Not letting go, I concur as vertical integration, for one thing, disappeared
in 1992, when IBM, as an example, finally saw the message on the wall. Last
year I was involved with the H-P breakup rendering but another giant facing
the last of its remnants going private and the end of trying to do it all
internally. It's not easy, but we all must do what we did before (hopefully
well through concurrence) while farming "it" out while counting on suppliers
to provide critical expertise.

Always, board shops must know what's going on and what to advise. After the
vertical integration abandonment, the virtual corporation was born. With
this birth, came experts doing what they do best. OEM's did the
conceptualization and beyond. Then, with concurrence, designs were supposed
to become manufacturable. That hasn't always been the case as CE has not
always been included in DFM as it always has been in the aerospace/military
segment.

Again, it's just nice to see so many friendly board shop faces showing up on
what was originally their forum - before all this SMT business.

Earl Moon
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Davis <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 1999 1:06 PM
Subject: Re: [TN] Oh what a can of worms ! (PCB Manufacturers et al)


> Mark-
>
> In my experience, PCB industry or otherwise, it's usually best to turn
down
> business and say thanks, but no thanks if the design has a high
probability
> of being a disaster (and nothing can dissuade your customer) or that the
> business isn't profitable in the long term. Many times companies take on
> losing business propositions in order to cement larger relationships with
> high profit margins.
>
> If I were to believe that the PCB houses constantly lose money, I would
> equally have to assume everyone out there (except Earl & Steve) are job
> hunting as their company closed its doors!
>
> I have a long held belief that in most cases, you are the experts, not
your
> customers. If they were the experts in PCB fabrication and layout, they
> would be vertically integrated (business models notwithstanding), and they
> would be in the fab business. I think we all have a duty to our customers
to
> provide that expertise, usually whether they want it or not. If they opt
not
> to utilize it, then you should look at the ramifications to your business.
>
> Thanks & regards,
> Dr. Bill
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard Mark Mazzoli [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Monday, October 04, 1999 4:51 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Oh what a can of worms ! (PCB Manufacturers et al)
>
>
> Hi Steve,
>
> Wonder why some PCB shops are reluctant to ask customers about potential
> problems on boards?  One reason is that we hear all too often "Well, we've
> been getting it that way from other board shops - Why can't you guys do
it".
> Or many times we have alienated "sensitive" designers who "know way much
> more
> than we do" about PCB's and in turn begin to lose orders from that
company.
> Another reason is that we're job shops - we're asked to build "risky"
things
> all the time.  For the most part we manage to make it work, many times
> losing
> money on the order, so that we can satisfy the customer.
>
> I worked for a compay that explained a HUGE problem to our largest
customer
> on one of their designs.  We not only explained it to them, we showed them
> statistical models that confirmed our find.  We moved from "requesting"
> their
> understanding to "begging" for them to change the marginal design.  When
> that
> failed we went ahead and built the orders - many, many orders.  Thousands
of
> boards.  Like we suspected there were failures.  The rub here is that when
> it
> was all said and done it was OUR fault the failures developed.  We should
> have been more forceful I suppose.
>
> Another case was a beauty.  Same scenario, we identified a potential
> problem,
> they commented that if we couldn't do it someone else could.  We needed
the
> business (like pretty much EVERYONE does these days) and we failed.  We
> tried
> hard, but we failed.  The customer was pissed, we got "fired".  So much
for
> trying to communicate.
>
> The fact is, Steve, that most PCB shops try to be what the customer wants.
> We try to deliver what you ask for.  Even when those requirements are
> outside
> our own in-house capabilities.  With all the competition between us these
> days it's not surprising that we're reluctant to call up with potential
> problems.  We don't want to anger the customer and have them call around
for
> another shop.  So, we try.  We test ourselves and push our processes.
> Sometimes outside of our capabilities.  But usually not.
>
> Steve, shops that are crusing along making good profits are the ones who
> will
> take the time and the risk to get their customer involved in potential
> problems they may see on designs.  The rest of the shops are not so
> inclined.
>  But guess what.  Few shops are cruising along making good profits these
> days.
>
> Mark Mazzoli
>
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