Hey I'm with you and that's what I was trying to say. . I was only trying to point
out (semi humourously and a little disparingly) that there is little rationality in
green issues, people believe what they want to believe. My illustration with the
reports on the bus vs cars etc was to show this and appears to have worked I suppose.
These reports are issued without the full story and pass into circulation without
context, but people then take them seriously to support whatever their view point is
and ... you get the picture.
If you really really want the original data/references I will try and dig out. The
background is this. On the bus this was a straightforward comparison of tail pipe
emissions whereby the output of a typical UK bus was measured and found to be 50 -70
times greater than a modern car, and the bike was again a simple comparison. Both
counter intuitive, but neither took into account the real picture which is the amount
of energy /pollution from actually making the car/bus whatever in the first place
which is very significant, nor the point made in another response about fossil fuels
feeding cars and organic matter feeding people and general pollution caused by the
traffic holding up all the buses etc..
For what its worth I personally favour some sort of "length of cycle" indexed tax on
fuel. ie the amount of time taken to originate the fuel and to return to status quo
ante. eg a tree/wood would be say 20. (10 years to grow, a few weeks to burn and 10
years to regrow), Solar would be zero, fossil some hundreds of millions, nuclear say
250,000 and so on. I guess it would have to be to base 10 to be meaningful.
Mike Fenner
BSP, OX15 4JQ, England
T: +44 1295 722 992
M: +44 789 999 7715
F: +44 1295 720 937
-----Original Message-----
From: Bev Christian <[log in to unmask]>
To: 'Michael Fenner' <[log in to unmask]>; [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
Date: 10 August 1999 15:44
Subject: RE: [TN] "Green" Technologies...
>Mike,
>I would really like to see the data that shows that a bus puts out more
>pollution than 40 cars. The only way I can envision this is that it would
>be due to the cars being driven to work and back, but left off while you are
>working, while the bus is running, say for sake of our discussion, 12 hours
>straight and while you are at work it is only carrying a handful of people.
>And as always we have not taken into account other things like more jobs
>created for bus drivers and mechanics, fewer retail jobs because the money
>you would spend in shops you now spend on bus fare, less (or more?) wear and
>tear on the roads, fewer accidents, less stress because the roads are not
>clogged, the "cost" of your time spent waiting at bus stops and on and on
>and ... you get the picture. We never seem to look at the whole picture in
>any of these discussions.
>
>A cyclist may produce more CO2 (I find this hard to believe, but anyway) but
>he/she is not spewing out nitrous oxides and PAN. Some ketones and aldehydes
>but certainly nothing like a car, whether or not it is "catalyzed". Show
>me some data.
>
>regards,
>Bev Christian
>Nortel Networks
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Michael Fenner [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 1999 10:05 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [TN] "Green" Technologies...
>>
>> No wager from me. Much as I regret it, rational thought and reasoned
>> informed debate
>> does not necessarily go with green.
>>
>> For example here in UK we are constantly being harangued to use public
>> transport or
>> cycle on the basis that this will reduce pollution.
>> However the numbers reportedly show that trip for trip a cyclist produces
>> more CO2
>> than a catalysed car and that a bus full of people produces more pollution
>> [from the
>> bus] than it removes by those people leaving their cars at Home.
>>
>>
>> [So my logical green suggestion is to give 3 people a lift and for them to
>> all to
>> hold their breathe on the drive to work....]
>>
>>
>> Mike Fenner
>> BSP, OX15 4JQ, England
>> T: +44 1295 722 992
>> M: +44 789 999 7715
>> F: +44 1295 720 937
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Stephen R. Gregory <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
>> Date: 10 August 1999 00:12
>> Subject: [TN] "Green" Technologies...
>>
>>
>> >Hi ya'll!
>> >
>> >This may be a little off-topic, but I've got a little wager with someone
>> that
>> >the thought behind "Green" Technology is really a bust. You know for
>> example,
>> >the monitors that shut themselves off after a certain period of time may
>> well
>> >save a few fractions of a cent in power consumption, but the stress of
>> >powering down and up, and down and up, and so on, causes the life of the
>> >monitor to be considerably shortened.
>> >
>> >Somehow, this person has calculated that if everybody in the company
>> shuts
>> >their computers off everynight, and then reboots them every morning,
>> there
>> >will be a $3,500 a year savings in electricity. My take on it is that the
>> >$3,500 in electricity savings will be overshadowed by the cost of failed
>> >motherboards and associated hardware from the 'pooters powering up and
>> >down...am I out to lunch on this? (If I am, I owe a lunch...hehehe)
>> >
>> >-Steve Gregory-
>> >
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