavesoldering
equipment. Does anybody have any comments to make about this Company, good
and bad.
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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 07:11:33 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Marsico, James" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: PWB ASSEMBLY BURN-IN TEST
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Good day Technet:
We're being asked to perform a burn-in test (160 HRS @ 125=BAC and 352 =
HRS @
100=BAC) on a surface mount assembly. I'm sure that the parts can =
withstand
this environment, but what about the PWB and solder joints?
Jim Marsico
Senior Engineer
Production Engineering
EDO Electronics Systems Group
[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>=20
631-595-5879
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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 09:21:25 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Marion A. Graybeal" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Mitsui's BN resin system
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Terri,
BT resin is made by Mitsubishi Gas Chemical Company, Inc. not Mitsui.
Marion Graybeal
----- Original Message -----
From: Houston, Terri <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 5:25 PM
Subject: [TN] Mitsui's BN resin system
> I'm looking for information on a board resin system that's supposed to
have
> a Tg around 300C. I was told it's the next generation of BT, made by
Mitsui
> and called BN. My web searches came up dry.
>
> If anyone has any leads on where I can find more information, I'd
appreciate
> it.
>
> Thanks,
> Terri
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 09:36:05 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Hinners Hans M Civ WRALC/LUGE <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Mitsui's BN resin system
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi All,
Adding to Marion's post - Nelco has the US license for some of the BT
systems.
http://www.nelcointernational.com/
Hans
Integrity First - Service Before Self - Excellence in All We Do
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hans M. Hinners
Electronics Engineer
Warner Robins - Air Logistics Center (WR-ALC/LUGE)
Special Operations Forces System Program Office (SOF - SPO)
Gunship Team
226 Cochran Street
Robins AFB GA 31098-1622
mailto:[log in to unmask]
Com: (478) 926 - 5224
Fax: (478) 926 - 4911
DSN Prefix: 468
-----Original Message-----
From: Marion A. Graybeal [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 9:21 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Mitsui's BN resin system
Terri,
BT resin is made by Mitsubishi Gas Chemical Company, Inc. not Mitsui.
Marion Graybeal
----- Original Message -----
From: Houston, Terri <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 5:25 PM
Subject: [TN] Mitsui's BN resin system
> I'm looking for information on a board resin system that's supposed to
have
> a Tg around 300C. I was told it's the next generation of BT, made by
Mitsui
> and called BN. My web searches came up dry.
>
> If anyone has any leads on where I can find more information, I'd
appreciate
> it.
>
> Thanks,
> Terri
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 09:08:28 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "<Dan Cavaliere>" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SEHO Wavesoldering
MIME-Version: 1.0
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This is a multipart message in MIME format.
--=_alternative 00481FF885256AE7_=
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
We recently got rid of a Seho 7240 that we had many problems with and
purchased a Vitronics Soltec 6622 which is
working great.
Adrian Irwin <[log in to unmask]>
Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
10/16/01 08:35 AM
Please respond to "TechNet E-Mail Forum."
To: [log in to unmask]
cc:
Subject: [TN] SEHO Wavesoldering
I am lead to believe that Seho are market leaders in Wavesoldering
equipment. Does anybody have any comments to make about this Company, good
and bad.
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--=_alternative 00481FF885256AE7_=
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">We recently got rid of a Seho 7240 that we had many problems with and purchased a Vitronics Soltec 6622 which is </font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">working great. </font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>Adrian Irwin <[log in to unmask]></b></font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]></font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">10/16/01 08:35 AM</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Please respond to "TechNet E-Mail Forum."</font>
<br>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial"> </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif"> To: [log in to unmask]</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif"> cc: </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif"> Subject: [TN] SEHO Wavesoldering</font></table>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">I am lead to believe that Seho are market leaders in Wavesoldering<br>
equipment. Does anybody have any comments to make about this Company, good<br>
and bad.<br>
<br>
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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 07:31:40 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Crepeau, Phil" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Lead Free Surface finishes
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
hi,
i'd like to recommend a great book that can get you started on a doe. it's 'design for quality' by lochner and matar. amazon has it. it clearly explains the entire process in engineering terms, and it has lots of complete, unambiguous, every day practical examples. no six sigma training necessary.
phil
-----Original Message-----
From: Neil Atkinson [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 1:11 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Lead Free Surface finishes
Graham,
I agree with Bev. A DOE can be designed to reduce the permutations needed
and still get good results. You need to be talking to a good statistician
or (dare I say it) someone who has done a six sigma course.
Neil
-----Original Message-----
From: Bev Christian [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 15 October 2001 14:49
Subject: Re: Lead Free Surface finishes
Graham,
Since you are looking at SIR/EM type testing an not solder joint testing,
then things like spacing and voltage gradient, etc are more important than
part type. So to cut cost (if you have not already bought your coupons),
design a board with fewer component types, use all surface finishes and run
it as a DOE so you do not have to use every different combination of
variables.
regards,
Bev Christian
Research in Motion
-----Original Message-----
From: Graham Naisbitt [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: October 15, 2001 6:52 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Lead Free Surface finishes
Techies and (I guess - Leadies?)
We are about to carry out some reliability test work, examining the
influences of electro-chemical reactions using SIR techniques.
The manufacturing process that will be employed involves lead-free soldering
materials, water based fluxes and water based conformal coatings. The
methodology we shall employ shall be as drafted in a new IEC draft spec
6-1189.
The coupon we will use is intended to model mixed technology as closely as
possible. We include through-hole connectors, J lead SOIC's, BGA 225, SMT
Capacitors and QFP 160.
We will use an LPIM resist and were going to examine 4 different surface
finishes:
NiAu (ENIG)
ImSn - Immersion Tin
ImAg - Immersion Silver
OSP
However, and to get to the question: We can't afford all these permutations
so, we shall select only one surface finish. Can you folks advise the most
popular surface finish that is likely to be used for lead-free processing?
Please, we would REALLY like a simple answer rather than to open a huge
dialogue - 'cos we have to get the testing done by Mid November and we have
yet to have the coupons made!!
Awaiting your replies with interest.
Regards, Graham Naisbitt
[log in to unmask]
<http://www.concoat.co.uk/> www.concoat.co.uk
For instant access to Product Data Sheets register on the Tech-Shot area of
http:// www.concoat.co.uk <http://www.concoat.co.uk/>
Concoat Limited
Alasan House, Albany Park
CAMBERLEY GU16 7PH UK
Phone: +44 (0)1276 691100
Fax: +44 (0)1276 691227
Mobile: +44 (0)79 6858 2121
Attention: This message is for the named person's use only. It may contain
confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information. No
confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any mistransmission. If
you receive this message in error, please immediately delete it and all
copies of it from your system, destroy any hard copies of it securely and
notify the sender. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose,
distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the
intended recipient. Concoat Ltd and any of its subsidiaries each reserve the
right to monitor all e-mail communications through its networks.
Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender,
except where the message states otherwise and the sender is authorised to
state them to be the views of Concoat Ltd or one of its subsidiaries.
Although this message has been scanned for known viruses and inappropriate
content, we recommend that recipients employ appropriate measures on their
systems to intercept any such material.
Thank You - Concoat Ltd
#####################################################################################
Attention:
This message is for the named person's use only. It may contain confidential,
proprietary or legally privileged information. No confidentiality or privilege
is waived or lost by any mistransmission. If you receive this message in error,
please immediately delete it and all copies of it from your system, destroy any
hard copies of it securely and notify the sender. You must not, directly or
indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message
if you are not the intended recipient. STADIUM GROUP PLC and any of its subsidiaries
each reserve the right to monitor all e-mail communications through its networks.
Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where
the message states otherwise and the sender is authorised to state them to be the
views of Stadium Group Plc. or one of its subsidiaries.
Although this message has been scanned by MailMarshall for known viruses and
inappropriate content, we recommend that recipients employ appropriate measures on
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=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 10:05:24 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: PWB ASSEMBLY BURN-IN TEST
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Jim! Is the intent to use the assemblies in sellable product once th=
e
burn-in testing is complete or is this just a qualification test? I bel=
ieve
the PWB and solder joints will withstand the testing (provided the
materials are for IPC Class 3 use environments) but you will significan=
tly
reduce the overall product life under these conditions. Werner Engelmai=
er
has published some great data on how over testing can impact use life.
Those burn-in conditions are pretty rough - any rationale logic behind
them?
Dave Hillman
Rockwell Collins
[log in to unmask]
"Marsico, James" <[log in to unmask]>@ipc.org> on 10/16/2001 06:1=
1:33
AM
Please respond to "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
cc:
Subject: [TN] PWB ASSEMBLY BURN-IN TEST
Good day Technet:
We're being asked to perform a burn-in test (160 HRS @ 125=BAC and 352 =
HRS @
100=BAC) on a surface mount assembly. I'm sure that the parts can with=
stand
this environment, but what about the PWB and solder joints?
Jim Marsico
Senior Engineer
Production Engineering
EDO Electronics Systems Group
[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
631-595-5879
-----------------------------------------------------------------------=
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=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 16:17:56 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Neil Atkinson <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Lead Free Surface finishes
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
The classic book on this subject is 'Statistics for Experimenters' by Box,
Hunter and Hunter. I can recommend it.
Neil
-----Original Message-----
From: Crepeau, Phil [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 16 October 2001 15:32
Subject: Re: Lead Free Surface finishes
hi,
i'd like to recommend a great book that can get you started on a doe. it's
'design for quality' by lochner and matar. amazon has it. it clearly
explains the entire process in engineering terms, and it has lots of
complete, unambiguous, every day practical examples. no six sigma training
necessary.
phil
-----Original Message-----
From: Neil Atkinson [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 1:11 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Lead Free Surface finishes
Graham,
I agree with Bev. A DOE can be designed to reduce the permutations needed
and still get good results. You need to be talking to a good statistician
or (dare I say it) someone who has done a six sigma course.
Neil
-----Original Message-----
From: Bev Christian [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 15 October 2001 14:49
Subject: Re: Lead Free Surface finishes
Graham,
Since you are looking at SIR/EM type testing an not solder joint testing,
then things like spacing and voltage gradient, etc are more important than
part type. So to cut cost (if you have not already bought your coupons),
design a board with fewer component types, use all surface finishes and run
it as a DOE so you do not have to use every different combination of
variables.
regards,
Bev Christian
Research in Motion
-----Original Message-----
From: Graham Naisbitt [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: October 15, 2001 6:52 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Lead Free Surface finishes
Techies and (I guess - Leadies?)
We are about to carry out some reliability test work, examining the
influences of electro-chemical reactions using SIR techniques.
The manufacturing process that will be employed involves lead-free soldering
materials, water based fluxes and water based conformal coatings. The
methodology we shall employ shall be as drafted in a new IEC draft spec
6-1189.
The coupon we will use is intended to model mixed technology as closely as
possible. We include through-hole connectors, J lead SOIC's, BGA 225, SMT
Capacitors and QFP 160.
We will use an LPIM resist and were going to examine 4 different surface
finishes:
NiAu (ENIG)
ImSn - Immersion Tin
ImAg - Immersion Silver
OSP
However, and to get to the question: We can't afford all these permutations
so, we shall select only one surface finish. Can you folks advise the most
popular surface finish that is likely to be used for lead-free processing?
Please, we would REALLY like a simple answer rather than to open a huge
dialogue - 'cos we have to get the testing done by Mid November and we have
yet to have the coupons made!!
Awaiting your replies with interest.
Regards, Graham Naisbitt
[log in to unmask]
<http://www.concoat.co.uk/> www.concoat.co.uk
For instant access to Product Data Sheets register on the Tech-Shot area of
http:// www.concoat.co.uk <http://www.concoat.co.uk/>
Concoat Limited
Alasan House, Albany Park
CAMBERLEY GU16 7PH UK
Phone: +44 (0)1276 691100
Fax: +44 (0)1276 691227
Mobile: +44 (0)79 6858 2121
Attention: This message is for the named person's use only. It may contain
confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information. No
confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any mistransmission. If
you receive this message in error, please immediately delete it and all
copies of it from your system, destroy any hard copies of it securely and
notify the sender. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose,
distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the
intended recipient. Concoat Ltd and any of its subsidiaries each reserve the
right to monitor all e-mail communications through its networks.
Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender,
except where the message states otherwise and the sender is authorised to
state them to be the views of Concoat Ltd or one of its subsidiaries.
Although this message has been scanned for known viruses and inappropriate
content, we recommend that recipients employ appropriate measures on their
systems to intercept any such material.
Thank You - Concoat Ltd
############################################################################
#########
Attention:
This message is for the named person's use only. It may contain
confidential,
proprietary or legally privileged information. No confidentiality or
privilege
is waived or lost by any mistransmission. If you receive this message in
error,
please immediately delete it and all copies of it from your system, destroy
any
hard copies of it securely and notify the sender. You must not, directly or
indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this
message
if you are not the intended recipient. STADIUM GROUP PLC and any of its
subsidiaries
each reserve the right to monitor all e-mail communications through its
networks.
Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender,
except where
the message states otherwise and the sender is authorised to state them to
be the
views of Stadium Group Plc. or one of its subsidiaries.
Although this message has been scanned by MailMarshall for known viruses and
inappropriate content, we recommend that recipients employ appropriate
measures on
their systems to intercept any such material.
Thank You - Stadium Group Plc., IT Department - Tel: +44 (0)1429 266544
############################################################################
#########
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
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#####################################################################################
Attention:
This message is for the named person's use only. It may contain confidential,
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is waived or lost by any mistransmission. If you receive this message in error,
please immediately delete it and all copies of it from your system, destroy any
hard copies of it securely and notify the sender. You must not, directly or
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if you are not the intended recipient. STADIUM GROUP PLC and any of its subsidiaries
each reserve the right to monitor all e-mail communications through its networks.
Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where
the message states otherwise and the sender is authorised to state them to be the
views of Stadium Group Plc. or one of its subsidiaries.
Although this message has been scanned by MailMarshall for known viruses and
inappropriate content, we recommend that recipients employ appropriate measures on
their systems to intercept any such material.
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#####################################################################################
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=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 10:24:46 -0500
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Ashok Dhawan <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Holtite Socket
In-Reply-To: <E5A6282437FBBA418E8E3E49D90A2583BCBCCF@tdax-mail>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C1562C.C7244FC0"
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C1562C.C7244FC0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
We used one manufactured by Thomas & Bett. I guess they are merged with AMP
and subsequently with Tyco. We used air operated hand gun to install it. It
was supplied by them.
I guess there are manuf who make machines to install them e.g. Cambridge.
We used modified Universal machine- orinally made for radial pin insertion.
I will start with manuf. / supplier of parts to suggest tooling recommended.
Ashok
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Weiner Mickey
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 2:40 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Holtite Socket
Hi,
I came across a "Holtite socket" (registered mark) which is used, as
far as I understand,
to house through hole components in press fit type boards - mainly
backplane - I assume.
I will appreciate any information and user experience on the subject
including special tooling,if required , sources, etc.
Mickey
Michael Weiner
Tel (972-3) 9262937
Fax (972-3) 9261803
mailto:[log in to unmask]
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C1562C.C7244FC0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><TITLE>Holtite Socket</TITLE>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3612.1706"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D815141815-16102001><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial =
size=3D2>We=20
used one manufactured by Thomas & Bett. I guess they are merged with =
AMP and=20
subsequently with Tyco. We used air operated hand gun to install it. It =
was=20
supplied by them.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D815141815-16102001><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial =
size=3D2>I=20
guess there are manuf who make machines to install them e.g.=20
Cambridge.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D815141815-16102001><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=3D815141815-16102001><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>We used modified Universal machine- orinally made =
for radial=20
pin insertion.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D815141815-16102001><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D815141815-16102001><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial =
size=3D2>I will=20
start with manuf. / supplier of parts to suggest tooling=20
recommended.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D815141815-16102001><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D815141815-16102001><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Ashok </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> TechNet=20
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<B>On Behalf Of</B> Weiner =
Mickey<BR><B>Sent:</B>=20
Tuesday, October 16, 2001 2:40 AM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
[log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> [TN] Holtite=20
Socket<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><BR>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi,</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2> I=20
came across a "Holtite socket" (registered mark) which is =
used, as=20
far as I understand,</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> to =
house=20
through hole components in press fit type boards - mainly =
backplane -=20
I assume. </FONT><BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> I will =
appreciate=20
any information and user experience on the subject</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2> including special tooling,if required ,=20
sources, etc.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Mickey</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3D"Arial =
(Hebrew)"=20
size=3D2> </FONT> </P>
<P><I><FONT face=3DTerminal size=3D2>Michael Weiner</FONT></I> =
<BR><FONT=20
face=3DTerminal size=3D2>Tel (972-3) 9262937</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
face=3DTerminal size=3D2>Fax (972-3) 9261803</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"mailto:mickey.weiner">mailto:mickey.weiner</A></FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>@</FONT><FONT face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D2>enavis</FONT><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2>.com</FONT>=20
</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:35:21 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Werner Engelmaier <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: PWB ASSEMBLY BURN-IN TEST
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Jim,
While I would strongly question the purpose of a "burn-in" test comprising16=
0=20
HRS @ 125=BAC and 352 HRS @100=BAC, neither will damage the PWB [think of PW=
B=20
bakes] or the SJs [the SJs will coarsen in their grain-structure--which they=
=20
would do anyway in about onne year on the shelf or in service--and the IMC=20
layers will grow some, but without any real negative effects].
What is your customer thinking? Well, maybe they not thinking at all.
Werner Engelmaier
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=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 10:57:45 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Lead Free Surface finishes
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Graham! Let me propose a different angle to your request: spend the
money now during your testing to acquire an understanding on how the
different surface finishes influence/interact with the testing protocol=
before settling on "one" finish. Rockwell Collins has spent the last 2
years testing finishes and gathering industry data on the alternative
surface finishes. We have "qualified" several finishes - some work bett=
er
in specific use applications than others. However, I also believe that =
we
will eventually settle on just a couple (yep, you guessed it - immersio=
n
silver and immersion tin) as the main choices for assembly designs. One=
finish doesn't fit all as HASL did - if you limit your testing now you=
may
end up doing additional testing in the future. Good Luck.
Dave Hillman
Rockwell Collins
[log in to unmask]
Graham Naisbitt <[log in to unmask]>@ipc.org> on 10/15/2001
05:52:10 AM
Please respond to "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
cc:
Subject: [TN] Lead Free Surface finishes
Techies and (I guess - Leadies?)
We are about to carry out some reliability test work, examining the
influences of electro-chemical reactions using SIR techniques.
The manufacturing process that will be employed involves lead-free
soldering materials, water based fluxes and water based conformal
coatings. The methodology we shall employ shall be as drafted in a new=
IEC
draft spec 6-1189.
The coupon we will use is intended to model mixed technology as closel=
y as
possible. We include through-hole connectors, J lead SOIC's, BGA 225, =
SMT
Capacitors and=A0QFP 160.
We will use an LPIM resist and were going to examine 4 different surfa=
ce
finishes:
NiAu (ENIG)
ImSn - Immersion Tin
ImAg - Immersion Silver
OSP
However, and to get to the question: We can't afford all these
permutations so, we shall select only one surface finish. Can you folk=
s
advise the most popular surface finish that is likely to be used for
lead-free processing?
Please, we would REALLY like a simple answer rather than to open a hug=
e
dialogue - 'cos we have to get the testing done by Mid November and we=
have yet to have the coupons made!!
Awaiting your replies with interest.
Regards, Graham Naisbitt
[log in to unmask]
www.concoat.co.uk
For instant access to Product Data Sheets register on the Tech-Shot ar=
ea
of http://www.concoat.co.uk
Concoat Limited
Alasan House, Albany Park
CAMBERLEY GU16 7PH UK
Phone: +44 (0)1276 691100
Fax: +44 (0)1276 691227
Mobile: +44 (0)79 6858 2121
Attention: This message is for the named person's use only. It may cont=
ain
confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information. No
confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any mistransmission.=
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you receive this message in error, please immediately delete it and al=
l
copies of it from your system, destroy any hard copies of it securely =
and
notify the sender. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose=
,
distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the=
intended recipient. Concoat Ltd and any of its subsidiaries each reser=
ve
the right to monitor all e-mail communications through its networks.
Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender,=
except where the message states otherwise and the sender is authorised =
to
state them to be the views of Concoat Ltd or one of its subsidiaries.
Although this message has been scanned for known viruses and inappropri=
ate
content, we recommend that recipients employ appropriate measures on th=
eir
systems to intercept any such material.
Thank You - Concoat Ltd
=
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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:58:23 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Tom Parkinson - Quality System Manager <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Particulate matter
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As a general rule for cleanliness inspection - IPC-A-610-C says VISUAL.
For other items on the assembly, yes - magnification may be required per
the chart you referred to.
If one uses enough magnification - you can always find something that
looks wrong. We try to avoid this situation.
Also, JSTD-001-C refers to visual for cleanliness inspection of lint,
dross, and particulate matter also. It goes into more detail if ionic
(and other) testing is required and establishing a cleanliness spec for
the assembly (C-22 is the default).
There are over 15 pages of information on cleaning & testing for
cleanliness in the IPC-HDBK-001 with Amendment 1 which compares the
JSTD-001 Rev B to C. There are numerous references to other standards
in these pages if you wish to find more material.
Tom Parkinson - WinTronics, Inc.
> Mary Jane Chism wrote:
>
> I have a questions concerning the power of magnification that should
> be used to inspect a populated assembly for particulate matter. I have
> reviewed the IPC-A-610 and also the IPC-A-600 manuals for indication
> of what power of magnification used to inspect lint, dross, etc. I
> really did not find an answer, unless I am looking in the wrong place.
> It seems the naked eye would be sufficient, but our manufacturing is
> telling us to inspect a 7X. If anyone has an answer, we would
> appreciate it. Thanks.
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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 10:22:02 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Misner, Bruce" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: PWB ASSEMBLY BURN-IN TEST
Jim,
Those burn-ins are typical for Military grade microelectronic devices (one
time and temp or the other, not one followed by the other) per Mil Std 883.
Could this SMT assembly be for the military and have a number of flip chip,
COB or chip scale devices that are driving your customer in that direction?
Could they believe that this is more like a multichip module on laminate
(MCM-L) rather than an SMT assembly and hence 883 is more applicable? Your
definition and theirs may differ.
Regards,
Bruce Misner
> ----------
> From: Marsico, James[SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Reply To: TechNet E-Mail Forum.
> Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 7:11 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] PWB ASSEMBLY BURN-IN TEST
>
> Good day Technet:
> We're being asked to perform a burn-in test (160 HRS @ 125ºC and 352 HRS @
> 100ºC) on a surface mount assembly. I'm sure that the parts can withstand
> this environment, but what about the PWB and solder joints?
>
> Jim Marsico
> Senior Engineer
> Production Engineering
> EDO Electronics Systems Group
> [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> 631-595-5879
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:14:43 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Rafael Aguirre <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Mitsui's BN resin system
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Mitsui makes BN laminate for BGAs, flip-chip and TAB bonding. Here is a US
contact:
Mr. Kenji Miyachi
Mitsui Chemicals America, Inc.
Phone (408) 487-2881
Fax (408) 453-0684
[log in to unmask]
Regards
Rafael Aguirre
-----Original Message-----
From: Marion A. Graybeal [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 8:21 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Mitsui's BN resin system
Terri,
BT resin is made by Mitsubishi Gas Chemical Company, Inc. not Mitsui.
Marion Graybeal
----- Original Message -----
From: Houston, Terri <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 5:25 PM
Subject: [TN] Mitsui's BN resin system
> I'm looking for information on a board resin system that's supposed to
have
> a Tg around 300C. I was told it's the next generation of BT, made by
Mitsui
> and called BN. My web searches came up dry.
>
> If anyone has any leads on where I can find more information, I'd
appreciate
> it.
>
> Thanks,
> Terri
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3DISO-8859-1">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
5.5.2652.35">
<TITLE>RE: [TN] Mitsui's BN resin system</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Mitsui makes BN laminate for BGAs, flip-chip and TAB =
bonding. Here is a US contact: </FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Mr. Kenji Miyachi</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Mitsui Chemicals America, Inc.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Phone (408) 487-2881</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Fax (408) 453-0684</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>[log in to unmask]</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Regards</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Rafael Aguirre</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Marion A. Graybeal [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]
.NET</A>]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 8:21 AM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: [log in to unmask]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: Re: [TN] Mitsui's BN resin system</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Terri,</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>BT resin is made by Mitsubishi Gas Chemical Company, =
Inc. not Mitsui.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Marion Graybeal</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>----- Original Message -----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Houston, Terri =
<[log in to unmask]></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: <[log in to unmask]></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 5:25 PM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: [TN] Mitsui's BN resin system</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>> I'm looking for information on a board resin =
system that's supposed to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>have</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> a Tg around 300C. I was told it's the =
next generation of BT, made by</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Mitsui</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> and called BN. My web searches came up =
dry.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> If anyone has any leads on where I can find =
more information, I'd</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>appreciate</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> it.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Thanks,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Terri</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> =
------------------------------------------------------------------------=
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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:26:24 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Nick Ban <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: DC Chapter Kickoff in NY - Oct 23
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DESIGNERS COUNCIL CHAPTER KICKOFF ANNOUNCEMENT
Location: Long Island, New York
WHO: Anyone interested in Printed Circuit Board=20
Design, Manufacture and Assembly.=20
WHAT: Is the Long Island IPC Designers Council?=20
Educational opportunities exist?=20
Is Designer Certification?=20
Is in it for me=20
WHERE: Miteq Corp=20
WHEN: October 23, 2001 - 6:00 to 8:30pm=20
Help provide direction for chapter activities.=20
Chart the future of Design on Long Island.=20
Contact Ed Tordahl at (631) 758-8100=20
[log in to unmask]
or=20
Ron Ryan at (631)344-6068=20
[log in to unmask]
Directions=20
From Eastern Long Island:=20
Long Island Expy,I-495 Westbound to Exit 55=20
Exit via ramp to Expressway Dr N and go West for 800 feet=20
Turn right on Vanderbilt Motor Pky,Motor Pky,CR-67 and go West for 0.7 =
miles=20
Turn right on Adams Ave and go North for 0.7 miles=20
Turn left on Oser Ave and go West for 0.2 miles to 330 Oser Ave=20
From Western Long Island:=20
Long Island Expy,I-495 Eastbound to Exit 53=20
Exit via ramp to Expressway Dr S and go East (stay right) for 1 mile=20
Turn left on Washington Ave and go North for 600 feet=20
Turn left on Vanderbilt Motor Pky,Motor Pky,CR-67 and go West for 0.4 =
miles=20
Turn right on Adams Ave and go North for 0.7 miles=20
Turn left on Oser Ave and go West for 0.2 miles to 330 Oser Ave=20
=20
If you have questions my contact information is listed below:
=20
=20
Nick Ban
Designers Council Coordinator
IPC
2215 Sanders Rd.
Northbrook, IL 60062
Phone: 847.790.5322
Fax: 847.504.2322
E-mail: [log in to unmask]
Web: dc.ipc.org
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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 17:37:14 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Graham Naisbitt <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Lead Free Surface finishes
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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For Dave Hillman
Dave thanks for that input - it is very useful.
