TechNet,
I would like to throw in my two cents...before this subject goes from
amusing to outright ugly...
I disagree with some of the comments made by a few people on this subject,
as a matter of fact I have experienced quite the opposite first hand. "Just
build it the way it is designed" or "Just follow the drawing and leave the
thinking to us" is a quite common answer that I guess all PCB manufacturers
receive every day.
In my company (as I guess in many others around the US and the whole planet)
we have the bad habit of checking the artwork for manufacturability before
we even start building the board - I am sure that most of my colleagues will
agree that 90% of the times the designers and engineers on the other side of
the phone line completely ignore all the manufacturability
improvements/changes proposed by the PCB Fabricator.
Sorry, but after that I can't find anything wrong in building a product that
follows the specifications and the requirement that were given to me, we may
ask but if we are not allowed to fix anything we build it the way it is.
Second, about PCB fabricators not talking to suppliers...maybe I am talking
to the wrong people but did you ever try to be the small PCB shop that goes
to a billion dollar manufacturers of chemistry (no names mentioned) and
suggest that you need a better product for plating of high aspect ratio
holes or, God forbid, blind vias? Or try to convince somebody that you need
a thinner and faster photoresist... I think that I can still hear them
laughing... Maybe, just maybe it isn't that the PCB manufacturers aren't
talking to their suppliers, it's that suppliers that are not listening!
Finally one little note about the "we are a profit making organization" that
was pointed out as being the example of how "low" PCB manufacturers get.
Well, I would like to know how many companies we have out there that are NOT
a profit making organization. Last I checked it is kinda handy to be able
to make profit if you want to be in business, I find nothing wrong, low or
shameful in making an honest profit.
For one I don't mind making boards with 8 mil (0.2 mm) pitch wirebondable
boards, building them exactly to the requirements of the drawing, and be
able to make money doing it. As a matter of fact I'm kind of proud of it.
Of course (as the US comedian Dennis Miller often says) that's just my
opinion...I could be wrong.
Kiko Vigano
Division Manager
Compunetics, Inc.
PCB Division
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of pod
Sent: Monday, October 04, 1999 7:41 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] PCB Manufacturers
Joe,
There are some outstanding examples of your type. Tyco, and 10% or the
others, have done an admirable job, though not keeping ahead of demand.
After some years in the business, on many sides of the fence (how many can
there be - you'd be suprised) very few innovations or technological changes
come from fabricators. That's the shame.
We are currently pushing, not being pulled by, 3000 I/O's on selected
BGA/CGA types on .8 mm. We've been pushing the envelope for years asking,
not pleading and begging, shops to get with the program. However, as long as
there is reasonable profit, few followed - let alone led. As an example, I
once worked with a premier board shop. The motto on the door, upon entry,
was we are a profit making organization. We'll do anything for your money
and we did - some of the time.
Earl Moon
----- Original Message -----
From: Joe Dickson <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Monday, October 04, 1999 6:42 PM
Subject: Re: [TN] PCB Manufacturers
> To all I politely disagree,
>
> I have been to no less than six IPC sponsored seminars
> specifically gear to the future trends in the IC industry.
> We now have a presentation that doesn't focus on manufacturing
> anymore, but how to use manufacturing techniques for routing
> advances. We are currently working on a 2000 plus I/O BGA at .8 mm
> pitch. I'm sure there are other board shops working with
> customers with even higher routing needs. I'm surprised someone
> directly from IPC hasn't responded to this e-mail. This has been one
> of the most popular issues that I've attended in the last two years.
> Our seminars for routing techniques has become the best
> attended seminar we sponsor. Even over the PCB manufacturing
> guidelines.
>
> Just a thought,
> Joe Dickson
> Dir. of Engineering
> Tyco Printed Circuit Division
> Santa Clara, Calif.
>
>
>
> > Paul: Here's my two cents worth-
> >
> > It gets worse if you think that the PCB manufacturers aren't talking to
> > their customer base. They definitely do not talk to the component
> > manufacturers. Over the past 24 months, I have had the unusual
happenstance
> > to visit virtually every IC assembly facility in Asia, as well as many
in
> > Europe. These include both captive houses, as well as foundry services.
> >
> > In only one case (IBM) did I find that any PCB manufacturer had ever
> > inquired as to where the IC interconnect industry was headed, either
> > strategically or short term. How can one industry understand what its
future
> > requirements will be if they do not understand where their greatest
> > challenges are coming from.
> >
> > The art of copper placement on FR4 is not new; great strides have been
made
> > to create finer and finer line widths at greater and greater planar
> > densities. However, these are mere drops in the bucket when you consider
the
> > available of 50um wire bonding at 10um pitches. The IC industry can do
this
> > today if it only had a FR4 substrate capable of accepting it.
> >
> > As a end user of the PCB industry, it seems the only time we get to talk
to
> > our PCB suppliers is when there is trouble- either in product
performance
> > (quality, line yields, etc.), pricing or delivery.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Bill Davis, Ph.D.
> > Sr. Scientist
> > (408) 325-7868
> > [log in to unmask]
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Paul Brown [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 1999 2:39 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: [TN] PCB Manufacturers
> >
> >
> > Well
> >
> > So far we have managed to obtain about 5 replies from PCB manufacturers
out
> > of how may thousands worldwide
> >
> > Can anyone suggest a way of getting them involved ?
> >
> > Surely its about time that the people that use PCB,s( PWB,s) started
talking
> > to the people that make them!
> >
> > I used to be a specialty chemical supplier to the PCB industry in the UK
and
> > realized a long time ago that users of pcbs don't talk to the
manufacturers,
> > they send them a design and that's it
> > The problem is users don't often understand the processes involved in
> > manufacture
> >
> > Any comments
> >
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