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Subject:
From:
Bev Christian <[log in to unmask]>
Reply To:
TechNet E-Mail Forum <[log in to unmask]>, Bev Christian <[log in to unmask]>
Date:
Tue, 1 Nov 2011 21:12:51 -0400
Content-Type:
text/plain
Parts/Attachments:
text/plain (737 lines)
Chris,
We'll take a pass on the RIE method - the software is too expensive.  We are
trying the capacitance method. If things have changed, I'm sure Chris will
let us know.
Bev
RIM

-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Chris Mahanna
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 3:18 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] How do we determine the Maximum Acceptable Moisture
Content (MAMC) for a board?

Don't forget Mr. Kemp.

We have, from time to time, used much of 1601 to help customers.  It works,
but of course moisture manifesting as  problems is highly dependent on the
design.

Some complications come from moisture deep inside thick boards and the
insensitivity of the weigh-bake-weigh method.
The front runner for solving this problem is Dr. Hunt of NPL and the RIE
method:

http://alturl.com/5bnc2

We haven't been pushed to implement it yet.  Has anyone else?
If so, and if you're willing to share, please contact myself or anyone on
IPC 1-10C (coupons) or 7-11 (methods).


Chris

Chris Mahanna
Robisan Laboratory Inc.





-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Stadem, Richard D.
Sent: 2011/10/25 2:54 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] How do we determine the Maximum Acceptable Moisture
Content (MAMC) for a board?

I did my small share. But famous people with names like Bora, Christian,
Collier, Green, Hillman, Hunt, Kane, Mahanna, Schueller, White, etc. (even
the world-famous satirist Whittaker!) contributed. It should make the New
York Times bestseller list any day now. Hey, another new word!
R. Dean Stadem

-----Original Message-----
From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 1:11 PM
To: TechNet E-Mail Forum; Stadem, Richard D.
Subject: RE: [TN] How do we determine the Maximum Acceptable Moisture
Content (MAMC) for a board?

Dean Richard (sounds about right!),

Did you by any chance help author IPC-1601?  It has a familiar ring to
it.....

I have asked my admin to buy a copy the document as I have been having some
issues with sleepwalking lately.  I learned a new word today.

-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Stadem, Richard D.
Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 10:38 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] How do we determine the Maximum Acceptable Moisture
Content (MAMC) for a board?

Sorry, Patrick, but that will not work. Did you mean 100 deg. C?

For all of you with questions about baking, storage, handling, and packaging
of PWBs and CCAs, please read IPC-1601. It is an excellent source of
information on:
How to determine the RATE of moisture ingression for any PWB or CCA, as well
as various slash sheet materials.
How to condition a PWB or CCA to achieve its maximum saturated moisture
content (no, it cannot be done by immersion in water).
How to determine its RATE of moisture removal (the rate is important, not
the initial weight or final weight).
How to determine the OPTIMUM bake time and temperature for any given PWB or
CCA (customized for yours!).
How to RETAIN the level of dryness considered safe for reflow,
wave/selective soldering, and hand soldering.
Why a vacuum bake does little to help reduce the bake temperature/time, and
in fact may even damage the PWB/CCA beyond repair (especially if you leave
the vacuum in place and remove the heat).
Why a desiccator such as a McDry or Dr. Storage cabinet is a useful
(although not necessarily required) piece of equipment and should be present
in every assembly and fabrication house.
Why bake temperatures should not exceed 105 deg. C.

And a multitude of other useful tidbits of information. Get it today at
www.ipc.org while supplies last! Can't sleep at night? What better way of
achieving somnambulistic bliss could there be? Can you think of a drier
subject? The cost of this document is cheaper than any over-the-counter
sleep aid or any other method. Well, except maybe some great...never mind,
can't talk about that here.

dean


-----Original Message-----
From: Goodyear, Patrick [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 10:58 AM
To: 'TechNet E-Mail Forum'; Stadem, Richard D.
Subject: RE: [TN] How do we determine the Maximum Acceptable Moisture
Content (MAMC) for a board?