As I may have explained, we are doing this work as part of a paper we are to
present at a conference in Singapore. Might we be able to see a copy of your
work and to reference it in ours?
Regards, Graham Naisbitt
[log in to unmask]
www.concoat.co.uk <http://www.concoat.co.uk>
For instant access to Product Data Sheets register on the Tech-Shot area of
http:// www.concoat.co.uk <http://www.concoat.co.uk>
Concoat Limited
Alasan House, Albany Park
CAMBERLEY GU16 7PH UK
Phone: +44 (0)1276 691100
Fax: +44 (0)1276 691227
Mobile: +44 (0)79 6858 2121
Attention: This message is for the named person's use only. It may contain
confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information. No
confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any mistransmission. If
you receive this message in error, please immediately delete it and all
copies of it from your system, destroy any hard copies of it securely and
notify the sender. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose,
distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the
intended recipient. Concoat Ltd and any of its subsidiaries each reserve the
right to monitor all e-mail communications through its networks.
Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender,
except where the message states otherwise and the sender is authorised to
state them to be the views of Concoat Ltd or one of its subsidiaries.
Although this message has been scanned for known viruses and inappropriate
content, we recommend that recipients employ appropriate measures on their
systems to intercept any such material.
Thank You - Concoat Ltd
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of
[log in to unmask]
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 04:58
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Lead Free Surface finishes
Hi Graham! Let me propose a different angle to your request: spend the
money now during your testing to acquire an understanding on how the
different surface finishes influence/interact with the testing protocol
before settling on "one" finish. Rockwell Collins has spent the last 2
years testing finishes and gathering industry data on the alternative
surface finishes. We have "qualified" several finishes - some work better
in specific use applications than others. However, I also believe that we
will eventually settle on just a couple (yep, you guessed it - immersion
silver and immersion tin) as the main choices for assembly designs. One
finish doesn't fit all as HASL did - if you limit your testing now you may
end up doing additional testing in the future. Good Luck.
Dave Hillman
Rockwell Collins
[log in to unmask]
Graham Naisbitt <[log in to unmask]>@ipc.org> on 10/15/2001
05:52:10 AM
Please respond to "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
cc:
Subject: [TN] Lead Free Surface finishes
Techies and (I guess - Leadies?)
We are about to carry out some reliability test work, examining the
influences of electro-chemical reactions using SIR techniques.
The manufacturing process that will be employed involves lead-free
soldering materials, water based fluxes and water based conformal
coatings. The methodology we shall employ shall be as drafted in a new IEC
draft spec 6-1189.
The coupon we will use is intended to model mixed technology as closely as
possible. We include through-hole connectors, J lead SOIC's, BGA 225, SMT
Capacitors and QFP 160.
We will use an LPIM resist and were going to examine 4 different surface
finishes:
NiAu (ENIG)
ImSn - Immersion Tin
ImAg - Immersion Silver
OSP
However, and to get to the question: We can't afford all these
permutations so, we shall select only one surface finish. Can you folks
advise the most popular surface finish that is likely to be used for
lead-free processing?
Please, we would REALLY like a simple answer rather than to open a huge
dialogue - 'cos we have to get the testing done by Mid November and we
have yet to have the coupons made!!
Awaiting your replies with interest.
Regards, Graham Naisbitt
[log in to unmask]
www.concoat.co.uk
For instant access to Product Data Sheets register on the Tech-Shot area
of http://www.concoat.co.uk
Concoat Limited
Alasan House, Albany Park
CAMBERLEY GU16 7PH UK
Phone: +44 (0)1276 691100
Fax: +44 (0)1276 691227
Mobile: +44 (0)79 6858 2121
Attention: This message is for the named person's use only. It may contain
confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information. No
confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any mistransmission. If
you receive this message in error, please immediately delete it and all
copies of it from your system, destroy any hard copies of it securely and
notify the sender. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose,
distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the
intended recipient. Concoat Ltd and any of its subsidiaries each reserve
the right to monitor all e-mail communications through its networks.
Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender,
except where the message states otherwise and the sender is authorised to
state them to be the views of Concoat Ltd or one of its subsidiaries.
Although this message has been scanned for known viruses and inappropriate
content, we recommend that recipients employ appropriate measures on their
systems to intercept any such material.
Thank You - Concoat Ltd
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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 09:37:55 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Timothy Reeves <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Mitsui's BN resin system
X-To: "Stephen R. Gregory" <[log in to unmask]>
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I think those are polyimides. The P95 laminate and P25 prepreg were Allied
Signal's polyimides with Tg of 265C. Since Isola bought Allied Signal
Laminates, they've probably carried them over.
Tim Reeves
-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen R. Gregory [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 4:40 PM
Subject: Re: Mitsui's BN resin system
Hi Terri,
I looked too, can't find anything about Mitsui, but did run across a link
about some laminate systems from Allied Signal called their P97 and P27
systems...they have Tg's up around 260 C. (TMA)...hoo-doggies! That still be
pretty toasty....Go to:
http://www.insulectro.com/pdf/p97+p27.pdf
I'll still keep lookin'...
-Steve Gregory-
I'm looking for information on a board resin system that's supposed to have
a Tg around 300C. I was told it's the next generation of BT, made by Mitsui
and called BN. My web searches came up dry.
If anyone has any leads on where I can find more information, I'd appreciate
it.
Thanks,
Terri
------_=_NextPart_001_01C15660.E84DB360
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=220063016-16102001><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#800080>I
think those are polyimides. The P95 laminate and P25 prepreg were Allied
Signal's polyimides with Tg of 265C. Since Isola bought Allied Signal Laminates,
they've probably carried them over.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=220063016-16102001><FONT face="Times New Roman"
color=#800080></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=220063016-16102001><FONT face="Times New Roman"
color=#800080>Tim Reeves</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Stephen R. Gregory
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, October 15, 2001 4:40
PM<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Mitsui's BN resin system<BR><BR></DIV></FONT><FONT
face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=2>Hi Terri, <BR><BR>I looked too, can't find
anything about Mitsui, but did run across a link about some laminate systems
from Allied Signal called their P97 and P27 systems...they have Tg's up around
260 C. (TMA)...hoo-doggies! That still be pretty toasty....Go to:
<BR><BR>http://www.insulectro.com/pdf/p97+p27.pdf <BR><BR>I'll still keep
lookin'... <BR><BR>-Steve Gregory- <BR><BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
TYPE="CITE">I'm looking for information on a board resin system that's
supposed to have <BR>a Tg around 300C. I was told it's the next
generation of BT, made by Mitsui <BR>and called BN. My web searches came up
dry. <BR><BR>If anyone has any leads on where I can find more information,
I'd appreciate <BR>it. <BR><BR>Thanks, <BR>Terri <BR></FONT><FONT lang=0
face=Arial color=#000000 size=3
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></FONT><FONT lang=0 face=Arial
color=#000000 size=2
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML>
------_=_NextPart_001_01C15660.E84DB360--
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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:07:11 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Genny Gibbard <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: PCB layers swapped
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Good morning,
My morning has not been so good. I have a build of PCB's (over 300 boards)
where two inner layers have been swapped. The board fabricator constructed
the board in the wrong order. These boards are RF in nature and have
frequencies approaching 2GHz on them. In many places we put a signal trace
on the inner layer furthest from the component side and then a wide grounded
trace over it on the closer inner layer as shielding. So not only is there
no longer shielding over many traces, these signals are also about .03"
closer to the component circuitry than they used to be. Can you contemplate
the nightmare of spurious issues that have been created? We did not notice
the problem until they were fully populated and almost thru our testing
process and started failing one of the tests miserably.
Needless to say, we will be revising our inspection techniques to try to
catch occurrences like this much sooner.
I was wondering if anyone knows of a way that layer order could be
electrically tested for on a bare board, that we could require our
fabricator to complete?
Genny Gibbard (mailto:[log in to unmask])
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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 12:53:10 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Marsico, James" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: PWB ASSEMBLY BURN-IN TEST
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well, yes, this is a MIL program, and you are correct, either one
temperature or the other, not both. The top assembly design =
incorporates a
housing with microelectronics in a hermetically sealed compartment AND =
the
SMT assembly in a non-hermetic compartment. The hermetic side is, in =
fact,
a hybrid which must meet the 883 screening, the SMT assembly just goes =
along
for the ride. The SMT assembly needs to remain installed so the unit =
can be
tested during burn-in. I guess Werner answered my question regarding =
the
effects to the PWB assembly if exposed to these conditions. BTW, the =
board
will be fabricated with two .010" planes, either CIC or CMC. I don't =
think
that this would be an issue either.
Jim Marsico
Senior Engineer
Production Engineering
EDO Electronics Systems Group
[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>=20
631-595-5879
-----Original Message-----
From: Misner, Bruce [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 12:22 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] PWB ASSEMBLY BURN-IN TEST
Jim,
Those burn-ins are typical for Military grade microelectronic
devices (one
time and temp or the other, not one followed by the other) per Mil
Std 883.
Could this SMT assembly be for the military and have a number of
flip chip,
COB or chip scale devices that are driving your customer in that
direction?
Could they believe that this is more like a multichip module on
laminate
(MCM-L) rather than an SMT assembly and hence 883 is more
applicable? Your
definition and theirs may differ.
Regards,
Bruce Misner
> ----------
> From: Marsico, James[SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Reply To: TechNet E-Mail Forum.
> Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 7:11 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] PWB ASSEMBLY BURN-IN TEST
>
> Good day Technet:
> We're being asked to perform a burn-in test (160 HRS @ 125=BAC and
352 HRS @
> 100=BAC) on a surface mount assembly. I'm sure that the parts can
withstand
> this environment, but what about the PWB and solder joints?
>
> Jim Marsico
> Senior Engineer
> Production Engineering
> EDO Electronics Systems Group
> [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> 631-595-5879
>
>
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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 12:48:32 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Marsico, James" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Vapor Phase Soldering material
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Back in the days of vapor phase soldering, I seem to recall that
hydrofluoric acid was a bi-product of the fluorinert mixed with water, or
was it the Freon mixed with the fluorinert? Could anyone elaborate?
Jim Marsico
Senior Engineer
Production Engineering
EDO Electronics Systems Group
[log in to unmask]m <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
631-595-5879
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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 13:29:25 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Hinners Hans M Civ WRALC/LUGE <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: PCB layers swapped
X-cc: [log in to unmask]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hey Genny,
Sorry to hear about your bad boards. Ick!
A continuity test can catch that mistake (and bad plating). It can be done
with either a bed-of-nails or a flying probe tester. Bed of nails requires
a test fixture to be made and the flying probe has low throughput. Not my
primary area of expertise but others might be able to share their best
practices with ya.
You could also check them with an X-ray, especially if the boards were still
in panel (gotta love those registration areas - ok boxes, layer count,
etc.). Just look for missing or out of place pads - most times you don't
even need the artwork.
I feel your pain!
Hans
Integrity First - Service Before Self - Excellence in All We Do
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hans M. Hinners
Electronics Engineer
Warner Robins - Air Logistics Center (WR-ALC/LUGE)
Special Operations Forces System Program Office (SOF - SPO)
Gunship Team
226 Cochran Street
Robins AFB GA 31098-1622
mailto:[log in to unmask]
Com: (478) 926 - 5224
Fax: (478) 926 - 4911
DSN Prefix: 468
-----Original Message-----
From: Genny Gibbard [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 1:07 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] PCB layers swapped
Good morning,
My morning has not been so good. I have a build of PCB's (over 300 boards)
where two inner layers have been swapped. The board fabricator constructed
the board in the wrong order. These boards are RF in nature and have
frequencies approaching 2GHz on them. In many places we put a signal trace
on the inner layer furthest from the component side and then a wide grounded
trace over it on the closer inner layer as shielding. So not only is there
no longer shielding over many traces, these signals are also about .03"
closer to the component circuitry than they used to be. Can you contemplate
the nightmare of spurious issues that have been created? We did not notice
the problem until they were fully populated and almost thru our testing
process and started failing one of the tests miserably.
Needless to say, we will be revising our inspection techniques to try to
catch occurrences like this much sooner.
I was wondering if anyone knows of a way that layer order could be
electrically tested for on a bare board, that we could require our
fabricator to complete?
Genny Gibbard (mailto:[log in to unmask])
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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 13:44:21 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Alcorn, Brent" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: PCB layers swapped
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi,
Although you most likely are not using FR4; for some materials we number
each layer and provide a "window" in the solder mask. This aids in
detection of layer stack problems at the visual inspection stage.
Cross-sectional view:
SolderMask~=========WWWWWWW===========~
Layer 1------LAYER 1
Layer 2--------------2
Layer 3----------------3
Layer 4------------------4
SolderMask~========WWWWWW=============~
WWWWW= "Window" or soldmask void.
--- = place holder to help format text:)
For electrical testing perhaps a test-coupon could be used to enable
detection via impedance testing.
Regards,
Brent
-----Original Message-----
From: Genny Gibbard [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 1:07 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] PCB layers swapped
Good morning,
My morning has not been so good. I have a build of PCB's (over 300 boards)
where two inner layers have been swapped. The board fabricator constructed
the board in the wrong order. These boards are RF in nature and have
frequencies approaching 2GHz on them. In many places we put a signal trace
on the inner layer furthest from the component side and then a wide grounded
trace over it on the closer inner layer as shielding. So not only is there
no longer shielding over many traces, these signals are also about .03"
closer to the component circuitry than they used to be. Can you contemplate
the nightmare of spurious issues that have been created? We did not notice
the problem until they were fully populated and almost thru our testing
process and started failing one of the tests miserably.
Needless to say, we will be revising our inspection techniques to try to
catch occurrences like this much sooner.
I was wondering if anyone knows of a way that layer order could be
electrically tested for on a bare board, that we could require our
fabricator to complete?
Genny Gibbard (mailto:[log in to unmask])
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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 13:46:47 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Kaye Knotts <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: PCB layers swapped
In-Reply-To: <A71205756C62D411B06900B0D03DC136B1BCF6@CONNECTOR>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
We have had the problem of internal layers being swapped
more than we care to think about, mostly because we number
our layers backwards from industry standard (don't ask why).
One of the checks we use is to put a short nub of a trace
at the edge of the board staggered on each layer so that,
after routing the board edge, the copper is exposed on
the board edge and the layer stack-up can be checked
and also the dielectric thickness between layers can be visually
checked. We also put the layer number (like 1,2,3,...) on each
layer in a place on the board where you could hold the board to the
light and see the stack-up through the board (relieved of soldermask).
We do not have a lot of layers, though.
Sorry this happened to you.
KK
At 11:07 AM 10/16/2001 -0600, you wrote:
>Good morning,
>My morning has not been so good. I have a build of PCB's (over 300 boards)
>where two inner layers have been swapped. The board fabricator constructed
>the board in the wrong order. These boards are RF in nature and have
>frequencies approaching 2GHz on them. In many places we put a signal trace
>on the inner layer furthest from the component side and then a wide grounded
>trace over it on the closer inner layer as shielding. So not only is there
>no longer shielding over many traces, these signals are also about .03"
>closer to the component circuitry than they used to be. Can you contemplate
>the nightmare of spurious issues that have been created? We did not notice
>the problem until they were fully populated and almost thru our testing
>process and started failing one of the tests miserably.
>Needless to say, we will be revising our inspection techniques to try to
>catch occurrences like this much sooner.
>
>I was wondering if anyone knows of a way that layer order could be
>electrically tested for on a bare board, that we could require our
>fabricator to complete?
>
>Genny Gibbard (mailto:[log in to unmask])
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>Please visit IPC web site (http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm) for additional
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>ext.5315
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>------
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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 13:52:08 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Lee Whiteman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Vapor Phase Soldering material
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Jim,
If memory serves me correct, Freon and fluorinert are very close,
chemically. I remember it because some sites I supported had to get rid of
the stuff during the ODC elimination days, and since Freon and fluorinert
are hazardous chemistries, my friends in EH&S were not happy with me. Both
chemistries have high ODC ratings.
If the fluorinert became to saturated with water, it would become acidic
(hydrofluoric acid). That's why many vapor phase units had water separators
within the system. A way to tell this (rule of thumb) is when the vapor
became cloudy. This also happens with Freon in a vapor degreaser.
You can call me off-line for additional information.
Hope this helps.
Good Luck.
Lee Whiteman
Senior Manufacturing Engineer
E-Mail: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Ph: (610) 362-1200 x208
Fax: (610) 362-1290
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Marsico, James
> Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 12:49 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] Vapor Phase Soldering material
>
>
> Back in the days of vapor phase soldering, I seem to recall that
> hydrofluoric acid was a bi-product of the fluorinert mixed with water, or
> was it the Freon mixed with the fluorinert? Could anyone elaborate?
>
> Jim Marsico
> Senior Engineer
> Production Engineering
> EDO Electronics Systems Group
> [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> 631-595-5879
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------
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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 13:10:53 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Gary McCauley <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Vapor Phase Soldering material
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Freons are CFC's or chlorofluorocarbons; the carbons
have a fluorine or a chlorine attached to them.
Fluorinerts are perflurocarbons, i.e. all available
carbons sites contain a fluorine.
As organics they are relatively non corrosive, but
when mixed with water, some of the halides (chlorine,
fluorine) separate into the aqueous phase and form
hydrochloric and/or hydrofluoric acid. Especially if
subjected to external energy sources such as heat
or plasma. Carbon tetrafluoride is used in plasma desmear
equipment in board fabrication and the discharge should
be run through a packed bed fume scrubber to remove the
hydrofluoric acid.
Hydrofluoric is a very nasty chemical. One usually does not
detect it until it penetrates the skin far enough to contact
nerve endings.
gary mccauley
-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Whiteman [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 12:52 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Vapor Phase Soldering material
Jim,
If memory serves me correct, Freon and fluorinert are very close,
chemically. I remember it because some sites I supported had to get rid of
the stuff during the ODC elimination days, and since Freon and fluorinert
are hazardous chemistries, my friends in EH&S were not happy with me. Both
chemistries have high ODC ratings.
If the fluorinert became to saturated with water, it would become acidic
(hydrofluoric acid). That's why many vapor phase units had water separators
within the system. A way to tell this (rule of thumb) is when the vapor
became cloudy. This also happens with Freon in a vapor degreaser.
You can call me off-line for additional information.
Hope this helps.
Good Luck.
Lee Whiteman
Senior Manufacturing Engineer
E-Mail: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Ph: (610) 362-1200 x208
Fax: (610) 362-1290
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Marsico, James
> Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 12:49 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] Vapor Phase Soldering material
>
>
> Back in the days of vapor phase soldering, I seem to recall that
> hydrofluoric acid was a bi-product of the fluorinert mixed with water, or
> was it the Freon mixed with the fluorinert? Could anyone elaborate?
>
> Jim Marsico
> Senior Engineer
> Production Engineering
> EDO Electronics Systems Group
> [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> 631-595-5879
>
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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:53:51 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Crepeau, Phil" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Lead Free Surface finishes
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
hi,
that book is a classic, but for someone just beginning, lochner and matar can't be beat. one of these authors is (or maybe was by now) an emeritus professor of mechanical engineering at marquette.
phil
-----Original Message-----
From: Neil Atkinson [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 8:18 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Lead Free Surface finishes
The classic book on this subject is 'Statistics for Experimenters' by Box,
Hunter and Hunter. I can recommend it.
Neil
-----Original Message-----
From: Crepeau, Phil [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 16 October 2001 15:32
Subject: Re: Lead Free Surface finishes
hi,
i'd like to recommend a great book that can get you started on a doe. it's
'design for quality' by lochner and matar. amazon has it. it clearly
explains the entire process in engineering terms, and it has lots of
complete, unambiguous, every day practical examples. no six sigma training
necessary.
phil
-----Original Message-----
From: Neil Atkinson [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 1:11 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Lead Free Surface finishes
Graham,
I agree with Bev. A DOE can be designed to reduce the permutations needed
and still get good results. You need to be talking to a good statistician
or (dare I say it) someone who has done a six sigma course.
Neil
-----Original Message-----
From: Bev Christian [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 15 October 2001 14:49
Subject: Re: Lead Free Surface finishes
Graham,
Since you are looking at SIR/EM type testing an not solder joint testing,
then things like spacing and voltage gradient, etc are more important than
part type. So to cut cost (if you have not already bought your coupons),
design a board with fewer component types, use all surface finishes and run
it as a DOE so you do not have to use every different combination of
variables.
regards,
Bev Christian
Research in Motion
-----Original Message-----
From: Graham Naisbitt [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: October 15, 2001 6:52 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Lead Free Surface finishes
Techies and (I guess - Leadies?)
We are about to carry out some reliability test work, examining the
influences of electro-chemical reactions using SIR techniques.
The manufacturing process that will be employed involves lead-free soldering
materials, water based fluxes and water based conformal coatings. The
methodology we shall employ shall be as drafted in a new IEC draft spec
6-1189.
The coupon we will use is intended to model mixed technology as closely as
possible. We include through-hole connectors, J lead SOIC's, BGA 225, SMT
Capacitors and QFP 160.
We will use an LPIM resist and were going to examine 4 different surface
finishes:
NiAu (ENIG)
ImSn - Immersion Tin
ImAg - Immersion Silver
OSP
However, and to get to the question: We can't afford all these permutations
so, we shall select only one surface finish. Can you folks advise the most
popular surface finish that is likely to be used for lead-free processing?
Please, we would REALLY like a simple answer rather than to open a huge
dialogue - 'cos we have to get the testing done by Mid November and we have
yet to have the coupons made!!
Awaiting your replies with interest.
Regards, Graham Naisbitt
[log in to unmask]
<http://www.concoat.co.uk/> www.concoat.co.uk
For instant access to Product Data Sheets register on the Tech-Shot area of
http:// www.concoat.co.uk <http://www.concoat.co.uk/>
Concoat Limited
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Attention:
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hard copies of it securely and notify the sender. You must not, directly or
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if you are not the intended recipient. STADIUM GROUP PLC and any of its subsidiaries
each reserve the right to monitor all e-mail communications through its networks.
Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where
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Although this message has been scanned by MailMarshall for known viruses and
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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 12:27:04 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Edwards, Ted A (AZ75)" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: PCB layers swapped
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
I once saw a company that solved this problem buy creating a stairstep of
the layers copper along the edge of the panel where each layer had a
specific place it was to be in the step pattern. As a part of their source
inspection they just sanded across the edge and if the stair step was
correct you could tell the layers were in the correct plane. Also if you
have quality conformance test coupons you can put it in the edge of the
coupon. One caution, don't do this on the actual board itself unless you
can tolerate copper to the edge of your board and also don't connect it
electrically to anything else.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Genny Gibbard [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 10:07 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] PCB layers swapped
>
> Good morning,
> My morning has not been so good. I have a build of PCB's (over 300
> boards)
> where two inner layers have been swapped. The board fabricator
> constructed
> the board in the wrong order. These boards are RF in nature and have
> frequencies approaching 2GHz on them. In many places we put a signal
> trace
> on the inner layer furthest from the component side and then a wide
> grounded
> trace over it on the closer inner layer as shielding. So not only is
> there
> no longer shielding over many traces, these signals are also about .03"
> closer to the component circuitry than they used to be. Can you
> contemplate
> the nightmare of spurious issues that have been created? We did not
> notice
> the problem until they were fully populated and almost thru our testing
> process and started failing one of the tests miserably.
> Needless to say, we will be revising our inspection techniques to try to
> catch occurrences like this much sooner.
>
> I was wondering if anyone knows of a way that layer order could be
> electrically tested for on a bare board, that we could require our
> fabricator to complete?
>
> Genny Gibbard (mailto:[log in to unmask])
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
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=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 13:22:44 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Rick Thompson <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Zicon Conformal Coat sprayer?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I'm looking for any information, web site, phone, etc. for a company called
Zicon that made a conformal coat spray booth. The only information I have
is a Zicon model 10000. Can anybody tell me if this company is still around
or any place I could information on this system?
Thanks in advance,
Rick Thompson
Ventura Electronics Assembly
2655 Park Center Dr.
Simi Valley, CA 93065
+1 (805) 584-9858 x-304 voice
+1 (805) 584-1529 fax
[log in to unmask]
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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 16:42:34 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Speers, Samuel @ CSE" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: PCB layers swapped
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Genny,
Don't know about electrical test, but practice at our site since Genesis 1:1
has been to design in a "window" where the pattern revision of each layer is
visible. This enables you to see that the correct pattern rev. was used and
that they are laid up in the correct order.
