Ah hah! Maybe you have put your finger on a good point, Doug. Have the
mandatory audits for ISO-900x and ISO-1400x etc. not formalised the
mindset of the process people that they now conflict with "normal"
dialogue in the striving to a better quality at a lower cost??? And with
common sense?
Brian
On 04/05/2011 15:47, Douglas Pauls wrote:
> Ahhhh, good point Graham. I forgot that common sense is a lot more common
> in Canada. Haven't heard anyone asking for the birth certificate of your
> Prime Minister......
>
> On the other hand, Hillman and I (and our group in general) have saved the
> collective arses of many programs, and have patiently explained materials
> science to many individuals. Consequently, we are considered (by most) to
> be allies and welcomed. But when we go wandering around with clip boards
> in hand, "walking the process", the eyes start nervously darting, people
> tense up. I swear I need to make a sign to hang around my neck "I AM NOT
> AN AUDITOR". The point being that Quality personnel are not viewed as
> favorably as they once were in most places.
>
> Doug Pauls
>
>
>
> [log in to unmask]
> 05/04/2011 07:33 AM
>
> To
> "TechNet E-Mail Forum"<[log in to unmask]>,<[log in to unmask]>
> cc
>
> Subject
> RE: [TN] "The Curse of IPC-A-610 and IPC-J-STD-001" - opinion piece by
> James Smith
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Now Doug, how could anyone view Bev, Laura, or Joyce with suspicion???
> That would be like treating the pope with suspicion... what is he hiding
> in that hat???
>
> regards,
> - Graham
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Douglas Pauls
> Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2011 9:29 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] "The Curse of IPC-A-610 and IPC-J-STD-001" - opinion
> piece by James Smith
>
> Ahhhh, but the question is, are you viewed as allies or viewed with the
> same suspicious air as outside auditors (the enemy)?
>
> Doug Pauls
>
>
>
> Bev Christian<[log in to unmask]>
> Sent by: TechNet<[log in to unmask]>
> 05/03/2011 06:43 PM
> Please respond to
> TechNet E-Mail Forum<[log in to unmask]>; Please respond to
> Bev Christian<[log in to unmask]>
>
>
> To
> <[log in to unmask]>
> cc
>
> Subject
> Re: [TN] "The Curse of IPC-A-610 and IPC-J-STD-001" - opinion piece by
> James Smith
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Inge,
> Hey! Laura Turbini, Joyce Koo and I are still Quality and people in our
> company KNOW we are still here!
> Bev
> RIM
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Inge H
> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 3:59 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] "The Curse of IPC-A-610 and IPC-J-STD-001" - opinion
> piece
> by James Smith
>
> .....quality teams...! Do they still exist? When I was young, they were
> semper fi. Nowadays more like semper fin. The quality engineer was
> highly
> respected, not to say dreaded. Not seldom he reported directly to the
> head.
> The q guys today are often reduced to shy people anxious not to disturb
> and
> without the authority that comes after many, many years of sniffing
> machine
> oils.
> I hope on the return of Yoda.
> Inge
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Whittaker, Dewey (EHCOE)"<[log in to unmask]>
> To:<[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 4:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [TN] "The Curse of IPC-A-610 and IPC-J-STD-001" - opinion
> piece
>
> by James Smith
>
>
> The 5 S principles have had that effect on a lot of floors.
> Nice to find you in good spirits.
> Dewey
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian Ellis [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 10:58 PM
> To: TechNet E-Mail Forum; Whittaker, Dewey (EHCOE)
> Subject: Re: [TN] "The Curse of IPC-A-610 and IPC-J-STD-001" - opinion
> piece by James Smith
>
> The bar seems to raise itself at times, after the sixth single malt. As
> for the floor lowering, five suffice before it moves all over the place.
>
> Brian
>
> On 02/05/2011 20:30, Whittaker, Dewey (EHCOE) wrote:
>> Even with the best intent on your part to justifiably "raise the bar",
>> this is a potentially false perception due to your supply chain
>> implementing a "lowering of the floor" strategy.
>> This is on a par with me trying to explain how clever and witty
>> "Deweyisms" are to someone when English is not their native language.
