Shame James, I've found, over the years, at least four test guys that actually talk to, or are included in, DFM folks/meetings. Sometimes, it is required that these people leave their hot/cold tools at home for repairs, or other fun things, there. Often, in anti-manufacturing environments (most everywhere), test folks are encouraged to point fingers at design and manufacturing types while providing evidence via neandrathal (spelling please - so I know if I am one). Damn shame James. MoonMan --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt delivery of Technet send the following message: SET Technet NOMAIL Search previous postings at: www.ipc.org > On-Line Resources & Databases > E-mail Archives Please visit IPC web site (http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm) for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-509-9700 ext.5315 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------