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November 1999

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Subject:
From:
Brian Ellis <[log in to unmask]>
Reply To:
Leadfree Electronics Assembly E-Mail Forum.
Date:
Mon, 8 Nov 1999 17:48:41 +0200
Content-Type:
text/plain
Parts/Attachments:
text/plain (415 lines)
Ron

It was not intended to be insulting, but vested interests should be
declared. If Kay feels insulted, I apologise for perhaps clumsy wording.

I agree that recycling can be expensive, but how can we evaluate the
cost of what we leave for future generations? This might be a helluva
lot more expensive, in the long term, than recycling. Just look at
radioactive waste!

The fact that we extract metals from the ground is a non sequitur and is
certainly no excuse for putting them back there in a different form.
Most metal ores are originally bound in impervious volcanic rock, in a
totally insoluble form, often at very considerable depths. This is a
great cry from disposing of metals, often in soluble form, on the
surface. In the case of lead, it is fairly easily fixed in the top few
centimetres of soil. This is far from the same conditions as in a deep
lead mine (usually as sulfide or carbonate), where a number of other
metals, such as silver, zinc, bismuth, arsenic etc. have transmuted from
the original uranium over the aeons. I agree that tin is different
because major sources are from alluvium as cassiterite, an insoluble tin
oxide. Rivers in the tin-mining regions of Malaysia have very little
dissolved tin in them (but a considerable amount of suspended tin oxide,
especially after a spate). This is not the same as having solder in a
landfill.

I maintain that we owe it to future generations to recycle as many atoms
and molecules as we reasonably can and recycling tin and lead is not
economically the end of the world. Banning lead in solder may well
produce a great increase in costs of producing electronics and their
subsequent reliability, far exceeding the cost of recycling, not to
mention the waste of landfilling a moderately expensive resource, tin.

