Yes. Agreed. And you have to be careful to not accidently over-specify without a related real-world failure mode.
I think the "aggregate" rule is the best we are going to get. The real problem is convincing everyone that the latest revision of 6012 has well vetted specifications. While on the face of it there may be an appearance of lowering the bar, sometimes the ultimate quality authority on these contracts needs to dig deeper, or trust us :)
That said, if the supplier side wants to avoid things like CAF risk assessment at the time of capability assessment, qualification, or periodic conformance, then you've got a loose end.
To me, the most complicated part is rolling it all back around to the design standard.
Chris
-----Original Message-----
From: IPC-600-6012 [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Hill, Mike
Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2013 11:10 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [IPC-600-6012] Crazing
All,
I have been following this conversation for the last 7-8 days and it is apparent that even the PWB experts are having trouble defining wicking, crazing, glass fracturing and as such, the IPC-6012 committee needs to help the industry fill this gap by providing a lot more information and figures than we have ever anticipated.
Mike Hill
Quality Manager
Viasystems North America Inc.
www.viasystems.com
SOLUTIONS BEYOND LIMITS
1200 Severn Way; Sterling, Virginia 20166
Tel:703-652-2226 Mbl: 703-943-7091
[log in to unmask]
-----Original Message-----
From: IPC-600-6012 [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Denise Chevalier
Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2013 10:07 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [IPC-600-6012] Crazing
Sorry late to the party have been away from the office - the photos shown are in dark field and may exaggerate/skews the view of the condition. Think if we were to see in white light we may be more apt to see the true wicking and less of the magnification of the glass strands which is expected when viewed in dark field. Measurement of the wicking (copper seepage between the glass) in comparison to the copper thickness along the hole wall seems as it would meet the class 3 requirement. So basically I do not see anything wrong with this hole. If CAF is a concern perhaps the design needs to be reviewed to allow for more space between the hole and feature.
Denise
-----Original Message-----
From: IPC-600-6012 [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Paul Reid
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 12:41 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [IPC-600-6012] Crazing
Hi Joey,
Thanks for the input. Your opinion is important.
The thing is that, according to the specification wicking is the movement of liquid between the fibers. The specification then goes on the mention copper depositing. So if I call this defect wicking and the wicking extends to the end of the separation then this violates the wicking specification. If the wicking stops were the copper ends then this meets the specification.
I am sure that this is crazing.
Sincerely,
Paul Reid
Program Coordinator
PWB Interconnect Solutions Inc.
235 Stafford Rd., West, Unit 103
Nepean, Ontario Canada, K2H 9C1
613 596 4244 ext. 229
Skype paul_reid_pwb
[log in to unmask]
-----Original Message-----
From: IPC-600-6012 [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jose A Rios
Sent: December 6, 2013 11:53 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [IPC-600-6012] Crazing
.... and wicking ends where the plating along the fibers end....
Joey Rios
PWB & Process Quality Eng'r
i3 Electronics
1093 Clark St.
Endicott, NY 13760
Office: 607-755-5896; Cell: 607-206-3642
From: Bryan Clark <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>,
Date: 12/06/2013 11:19 AM
Subject: Re: [IPC-600-6012] Crazing
Sent by: IPC-600-6012 <[log in to unmask]>
Hi Paul
I hope all is well.
I would classify this defect as wicking and evaluate for acceptance as such.
Wicking starts at the drill process and is made worse during chemical processing.
I have attached the IPC 600 training materials for the wicking defects and more examples. This is an unacceptable condition.
