Neil Maloney said: > What used? We bought that machine BRAND-NEW in December,1995! Six months >after we purchased it, Mydata (the people we bought it from) told us that >the $120,000.00 machine we just bought needed a $30,000.00 upgrade. It >turned out that we bought the LAST machine made of that model. They didn't >tell us that when we bought it. They just smiled and took our check. > Since then, service from the factory has been poor and overpriced. There >is no service tech in my area, and if I should need one, he has to be "flown >in from Boston." (At our expense!) As an added plus, very few of their techs >are familiar with the operating system on a machine that is a little over >four years old and has a little over 5,000 hours on it. The last tech they >sent me (at $1,600.00) was clueless as to our Mydata operating system. > Three years ago, I had a $.05 retaining washer go bad in the Mydata's >vacuum pump, for which Mydata could only sell me a $1055.00 vacuum pump. >After numerous phone calls and e-mails over a period of two months(Finally I >had to contact Brian Duffy, Mydata's corporate President) they sent me the >wrong washer for free. In the meantime, the $.05 washer I bought at the >local hardware store has fit the bill just fine. > I firmly believe that I should be able to receive better service from >outside Mydata. There are many people that feel the same way. I just want to >work together with them and maybe do it a better way. > If you want to defend Mydata (or anybody else, for that matter) perhaps >you should find out a little more about how the end-users have to deal with >the machines and the service departments. > The only chance I took was from taking the word of an OEM as "gospel". I hear you, Neil. There is a tendency for equipment manufacturers to treat machines more than a few years old as though they were antiques. This is not unique to Mydata. I believe this is because most of the field service people are dedicated to solving issues with the newer in-warranty equipment. Problems with older equipment are relegated to certain technicians who are "experts" on the older machines, and sometimes the tendency is for the technicians to want to deal only with the newer and more exotic equipment. Besides, it is annoying to have to troubleshoot obscure "wear-out" problems. For end users, the reaction is a bit tiresome. We kept Siemens machines nearly ten years old in operation here, but dealing with the factory personnel was sometimes less than pleasant. As you said, Neil, the spares costs can be absurd. We had a +5, +/- 12 V power supply on the vision system go bad, and Siemens' only answer was to sell me the complete VMEbus card cage, p/s, and backplane assembly for some outrageous five digit figure, as they did not stock the necessary closed frame power supply. I have a stock response to this over the phone. When I get the quote, I tell them that I will need to call the local police first, could they please hold. They say, "Police? What do you mean?", whereupon I tell them that rape is illegal in the State of Texas, and I need to report the crime immediately. In the case above, we figured out what the power supply rating was, cut the connecting cables off, deduced what wires were being used for voltage sensing, and simply put in a big honking p/s out of some boatanchor computer laying around the shop. Cost was essentially nothing but a few man-hours of effort from me and a couple of our technicians. There have been numerous times where I have had to get capital approval for some stepper motor, power supply, or servo-amp card for a piece of automation. I believe it is fairly standard practice to mark up these items 10X by the OEM. Sometimes the crafty user will be able to deduce what Omron temp controller, Escap motor, or Festo air cylinder is needed, and save 90% of the cost. Catalogs from some of these industrial controls components can be valuable references. I also note that the cost of importing some fairly common items into the US can get absurd. I once had a Japanese wave soldering machine with a rubberized belt transfer conveyor. The OEM quoted a ridiculous price for a replacement, so I took the Thomas Register, called around, and found a Chicago company who would make a custom rubberized fabric belt, ESD safe, my dimensions - red, green, or black. Their minimum order was like $400, and for that they would give me 3 belts in 3 wks. I called the OEM solder machine parts dept. in California back and offered to sell them one for 1/4 the price they offered me, which would cover the cost of all 3 I ordered. My suggestion to any new equipment buyer: Ask to see a listing of the selling prices on all their spares for the new machine being considered. Make sure you check some things with low MTBF like the drive motors, sensors, belts, board level spares. Pay special attention to any wear-out items. Test whether makes you gag violently turn red-faced upon cursory review. Count to 10, this will be your best chance to complain effectively. I have usually gotten some provision to allow me to buy a list of spares at a big discount from their list within one year of the equipment purchase. One reason for doing it this way is the doubt that one can accurately predict the parts necessary to keep on hand with less than a year's experience. My suggestion to OEM's: Don't treat the customer like a hermit calling for '72 Fiat parts when they wish to keep your five year old placement machine going. We wouldn't be needing spare parts if the machine was new. Most of us also know that stepper motors don't cost $2,500. We know you have customers ready and waiting to pay list price for the newest equipment you offer, and are getting ready to display an even faster and more dazzling machine at NEPCON, but we will tell all our buddies how you treated us if you don't play nice. This is not the best time to suggest replacing the old beater with a new one. General comments about the cost of spares: I understand that it is necessary to add markup to slow moving stock. That's OK. There is great value in providing the on-hand spares, so that the customer does not need to maintain his own stock. This value is considerably diluted if when one calls to order, he is told it must come from overseas...thus adding insult to the affront of being quoted a highly inflated price. My opinions, as usual, to be considered at face value. Void where taxed, prohibited, or subject to authoritative rebuke. cheers, Jerry Cupples Interphase Corporation Dallas, TX USA http://www.iphase.com ############################################################## TechNet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8c ############################################################## To subscribe/unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the body: To subscribe: SUBSCRIBE TECHNET To unsubscribe: SIGNOFF TECHNET ############################################################## Please visit IPC web site (http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm) for additional information. 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