Best regards

Brian

Ron Gedney wrote:
>
> Brian,
>
> I find your note more than a little insulting. Kay is a professional and
> isn't taking positions based on who pays her salary. If she didn't agree
> with her employer, she could always leave for another job.
>
> Secondly, I think people will find recycling a lot more expensive than
> they realize ... I'm not against it ... who can fight motherhood and
> apple pie??
>
> Thirdly, all of these metals/compounds came out of the ground in the
> first place ... judicious use of knowledge and science should be able to
> provide for a safe return.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian Ellis [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Monday, November 08, 1999 9:47 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [LF] Long-term solutions
>
> Kay
>
> Obviously, you have to protect tin, that is what you are paid for.
> However, would you **willingly** ingest just 5 g of any tin compound,
> organic or inorganic?
>
> I repeat, no-one knows what reactions may occur in a landfill, simply
> because no-one knows what is in water that reaches tin. It MAY be
> perfectly benign, it MAY not. Furthermore, on the average PCB, apart
> from oxidised tin, there are a neat variety of organic acids readily
> available to reduce it!
>
> Going back to the start of this thread: it is my honest belief, ITRI
> notwithstanding, that the presence of all anthropo-sourced metals,
> beyond trace quantities, is undesirable in the environment. Sooner or
> later, as more knowledge is gained, they will probably all be restricted
> therefore they must be recycled to the maximum, tin and lead both. If
> they are recycled, why ban them?
>
> Of course, I understand that the ITRI would prefer otherwise a) because
> they receive their funding from tin production and b) because they would
> prefer that solder contains 95%+ Sn, rather than 63%. I have no vested
> interest in what I say, other than hoping electronics production may
> continue as economically and as easily as possible.
>
> Best regards
>
> Brian
>
> Kay Nimmo wrote:
> >
> > Dear Brian
> >
> > I would just like to clear up some of the points you make on toxicity
> of tin. It is inaccurate to say that many tin compounds are toxic as
> distinction should always be made between organo-tin compounds and all
> other forms of tin. It is also inaccurate to generalise and claim all
> organotins are toxic. The toxicity is not specifically related to the
> tin, but to the nature and number of the organo- groups attached. See
> the paragraph below.
> >
> > As far as the comment on cans is concerned the lacquer coating is in
> fact there to prevent corrosion. In some cases a lacquer coating is
> deliberately not used in order for the tin to dissolve to a small extent
> in the acid food juice and stabilise colour and (apparently) taste. Take
> a look at your cans of tomatoes/beans etc and you will find that they
> are unlacquered, or only partially lacquered.
> >
> > The effect of distribution of tin metal in the environment has been
> well examined. In particular, the US Fish and Wildlife service made an
> extensive study on tin toxicity during approval of tin as lead-free
> shot. Data on the behaviour of tin in soils, water, wildlife, livestock
> and man was examined with tin succesfully passing this stage of the
> approval process.
> >
> > Kay
> > ITRI
> >
> > Organotins: toxicity is related to the precise nature of the
> organo-moiety. Essentially, there are four basic types: mono- (with one
> organic group attached to the tin), di- (with two), tri- (three) and
> tetra- (four). As a generalisation, toxicity is greater for tetra- and
> tri- types than for di-, which in turn is greater than for mono-.
> However, within each type, it is the nature of the organo- groups
> attached to the tin that is important. With regard to mammalian
> toxicity, methyl- and ethyl- groups generally give the highest toxicity,
> whereas larger alkyl groups (e.g butyl-, octyl-) are less toxic to
> mammals, but are often more toxic to other species. For example,
> tributyltin compounds (e.g. TBTO) are particularly toxic to marine
> organisms, and are therefore used in antifouling paints to prevent
> barnacle growth on boat hulls. This is the application that TBTO was
> developed for. However, it is important to note that most of the di- and
> mono- organotin compounds used commerci!
> !
> !
> ally
> > (e.g. in PVC stabilisers, catalysts, tin oxide film precursors) are of
> low toxicity, and some are approved for food contact applications (as in
> PVC packaging). The main message is that it is wrong to generalise and
> say that all organotins (or, indeed, all tin compounds) are toxic.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:   Brian Ellis [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> > Sent:   05 November 1999 10:35
> > To:     [log in to unmask]
> > Subject:        Re: [LF] Long-term solutions
> >
> > I agree, but tin is also a severe issue which has not been
> sufficiently
> > addressed. Many tin compounds are toxic (some organotin compounds are
> > used as wood preservatives, fungicides, algicides etc.). Who knows
> what
> > reactions may occur in a landfill? Anyway, tin is (or at least was)
> not
> > federally regulated in waste water in the USA, although I believe some
> > States may cap it at 5 - 10 ppm. However, in Europe, the levels are
> set,
> > mostly at 1 - 5 ppm (copper at 0,5 - 2 ppm in many countries as a
> > comparison). I won't discuss Malaysia's limit at 0,1 ppm, because this
> > is a special case. Anyway, tin is considered about half as toxic as
> > copper, so don't consider it as being exempt from all future
> regulation.
> > Note that many tin-plate cans for acid foods are now polymer-coated as
> > additional protection against the ingestion of tin salts.
> >
> > I think the crux of the matter is that ALL metals can be shown to be
> > toxic in some form or another. Lead is just a technocrat's buzz-word
> and
> > should not be treated differently from any other metal. When these
> guys
> > cotton on to these facts, all metals will be banned, as will also
> > bromo-bisphenols used for fire-retarding PCB laminates. There is only
> > one logical solution: obligatory recycling of all metals. The sooner
> > this fact is realised, the better: then we can get on with our
> business
> > of soldering boards with tin/lead solders to our heart's content. AND
> I
> > say this as one much and actively concerned with the protection of our
> > environment.
> >
> > Brian
> >
> > "Bernier, Dennis" wrote:
> > >
> > > Though I am not an advocate of rapid changeover to lead-free solder
> alloys
> > > without more reliability testing, I can see the lead-free alloys
> might be a
> > > future environmental problem.  However, the amount of silver and
> copper
> > > combined in the solder will only be about 10% of the amount of lead
> in
