Something more to think about over a breakfast of whole wheat toast and coffee, or a bagel with peanut butter or orange marmalade, or a caramel pecan cinnamon roll, or….…☺.
None of those are remotely possible without propane unless perhaps we return to the days of the home mill and oven hearth. I know because I am old enough to remember those as a child. (I am really old, I guess). I recently had the pleasure of talking to relatives back at our family homestead in Stadheim i Vik, Norway recently, and guess what? They still embrace that tradition in many homes. Many grind their own flour, corn meal, etc. They sent me some and I made the most delicious waffles with cloudberry jam and brown cheese I could ever hope to eat in my little hytte, AND I got to sit directly across the table from the prettiest girl in Oslo! And we kept warm with….propane! OMG! I’m going straight to Hell, aren’t I? You bet I am, that’s a nice town not too far away with some good bands.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRzZnDbo9RY
From: Steve Gregory [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2014 2:47 PM
To: TechNet E-Mail Forum; Stadem, Richard D.; [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] NTC - I believe ... (my credo)
Hi Richard,
Thank-you for posting that.
And Joe, one of more lucid rants I've seen on the issue. Thank-you...
Steve
On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 1:29 PM, Stadem, Richard D. <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
While I do agree with Tim on a lot of the points he made and I certainly respect his knowledge, I just wanted people like Joyce and Tim to understand that their lives are completely different than 90% of the people in the world. There are many exceptions that have to be accommodated by certain people, and most of the world is far from the idyllic picture that was painted.
I bet neither one of them ever had to use 10 weight oil in their truck's cooling system because anti-freeze just cannot do the job at -50 degrees F. on the high plains for months on end. Wind power cannot not dry winter wheat in January or February, nor will it thaw the ground.
A "credo" is useless if it is out of touch with reality.
-----Original Message-----
From: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> [mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>]
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2014 2:06 PM
To: Stadem, Richard D.
Subject: Re: [TN] NTC - I believe ... (my credo)
AMEN to that! I have farmed all my life and that natural gas is essential for proper drying of corn and soybeans going into storage as well. In a year like this one where the world seems to have taken a sabbatical on warming and decided to be cool (at least in my neck of the woods), the crops aren't likely to be as dry coming out the field. Too many cool days. We've had a lot of seventy-five degree days this Summer. Usually, we have a lot of ninety degree days in the Summer here. So I expect to see a lot of grain drying (natural gas) this year if this cool trend continues.
As you say Mr. Stadem, Cyprus is very different compared to the USA.
Personally, the jury is still out for me on the whole issue of global warming. First, it was called "global warming", but now "climate change".
Climate change seems harder to argue against given that climates do indeed
change. Heck in Indiana, climates change daily. I don't know that the
science is settled as many like to think. As a scientist, I am skeptical when such a claim is made that the science is settled. I am not so sure we
(man) have enough data collected to really understand how the earth changes.
Perhaps these are normal trends and the earth is going through an adjustment period. To say that such science is settled and to propose such extensive changes given the lack of comparable energy replacements is irresponsible in my view. Green Energy also has its costs. I have been in a wind farm battle for the last year and a half. EON Climate and Renewables, a wind developer, wanted to place 500 ft wind towers within 1500 ft of area homes.
Our county has 220 residents per square mile. We would have effectively become the densest area they ever populated such devices in. These units were anything but "green". They were highly inefficient AND were being populated in an area that, according to the US Dept of Energy, was poor to marginal for wind potential. So why in my area? That's easy, government subsidies and a feel could statement for our local and state elected leaders that we were a "green" energy producer. This was a sham and I am disgusted at the lack of common sense. It is as if common sense has been thrown out with the bath water. We won our fight as of last week. It boiled down to money. Once we figured out the money and given it was an election year for a couple key officials, it wasn't too hard to put this issue to bed. Europe as I understand is moving away from wind. For good reason, it just can't supply the demand and storage of such energy is not adequate for long term.
While a Utopic view feels good. I wonder if the consequences of implementing what Brian suggests would lead to more catastrophic impacts on human life. Those already suffering from a poor standard living would never have the hope of stepping out from those conditions. Those that enjoy higher living standards would have to reduce their standard of living to
accommodate the cuts that are proposed. Both would have there costs. Mr.
Larson makes a strong case as well. Too ignore, political and economic impacts is irresponsible. For all of these changes to be implemented properly it would take a legislative body, whose purpose is to govern with humility and with respect for human life and the earth's resources. I look at all of the issues in my county, state, country and world and I figure, pretty confidently, that there are very few men or women that have the integrity to govern to the level likely needed for Brian's Utopic vision.
We can certainly be better stewards of our resources and we should be. But, let's be sure the data is right and has been properly collected and evaluated before we start imposing major changes on societies around the world. Also, " How any pressures will be applied to individuals, corporations or nations are not my concern but I hope my document will help decision-makers come to the right conclusions." is troubling. So if I understand this statement, by whatever means is necessary is not of concern.
Very troubling in my opinion.
Sorry for the monologue I read the post from Brain and saw yours and the farm reference caught my attention. Thank you for being a voice of reason.
Peace,
Joe Russeau
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stadem, Richard D." <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
To: <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2014 10:56 AM
Subject: Re: [TN] NTC - I believe ... (my credo)
> Yes, and continue to live your life under a bell jar on the Island of Nod.
> Tim, your "credo" is very nice, but why don't you spend a winter working a
> wheat farm on the plains of North Dakota or Manitoba and then tell us how
> you feel about natural gas after that. It is sort of different from
> Cyprus.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] On Behalf Of Larson, Mark
> Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2014 9:37 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: [TN] NTC - I believe ... (my credo)
>
> "I have deliberately avoided the political and economic aspects of the
> environment and energy.."
>
> yes, if you are going to attempt to create a Utopian world, it is best to
> ignore as much of reality as possible
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] On Behalf Of Wayne Thayer
> Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2014 8:51 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: [TN] NTC - I believe ... (my credo)
>
> Well stated. I'd include a heavy tax on cooling as well. Air conditioning
> has caused fundamental changes to our cultures, and most of them are not
> good. And as the temperature continues to rise, this segment of energy
> usage will rise disproportionately.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] On Behalf Of Brian Ellis
> Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2014 4:07 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: [TN] NTC - I believe ... (my credo)
>
> I have seriously updated my credo - http://credo.bnellis.eu/ - on
> environmental and energy matters, with links. As I mention in the
> introduction, this is Utopian but more than just a pious hope of what some
> may perceive as extremism; it is how I see our medium-term future, at
> least along general lines, no matter where we live.
>
> I have deliberately avoided the political and economic aspects of the
> environment and energy. This is because necessity will become the mother
> of the political and economic means to implement these measures,
> little-by-little, country-by-country. How any pressures will be applied to
> individuals, corporations or nations are not my concern but I hope my
> document will help decision-makers come to the right conclusions.
>
> This credo is published for the first time as a stand-alone document with
> its own one-page website. It is free-to-copy in its entirety but not for
> commercial purposes; it is not sponsored nor does it carry advertisements.
> It is not written in stone and I may modify, add or delete clauses at any
> time without notice; suggestions are always welcome.
>
> Please feel free to copy or link it.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Brian Ellis
>
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