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November 2015

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Subject:
From:
Yuan-chia Joyce Koo <[log in to unmask]>
Reply To:
TechNet E-Mail Forum <[log in to unmask]>, Yuan-chia Joyce Koo <[log in to unmask]>
Date:
Sun, 1 Nov 2015 12:09:03 -0500
Content-Type:
text/plain
Parts/Attachments:
text/plain (241 lines)
you can embedded in your purchasing order as compliance clause (with  
reference in your dwg note if you wish.... as one liner - must be  
comply to the company xxx vendor requirement in section abc).  you do  
that during the vendor qual stage, to make sure they understand your  
requirement prior to sign on the dotted line.  your have establish  
your own procurement standard with your legal's help.  you pay a bit  
more, but you sleep well (free up all your engineering force to do  
something more fun - not all of the company can do that... if bean  
counter in charge, normally don't see the "value add"... he will  
argue with you about non- compliance nowadays is statically non  
existence... his vendor are superman never could even think about  
make a mistake... it is totally waste of time and money... until one  
day... - if he still stick  around... he will start looking for next  
greener place... or he already got promoted and went into the greener  
place.
           jk;-(
On Nov 1, 2015, at 7:50 AM, Gorka BIROT wrote:

> Louis,
>
> If I do understand well, the manufacturer has no obligation to  
> store the
> 6012 test reports and any data retention mainly depends on each  
> company
> quality procedures ?
>
> To be clear, the entry control department of my company does PCB
> manufacturer auditing but they were not awared about 6012's tests  
> described
> in table 4-3.
>
> How can I be sure that the PCB I designed meets the class 3  
> requirements if
> I can't check the reports (and if I have serious doubts about their
> existence) and theirs frequencies ?
>
> One more hint: there is no impact on the price between a class 3  
> and class 2
> when we purchase a PCB....
>
> Gorka BIROT
> Embedded systems engineer
> [log in to unmask]
>
>
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Louis Hart [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Envoyé : vendredi 30 octobre 2015 23:21
> À : Gorka BIROT <[log in to unmask]>
> Objet : RE: [TN] Class 2/3 test report traceability
>
> Good question.  IPC does not, to my knowledge, which is not slight,  
> define
> any retention period.  We keep traveler packages for a minimum of  
> seven
> years. These packages contain the final inspection checklist,  
> certificate of
> electrical test, certificate of conformance, and microsection  
> report.  The
> microsection coupon mounts we keep for a minimum of three years,  
> along with
> the un-sectioned coupons.
>
> IPC-9252, the electrical test specification to which IPC-6012 refers,
> defines information required on a certificate of test, which you  
> might call
> a specification regarding traceability.
>
> Has a manufacturer in fact said "we are certified for class 3  
> production"?
> Or are you anticipating such a response?  I would answer with a  
> question:
> "What does 'certification' mean, and who 'certified' you?"  I might  
> also
> ask, "Why do you prepare reports if you are not going to keep  
> them?" (What
> do they mean by "reports"?)  It would make more sense to have  
> operators and
> inspectors just sign the various production and inspection steps on  
> the
> traveler.
>
>  IPC offers 'validation services', directed by Randy Cherry, with  
> validated
> companies listed here: http://www.ipcvalidation.org/html/list.htm  
> Validation
> services started in 2013, I think, so only a few companies are on  
> the list
> and none are 6012 validated as I see it.  My understanding is that  
> 6012
> validation has only been possible starting early this year. I  
> believe a
> company can be validated to class 2 or 3, in the context of various
> technology parameters.
>
> IPC-6011 describes 'qualification', but such qualification is based  
> on a
> demonstration agreed to by the supplier and customer, if my  
> understanding is
> correct.
>
> Certifications or qualifications to ISO 9000 or MIL-PRF-31032 I do not
> consider impressive, although they do indicate at least some  
> minimal level
> of competence.  I tell people, if you are concerned about a printed  
> circuit
> board supplier, you better go have a look for yourself.   
> Fabrication of
> printed circuit boards is not nearly as easy as at lot of people  
> think it
> is.  Louis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gorka BIROT [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Friday, October 30, 2015 4:06 PM
> To: 'TechNet E-Mail Forum' <[log in to unmask]>; Louis Hart
> <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: RE: [TN] Class 2/3 test report traceability
>
> Louis,
>
> Thanks for the answer but when you say :
> "Customers who want either the checklist or microsection report are  
> welcome
> to have them. "
>
> If the manufacturer answers "we are certified for class 3  
> production, we
> don't have to store the test reports", what can I answer ? Does the  
> IPC
> specify anything about test reports traceability and theirs storage ?
>
> Thank you
>
> Gorka BIROT
> Embedded systems engineer
> [log in to unmask]
>
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] De la part de Louis Hart  
> Envoyé :
> vendredi 30 octobre 2015 20:00 À : [log in to unmask] Objet : Re: [TN]  
> Class
> 2/3 test report traceability
>
> Look at Table 4-3 of IPC-6012 to see what inspections are to be  
> performed.
>
> We have a checklist summarizing all attribute and variables testing  
> for each
> job.  Not all boards or panels are tested, for example, for  
> solderability or
> for bow and twist.  Table 4-2, as referenced by Table 4-3, define  
> the number
> to be tested.
>
> Further, we prepare a microsection report for panels, inspected as  
> described
> in Table 4-3.  Class 3 multilayers get (based on our lot size) 100%
> microsection. Class 2 two-layer panels get sampled.  (If one of the
> two-layer  samples fails, the remainder are microsectioned.)
>
> Customers who want either the checklist or microsection report are  
> welcome
> to have them.
>
> Louis Hart
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Gorka BIROT
> Sent: Friday, October 30, 2015 2:31 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] Class 2/3 test report traceability
>
> Dear all,
>
>
>
> We have purchased a class 3 PCB and I want to check that all the tests
> required by the IPC 6012 have been performed.
>
>
>
> The traceability chapter of the IPC 6012 isn't really clear : does the
> manufacturer must store the test report of each board/panel ? Can I  
> required
> him to send me those test reports ?
>
>
>
> If the answer is "no", how can I be sure that my PCB is conform to  
> a class 3
> specifications ?
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Gorka BIROT
>
> Embedded systems engineer
>
>  <mailto:[log in to unmask]> [log in to unmask]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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