Brian, Thanks for the explanation and the scientific analysis. I have only read articles and done some unscientific observation. I what started this thread off was my wondering if anyone had really tried this. You have. You have results. Thanks. \----------------------\ \ Kenneth G. Stephens \ \ President \ CAD--->CAD 2 CAM, Inc. >---CAM / www.cad2cam.com / / 503-246-4692 / /----------------------/ > -----Original Message----- > From: Brian Ellis [mailto:[log in to unmask]] > Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2000 12:51 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Cc: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: [TN] PWB CLEANING SOLVENTS > > > Kenneth > > Sorry, your explanation, interesting though it may be, does not > really hold the water > it is supposed to improve. If you wish to shorten the chain > length, it would be much > more energy-efficient to heat it. At low frequencies, the > Debye-Falkenhagen effect > would cause the entire molecule clumps to turn, but there would > never be enough energy > imparted into DI water to break down the adjacent polar H-O bonds > between the > individual molecules. At high frequencies, this might happen, but > the resultant energy > absorption would simply be translated into heat and, as I said, > the status quo would be > restored as soon as the water passed out from the magnetic field. > > I agree with what Mike has to say. One of my aqueous cleaning > customers was taken in by > one of these magnetic rip-off artists. He swore that the circuits > were cleaner as a > result, the final rinse being done in the "treated" water. > Inevitably he had problems, > which were obviously due to our machines and not the water > quality, by his light. > Finally, I had the "before" and "after" water analysed by an > independent lab, at my > expense, and the two samples were rigourously identical to the > nearest mg/l. Only then > did he install a mixed bed DI column and thus cured his problems. > > Sorry, I am still sceptical. > > Brian > > Kenneth Stephens wrote: > > > Brian, > > > > Liquid water has a complex structure. The water molecule is bipolar in > > nature and thus creates columbic bonds( the positive hydrogen > atoms in the > > molecule give one end of the molecule a positive charge). These bonds > > create chains of water molecules that reduce the active bonding points > > available to grab other substances into solution. The length of these > > chains is proportional to the temperature of the water. This > effect causes > > ice to float. Liquid water is densest about 4 degrees > Centigrade because > > the order created by these chains is the greatest. Below this > temperature > > water starts to crystallize. Above this temperature the chains > get shorter. > > The chains get shorter the higher the temperature of the water, until at > > boiling( liquid to gas transition) the chain is down to a > single molecule. > > > > The alternating magnetic field breaks up these chains to reveal more > > columbic bonding locations so that the liquid water actually > has a higher > > solubility activity. > > > > Ken Stephens > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Brian Ellis [mailto:[log in to unmask]] > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2000 12:25 AM > > > To: [log in to unmask] > > > Cc: [log in to unmask] > > > Subject: Re: [TN] PWB CLEANING SOLVENTS > > > > > > > > > Kenneth > > > > > > I am very sceptical of this. The only effect I could see it > > > having would be to heat the > > > water somewhat, depending on the energy consumed, through eddy > > > currents. If the > > > frequency were high enough, it is conceivable that the > > > equilibrium of H+ and OH- ions > > > may be increased, which may make the water, when actually in the > > > magnetic field, more > > > reactive, but it would return to normal within milliseconds as > > > soon as the water left > > > the magnetic field. I think I would class this pretty much in the > > > same category as > > > placing magnets round a copper pipe to prevent lime scale > from forming! > > > > > > If anyone has further details to allay my scepticism, I would > > > welcome them. > > > > > > Brian > > > > > > Kenneth Stephens wrote: > > > > > > > Has anyone tried adding a stage to their DI water where it > > > passes through a > > > > strong alternating magnetic field? This process would increase the > > > > solubility of the water. I read some reports in the early > 1980s where > > > > Soviet Pulp Mills were using this process to remove scale in > > > their tanks. > > > > > > > > Just a wonderment. > > > > > > > > \----------------------\ > > > > \ Kenneth G. Stephens \ > > > > \ President \ > > > > CAD--->CAD 2 CAM, Inc. >---CAM > > > > / www.cad2cam.com / > > > > / 503-246-4692 / > > > > /----------------------/ > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Pat Kane > > > > > Sent: Monday, February 14, 2000 5:48 AM > > > > > To: [log in to unmask] > > > > > Subject: Re: [TN] PWB CLEANING SOLVENTS > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Douglas > > > > > > > > > > Our evaluations of cleaning OA fluxes with DI water only, has > > > shown that > > > > > there are still corrosive residual levels of contaminants > left on the > > > > > surfaces of the PCB. These corrosive residues have direct > > > impact on field > > > > > performance of your product. When the DI water is heated, > > > the levels do > > > > > decrease