All,

While we don't make circuit boards we do do a lot of repair on vintage
circuit boards.  We are located on the Pacific coast RH runs around 80% or
higher.  We have a huge issue with measling on boards when we rework.
If we have time we put them in an oven at 150 deg for a day or so to dry
them out, when we can't we use a heat gun to raise a localized area to a
higher temperature to drive off the moisture, this works fairly well, but
issues still prevail.

One could put the boards in a vacuum chamber at a higher temp say 100 deg F.
something similar to an autoclave to dry the boards, I suppose they could
then be sealed with a moisture barrier, vacuum vapor impregnated, hmmm it
might work.

Pat

-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Stadem, Richard D.
Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 6:08 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] How do we determine the Maximum Acceptable Moisture
Content (MAMC) for a board?

Hi, Inge.
Delamination and measling still occur, but much more infrequently. I believe
this is simply due to a much more robust pre-preg quality in the market.
However, delamination does occur more frequently with polyimide slash types.
You just gotta pre-bake or you will eventually have issues.

And don't try to save money by buying PWBs from China. You will get
burned- big time. I have been getting calls quite frequently in the past
year to look at various lots of PWBs manufactured in China with all kinds of
quality issues. Problem is, some of the more reliable PWB companies have
attempted to form offshore partnerships in an effort to reduce costs and
become more competitive, but did not do their homework when selecting an
offshore supplier, and did not place a company rep at the site. PWB
suppliers never voluntarily reveal to their customer that they are buying
offshore. Invariably, poor workmanship and/or poor materials slip through
and are not detected until during manufacturing or after.

I am not saying all Chinese or all offshore PWB fabricators are of poor
quality, I am simply stating that there are a lot of companies out there
that make crap, and you have to be very careful of your PWB's pedigree.

Waterproof PWBs? I would need a lot of data to believe that claim.



-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Inge Hernefjord
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 4:43 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] How do we determine the Maximum Acceptable Moisture
Content (MAMC) for a board?

I forgot a question I had to you all:  how frequent is delamination (caused
by water vapour) nowadays. It's a long time since I heard of serious
problems. Perhaps one or two cases with a single board or two, but in a mass
production that would not be count as an issue.

IF delamination is much lower today, what is then the reason, and is the
improvement global or significant for a limited number of suppliers?
And also this (perhaps stupid) question: Has anyone seen boards marked
'waterproof' . I read somewhere about such boards and my guess is that the
boards were coated. But waterproof? Hmmm..

Inge



                              -------------------------

Hi all,

I think many industries make their decisions based on empirical data and own
experience.
My own opinion is, and few will agree, that the whole idea of a standardized
humidity level is disputable, because the humdity is not constant from x to
y, nor from Z 1 to Z2. Furthermore, the humidity is varying with time and
temperature, sometimes within seconds. Moreover we have the board's surface
condition, percentage of copper,  access to mobile ions and a lot more.
Which was pointed at by Dave
Hillman.

It all starts with the ability of water condensation on the surface followed
by the rate of penetration of gas and water vapor into the board structure.
The water content on the very surface is not included in the discussion,
because it's not relevant for the soldering process. It's the inside
accumulation of water that is the input for the standard.

To get knowledge of the water content, you 'simply' perform a weight control
of the board, starting with boards that have been in a humid atmosphere,
e.g. from stock or from a humidity test. Then you bake out the water and do
a weight control again. The diff is the water content.