Sam Speers
-----Original Message-----
From: Genny Gibbard [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 1:07 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] PCB layers swapped
Good morning,
My morning has not been so good. I have a build of PCB's (over 300 boards)
where two inner layers have been swapped. The board fabricator constructed
the board in the wrong order. These boards are RF in nature and have
frequencies approaching 2GHz on them. In many places we put a signal trace
on the inner layer furthest from the component side and then a wide grounded
trace over it on the closer inner layer as shielding. So not only is there
no longer shielding over many traces, these signals are also about .03"
closer to the component circuitry than they used to be. Can you contemplate
the nightmare of spurious issues that have been created? We did not notice
the problem until they were fully populated and almost thru our testing
process and started failing one of the tests miserably.
Needless to say, we will be revising our inspection techniques to try to
catch occurrences like this much sooner.
I was wondering if anyone knows of a way that layer order could be
electrically tested for on a bare board, that we could require our
fabricator to complete?
Genny Gibbard (mailto:[log in to unmask])
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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 11:00:53 +1000
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: DUTTON Phil <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: PCB layers swapped
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I've had a similar thing happen in the past.
I also use a 'layer build window' to allow a quick optical inspection of the
bare boards.
Just a clear area on the edge of the board with a number on each layer from
1 to n (this can include a revision code as well). You can hold the board up
to the light and see the build from left to right through the board. It is
possible to see the difference depths of the characters. I also include
'drawing number, issue, and layer' information on each layer, just outside
of the board perimeter in fairly large (0.100") text to make things as clear
as possible. (As well as the layer build diagram on my master drawing.)
Another possibility, in addition, would be to include a small copper feature
on each layer that gets exposed by the edge routing to indicate correct
layup sequence.
regards,
Phil Dutton C.I.D.
-----Original Message-----
From: Speers, Samuel @ CSE [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, 17 October 2001 6:13
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] PCB layers swapped
Genny,
Don't know about electrical test, but practice at our site since Genesis 1:1
has been to design in a "window" where the pattern revision of each layer is
visible. This enables you to see that the correct pattern rev. was used and
that they are laid up in the correct order.
Sam Speers
-----Original Message-----
From: Genny Gibbard [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 1:07 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] PCB layers swapped
Good morning,
My morning has not been so good. I have a build of PCB's (over 300 boards)
where two inner layers have been swapped. The board fabricator constructed
the board in the wrong order. These boards are RF in nature and have
frequencies approaching 2GHz on them. In many places we put a signal trace
on the inner layer furthest from the component side and then a wide grounded
trace over it on the closer inner layer as shielding. So not only is there
no longer shielding over many traces, these signals are also about .03"
closer to the component circuitry than they used to be. Can you contemplate
the nightmare of spurious issues that have been created? We did not notice
the problem until they were fully populated and almost thru our testing
process and started failing one of the tests miserably.
Needless to say, we will be revising our inspection techniques to try to
catch occurrences like this much sooner.
I was wondering if anyone knows of a way that layer order could be
electrically tested for on a bare board, that we could require our
fabricator to complete?
Genny Gibbard (mailto:[log in to unmask])
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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 21:09:39 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Stephen R. Gregory" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Vapor Phase Soldering material
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="part1_d2.dcb66b6.28fe3453_boundary"
--part1_d2.dcb66b6.28fe3453_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hi Gary!
YOWZA! I worked with a vapor phase unit back in 1989 that used fluorinert
from 3M, and a secondary fluid (freon), and I had no idea about this...
But how about perfluoropolyether (PFPE) heat transfer fluids? Galden Fluids
produce these (http://www.ausimont.com/docs/gald_vapor.html) Are there the
same kind of concerns? I'm not a chemist, so I apologize if I'm asking a dumb
question...but inquiring minds would like to know.
Thanks!
-Steve Gregory-
> Freons are CFC's or chlorofluorocarbons; the carbons
> have a fluorine or a chlorine attached to them.
>
> Fluorinerts are perflurocarbons, i.e. all available
> carbons sites contain a fluorine.
>
> As organics they are relatively non corrosive, but
> when mixed with water, some of the halides (chlorine,
> fluorine) separate into the aqueous phase and form
> hydrochloric and/or hydrofluoric acid. Especially if
> subjected to external energy sources such as heat
> or plasma. Carbon tetrafluoride is used in plasma desmear
> equipment in board fabrication and the discharge should
> be run through a packed bed fume scrubber to remove the
> hydrofluoric acid.
>
> Hydrofluoric is a very nasty chemical. One usually does not
> detect it until it penetrates the skin far enough to contact
> nerve endings.
>
>
> gary mccauley
>
--part1_d2.dcb66b6.28fe3453_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>Hi Gary!
<BR>
<BR>YOWZA! I worked with a vapor phase unit back in 1989 that used fluorinert from 3M, and a secondary fluid (freon), and I had no idea about this...
<BR>
<BR>But how about perfluoropolyether (PFPE) heat transfer fluids? Galden Fluids produce these (http://www.ausimont.com/docs/gald_vapor.html) Are there the same kind of concerns? I'm not a chemist, so I apologize if I'm asking a dumb question...but inquiring minds would like to know.
<BR>
<BR>Thanks!
<BR>
<BR>-Steve Gregory-
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Freons are CFC's or chlorofluorocarbons; the carbons
<BR>have a fluorine or a chlorine attached to them.
<BR>
<BR>Fluorinerts are perflurocarbons, i.e. all available
<BR>carbons sites contain a fluorine.
<BR>
<BR>As organics they are relatively non corrosive, but
<BR>when mixed with water, some of the halides (chlorine,
<BR>fluorine) separate into the aqueous phase and form
<BR>hydrochloric and/or hydrofluoric acid. Especially if
<BR>subjected to external energy sources such as heat
<BR>or plasma. Carbon tetrafluoride is used in plasma desmear
<BR>equipment in board fabrication and the discharge should
<BR>be run through a packed bed fume scrubber to remove the
<BR>hydrofluoric acid.
<BR>
<BR>Hydrofluoric is a very nasty chemical. One usually does not
<BR>detect it until it penetrates the skin far enough to contact
<BR>nerve endings.
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>gary mccauley
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>
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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 18:32:35 -0700
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: David Ricketts <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: PCB layers swapped
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Believe it or not, I watched a guy lay out a 2 layer board, a quickie
surface mount design, he didn't use any text or number markings or
silkscreen, and was surprised when the fab house put the bottom layer on
top, and the top layer on bottom (It would have worked if it were
through-hole). If your layers are identified, then it's the board house's
fault, and they are at the very least liable for replacing the boards If
they are not labeled, it's yours, and unfortunately an expensive lesson.
David Ricketts
Pertek Engineering
Voice: 949-475-4485
Fax: 949-475-4493
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Genny Gibbard [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 10:07 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] PCB layers swapped
>
> Good morning,
> My morning has not been so good. I have a build of PCB's (over 300
> boards)
> where two inner layers have been swapped. The board fabricator
> constructed
> the board in the wrong order. These boards are RF in nature and have
> frequencies approaching 2GHz on them. In many places we put a signal
> trace
> on the inner layer furthest from the component side and then a wide
> grounded
> trace over it on the closer inner layer as shielding. So not only is
> there
> no longer shielding over many traces, these signals are also about .03"
> closer to the component circuitry than they used to be. Can you
> contemplate
> the nightmare of spurious issues that have been created? We did not
> notice
> the problem until they were fully populated and almost thru our testing
> process and started failing one of the tests miserably.
> Needless to say, we will be revising our inspection techniques to try to
> catch occurrences like this much sooner.
>
> I was wondering if anyone knows of a way that layer order could be
> electrically tested for on a bare board, that we could require our
> fabricator to complete?
>
> Genny Gibbard (mailto:[log in to unmask])
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 21:21:45 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Stephen R. Gregory" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: PCB layers swapped
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="part1_5a.3d62a7.28fe3729_boundary"
--part1_5a.3d62a7.28fe3729_boundary
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hi all!
Just reading all the messages in this thread, it sounds like this is not a
too uncommon experience...I haven't experienced >yet< (as he's knocking on
wood, and crossing fingers).
What I've read so far, is what end users of the fabs can do, so that they can
spot the problem at incoming inspection before populating them...
I'm just throwing the questions out; "How does this happen at the board
house? Gerber files are always labeled with which layer it is...what can fab
shops do to prevent this?"
Once it hits incoming, it's already too late...
-Steve Gregory-
> I've had a similar thing happen in the past.
> I also use a 'layer build window' to allow a quick optical inspection of the
> bare boards.
> Just a clear area on the edge of the board with a number on each layer from
> 1 to n (this can include a revision code as well). You can hold the board up
> to the light and see the build from left to right through the board. It is
> possible to see the difference depths of the characters. I also include
> 'drawing number, issue, and layer' information on each layer, just outside
> of the board perimeter in fairly large (0.100") text to make things as clear
> as possible. (As well as the layer build diagram on my master drawing.)
> Another possibility, in addition, would be to include a small copper feature
> on each layer that gets exposed by the edge routing to indicate correct
> layup sequence.
>
> regards,
>
> Phil Dutton C.I.D.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Speers, Samuel @ CSE [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Wednesday, 17 October 2001 6:13
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] PCB layers swapped
>
>
> Genny,
> Don't know about electrical test, but practice at our site since Genesis 1:1
> has been to design in a "window" where the pattern revision of each layer is
> visible. This enables you to see that the correct pattern rev. was used and
> that they are laid up in the correct order.
>
> Sam Speers
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Genny Gibbard [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 1:07 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] PCB layers swapped
>
>
> Good morning,
> My morning has not been so good. I have a build of PCB's (over 300 boards)
> where two inner layers have been swapped. The board fabricator constructed
> the board in the wrong order. These boards are RF in nature and have
> frequencies approaching 2GHz on them. In many places we put a signal trace
> on the inner layer furthest from the component side and then a wide grounded
> trace over it on the closer inner layer as shielding. So not only is there
> no longer shielding over many traces, these signals are also about .03"
> closer to the component circuitry than they used to be. Can you contemplate
> the nightmare of spurious issues that have been created? We did not notice
> the problem until they were fully populated and almost thru our testing
> process and started failing one of the tests miserably.
> Needless to say, we will be revising our inspection techniques to try to
> catch occurrences like this much sooner.
>
> I was wondering if anyone knows of a way that layer order could be
> electrically tested for on a bare board, that we could require our
> fabricator to complete?
>
> Genny Gibbard (mailto:[log in to unmask])
>
--part1_5a.3d62a7.28fe3729_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>Hi all!
<BR>
<BR>Just reading all the messages in this thread, it sounds like this is not a too uncommon experience...I haven't experienced >yet< (as he's knocking on wood, and crossing fingers).
<BR>
<BR>What I've read so far, is what end users of the fabs can do, so that they can spot the problem at incoming inspection before populating them...
<BR>
<BR>I'm just throwing the questions out; "How does this happen at the board house? Gerber files are always labeled with which layer it is...what can fab shops do to prevent this?"
<BR>
<BR>Once it hits incoming, it's already too late...
<BR>
<BR>-Steve Gregory-
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I've had a similar thing happen in the past.
<BR>I also use a 'layer build window' to allow a quick optical inspection of the
<BR>bare boards.
<BR>Just a clear area on the edge of the board with a number on each layer from
<BR>1 to n (this can include a revision code as well). You can hold the board up
<BR>to the light and see the build from left to right through the board. It is
<BR>possible to see the difference depths of the characters. I also include
<BR>'drawing number, issue, and layer' information on each layer, just outside
<BR>of the board perimeter in fairly large (0.100") text to make things as clear
<BR>as possible. (As well as the layer build diagram on my master drawing.)
<BR>Another possibility, in addition, would be to include a small copper feature
<BR>on each layer that gets exposed by the edge routing to indicate correct
<BR>layup sequence.
<BR>
<BR>regards,
<BR>
<BR>Phil Dutton C.I.D.
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>-----Original Message-----
<BR>From: Speers, Samuel @ CSE [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
<BR>Sent: Wednesday, 17 October 2001 6:13
<BR>To: [log in to unmask]
<BR>Subject: Re: [TN] PCB layers swapped
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>Genny,
<BR>Don't know about electrical test, but practice at our site since Genesis 1:1
<BR>has been to design in a "window" where the pattern revision of each layer is
<BR>visible. This enables you to see that the correct pattern rev. was used and
<BR>that they are laid up in the correct order.
<BR>
<BR>Sam Speers
<BR>
<BR>-----Original Message-----
<BR>From: Genny Gibbard [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
<BR>Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 1:07 PM
<BR>To: [log in to unmask]
<BR>Subject: [TN] PCB layers swapped
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>Good morning,
<BR>My morning has not been so good. I have a build of PCB's (over 300 boards)
<BR>where two inner layers have been swapped. The board fabricator constructed
<BR>the board in the wrong order. These boards are RF in nature and have
<BR>frequencies approaching 2GHz on them. In many places we put a signal trace
<BR>on the inner layer furthest from the component side and then a wide grounded
<BR>trace over it on the closer inner layer as shielding. So not only is there
<BR>no longer shielding over many traces, these signals are also about .03"
<BR>closer to the component circuitry than they used to be. Can you contemplate
<BR>the nightmare of spurious issues that have been created? We did not notice
<BR>the problem until they were fully populated and almost thru our testing
<BR>process and started failing one of the tests miserably.
<BR>Needless to say, we will be revising our inspection techniques to try to
<BR>catch occurrences like this much sooner.
<BR>
<BR>I was wondering if anyone knows of a way that layer order could be
<BR>electrically tested for on a bare board, that we could require our
<BR>fabricator to complete?
<BR>
<BR>Genny Gibbard (mailto:[log in to unmask])
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT></HTML>
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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 09:37:45 +0300
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Brian Ellis <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Vapor Phase Soldering material
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Back in the days? Vapour-phase soldering is still done! The great
advantages of perfluorocarbons over other halocarbons are that a) they
are chemically extremely stable because the C-F covalent bond requires
much energy to break them; b) they are virtually non-toxic (for the same
reason: they do not break down in the body). In fact they can be used to
replace blood in the body for short periods as they do allow oxygen to
be dissolved and some "sportsmen" have even injected PFCs into the
bloodstream to improve their endurance performance by a higher
oxygenation; c) they are very inert chemically; d) they withstand high
temperatures; e) they are NOT ozone-depleting. Teflon is a solid PFC.
The disadvantages are a) that they are very expensive; b) they are
EXTREMELY global-warming (typically 1 kg of PFC is equivalent to 10
tonnes of carbon dioxide which is roughly equivalent to half the
emissions of a medium car during its lifetime); c) their stability
(~10,000 years atmospheric residence time) is such that end-of-life
disposal is very difficult and costly.
The fluids, be they pure PFCs or PFEs, used for soldering are
sufficiently stable at 210 - 260°C that there is little significant
decomposition. Water hardly enters into the equation because it is
boiled off instantaneously, even if there be some condensation on the
cooling coils. Theoretically, there may be some hydrogen fluoride
generated (no hydrofluoric acid), but I believe that the quantities
would be really negligible, in practice. With the presence of other
organics from the flux residues, I would personally be more concerned
with trifluoroacetic acid, another nasty, but I have not heard of any
cases. Carbonyl fluoride is also not to be excluded, also very toxic.
There is another fluoro-compound, whose name escapes me for the moment,
which did cause some concern in the early days, which is toxic in the
ppb range. However, in practice, I have never heard of any of these
toxic substances being present in sufficient quantity to be of practical
concern.
The real crunch comes when there is a secondary blanket, used in the
early days to reduce losses of the primary fluid. This was initially
always a pure CFC-113 (e.g., Freon TF, Arklone P etc.). Later, because
of the ozone depletion potential of CFC-113 being as high as 0.8, a
lower BP PFC was also proposed. CFC-113 does decompose at the vapour
temperature of the primary fluid, so that the interface zone between the
two vapours was always a hotbed of chemical reactions. This certainly
produced, especially in the presence of water, whose BP was higher than
that of the secondary fluid, a whole panoply of acids and other toxic
substances. For this reason, these machines had both a molecular sieve
to de-water the condensed vapours, but also a filter to remove the
acids, otherwise the stainless steel tank corroded into holes in a
matter of months. It is possibly this that you are thinking of. The most
important decomposition product was hydrogen chloride, which becomes
hydrochloric acid in the presence of water, but there was also phosgene,
hydrogen fluoride, trichloroacetic acid and goodness knows what else. I
feel reasonably certain (abstraction of any environmental effects), if
vapour phase soldering with a CFC-113 secondary blanket were invented
for the first time today, it would never be allowed into a workshop
because of the H&S aspects.
Hope this makes it clear.
Brian
"Marsico, James" wrote:
>
> Back in the days of vapor phase soldering, I seem to recall that
> hydrofluoric acid was a bi-product of the fluorinert mixed with water, or
> was it the Freon mixed with the fluorinert? Could anyone elaborate?
>
> Jim Marsico
> Senior Engineer
> Production Engineering
> EDO Electronics Systems Group
> [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> 631-595-5879
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d
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> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 09:18:24 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Eric Dawson <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Vapour Phase Soldering material
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Brian,
Thanks for stating the facts so clearly. It's such a long time since =
vapour
phase was popular and it was misunderstood then.
The toxic thermal degradation product, by the way, is PFIB,
perfluoroisobutylene. I heard horror stories of this chemical being =
produced
during the early days of machining PTFE when the perpetrator was =
smoking as
well. A sliver lands on the lighted end, he inhales and Goodnight =
Vienna.
Was this an urban myth?
Regards
Eric Dawson
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian Ellis [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 7:38 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Vapor Phase Soldering material
>=20
> Back in the days? Vapour-phase soldering is still done! The great
> advantages of perfluorocarbons over other halocarbons are that a) =
they
> are chemically extremely stable because the C-F covalent bond =
requires
> much energy to break them; b) they are virtually non-toxic (for the =
same
> reason: they do not break down in the body). In fact they can be used =
to
> replace blood in the body for short periods as they do allow oxygen =
to
> be dissolved and some "sportsmen" have even injected PFCs into the
> bloodstream to improve their endurance performance by a higher
> oxygenation; c) they are very inert chemically; d) they withstand =
high
> temperatures; e) they are NOT ozone-depleting. Teflon is a solid PFC.
> The disadvantages are a) that they are very expensive; b) they are
> EXTREMELY global-warming (typically 1 kg of PFC is equivalent to 10
> tonnes of carbon dioxide which is roughly equivalent to half the
> emissions of a medium car during its lifetime); c) their stability
> (~10,000 years atmospheric residence time) is such that end-of-life
> disposal is very difficult and costly.
>=20
> The fluids, be they pure PFCs or PFEs, used for soldering are
> sufficiently stable at 210 - 260=B0C that there is little significant
> decomposition. Water hardly enters into the equation because it is
> boiled off instantaneously, even if there be some condensation on the
> cooling coils. Theoretically, there may be some hydrogen fluoride
> generated (no hydrofluoric acid), but I believe that the quantities
> would be really negligible, in practice. With the presence of other
> organics from the flux residues, I would personally be more concerned
> with trifluoroacetic acid, another nasty, but I have not heard of any
> cases. Carbonyl fluoride is also not to be excluded, also very toxic.
> There is another fluoro-compound, whose name escapes me for the =
moment,
> which did cause some concern in the early days, which is toxic in the
> ppb range. However, in practice, I have never heard of any of these
> toxic substances being present in sufficient quantity to be of =
practical
> concern.
>=20
> The real crunch comes when there is a secondary blanket, used in the
> early days to reduce losses of the primary fluid. This was initially
> always a pure CFC-113 (e.g., Freon TF, Arklone P etc.). Later, =
because
> of the ozone depletion potential of CFC-113 being as high as 0.8, a
> lower BP PFC was also proposed. CFC-113 does decompose at the vapour
> temperature of the primary fluid, so that the interface zone between =
the
> two vapours was always a hotbed of chemical reactions. This certainly
> produced, especially in the presence of water, whose BP was higher =
than
> that of the secondary fluid, a whole panoply of acids and other toxic
> substances. For this reason, these machines had both a molecular =
sieve
> to de-water the condensed vapours, but also a filter to remove the
> acids, otherwise the stainless steel tank corroded into holes in a
> matter of months. It is possibly this that you are thinking of. The =
most
> important decomposition product was hydrogen chloride, which becomes
> hydrochloric acid in the presence of water, but there was also =
phosgene,
> hydrogen fluoride, trichloroacetic acid and goodness knows what else. =
I
> feel reasonably certain (abstraction of any environmental effects), =
if
> vapour phase soldering with a CFC-113 secondary blanket were invented
> for the first time today, it would never be allowed into a workshop
> because of the H&S aspects.
>=20
> Hope this makes it clear.
>=20
> Brian
>=20
> "Marsico, James" wrote:
> >
> > Back in the days of vapor phase soldering, I seem to recall that
> > hydrofluoric acid was a bi-product of the fluorinert mixed with =
water,
> or
> > was it the Freon mixed with the fluorinert? Could anyone =
elaborate?
> >
> > Jim Marsico
> > Senior Engineer
> > Production Engineering
> > EDO Electronics Systems Group
> > [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> > 631-595-5879
> >
> >
> =
------------------------------------------------------------------------=
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> -------
> > Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV =
1.8d
> > To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following =
text
> in
> > the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet
> > To temporarily halt delivery of Technet send the following message: =
SET
> Technet NOMAIL
> > Search previous postings at: www.ipc.org > On-Line Resources & =
Databases
> > E-mail Archives
> > Please visit IPC web site (http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm) for
> additional
> > information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or =
847-509-9700
> ext.5315
> >
> =
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--
> -------
>=20
> =
------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--
> -------
> Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV =
1.8d
> To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following =
text in
> the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet
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SET
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> Search previous postings at: www.ipc.org > On-Line Resources & =
Databases >
> E-mail Archives
> Please visit IPC web site (http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm) for
> additional
> information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or =
847-509-9700
> ext.5315
> =
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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 09:48:20 +0100
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Mike Fenner <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Vapor Phase Soldering material
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I think some people are likely to respond that we are still in the days of
vapour phase...to avoid a diversion
lets just say when first implemented vapour phase machines had two vapour
layers. The primary layer was the Fluorinert which did all the work.
Fluorinert was very expensive so to reduce losses a secondary (sacrificial)
layer of Freon was floated over it. The Freon certainly did tend to break
down to acid and much engineering effort [and even more sales] spent in
keeping the two layers in their respective places, making the machines acid
proof, filters etc. The acid was ordinary hydrochloric (HCL).
Fluorinert could be broken down and there was some evidence of a toxic
chemical being produced, at this distance in time I can't remember what it
was called but so far as I know this was a theoretical risk only. The chance
of it getting out of the machine (and therefore the actual hazard) was tiny.
I would be surprised if hydrofluoric acid was generated and even more
surprised if it accumulated as it would immediately react with just about
anything handy. Better chemists than I will no doubt address this issue
also.
Best regards
Mike Fenner
Applications Engineer, European Operations
Indium Corporation
T: + 44 1908 580 400
M: + 44 7810 526 317
F: + 44 1908 580 411
E: [log in to unmask]
W: www.indium.com
Leadfree: http://Pb-Free.com
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Marsico, James
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 5:49 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Vapor Phase Soldering material
Back in the days of vapor phase soldering, I seem to recall that
hydrofluoric acid was a bi-product of the fluorinert mixed with water, or
was it the Freon mixed with the fluorinert? Could anyone elaborate?
Jim Marsico
Senior Engineer
Production Engineering
EDO Electronics Systems Group
[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
631-595-5879
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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 15:49:16 +0300
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Brian Ellis <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Vapour Phase Soldering material
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Eric,
Thanks, you are right, it was PFIB: I remembered the PF bit, but Mr
Alzheimer had seized the IB. Yes, I had heard the horror stories. One
employer I had in the early 1960s machined a lot of Teflon, including
grinding it. While I was there, he introduced a no-smoking policy in the
workshops for this reason, but none of the machine operators turned up
his toes prior to the ban. Would it be a reasonable hypothesis that, of
the 30 operators or so, half would have smoked in the workshop prior to
the ban and that the chances of, say, 1 of them receiving a chip on a
lit fag end over, say, five years would be high, when there was Teflon
swarf and dust all over the place, including on the clothing (the damn
stuff was so charged that it literally flew at the operators)? Yet not
one was even hospitalised, let alone kicked the bucket. As this was in
Switzerland and not Austria, I don't think Goodnight Vienna was
apposite, maybe Hello, Lausanne!
Personally, I find it difficult to imagine how Teflon (or a VP soldering
fluid) can change readily to (CF3)2.C=CF2 from its -(CF2)n-
construction, even though the F:C ratio is correct. It would imply
extremely high energy would be needed to change the bonds to exactly
that formation, unless the polymer was not pure. However, anything is
possible and small quantities are feasible, I suppose!
Brian
OTOH, I had a customer who had an employee who smoked in the presence of
a heavy concentration of 1,1,1-trichloroethane vapours (machine had
leaked and he was swabbing the liquid from the floor) and who got
pulmonary oedema, as a result of phosgene. Fortunately not fatal, but
sufficient for a couple of weeks in hospital and a permanent resultant
weakness of the lungs. Another client had a low-level phosgene problem
with the same solvent, being used for defluxing in a vapour degreaser in
the same room as the soldering machine. The operators claimed headaches.
Carbon badges detected phosgene at the limit of measurement.
Investigation showed that, whereas it would normally require about
380-400°C for TCA to decompose, tin oxide at 250°C catalysed a minute
decomposition of the vapours, just sufficient to be unpleasant, despite
the extraction from the machine.
Eric Dawson wrote:
>
> Brian,
> Thanks for stating the facts so clearly. It's such a long time since vapour
> phase was popular and it was misunderstood then.
