I am a current Panasert user and would like to give some insight to some of
these issues. We currently run two lines with a total of 4 MVIIF machines.
We are successfully using double feeders on several of our products, we have
very few problems with their reliability. Double feeders allow us to load
an entire job on one side of the feeder carriage while we are setting up for
the next job. Although we do not own Fuji's, (and I have limited experience
with them) I know that the new Panapro is able to generate Fuji programs
from a colleague at another facility in MN that is doing that successfully.
We have been able to maintain the MVIIF's with minimum maintenance.
Regards,
Mark Pozorski
Sr. Mfg. Eng.
ADC Telecommunications
-----Original Message-----
Subject: [TN] CP642 vs CM88-CM or Fuji vs Panasonic- Part II
My,
Yes, after I sent my message it struck me that that must be a KME
model number. The Panasonic machine rated at 48,000 CPH is the
MSH-III.
I am familiar with the MV series, we had an MV-150 at Raytheon, my
previous employer. I have not had to convert from Panasonic to Fuji,
since my old employer had only Panasonic machines, and I now have Fuji
and Universal. But I'm sure they can convert for you. Make sure that
is part of the purchase agreement.
Panapro software(added cost), from Panasert, can line balance all
panasonic machines based on what you wish to run, and you might be
able to talk them into providing a Fuji module for panapro...or you
could buy a 3rd party pkg that can do all (Unicam or Mitron).
We have just purchased a CP-642, so I cannot give feedback on that
yet, but we have had very good success with our other Fuji models
(CP-IV.3).
We asked the same question on PM schedules, and based on responses
from other users in the field, the Fuji is supposedly a very robust
machine and less dependent on strict PM schedules.
We did not use the new Panasonic dbl feeder system, partly due to
the fact that we liked running the larger 13" reels, and we were low
volume VERY high mix, so we had to do many change-overs anyway, so not
much help there either.
Good luck!
______________________________ Forward Header
__________________________________
Subject: CP642 vs CM88-CM or Fuji vs Panasonic- Part II
Author: My Nguyen <[log in to unmask]> at Internet
Date: 7/23/98 9:19 PM
Hi Jeff and other technet members,
First of all, thank a lot for your helpful advise!!
I made a mistake when I said CM88C-M is a product from Panasert, in fact it
is a product of Panasert enemy! Big mistake!!
When you said 48,000 part per hour, could you please specify which machine
model can run that fast? We are a memory and fax/modem business, so we have
to run component size from 0402 chip/cap to 30-32mm QFP daily(8mm to 44mm
feeder). Base on my study of these two machines Fuji tactime is better for
small chip/cap, but slower for bigger component due to its nozzle change.
In the other hand, Panasonic (MVIIF) is slower with chip/cap but faster with
bigger components due to it smart nozzle set design + camera recognition!!
(Very smart with orange color).
1- Carrier Tape Treatment: However the above is reality. We experienced a
lot of problems with Fuji while running 32mm carrier tape. It chop off our
DRAM (2-5% of TSOP), got jam in cutting area,...and we have to slow down our
cam speed from 65% (normal) to 30% and we got to drop one of our DRAM vendor
due to that reason. Did it happen with your machines (both Panasonic and
Fuji)? Is the vacuum system strong enough to suck all the cut tape carrier
and suck it to the trash box completely at high speed (0.12 sec/dram)?
2- Software: F4G is a good software, however, the way it manages everything
into one or two file is dangerous. Also, we are limit in using program name
within 8 characters. We have too many different product configurations and
their name is slightly different from one to another. How Panasert manage
that problem? I heard that Panasert software has a function that can
convert Fuji program to Panasert program, is that true and how easy is this?
Does Panasert software have any major bugs that we should cautious?
3- PM: Is that easy and how often do we have to do PM. What would happen if
we miss it for a month? Could you compare it to CP642?
4. Feeders: Theoretically, the double feeder system of Panasert is
wonderful. In reality how reliable it is?
Please advise!! Again, your help is greatly, greatly appreciated!!!!!
My Nguyen
Viking Components Inc.
Rancho Santa Margarita, CA 92688
(714) 643 7255 @374
> ----------
> From: Jeff Hempton[SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Reply To: TechNet E-Mail Forum.;Jeff Hempton
> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 1998 6:54 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] CP642 vs CM88-CM or Fuji vs Panasonic
>
> I have to admit I am not familiar with the Panasonic CM88C-M???? I have
> even
> looked thru my Panasonic literature, and we used to run all Panasonic
> machines
> when I was in a previous life (just a few months ago), and still cannot
> find
> this model. I think for comparison purposes, the Panasonic MSH-III is more
> comparible to the FUJI 642...both are high-speed chip-shooters with vision
> recognition, although the Fuji is rated at 36,000 CPH and the Panasonic at
> 48,000 CPH...not sure how true the ratings are, but one thing of
> importance to
> review is how fast they can place the larger components in their range.
> We have just completed an exhaustive study of the Fuji CP-642 and the
> Universal HSP machines. It was exhaustive because they are both good
> machines,
> as are the two names you have chosen to compare.
> Here is what I have learned after going thru this exercise:
> 1) Determine first, what are the most important requirements for your
> application:
> Speed of chips, or larger parts (SOIC's,etc.), or both?
> Will there be platform issues, i.e., if you mix models (chip shooter
> different
> platform then your flex placer), can your programming staff handle
> balancing
> each machine individually(not a big deal if you are high volume/low mix),
> or are
> you willing to invest in a mix-platform software programming pkg like
> Cimmbridge
> or Unicam?
> Do you require bar-code verification? There is a DRASTIC difference in
> the
> bar-code methods and cost between the two companies!
> Head design: We actually had our technicians travel to the companiies
> sites and
> pull-apart the heads on the machines so we could understand the design and
> see
> if there were design or repair issues.
> Does the machine have a method of closed-loop feedback, that can
> determine
> part pick-up offsets, and auto-adjust for this.
> How many machines of this model have been sold, and where are they?
> Also, travel around a little to other companies using each machine type,
> and
> call others. Discuss with them their favorite and most unpopular things
> about
> their machines, and you will learn info about:
>
> Technical support, spare parts support.
> Reliability: How robust is the machine design...what happens of you miss
> a PM
> schedule? How many different lubricants are required for a PM cycle? (We
> have
> one machine that required 11 different grease-gun tips, 4 different
> greases and
> 2 oils!).
> FEEDER DESIGN!!! reliability, method of ACCURATE re-alignment of feeders
> and
> ease of change-over.
> Just a few examples to get the thought process flowing. Feel free to
> contact
> me if you would like more info. Good luck!
>
> Jeff Hempton
> United Technologies Electronic Controls
> [log in to unmask]
>
>
> ______________________________ Forward Header
> __________________________________
> Subject: [TN] CP642 vs CM88-CM or Fuji vs Panasonic
> Author: My Nguyen <[log in to unmask]> at Internet
> Date: 7/20/98 6:42 PM
>
>
> Dear TechNet members,
>
> We are looking for a new platforms which help us to be more comparative.
> 80%
> of our products are memory modules. By observing the two best machines on
> the market, we really hesitate to make a final decision: Fuji or
> Panasonic?
> CP642 or CM88C-M.
>
> Please advise!! What are the better feature between them? Your help is
> truly
> appreciated (Sell guys always tell me that their products are perfect and
> it
> just more confusing)
>
> My Nguyen
>
>
>
>
> My Nguyen
> Viking Components Inc.
> Rancho Santa Margarita, CA 92688
> (714) 643 7255 @374
>
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