Hmm, well I read the link and there's just an unsupported claim re global
warming. Somewhat irritated by data free assertions and claims, [some of
which are just lazy cut and paste repeats of stuff from earlier generation
machines [and barely true then]; and by the style of the document which
reads more like a fluffy puff for expensive cosmetics or health foods, I
went to the Galden website. They don't appear to give any data either. So I
googled around and could find no claims or statements re global warming in
any manufacturer's or supplier literature.
So I googled even more and eventually found
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=global%20warming%20galden%20reflow%
20fluid&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CEUQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.epa.gov%2Fsemicon
ductor-pfc%2Fdocuments%2Fpfc_heat_tranfer_fluid_emission.pdf&ei=EAfGUMCHFs31
4QTRnoCwDg&usg=AFQjCNFqKi9N5tsFzQIKN6F2voPhu-MlYQ&bvm=bv.1354675689,d.bGE
This is an EPA report confirming that old style liquids are bad for global
warming, but notes the manufacturers claim to have re-ordered the molecular
structures to reduce global warming potential, mentioning the kind of stuff
Brian was going into earlier. Whether these changes are beneficial and by
how much it doesn't say and though I follow the formulation changes I have
no idea whether they change anything or not. Report gives a link
(Unfortunately broken) to a reference which reportedly documents an
independent study into the actual improvements. There is also an Australian
report which gives numbers but no comparative data.
Then I gave up. You would think that suppliers would want to answer the GWP
charge with documented data, and make it readily available. Interesting that
they haven't but not necessarily sinister. I think a Scottish court would
say "Unproven".
Best Wishes
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Bob Landman
Sent: Monday, December 10, 2012 3:42 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Termination finishes, Cu thickness under Ag, Au-Pt-Pd
Galden makes such a fluid
http://www.circuitsassembly.com/cms/component/content/article/159/12347-vapo
r-phase-soldering
Bob Landman
H&L Instruments, LLC
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 10, 2012, at 9:28 AM, "Stadem, Richard D."
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Brian, the newer VPS fluids do not have the environmental issues.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brian Ellis
> Sent: Friday, December 07, 2012 2:41 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Termination finishes, Cu thickness under Ag, Au-Pt-Pd
>
> I agree with you, Bev. If you lose only 1 kg of the stuff this year, on a
linear scale (in reality exponential, but the difference is small), there
will still be about 990 g of it floating round the earth, warming it, 100
years from now, 980 g in 2 centuries, 900 g in 3012 and 500 g in somewhere
round 10012. In each year, in that time, your 1 kg will have the same effect
as if you had burnt fossil fuels producing about 10 tonnes (yes, 10,000 kg)
of CO2.
>
> Is that a legacy you want to leave your children, grand-children,
great-grand-children up to your great^25-grand-children?
>
> The problem is that the fluid has to be stable for more than 5 minutes
while boiling at the temperature of soldering and the vapour has to have
high density. These factors preclude any organic substance with a C-H
covalent bond or any element with a single electron missing (Group VIIB) in
its outer ring other than fluorine, which has an extremely tight bond. Even
chlorine, the next one down, has a weak bond which would be rapidly
destroyed at soldering temperatures, so would be useless for the job. This
implies that the substance must be perfluorinated, whether a complex alkane
or cyclic compound. The problem starts in that the covalent bond is so
darned strong that there is no widely available natural mechanism, such as
hydrolysis, to break the substance down; it requires pyrolysis at >1000°C to
do so. The occasional molecule may be split by a collision with a
high-energy radiated particle and this is why most perfluorinated substances
have atmospheric residence times of the order of thousands or tens of
thousands of years - without those odd collisions, the lifetime would be
infinite.
>
> In practice, as the perfluorinated substances are so inert, it is unlikely
they would bond with anything on a printed circuit assembly but the odd
molecules could be imprisoned in the molten flux residues or simply trapped
under components. This is why you lose your kg or so of fluid each year, no
matter how good your machine is at recovering as much vapour as possible,
either by long freeboard dwell times and/or vacuum extraction or other
mechanical means. This is inevitable. OK, one well constructed machine
produces a kg or so of losses per year and isn't going to make much
difference to the climate change caused by the teragrams of CO2 emitted by
us annually, nor is it likely to be restricting to lose a few hundred
dollars-worth of the stuff. If, as has been suggested, every assembly plant
in the world had one, then we are talking about hundreds of thousands of
such machines, some of them cheap and highly emissive, spewing out an
aggregate of many tonnes of the substances each year. It is conceivable that
this would overtake CO2 as the chief cause of the greenhouse effect, because
the atmospheric residence time of CO2 is of the order of a hundredth that of
the PFCs and is more easily sequestered, being ionically active in the
presence of water vapour.