> The toxic thermal degradation product, by the way, is PFIB,
> perfluoroisobutylene. I heard horror stories of this chemical being produced
> during the early days of machining PTFE when the perpetrator was smoking as
> well. A sliver lands on the lighted end, he inhales and Goodnight Vienna.
> Was this an urban myth?
> Regards
> Eric Dawson
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Brian Ellis [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 7:38 AM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: [TN] Vapor Phase Soldering material
> >
> > Back in the days? Vapour-phase soldering is still done! The great
> > advantages of perfluorocarbons over other halocarbons are that a) they
> > are chemically extremely stable because the C-F covalent bond requires
> > much energy to break them; b) they are virtually non-toxic (for the same
> > reason: they do not break down in the body). In fact they can be used to
> > replace blood in the body for short periods as they do allow oxygen to
> > be dissolved and some "sportsmen" have even injected PFCs into the
> > bloodstream to improve their endurance performance by a higher
> > oxygenation; c) they are very inert chemically; d) they withstand high
> > temperatures; e) they are NOT ozone-depleting. Teflon is a solid PFC.
> > The disadvantages are a) that they are very expensive; b) they are
> > EXTREMELY global-warming (typically 1 kg of PFC is equivalent to 10
> > tonnes of carbon dioxide which is roughly equivalent to half the
> > emissions of a medium car during its lifetime); c) their stability
> > (~10,000 years atmospheric residence time) is such that end-of-life
> > disposal is very difficult and costly.
> >
> > The fluids, be they pure PFCs or PFEs, used for soldering are
> > sufficiently stable at 210 - 260°C that there is little significant
> > decomposition. Water hardly enters into the equation because it is
> > boiled off instantaneously, even if there be some condensation on the
> > cooling coils. Theoretically, there may be some hydrogen fluoride
> > generated (no hydrofluoric acid), but I believe that the quantities
> > would be really negligible, in practice. With the presence of other
> > organics from the flux residues, I would personally be more concerned
> > with trifluoroacetic acid, another nasty, but I have not heard of any
> > cases. Carbonyl fluoride is also not to be excluded, also very toxic.
> > There is another fluoro-compound, whose name escapes me for the moment,
> > which did cause some concern in the early days, which is toxic in the
> > ppb range. However, in practice, I have never heard of any of these
> > toxic substances being present in sufficient quantity to be of practical
> > concern.
> >
> > The real crunch comes when there is a secondary blanket, used in the
> > early days to reduce losses of the primary fluid. This was initially
> > always a pure CFC-113 (e.g., Freon TF, Arklone P etc.). Later, because
> > of the ozone depletion potential of CFC-113 being as high as 0.8, a
> > lower BP PFC was also proposed. CFC-113 does decompose at the vapour
> > temperature of the primary fluid, so that the interface zone between the
> > two vapours was always a hotbed of chemical reactions. This certainly
> > produced, especially in the presence of water, whose BP was higher than
> > that of the secondary fluid, a whole panoply of acids and other toxic
> > substances. For this reason, these machines had both a molecular sieve
> > to de-water the condensed vapours, but also a filter to remove the
> > acids, otherwise the stainless steel tank corroded into holes in a
> > matter of months. It is possibly this that you are thinking of. The most
> > important decomposition product was hydrogen chloride, which becomes
> > hydrochloric acid in the presence of water, but there was also phosgene,
> > hydrogen fluoride, trichloroacetic acid and goodness knows what else. I
> > feel reasonably certain (abstraction of any environmental effects), if
> > vapour phase soldering with a CFC-113 secondary blanket were invented
> > for the first time today, it would never be allowed into a workshop
> > because of the H&S aspects.
> >
> > Hope this makes it clear.
> >
> > Brian
> >
> > "Marsico, James" wrote:
> > >
> > > Back in the days of vapor phase soldering, I seem to recall that
> > > hydrofluoric acid was a bi-product of the fluorinert mixed with water,
> > or
> > > was it the Freon mixed with the fluorinert? Could anyone elaborate?
> > >
> > > Jim Marsico
> > > Senior Engineer
> > > Production Engineering
> > > EDO Electronics Systems Group
> > > [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> > > 631-595-5879
> > >
> > >
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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 09:14:51 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Alan Kreplick <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: ASTM B867
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Hello Technetters,
I don't have an ASTM spec book available, but I have a print that calls out
ASTM B678, Type 2, Class 2.0, Grade 0.
What is it?
Thanks in advance,
Al
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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 08:27:04 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Gary McCauley <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Vapour Phase Soldering material
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I had a similar experience several years ago. To make a long story
short, methylene chloride was going through what we call a=20
torpedo heater. A several thousand BTU gas fired portable heater.
Sampling showed phosgene being produced. In fact several workers
had already been taken to the hospital before I was even notified that
there was a problem
gary mccauley
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Ellis [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 7:49 AM
=20
OTOH, I had a customer who had an employee who smoked in the presence =
of
a heavy concentration of 1,1,1-trichloroethane vapours (machine had
leaked and he was swabbing the liquid from the floor) and who got
pulmonary oedema, as a result of phosgene. Fortunately not fatal, but
sufficient for a couple of weeks in hospital and a permanent resultant
weakness of the lungs. Another client had a low-level phosgene problem
with the same solvent, being used for defluxing in a vapour degreaser =
in
the same room as the soldering machine. The operators claimed =
headaches.
Carbon badges detected phosgene at the limit of measurement.
Investigation showed that, whereas it would normally require about
380-400=B0C for TCA to decompose, tin oxide at 250=B0C catalysed a =
minute
decomposition of the vapours, just sufficient to be unpleasant, despite
the extraction from the machine.
=20
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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 09:59:58 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Yuen, Mike" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: BGA corner pad
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Greetings,
I understand BGA reliability is a very complex subject. Folks had been
doing DOEs for years trying to determine the significant factors
involved. For most perimeter PBGA, corners joint seem to be the weakest
link. I wonder if anyone out there had done studies on enlarging just
the corner pads of a BGA to enhance reliability.
Thanks,
M. Yuen
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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 11:12:46 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Stephen R. Gregory" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ASTM B867
MIME-Version: 1.0
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boundary="part1_bd.159ce5a7.28fef9ee_boundary"
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Hi Al,
What I found is that it's a go, no-go solderabilty test. Here's a summary of
the test:
Test Method B678-86(1993) Standard Test Method for Test Method for
Solderability of Metallic-Coated Products
AMERICAN SOCIETY FOR TESTING AND MATERIALS, West Conshohocken, PA. All rights
reserved.
1. Scope
1.1 This test method provides a procedure for evaluating the solderability of
metallic-coated products and test specimens to assure satisfactory
performance in manufacturing processes requiring soldering with soft
(tin-lead) solder and rosin flux. This test method is applicable only for
testing coatings that are normally readily solderable such as: tin, tin-lead
alloy, silver, and gold.
1.2 This test method is qualitative and broadly applicable. It is easy to
perform and requires only simple equipment. There are other solderability
tests not covered by this test method that are more applicable to specific
situations, yield quantitative results, or both. Several are described in the
literature. This is a "go-no-go" test and does not grade solderability as
excellent, good, fair, etc.
1.3 This standard may involve hazardous materials, operations, and equipment.
This standard does not purport to address all of the safety problems
associated with its use. It is the responsibility of whoever uses this
standard to consult and establish appropriate safety and health practices and
determine the applicability of regulatory limitations prior to use.
You can get this standard at:
http://enterprise.astm.org/PAGES/B678.htm
It's only 3-pages long, but they charge $25.00 for it...
-Steve Gregory-
> Hello Technetters,
>
> I don't have an ASTM spec book available, but I have a print that calls out
> ASTM B678, Type 2, Class 2.0, Grade 0.
>
> What is it?
>
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
>
> Al
>
--part1_bd.159ce5a7.28fef9ee_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>Hi Al,
<BR>
<BR>What I found is that it's a go, no-go solderabilty test. Here's a summary of the test:
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=4 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><B>Test Method B678-86(1993) Standard Test Method for Test Method for Solderability of Metallic-Coated Products
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></B>AMERICAN SOCIETY FOR TESTING AND MATERIALS, West Conshohocken, PA. All rights reserved.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=5 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><B>1. Scope
<BR>
<BR></B>1.1 This test method provides a procedure for evaluating the solderability of metallic-coated products and test specimens to assure satisfactory performance in manufacturing processes requiring soldering with soft (tin-lead) solder and rosin flux. This test method is applicable only for testing coatings that are normally readily solderable such as: tin, tin-lead alloy, silver, and gold.
<BR>
<BR>1.2 This test method is qualitative and broadly applicable. It is easy to perform and requires only simple equipment. There are other solderability tests not covered by this test method that are more applicable to specific situations, yield quantitative results, or both. Several are described in the literature.<B> </B>This is a "go-no-go" test and does not grade solderability as excellent, good, fair, etc.
<BR>
<BR>1.3 This standard may involve hazardous materials, operations, and equipment. This standard does not purport to address all of the safety problems associated with its use. It is the responsibility of whoever uses this standard to consult and establish appropriate safety and health practices and determine the applicability of regulatory limitations prior to use.
<BR>
<BR>You can get this standard at:
<BR>
<BR>http://enterprise.astm.org/PAGES/B678.htm
<BR>
<BR>It's only 3-pages long, but they charge $25.00 for it...
<BR>
<BR>-Steve Gregory-
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Hello Technetters,
<BR>
<BR>I don't have an ASTM spec book available, but I have a print that calls out
<BR>ASTM B678, Type 2, Class 2.0, Grade 0.
<BR>
<BR>What is it?
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>Thanks in advance,
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>Al
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>
--part1_bd.159ce5a7.28fef9ee_boundary--
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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 08:35:38 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
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From: Greg Scott <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Cray Inc
Subject: Re: PCB layers swapped
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Genny,
There is a visual way, if your board has no more than 8 to 10 layers.
If room on one edge of board you create a layer window strip through the board.
Every layer has a void of copper (say 1 inch long) then every layer has its layer number
etched in the voided area. Of course the numbers need to be staggered so you can
look through this window and read number order. Example 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
This just doesn't work well if you start to get large layer count PWBs.
You might also want to look at how you are marking your gerber files.
We title every layer clearly (large text) with "layer #, purpose"
LAYER 1- PADS ONLY, COMPONENT SIDE
LAYER 2- GROUND PLANE A
LAYER 3-SIGNAL 1
LAYER 4- GROUND PLANE B
then follow up with a read file which creates the stackup order by gerber file names vs PWB
layer.
TOP.GBR = LAYER 1, COMPONENT SIDE
GNDA.GBR = LAYER 2, GROUND SHIELD
SIG1.GBR = LAYER 3, SIGNAL
GNDB.GBR = LAYER 4, GROUND SHIELD
Also on fabrication drawing we create a stackup detail showing prepreg and core thickness
specifically designed for this PWB. (of course we consult our fabricator before hand)
Then each copper layer is named with the exact name we used to name the gerber file.
maybe a coupon could be created so when cross sectioned it would show correct order
was accomplished. This coupon could be required for every order of fabrication.
This is a tough one and really hurts when this occurs.
Greg Scott
Cray Inc.
Sr. Designer
Genny Gibbard wrote:
> Good morning,
> My morning has not been so good. I have a build of PCB's (over 300 boards)
> where two inner layers have been swapped. The board fabricator constructed
> the board in the wrong order. These boards are RF in nature and have
> frequencies approaching 2GHz on them. In many places we put a signal trace
> on the inner layer furthest from the component side and then a wide grounded
> trace over it on the closer inner layer as shielding. So not only is there
> no longer shielding over many traces, these signals are also about .03"
> closer to the component circuitry than they used to be. Can you contemplate
> the nightmare of spurious issues that have been created? We did not notice
> the problem until they were fully populated and almost thru our testing
> process and started failing one of the tests miserably.
> Needless to say, we will be revising our inspection techniques to try to
> catch occurrences like this much sooner.
>
> I was wondering if anyone knows of a way that layer order could be
> electrically tested for on a bare board, that we could require our
> fabricator to complete?
>
> Genny Gibbard (mailto:[log in to unmask])
>
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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 11:49:38 -0400
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From: Jerry Mosur <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Quad IVC MK2
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Many thanks to all who commented.
We now are realizing that we have to investigate each machine more carefully
and not relay solely on sellers recommendations.
Said that, I would like to tap your fountain of knowledge again.
Given the need for short run, prototype geared assembly profile, what would
be your recommendation for a Pick and Place machine?
Also what is your opinion of MYDATA equipment, highly popular in my Metro,
NY area.
Just don't break the bank, please.
Thanks in advance
Jerry
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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 11:52:31 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Werner Engelmaier <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: BGA corner pad
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Hi Mike,
Corner SJs are not the "weakest" link, they only see the most loading because
they have the largest DNP. And, no, enlarging soldering pads does not work
because the failures are due to creep-fatigue, not over-stressing.
We do know what the significant factors are driving SJ reliability.
Werner Engelmaier
Engelmaier Associates, L.C.
Electronic Packaging, Interconnection and Reliability Consulting
7 Jasmine Run
Ormond Beach, FL 32174 USA
Phone: 386-437-8747, Fax: 386-437-8737
E-mail: [log in to unmask], Website: www.engelmaier.com
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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 17:04:07 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Phil Kinner <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Vapor Phase Soldering material
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Brian is correct when he says that perfluoroethers (and other
perfluorocarbons) are extremely inert (the Russians used them as
artificial blood for Mujahadin casualties way back when) and have a
fairly high global warming potential.
Vapour phase is still around, but has undergone something of a
renaissance in recent times. An alternative approach, known as
condensation soldering has been devised to address the environmental
concerns and issues such as tombstoning/popcorning, which plagued some
of the early processes.
Essentially, condensation soldering is performed in a sealed chamber.
The unit(s) to be soldered enter the chamber. A partial vacuum is drawn
through the chamber to ensure the unit is sealed effectively and to
remove any potential contaminants. The heat transfer fluid is then
pumped onto the hot-plate in the chamber. =20
The fluid then enters the vapour phase and condenses onto the unit(s)
thus effecting heating. The amount of material pumped onto the hotplate
controls the rate of heating, and by using discrete HTF pumping stages,
just about any profile can be created and controlled very tightly.
When the alloy has reached liquidus, the chamber is then evacuated,
again under partial vacuum to remove all the valuable heat transfer
fluid from the chamber. This also has the effect of solidifying the
alloy. When the chamber is emptied of HTF, the chamber door can then be
opened and the unit exits via a cooling fan to enable handling.
Condensation soldering is very efficient and tombstoning and popcorning
are things of the past. Issues such as the large losses of HTF and
Health and Safety issues associated with vapour phase soldering have
been eliminated. In addition, with lead-free processes in particular,
the temperature delta across the board is generally less than 5=BAC, =
which
can be of great significance.
I hope of some interest.
Phil Kinner
Chief Chemist
Concoat Ltd
2C Albany Park, Frimley Road,=20
Camberley, Surrey, GU16 7PH
Tel: +44 (0) 1276 691100
Fax: +44 (0) 1276 691227
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brian Ellis
Sent: 17 October 2001 07:38
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Vapor Phase Soldering material
Back in the days? Vapour-phase soldering is still done! The great
advantages of perfluorocarbons over other halocarbons are that a) they
are chemically extremely stable because the C-F covalent bond requires
much energy to break them; b) they are virtually non-toxic (for the same
reason: they do not break down in the body). In fact they can be used to
replace blood in the body for short periods as they do allow oxygen to
be dissolved and some "sportsmen" have even injected PFCs into the
bloodstream to improve their endurance performance by a higher
oxygenation; c) they are very inert chemically; d) they withstand high
temperatures; e) they are NOT ozone-depleting. Teflon is a solid PFC.
The disadvantages are a) that they are very expensive; b) they are
EXTREMELY global-warming (typically 1 kg of PFC is equivalent to 10
tonnes of carbon dioxide which is roughly equivalent to half the
emissions of a medium car during its lifetime); c) their stability
(~10,000 years atmospheric residence time) is such that end-of-life
disposal is very difficult and costly.
The fluids, be they pure PFCs or PFEs, used for soldering are
sufficiently stable at 210 - 260=B0C that there is little significant
decomposition. Water hardly enters into the equation because it is
boiled off instantaneously, even if there be some condensation on the
cooling coils. Theoretically, there may be some hydrogen fluoride
generated (no hydrofluoric acid), but I believe that the quantities
would be really negligible, in practice. With the presence of other
organics from the flux residues, I would personally be more concerned
with trifluoroacetic acid, another nasty, but I have not heard of any
cases. Carbonyl fluoride is also not to be excluded, also very toxic.
There is another fluoro-compound, whose name escapes me for the moment,
which did cause some concern in the early days, which is toxic in the
ppb range. However, in practice, I have never heard of any of these
toxic substances being present in sufficient quantity to be of practical
concern.
The real crunch comes when there is a secondary blanket, used in the
early days to reduce losses of the primary fluid. This was initially
always a pure CFC-113 (e.g., Freon TF, Arklone P etc.). Later, because
of the ozone depletion potential of CFC-113 being as high as 0.8, a
lower BP PFC was also proposed. CFC-113 does decompose at the vapour
temperature of the primary fluid, so that the interface zone between the
two vapours was always a hotbed of chemical reactions. This certainly
produced, especially in the presence of water, whose BP was higher than
that of the secondary fluid, a whole panoply of acids and other toxic
substances. For this reason, these machines had both a molecular sieve
to de-water the condensed vapours, but also a filter to remove the
acids, otherwise the stainless steel tank corroded into holes in a
matter of months. It is possibly this that you are thinking of. The most
important decomposition product was hydrogen chloride, which becomes
hydrochloric acid in the presence of water, but there was also phosgene,
hydrogen fluoride, trichloroacetic acid and goodness knows what else. I
feel reasonably certain (abstraction of any environmental effects), if
vapour phase soldering with a CFC-113 secondary blanket were invented
for the first time today, it would never be allowed into a workshop
because of the H&S aspects.
Hope this makes it clear.
Brian
"Marsico, James" wrote:
>
> Back in the days of vapor phase soldering, I seem to recall that
> hydrofluoric acid was a bi-product of the fluorinert mixed with water,
or
> was it the Freon mixed with the fluorinert? Could anyone elaborate?
>
> Jim Marsico
> Senior Engineer
> Production Engineering
> EDO Electronics Systems Group
> [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> 631-595-5879
>
>
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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 10:07:43 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Houston, Terri" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: BGA corner pad
Mike,
Folks at Nokia Research Center in Irving, Texas did studies on enlarged
corner pads. They were trying to improve PBGA reliability without using
underfill and found that removing the corner solder joints didn't help much.
Their other option was to strengthen the joints by making the balls
oversize. By making the corner pads and balls bigger, they anchor the
package to the carrier and are better able to handle shock inputs. Their
solution was dubbed "anchor pads."
Let me know if you would like more info.
Terri
> ----------
> From: Yuen, Mike[SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Reply To: TechNet E-Mail Forum.
> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 10:59 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] BGA corner pad
>
> Greetings,
>
> I understand BGA reliability is a very complex subject. Folks had been
> doing DOEs for years trying to determine the significant factors
> involved. For most perimeter PBGA, corners joint seem to be the weakest
> link. I wonder if anyone out there had done studies on enlarging just
> the corner pads of a BGA to enhance reliability.
>
> Thanks,
> M. Yuen
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 11:14:53 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Misner, Bruce" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: BGA corner pad
Mike,
Enlarging the corner pads would seriously affect co-planarity. A better
approach seems to be to eliminate the corner pads. Many manufacturers are
doing this.
Bruce Misner
> ----------
> From: Yuen, Mike[SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Reply To: TechNet E-Mail Forum.
> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 10:59 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] BGA corner pad
>
> Greetings,
>
> I understand BGA reliability is a very complex subject. Folks had been
> doing DOEs for years trying to determine the significant factors
> involved. For most perimeter PBGA, corners joint seem to be the weakest
> link. I wonder if anyone out there had done studies on enlarging just
> the corner pads of a BGA to enhance reliability.
>
> Thanks,
> M. Yuen
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 11:24:21 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Gary McCauley <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Used equipment - request for info
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
If anyone knows where I could possibly find a
used electroless nickel/immersion gold plating
line, please contact me offline.
Thanks,
Gary McCauley
PC Boards, Inc.
Chanute, KS
620 431 0406
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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 11:32:32 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Larry Koens <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: double sided BGAs
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Dear TechNet,
My company has been asked to bid on assembling a board that would have
two BGAs on the topside and two more BGAs mirrored on the bottomside.
That is, they will be directly across from each other on both sides. I
never done them on both sides. So far, everything that I have done has
been on one side only. Has anyone done them on both sides before?
=20
I am figuring xray will be a problem as after the second side is
placed, because the pads/balls will mirror each other on both sides.
Would I be able to tell the difference between the two BGA connections?
Suggestions?
=20
Will I need to epoxy the first side BGAs so they would not drop off
during my second reflow? Wouldn't I need to epoxy them after first
reflow so that the balls could collapse?
=20
Thanks,
Larry Koens=20
SMT Manufacturing Engineer
E.I. Microcircuits=20
Mankato, MN
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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 12:40:42 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Sauer, Steven T." <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Quad IVC MK2
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi Jerry,
A few years ago I was looking for a similar machine but with one added
caviat, to also be used as a small lot, multiple assembly production
machine. I investigated the Zevatechs, the Quads, the Phillips (now
Assembleon) and the Mydatas to name a few. I selected the Europlacer
Progrees 6 and would recommend it as a valid choice for your operations.
Please contact me offline and I can offer other information or answer more
of your questions.
Steve Sauer
Mfg Engineer
Xetron Corporation
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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 09:40:53 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Bob Perkins <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: PCB layers swapped
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi
We assemble high density products up to 18 layers and the window method is
critical to ensure layers are correct. With a PCB with more than 10 layers
you have a window on the bottom side to show the bottom half layers of the
PCB when you flip it over. This way all layers can be accounted for.
Bob P
-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Scott [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 8:36 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] PCB layers swapped
Genny,
There is a visual way, if your board has no more than 8 to 10 layers.
If room on one edge of board you create a layer window strip through the
board.
Every layer has a void of copper (say 1 inch long) then every layer has its
layer number
etched in the voided area. Of course the numbers need to be staggered so
you can
look through this window and read number order. Example 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
This just doesn't work well if you start to get large layer count PWBs.
You might also want to look at how you are marking your gerber files.
We title every layer clearly (large text) with "layer #, purpose"
LAYER 1- PADS ONLY, COMPONENT SIDE
LAYER 2- GROUND PLANE A
LAYER 3-SIGNAL 1
LAYER 4- GROUND PLANE B
then follow up with a read file which creates the stackup order by gerber
file names vs PWB
layer.
TOP.GBR = LAYER 1, COMPONENT SIDE
GNDA.GBR = LAYER 2, GROUND SHIELD
SIG1.GBR = LAYER 3, SIGNAL
GNDB.GBR = LAYER 4, GROUND SHIELD
Also on fabrication drawing we create a stackup detail showing prepreg and
core thickness
specifically designed for this PWB. (of course we consult our fabricator
before hand)
Then each copper layer is named with the exact name we used to name the
gerber file.
maybe a coupon could be created so when cross sectioned it would show
correct order
was accomplished. This coupon could be required for every order of
fabrication.
This is a tough one and really hurts when this occurs.
Greg Scott
Cray Inc.
Sr. Designer
Genny Gibbard wrote:
> Good morning,
> My morning has not been so good. I have a build of PCB's (over 300
boards)
> where two inner layers have been swapped. The board fabricator
constructed
> the board in the wrong order. These boards are RF in nature and have
> frequencies approaching 2GHz on them. In many places we put a signal
trace
> on the inner layer furthest from the component side and then a wide
grounded
> trace over it on the closer inner layer as shielding. So not only is
there
> no longer shielding over many traces, these signals are also about .03"
> closer to the component circuitry than they used to be. Can you
contemplate
> the nightmare of spurious issues that have been created? We did not
notice
> the problem until they were fully populated and almost thru our testing
> process and started failing one of the tests miserably.
> Needless to say, we will be revising our inspection techniques to try to
> catch occurrences like this much sooner.
>
> I was wondering if anyone knows of a way that layer order could be
> electrically tested for on a bare board, that we could require our
> fabricator to complete?
>
> Genny Gibbard (mailto:[log in to unmask])
>
>
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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 10:44:31 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Steve Abrahamson <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: double sided BGAs
Larry,
Plenty of folks out there are running BGAs on both sides. There is more
than adequate solder joint surface area to hold the BGA components on during
the inverted reflow.
Unless you are dealing with blind/buried vias, or perhaps micro vias in the
pad, it is difficult to mirror BGAs in the same location on each side of the
board. I have seen this on test boards without vias, but not in production
Steve A (you don't by chance work with Bob Stathapolus?)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Larry Koens [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Wednesday,October 17,2001 10:33 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] double sided BGAs
>
> Dear TechNet,
> My company has been asked to bid on assembling a board that would have
> two BGAs on the topside and two more BGAs mirrored on the bottomside.
> That is, they will be directly across from each other on both sides. I
> never done them on both sides. So far, everything that I have done has
> been on one side only. Has anyone done them on both sides before?
>
> I am figuring xray will be a problem as after the second side is
> placed, because the pads/balls will mirror each other on both sides.
> Would I be able to tell the difference between the two BGA connections?
> Suggestions?
>
> Will I need to epoxy the first side BGAs so they would not drop off
> during my second reflow? Wouldn't I need to epoxy them after first
> reflow so that the balls could collapse?