Regards
Bryan Clark
FTG: Director of Corporate Quality
Firan Technology Group Corporation
250 Finchdene Square
Toronto, ON Canada M1X 1A5
FTG Circuits : (416) 299 4000 x222
FTG Aerospace: (416) 438 6076 x 368
C: (416) 678 9419
[log in to unmask]
www.ftgcorp.com
-----Original Message-----
From: IPC-600-6012 [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jose A Rios
Sent: December-06-13 10:40 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [IPC-600-6012] Crazing
hi paul, in my opinion, what you have here is an artifact of drilling; not a base material or lamination defect, which is how crazing is defined.
this artifact may only be visible in darkfield, normal lighting may not reveal it.
this artifact is further enhanced if etchback is used. its a wicking path that didnt plate up because its too deep.
wicking acceptance criteria is defined for the plated part, not the invisible path that remains....
this would pass group a (lot conformance), but may not perform well if caf tested.
Joey Rios
PWB & Process Quality Eng'r
i3 Electronics
1093 Clark St.
Endicott, NY 13760
Office: 607-755-5896; Cell: 607-206-3642
From: Paul Reid <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>,
Date: 12/06/2013 10:21 AM
Subject: Re: [IPC-600-6012] Crazing
Sent by: IPC-600-6012 <[log in to unmask]>
Hi Russ,
I'll try with this email. I think that IPC strips all attachments however.
Sincerely,
Paul Reid
Program Coordinator
PWB Interconnect Solutions Inc.
235 Stafford Rd., West, Unit 103
Nepean, Ontario Canada, K2H 9C1
613 596 4244 ext. 229
Skype paul_reid_pwb
[log in to unmask]
-----Original Message-----
From: IPC-600-6012 [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Russ Shepherd
Sent: December 6, 2013 9:42 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [IPC-600-6012] Crazing
Hi Paul,
Can you attach the photo to this email string?
Sincerely,
Russ Shepherd
Vice President of Operations
MICROTEK LABORATORIES
-----Original Message-----
From: IPC-600-6012 [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Paul Reid
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 5:34 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [IPC-600-6012] Crazing
Hi Russ,
Maybe you can help. How do I post pictures to the IPC site?
Sincerely,
Paul Reid
Program Coordinator
PWB Interconnect Solutions Inc.
235 Stafford Rd., West, Unit 103
Nepean, Ontario Canada, K2H 9C1
613 596 4244 ext. 229
Skype paul_reid_pwb
[log in to unmask]
-----Original Message-----
From: IPC-600-6012 [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Russ Shepherd
Sent: December 5, 2013 4:27 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [IPC-600-6012] Crazing
Crazing is an externally observable characteristic. If you see crazing in a microsection it would fall under laminate defects, such as delamination, laminate voids or cracks.
If you have a photo of the condition it might make it easier to comment on.
Sincerely,
Russ Shepherd
Vice President of Operations
MICROTEK LABORATORIES
-----Original Message-----
From: IPC-600-6012 [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Whittaker,
Dewey (EHCOE)
Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 1:13 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [IPC-600-6012] Crazing
Was the observation as received or after thermal stress?
Dewey
-----Original Message-----
From: IPC-600-6012 [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Paul Reid
Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 2:06 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [IPC-600-6012] Crazing
I was just on a conference call where we found crazing (a separation between glass fibers and the epoxy system), in a microsection. The fabricator stated that this had to be evaluated looking at a board macroscopically and could not be evaluated microscopically.
Crazing is called out in IPC-A- 600 in section 2, paragraph 2.3.2 page 18, which is "Externally Observable Characteristics". In A-600 there is picture of a microsection showing the defect but it states that a microsection is not required.
In IPC 6012-2010 crazing is call out in 3.3.2.2, page 12, which states (I am paraphrasing), "Crazing shall not violate greater than 50% of the distance between adjacent conductors..." The document then refers to IPC A 600.
What is your take on their argument that crazing should not be evaluated
microscopically as per IPC?
Sincerely,
Paul Reid
Program Coordinator
PWB Interconnect Solutions Inc.
235 Stafford Rd., West, Unit 103
Nepean, Ontario Canada, K2H 9C1
613 596 4244 ext. 229
Skype paul_reid_pwb
[log in to unmask]
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