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August 2013

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From:
Mike Fenner <[log in to unmask]>
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Date:
Mon, 19 Aug 2013 14:22:47 +0100
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A post script.
Coincidentally on a Triumph car forum a similar discussion about the
future produced this from a <40 years old member (who was asked for his
thoughts)

...With the greatest respect, the Forum type format is quite old fashioned
and not representative of how younger people use the Internet. If we had a
'Yoof' page on the forum it simply wouldn't be used as we would be using
Facebook instead. We are used to tagging each other in photo's, sharing
links quickly, sending event alerts to each others smartphones and chatting
live on instant messenger or writing on individual friends walls. Facebook
is more accessible and more a part of everyday life on the move for people
of my age...

I'm going to have a lie down now...


Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike [mailto:[log in to unmask]] 
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 9:07 PM
To: 'TechNet E-Mail Forum'; 'Steven Creswick'
Subject: RE: [TN] Refreshment

Whizzing through this and lots of interesting stuff. A few comments to add.
When I moved to manufacturing electronics industry from BBC in late 60s,
electronics was the place to be. Everything was to be discovered. So we grew
the industry, making it up as we went along. The industry was large and
growing with lots of money. But it was a lot simpler too so it was possible
to know your speciality and a lot of everything else as well. Networking was
everything and possible. 
Fast forward, the industry is mature, same as most of us. Electronics is
ubiquitous and cheap. Everything has a spec and a roadmap. There is little
to discover in conventional electronics except smaller faster cheaper - just
squeezing the last drop of performance and cost out.
IN Europe/US the industry is now much smaller and specialised - the
mainstream centre of gravity has moved away. The money and the young brains
are going elsewhere. Nano, Printed electronics/display technology, bio etc.
We also have to think that most people under the age of say 40 don't find
out stuff from forums, they use Facebook, instant messaging and stuff like
that. So are probably under represented on TechNet.
So far as making and understanding stuff is concerned, yes it is a concern
that young people today do not have the opportunities we had to make and
learn. Click http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raspberry_Pi to see one initiative
to give youngsters a modern equivalent.
For myself I fixed the practical side of stuff with my 2 sons like this: As
they grew to their late teens approaching driving age they were getting
bored going camping/kayaking with dad. So I bought an old wreck of a Triumph
Spitfire sports car and drove it on to my front lawn. Then we erected our
frame tent over it, [where it stayed for the next year]. Inside the three of
us took the car to bits and rebuilt it as new. When done they had learned a
lot of practical skills, budgeting, mechanics, electrical stuff, project
planning, patience, teamwork, how cars worked and all that stuff. 
Then they learned to drive and were able to learn - some of the time anyway
- in the car  they themselves had built.
This car rebuild featured heavily in their CV (resume) when time came to get
a job and was useful. Now they both live and work in Africa they still
benefit as they are competent bush mechanics and can fix most other stuff as
well.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Steven Creswick
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2013 6:04 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Refreshment

Ditto the erector set activities.  Could certainly learn a great deal about
mechanics in general.  My greatest fun came from taking TV and radios apart
and/or sometimes making them work again.  I remember one old TV where they
must have used acid core solder on the wiring.  Just touch any of the wires
going to the tuner and they would fall off.  Hopeless!

Big fun was finding a neon sign behind a guys shop that he was junking out.
20-30KV transformers make cool Jacob's ladders and absolute carnage as bug
zappers!  Never got bit!

I think the greatest instruction was having my father give me an old two
barrel carb and tell me to take it apart and put it back together again [it
was clean, or else my mother may have done the job that the sign
transformers did not...].  I ended up with a spare jet or two the first
time.  The float spring and valve seemed easy though.

Nowadays, all the underhood electronics are glued and plastic welded shut
and covered with elephant snot or parylene to protect the chips.  It just
isn't as fun ...   :-)

Good memories!  Thanks



-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Stadem, Richard D.
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2013 12:07 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Refreshment

What an excellent post! Don't forget the old Erector sets. I learned all
about electric current flow, polarity, power derating, etc., without even
realizing it. I remember taking the little battery-operated motors out of
toy cars and building a winch to hoist Lincoln logs. Building an electric
fence for the plastic cows using the Tyco train power supply was not such a
good idea, however, because my sister stepped on it and damn near
electrocuted herself. After that, my playtime was monitored for awhile.
Unfortunately, kids in the 80s and 90s only learned to play computer games.
Today they can program in C++ but if they need to change a tire or replace
the plug on an AC cord they're screwed.