>
> Thanks,
> Larry Koens
> SMT Manufacturing Engineer
> E.I. Microcircuits
> Mankato, MN
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
> Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d
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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 11:59:23 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Jason Gregory <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Quad IVC MK2
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Jerry,
I was going to respond to your initial posting and actually recommend the =
Mydata, but didn't want to cloud your investigation on the Quad. I am and =
always will be a high defendant of Mydata PnP's. I have extensive =
experience on TP-9's, TP-11's and TP-18's. I have no experience directly =
with the new MY series. The Mydata's are very user and programmer-friendly =
and their configuration can be easily manipulated to fit your needs. My =
personal opinion and suggestion is, by all means, go for the Mydata, but =
only for mid-to-high mix, low-to-medium volume. The split-gantry setup =
cannot keep up with high volumes. They are very accurate and placement is =
excellent. Also, I wouldn't suggest trying to inline it. It's better as a =
stand-alone. I have experience on Zevatech's, Panasonic's, FUJI's, =
Multitroniks (Europlacer, before the split), Contact's. I believe the =
Mydata's to be superior in low volume arenas. Just my two cents.
Jason Gregory
Software Specialist - NPI Group
SCI Systems/Plant 2
13000 S. Memorial Pkwy.
Huntsville, AL. 35803
(256) 882-4107 x3728
[log in to unmask]
>>> [log in to unmask] 10/17/01 10:49AM >>>
Many thanks to all who commented.
We now are realizing that we have to investigate each machine more =
carefully
and not relay solely on sellers recommendations.
Said that, I would like to tap your fountain of knowledge again.
Given the need for short run, prototype geared assembly profile, what =
would
be your recommendation for a Pick and Place machine?
Also what is your opinion of MYDATA equipment, highly popular in my Metro,
NY area.
Just don't break the bank, please.
Thanks in advance
Jerry
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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 12:04:21 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Jason Gregory <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: double sided BGAs
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Larry,=20
X-ray will, indeed, be a problem if the bottom BGA's are directly =
underneath the top BGA's. You will have heavy shading and opens could be =
virtually undetectable. I program an Agilent 5DX here and even with the =
superior 3D operation of the machine, opens are very difficult to detect, =
even on BGA's with nothing underneath. Shorts and misalignment issues =
should pose no inspection problem, though. Hope this helps.
Jason Gregory
Software Specialist - NPI Group
SCI Systems/Plant 2
13000 S. Memorial Pkwy.
Huntsville, AL. 35803
(256) 882-4107 x3728
[log in to unmask]
>>> [log in to unmask] 10/17/01 11:32AM >>>
Dear TechNet,
My company has been asked to bid on assembling a board that would have
two BGAs on the topside and two more BGAs mirrored on the bottomside.
That is, they will be directly across from each other on both sides. I
never done them on both sides. So far, everything that I have done has
been on one side only. Has anyone done them on both sides before?
=20
I am figuring xray will be a problem as after the second side is
placed, because the pads/balls will mirror each other on both sides.
Would I be able to tell the difference between the two BGA connections?
Suggestions?
=20
Will I need to epoxy the first side BGAs so they would not drop off
during my second reflow? Wouldn't I need to epoxy them after first
reflow so that the balls could collapse?
=20
Thanks,
Larry Koens=20
SMT Manufacturing Engineer
E.I. Microcircuits=20
Mankato, MN
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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 19:03:28 +0200
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Gaby Bogdan <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: double sided BGAs
MIME-version: 1.0
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Concerning the difficulty to analyze the solder joints by X-ray, I have seen
that the best method to improve the testability is to design the outer
layers in such a manner that the BGA pads on one side are shifted between
the pads on the other side.
If your circuits are so, it is possible to check each BGA separately.
Check the artwork.
If not, you must have at least the possibility to rotate the circuit during
inspection.
Gaby
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Koens" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 6:32 PM
Subject: [TN] double sided BGAs
> Dear TechNet,
> My company has been asked to bid on assembling a board that would have
> two BGAs on the topside and two more BGAs mirrored on the bottomside.
> That is, they will be directly across from each other on both sides. I
> never done them on both sides. So far, everything that I have done has
> been on one side only. Has anyone done them on both sides before?
>
> I am figuring xray will be a problem as after the second side is
> placed, because the pads/balls will mirror each other on both sides.
> Would I be able to tell the difference between the two BGA connections?
> Suggestions?
>
> Will I need to epoxy the first side BGAs so they would not drop off
> during my second reflow? Wouldn't I need to epoxy them after first
> reflow so that the balls could collapse?
>
> Thanks,
> Larry Koens
> SMT Manufacturing Engineer
> E.I. Microcircuits
> Mankato, MN
>
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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 13:58:17 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: press fit pins
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="part1_91.11f23bb3.28ff20b9_boundary"
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Where do I find information regarding hole size, plating thickness
recommedations regarding whether these should subsequently be soldered etc?
I have looked in 2221 and just can't find anything
Susan Mansilla
Robisan Lab
--part1_91.11f23bb3.28ff20b9_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>Where do I find information regarding hole size, plating thickness recommedations regarding whether these should subsequently be soldered etc?
<BR>
<BR>I have looked in 2221 and just can't find anything
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>Susan Mansilla
<BR>Robisan Lab</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 14:13:26 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Bev Christian <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: press fit pins
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Susan,
I think you will find the major connector manufacturers quite helpful. If
you have any non-disclosure agreements with major OEMs and/or CMs you may be
able to get some stuff from them as well.
Considerations, some of which I am sure you are aware of are:
dissimilar metals
hardness of the pin coating
presence or absence of lubricant
perpendicularity of the insertion
speed of insertion
hole quality
hole/pin ratio
speed of insertion
expected lifetime of product
service conditions
If you have to solder press fit connectors, there must be a problem. The
whole point is to NOT solder 'em.
The company I work for now does not use pth connectors of any kind, so I
can't offer anything further.
regards,
Bev Christian
Research in Motion
-----Original Message-----
From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: October 17, 2001 1:58 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] press fit pins
Where do I find information regarding hole size, plating thickness
recommedations regarding whether these should subsequently be soldered etc?
I have looked in 2221 and just can't find anything
Susan Mansilla
Robisan Lab
------_=_NextPart_001_01C15737.6A670A00
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 5.50.4207.2601" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=726280518-17102001><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Susan,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=726280518-17102001><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I
think you will find the major connector manufacturers quite helpful. If
you have any non-disclosure agreements with major OEMs and/or CMs you may be
able to get some stuff from them as well.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=726280518-17102001><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=726280518-17102001><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Considerations, some of which I am sure you are aware of
are:</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=726280518-17102001><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>dissimilar metals</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=726280518-17102001><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>hardness of the pin coating</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=726280518-17102001><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>presence or absence of lubricant</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=726280518-17102001><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>perpendicularity of the insertion</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=726280518-17102001><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>speed
of insertion</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=726280518-17102001><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>hole
quality</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=726280518-17102001><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>hole/pin ratio</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=726280518-17102001><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>speed
of insertion</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=726280518-17102001><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>expected lifetime of product</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=726280518-17102001><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>service conditions</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=726280518-17102001><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=726280518-17102001><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>If you
have to solder press fit connectors, there must be a problem. The whole
point is to NOT solder 'em. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=726280518-17102001><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=726280518-17102001><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>The
company I work for now does not use pth connectors of any kind, so I can't
offer anything further.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=726280518-17102001><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=726280518-17102001><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>regards,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=726280518-17102001><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Bev
Christian</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=726280518-17102001><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Research in Motion</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> [log in to unmask]
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> October 17, 2001 1:58
PM<BR><B>To:</B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> [TN] press fit
pins<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=2>Where do I
find information regarding hole size, plating thickness recommedations
regarding whether these should subsequently be soldered etc? <BR><BR>I
have looked in 2221 and just can't find anything <BR><BR><BR>Susan Mansilla
<BR>Robisan Lab</FONT> </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 14:22:17 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Dean Lillibridge <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: press fit pins
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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I would suggest that the manufacturer's spec be reviewed for this
information (hole size and spacing). The recommendation to solder or not
solder should be a customer requirement for the assy of the module based on
the number of mates the connector will have in field applications.
Hope it helps.
Dean Lillibridge
NEWvENTURE TECHNOLOGIES
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of [log in to unmask]
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 1:58 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] press fit pins
Where do I find information regarding hole size, plating thickness
recommedations regarding whether these should subsequently be soldered etc?
I have looked in 2221 and just can't find anything
Susan Mansilla
Robisan Lab
------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C15717.20E44660
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D985471818-17102001><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial =
size=3D2>I=20
would suggest that the manufacturer's spec be reviewed for this=20
information (hole size and spacing). The recommendation to solder =
or not=20
solder should be a customer requirement for the assy of the module based =
on the=20
number of mates the connector will have in field=20
applications. =
=20
Hope it helps.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D985471818-17102001><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=3D985471818-17102001><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff=20
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2> &nbs=
p;  =
; =
&=
nbsp; =20
Dean Lillibridge</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D985471818-17102001><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=3D985471818-17102001><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff=20
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2> &nbs=
p;  =
; =
&=
nbsp; =20
NEWvENTURE TECHNOLOGIES</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D985471818-17102001><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> TechNet=20
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<B>On Behalf Of</B> =
[log in to unmask]<BR><B>Sent:</B>=20
Wednesday, October 17, 2001 1:58 PM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
[log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> [TN] press fit=20
pins<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =
size=3D2>Where do I=20
find information regarding hole size, plating thickness =
recommedations=20
regarding whether these should subsequently be soldered etc? =20
<BR><BR>I have looked in 2221 and just can't find anything =
<BR><BR><BR>Susan=20
Mansilla <BR>Robisan Lab</FONT> </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 14:28:23 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Stephen R. Gregory" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: press fit pins
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Hi Susan!
I think that information needs to come from the vendor, not all press fit
pins are alike, and what may be fine for a Harting press fit connector, won't
be for something from AMP.
Here's a good link from Harting that talks about the technology behind press
fit terminations, and why solder isn't needed with a properly seated press
fit pin:
http://www.harkis.harting.com/WebHelp/EGds/WebHelp/GBGDSPressin_termination.ht
m
You might have to make sure that the link is all there if you do a copy and
paste in your browser...or just type everything in with no spaces...
I know Harting doesn't recommend soldering of their press fit connectors...
-Steve Gregory-
> Where do I find information regarding hole size, plating thickness
> recommedations regarding whether these should subsequently be soldered etc?
>
>
> I have looked in 2221 and just can't find anything
>
>
> Susan Mansilla
>
--part1_13e.3103dbc.28ff27c7_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>Hi Susan!
<BR>
<BR>I think that information needs to come from the vendor, not all press fit pins are alike, and what may be fine for a Harting press fit connector, won't be for something from AMP.
<BR>
<BR>Here's a good link from Harting that talks about the technology behind press fit terminations, and why solder isn't needed with a properly seated press fit pin:
<BR>
<BR>http://www.harkis.harting.com/WebHelp/EGds/WebHelp/GBGDSPressin_termination.htm
<BR>
<BR>You might have to make sure that the link is all there if you do a copy and paste in your browser...or just type everything in with no spaces...
<BR>
<BR>I know Harting doesn't recommend soldering of their press fit connectors...
<BR>
<BR>-Steve Gregory-
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Where do I find information regarding hole size, plating thickness recommedations regarding whether these should subsequently be soldered etc?
<BR>
<BR>I have looked in 2221 and just can't find anything
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>Susan Mansilla
<BR>Robisan Lab </BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>
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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 14:35:24 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: bbarr <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: press fit pins
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Are these press-fit connectors you are talking about? If so, the vendor of
the connector will specify recommended hole size, etc. Why would you want to
solder a press-fit pin? One of the chief advantages of compliant or
press-fit technology is the elimination of soldering. A real plus for dense
connectors and thick boards. We have been using press-fit PCI connectors for
a while now and what a time saver. Of course, tooling and a backing plate
are required, but they can be justified rather quickly.
Bob
Robert Barr
Manufacturing Engineering
Formation, Inc.
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of [log in to unmask]
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 1:58 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] press fit pins
Where do I find information regarding hole size, plating thickness
recommedations regarding whether these should subsequently be soldered etc?
I have looked in 2221 and just can't find anything
Susan Mansilla
Robisan Lab
------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C15718.F4D4C160
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4807.2300" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D890101818-17102001><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Are =
these press-fit=20
connectors you are talking about? If so, the vendor of the =
connector will=20
specify recommended hole size, etc. Why would you want to solder a=20
press-fit pin? One of the chief advantages of compliant or =
press-fit=20
technology is the elimination of soldering. A real plus for dense =
connectors and=20
thick boards. We have been using press-fit PCI connectors for a =
while now=20
and what a time saver. Of course, tooling and a backing plate are =
required,=20
but they can be justified rather quickly.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV><BR>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Bob<BR><BR><BR>Robert Barr<BR>Manufacturing=20
Engineering<BR>Formation, Inc.<BR></FONT></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> TechNet=20
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<B>On Behalf Of =
</B>[log in to unmask]<BR><B>Sent:</B>=20
Wednesday, October 17, 2001 1:58 PM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
[log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> [TN] press fit=20
pins<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =
size=3D2>Where do I=20
find information regarding hole size, plating thickness recommedations =
regarding whether these should subsequently be soldered etc? =
<BR><BR>I=20
have looked in 2221 and just can't find anything <BR><BR><BR>Susan =
Mansilla=20
<BR>Robisan Lab</FONT> </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 14:57:34 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Buccieri, Rich" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: press fit pins
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Here's two more cents... Susan may be referring to pins that are made with
a retention feature that hold it in the board while soldering. True
pressfit-type pins never require soldering unless there was a mistake made
in the hole size during PWB fabrication (hole too large). To repeat, the
first step is to review the part spec.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bbarr [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 1:35 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] press fit pins
>
> Are these press-fit connectors you are talking about? If so, the vendor of
> the connector will specify recommended hole size, etc. Why would you want
> to solder a press-fit pin? One of the chief advantages of compliant or
> press-fit technology is the elimination of soldering. A real plus for
> dense connectors and thick boards. We have been using press-fit PCI
> connectors for a while now and what a time saver. Of course, tooling and a
> backing plate are required, but they can be justified rather quickly.
>
>
>
> Bob
>
>
> Robert Barr
> Manufacturing Engineering
> Formation, Inc.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 1:58 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] press fit pins
>
>
> Where do I find information regarding hole size, plating thickness
> recommedations regarding whether these should subsequently be soldered
> etc?
>
> I have looked in 2221 and just can't find anything
>
>
> Susan Mansilla
> Robisan Lab
>
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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 15:25:40 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Sauer, Steven T." <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: press fit pins
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hello Susan,
If memory serves me correctly there was MIL-STD-2119 for backplane
assemblies that had PTH requirements for compliant pins. On the same
braincell, I believe MIL-A-28870 was the fab spec.
I can remember some extensive conversations regarding the applicability of
"press fit" or "compliant pins" for military applications back in the days
of the Tri-Service Committees for MIL-STD-2000. The bottom line was/is, if
designed, assembled and qualified, then the addition of solder is not
required. Personally, in most instances the addition of a heating cycle to
an already mechanically compressed area may cause more problems than it
could help.
Regards,
Steve Sauer
Mfg Engineer
Xetron Corporation
-----Original Message-----
Subject: [TN] press fit pins
Where do I find information regarding hole size, plating thickness
recommedations regarding whether these should subsequently be soldered etc?
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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 14:42:17 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Mike Duggan <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: BGA pads lifting
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
We are experiencing a problem that I could definitely use some help trying
to determine what is going on.
The board is a very thin (0.020") pcmcia size card manufactured out of Getek
material with a Immersion Gold over Electroless Nickel finish. We are
seeing a fairly high failure rate out of the initial assembled boards. The
failure mode appears to be broken connections in one particular corner of
the BGA. The break is actually occurring where it is ripping the pad off
the board. I have a couple of engineers here that claimed they had the same
problem on a different board about 2 years ago and solved the problem by
going to a HASL finish from a Immersion Gold over Electroless Nickel finish.
I find that hard to believe, but am open to suggestions from anyone out on
TechNet.
Mike Duggan
NPI - SQE
Intermec Technologies Corp.
Phone: 319-369-3364
Fax: 319-369-3722
Pager: 800-251-7921
e-mail: [log in to unmask]
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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 15:57:57 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Stephen R. Gregory" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Trimming Leads...
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hi All,
I've got a question about trimming leads on components such as three-row DIN
connectors, machine pin sockets, PGA devices, things like that...
In the past, I've never trimmed the leads on components like that. But I
can't find any reference that says those are things that you don't lead
clip...
The reason I'm asking is the -610 and J-STD say that for class-3, the leads
are not supposed to be longer than 1.5mm (.0591"). Should leads be clipped on
the kind of components I outlined above if they exceed that?
Thanks!!
-Steve Gregory-
--part1_a5.1d019aa1.28ff3cc5_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>Hi All,
<BR>
<BR>I've got a question about trimming leads on components such as three-row DIN connectors, machine pin sockets, PGA devices, things like that...
<BR>
<BR>In the past, I've never trimmed the leads on components like that. But I can't find any reference that says those are things that you don't lead clip...
<BR>
<BR>The reason I'm asking is the -610 and J-STD say that for class-3, the leads are not supposed to be longer than 1.5mm (.0591"). Should leads be clipped on the kind of components I outlined above if they exceed that?
<BR>
<BR>Thanks!!
<BR>
<BR>-Steve Gregory-</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 15:59:29 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Howard Watson <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Quad IVC MK2
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Jerry,
Jason is right on with the Mydata advice. It is ideally suited for your
situation. An in-line system may cause you problems, it has for us. We
have an in-line MY-15 with electrical component verification, which has
also been troublesome at times. Our machine has about 176 useable 8mm
feeder slots, after subtracting the slots for cameras and tray wagon, so
keep in mind the required size (feeder slots) of the machine for your
boards. The Mydata will let you replace a magazine with different parts
to complete an assembly, though not desirable at medium to high volumes.
Our machine was not necessarily "cheap", but you may find a bargain on the
used market. Also consider the cost of feeders, or magazines on the
Mydata, which run about $10,500 each for the 16 position 8mm.
You mentioned "don't break the bank", which is a common theme these days,
but consider buying something cheap and less than suited for your needs,
and you may end up paying for it every day you build product. The
unsuitable equipment may need frequent operator intervention, cause
excessive downtime, cause rework, etc. The previous I know from our Quad
experience, though they were 5+ years old. Find the right machine suited
for your needs and justify it. We recently set up a new SMT line with
Samsung CP-40's, and they work very well and are value priced. I hope
this helps a little. Good luck!
Howard Watson
Manufacturing Engineer
AMETEK/Dixson
Jason Gregory <[log in to unmask]>
Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
10/17/01 10:59 AM
Please respond to "TechNet E-Mail Forum."
To: [log in to unmask]
cc:
Subject: Re: [TN] Quad IVC MK2
Jerry,
I was going to respond to your initial posting and actually recommend the
Mydata, but didn't want to cloud your investigation on the Quad. I am and
always will be a high defendant of Mydata PnP's. I have extensive
experience on TP-9's, TP-11's and TP-18's. I have no experience directly
with the new MY series. The Mydata's are very user and programmer-friendly
and their configuration can be easily manipulated to fit your needs. My
personal opinion and suggestion is, by all means, go for the Mydata, but
only for mid-to-high mix, low-to-medium volume. The split-gantry setup
cannot keep up with high volumes. They are very accurate and placement is
excellent. Also, I wouldn't suggest trying to inline it. It's better as a
stand-alone. I have experience on Zevatech's, Panasonic's, FUJI's,
Multitroniks (Europlacer, before the split), Contact's. I believe the
Mydata's to be superior in low volume arenas. Just my two cents.
Jason Gregory
Software Specialist - NPI Group
SCI Systems/Plant 2
13000 S. Memorial Pkwy.
Huntsville, AL. 35803
(256) 882-4107 x3728
[log in to unmask]
>>> [log in to unmask] 10/17/01 10:49AM >>>
Many thanks to all who commented.
We now are realizing that we have to investigate each machine more
carefully
and not relay solely on sellers recommendations.
Said that, I would like to tap your fountain of knowledge again.
Given the need for short run, prototype geared assembly profile, what
would
be your recommendation for a Pick and Place machine?
Also what is your opinion of MYDATA equipment, highly popular in my Metro,
NY area.
Just don't break the bank, please.
Thanks in advance
Jerry
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Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Jerry,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Jason is right on with the Mydata advice. It is ideally suited for your situation. An in-line system may cause you problems, it has for us. We have an in-line MY-15 with electrical component verification, which has also been troublesome at times. Our machine has about 176 useable 8mm feeder slots, after subtracting the slots for cameras and tray wagon, so keep in mind the required size (feeder slots) of the machine for your boards. The Mydata will let you replace a magazine with different parts to complete an assembly, though not desirable at medium to high volumes. Our machine was not necessarily "cheap", but you may find a bargain on the used market. Also consider the cost of feeders, or magazines on the Mydata, which run about $10,500 each for the 16 position 8mm. </font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">You mentioned "don't break the bank", which is a common theme these days, but consider buying something cheap and less than suited for your needs, and you may end up paying for it every day you build product. The unsuitable equipment may need frequent operator intervention, cause excessive downtime, cause rework, etc. The previous I know from our Quad experience, though they were 5+ years old. Find the right machine suited for your needs and justify it. We recently set up a new SMT line with Samsung CP-40's, and they work very well and are value priced. I hope this helps a little. Good luck!</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Howard Watson<br>
Manufacturing Engineer<br>
AMETEK/Dixson</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>Jason Gregory <[log in to unmask]></b></font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]></font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">10/17/01 10:59 AM</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Please respond to "TechNet E-Mail Forum."</font>
<br>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial"> </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif"> To: [log in to unmask]</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif"> cc: </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif"> Subject: Re: [TN] Quad IVC MK2</font></table>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Jerry,<br>
I was going to respond to your initial posting and actually recommend the Mydata, but didn't want to cloud your investigation on the Quad. I am and always will be a high defendant of Mydata PnP's. I have extensive experience on TP-9's, TP-11's and TP-18's. I have no experience directly with the new MY series. The Mydata's are very user and programmer-friendly and their configuration can be easily manipulated to fit your needs. My personal opinion and suggestion is, by all means, go for the Mydata, but only for mid-to-high mix, low-to-medium volume. The split-gantry setup cannot keep up with high volumes. They are very accurate and placement is excellent. Also, I wouldn't suggest trying to inline it. It's better as a stand-alone. I have experience on Zevatech's, Panasonic's, FUJI's, Multitroniks (Europlacer, before the split), Contact's. I believe the Mydata's to be superior in low volume arenas. Just my two cents.<br>
<br>
<br>
Jason Gregory<br>
Software Specialist - NPI Group<br>
SCI Systems/Plant 2<br>
13000 S. Memorial Pkwy.<br>
Huntsville, AL. 35803<br>
(256) 882-4107 x3728<br>
[log in to unmask]<br>
<br>
>>> [log in to unmask] 10/17/01 10:49AM >>><br>
Many thanks to all who commented.<br>
We now are realizing that we have to investigate each machine more carefully<br>
and not relay solely on sellers recommendations.<br>
Said that, I would like to tap your fountain of knowledge again.<br>
Given the need for short run, prototype geared assembly profile, what would<br>
be your recommendation for a Pick and Place machine?<br>
Also what is your opinion of MYDATA equipment, highly popular in my Metro,<br>
NY area.<br>
Just don't break the bank, please.<br>
<br>
Thanks in advance<br>
<br>
Jerry<br>
<br>
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<br>
<br>
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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 09:57:45 +1300
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Michael Bell <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Trimming Leads...
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Stephen,
Are you conformally coating the PCA/Components after they have been
clipped?? If so, I wouldn't worry, but if you aren't encapsulating these
components, then perhaps the possibility of copper oxidisation may start to
occur on the exposed copper. I guess that this wouldn't be a concern if the
leads on these devices aren't copper?
-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen R. Gregory [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, 18 October 2001 08:58
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Trimming Leads...
Hi All,
I've got a question about trimming leads on components such as three-row DIN
connectors, machine pin sockets, PGA devices, things like that...
In the past, I've never trimmed the leads on components like that. But I
can't find any reference that says those are things that you don't lead
clip...
The reason I'm asking is the -610 and J-STD say that for class-3, the leads
are not supposed to be longer than 1.5mm (.0591"). Should leads be clipped
on the kind of components I outlined above if they exceed that?
Thanks!!
-Steve Gregory-
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<BODY>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=740005520-17102001>Stephen,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=740005520-17102001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=740005520-17102001>Are
you conformally coating the PCA/Components after they have been clipped??
If so, I wouldn't worry, but if you aren't encapsulating these components, then
perhaps the possibility of copper oxidisation may start to occur on the exposed
copper. I guess that this wouldn't be a concern if the leads on these
devices aren't copper?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Stephen R. Gregory
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, 18 October 2001
08:58<BR><B>To:</B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> [TN] Trimming
Leads...<BR><BR></DIV></FONT><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=2>Hi All,
<BR><BR>I've got a question about trimming leads on components such as
three-row DIN connectors, machine pin sockets, PGA devices, things like
that... <BR><BR>In the past, I've never trimmed the leads on components like
that. But I can't find any reference that says those are things that you don't
lead clip... <BR><BR>The reason I'm asking is the -610 and J-STD say that for
class-3, the leads are not supposed to be longer than 1.5mm (.0591"). Should
leads be clipped on the kind of components I outlined above if they exceed
that? <BR><BR>Thanks!! <BR><BR>-Steve Gregory-</FONT>
</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 14:48:39 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: David Douthit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Trimming Leads...
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="------------97FD62A9C290AF2E19FA6A11"
--------------97FD62A9C290AF2E19FA6A11
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Steve,
If needed cut them to length before soldering. Cutting after soldering
runs the risk of stress fractures in the solder joints plus exposed base
metal.
