Steve,
No - never in the Navy (or any other military service).
I used to work at a local company where the manager handed out
attaboys.
I was the recipient of one or two... then was informed about the
awwsh**...
I think I was in the negative column on attaboys.
--
Regards,
James Jackson, CID
Oztronics
On 2020-11-05 11:08, Steve Gregory wrote:
> James Jackson, you weren't ever in the Navy were you? Heard the
> Attaboy /
> Aw sh#t story from the Chief Petty Officers many, many times when I
> was
> in...
>
> Steve Gregory
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 5, 2020 at 10:02 AM James Jackson, CID <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
>> Scott,
>>
>> RE: Gold Star -
>> I was going to give you an 'attaboy' but have learned in the past
>> that
>> one awwsh**' wipes out 100 attaboys.
>>
>> As for my quest, I fear it has ended before it began. The engineer
>> replied that the client we are doing this for is the originator of
>> the
>> mis-numbered BGA and we aren't going to change it.
>>
>> My next quest will be renumbering a BGA created by Altium's Footprint
>> Wizard. I will be having fun with that. (NOT)
>>
>> --
>> Regards,
>>
>> James Jackson, CID
>> Oztronics
>>
>> On 2020-11-05 10:45, Decker, Scott Collins wrote:
>>> James,
>>> Thanks for the Gold Star, I'll place it on my PC with pride... :-)
>>> This question bugged me from yesterday and I knew there was
>>> something,
>>> but I just couldn't quite put my finger on it. I thought about it
>>> this
>>> morning and told myself it had to be in the Library Spec since
>>> that's
>>> the place you build and reference the parts from. After a couple of
>>> search tries, I found the section mentioned.
>>>
>>> As for your engineers, you might want to try the approach we do
>>> here sometimes when an engineer thinks they have a better idea, we
>>> simply ask them if they want to sign off on a deviation from
>>> industry
>>> standards and take the risk of having a non-standard item. After a
>>> few
>>> minutes, they think about the signing off and non-standard or
>>> deviation from industry standards and before you know it, they say
>>> to
>>> just do it like it's called out in the standard. Most of the time it
>>> works but there are those, well, there are those that are "special"
>>> shall we say... :-) Good luck on your quest...
>>> Later...
>>>
>>> Scott Decker | Senior Engineer, PCB Design Services CID+ |
>>> Electronic
>>> Systems Center
>>> COLLINS AEROSPACE
>>> 3445 S. 5th Street, Suite 170, Phoenix, AZ 85040 U.S.A.
>>> Tel: 602 308 5957 FAX: 602 243 2347
>>> [log in to unmask] www.collinsaerospace.com
>>> [collinsaerospace.com]
>>> KE7MWT
>>> CONFIDENTIALITY WARNING: This message may contain proprietary and/or
>>> privileged information of
>>> Collins Aerospace Systems and its affiliated companies. If you are
>>> not the intended recipient please 1) do not disclose, copy,
>>> distribute or use this message or its contents, 2) advise the sender
>>> by return e-mail, and 3) delete all copies (including all
>>> attachments) from your computer. Your cooperation is greatly
>>> appreciated.
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: James Jackson, CID [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>>> Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2020 9:35 AM
>>> To: TechNet E-Mail Forum <[log in to unmask]>; Decker, Scott Collins
>>> <[log in to unmask]>
>>> Subject: Re: [TN] [External] [TN] BGA Pin Numbering
>>>
>>> Scott,
>>>
>>> That is _EXACTLY_ what I was looking for! You get a gold star!
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, I do not think that it will help. I am already
>>> getting
>>> a 'we don't skip letters' response from the engineer.
>>>
>>> Sadly - the company fabricates their own parts, so it may be a case
>>> of
>>> - just do it like we say - regardless of the industry and standards.
>>>
>>> Now I have to look forward to renumbering a ton of balls to match
>>> their screwy non-skip requirement.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> James Jackson, CID
>>> Oztronics
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2020-11-05 09:59, Decker, Scott Collins wrote:
>>>> James,
>>>> I think I found your silver bullet... :-) I just looked up the
>>>> Contact defining section in IPC-7351 and found this: (Since I can't
>>>> attach in plane text, I'll copy the text)
>>>>
>>>> Section: 14.2.5 Defining Contact Assignment Array contact
>>>> identification is assigned by the column and Row location. For
>>>> Example, A1 contact position is always at an outside corner
>>>> position
>>>> with alpha characters arranged in a vertical (row) pattern from top
>>>> to
>>>> bottom. Numeric characters are assigned in a horizontal (column)
>>>> axis
>>>> (I, O, Q, S, X and Z are omitted) (see Figure 14-10).
>>>>
>>>> So there you go, you got a standard that gives you a reason... :-)
>>>> Hope this helps.
>>>> Later...
>>>>
>>>> PS. Sorry for the history thing, I didn't know... :-)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Scott Decker | Senior Engineer, PCB Design Services CID+ |
>>>> Electronic
>>>> Systems Center COLLINS AEROSPACE
>>>> 3445 S. 5th Street, Suite 170, Phoenix, AZ 85040 U.S.A.
