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December 2012

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Subject:
From:
Inge Hernefjord <[log in to unmask]>
Reply To:
TechNet E-Mail Forum <[log in to unmask]>, Inge Hernefjord <[log in to unmask]>
Date:
Fri, 7 Dec 2012 08:26:28 +0100
Content-Type:
text/plain
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text/plain (294 lines)
No self-respecting electronics manufacturer....I agree with both.  First
speaker is absolutely right , however, the problem is WHAT machine should
he select? There is no machine for all tasks. Bev happened to come in that
situation, probably because of a ignorant seller. With correct machine,
with correct parameters and correct tools you can solder anything. We VP
solder microelectronics with good result. But you need a lot of how-to.
Bev's parts may had been soldered perfectly with VVPS = Vacuum Vapor Phase
Soldering. We used to have one, but there has been changes since I worked
there.

http://www.ibl-loettechnik.de/downloads/Aktuelles/Todays%20Vapor%20Phase%20Soldering%20SMTAI%20Orlando%20-%20080820.pdf

Inge

On 7 December 2012 02:03, Bev Christian <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> "No self-respecting electronics manufacturer should be without a
> vapor-phase
> soldering machine in the facility."
>
> Sorry, I cannot agree.  We tried one and then sent it back. We have a ton
> of
> RF cans with small holes in them for underfill application.  The heat
> transfer liquid condensed inside the cans and we couldn't get it out.  It
> was still there days, probably weeks later and as has already been noted
> the
> stuff is expensive.  And how many of the liquids being used are still
> incredibly excellent global warmers? I haven't looked at their tech sheets
> lately.
> Bev
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Stadem, Richard D.
> Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2012 7:38 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Termination finishes, Cu thickness under Ag, Au-Pt-Pd
>
> We have two vapor-phase reflow machines here at GD, and I work with VPS at
> other companies in the area. The ones we use are from R&D.
> http://www.rdtechnicalservices.com/System-RD2.cfm
> We have an RD-1 and an RD-2, and I am supporting the installation of an
> RD-52 at another site, and have used all three machines at various
> companies.
>
> No self-respecting electronics manufacturer should be without a vapor-phase
> soldering machine in the facility.
>
> For high-mass, difficult-to-solder assemblies, VPS just cannot be beat. VPS
> is also an excellent method for performing some of the more advanced
> processes such as compliant lead attachment, BGA reballing, CSP and
> flipchip
> reflow, etc. At one location we set up a really good process for
> manufacturing PoP components, including the die-attach where the die-bond
> epoxy is cured at the same time the die is soldered. Having an oxygen-free
> atmosphere really helps.
>
> Also, I have found R&D to be a really good company, and the owner is a real
> square shooter. They have great VPS machines and good service. I don't have
> any experience with other VPS systems, so I cannot comment on that. I have
> no financial interest in R&D, just a lot of good experience.
>
> As with any VPS, proper maintenance is required. With condensation
> soldering
> you will get a buildup of flux on the inside of the machine and it must be
> kept clean. I strictly enforce a monthly maintenance program, and if done
> diligently the machines will last a long, long time. For the larger VPS
> systems a small chiller is usually required, so keep that in mind when
> considering purchasing a system.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Robert Kondner
> Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2012 2:37 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Termination finishes, Cu thickness under Ag, Au-Pt-Pd
>
> Inge,
>
>  On the VPSsubject  your comments echo what I have heard.
>
>  Did you get some actual hands on time for experimentation? If so what
> machine?
>
> Thanks,
> Bob K.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Steve Gregory
> Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2012 3:09 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Termination finishes, Cu thickness under Ag, Au-Pt-Pd
>
> Hi Inge!
>
> Welcome back ol' buddy! I for one, have missed you here! Wish we could get
> Paul to drop in once in a while. But I know that will be unlikely.
>
> Me a bagpipe blower? You have got to be kidding me! I don't even know how
> to
> hold one of them things much less play one! They look kinda' creepy to
> me...like an octopus or something. But when I hear "Amazing Grace" being
> played on bagpipes, my heart pounds and I get goose bumps.
>
> I've not faded away, I'm still here, just don't have as much to talk about
> as I used to. Anyways, this group has never been about any one person, it's
> always been about all of us. Some have been here longer than others, but