David A. Douthit
Manager
LoCan LLC
"Stephen R. Gregory" wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I've got a question about trimming leads on components such as
> three-row DIN connectors, machine pin sockets, PGA devices, things
> like that...
>
> In the past, I've never trimmed the leads on components like that. But
> I can't find any reference that says those are things that you don't
> lead clip...
>
> The reason I'm asking is the -610 and J-STD say that for class-3, the
> leads are not supposed to be longer than 1.5mm (.0591"). Should leads
> be clipped on the kind of components I outlined above if they exceed
> that?
>
> Thanks!!
>
> -Steve Gregory-
--------------97FD62A9C290AF2E19FA6A11
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
Steve,
<p>If needed cut them to length before soldering. Cutting after soldering
runs the risk of stress fractures in the solder joints plus exposed base
metal.
<p>David A. Douthit
<br>Manager
<br>LoCan LLC
<p>"Stephen R. Gregory" wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>Hi All,</font></font>
<p><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>I've got a question about
trimming leads on components such as three-row DIN connectors, machine
pin sockets, PGA devices, things like that...</font></font>
<p><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>In the past, I've never trimmed
the leads on components like that. But I can't find any reference that
says those are things that you don't lead clip...</font></font>
<p><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>The reason I'm asking is
the -610 and J-STD say that for class-3, the leads are not supposed to
be longer than 1.5mm (.0591"). Should leads be clipped on the kind of components
I outlined above if they exceed that?</font></font>
<p><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>Thanks!!</font></font>
<p><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>-Steve Gregory-</font></font></blockquote>
</html>
--------------97FD62A9C290AF2E19FA6A11--
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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 18:04:51 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Stephen R. Gregory" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Trimming Leads...
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="part1_ab.10dcde45.28ff5a83_boundary"
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hi David,
Oh yes, I would do that. But again, I'm asking if clipping triple row DIN
connectors, PGA's, machine pin sockets, etc. is a normal deal? Just as a past
practice, I've never clipped leads on devices like that unless it was
specifically called out...and I can't recall if there is something out there
that recommends not clipping devices like that...or that it is not required
because of the design of the leads.
The only thing I can find documented is .0591" max for class-3 boards...
I can understand clipping less robust leads to less than .0591" because of
the possibility that they can be bent and possibly short to each other.
I don't know where I picked it up, but somewhere in the past I was always
under the impression that you didn't clip leads on connectors, PGA's, or
machine pin sockets unless it was specifically called out on a drawing...
I must be going senile...
-Steve Gregory-
> Steve, If needed cut them to length before soldering. Cutting after
> soldering runs the risk of stress fractures in the solder joints plus
> exposed base metal.
David A. Douthit
> Manager
> LoCan LLC "Stephen R. Gregory" wrote:
> >> Hi All, I've got a question about trimming leads on components such as
>> three-row DIN connectors, machine pin sockets, PGA devices, things like
>> that... In the past, I've never trimmed the leads on components like that.
>> But I can't find any reference that says those are things that you don't
>> lead clip... The reason I'm asking is the -610 and J-STD say that for
>> class-3, the leads are not supposed to be longer than 1.5mm (.0591").
>> Should leads be clipped on the kind of components I outlined above if they
>> exceed that? Thanks!! -Steve Gregory-
>>
>
--part1_ab.10dcde45.28ff5a83_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>Hi David,
<BR>
<BR>Oh yes, I would do that. But again, I'm asking if clipping triple row DIN connectors, PGA's, machine pin sockets, etc. is a normal deal? Just as a past practice, I've never clipped leads on devices like that unless it was specifically called out...and I can't recall if there is something out there that recommends not clipping devices like that...or that it is not required because of the design of the leads.
<BR>
<BR>The only thing I can find documented is .0591" max for class-3 boards...
<BR>
<BR>I can understand clipping less robust leads to less than .0591" because of the possibility that they can be bent and possibly short to each other.
<BR>
<BR>I don't know where I picked it up, but somewhere in the past I was always under the impression that you didn't clip leads on connectors, PGA's, or machine pin sockets unless it was specifically called out on a drawing...
<BR>
<BR>I must be going senile...
<BR>
<BR>-Steve Gregory-
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Steve, If needed cut them to length before soldering. Cutting after soldering runs the risk of stress fractures in the solder joints plus exposed base metal.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">David A. Douthit
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Manager
<BR>LoCan LLC "Stephen R. Gregory" wrote:
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Hi All,</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="arial" LANG="0"> </FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="arial" LANG="0">I've got a question about trimming leads on components such as three-row DIN connectors, machine pin sockets, PGA devices, things like that...</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="arial" LANG="0"> </FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="arial" LANG="0">In the past, I've never trimmed the leads on components like that. But I can't find any reference that says those are things that you don't lead clip...</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="arial" LANG="0"> </FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="arial" LANG="0">The reason I'm asking is the -610 and J-STD say that for class-3, the leads are not supposed to !
be longer than 1.5mm (.0591"). Should leads be clipped on the kind of components I outlined above if they exceed that?</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="arial" LANG="0"> </FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="arial" LANG="0">Thanks!!</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="arial" LANG="0"> </FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="arial" LANG="0">-Steve Gregory-</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="arial" LANG="0">
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>
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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 17:47:07 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Charles Caswell <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Trimming Leads...
MIME-Version: 1.0
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If the pins are tempered they should not be trimmed. Also IPC 610 and
J-STD 001 say " should" a recomendation. If they don't cause a problem
in processing. Like catching on the fluxer at wave solder and do not
pose a problem mechanically in the end item you "should not" ( my
recomendation) have to trim. We don't unless specified on the
documentation except where the lenghth causes a problem later.=20
Charles Caswell
Process Lead, PCB
Frontier Electronic Systems
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet E-Mail Forum. [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 4:58 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Trimming Leads...=20
Hi All,
I've got a question about trimming leads on components such as three-row
DIN
connectors, machine pin sockets, PGA devices, things like that...
In the past, I've never trimmed the leads on components like that. But I
can't find any reference that says those are things that you don't lead
clip...
The reason I'm asking is the -610 and J-STD say that for class-3, the
leads
are not supposed to be longer than 1.5mm (.0591"). Should leads be
clipped on
the kind of components I outlined above if they exceed that?
Thanks!!
-Steve Gregory-
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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 18:56:14 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Werner Engelmaier <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Solder columns
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Hi All,
Who puts solder columns onto ceramic BGAs on a commercial basis?
Werner Engelmaier
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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 18:56:13 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Werner Engelmaier <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: BGA pads lifting
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Hi Mike,
If you also get "ripping the pad off the board" besides ENIG interfacial
failures, you have a component that is not thermally symmetric--that is it
warps on temperature changes. Of course, ENIG is not the most optimum of
metallizations either.
Werner Engelmaier
Engelmaier Associates, L.C.
Electronic Packaging, Interconnection and Reliability Consulting
7 Jasmine Run
Ormond Beach, FL 32174 USA
Phone: 386-437-8747, Fax: 386-437-8737
E-mail: [log in to unmask], Website: www.engelmaier.com
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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 18:31:17 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Scott Kramer <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cu-In-Cu boards
X-To: Jim Marsico <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Jim,
I work for a company called ThermalWorks. We have developed a heat
dissipating, thermal expansion controlled product called STABLCOR that is
carbon based. NASA and the U.S. Air force helped fund the research. We use
the same approach as Moon Man described, getting the stablcor layers as
close to the surface of the board as possible. We can achieve a board CTE
of 5-10 depending on how much STABLCOR we use.
The advantages over CIC are:
1) Better thermal conductivity (600 - 900 W/m-k) depending on the grade of
STABLCOR we use. Compared to CIC (160 W/m-k)
2) Lighter (2.20 g/cubic cm) vs. CIC (9.90 g/cubic cm)
3) Better CTE (-1.15ppm @20 degrees C) vs. CIC (4-5 @20 degrees C)
4) Stiffer (Young=92s Modulus of 130 Msi) vs. CIC (19 Msi)
These are raw material properties, but they give you a good idea of what
STABLCOR can do when incorporated in a PCB. We are just going to market,
which is why you probably have not heard about our product. If you want
more info give me a call or send an email...
Scott Kramer
Sales Engineer
ThermalWorks Inc.
714-960-5152 x203
[log in to unmask]
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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 18:44:13 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Jim Makela <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: SMT Component Additions teepee
We are trying to determine the acceptability of adding two SMT components in
series where one component used to be placed. The new additional parts form
a tent or teepee _/\_ looking structure. Is there a repair standard that
specifically accepts or rejects the additional parts soldered in this
manner?
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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 10:51:08 +0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "<Peter George Duncan>" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: double sided BGAs
MIME-Version: 1.0
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We have done boards with BGA's on both sides, but not in mirrored
positions, for the very reason you point out - the difficulty in X-raying
them. You will probably get a result on one side only, by X-raying one side
before populating the other.
Or you can point out the problem to your potential customer and see if they
can re-route the card to avoid this. Either that or find out if the
inspection problem is a concern to them (it should be, even though I've
found most X-rays to be pretty inconclusive as a means of determining how
well assembled the BGA's are).
As for applying epoxy to the components, unless you use a no-flow type
underfill that also acts as a fluxing agent in the assembly, you have no
other means of bonding unless you bond the corners of the BGA's fitted and
x-rayed after the first soldering pass. How big are the BGA's? It's
possible that they're light enough for surface tension to hold them in
place while up-side down during the second solder pass without them falling
off. Steve Gregory, I think it was, once gave a figure of how much weight
per contact can be held in place by surface tension of molten solder - was
it 5 grams per contact? But I don't know if this figure can be applied to
BGA's with their all-solder contacts. The effects of gravity and other
forces may distort the solder joints' form enough to reduce their
reliability.
My tuppence worth (UK value), but hope it helps a little.
Peter Duncan
Larry Koens
<lwkoens@EIMI To: [log in to unmask]
CRO.COM> cc: (bcc: DUNCAN Peter/Asst Prin Engr/ST
Sent by: Aero/ST Group)
TechNet Subject: [TN] double sided BGAs
<[log in to unmask]
ORG>
10/18/01
12:32 AM
Please
respond to
"TechNet
E-Mail
Forum."
Dear TechNet,
My company has been asked to bid on assembling a board that would have
two BGAs on the topside and two more BGAs mirrored on the bottomside.
That is, they will be directly across from each other on both sides. I
never done them on both sides. So far, everything that I have done has
been on one side only. Has anyone done them on both sides before?
I am figuring xray will be a problem as after the second side is
placed, because the pads/balls will mirror each other on both sides.
Would I be able to tell the difference between the two BGA connections?
Suggestions?
Will I need to epoxy the first side BGAs so they would not drop off
during my second reflow? Wouldn't I need to epoxy them after first
reflow so that the balls could collapse?
Thanks,
Larry Koens
SMT Manufacturing Engineer
E.I. Microcircuits
Mankato, MN
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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 19:13:53 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Valquirio Carvalho <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: press fit pins
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The first place I would look is the supplier of the pins that you are =
trying to install. Most suppliers that sell press fit components have =
done a good deal of work to qualify the component and will have all the =
specifications you require to design for and install the component. I =
don't think you are going to find what you need in an industry standard. =
Most of the information you asked for will vary from component to =
component.
If you have specific pins that are giving you trouble, please =
elaborate and someone may be able to help you.
Valquirio N. Carvalho
Mfg. Engineer
Teradyne, Inc.
------=_NextPart_000_007E_01C1573F.DC198260
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<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The first place I would look is the =
supplier of the=20
pins that you are trying to install. Most suppliers that sell =
press fit=20
components have done a good deal of work to qualify the component and =
will have=20
all the specifications you require to design for and install the=20
component. I don't think you are going to find what you need in an =
industry standard. Most of the information you asked for will vary =
from=20
component to component.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> If you have specific =
pins that=20
are giving you trouble, please elaborate and someone may be able to help =
you.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Valquirio N. Carvalho</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Mfg. Engineer</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Teradyne, =
Inc.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 11:02:28 +0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "<Peter George Duncan>" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: BGA pads lifting
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sounds like you have poorly laminated copper to substrate and/or a high
delta CTE. I wouldn't recommend HASL finish for BGA's either. I use ENIG
boards for these, though popular opinion seems to favour immersion silver
for this now.
Peter Duncan
Mike Duggan
<Mike.Duggan@INT To: [log in to unmask]
ERMEC.COM> cc: (bcc: DUNCAN Peter/Asst Prin Engr/ST
Sent by: TechNet Aero/ST Group)
<[log in to unmask] Subject: [TN] BGA pads lifting
>
10/18/01 03:42
AM
Please respond
to "TechNet
E-Mail Forum."
We are experiencing a problem that I could definitely use some help trying
to determine what is going on.
The board is a very thin (0.020") pcmcia size card manufactured out of
Getek
material with a Immersion Gold over Electroless Nickel finish. We are
seeing a fairly high failure rate out of the initial assembled boards. The
failure mode appears to be broken connections in one particular corner of
the BGA. The break is actually occurring where it is ripping the pad off
the board. I have a couple of engineers here that claimed they had the
same
problem on a different board about 2 years ago and solved the problem by
going to a HASL finish from a Immersion Gold over Electroless Nickel
finish.
I find that hard to believe, but am open to suggestions from anyone out on
TechNet.
Mike Duggan
NPI - SQE
Intermec Technologies Corp.
Phone: 319-369-3364
Fax: 319-369-3722
Pager: 800-251-7921
e-mail: [log in to unmask]
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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 11:10:21 +0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "<Peter George Duncan>" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Trimming Leads...
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hi, Steve,
The short answer, I believe, is Yes, but that's only because the
requirement behind the spec is that leads must not be capable of being bent
over to short against their neighbours. Clearance to the next assembly is
also a consideration. Connector pins are pretty stiff and aren't so easily
bent - if they bend far enough to short, the board's probaby wrecked in the
process with the hole/pad damage caused by the bending strain.
Also, how to cut them? Clipping them with cutters is quite a tough
operation, and the shock effects on the solder joints by the clipping
operation is considerable, and can be damaging.
Unless they're excessively long (long enough to contact a neighbouring
assembly or bend more easily to cause shorts, from an engineering pointof
view, I would opt to leave them at their original length. How compliant do
you have to be? Can you raise a waiver or production permit for this
portion of the build?
Peter Duncan
"Stephen R.
Gregory" To: [log in to unmask]
<SteveZeva@AO cc: (bcc: DUNCAN Peter/Asst Prin Engr/ST
L.COM> Aero/ST Group)
Sent by: Subject: [TN] Trimming Leads...
TechNet
<[log in to unmask]
ORG>
10/18/01
03:57 AM
Please
respond to
"TechNet
E-Mail
Forum."
Hi All,
I've got a question about trimming leads on components such as three-row
DIN connectors, machine pin sockets, PGA devices, things like that...
In the past, I've never trimmed the leads on components like that. But I
can't find any reference that says those are things that you don't lead
clip...
The reason I'm asking is the -610 and J-STD say that for class-3, the leads
are not supposed to be longer than 1.5mm (.0591"). Should leads be clipped
on the kind of components I outlined above if they exceed that?
Thanks!!
-Steve Gregory-
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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 11:17:00 +0800
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "<Peter George Duncan>" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Solder columns
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Hi, Werner,
Just a guess, but you could try one of the dummy component manufacturers -
I'm sure Practical Components or Topline have sold me ceramic BGA's with
interposer columns in the past.
Peter Duncan
Werner
Engelmaier To: [log in to unmask]
<Engelmaier@A cc: (bcc: DUNCAN Peter/Asst Prin Engr/ST
OL.COM> Aero/ST Group)
Sent by: Subject: [TN] Solder columns
TechNet
<[log in to unmask]
ORG>
10/18/01
06:56 AM
Please
respond to
"TechNet
E-Mail
Forum."
Hi All,
Who puts solder columns onto ceramic BGAs on a commercial basis?
Werner Engelmaier
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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 05:02:27 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Christopher Lampron <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: HASL Plating Thickness
Hello All,
Is there any specification regarding the max thickness of HASL plated
PCB's. We have recently received a lot of boards where the HASL plating on
the fine pitch device exceeds 3.5 mils. He have an extensive amount of
bridging on these devices now. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Christopher Lampron
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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 12:33:57 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Cathy Killen <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Solder Joint Defects
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Could anyone help with this.
When visually inspecting PCBs to class 3, is there an acceptable percentage
of faults missed? Also is there an acceptable defect level considering PPM
with regards to soldered joints.
Cathy Killen
Training Instructor
Smtek Europe Ltd.
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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 08:07:39 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Bill Raymond <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: double sided BGAs
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
I've done up to 35 mm packages (PBGA) with 492 balls, 1.27 mm pitch... the
surface tension was plenty to hold them in place.
Bill...
At 10:51 AM 10/18/2001 +0800, you wrote:
>..........................................................How big are the
>BGA's? It's
>possible that they're light enough for surface tension to hold them in
>place while up-side down during the second solder pass without them falling
>off. Steve Gregory, I think it was, once gave a figure of how much weight
>per contact can be held in place by surface tension of molten solder - was
>it 5 grams per contact? But I don't know if this figure can be applied to
>BGA's with their all-solder contacts. The effects of gravity and other
>forces may distort the solder joints' form enough to reduce their
>reliability.
>
>My tuppence worth (UK value), but hope it helps a little.
>
>Peter Duncan
>
>
>
>
> Larry Koens
> <lwkoens@EIMI To: [log in to unmask]
> CRO.COM> cc: (bcc: DUNCAN Peter/Asst
> Prin Engr/ST
> Sent by: Aero/ST Group)
> TechNet Subject: [TN] double sided BGAs
> <[log in to unmask]
> ORG>
>
>
> 10/18/01
> 12:32 AM
> Please
> respond to
> "TechNet
> E-Mail
> Forum."
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Dear TechNet,
>My company has been asked to bid on assembling a board that would have
>two BGAs on the topside and two more BGAs mirrored on the bottomside.
>That is, they will be directly across from each other on both sides. I
>never done them on both sides. So far, everything that I have done has
>been on one side only. Has anyone done them on both sides before?
>
> I am figuring xray will be a problem as after the second side is
>placed, because the pads/balls will mirror each other on both sides.
>Would I be able to tell the difference between the two BGA connections?
>Suggestions?
>
>Will I need to epoxy the first side BGAs so they would not drop off
>during my second reflow? Wouldn't I need to epoxy them after first
>reflow so that the balls could collapse?
>
>Thanks,
>Larry Koens
>SMT Manufacturing Engineer
>E.I. Microcircuits
>Mankato, MN
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
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>
>
>
>
>
>[This e-mail is confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the
>intended recipient, please delete it and notify us immediately; you should
>not copy or use it for any purpose, nor disclose its contents to any other
>person. Thank you.]
>
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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 08:15:39 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Sauer, Steven T." <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Trimming Leads...
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Morning Steve,
Typically components are offered in different lead lengths to accomodate
differing board thicknesses and target lead protrusion ( flush to max
.060"). Like any other requirement in the standards (-001 & -610), the
approved assembly drawing takes precedence. In your case, if minimal
electrical spacing at the board assembly and the NHA is not violated, then a
note on the board assembly drawing should be added as such, "maximum lead
protrusion shall be .100" for J1, U1, J3, etc."
As others have advised, there are cutting dies, jigs and fixtures
commercially available that will not degrade the component if performed
prior to component insertion, placement & soldering.
Hope this helps.
Steve Sauer
Mfg Engineer
Xetron Corporation
-----Original Message-----
Subject: [TN] Trimming Leads...
But I can't find any reference that says those are things that you don't
lead clip...
The reason I'm asking is the -610 and J-STD say that for class-3, the leads
are not supposed to be longer than 1.5mm (.0591"). Should leads be clipped
on the kind of components I outlined above if they exceed that?
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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 07:20:00 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Thomas Highland <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Trimming Leads...
MIME-Version: 1.0
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This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
------_=_NextPart_000_01C157CF.3A3399B0
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boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C157CF.3A3399B0"
------_=_NextPart_001_01C157CF.3A3399B0
Content-Type: text/plain
Steve:
I agree with David. Cutting the leads to length PRIOR to soldering is the
best practice. However, per IPC-A-610B, Section 4.2.2, if you clip leads
after soldering you will need to perform a re-solder function on each lead
or inspect each clipped lead at 10X.
Thomas C. Highland
Quality Assurance Manager
Innovatec Communications, LLC.
-----Original Message-----
From: David Douthit [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 16:49
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Trimming Leads...
Steve,
If needed cut them to length before soldering. Cutting after soldering runs
the risk of stress fractures in the solder joints plus exposed base metal.
David A. Douthit
Manager
LoCan LLC
"Stephen R. Gregory" wrote:
Hi All,
I've got a question about trimming leads on components such as three-row DIN
connectors, machine pin sockets, PGA devices, things like that...
In the past, I've never trimmed the leads on components like that. But I
can't find any reference that says those are things that you don't lead
clip...
The reason I'm asking is the -610 and J-STD say that for class-3, the leads
are not supposed to be longer than 1.5mm (.0591"). Should leads be clipped
on the kind of components I outlined above if they exceed that?
Thanks!!
-Steve Gregory-
------_=_NextPart_001_01C157CF.3A3399B0
Content-Type: text/html
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=US-ASCII">
<META content="MSHTML 5.00.2920.0" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=144511612-18102001>Steve:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=144511612-18102001>I
agree with David. Cutting the leads to length PRIOR to soldering is the best
practice. However, per IPC-A-610B, Section 4.2.2, if you clip leads after
soldering you will need to perform a re-solder function on each lead or inspect
each clipped lead at 10X. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=144511612-18102001>
<P><I><FONT face=Arial size=2>Thomas C. Highland</FONT></I> <BR><I><FONT
face=Arial size=2>Quality Assurance Manager</FONT></I> <BR><I><FONT face=Arial
size=2>Innovatec Communications, LLC.</FONT></I> </P></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> David Douthit
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, October 17, 2001
16:49<BR><B>To:</B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [TN] Trimming
Leads...<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>Steve,
<P>If needed cut them to length before soldering. Cutting after soldering runs
the risk of stress fractures in the solder joints plus exposed base metal.
<P>David A. Douthit <BR>Manager <BR>LoCan LLC
<P>"Stephen R. Gregory" wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE="CITE"><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=-1>Hi
All,</FONT></FONT>
<P><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=-1>I've got a question about
trimming leads on components such as three-row DIN connectors, machine pin
sockets, PGA devices, things like that...</FONT></FONT>
<P><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=-1>In the past, I've never trimmed
the leads on components like that. But I can't find any reference that says
those are things that you don't lead clip...</FONT></FONT>
<P><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=-1>The reason I'm asking is the
-610 and J-STD say that for class-3, the leads are not supposed to be longer
than 1.5mm (.0591"). Should leads be clipped on the kind of components I
outlined above if they exceed that?</FONT></FONT>
<P><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=-1>Thanks!!</FONT></FONT>
<P><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=-1>-Steve
Gregory-</FONT></FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
------_=_NextPart_001_01C157CF.3A3399B0--
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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 08:30:51 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Winslow, Hal" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: HASL Plating Thickness
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Christopher,
I'm not sure if there is an industry standard (from IPC or the like) on
HASL, but I'm sure you can get good information from the HASL User's Group.
Their web page is http://huggroup.org/
I have seen a spec from Teledyne Halco (manufacturer of HASL machines)
giving process guidelines that was pretty good. I imagine you can find a
link to Halco from the HUG site.
You can pretty much spec whatever you like (and your supplier agrees they
can meet) on your fab drawings. I'd be sure to spec both a max and min
thickness, and also define HOW thickness will be measured, as that leads to
another whole area of confusion.
Hal Winslow
Mfg Engineer
Lightchip Optical Networking
-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher Lampron [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 6:02 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] HASL Plating Thickness
Hello All,
Is there any specification regarding the max thickness of HASL plated
PCB's. We have recently received a lot of boards where the HASL plating on
the fine pitch device exceeds 3.5 mils. He have an extensive amount of
bridging on these devices now. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Christopher Lampron
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 08:48:25 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Sauer, Steven T." <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Trimming Leads...
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Thomas:
IPC-A-610 is an "acceptability standard" or "workmanship standard" not a
process requirements standard. As you pointed out, rev B attempted to
require a soldering touch-up operation. Rev C properly set the standard
straight by requiring the leads to be visually inspected at 10X and follows
with the words, "as an alternative to visual inspection, the solder
connections may be reflowed." This all comes down to the process being
employed: "solder/cut/solder/inspect" or "solder/cut/inspect" by the
manufacturer, not by a workmanship standard trying to dictate process
requirements. The objective of 610 is provide accept/reject criteria after
processing -- which has been accomplished quite well in Rev C and the
proposed Amendment 1.
Steve Sauer
-----Original Message-----
Subject: Re: [TN] Trimming Leads...
Cutting the leads to length PRIOR to soldering is the best practice.
However, per IPC-A-610B, Section 4.2.2, if you clip leads after soldering
you will need to perform a re-solder function on each lead or inspect each
clipped lead at 10X.
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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 08:50:05 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Lampron, Chris" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: HASL Plating Thickness
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Thank you Hal
Chris
-----Original Message-----
From: Winslow, Hal [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 8:31 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] HASL Plating Thickness
Christopher,
I'm not sure if there is an industry standard (from IPC or the like) on
HASL, but I'm sure you can get good information from the HASL User's Group.
Their web page is http://huggroup.org/
I have seen a spec from Teledyne Halco (manufacturer of HASL machines)
giving process guidelines that was pretty good. I imagine you can find a
link to Halco from the HUG site.
You can pretty much spec whatever you like (and your supplier agrees they
can meet) on your fab drawings. I'd be sure to spec both a max and min
thickness, and also define HOW thickness will be measured, as that leads to
another whole area of confusion.