Here starts the questions and the aquestionings. The bakeout is the first
problem, because you don't know how effective this process is. The actual
standard says, that we hope that at least 90 % of the water will find its
way out and disappear. But who knows. It's a question of the leakage of
water molecules through millions of micron sized pores in the epoxy
structure. And the one who has learned about the percolation of molecules
know that this is very complicated a thing. furthermore we have the
diffusion of water vapor through the same micron sized 'orifices', also a
far from easy to understand process. Depending on the charachter of these
labyrints, we have a variation of water escaping rate. Compare with the
water on the surface. Water molecules can stick to the outermost crystals as
billions of droplets, or cover the entire surface as one and a single one
water layer. The evaporation of water can vary a lot. Imagine what happens
when you clean your glasses. You breathe on them, water condensates in less
than  seconds, and you have some more seconds to rapidly wipe the glass with
a tissue. If you are late, you'll see how the water leaves rapidly.  If you
do the same on a sheet of plastic, the water film can stay for minutes.
Likewise, the transportation of water from the inner regions of a PWB can
vary a lot, depending on what base material is used, number of copper
layers, reinforcement materials etc. Some water can be so bound to the
structure by the capillary force, that it's nearly impossible to get rid of
it. There is a lot more to say, but I stop here (to the relief of many).



Now, what about the small activity with small resources for analysis and
advanced incoming inspection? They have no idea about the water content
Perhaps a passus in the purchase  handling. Yes, it's one way. Another way
is to look back and see how their products behave in a long term. A further
way is to avoid long storage before soldering. Perhaps they have someone who
knows a little about nature's behaviour, i.e. the ambition to get a state of
equilibrium. If you have 50% RH in a room and put a PWB on the desk,
humidity will increase in the board until there is an equality on inside vs.
outside. How fast?   It depends on how many PTHs you have, o how many
vias
and how  the edges of the board are humidity inlets.  One way to get an idea
is to create buried capacitors in the PWB, expose the board to humidity and
measure the capacitance change vs. time.  You'd be surprised how fast
humitity gets on inside of a board. Halfways to quilibrium can occur from 10
hs to 100 hs. So, a board that has been lying for weeks in a humid store,
may hold  such a lot of water, that you are far from 0.1 wt% after bakeout.
You may have 0.5 wt%, 1 wt% or more. Without knowing. Tests on a variety of
boards gives that equilibrium is obtain after as short a time as a few hours
to as long long a time as one year!


So, that's why I wonder with what confidence we follow the 0.2 % rule.
With all respect to those who work with the IPC norms. Am not against, nor
pro.

End of old man's gagging

Inge

PS, If you don't have Chris Hunt's splendid report (he is a TN member), I
got it. Title: Moisture Measurements in PCBs and Impact of Design on
Desorption Behaviour.  Not a paper with pages and pages with maths that you
don't understand, but a language and with  illustrations that explains
complicated things so even a gaga like me can melt.

Inge


- Show quoted text -
On 23 October 2011 00:03, David D. Hillman <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

Hi Rigo - yes, Doug would give you the standard " it depends" response
because as you detailed,there are too many inputs to your question. The
reason that the IPC-1601 committee only put suggested values in the standard
is that clear, data determined, industry wide applicable values for
requirements could not be established. The committee is continuing to
investigate, research and gather published data on that task.
Establishing industry wide applicable values is a difficult task as the
committee does not want to impose any requirements that are not based on
data and are not value added for the industry.

Dave Hillman
Rockwell Collins
[log in to unmask]





"Garcia, Rigo (GSFC-300.0)[MANTECH SRS TECHNOLOGIES]"

<[log in to unmask]>
Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
10/21/2011 01:31 PM
Please respond to
TechNet E-Mail Forum <[log in to unmask]>; Please respond to

"Garcia, Rigo (GSFC-300.0)[MANTECH SRS TECHNOLOGIES]"

<[log in to unmask]>


To
<[log in to unmask]>
cc

Subject
[TN] How do we determine the Maximum Acceptable Moisture Content (MAMC)

for a board?






Hi everybody,

Does anybody know how do we determine the Maximum Acceptable Moisture
Content (MAMC) for a board?

I understand that IPC-1601 states that for most designs a MAMC between 0.1%
and 0.5% of moisture weight to resin weight is adequate. However, it does
not describe the basis to establish the range. I can think of many variables
that can affect this number like minimum pitch, voltage across, component
clearance, whether the board gets conformal coating or not, etc.
I would like to know if anybody knows of a safe method to determine the MAMC
for a given board.

Paul... I can already see your "it depends" coming... :)!

Thanks for the help!

