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From:
Ioan Tempea <[log in to unmask]>
Reply To:
TechNet E-Mail Forum <[log in to unmask]>, Ioan Tempea <[log in to unmask]>
Date:
Thu, 5 Nov 2015 17:05:08 +0000
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Entry Control Dept = Incoming Inspection.

Ioan Tempea, P. Eng.
Manufacturing Engineer, Satellite Systems 

MacDonald, Dettwiler and Associates Corporation, 21025 Trans-Canada Highway, Ste-Anne-de-Bellevue, QC, Canada H9X 3R2
Tel: +1-514-457-2150 x3556
www.mdacorporation.com

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-----Message d'origine-----
De : TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] De la part de BIROT
Envoyé : Wednesday, November 04, 2015 3:36 AM
À : [log in to unmask]
Objet : Re: [TN] TR: [TN] Class 2/3 test report traceability

Louis,
 
> Does the entry control department actually do a manufacturer audit on-site?
> (The name 'entry control department' is one I have not heard before.)
 
The name "entry control department" is a direct translation from french, so maybe this is not the right english expression...
For this specific manufacturer, i'm not sure they did the audit and as I said, they don't seem to be familiar with the 6012 requirements.
 
> Is your board supplier charging the same price for class 2 and class 3 boards?
> That is hard to believe. As you see in 6012, the class 2 requirements 
> are easier to meet. From time to time we scrap boards for not meeting 
> class 3 requirements called for by a customer, although they meet class 2.
> Microsectioning of class 3 boards calls for more samples than for 
> class 2
 
This is why I don't think we have a class 3 PCB but a class 2. Thank you to confirm my doubts.
 
 
If I have to sum-up : the manufacturer have no obligation to store any test report but it's a bit suspicious.
 
 
Thank you for your feedback
 
Regards,
 
Gorka
 
 

> Le 3 novembre 2015 à 22:51, Louis Hart <[log in to unmask]> a écrit :
>
>
> I was out yesterday and clearing the desk so far today, hence what may 
> seem like a slow response.
>
> You are correct, to my knowledge, about data retention of 6012 testing 
> - it depends on the company's procedures. If you want, I can provide 
> our record retention work instruction for a sample.
>
> Does the entry control department actually do a manufacturer audit on-site?
> (The name 'entry control department' is one I have not heard before.)
>
> How can you be sure? The flippant answer is you can be sure if you 
> witness the inspections and tests yourself. Regarding their existence, 
> I do not know why someone would prepare a report and not keep it for a 
> finite time. If a customer complains or questions what we have done, I 
> want to have some record that we at least know what we did and to have 
> evidence that we made every effort, even if our own records 
> demonstrate we made a mistake. Since some customers wait a year or 
> more before using boards we build, I would want to keep our records 
> for two years or more. (You remember I said we keep them for at least 
> seven years with the production travelers.)
>
> Is your board supplier charging the same price for class 2 and class 3 boards?
> That is hard to believe. As you see in 6012, the class 2 requirements 
> are easier to meet. From time to time we scrap boards for not meeting 
> class 3 requirements called for by a customer, although they meet class 2.
> Microsectioning of class 3 boards calls for more samples than for class 2.
> Louis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Gorka BIROT
> Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2015 7:50 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] TR: [TN] Class 2/3 test report traceability
>
> Louis,
>
> If I do understand well, the manufacturer has no obligation to store 
> the
> 6012 test reports and any data retention mainly depends on each 
> company quality procedures ?
>
> To be clear, the entry control department of my company does PCB 
> manufacturer auditing but they were not awared about 6012's tests described in table 4-3.
>
> How can I be sure that the PCB I designed meets the class 3 
> requirements if I can't check the reports (and if I have serious 
> doubts about their
> existence) and theirs frequencies ?
>
> One more hint: there is no impact on the price between a class 3 and 
> class 2 when we purchase a PCB....
>
> Gorka BIROT
> Embedded systems engineer
> [log in to unmask]
>
>
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Louis Hart [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Envoyé : vendredi 30 
> octobre 2015 23:21 À : Gorka BIROT <[log in to unmask]> Objet : 
> RE: [TN] Class 2/3 test report traceability
>
> Good question. IPC does not, to my knowledge, which is not slight, 
> define any retention period. We keep traveler packages for a minimum 
> of seven years. These packages contain the final inspection checklist, 
> certificate of electrical test, certificate of conformance, and 
> microsection report. The microsection coupon mounts we keep for a 
> minimum of three years, along with the un-sectioned coupons.
>
> IPC-9252, the electrical test specification to which IPC-6012 refers, 
> defines information required on a certificate of test, which you might 
> call a specification regarding traceability.
>
> Has a manufacturer in fact said "we are certified for class 3 production"?
> Or are you anticipating such a response? I would answer with a question:
> "What does 'certification' mean, and who 'certified' you?" I might 
> also ask, "Why do you prepare reports if you are not going to keep 
> them?" (What do they mean by "reports"?) It would make more sense to 
> have operators and inspectors just sign the various production and 
> inspection steps on the traveler.
>
> IPC offers 'validation services', directed by Randy Cherry, with 
> validated companies listed here: 
> http://www.ipcvalidation.org/html/list.htm Validation services started 
> in 2013, I think, so only a few companies are on the list and none are 
> 6012 validated as I see it. My understanding is that 6012 validation 
> has only been possible starting early this year. I believe a company 
> can be validated to class 2 or 3, in the context of various technology parameters.
>
> IPC-6011 describes 'qualification', but such qualification is based on 
> a demonstration agreed to by the supplier and customer, if my 
> understanding is correct.
>
> Certifications or qualifications to ISO 9000 or MIL-PRF-31032 I do not 
> consider impressive, although they do indicate at least some minimal 
> level of competence. I tell people, if you are concerned about a 
> printed circuit board supplier, you better go have a look for 
> yourself. Fabrication of printed circuit boards is not nearly as easy 
> as at lot of people think it is. Louis
>
> ______________________

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