Hal Winslow
Mfg Engineer
Lightchip Optical Networking
-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher Lampron [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 6:02 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] HASL Plating Thickness
Hello All,
Is there any specification regarding the max thickness of HASL plated
PCB's. We have recently received a lot of boards where the HASL plating on
the fine pitch device exceeds 3.5 mils. He have an extensive amount of
bridging on these devices now. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Christopher Lampron
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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 08:51:27 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: bbarr <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Trimming Leads...
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C157B2.12A234E0"
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C157B2.12A234E0
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I'm with you Steve (going senile, that is.) I consider components like
connectors, sockets, etc. to be in the category of "pre-established lead
lengths." I do not touch them unless there is a special requirement due to
electrical spacing constraints. If that is the case, it should be clearly
defined on the assembly drawing (or better yet designed out before it gets
that far.) Also, cutting tempered leads leads (pun intended) to more
problems than it solves, as others have mentioned.
Speaking of senile, what was the writer thinking of when he or she put a
number like .0591 in 610 and 001? Is it just me, or is four decimal places
inappropriate here? Don't they know there are inspectors who will actually
try to measure that? Yeah, I know the short answer is that it is the decimal
equivalent of 1.5mm. But, couldn't it have been rounded to a more realistic
figure like .06 without losing the intent? The spec seems somewhat
inconsistent in this regard. In other sections, mm equivalents are rounded
to two places (such as .5mm becoming .02") and three places (such as .8mm
becoming .031".) Hopefully future revisions will have pity on us hapless
manufacturing engineers and change things like this. Sorry for the
diversion.
Bob
Robert Barr
Manufacturing Engineering
Formation, Inc.
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Stephen R. Gregory
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 6:05 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Trimming Leads...
Hi David,
Oh yes, I would do that. But again, I'm asking if clipping triple row DIN
connectors, PGA's, machine pin sockets, etc. is a normal deal? Just as a
past practice, I've never clipped leads on devices like that unless it was
specifically called out...and I can't recall if there is something out there
that recommends not clipping devices like that...or that it is not required
because of the design of the leads.
The only thing I can find documented is .0591" max for class-3 boards...
I can understand clipping less robust leads to less than .0591" because of
the possibility that they can be bent and possibly short to each other.
I don't know where I picked it up, but somewhere in the past I was always
under the impression that you didn't clip leads on connectors, PGA's, or
machine pin sockets unless it was specifically called out on a drawing...
I must be going senile...
-Steve Gregory-
------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C157B2.12A234E0
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charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4807.2300" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D310052212-18102001><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I'm =
with you=20
Steve (going senile, that is.) I consider components like =
connectors,=20
sockets, etc. to be in the category of "pre-established lead lengths." I =
do not=20
touch them unless there is a special requirement due to electrical =
spacing=20
constraints. If that is the case, it should be clearly defined on the =
assembly=20
drawing (or better yet designed out before it gets that far.) Also, =
cutting=20
tempered leads leads (pun intended) to more problems than it solves, as =
others=20
have mentioned.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D310052212-18102001><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D310052212-18102001><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Speaking of senile,=20
what was the writer thinking of when he or she put a number like .0591 =
in 610=20
and 001? Is it just me, or is four decimal places inappropriate here? =
Don't they=20
know there are inspectors who will actually try to measure that? Yeah, I =
know=20
the short answer is that it is the decimal equivalent of 1.5mm. But,=20
couldn't it have been rounded to a more realistic figure like =
.06=20
without losing the intent? The spec seems somewhat inconsistent in =
this=20
regard. In other sections, mm equivalents are rounded to two =
places (such=20
as .5mm becoming .02") and three places (such as .8mm becoming .031".) =
Hopefully=20
future revisions will have pity on us hapless manufacturing =
engineers and=20
change things like this. Sorry for the =
diversion. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT><BR>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Bob<BR><BR><BR>Robert Barr<BR>Manufacturing=20
Engineering<BR>Formation, Inc.</FONT> </P>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> TechNet=20
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Stephen R. =
Gregory<BR><B>Sent:</B>=20
Wednesday, October 17, 2001 6:05 PM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
[log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [TN] Trimming=20
Leads...<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =
size=3D2>Hi David,=20
<BR><BR>Oh yes, I would do that. But again, I'm asking if clipping =
triple row=20
DIN connectors, PGA's, machine pin sockets, etc. is a normal deal? =
Just as a=20
past practice, I've never clipped leads on devices like that unless it =
was=20
specifically called out...and I can't recall if there is something out =
there=20
that recommends not clipping devices like that...or that it is not =
required=20
because of the design of the leads. <BR><BR>The only thing I can find=20
documented is .0591" max for class-3 boards... <BR><BR>I can =
understand=20
clipping less robust leads to less than .0591" because of the =
possibility that=20
they can be bent and possibly short to each other. <BR><BR>I don't =
know where=20
I picked it up, but somewhere in the past I was always under the =
impression=20
that you didn't clip leads on connectors, PGA's, or machine pin =
sockets unless=20
it was specifically called out on a drawing... <BR><BR>I must be going =
senile... <BR><BR>-Steve Gregory- </FONT><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial =
size=3D2=20
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 13:46:50 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Steve Owen <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: double sided BGAs
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Larry,
Concerning inspection of BGA's I have just purchased kit supplied by a
company called Ersa. They use a form of endoscope that is able to look
between the pcb and the underside of the BGA between the rows of solder
balls. To check if the device has reflowed properly. It also comes with an
extensive fault library wihin it's software.
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Raymond [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 18 October 2001 13:08
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] double sided BGAs
I've done up to 35 mm packages (PBGA) with 492 balls, 1.27 mm pitch... the
surface tension was plenty to hold them in place.
Bill...
At 10:51 AM 10/18/2001 +0800, you wrote:
>..........................................................How big are the
>BGA's? It's
>possible that they're light enough for surface tension to hold them in
>place while up-side down during the second solder pass without them falling
>off. Steve Gregory, I think it was, once gave a figure of how much weight
>per contact can be held in place by surface tension of molten solder - was
>it 5 grams per contact? But I don't know if this figure can be applied to
>BGA's with their all-solder contacts. The effects of gravity and other
>forces may distort the solder joints' form enough to reduce their
>reliability.
>
>My tuppence worth (UK value), but hope it helps a little.
>
>Peter Duncan
>
>
>
>
> Larry Koens
> <lwkoens@EIMI To: [log in to unmask]
> CRO.COM> cc: (bcc: DUNCAN Peter/Asst
> Prin Engr/ST
> Sent by: Aero/ST Group)
> TechNet Subject: [TN] double sided
BGAs
> <[log in to unmask]
> ORG>
>
>
> 10/18/01
> 12:32 AM
> Please
> respond to
> "TechNet
> E-Mail
> Forum."
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Dear TechNet,
>My company has been asked to bid on assembling a board that would have
>two BGAs on the topside and two more BGAs mirrored on the bottomside.
>That is, they will be directly across from each other on both sides. I
>never done them on both sides. So far, everything that I have done has
>been on one side only. Has anyone done them on both sides before?
>
> I am figuring xray will be a problem as after the second side is
>placed, because the pads/balls will mirror each other on both sides.
>Would I be able to tell the difference between the two BGA connections?
>Suggestions?
>
>Will I need to epoxy the first side BGAs so they would not drop off
>during my second reflow? Wouldn't I need to epoxy them after first
>reflow so that the balls could collapse?
>
>Thanks,
>Larry Koens
>SMT Manufacturing Engineer
>E.I. Microcircuits
>Mankato, MN
>
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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 08:59:41 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: bbarr <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Solder Joint Defects
In-Reply-To: <A1630D6F27C0D21198AF00805F613595465847@DDLSBS>
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If you are the customer, the acceptable defect level is 0, regardless of
class. But seriously, I have seen figures published that indicate visual
inspection to be, at best, 80% effective. I think that number probably
varies a lot based on time of day, day before or after a weekend or holiday,
complexity of the board, etc. Rather than setting an acceptable level, I
would concentrate on having a process that is as robust as possible and
having a system that identifies defects before they get out the door.
Bob
Robert Barr
Manufacturing Engineering
Formation, Inc.
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Cathy Killen
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 7:34 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Solder Joint Defects
Importance: High
Could anyone help with this.
When visually inspecting PCBs to class 3, is there an acceptable percentage
of faults missed? Also is there an acceptable defect level considering PPM
with regards to soldered joints.
Cathy Killen
Training Instructor
Smtek Europe Ltd.
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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 08:06:43 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Thomas Highland <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Trimming Leads...
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Steve:
You are correct. Thanks for your in depth elaboration on the subject matter.
Tom Highland
-----Original Message-----
From: Sauer, Steven T. [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 07:48
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Trimming Leads...
Thomas:
IPC-A-610 is an "acceptability standard" or "workmanship standard" not a
process requirements standard. As you pointed out, rev B attempted to
require a soldering touch-up operation. Rev C properly set the standard
straight by requiring the leads to be visually inspected at 10X and follows
with the words, "as an alternative to visual inspection, the solder
connections may be reflowed." This all comes down to the process being
employed: "solder/cut/solder/inspect" or "solder/cut/inspect" by the
manufacturer, not by a workmanship standard trying to dictate process
requirements. The objective of 610 is provide accept/reject criteria after
processing -- which has been accomplished quite well in Rev C and the
proposed Amendment 1.
Steve Sauer
-----Original Message-----
Subject: Re: [TN] Trimming Leads...
Cutting the leads to length PRIOR to soldering is the best practice.
However, per IPC-A-610B, Section 4.2.2, if you clip leads after soldering
you will need to perform a re-solder function on each lead or inspect each
clipped lead at 10X.
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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 09:06:12 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Dean Lillibridge <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: PCMCIA ENCLOSURES
In-Reply-To: <008101c15761$63d2fb20$041e5b0c@pavilion>
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Not sure if this is the correct forum, but I'm in need of some education in
regards to the final stages of packaging a PCMCIA card. I'm specifically
looking for information in regards to the metal case enclosures and
shielding options for the assy once the electronic card is stuffed. Also
looking for leads of vendors who sell the cases and for ballpark average of
cost for the enclosure. Any information is greatly appreciated.
Thanks.
Dean Lillibridge
NEWvENTURE TECHNOLOGIES
------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C157B4.22E38370
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D996030213-18102001><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Not=20
sure if this is the correct forum, but I'm in need of some education in =
regards=20
to the final stages of packaging a PCMCIA card. I'm specifically =
looking=20
for information in regards to the metal case enclosures and shielding =
options=20
for the assy once the electronic card is stuffed. Also looking for =
leads=20
of vendors who sell the cases and for ballpark average of cost for the=20
enclosure. Any information is greatly=20
appreciated. =20
Thanks.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D996030213-18102001><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial =
size=3D2> &nbs=
p;  =
; =
=20
Dean Lillibridge</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D996030213-18102001><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial =
size=3D2> &nbs=
p;  =
; =
=20
NEWvENTURE TECHNOLOGIES</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D996030213-18102001><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 08:15:46 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Mel Parrish <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Trimming Leads...
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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There are a lot of reasons not to trim these types of leads among them are
mechanical shock to the component, damage to the solder connection if
soldered in place (causes fractures during operational cycling), Exposed
base material (usually not copper for these), Damage to the board, etc.
Years past we had specific shear cutters that could perform an OK job on
leads such as DIPs without transferring as much shock to the component but I
would certainly not attempt their use on PGAs.
Mel Parrish
Soldering Technology International
Madison, AL
256 705 5530
256 705 5538 Fax
[log in to unmask]
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Charles Caswell
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 3:47 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Trimming Leads...
If the pins are tempered they should not be trimmed. Also IPC 610 and
J-STD 001 say " should" a recomendation. If they don't cause a problem
in processing. Like catching on the fluxer at wave solder and do not
pose a problem mechanically in the end item you "should not" ( my
recomendation) have to trim. We don't unless specified on the
documentation except where the lenghth causes a problem later.
Charles Caswell
Process Lead, PCB
Frontier Electronic Systems
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet E-Mail Forum. [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 4:58 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Trimming Leads...
Hi All,
I've got a question about trimming leads on components such as three-row
DIN
connectors, machine pin sockets, PGA devices, things like that...
In the past, I've never trimmed the leads on components like that. But I
can't find any reference that says those are things that you don't lead
clip...
The reason I'm asking is the -610 and J-STD say that for class-3, the
leads
are not supposed to be longer than 1.5mm (.0591"). Should leads be
clipped on
the kind of components I outlined above if they exceed that?
Thanks!!
-Steve Gregory-
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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 14:14:56 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Frank Davies <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: HASL Plating Thickness
MIME-Version: 1.0
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-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher Lampron <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Thursday, October 18, 2001 11:31 AM
Subject: [TN] HASL Plating Thickness
------------------
Christopher
You may look at Chapter 30 of Printed Circuits Materials Handbook
HOT AIR LEVELING
Sherry Goodell
Teledyne Electronic Technologies, Halco
Londonderry, New Hampshire
Frank
----------------------------------
>Hello All,
>
>Is there any specification regarding the max thickness of HASL plated
>PCB's. We have recently received a lot of boards where the HASL plating on
>the fine pitch device exceeds 3.5 mils. He have an extensive amount of
>bridging on these devices now. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
>
>Thanks
>
>Christopher Lampron
>
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>Please visit IPC web site (http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm) for
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>
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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 08:39:32 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Kathy Kuhlow <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Trimming Leads...
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Is it possible that the customer or end use doesn't need that stingent of =
lead requirments? I have had class 3 where the customer waived the =
requirements for devices like this because the class was mainly chosen for =
placement, cleanliness, and solder but lead length wasn't an issue. It =
also costed more to have them trimemd then to leave them alone so the =
custoemr wanted to save some money.=20
Kathy=20
--=_C993318F.F697FA89
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<BODY
style="FONT: 10pt Abadi MT Condensed Light; MARGIN-LEFT: 2px; MARGIN-TOP: 2px">
<DIV>Is it possible that the customer or end use doesn't need that stingent of
lead requirments? I have had class 3 where the customer waived the
requirements for devices like this because the class was mainly chosen for
placement, cleanliness, and solder but lead length wasn't an issue. It
also costed more to have them trimemd then to leave them alone so the custoemr
wanted to save some money. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Kathy </DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 09:41:53 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Nancy Trumbull <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Solder Joint Defects
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Cathy,
I was in the process of writing almost the same statement as Bob, when I =
stopped to check and see if any one had answered you yet. I started in =
this field around 1979. I'm not sure when I picked it up first but I have =
always heard that 15 to 20% of defects are leaked by visual inspection.
Therefore my action has always been to try and control the process. I will =
amit that this does get hard sometimes. There are steps you can take to =
aid with your inspection. As a standard process flow, to always view the =
part in the same pattern. But I have always been a person that deals with =
root cause. As you know Leakage perversion will increase as you decrease =
your defects. Hope I said that right.
Just backing up Bob.
Have a good day
Nancy T.
>>> [log in to unmask] 10/18/01 07:33AM >>>
Could anyone help with this.
When visually inspecting PCBs to class 3, is there an acceptable percentage=
of faults missed? Also is there an acceptable defect level considering PPM
with regards to soldered joints.
Cathy Killen
Training Instructor
Smtek Europe Ltd.
The information contained in the E-mail is confidential. It is intended =
only
for the stated addressee(s) and access to it by any other person is
unauthorised.
The views expressed in this E-mail are those of the author, and do not
represent the views of Smtek Europe, its associates or subsidiaries, =
unless
otherwise expressly indicated.
Please note: It is your responsibility to scan this E-mail for viruses.
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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 08:45:00 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Kathy Kuhlow <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Trimming Leads...
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Steve,=20
Are you thinking about the lead length exception for components with =
predefined lead lenths? This is when the PCB is too thick but that is an =
allowance for minimum length not max. =20
Kathy=20
--=_BEE446FF.F091FC8F
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<BODY
style="FONT: 10pt Abadi MT Condensed Light; MARGIN-LEFT: 2px; MARGIN-TOP: 2px">
<DIV>Steve, </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Are you thinking about the lead length exception for components with
predefined lead lenths? This is when the PCB is too thick but that is an
allowance for minimum length not max. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Kathy </DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 08:30:00 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Ken Hafften <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Reject Marking
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Presently we identify rejected parts on multiple up panels after lamination
by using an "X" made with a metal stamp. This stamped "X" creates other
problems during the subsequent circuit board manufacturing process steps
such as an uneven surface for imaging. Does anyone have another method for
marking rejects at lamination.
Thanks in advance for any assistance.
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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 10:00:59 -0400
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Francois Monette <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: double side BGAs
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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Larry,
Another major issue is often overlooked for double side boards with moisture
sensitive components on both sides, as in this case.
The key point is that the first reflow does not bake the moisture out of the
components. Moisture diffusion inside a plastic package is a very slow
process and a reflow cycle is much too fast to have any significant impact.
The net result is that the components on the first side continue to absorb
moisture after they are reflowed on the board, in addition to what they had
already absorbed prior to placement. Of course, you need to make sure that
the board will go back through the second reflow before any of the
components, one the top and bottom side have reached the limit of their
floor life.
The outcome is that for double-sided boards you have to account for the
overall exposure time, from the time that all parts were originally taken
out of their dry bags, until the final reflow is complete. This means that
whatever system or procedure you had in place for controlling
moisture-sensitive components must be extended to track partially assembled
boards and their remaining floor life in addition to the remaining floor
life of components prior to placement.
The above requirements are clearly defined in the joint IPC/JEDEC standard
J-STD-033, section 8.4.4 : "If more than one reflow pass is used, care must
be taken to ensure that no moisture sensitive components, mounted or
unmounted, have exceeded their floor life prior to the final pass".
I hope this information is helpful,
Regards,
Francois Monette
Cogiscan Inc.
50 De Gaspe, Suite A5
Bromont, Quebec, Canada, J2L 2N8
Tel : (450)534-2644
Fax: (450)534-0092
www.cogiscan.com
>Dear TechNet,
>My company has been asked to bid on assembling a board that would have
>two BGAs on the topside and two more BGAs mirrored on the bottomside.
>That is, they will be directly across from each other on both sides. I
>never done them on both sides. So far, everything that I have done has
>been on one side only. Has anyone done them on both sides before?
>
> I am figuring xray will be a problem as after the second side is
>placed, because the pads/balls will mirror each other on both sides.
>Would I be able to tell the difference between the two BGA connections?
>Suggestions?
>
>Will I need to epoxy the first side BGAs so they would not drop off
>during my second reflow? Wouldn't I need to epoxy them after first
>reflow so that the balls could collapse?
>
>Thanks,
>Larry Koens
>SMT Manufacturing Engineer
>E.I. Microcircuits
>Mankato, MN
***************
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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 15:43:33 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "d. terstegge" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: HASL Plating Thickness
X-To: [log in to unmask]
MIME-Version: 1.0 (Generated by NET-TEL Mailguard SMTP version 4.0.0.22)
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Even better: you don't have to buy the book, as this chapter 30 is =
available on-line at http://people.ne.mediaone.net/sgoodell/chapter30/ch30.=
html
Daan Terstegge
SMT Centre
Thales Communications
Unclassified mail
Personal Website: http://www.smtinfo.net
>>> Frank Davies <[log in to unmask]> 10/18 2:14 pm >>>
-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher Lampron <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Thursday, October 18, 2001 11:31 AM
Subject: [TN] HASL Plating Thickness
------------------
Christopher
You may look at Chapter 30 of Printed Circuits Materials Handbook
HOT AIR LEVELING
Sherry Goodell
Teledyne Electronic Technologies, Halco
Londonderry, New Hampshire
Frank
----------------------------------
>Hello All,
>
>Is there any specification regarding the max thickness of HASL plated
>PCB's. We have recently received a lot of boards where the HASL plating =
on
>the fine pitch device exceeds 3.5 mils. He have an extensive amount of
>bridging on these devices now. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
>
>Thanks
>
>Christopher Lampron
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
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>
E-mail Archives
>Please visit IPC web site (http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm) for
additional
>information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-509-9700
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>--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
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>
>
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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 09:33:02 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Long, Thomas" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Aqueous Technologies Corrosion Issue
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
We are currently using two separate SMT600CL DI water cleaners to
remove ionics from printed circuit assemblies after a defluxing operation.
The system is strictly DI water since we are not performing any flux removal
during this process. After only 6 months of usage we discovered a
Black-Brown-Orange solid particulate being deposited in the wash chamber on
both machines. Analysis determined the material is Iron Oxide, or more
commonly called "RUST". It turns out that the heating element used during
the drying cycle has become corroded. I don't think that I need to tell all
of you how alarming this is, blowing a metallic oxide onto hardware that is
only being put in this machine to remove ionics. I send this e-mail to the
rest of TechNet to first warn others of a potential design issue with
Aqueous Tech DI cleaners and secondly to obtain feedback from current users
of their machines to see if others have run into the same problem. I am
awaiting a written response from aqueous Technologies on what the fix will
be for this problem.
Thanks
Tom Long
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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 15:55:14 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Stephen Brown <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Xyratex
Subject: PCB depanelling
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People.
Many years ago when I worked on a manufacturing line we used to use a
small hand held "nibbler" for cutting through breakout tabs on PCB
assemblies. I've looked all through the RS and Farnell catalogues and
can't find this tool anywhere. Do any of you have recollections of such
a tool and if so where can I get one from.
Regards.
Steve Brown.
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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 10:09:55 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Kathy Kuhlow <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: PCB depanelling
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check out FKN
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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 09:13:06 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Ryan Grant <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: double sided BGAs
Hi Larry,
I just got through x-ray inspecting some test boards where the FBGA's where
specifically mirrored for solder joint studies. Inspection was not a
problem both because of parallax and the slight misalignment of the source
from being perfectly perpendicular to the board. This all means that if I
try really hard, the planets come into perfect alignment, and I shake the
chicken feet over the x-ray, I can get one joint (and only one joint) to be
perfectly lined up over the other. All other joints are naturally offset
from each other.
The joints will be overlap slightly, and will require some sleuthing to
determine which side a defect belongs to. Further, the overlap of the
joints might cause problems for automated x-ray inspection.
Kind Regards
Ryan Grant
Advanced Technology Engineer
MCMS
(208) 898-1145
[log in to unmask]
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Larry Koens [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 10:33 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] double sided BGAs
>
> Dear TechNet,
> My company has been asked to bid on assembling a board that would have
> two BGAs on the topside and two more BGAs mirrored on the bottomside.
> That is, they will be directly across from each other on both sides. I
> never done them on both sides. So far, everything that I have done has
> been on one side only. Has anyone done them on both sides before?
>
> I am figuring xray will be a problem as after the second side is
> placed, because the pads/balls will mirror each other on both sides.
> Would I be able to tell the difference between the two BGA connections?
> Suggestions?
>
> Will I need to epoxy the first side BGAs so they would not drop off
> during my second reflow? Wouldn't I need to epoxy them after first
> reflow so that the balls could collapse?
>
> Thanks,
> Larry Koens
> SMT Manufacturing Engineer
> E.I. Microcircuits
> Mankato, MN
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 16:29:05 +0100
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Steve Owen <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: PCB depanelling
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Steve,
We use a bench mounted version of the hand held "nibbler" this gives the
operator more flexibility. They are made by CAB. This is their E mail adress
www.cabgmbh.com.
Tel:- +49/7 21/66 26-222.
-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Brown [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 18 October 2001 15:55
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] PCB depanelling
People.
Many years ago when I worked on a manufacturing line we used to use a
small hand held "nibbler" for cutting through breakout tabs on PCB
assemblies. I've looked all through the RS and Farnell catalogues and
can't find this tool anywhere. Do any of you have recollections of such
a tool and if so where can I get one from.
Regards.
Steve Brown.
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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 11:54:39 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Stephen R. Gregory" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Waste water treatment systems...
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Hi all,
I'm looking into waste water treatment systems now, and wonder if any of you
could share what you are doing to treat your waste water?
One of the things that make it a little complicated for me is that we use two
diferent cleaning systems here. I've got an Electrovert H500 that uses only
DI water for our water soluble residues, and then I've got an Electrovert
MCS-1000 that uses DI water and Kyzen Aquanox XJN to clean our RMA residues.
If it wasn't for that, I would think about close-looping everything, but the
Kyzen would kill the resin beds.
I've looked at a system that uses what's called reactant powder in a
flocculation process to remove all contaminates, and was told that I could
either reuse the treated water and go back into my DI system, effectively
close-looping things, or go directly to drain. But we're talking big bucks
for this system, $ 65,000 - 80,000. Then there's also the cost of the
reactant powder...anywhere from 3 - 6 cents a gallon to treat the water.
Just asking for some other ideas of what others do with their water, and what
else I could do before going to drain with it.
As always, thanks a million!
-Steve Gregory-
--part1_134.3387bda.2900553f_boundary
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Hi all,
<BR>
<BR>I'm looking into waste water treatment systems now, and wonder if any of you could share what you are doing to treat your waste water?
<BR>
<BR>One of the things that make it a little complicated for me is that we use two diferent cleaning systems here. I've got an Electrovert H500 that uses only DI water for our water soluble residues, and then I've got an Electrovert MCS-1000 that uses DI water and Kyzen Aquanox XJN to clean our RMA residues. If it wasn't for that, I would think about close-looping everything, but the Kyzen would kill the resin beds.
<BR>
<BR>I've looked at a system that uses what's called reactant powder in a flocculation process to remove all contaminates, and was told that I could either reuse the treated water and go back into my DI system, effectively close-looping things, or go directly to drain. But we're talking big bucks for this system, $ 65,000 - 80,000. Then there's also the cost of the reactant powder...anywhere from 3 - 6 cents a gallon to treat the water.
<BR>
<BR>Just asking for some other ideas of what others do with their water, and what else I could do before going to drain with it.
<BR>
<BR>As always, thanks a million!
