Hi TechNetters,
Your thread is expressing a need and concern we at PCB007.com believe PCB
buyers are concerned with.
We are auditing PCB Manufacturers World-wide in order to offer a service to
PCB Buyers. The audit itself is based on over 20 years of experience in the
PCB manufacturing and relationship with Buyers. Our auditors are therefore
qualified people based on several continents.
The audits we do, is to replace the need for Buyers to do it themselves, to
reduce the number of audits for the Manufacturers, and to offer to the
Buyers a wide spectrum of Audited PCB manufacturers World-wide. It should
also reduce costs on both sides.
ISO 9000 is not considered as a proof of quality, but is helping speed-up
the audits.
For us, it fits into a wider context, which is the following:
The principle is simple, the model existing in several other industries and
the trend ineluctable.
Info-Elec, Ltd positions itself neutrally, between the PCBs Buyers and the
Manufacturers, by the mean of Internet Web Site (will be operational on 9th
of November for Productronica, www.PCB007.com).
It has been designed for the Buyers to anonymously place their Request For
Quotations (RFQs)
To
Manufacturers, also anonymous, we have audited, that are specialized into
the type of PCBs requested and to whom we are sending the RFQ's World-wide.
Then we will get the quotes back, sort them by Countries, Prices, delivery
confidence (% on-Time) and few parameters particular to the Manufacturers
for the Buyer to choose from.
Of course we are offering other services in order to be the indispensable
partner to both, the Buyers and the Manufacturers. It includes real time
information in 5 languages as we built a w-w network of Journalists /
Reporters including with some you know well.
This being in the big lines.
As of today, we are auditing and audited PCB Manufacturers World-wide,
representing a turnover of over 1.6 Billion US$ !
This being the context and philosophy that we believe will be prevalent in
the coming years as everybody is looking for cost reduction.
Since years, we are into PCB publishing and PCB Manufacturing and this new
service has taken Time and lot of money to reach to our soon launching. Our
Team consists of about 30 people as of today.
I tried to avoid sending you all a sales pitch, therefore for the interested
ones, please contact me off-TechNet for further questions, PCB007
representative and audit planning in your area.
With respects
Roland Jaquet
[log in to unmask]
Info-Elec Ltd.
PCB007.com
E-Business
----------------------------------------------------
Hi TechNetters,
In a discussion with some fellow engineers we discussed the potential need
for a service that audits PCB shops for end users. The service would
provide on-site audits of your PCB shops performing all the in depth checks
that you
would want to find in place at your suppliers shop.
Do any of you think that there would be a need for such a service? All
responses would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Mark Mazzoli
----------------------------------------------------
Mark,
I think it would be a wonderful idea.
I'd certainly be interested in participating in the program, let me know
what I can do.
A need for this? He** Yes there's a need for this.
Franklin
----------------------------------------------------
Hello Technetters,
First, this response is from someone who works in a board shopso take it
with a .......
I believe there are already multiple avenues for a customer to find the
proper board shop. Starting with the ISO approved shops and going to the
IPC members list. The problem I have with another group auditing the PCB
shop is that each is gear to build completely different products. Tyco (my
shop), for example has seven different shops (as of this letter) and when
customers try to use one audit for all of them they become very frustrated.
The volume shop is geared to low cost manufacturing, the tech shop is gear
to new products, etc....
My point finally is who as a third party would be qualified to audit us?
If you want to know the "true capabilities" of a shop you can use the CAT
test to evaluate their technology. I just see another level of cost being
introduced that cannot possibly take all the needs of the customer and
publish the "rating" of a PCB shop.
Just my opinion,
Joe Dickson
Dir. of Engineering
Tyco Intl. PCB
Santa Clara /Stockton
Divisions
----------------------------------------------------
> Isn't this also known as vendor source inspection, for which an
infrastructure and experienced community already exists?
Regards,
--
Jeff Seeger Applied CAD Knowledge Inc
Chief Technical Officer Tyngsboro, MA 01879
jseeger "at" appliedcad "dot" com 978 649 9800
----------------------------------------------------
Hi Joe,
Thanks for your response. We appreciate your opinion. A few points I'd
like to comment on. I don't think that simply looking for ISO certification
qualifies a PCB shop as a "good" PCB shop. In fact I've been in some pretty
poorly run ISO certified shops. And, no disrespect for our hosts here, IPC
membership certainly doesn't make a shop competent. Any shop can become a
member.
Of course any end user that would want to audit a PCB shop with more than
one facility would need to take that into account. But as a PCB
manufacturer don't you audit the facilities where your cores and pre-preg
are made? If so, don't you go to that specific location or do you allow a
multi-unit material supplier to ship to you from any facility. Maybe you
don't audit your material supplier, I don't know. But clearly, using one
shop's "grade" to measure the quality from the sister company doesn't make
sense.