slightly but the residues are still present at > > > levels that pose a > > > > > risk of electromigration and field failures. The addition of > > > a saponifier > > > > > substantially reduces the residues to acceptable levels. > > > Many people have > > > > > added heating systems to the DI water and attempted to > eliminate the > > > > > saponifier as a cost reducing measure, only to find the resulting > > > > > cleanliness > > > > > levels are too high and the product is at risk for field failure. > > > > > > > > > > Generally, we recommend a customer evaluate the cleaning > process by > > > > > performing a baseline assessment of their current activity before > > > > > any changes > > > > > are made in the cleaning process or flux selection. This gives a > > > > > reference > > > > > point to evaluate the impact of subsequent changes. > Evaluations with > > > > > customers have shown that the combination of hot DI water in > > > addition to > > > > > using a saponifier have proven to be the best at removing > > > > > processing residues > > > > > to acceptable levels. Subsequent evaluation can be made at > > > this point to > > > > > determine the concentration level of saponifier required in your > > > > > process to > > > > > achieve adequate cleaning. > > > > > > > > > > Hope this helps. If you need more information, please > > > contact me off line > > > > > for more information. > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Pat Kane > > > > > Technical Sales Manager > > > > > Contamination Studies Laboratories > > > > > 765-457-8095 > > > > > > > > > > ############################################################## > > > > > TechNet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using > > > LISTSERV 1.8c > > > > > ############################################################## > > > > > To subscribe/unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with > > > > > following text in > > > > > the body: > > > > > To subscribe: SUBSCRIBE TECHNET <your full name> > > > > > To unsubscribe: SIGNOFF TECHNET > > > > > ############################################################## > > > > > Please visit IPC web site (http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm) for > > > > > additional > > > > > information. > > > > > If you need assistance - contact Gayatri Sardeshpande at > > > [log in to unmask] or > > > > > 847-509-9700 ext.5365 > > > > > ############################################################## > > > > > > > > > > > > > ############################################################## > > > > TechNet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using > LISTSERV 1.8c > > > > ############################################################## > > > > To subscribe/unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] > > > with following text in > > > > the body: > > > > To subscribe: SUBSCRIBE TECHNET <your full name> > > > > To unsubscribe: SIGNOFF TECHNET > > > > ############################################################## > > > > Please visit IPC web site (http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm) > > > for additional > > > > information. > > > > If you need assistance - contact Gayatri Sardeshpande at > > > [log in to unmask] or > > > > 847-509-9700 ext.5365 > > > > ############################################################## > > > > > > -- > > > Brian Ellis > > > Protonique SA > > > PO Box 78 > > > CH-1032 Romanel-sur-Lausanne, Switzerland > > > Voice: +41 21-648 23 34 Fax: +41 21-648 24 11 > > > E-mail: [log in to unmask] > > > URL: Technical and consultancy divisions: > > > http://www.protonique.com > > > Web services division: > > > http://www.protonique.com/webserv > > > > > > > > > > ############################################################## > > TechNet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8c > > ############################################################## > > To subscribe/unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] > with following text in > > the body: > > To subscribe: SUBSCRIBE TECHNET <your full name> > > To unsubscribe: SIGNOFF TECHNET > > ############################################################## > > Please visit IPC web site (http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm) > for additional > > information. > > If you need assistance - contact Gayatri Sardeshpande at > [log in to unmask] or > > 847-509-9700 ext.5365 > > ############################################################## > > -- > Brian Ellis > Protonique SA > PO Box 78 > CH-1032 Romanel-sur-Lausanne, Switzerland > Voice: +41 21-648 23 34 Fax: +41 21-648 24 11 > E-mail: [log in to unmask] > URL: Technical and consultancy divisions: > http://www.protonique.com > Web services division: > http://www.protonique.com/webserv > > ############################################################## TechNet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8c ############################################################## To subscribe/unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the body: To subscribe: SUBSCRIBE TECHNET <your full name> To unsubscribe: SIGNOFF TECHNET ############################################################## Please visit IPC web site (http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm) for additional information. If you need assistance - contact Gayatri Sardeshpande at [log in to unmask] or 847-509-9700 ext.5365 ##############################################################