> what has made this email forum as solid and long lasting as it has been,
> has
> been the contributions from everyone in this group. I hope that this will
> continue.
>
> I'm dealing with what I guess you could call a "speed-bump" in my life's
> road right now, but I plan on being here for a long time...
>
> Again, welcome back!
>
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Inge Hernefjord
> Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2012 11:55 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Termination finishes, Cu thickness under Ag, Au-Pt-Pd
>
> Hi Wayne & collegues,
>
> heard from Joyce that you missed my comments. Sorry for that. When Steve
> Gregory faded away as kind of bagpipe blower in the TN brigade, I lost some
> contact with the troops march and became last one and with time I saw the
> troops at distance. Well, with  my old legs, seems as I have to get lift
> with a jeep and catch up with you.
>
> On the theme you just discuss with Julie, I'd say to her not to mix with
> changing the component finish immediately. Doing such things can end in a
> never-ending-process. I am not updated with what is actually going on, so
> my
> advice may not be of any help, but there is one soldering method that have
> a
> very generous process window and that is VPS, Vapour Phase Soldering. It
> has
> some very attractive advantages, like instant and simultaneous heating,
> extremly low Oxygen presence and is very fast. All properties that makes
> even many poor weldable>acceptable weldable. You may not be able to try
> this, of some reason. Just wanted to put up a finger and feel the wind
> direction
>
> Inge
>
> On 5 December 2012 00:41, Thayer, Wayne - IS
> <[log in to unmask]>wrote:
>
> > Hi Julie-
> >
> > Sorry for the late response.  I have a lot of experience with this or
> > similar material.  Yes, burnishing helps.  I also deliberately use an
> > iron tip that doesn't wet well.  Paste with SMT works too, and is more
> > controllable.  We typically used the SnPbAg alloy with about 2%Ag, but
> > I don't know if that helped.  Our rule of thumb was you got three
> > shots to solder to it, IF you used pre-heat and were very careful.
> > BUT, this product is cake to solder to compared with AgPd, which most
> > of the thick film commercial products used.  That stuff would only
> > survive a very carefully controlled single reflow.
> >
> > One thing we learned is that the leach rate SKYROCKETS if the designer
> > put the PtPdAu directly on top of thick film Au where the solder was
> > going to be.  That recipe leaches just as bad as plain gold.  The
> > overlap MUST be behind a solder dam.  (The thick film vendors only
> > tell you this AFTER you figure it out on your own!)  By the way, plain
> > gold solders just fine on ceramic using SnAu eutectic solder.  It is
> > very expensive and is quite hot (270C or so).  The joints are very
> > pretty
> shiny silver and very strong.
> >  You can also weld copper wires to thick film gold or silver.
> > MiniCircuits
> > sells piles of RF parts containing tiny transformers attached this
> > way, and this technique is also used on RF inductors which are wound
> > on an alumina mandrel.
> >
> > We ended up having a low temperature copper put on top of the gold
> > whenever we could.  It is much more robust--still wets horribly though!
> >
> > Wayne Thayer
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Steven Creswick
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 8:59 AM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: [TN] Termination finishes, Cu thickness under Ag,
> > Au-Pt-Pd
> >
> > Julie,
> >
> > Yes, the addition of a small amount of Pt does slow up the rate of the
> > conductors leaching into the solder.  From practical experience, the
> > more Pt is added, the better the leach resistance.  However, the more
> > Pt is added, the greater are wetting problems.
> >
> > Thick film ink suppliers [used to] offer inks with different amounts
> > of Pt so you could slightly 'chose your poison.'
> >
> > Also can depend on whether it is a fritted, or a frit-less, system.
> >
> > Like Mike says - BURNISH before solder IS the general rule!
> >
> > Never was something you really 'wanted' to solder to, unless you had
> > no other choice.
> >
> >
> > Steve Creswick
> > Sr Associate - Balanced Enterprise Solutions
> > http://www.linkedin.com/in/stevencreswick
> >                          616 834 1883
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Julie Silk
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 8:02 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: [TN] Termination finishes, Cu thickness under Ag,
> > Au-Pt-Pd
> >
> > The claim of the supplier is that the Pt prevents the Au from
> > dissolving into the solder.  Hmmm.  Can anyone back that up?
> > The recent info on this is that it's looking like a wettability
> > problem more than a dissolving-into-the-joint problem, although
> > neither is confirmed.
> >
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