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December 1997

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Subject:
From:
Paul Klasek <[log in to unmask]>
Reply To:
TechNet Mail Forum.
Date:
Wed, 31 Dec 1997 11:52:31 +1100
Content-Type:
text/plain
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Hi folks , Rich., Li , Jesse , Ed , & the rest on this subject.
Richard read the inserts bellow please :        V
                                        V
>----------
>From:  Hamilton, Richard -4454[SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
>Sent:  Wednesday, 31 December 1997 6:57
>To:    Paul Klasek; TechNet Mail Forum.
>Subject:       RE: [TN] Cost comparisons TH vs SMT
>
>Ed and Paul, and the rest,
>
>I guess my question was a little too broad maybe. Especially based on
>the response generated. I was originally trying to let Yuan know that it
>may not be easy to get such information.

It is a broad subject, & laborious , that's why nobody answers , and
there are tons of folks who did the cost feasibility charts, but
everybody is flat out & confidential, without the holidays I would not
enter the subject either.
As Ed said, don't feel about it , it's not easy anywhere anyhow.
>
>From my standpoint, I am aware of the different factors you need to
>review when considering moving from TH to SM. Many of which do *not*
>apply to our product, i.e., we are not forced, nor are we pushed into
>smaller PWB's, we also do not have a *need* to get more out of a little
>package, we have a lot of high power devices which will remain in TH for
>many years to come. Our product is analog based and the more 'stations'
>we add to a product, the more space we need for analog voltage
>switching, and lightning protection. So, hopefully you can see that we
>are in an interesting situation.
Interesting it is, the mix is not a problem, you just have to watch the
handling after SM .
From what am I hearing (distantly) if you battle with bean counters &
R&D ,
on budget you can achieve a hell of an improvement on cost, QC, &
throughput just with an extra dispenser ;
Therefore you dispense a snap cure type dots , P&place, through UV
tunnel , flip over & back to front for TH and over dual wave if your
pitch  does not go over .5mm . I presume (?) the low site of your cards
is empty, TH on top ?
In that case you could save a fortune almost free. Currently do you have
axial &/or radial auto insertion, or what is the manual content?
There are other ways (we dispense solder paste, no stencils) , but
that's a different chapter again.
>
>In my process of determining pricing trends, I (an Manf. Eng.) have
>spent many an hour/day trying to get some kind of actual idea of what
>our real requirement is! I cannot even get our engineering department to
>do a pilot of one of our existing units into SM so we can start to get
>an understanding of what we really need. I did make note of your
>comments on the pricing though, I just need to get some raw data to
>substantiate claims....I even worked with 5 of our vendors (one of them
>was Marshal!!) and that turned out mixed. The only real info I got out
>of that exercise was that the DIP device and the SM device was the same
>price, however the lead time was 6 weeks on DIP, and 4 weeks on SM.
Raw & Substance, I can understand Richard, plenty woffle round .
When you say the same price, that is component only , not inclusive of
insertion, real estate, & other factors, is it ?
It's all fairly laterally specific to individual product , if you can
send me overlays or photo (fax, Paul , +61 2 9878 5517 ), &  tell me
what gear you have now, I'll send you something more to the point , hard
to work blind as you noted yourself .
>
>I do appreciate the responses though. Let me share the corporate
>philosophy: One of the other SBU's (another internal company) had a new
>product designed outside, they wanted a bus style product that could be
>expanded in the field, ala PC's. What we ended up with was a 18" X 18"
>box with everything from TH to SM, single sided, double sided (TH *and*
>SM), and a PCMCIA memory card, not off the shelf, CUSTOM!!  Well, with
>my limited knowledge and experience in SM, I cringed at the fact that
>there are 11 different PWB assemblies, with one complete product
>consisting of a minimum of 14 PWB's.
Richard what is PWB for, is it printed circuit(wired?) board , the terms
are bit different on cards here .
The custom job IS massive , and if 14 cards in one assembly >> I won't
comment on that one .
Can see why you're on spin .
>
>My thought is that this is a nightmare for our plant to 'jump into' SM
>with. I see Contract Manufacturing in our horizon for a long time, maybe
>not for the complete product, but at least for the super fine pitch and
>ultra fine pitch assembly until we can get this TH plant educated and
>trained on how to handle SM, and thus take advantage of the benefits,
>like Quality, which I see as the most significant benefit to going to
>SM.
You've got the realities right , educational mare it is (do not try it
on your own , work in duplicate or triplicate ; it is massive initially
[1-2years], cruise afterwards ),
Do not hold much hope in subs (subcontracts) , you'll pay a fortune if
you pin them to a tested assy, and you have no idea what and where and
how = thermal shocks for example when cold soldered "repairs" will dry
on you in the field etc.
There may be good guys round , but be skeptical and nosy as hell .
>
>Sorry to go on here, but I felt like I needed to amplify a little here
>so people don't think I just surf and don't do any work myself!!
Dead right , no sorries appropriate .
>
>Oh yea, my fax is (619) 661-4424 and it does get directly into our plant
>here in Tijuana, Mexico. Just put my name on it, I will get it!!
Thanks
>
>Thanks again for the helpful advice and any information I may be able to
>dig up!
>
>Richard Hamilton           *<():}>
>Clemar Mfg. / Rain Bird
>[log in to unmask]

Richard (and whoever is in evaluating eng. role) , I'd suggest to get
off the TNet with this,
it will be a protracted issue perhaps boring for most of the folks , due
to the specifics to be laundered .
Decision is yours.

See you           Paul: [log in to unmask]     , site: www.resmed.com
       .
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From:        Paul Klasek [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
>> Sent:        Tuesday, December 23, 1997 5:26 PM
>> To:  [log in to unmask]
>> Subject:     Re: [TN] Cost comparisons TH vs SMT
>>
>> Hi Richard
>>
>> Could not agree more with Ed ; = feel guilty & out of time .
>> What I can tell you as we go through TH > SM conversion right now on
>> the
>> overall process you save 15-20% , that is materials, directs, OHs ,
>> etc.
>> I did very detailed study for cost benefits validations, inclusive the
>> subcontract options ( TH inhouse x SM inhouse x SM contract ) .
>> I think you go through the same .
>> Let me know if that is so, I'll try to generalise my ( confidential )
>> spreadsheet over Holidays for outside use .
>> Let me know the fax No. too , I have some old papers and no scanner .
>>
>> See you     [www.resmed.com]                     Paul
>>
>> >----------
>> >From:  Ed Holton[SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
>> >Sent:  Wednesday, December 24, 1997 6:14 AM
>> >To:    [log in to unmask]
>> >Subject:       Re: [TN] Cost comparisons TH vs SMT
>
>> >
>> >Richard
>> >
>> >I understand your frustration about having your question not
>> answered, as
>> >it has also happened to me in the past.  But don't give up the fight,
>> you
>> >should be applauded for asking the question.  That is a much better
>> >attitude then never asking. . .
>>
>

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