And the last thing I'd like to comment on is toward your last item, what
third party would be qualified to audit your shop. Well, certainly end
users who have never manufactured PCB's are not fully qualified. But a
group of PCB process engineers, quality engineers and manufacturing
professionals would probably be. People who have spent a minimum of 15
years (each) in the business of manufacturing PCB's. Maybe even people who
have, at one time or another, worked at your shop.
Again, we appreciate your feedback. We're just beginning the "thinking"
portion of this venture and may not even proceed with it. Just seeing if
the end user community would benefit from it.
Thanks.
Mark Mazzoli
Joe,
Perhaps we need to look at this from an auditing standpoint, and not the ol
pass or fail view.
Auditing is designed to perform a basic product! "information"
I think outside auditors with PCB fabrication knowledge would benefit
Network Circuits, Inc. in the following ways:
Provide an unbiased perspective of where we are at Identify potential
trouble areas we may overlook being 'too close' to this on a daily basis
Opportunities for improvements shared for the purpose of industry growth
Support our internal audit, corrective/preventive action, and continuous
improvement program
Would I allow an auditor in here that I felt would not benefit this company,
hell no I would not.
I would however, allow an audit team to provide me with a detailed report of
where their experience and/or expertise perceive us to be. As Martha would
say '...it's a good thing'
Regards,
Franklin D Asbell, CQA
Network Circuits, Inc.
Irving, Texas
----------------------------------------------------
Good points also Mark,
I'll respond to your points in order.
Question 1
Of course any end user that would want to audit a PCB shop with more than
one facility would need to take that into account.
But as a PCB manufacturer don't you audit the facilities where your cores
and pre-preg are made?
Answer:
Yes I have audited my suppliers, and that's my main point. My supplier MUST
be chosen by me because only I know exactly what I expect from them and
their products. I would never take a third party's opinion even if they
were highly qualified.
Comment and Question 2
And the last thing I'd like to comment on is toward your last item, what
third party would be qualified to audit
your shop. Well, certainly end users who have never manufactured PCB's are
not fully qualified. But a group of PCB process engineers, quality
engineers and manufacturing professionals would probably be. People who
have spent a minimum of 15 years (each) in the business of manufacturing
PCB's. Maybe even people who have, at one time or another, worked at your
shop.
Answer:
One thing this industry doesn't need is more consultants. We need
manufactureres to stay on the manufacturing side and make their companies
experts along with themselves (OK off the soapbox).
Let me finish this response with a question to you; what other industry
requires consultants to choose their suppliers? If a specific company
doesn't have the skill to pick the suppliers, all they have to do is pool
the suppliers who service their competition.
Users groups are active tools for information and promote the superior
suppliers.
Just one persons opinion,
Joe Dickson
----------------------------------------------------
Hi Joe,
Thanks for your comments. We appreciate the feedback. Any other comments
from PCB manufacturers would be appreciated as well. Hopefully we can get
some responses from end users as well.
Thanks
Mark Mazzoli
----------------------------------------------------
You two fellows (Mark & Joe) sure have a good rapport here .
I was going to desist (Inge does not like same old f's butting in all the
time);
but than came the word tickling me all the time reading your exchanges . End
use .
Joe 's got a very good point ; who is more qualified than the cook (hate
aluminium pots). Agree .
But it does have a twist .
The served may have a very discerning or specific palate , for a very good
reason occasionally .
Audit ? One of wold's best jewelers (Mr. Daniels) workshop producing grand
complications of astronomical (literally) functions would certainly not pass
ISO audit . Yet the product is beyond understanding (tolerances to .001 mm).
So we went touch different way bout the validations : CLEAR specs :
We asked the fab fellows (each >process line< separately) to describe the
process ; list equipment and materials used (by brand, not only type)and
give us standard approved samples .
Those (all) go through (one) metalography lab with (one set) calibrated
instruments (listed again) .
That gives us one (="true") reference of all samples .
Whenever anything changes (say brand of laminate, maintenance schedule, new
gear, etc.) the fab sends notification and subsequent sample to keep in
library (with solderability, crosscut, etc.)
I personally don't see much point in audits (pass the debilitating dinners,
that is); as Joe said,
looking at ocean gives little away even if you "know" it > it changes in
minor still critical details .
Went through shops where my shoes fell apart the same week (stitching
threads incompatible with Aqua Regia on the floor) producing perfect boards;
and super tidies with dilettante craftsmanship as well .
To sum it up Mark, SPC on every line supplying will get you there in much
more informed fashion than walking shafts with a canary .
cu mate
Paul Klasek
ResMed
----------------------------------------------------
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