>
> I therefore dispute, in the strongest possible terms, the contention that
vapour-phase soldering should be allowed to proliferate. Rather, it would be
wise to avoid it.
>
> There is also a political aspect to the question. As we have seen at Doha
recently, there is discord as to how to handle greenhouse gas emissions. It
is probable that we are at a turning point and that, in a year or two, the
nations will agree that something must be done to reduce GG emissions. This
will involve increasing regulation. CO2 will be difficult to regulate but
PFCs will be easy, just as the Montreal Protocol regulated CFCs. I foresee
that PFCs could be phased out from manufacture over, say, a five or ten year
period, at the end of which all the VP reflow machines will be worth only
their scrap metal value.
>
> Brian
>
> On 07/12/2012 03:03, Bev Christian wrote:
>> "No self-respecting electronics manufacturer should be without a
>> vapor-phase soldering machine in the facility."
>>
>> Sorry, I cannot agree. We tried one and then sent it back. We have a
>> ton of RF cans with small holes in them for underfill application.
>> The heat transfer liquid condensed inside the cans and we couldn't get
>> it out. It was still there days, probably weeks later and as has
>> already been noted the stuff is expensive. And how many of the
>> liquids being used are still incredibly excellent global warmers? I
>> haven't looked at their tech sheets lately.
>> Bev
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Stadem, Richard D.
>> Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2012 7:38 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [TN] Termination finishes, Cu thickness under Ag,
>> Au-Pt-Pd
>>
>> We have two vapor-phase reflow machines here at GD, and I work with
>> VPS at other companies in the area. The ones we use are from R&D.
>> http://www.rdtechnicalservices.com/System-RD2.cfm
>> We have an RD-1 and an RD-2, and I am supporting the installation of
>> an
>> RD-52 at another site, and have used all three machines at various
>> companies.
>>
>> No self-respecting electronics manufacturer should be without a
>> vapor-phase soldering machine in the facility.
>>
>> For high-mass, difficult-to-solder assemblies, VPS just cannot be
>> beat. VPS is also an excellent method for performing some of the more
>> advanced processes such as compliant lead attachment, BGA reballing,
>> CSP and flipchip reflow, etc. At one location we set up a really good
>> process for manufacturing PoP components, including the die-attach
>> where the die-bond epoxy is cured at the same time the die is
>> soldered. Having an oxygen-free atmosphere really helps.
>>
>> Also, I have found R&D to be a really good company, and the owner is a
>> real square shooter. They have great VPS machines and good service. I
>> don't have any experience with other VPS systems, so I cannot comment
>> on that. I have no financial interest in R&D, just a lot of good
experience.
>>
>> As with any VPS, proper maintenance is required. With condensation
>> soldering you will get a buildup of flux on the inside of the machine
>> and it must be kept clean. I strictly enforce a monthly maintenance
>> program, and if done diligently the machines will last a long, long
>> time. For the larger VPS systems a small chiller is usually required,
>> so keep that in mind when considering purchasing a system.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Robert Kondner
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2012 2:37 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [TN] Termination finishes, Cu thickness under Ag,
>> Au-Pt-Pd
>>
>> Inge,
>>
>> On the VPSsubject your comments echo what I have heard.
>>
>> Did you get some actual hands on time for experimentation? If so
>> what machine?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Bob K.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Steve Gregory
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2012 3:09 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [TN] Termination finishes, Cu thickness under Ag,
>> Au-Pt-Pd
>>
>> Hi Inge!
>>
>> Welcome back ol' buddy! I for one, have missed you here! Wish we could
>> get Paul to drop in once in a while. But I know that will be unlikely.
>>
>> Me a bagpipe blower? You have got to be kidding me! I don't even know
>> how to hold one of them things much less play one! They look kinda'
>> creepy to me...like an octopus or something. But when I hear "Amazing
>> Grace" being played on bagpipes, my heart pounds and I get goose bumps.
>>
>> I've not faded away, I'm still here, just don't have as much to talk
>> about as I used to. Anyways, this group has never been about any one
>> person, it's always been about all of us. Some have been here longer
>> than others, but what has made this email forum as solid and long
>> lasting as it has been, has been the contributions from everyone in
>> this group. I hope that this will continue.
