You are lucky. No Big Bad Wolf chasing you.

Inge

On 4 May 2011 00:43, Bev Christian <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Inge,
> Hey! Laura Turbini, Joyce Koo and I are still Quality and people in our
> company KNOW we are still here!
> Bev
> RIM
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Inge H
> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 3:59 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] "The Curse of IPC-A-610 and IPC-J-STD-001" - opinion
> piece
> by James Smith
>
> .....quality teams...! Do they still exist? When I was young, they were
> semper fi. Nowadays more like semper fin. The quality engineer was highly
> respected, not to say dreaded. Not seldom he reported directly to the head.
> The q guys today are often reduced to shy people anxious not to disturb and
> without the authority that comes after many, many years of sniffing machine
> oils.
> I hope on the return of Yoda.
> Inge
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Whittaker, Dewey (EHCOE)" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 4:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [TN] "The Curse of IPC-A-610 and IPC-J-STD-001" - opinion
> piece
>
> by James Smith
>
>
> The 5 S principles have had that effect on a lot of floors.
> Nice to find you in good spirits.
> Dewey
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian Ellis [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 10:58 PM
> To: TechNet E-Mail Forum; Whittaker, Dewey (EHCOE)
> Subject: Re: [TN] "The Curse of IPC-A-610 and IPC-J-STD-001" - opinion
> piece by James Smith
>
> The bar seems to raise itself at times, after the sixth single malt. As
> for the floor lowering, five suffice before it moves all over the place.
>
> Brian
>
> On 02/05/2011 20:30, Whittaker, Dewey (EHCOE) wrote:
> > Even with the best intent on your part to justifiably "raise the bar",
> > this is a potentially false perception due to your supply chain
> > implementing a "lowering of the floor" strategy.
> > This is on a par with me trying to explain how clever and witty
> > "Deweyisms" are to someone when English is not their native language.
> > Dewey
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brooks, Bill
> > Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 9:52 AM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: [TN] "The Curse of IPC-A-610 and IPC-J-STD-001" - opinion
> > piece by James Smith
> >
> > I have been 'listening' to this thread and it kind of struck a nerve.
> > 'Designing to minimums' or to 'just meet a spec'.  Not just meeting
> > minimums on the low side of the 'bell curve'... but DESIGNING to the
> > minimums... I have seen this happen a number of times where someone
> > reads a MIN. requirement spec and then designs to it. WRONG! Only
> > inexperienced folks who don't understand tolerances' do this sort of
> > thing.
> > When we train PCB designers we drill it into their heads... don't
> forget
> > the tolerances. Worst case means WORST case....even after everything
> > else has gone to the extreme limits... If you want reliability you
> need
> > to design in some 'de-rating' into your tolerance calculations... give
> > yourself some 'head room' for things to go wrong... a good design will
> > still fly even if everything else has failed... by design. It doesn't
> > happen by accident.
> >
> > I believe board manufacturers use the IPC standards as a way to
> commonly
> > agree what minimum acceptance they can 'get away with' process-wise...
> > but if their customers aren't designing their products to achieve the
> > results needed then they are going to just make a lot of scrap.
> > Tolerances statistically will get you every time!
> >
> > Maybe what this guy James Smith was 'trying' to say is, (even though
> he
> > did it badly), that he needs to 'raise the bar' of the design higher
> > because he is seeing the quality of the boards coming in and they
> aren't
> > acceptable to him or his company... even though they are meeting the
> IPC
> > standards. Maybe he needs to hold his vendors to a 'higher standard'
> or
> > or rather a higher design requirement... ??? Typically when the min
> > requirements stated in an IPC standard are not acceptable to us for
> our
> > product, we put an exclusion or acception in the notes of the drawing
> to
> > say how our requirements differ from the spec. IPC specs are a
> > baseline... from there you can design in the higher quality through
> your
> > DESIGN requirements. DON'T design to the minimums... BAD DOG... TIME
> > OUT... NO COOKIE...
> > Frankly, James is blaming the wrong guys... it's not the IPC
> > standards... it the design and quality teams not setting the
> > requirements high enough for his product.
> >
> > Imho :)
> >
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> >
> > Bill Brooks | Datron World Communications, Inc.
> > PCB Designer/Engineer | Office: 760-602-7004| Fax: 760-597-3777 |
> > [log in to unmask]
> > 3055 Enterprise Court, Vista, CA 92081 | www.dtwc.com
> >
> > Performance You Require. Value You ExpectTM
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Woolley, Mark D.
> > (Mark)
> > Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 7:16 AM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: [TN] "The Curse of IPC-A-610 and IPC-J-STD-001" - opinion
> > piece by James Smith
> >
> > Sorry, Let me try again.  (I don't know what happened the last time.)
> >
> > Being a slave to "Standards" is not where we should be as an industry.
> > The "standards" are, in reality, minimum acceptable criteria.  I often
> > hear manufacturers state that they build to a standard or their
> product
> > meets the "standards."
> >
> > However, as I inspect these products per the same standards (mostly
> > IPC-A-600 and IPC-A-610), I see that while the product might meet the
> > "Standards" it was manufactured along the minimum edge of
> acceptability
> > per the standard.
> >
> > An example: Visible, opaque particulates embedded in the solder mask
> > might meet the IPC-A-610 standard if they do not encroach on certain
> > areas of the PWB.  But what does finding multiple occurrences of
> > particulates in the solder mask mean in terms of the PWB manufacturing
> > quality?  Unless you are dealing with military classes, in mass
> > production a close visual inspection can only be performed on a
> limited
> > number of units. If those units barely meet the standard what does
> that
> > indicate about the remainder?  (How many particulates might be
> embedded
> > within the PWB layers where they are not readily visible?  And of
> these
> > how many could eventually cause a short?)
> >
> > Meeting the Standards is not sufficient to build a reliable product.
> > The standards must always remain as the minimum acceptable criteria
> not
> > as the expected mean or median product.
> >
> > The IPC committees put long hours into each specification to clarify
> > points and make the items as understandable as possible.  IPC-A-610E
> > (and later revisions) is a great asset.  Pictures showing both the
> good
> > and the bad are presented.  But never is it stated in the
> specification
> > (that I have read) that a process that consistently produces products
> at
> > the edge of acceptability (per the standard) is acceptable to
> industry.
> >
> > Having said that I must agree with Brian's statement:
> >
> > "In short, Standards, used appropriately, can help, as far as
> possible,
> > to perfect reliability for a given application. Used inappropriately,
> > they can drive up costs dramatically ..."
> >
> > There needs to be common sense in the application of the standards,
> both
> > from a user and a manufacturer point of view.  Customers' don't want
> > manufacturers to hide behind the "Standards' Wall" when confronted
> with
> > issues with their products.  And the products should be manufactured
> in
> > a manner that places only the smallest percentage, (ideally none) of
> > products below these limits.
> >
> >
> >
> > mark
> > Mark Woolley |PTRL Laboratory | Avaya | 1300 West 120th Ave |
> > Westminster, CO 80234  USA |
> > Voice (Lab): (303) 538-2166 | email: [log in to unmask] |
> >
> >
> > ----
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