>>>> Tel: 602 308 5957 FAX: 602 243 2347
>>>> [log in to unmask] www.collinsaerospace.com
>>>> [collinsaerospace.com] KE7MWT CONFIDENTIALITY WARNING: This message
>>>> may contain proprietary and/or privileged information of Collins
>>>> Aerospace Systems and its affiliated companies. If you are not the
>>>> intended recipient please 1) do not disclose, copy, distribute or
>>>> use
>>>> this message or its contents, 2) advise the sender by return
>>>> e-mail,
>>>> and 3) delete all copies (including all
>>>> attachments) from your computer. Your cooperation is greatly
>>>> appreciated.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: James Jackson, CID [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 4, 2020 3:56 PM
>>>> To: Decker, Scott Collins <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> Cc: TechNet E-Mail Forum <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> Subject: RE: [External] [TN] BGA Pin Numbering
>>>>
>>>> Scott,
>>>>
>>>> I understand the history, and fully agree. That's not my issue - at
>>>> the moment.
>>>>
>>>> My issue is that I am tasked with creating a BGA footprint that has
>>>> a
>>>> 17x17 grid.
>>>> The drawing I was handed to use as a datasheet has a BGA on it -
>>>> and
>>>> it is 'lettered' A - Q - with no 'skips'.
>>>>
>>>> Now, I can look at this two ways. I can shrug and ignore it, and
>>>> create my BGA footprint using the Footprint generator - which skips
>>>> the letters 'I', 'O' and 'Q' - which means that I will have to
>>>> manually renumber those rows to comply with the companies'
>>>> mis-numbered BGA. (Lots of
>>>> work.)
>>>>
>>>> My other option is to raise my hand and ask why we are not
>>>> following
>>>> XYZ spec which states to skip these letters. I just need to know
>>>> what
>>>> that XYZ spec is, cause I may be in for a discussion which will
>>>> most
>>>> likely begin with 'we've always done it that way'.
>>>>
>>>> The ANSI spec (as previously mentioned) may be the way to go.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the feedback.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> James Jackson, CID
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 2020-11-04 16:34, Decker, Scott Collins wrote:
>>>>> Hi James,
>>>>> I don't know of, (OK, I don't remember which) the IPC spec,
>>>>> although I'll bet there is several documents that cover this, but
>>>>> long story short. The use of I, O, Q, S, V, and Z, (I may have
>>>>> missed
>>>>> one or
>>>>> two)
>>>>> or rather the lack of their use is to prevent misinterpretation of
>>>>> the letters to numbers, etc. An "I" could be seen as "1", "O" the
>>>>> letter as "0" zero the number, S for 5, V for U, Q for O, S for 5,
>>>>> and Z for 2. I think you can get the jest of that. I'm not a
>>>>> historian on this, but back in the day, both copy/blueprint
>>>>> machines
>>>>> and silkscreen on PCB assemblies didn't create such perfect text
>>>>> as
>>>>> they are today, (OK they are MUCH better for sure) and thus,
>>>>> skipping
>>>>> letters listed, was a safe way to ensure the correct character(s)
>>>>> was/were read and understood. I believe there are ANSI drawing
>>>>> documents that also call out this list and perhaps other things,
>>>>> but
>>>>> I'm hoping this answers your question or at least helps. If your
>>>>> tools are helping you out by not allowing the use of these letters
>>>>> and such, let them help you, it's better than making an error and
>>>>> having to fix it later... :-) Stay safe and healthy!
>>>>> Later...
>>>>>
>>>>> Scott Decker | Senior Engineer, PCB Design Services CID+ |
>>>>> Electronic
>>>>> Systems Center COLLINS AEROSPACE
>>>>> 3445 S. 5th Street, Suite 170, Phoenix, AZ 85040 U.S.A.
>>>>> Tel: 602 308 5957 FAX: 602 243 2347
>>>>> [log in to unmask] www.collinsaerospace.com
>>>>> [collinsaerospace.com] KE7MWT CONFIDENTIALITY WARNING: This
>>>>> message
>>>>> may contain proprietary and/or privileged information of Collins
>>>>> Aerospace Systems and its affiliated companies. If you are not the
>>>>> intended recipient please 1) do not disclose, copy, distribute or
>>>>> use
>>>>> this message or its contents, 2) advise the sender by return
>>>>> e-mail,
>>>>> and 3) delete all copies (including all
>>>>> attachments) from your computer. Your cooperation is greatly
>>>>> appreciated.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of James Jackson,
>>>>> CID
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 4, 2020 3:02 PM
>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>> Subject: [External] [TN] BGA Pin Numbering
>>>>>
>>>>> I am in the process of creating a BGA footprint.
>>>>>
>>>>> This BGA is a 17x17 ball package - for this discussion, the
>>>>> particular dimensions are irrelevant.
>>>>>
>>>>> My question... the IPC footprint generator (Altium) starts the
>>>>> alpha
>>>>> section of numbering with the letter 'A' and then goes
>>>>> sequentially
>>>>> to B, C, D, E, F, G, H - and skips I. The next one is J, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is this by some 'standard' or arbitrary. I have seen this done
>>>>> through the years with the skipping of the letters 'I', 'O',
>>>>> and...
>>>>> I
>>>>> don't remember the others, but think that there are a few others.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm looking for some sort of 'reference' or published IPC
>>>>> statement
>>>>> (JEDEC perhaps?) that says, 'skip the following letters when
>>>>> creating
>>>>> BGA footprints'.
>>>>>
>>>>> (I hope my ramblings make sense...)
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> James Jackson, CID
>>>>> Oztronics
>>
>
>
> --
> Steve Gregory
> Kimco Design and Manufacturing
> Process Engineer
> (208) 322-0500 Ext. -3133
>
> --
>
>
>
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