>>
>> I'm dealing with what I guess you could call a "speed-bump" in my
>> life's road right now, but I plan on being here for a long time...
>>
>> Again, welcome back!
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Inge Hernefjord
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2012 11:55 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [TN] Termination finishes, Cu thickness under Ag,
>> Au-Pt-Pd
>>
>> Hi Wayne & collegues,
>>
>> heard from Joyce that you missed my comments. Sorry for that. When
>> Steve Gregory faded away as kind of bagpipe blower in the TN brigade,
>> I lost some contact with the troops march and became last one and with
>> time I saw the troops at distance. Well, with my old legs, seems as I
>> have to get lift with a jeep and catch up with you.
>>
>> On the theme you just discuss with Julie, I'd say to her not to mix
>> with changing the component finish immediately. Doing such things can
>> end in a never-ending-process. I am not updated with what is actually
>> going on, so my advice may not be of any help, but there is one
>> soldering method that have a very generous process window and that is
>> VPS, Vapour Phase Soldering. It has some very attractive advantages,
>> like instant and simultaneous heating, extremly low Oxygen presence
>> and is very fast. All properties that makes even many poor
>> weldable>acceptable weldable. You may not be able to try this, of some
>> reason. Just wanted to put up a finger and feel the wind direction
>>
>> Inge
>>
>> On 5 December 2012 00:41, Thayer, Wayne - IS
>> <[log in to unmask]>wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Julie-
>>>
>>> Sorry for the late response. I have a lot of experience with this or
>>> similar material. Yes, burnishing helps. I also deliberately use an
>>> iron tip that doesn't wet well. Paste with SMT works too, and is
>>> more controllable. We typically used the SnPbAg alloy with about
>>> 2%Ag, but I don't know if that helped. Our rule of thumb was you got
>>> three shots to solder to it, IF you used pre-heat and were very careful.
>>> BUT, this product is cake to solder to compared with AgPd, which most
>>> of the thick film commercial products used. That stuff would only
>>> survive a very carefully controlled single reflow.
>>>
>>> One thing we learned is that the leach rate SKYROCKETS if the
>>> designer put the PtPdAu directly on top of thick film Au where the
>>> solder was going to be. That recipe leaches just as bad as plain
>>> gold. The overlap MUST be behind a solder dam. (The thick film
>>> vendors only tell you this AFTER you figure it out on your own!) By
>>> the way, plain gold solders just fine on ceramic using SnAu eutectic
>>> solder. It is very expensive and is quite hot (270C or so). The
>>> joints are very pretty
>> shiny silver and very strong.
>>> You can also weld copper wires to thick film gold or silver.
>>> MiniCircuits
>>> sells piles of RF parts containing tiny transformers attached this
>>> way, and this technique is also used on RF inductors which are wound
>>> on an alumina mandrel.
>>>
>>> We ended up having a low temperature copper put on top of the gold
>>> whenever we could. It is much more robust--still wets horribly though!
>>>
>>> Wayne Thayer
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Steven Creswick
>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 8:59 AM
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: Re: [TN] Termination finishes, Cu thickness under Ag,
>>> Au-Pt-Pd
>>>
>>> Julie,
>>>
>>> Yes, the addition of a small amount of Pt does slow up the rate of
>>> the conductors leaching into the solder. From practical experience,
>>> the more Pt is added, the better the leach resistance. However, the
>>> more Pt is added, the greater are wetting problems.
>>>
>>> Thick film ink suppliers [used to] offer inks with different amounts
>>> of Pt so you could slightly 'chose your poison.'
>>>
>>> Also can depend on whether it is a fritted, or a frit-less, system.
>>>
>>> Like Mike says - BURNISH before solder IS the general rule!
>>>
>>> Never was something you really 'wanted' to solder to, unless you had
>>> no other choice.
>>>
>>>
>>> Steve Creswick
>>> Sr Associate - Balanced Enterprise Solutions
>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/stevencreswick
>>> 616 834 1883
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Julie Silk
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 8:02 PM
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: Re: [TN] Termination finishes, Cu thickness under Ag,
>>> Au-Pt-Pd
>>>
>>> The claim of the supplier is that the Pt prevents the Au from
>>> dissolving into the solder. Hmmm. Can anyone back that up?
>>> The recent info on this is that it's looking like a wettability
>>> problem more than a dissolving-into-the-joint problem, although
>>> neither is confirmed.
>>>
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