Rigo Garcia

Sr. Quality Assurance Engineer
Workmanship Standards, Code 300
NASA, Goddard Space Flight Center
Greenbelt, MD  20771
Phone. (301) 286-6129
Fax.       (301) 286-6576


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On 23 October 2011 07:31, Reuven Rokah <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Hi Bev,
> You can check the graph for vapor pressure (psi) vs temp. of Werner's
> white paper for PCBs.
> I believe this graph is based on experimental measurements. I assume
> that there are more factors (than the PV formula) influencing the
> vapor pressure inside the PCB layers during reflow.
> Reuven
>
> On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 3:48 PM, Bev Christian
> <[log in to unmask]>wrote:
>
> > Reuven,
> > I respectfully disagree.  Even if we assume a peak reflow
> > temperature for eutectic tin/lead solder of only 205C and a high
> > 260C for SAC305 the
> vapor
> > pressure due to trapped air and/or moisture is still not going to
double.
> >
> > P1V1=n1RT1
> > P2V2=n2RT2
> >
> > R = a constant
> > n1 = n2
> > V1 = V2
> >
> > Leaving
> > P1/P2 = T1/T2
> >
> > 300/P2 = (205+273)/260+273)
> >
> > P2 = 300*533/478
> >
> > P2 = 334  That is only an 11% increase.
> >
> > Not sure where the 300 came from in the first place, but no matter
> > what number you start with, it does not double.
> >
> > Bev
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Reuven Rokah
> > Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 5:03 AM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: [TN] How do we determine the Maximum Acceptable
> > Moisture Content (MAMC) for a board?
> >
> > Hi Garcia,
> > You didn't mention the most important variable: the process
> > technology,
> the
> > vapor pressure (300 to 650 psi) of Lead free is more than double
> > than Leaded process at the reflow peak temp.
> > the MAMC for Leaded process should be 0.20% and for Lead Free 0.17%.
> (ref.
> > Werner Engelmaier PCB FAB Notes).
> > Reuven
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 8:31 PM, Garcia, Rigo (GSFC-300.0)[MANTECH
> > SRS TECHNOLOGIES] <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi everybody,
> > >
> > > Does anybody know how do we determine the Maximum Acceptable
> > > Moisture Content (MAMC) for a board?
> > >
> > > I understand that IPC-1601 states that for most designs a MAMC
> > > between
> > 0.1%
> > > and 0.5% of moisture weight to resin weight is adequate. However,
> > > it
> does
> > > not describe the basis to establish the range. I can think of many
> > variables
> > > that can affect this number like minimum pitch, voltage across,
> component
> > > clearance, whether the board gets conformal coating or not, etc. I
> would
> > > like to know if anybody knows of a safe method to determine the
> > > MAMC
> for
> > a
> > > given board.
> > >
> > > Paul... I can already see your "it depends" coming... :)!
> > >
> > > Thanks for the help!
> > >
> > > Rigo Garcia
> > >
> > > Sr. Quality Assurance Engineer
> > > Workmanship Standards, Code 300
> > > NASA, Goddard Space Flight Center
> > > Greenbelt, MD  20771
> > > Phone. (301) 286-6129
> > > Fax.       (301) 286-6576
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________________________
> > > ____ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security
> > > System.
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> > [log in to unmask]
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> > > -----------------------------------------------------
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > *Reuven Rokah*
> >
> > Mobile: 972-52-60-120-18
> > Tele-fax: 97239360688
> > <http://www.rokah-technologies.com/>[log in to unmask]
> > [log in to unmask]
> > www.rokah-technologies.com
> >
> > **
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> > -----------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
>
>
> --
>
> Best Regards,
>
> *Reuven Rokah*
>
> Mobile: 972-52-60-120-18
> Tele-fax: 97239360688
> <http://www.rokah-technologies.com/>[log in to unmask]
> [log in to unmask]
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>
> **
> This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains
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______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
For more information please contact helpdesk at x2960 or [log in to unmask] 
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---------------------------------------------------
Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 16.0
To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in
the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet
To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL)
To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest
Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives
For additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815
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