-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of <Bruce Tostevin>
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2013 8:43 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Refreshment

Pat,

Both you and Doug make interesting points.  I think to some extent,
especially in electronics we've slowly become victims of our own successes
at microminiaturization and automation.  Most of us in the U.S.  grew up
with Heath, Eico and Knight kits for everything from stereo, ham and test
equipment to weather stations.  Allen Bradley, Mallory, JW Miller, RCA,
Motorola, TI and Stancor parts all had leads and terminals that could be
twisted, soldered or screwed together.  If Lafayette,  Radio Shack or the
local electronics store didn't have the capacitors, photocells, transistors,
logic devices and analog ICs you needed, there were plenty of places that
would sell you $10 worth of parts - no $50 minimum PO required.  In the day,
even walking around a Lafayette or RS was educational.  Old radios and TVs
were goldmines for  great useful parts. Sometimes you even got one of them
working again. 

Before the advent of the  microprocessor driven "CHECK ENGINE" light you
could mess around with  carburetors, pull out the tach-dwell & timing light
and actually work on and learn about the basic electronics behind an
ignition system and its relationship to the timing of the engine. Hobby and
trade magazines like Popular Electronics, Electronics Now, Radio-Electronics
(some of which are evolutions of the same magazine under different owners),
QST and the like were chock full of technical articles, Q & A columns,
build-it projects and their back pages filled with suppliers selling
everything from surplus military equipment to lasers.  

Much of this is gone now and the early hobbyist opportunities all that
infrastructure afforded gone with it.  Today in the era of unmarked 0603s,
0402s, barely manageable smt solid state devices and the limited usefulness
of point-point layout and wiring it's become far more difficult for a young
teen to start playing around with electronics on a bench at home.  While I'm
certainly not advocating a return to the "good old days",  it's
understandable how this has in part contributed to where we find ourselves
today in as, Doug wrote, trying " to capture the imagination of the youth to
combat the shortage of skilled labor," and your difficulty in finding analog
techs with a little experience. In some respects that early germination has
been stunted by the new technologies.  Nothing says, "I think there's a
problem with my circuit"  like overheated parts and melting wires on a
proto-board, and is as rewarding as figuring out the solution.

Bruce Tostevin
Benchmark Electronics
Nashua, NH

-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Pat Goodyear
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 10:21 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Refreshment

We have a couple of engineers that work with local high schools in robotics.
We are finding that finding I&C technicians that have skills to work on 
analog don't exist, there are no schools.    So we have been mentoring 
new-hires one on one to give them some basic skills.
Most of the equipment we use was designed in the late '60s with slide rules
and they try to engineer it to 6 decimal places and wonder why it won't work
too that accuracy.
Before I went out 3 months ago we were trying to reverse engineer a high
voltage power supply that wouldn't work as the vendor supplied it, needed to
turn off with an input controlled SCR but the supply had too much leakage
current to allow the SCR to fully shut off.


Analog techs are hard to come by.

pat

On Tue, Aug 13, 2013 at 2:57 PM, Stadem, Richard D. wrote:

> Amen! Excellent post, Doug!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Douglas Pauls
> Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 3:24 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Refreshment
>
> Ed,
> Ain't got a Harley (wish I did). Don't do a lot of internet surfing 
> (cause I end up on YouTube and days pass before I extract myself) Beer 
> drinkin' ain't nothing like college.  A 12 pack is a year supply for 
> me.  Six months if Hillman comes over.
>
> I think a lot of it depends on how your employer views STEM 
> initiatives. One of the things I really like about Rockwell Collins is 
> that they encourage (to varying extents) our engineers to work with 
> local schools to get the young enthusiastic about science and 
> engineering.  Might be FIRST Lego League, or FIRST Robotics Challenge.
> Might be the international rocket competition.  Dave and I do 
> something we call The Rockwell Road Show, which we do for anything 
> from pre-school to college.  We do 35-45 shows a year and the teachers 
> tell us that it shows the kids that the stuff they see in their books 
> is actually used in the real world.  Dave and I are also fortunate to 
> have a boss that lets us do that without worrying what time to charge 
> it too.  I think she knows that if Dave and I don't get out every once 
> in a while to have fun like this, we would explode.  Not a pretty 
> sight.  I understand 3M has a similar program called The Traveling 
> Wizards.  NASA has a treasure trove of neat information.  We have to 
> capture the imagination of the youth to combat the shortage of skilled 
> labor.
>
> What other things could we be doing to pass along to the next 
> generation? If you have chemical knowledge, volunteer to be a guest 
> speaker at your high school chemistry class.  Bet the teacher won't 
> turn you down.  There are series of fantastic chemical demonstration 
> from Dr. Bassam Shakhashiri, professor emeritus of UW Madison.  Be a 
> guest lecturer at the local university or tech college?  Many of you 
> may remember Dr. John Sohn, of Bell Labs.  When Lucent tanked, he took 
> the early buy out, went to college for a year, and has been teaching
> high school science classes and loving every minute of it.   Thinking 
> of doing the same myself, provided Hillman does not talk me into 
> something stupid and I die.
>
> Second, those who have been at IPC meetings know that Dave and I don't 
> do any work, but we are smart enough to hire exceptionally smart 
> college students as engineering co-ops.  These young men and women are 
> smarter than I ever remember being at that age.  Such a program allows 
> us to mentor the next generation and they often bring to us new 
> knowledge from their courses.  If your company does not have an active 
> engineering co-op program, it should have.  We would not accomplish a 
> tenth of what we do without them.  There was one semester where the 
> budget would not support having co-ops, no matter how much we argued.
> Six months later, our director wondered why we had not accomplished 
> much.  Cuz you took away our co-ops!  Are they that important?  Yes, 
> they are THAT important!!
>
> Does your company allow or encourage Job Shadows?  We do.  Let the 
> guidance counselors at your local high school know you are interested 
> and I bet you see a number of high school kids interested in STEM 
> jobs.
> I guess my point is that there are LOTS of thing we can all be doing 
> to help pass along the things we have learned to the next generation.
> But are we?
>
> Doug Pauls
>
>
>
> From:   Ed Popielarski <[log in to unmask]>
> To:     <[log in to unmask]>
> Date:   08/13/2013 02:49 PM
> Subject:        Re: [TN] Refreshment
> Sent by:        TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
>
>
>
> Hey, now! I'm a bona fide Harley ridin', interweb surfin',  beer 
> drinkin' rabble rouser, even at my advanced age (<60 mind you).
> I've taken a few under my wing and watched them leave the nest and 
> soar. Unfortunately, that seems to be happening less and less as time 
> goes on.
> Ed Popielarski
> Engineering Manager
>
>
>                                970 NE 21st Ct.
>                               Oak Harbor, Wa. 98277
>
>                               Ph: 360-675-1322
>                               Fx: 206-624-0965
>                               Cl: 949-581-6601
>
> 
> https://maps.google.com/maps/myplaces?hl=en&ll=48.315753,-122.643578&s
> pn=0.011188,0.033023&ctz=420&t=m&z=16&iwloc=A
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stadem, Richard D. [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 11:18 AM
> To: TechNet E-Mail Forum; Ed Popielarski
> Subject: RE: [TN] Refreshment
>
> Speak for yourself, Ed. Sounds like you have one foot in the grave 
> already.
> I know many "senior" engineers who have a very high level of energy, 
> have kept up with technology and science, including the 'net, and you 
> could not take their laptops away from them unless you pried their 
> cold dead fingers from it. They are enthusiastic, work well with folks 
> from all age groups, and are eager to share their experience and 
> knowledge as well as learn from the freshly recruited grads. While it 
> is true that the new grads are coming online with certain skills and 
> tools not known or understood by some of the older folks, they are no 
> less enthusiastic and eager to solve today's problems, and they do 
> their pioneering and thinking outside the box just as well as anybody, 
> in fact, perhaps even more so.
> They just need the proper coaching and encouragement, and 99% of them 
> are ready and willing to step up and start hitting homeruns right 
> where you left off. It is up to us to help them, learn from them, 
> teach them what they are willing to learn from us, and then we all 
> benefit.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ed Popielarski
> Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 10:33 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Refreshment
>
> Inge,
>
> I, too, have noticed the gradual fade, and it's my opinion we, 
> ourselves, are to blame. Similar to what has happened inside NASA, the 
> "pioneers" that sculpted the industry are dead, dying, retired and 
> tired. We as a society failed to properly backfill with fresh talent 
> and the methodology of upstarting engineering grads is much different 
> than "in our day". Seems to me the new generation engineers have 
> developed a love affair with their desktop computers and the internet 
> (something that didn't even exist when we were sprouting wings) and 
> "we" collectively, are transforming to a more digital existence, as 
> opposed to the hard, wet, hot physical realm. As this evolution 
> proceeds, much of the pioneering spirit is lost, as well as the 
> good-old-fashioned "chutzpah" to "break outside the box, damn the 
> torpedoes, full speed ahead." Job preservation has become a primary 
> focus and this has really retarded the craft.
>
> Just my $0.0199999 and ventilation of an issue that I've been 
> containing for some time now.
>
> Ed Popielarski
> Engineering Manager
>
>
>                                970 NE 21st Ct.
>                               Oak Harbor, Wa. 98277
>
>                               Ph: 360-675-1322
>                               Fx: 206-624-0965
>                               Cl: 949-581-6601
>
> 
> https://maps.google.com/maps/myplaces?hl=en&ll=48.315753,-122.643578&s
> pn=0.011188,0.033023&ctz=420&t=m&z=16&iwloc=A
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Inge Hernefjord
> Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 3:00 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] Refreshment
>
> Technet, once a supernova...now just a fading sparkle. Time for 
> renaissence (french)? Blood transfusion? Vitamin therapy?  Dopamin 
> cure?
> .......zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, ...sorry....YYYAAAWN...
>
> Inge
>
>
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