<BR>
<BR>-Steve Gregory- </FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>
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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 12:16:32 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: bbarr <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: PCB depanelling
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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I think I know what you mean. If it's what I am thinking of, I have one at
home I use for light sheet metal work. Go to the following Techni-Tool page,
search on 'nibbler' and three models will show up. You can then click on the
part numbers for pictures. Hope this helps.
https://webvia.techni-tool.com/via4/index.html
Bob
Robert Barr
Manufacturing Engineering
Formation, Inc.
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Stephen Brown
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 10:55 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] PCB depanelling
People.
Many years ago when I worked on a manufacturing line we used to use a
small hand held "nibbler" for cutting through breakout tabs on PCB
assemblies. I've looked all through the RS and Farnell catalogues and
can't find this tool anywhere. Do any of you have recollections of such
a tool and if so where can I get one from.
Regards.
Steve Brown.
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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 09:30:31 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Ken Patel <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: interWAVE Communications, Inc.
Subject: Solder mask opening...
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All,
If we want to add openings in the solder mask for probing 50 ohm lines
to measure DC bias levels during ICT, do we need to add a test point to
the netlist to make this work? We would prefer not.
Any help will be greatly appreciated.
Re,
Ken Patel
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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 12:44:41 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Hinners Hans M Civ WRALC/LUGE <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Reject Marking
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hey Ken,
You'd think x-outs would be a no-brainer but Mr. Murphy frequently visits
the shop floor.
Relocate the stamped X to the panel boarder (seems it would only work well
on low count panels - 2-up or 4-up).
Use a permanent marker sparingly (2 X's 1 - front & 1 - back. Make sure the
ink can't wash off in any of the downstream steps and doesn't contaminate
baths (plating, developer, stripper, etc.). Photoresist pens would work but
I'm not sure they would be worth the expense. Why operators feel the need
to completely paint a board is beyond me. <it's fun - Hans>.
I've seen small holes punched out - for x-outs and cross-sections. This can
cause additional downstream process problems - photoresist chips in Imaging
(causing opens & shorts), broken drill bits.
If it is a two or four up I've also seen corners clipped.
Personally, I've hand stamped the frames (with x & y coordinates) but that
was for engineering stuff not production.
If the X-out is on the panel's boarder then the Route guys & gals have to be
on their toes - otherwise you'll pass bad boards to Test/Final Inspect.
Hans
Integrity First - Service Before Self - Excellence in All We Do
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hans M. Hinners
Electronics Engineer
Warner Robins - Air Logistics Center (WR-ALC/LUGE)
Special Operations Forces System Program Office (SOF - SPO)
Gunship Team
226 Cochran Street
Robins AFB GA 31098-1622
mailto:[log in to unmask]
Com: (478) 926 - 5224
Fax: (478) 926 - 4911
DSN Prefix: 468
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Hafften [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 9:30 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Reject Marking
Presently we identify rejected parts on multiple up panels after lamination
by using an "X" made with a metal stamp. This stamped "X" creates other
problems during the subsequent circuit board manufacturing process steps
such as an uneven surface for imaging. Does anyone have another method for
marking rejects at lamination.
Thanks in advance for any assistance.
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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 12:39:26 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Marsico, James" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Vapor Phase Soldering material
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Brian,=20
I'm getting conflicting comments from someone from 3M who is claiming =
that
Fluorinert will decompose at temperatures of 200C and above and this is =
not
a good thing in the presence of water (usually available as moisture in =
the
air). Any comments?
Jim Marsico
Senior Engineer
Production Engineering
EDO Electronics Systems Group
[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>=20
631-595-5879
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Ellis [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 2:38 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Vapor Phase Soldering material
Back in the days? Vapour-phase soldering is still done! The great
advantages of perfluorocarbons over other halocarbons are that a)
they
are chemically extremely stable because the C-F covalent bond
requires
much energy to break them; b) they are virtually non-toxic (for the
same
reason: they do not break down in the body). In fact they can be
used to
replace blood in the body for short periods as they do allow oxygen
to
be dissolved and some "sportsmen" have even injected PFCs into the
bloodstream to improve their endurance performance by a higher
oxygenation; c) they are very inert chemically; d) they withstand
high
temperatures; e) they are NOT ozone-depleting. Teflon is a solid
PFC.
The disadvantages are a) that they are very expensive; b) they are
EXTREMELY global-warming (typically 1 kg of PFC is equivalent to 10
tonnes of carbon dioxide which is roughly equivalent to half the
emissions of a medium car during its lifetime); c) their stability
(~10,000 years atmospheric residence time) is such that end-of-life
disposal is very difficult and costly.
The fluids, be they pure PFCs or PFEs, used for soldering are
sufficiently stable at 210 - 260=B0C that there is little significant
decomposition. Water hardly enters into the equation because it is
boiled off instantaneously, even if there be some condensation on
the
cooling coils. Theoretically, there may be some hydrogen fluoride
generated (no hydrofluoric acid), but I believe that the quantities
would be really negligible, in practice. With the presence of other
organics from the flux residues, I would personally be more
concerned
with trifluoroacetic acid, another nasty, but I have not heard of
any
cases. Carbonyl fluoride is also not to be excluded, also very
toxic.
There is another fluoro-compound, whose name escapes me for the
moment,
which did cause some concern in the early days, which is toxic in
the
ppb range. However, in practice, I have never heard of any of these
toxic substances being present in sufficient quantity to be of
practical
concern.
The real crunch comes when there is a secondary blanket, used in the
early days to reduce losses of the primary fluid. This was initially
always a pure CFC-113 (e.g., Freon TF, Arklone P etc.). Later,
because
of the ozone depletion potential of CFC-113 being as high as 0.8, a
lower BP PFC was also proposed. CFC-113 does decompose at the vapour
temperature of the primary fluid, so that the interface zone between
the
two vapours was always a hotbed of chemical reactions. This
certainly
produced, especially in the presence of water, whose BP was higher
than
that of the secondary fluid, a whole panoply of acids and other
toxic
substances. For this reason, these machines had both a molecular
sieve
to de-water the condensed vapours, but also a filter to remove the
acids, otherwise the stainless steel tank corroded into holes in a
matter of months. It is possibly this that you are thinking of. The
most
important decomposition product was hydrogen chloride, which becomes
hydrochloric acid in the presence of water, but there was also
phosgene,
hydrogen fluoride, trichloroacetic acid and goodness knows what
else. I
feel reasonably certain (abstraction of any environmental effects),
if
vapour phase soldering with a CFC-113 secondary blanket were
invented
for the first time today, it would never be allowed into a workshop
because of the H&S aspects.
Hope this makes it clear.
Brian
"Marsico, James" wrote:
>
> Back in the days of vapor phase soldering, I seem to recall that
> hydrofluoric acid was a bi-product of the fluorinert mixed with
water, or
> was it the Freon mixed with the fluorinert? Could anyone
elaborate?
>
> Jim Marsico
> Senior Engineer
> Production Engineering
> EDO Electronics Systems Group
> [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> 631-595-5879
>
>
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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 11:25:13 -0600
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Dave Pahlas <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Hole Diameters for ENIG Press-fit
Hello All,
I am working with a customer to determine the optimal finished hole diameter
for press-fit connectors in a Gold finish PCB. The supplier's data sheet for
the connector specifies .024"+/-.002" HASL plated holes. We have learned
from experience that the connector insertion success rate is greatly
improved when using a slightly larger hole on a gold finish PCB since it is
less compliant with the connector pins then the soft HASL.
So far, the supplier has not given a recommendation on the diameter for
gold, so I am looking for other industry standards to validate our findings.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Dave Pahlas
Mfg Engineer
(208) 898-1072
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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 13:43:12 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: David Fish <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Book Review - Coombs "Printed Circuit Handbook"
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Title: Printed Circuit Handbook
Author(s): Clyde M. Coombs, Editor
Publisher: McGraw-Hill Professional Publishing
Date Published: August 2001
Edition: Fifth
Pages: 1200
ISBN: 0071350160
If the building were on fire, on the way out the door, I'd grab the picture
of my wife from my desk and from the bookshelf my copies of Coombs' "Printed
Circuit Handbook" and Kline-Wassink's "Soldering In Electronics".
The "Printed Circuits Handbook" is THE printed circuit answer book,
resolving more workaday questions than any other single source in
electronics, covering the fundamentals of printed circuit design,
fabrication, assembly, test, and quality. Top contributors from Motorola,
Cisco, Compaq, Agilent, Hewlett-Packard, and other major companies have
authored chapters.
This handbook does everything correct. Even with almost 50 chapter authors,
the book refers to material in other chapters, has minimal repetition
between chapters, is well written and edited, and contains a comprehensive
glossary and an index that is useful. AND it includes a CD-ROM with the
entire book in searchable format [although only one chapter at a time],
which is very cool, because when you need an answer, there are few things
more frustrating than being unable to find the answer that you KNOW is in
the book.
As the reader would expect by the time a book reaches this level of
refinement, improvements to the "Printed Circuits Handbook", which is an
outstanding book, are incremental. Owners of the fourth edition should
determine if the improved chapter-to-chapter flow, the rewritten and focused
chapters, and the updated and expanded content of this edition suit their
needs.
The book contains 60 chapters grouped in the following ten sections:
Section 1: "Introduction To Printed Circuits" introduces electronic
packaging and high-density interconnect, semiconductor packaging, advanced
packaging [i.e., SOP/SOC, MCM, etc.], and the types of printed wiring
boards.
Section 2: "Materials" discusses base materials and their components,
fabrication processes, and properties; issues of increasing densities;
properties of base materials that require qualification; HDI microvia
materials; and laminate qualification and testing.
Section 3: "Engineering And Design" overviews physical characteristics of
PCB; design process; electrical and mechanical design parameters; controlled
impedance; multilayer design considerations; and manufacturing issues of
planning, information requirements, and contract assembly.
Section 4: "High-Density Interconnect" covers HDI generally and the
specifics of build-up and microvia technologies.
Section 5: "Fabrication Processes" focuses on drilling, imaging, plating
[i.e., electroplating, direct plating, electroless copper], etching and
resists, machining, and testing of bare boards.
Section 6: "Assembly" concentrates on the production processes for printed
circuit assemblies.
Section 7: "Soldering" addresses design for soldering and solderability,
solder materials and processes, no-clean assembly process, lead-free
soldering, fluxes and cleaning, and press-fit connections.
Section 8: "Quality Control And Reliability" describes acceptability of
fabricated boards and assemblies, assembly inspection, design for testing,
loaded board testing, and printed circuit assembly and component-to-PWB
reliability.
Section 9: "Environmental Issues And Waste Treatment" reviews the changing
environment for process waste minimization and treatment for board
fabricators.
Section 10: "Flexible Circuits" outlines applications and materials, design,
manufacturing, termination, special constructions, and quality assurance of
flexible circuits
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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 19:38:52 +0100
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: gfalconer <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Resin recession
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Hi All,
Can anyone tell me the difference between resin recession and holewall
pull away of the copper barrel from the holewall? What can cause these
conditions to occur? What can be done to prevent them? And should boards
with either present be rejected?
Regards
Gordon
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Hi All,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Can anyone tell me the difference between resin =
recession
and holewall pull away of the copper barrel from the holewall? <span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0</span>What can cause these conditions to =
occur? What
can be done to prevent them? And should boards with either present be =
rejected?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Regards<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0</span>Gordon =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 15:01:42 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Randy Brooks <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: What Causes Dlamination
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Multilayer delamination after SMT (FR-4 material)
Can anyone give me what are the most common cause(s) for delamination of
multilayer boards.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 18:48:08 -0400
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Bogert <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Seeking info on cleaning PWAs with soldered BGAs using ultrasonics
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10/18/2001
Anyone out there have any information on using ultrasonics for cleaning =
of a daughter-board PWA that has BGA soldered in place. I recall in the =
old military days, ultrasonic cleaning was a no-no because of fear of =
destroying electrical bonds within individual parts. I know times have =
changed and some folks allow use of ultrasonics. J-STD-001 allows it =
subject to the supplier proving documentation that there will be no =
mechanical damage or electrical problems. What ultrasonic cleaning =
process paramaters do we need to control? Any specific process details =
would be appreciated. Any good technical reference documents would also =
help. Please respond to Les Bogert [log in to unmask]
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>10/18/2001</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Anyone out there have any information =
on using=20
ultrasonics for cleaning of a daughter-board PWA that has BGA soldered =
in=20
place. I recall in the old military days, ultrasonic cleaning was =
a no-no=20
because of fear of destroying electrical bonds within individual=20
parts. I know times have changed and some folks allow use of=20
ultrasonics. J-STD-001 allows it subject to the supplier proving=20
documentation that there will be no mechanical damage or electrical=20
problems. What ultrasonic cleaning process paramaters do we need =
to=20
control? Any specific process details would be appreciated. =
Any good=20
technical reference documents would also help. Please respond to =
Les=20
Bogert <A=20
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 19:04:42 -0700
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Sherry Goodell <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: HASL Plating Thickness
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The Chapter 30 is also available at www.huggroup.org and the transfer times
should be much faster. There is additional capability information there as
well.
----- Original Message -----
From: "d. terstegge" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 7:43 AM
Subject: Re: [TN] HASL Plating Thickness
Even better: you don't have to buy the book, as this chapter 30 is available
on-line at http://people.ne.mediaone.net/sgoodell/chapter30/ch30.html
Daan Terstegge
SMT Centre
Thales Communications
Unclassified mail
Personal Website: http://www.smtinfo.net
>>> Frank Davies <[log in to unmask]> 10/18 2:14 pm >>>
-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher Lampron <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Thursday, October 18, 2001 11:31 AM
Subject: [TN] HASL Plating Thickness
------------------
Christopher
You may look at Chapter 30 of Printed Circuits Materials Handbook
HOT AIR LEVELING
Sherry Goodell
Teledyne Electronic Technologies, Halco
Londonderry, New Hampshire
Frank
----------------------------------
>Hello All,
>
>Is there any specification regarding the max thickness of HASL plated
>PCB's. We have recently received a lot of boards where the HASL plating on
>the fine pitch device exceeds 3.5 mils. He have an extensive amount of
>bridging on these devices now. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
>
>Thanks
>
>Christopher Lampron
>
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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 18:06:10 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: Jack Crawford <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Info about IPC email forums
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properly handle MIME multipart messages.
--=_98C26164.8EEF8B5E
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This is an advisory message of just some of the current FREE peer-to-peer =
forums provided by your IPC. For information on how to sign on and for =
options, go to http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm If you have any =
questions please contact me personnally off-net: [log in to unmask]
Cordially,
Jack Crawford
Director of Assembly Standards and Technology
TechNet=20
This peer networking forum can be used to ask others for technical help, =
comments or questions on IPC specifications, or other technical inquiries. =
IPC will also use TechNet to announce meetings, important technical =
issues, surveys, etc. As a general networking forum, any technical =
question is fair game.=20
Discussion of pricing is not appropriate for TechNet. Requests for =
recommendations of products or suppliers are appropriate when responses =
are sent to the individual requesting the information only and not to the =
entire TechNet forum.=20
Leadfree
Lead elimination is a fast emerging topic in the PWB industry. Pressure =
from Japan and Europe is forcing US companies to react fast and prepare =
for the transition. This forum acts as a peer interaction resource for =
staying on top of lead elimination activities worldwide and within IPC, =
including updates on the IPCWorks99 conference and lead elimination =
roadmap. A separate IPC forum (NoLeadTech) is available to exchange =
research and implementation technical data derived from research experiment=
s. (See additional info on ComplianceNet)
NoLeadTech
Electronic manufacturing utilizing lead-free processes is beginning to =
mature but there are still implementation issues to be resolved. This =
forum acts as a peer interaction resource to make technical inquiries and =
to exchange research and implementation TECHNICAL DATA derived from =
research experiments. A separate IPC forum (Leadfree) is available for =
discussion of legislative, environmental and philosophical issues related =
to lead-free policies.
Halogenfree
The green monster has struck again, as materials suppliers and PWB =
fabricators are receiving OEM requirements for environmentally friendly =
base materials, soldermask and components. The OEM-targeted materials =
include bromine, halogen, halide and chlorine.
Materials suppliers are now left with the questions: What particle count =
determines halogen-free, bromine-free, etc.? Will the alternative =
materials guarantee the same reliability? Why are we doing this?=20
This email forum serves a basis for peer interaction on the issue. =
Subscribers to the forum from all over the world can discuss the issues, =
dispel the myths and help each other in making the transition to these =
green materials a smooth ride. This forum will also be the basis for =
updates on a white paper being developed by the IPC Halogen-Free Materials =
Task Group.
ComplianceNet
The ComplianceNet forum covers environmental, safety and related regulation=
s or issues. In addition to giving you a forum for exchanging information =
with your colleagues and IPC staff, and getting information you need to do =
your jobs today, IPC will provide the following information on ComplianceNe=
t:=20
Regulatory proposals, alerts and draft comments=20
Legislative updates=20
New regulatory interpretations (i.e., photoresist skins)=20
Grass roots action alerts=20
Compliance assistance
IPC_New_Releases
Provides notification to subscribers when new and revised IPC publications =
are available. Please note: This forum is for broadcast only, and not for =
posting messages. The same subscription instructions apply.
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<BODY style=3D"MARGIN-TOP: 2px; FONT: 8pt MS Sans Serif; MARGIN-LEFT: =
2px">
<DIV>This is an advisory message of just some of the current FREE =
peer-to-peer=20
forums provided by your IPC. For information on how to sign on and for =
options,=20
go to <A=20
href=3D"http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm">http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.ht=
m</A> =20
If you have any questions please contact me personnally off-net: =
<A=20
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Cordially,</DIV>
<DIV>Jack Crawford</DIV>
<DIV>Director of Assembly Standards and Technology</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> TechNet <BR>This peer networking forum can =
be used=20
to ask others for technical help, comments or questions on IPC specificatio=
ns,=20
or other technical inquiries. IPC will also use TechNet to announce =
meetings,=20
important technical issues, surveys, etc. As a general networking forum, =
any=20
technical question is fair game. <BR>Discussion of pricing is not =
appropriate=20
for TechNet. Requests for recommendations of products or suppliers are=20
appropriate when responses are sent to the individual requesting the =
information=20
only and not to the entire TechNet forum. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> Leadfree<BR>Lead elimination is a fast =
emerging=20
topic in the PWB industry. Pressure from Japan and Europe is forcing US=20
companies to react fast and prepare for the transition. This forum acts as =
a=20
peer interaction resource for staying on top of lead elimination activities=
=20
worldwide and within IPC, including updates on the IPCWorks99 conference =
and=20
lead elimination roadmap. A separate IPC forum (NoLeadTech) is available =
to=20
exchange research and implementation technical data derived from =
research=20
experiments. (See additional info on ComplianceNet)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 20:21:37 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Stephen R. Gregory" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Seeking info on cleaning PWAs with soldered BGAs using
ultrasonics
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Hi Bogert,
I would call and talk to someone at CAE Ultrasonics, I feel they have been
one of the industry leaders in developing safe ultrasonic cleaning for
electronics. Go to:
http://www.caeultrasonics.com/
Another company that has been actively producing systems to clean electronic
assemblies is Crest Ultrasonics. Go to:
http://www.crest-ultrasonics.com/home.html
I think it's like you said, back in the past, ultrasonic cleaning was
discouraged, and for good reason back then. Most ultrasonic transducers
produced the ultrasonic energy at lower frequencies and stayed at a single
frequency. Lower frequencies generate larger cavitation bubbles and excite a
part into resonance which causes the damage that everyone worried about.
Nowdays, the technology has advanced far from what it was years ago, and
transducers are made to transmit ultrasonic energy at the higher frequencies,
and with what is called non-uniform sweep rates that vary the frequencies
slightly so that resonances can't form and so that there won't be "Hot spots"
forming in certain areas of the cleaning tanks..ie: corners,etc.
Here's another link that you're probably familiar with, of the IPC-TM-650
test to determine the sensitivity of electronic assemblies to ultrasonic
cleaning, that personally, I think is a hold-over from the old days when
ultrasonics (at the time) wasn't a good thing:
http://www.ipc.org/html/2.6.9.1.pdf
I work at a contract assembly company, and have tried to feel out some of our
customers as to what their opnions are regarding ultrasonic cleaning, and
it's a tough sell...even with all the advancements that have been made with
the technology. Being able to use ultrasonics would solve a lot of issues
that I (we) face in cleaning, and I feel would provide superior results to
many methods and chemistries that are in place now...but you have to change a
lot of perceptions that were set in stone years ago.
I really think there's a lot of misplaced concern with the technology as it
stands currently...but that's only my opinion.
-Steve Gregory-
> 10/18/2001
>
> Anyone out there have any information on using ultrasonics for cleaning of
> a daughter-board PWA that has BGA soldered in place. I recall in the old
> military days, ultrasonic cleaning was a no-no because of fear of
> destroying electrical bonds within individual parts. I know times have
> changed and some folks allow use of ultrasonics. J-STD-001 allows it
> subject to the supplier proving documentation that there will be no
> mechanical damage or electrical problems. What ultrasonic cleaning process
> paramaters do we need to control? Any specific process details would be
> appreciated. Any good technical reference documents would also help.
> Please respond to Les Bogert <A HREF="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>.
>
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>Hi Bogert,
<BR>
<BR>I would call and talk to someone at CAE Ultrasonics, I feel they have been one of the industry leaders in developing safe ultrasonic cleaning for electronics. Go to:
<BR>
<BR>http://www.caeultrasonics.com/
<BR>
<BR>Another company that has been actively producing systems to clean electronic assemblies is Crest Ultrasonics. Go to:
<BR>
<BR>http://www.crest-ultrasonics.com/home.html
<BR>
<BR>I think it's like you said, back in the past, ultrasonic cleaning was discouraged, and for good reason back then. Most ultrasonic transducers produced the ultrasonic energy at lower frequencies and stayed at a single frequency. Lower frequencies generate larger cavitation bubbles and excite a part into resonance which causes the damage that everyone worried about.
<BR>
<BR>Nowdays, the technology has advanced far from what it was years ago, and transducers are made to transmit ultrasonic energy at the higher frequencies, and with what is called non-uniform sweep rates that vary the frequencies slightly so that resonances can't form and so that there won't be "Hot spots" forming in certain areas of the cleaning tanks..ie: corners,etc.
<BR>
<BR>Here's another link that you're probably familiar with, of the IPC-TM-650 test to determine the sensitivity of electronic assemblies to ultrasonic cleaning, that personally, I think is a hold-over from the old days when ultrasonics (at the time) wasn't a good thing:
<BR>
<BR>http://www.ipc.org/html/2.6.9.1.pdf
<BR>
<BR>I work at a contract assembly company, and have tried to feel out some of our customers as to what their opnions are regarding ultrasonic cleaning, and it's a tough sell...even with all the advancements that have been made with the technology. Being able to use ultrasonics would solve a lot of issues that I (we) face in cleaning, and I feel would provide superior results to many methods and chemistries that are in place now...but you have to change a lot of perceptions that were set in stone years ago.
<BR>
<BR>I really think there's a lot of misplaced concern with the technology as it stands currently...but that's only my opinion.
<BR>
<BR>-Steve Gregory-
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">10/18/2001
<BR>
<BR>Anyone out there have any information on using ultrasonics for cleaning of a daughter-board PWA that has BGA soldered in place. I recall in the old military days, ultrasonic cleaning was a no-no because of fear of destroying electrical bonds within individual parts. I know times have changed and some folks allow use of ultrasonics. J-STD-001 allows it subject to the supplier proving documentation that there will be no mechanical damage or electrical problems. What ultrasonic cleaning process paramaters do we need to control? Any specific process details would be appreciated. Any good technical reference documents would also help. Please respond to Les Bogert <A HREF="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>.
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>
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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 21:08:43 EDT
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Stephen R. Gregory" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Internal Damage to Capacitor
X-To: [log in to unmask]
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Hi all!
Alejandro Becerra sent me an email asking to post some pictures for him, and
the following message that I've pasted below. Go to:
http://www.stevezeva.homestead.com
Read his question and check out his images...
-Steve Gregory-
In a message dated 10/18/2001 5:57:21 PM Central Daylight Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
>
> I've read that it is possible to load pictures to your web page. Please let
> me know if you can get them to your page because I have a question to the
> forum.
>
>
> We have a failure due to a leakage in one ceramic chip capacitor. Cross
> section showed that the a damage in the capacitor. The damage has a
> elliptical shape and it is longitudinal to the length of the capacitor.
> I've seen Thermal Shock damage in this direction. Is it possible to be a
> Thermal Shock Failure or it could be a pre-existent void in the capacitor?
> Thanks,
> Alejandro Becerra
>
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Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>Hi all!
<BR>
<BR>Alejandro Becerra sent me an email asking to post some pictures for him, and the following message that I've pasted below. Go to:
<BR>
<BR>http://www.stevezeva.homestead.com
<BR>
<BR>Read his question and check out his images...
<BR>
<BR>-Steve Gregory-
<BR>
<BR>In a message dated 10/18/2001 5:57:21 PM Central Daylight Time, [log in to unmask] writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Steve, </BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I've read that it is possible to load pictures to your web page. Please let me know if you can get them to your page because I have a question to the forum.
<BR>
<BR>The problem is the following:</BLOCKQUOTE> </FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">We have a failure due to a leakage in one ceramic chip capacitor. Cross section showed that the a damage in the capacitor. The damage has a elliptical shape and it is longitudinal to the length of the capacitor.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I've seen Thermal Shock damage in this direction. Is it possible to be a Thermal Shock Failure or it could be a pre-existent void in the capacitor?</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Thanks,
<BR>Alejandro Becerra
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>
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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 20:05:52 -0500
Reply-To: "TechNet E-Mail Forum." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Steffen, Don E" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: What Causes Dlamination
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