> > > Sn63Pb37 solder alloy used now.  This will be a very small amount of
> metal
> > > contamination due to the solder in the electronic product.  It seems
> then
> > > the copper may become the issue because there will be 20-50 times as
> much
> > > copper in the assembly than silver.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Carol Handwerker [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 5:56 AM
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Subject: Re: [LF] Long-term solutions
> > >
> > > In the Assembly Processing group working on the Lead-Free Solder
> Roadmap at
> > > the IPC meeting, the highest priority item from the group was to
> ensure
> > > that the new alloys are viable in the long term from a toxicology
> and
> > > environmental life cycle point of view.  Having to change alloys
> again in
> > > three years would be a waste of resources if we can formulate a
> proper
> > > solution now.
> > >
> > > At 07:06 PM 11/02/1999 -0800, you wrote:
> > > >All,
> > > >
> > > >As I read the debates ongoing, it strikes me that there are 2 major
> focus
> > > >areas right now:
> > > >
> > > >1) Technical solutions to Pb-free solders
> > > >2) Is the decision environmentally correct?
> > > >
> > > >Are we missing a 3rd item?
> > > >
> > > >Regardless of what solder we end up with, how does the industry
> position a
> > > >long term, environmentally sound policy that will forestall future
> green
> > > >initiatives from causing such upsets?
> > > >
> > > >The history of Pb is rife with abuses -- Workers not following safe
> > > >practices, employers not requiring or implementing safe practices,
> emission
> > > >controls not being in place on smelters, ....  This is in addition
> to Pb
> > > >being used without a full understanding of the toxicology and
> exposure
> > > risks
> > > >(Paint, gasoline, plumbing  The point is, past uses (and abuses)
> and
> > > >handling of Pb has created the situation we are in now.
> > > >
> > > >I have not seen/heard any discussion on establishing practices and
> > > protocols
> > > >that will foster responsible use of any solder -- Both safe working
> > > >practices on the production end, and End of Life management. Should
> this be
> > > >part of the overall strategy, or a recommended best known method?
> How does
> > > >this link into product takeback requirements that are gaining
> popularity in
> > > >the EU and Japan?
> > > >
> > > >Regards,
> > > >Paul Wermer
> > > >(Whose opinions are his own and do not necessarily reflect those of
> his
> > > >employer)
> > > >
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> > > >Electronic
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> > > **************************************
> > > Carol A. Handwerker
> > > Chief, Metallurgy Division
> > > NIST
> > > 100 Bureau Drive Stop 8550
> > > Gaithersburg MD 20899-8550
> > > Office:(301) 975-6158
> > > Fax:(301) 975-4553
> > > e-mail:[log in to unmask]
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> Lead-Free
> > > Electronic
> > > Assemblies.
> > > Please visit IPC's Center for Lead-Free Electronics Assembly
> > > (http://www.leadfree.org ) for additional information.
> > > For technical support contact Gayatri Sardeshpande [log in to unmask] or
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> > > IPCWorks -October 25-28 featuring an International Summit on
> Lead-Free Electronic
> > > Assemblies.
> > > Please visit IPC's Center for Lead-Free Electronics Assembly
> > > (http://www.leadfree.org ) for additional information.
> > > For technical support contact Gayatri Sardeshpande [log in to unmask] or
> 847-790-5365.
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> > IPCWorks -October 25-28 featuring an International Summit on Lead-Free
> Electronic
> > Assemblies.
> > Please visit IPC's Center for Lead-Free Electronics Assembly
> > (http://www.leadfree.org ) for additional information.
> > For technical support contact Gayatri Sardeshpande [log in to unmask] or
> 847-790-5365.
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> > IPCWorks -October 25-28 featuring an International Summit on Lead-Free
> Electronic
> > Assemblies.
> > Please visit IPC's Center for Lead-Free Electronics Assembly
> > (http://www.leadfree.org ) for additional information.
> > For technical support contact Gayatri Sardeshpande [log in to unmask] or
> 847-790-5365.
> > ################################################################
>
> ################################################################
> Leadfree E-Mail Forum provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV
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> with following text in the body:
> To subscribe:   SUBSCRIBE Leadfree <your full name>
> To unsubscribe:   SIGNOFF Leadfree
> ################################################################
> IPCWorks -October 25-28 featuring an International Summit on Lead-Free
> Electronic
> Assemblies.
> Please visit IPC's Center for Lead-Free Electronics Assembly
> (http://www.leadfree.org ) for additional information.
> For technical support contact Gayatri Sardeshpande [log in to unmask] or
> 847-790-5365.
> ################################################################
>
> ################################################################
> Leadfree E-Mail Forum provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8c
> ################################################################
> To subscribe/unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask]
> with following text in the body:
> To subscribe:   SUBSCRIBE Leadfree <your full name>
> To unsubscribe:   SIGNOFF Leadfree
> ################################################################
> IPCWorks -October 25-28 featuring an International Summit on Lead-Free Electronic
> Assemblies.
> Please visit IPC's Center for Lead-Free Electronics Assembly
> (http://www.leadfree.org ) for additional information.
> For technical support contact Gayatri Sardeshpande [log in to unmask] or 847-790-5365.
> ################################################################

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Leadfree E-Mail Forum provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8c
################################################################
To subscribe/unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask]
with following text in the body:
To subscribe:   SUBSCRIBE Leadfree <your full name>
To unsubscribe:   SIGNOFF Leadfree
################################################################
IPCWorks -October 25-28 featuring an International Summit on Lead-Free Electronic
Assemblies.
Please visit IPC's Center for Lead-Free Electronics Assembly
(http://www.leadfree.org ) for additional information.
For technical support contact Gayatri Sardeshpande [log in to unmask] or 847-790-5365.
################################################################

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