Well - I've sit on the side-lines reading this really great dialoge and I just have to
add a comment (or two).

Dr. Bill has said what I have always felt, as an assemblier, should be true.  Although
I try to keep abreast of the processes envolved in manufacturing PWBs, I cannot and do
not know all of the intricacies of that business.  We have tried hard, over the many
years I have work here, to find manufactures to develope as open a relationship as
possible with.  I expect them to tell me if I am about to step in something.

I have that same relationship with our design engineers.  Its all they can do to keep
up with the pace of change in designing circuity.  It is up to me to let them know the
constraits of the manufacturing processes and supply them with design guidelines.  No
engineer likes to be told the his baby is ugly, but I if don't tell him I am not doing
my job.  I expect that my board vendors will tell me when we have an ugly baby and then
we can discuss corrective surgery.

Gary Camac





Bill Davis wrote:

> Mark-
>
> In my experience, PCB industry or otherwise, it's usually best to turn down
> business and say thanks, but no thanks if the design has a high probability
> of being a disaster (and nothing can dissuade your customer) or that the
> business isn't profitable in the long term. Many times companies take on
> losing business propositions in order to cement larger relationships with
> high profit margins.
>
> If I were to believe that the PCB houses constantly lose money, I would
> equally have to assume everyone out there (except Earl & Steve) are job
> hunting as their company closed its doors!
>
> I have a long held belief that in most cases, you are the experts, not your
> customers. If they were the experts in PCB fabrication and layout, they
> would be vertically integrated (business models notwithstanding), and they
> would be in the fab business. I think we all have a duty to our customers to
> provide that expertise, usually whether they want it or not. If they opt not
> to utilize it, then you should look at the ramifications to your business.
>
> Thanks & regards,
> Dr. Bill
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard Mark Mazzoli [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Monday, October 04, 1999 4:51 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Oh what a can of worms ! (PCB Manufacturers et al)
>
> Hi Steve,
>
> Wonder why some PCB shops are reluctant to ask customers about potential
> problems on boards?  One reason is that we hear all too often "Well, we've
> been getting it that way from other board shops - Why can't you guys do it".
> Or many times we have alienated "sensitive" designers who "know way much
> more
> than we do" about PCB's and in turn begin to lose orders from that company.
> Another reason is that we're job shops - we're asked to build "risky" things
> all the time.  For the most part we manage to make it work, many times
> losing
> money on the order, so that we can satisfy the customer.
>
> I worked for a compay that explained a HUGE problem to our largest customer
> on one of their designs.  We not only explained it to them, we showed them
> statistical models that confirmed our find.  We moved from "requesting"
> their
> understanding to "begging" for them to change the marginal design.  When
> that
> failed we went ahead and built the orders - many, many orders.  Thousands of
> boards.  Like we suspected there were failures.  The rub here is that when
> it
> was all said and done it was OUR fault the failures developed.  We should
> have been more forceful I suppose.
>
> Another case was a beauty.  Same scenario, we identified a potential
> problem,
> they commented that if we couldn't do it someone else could.  We needed the
> business (like pretty much EVERYONE does these days) and we failed.  We
> tried
> hard, but we failed.  The customer was pissed, we got "fired".  So much for
> trying to communicate.
>
> The fact is, Steve, that most PCB shops try to be what the customer wants.
> We try to deliver what you ask for.  Even when those requirements are
> outside
> our own in-house capabilities.  With all the competition between us these
> days it's not surprising that we're reluctant to call up with potential
> problems.  We don't want to anger the customer and have them call around for
> another shop.  So, we try.  We test ourselves and push our processes.
> Sometimes outside of our capabilities.  But usually not.
>
> Steve, shops that are crusing along making good profits are the ones who
> will
> take the time and the risk to get their customer involved in potential
> problems they may see on designs.  The rest of the shops are not so
> inclined.
>  But guess what.  Few shops are cruising along making good profits these
> days.
>
> Mark Mazzoli
>
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