>> Dewey
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brooks, Bill
>> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 9:52 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [TN] "The Curse of IPC-A-610 and IPC-J-STD-001" - opinion
>> piece by James Smith
>>
>> I have been 'listening' to this thread and it kind of struck a nerve.
>> 'Designing to minimums' or to 'just meet a spec'. Not just meeting
>> minimums on the low side of the 'bell curve'... but DESIGNING to the
>> minimums... I have seen this happen a number of times where someone
>> reads a MIN. requirement spec and then designs to it. WRONG! Only
>> inexperienced folks who don't understand tolerances' do this sort of
>> thing.
>> When we train PCB designers we drill it into their heads... don't
> forget
>> the tolerances. Worst case means WORST case....even after everything
>> else has gone to the extreme limits... If you want reliability you
> need
>> to design in some 'de-rating' into your tolerance calculations... give
>> yourself some 'head room' for things to go wrong... a good design will
>> still fly even if everything else has failed... by design. It doesn't
>> happen by accident.
>>
>> I believe board manufacturers use the IPC standards as a way to
> commonly
>> agree what minimum acceptance they can 'get away with' process-wise...
>> but if their customers aren't designing their products to achieve the
>> results needed then they are going to just make a lot of scrap.
>> Tolerances statistically will get you every time!
>>
>> Maybe what this guy James Smith was 'trying' to say is, (even though
> he
>> did it badly), that he needs to 'raise the bar' of the design higher
>> because he is seeing the quality of the boards coming in and they
> aren't
>> acceptable to him or his company... even though they are meeting the
> IPC
>> standards. Maybe he needs to hold his vendors to a 'higher standard'
> or
>> or rather a higher design requirement... ??? Typically when the min
>> requirements stated in an IPC standard are not acceptable to us for
> our
>> product, we put an exclusion or acception in the notes of the drawing
> to
>> say how our requirements differ from the spec. IPC specs are a
>> baseline... from there you can design in the higher quality through
> your
>> DESIGN requirements. DON'T design to the minimums... BAD DOG... TIME
>> OUT... NO COOKIE...
>> Frankly, James is blaming the wrong guys... it's not the IPC
>> standards... it the design and quality teams not setting the
>> requirements high enough for his product.
>>
>> Imho :)
>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>>
>> Bill Brooks | Datron World Communications, Inc.
>> PCB Designer/Engineer | Office: 760-602-7004| Fax: 760-597-3777 |
>> [log in to unmask]
>> 3055 Enterprise Court, Vista, CA 92081 | www.dtwc.com
>>
>> Performance You Require. Value You ExpectTM
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Woolley, Mark D.
>> (Mark)
>> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 7:16 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [TN] "The Curse of IPC-A-610 and IPC-J-STD-001" - opinion
>> piece by James Smith
>>
>> Sorry, Let me try again. (I don't know what happened the last time.)
>>
>> Being a slave to "Standards" is not where we should be as an industry.
>> The "standards" are, in reality, minimum acceptable criteria. I often
>> hear manufacturers state that they build to a standard or their
> product
>> meets the "standards."
>>
>> However, as I inspect these products per the same standards (mostly
>> IPC-A-600 and IPC-A-610), I see that while the product might meet the
>> "Standards" it was manufactured along the minimum edge of
> acceptability
>> per the standard.
>>
>> An example: Visible, opaque particulates embedded in the solder mask
>> might meet the IPC-A-610 standard if they do not encroach on certain
>> areas of the PWB. But what does finding multiple occurrences of
>> particulates in the solder mask mean in terms of the PWB manufacturing
>> quality? Unless you are dealing with military classes, in mass
>> production a close visual inspection can only be performed on a
> limited
>> number of units. If those units barely meet the standard what does
> that
>> indicate about the remainder? (How many particulates might be
> embedded
>> within the PWB layers where they are not readily visible? And of
> these
>> how many could eventually cause a short?)
>>
>> Meeting the Standards is not sufficient to build a reliable product.
>> The standards must always remain as the minimum acceptable criteria
> not
>> as the expected mean or median product.
>>
>> The IPC committees put long hours into each specification to clarify
>> points and make the items as understandable as possible. IPC-A-610E
>> (and later revisions) is a great asset. Pictures showing both the
> good
>> and the bad are presented. But never is it stated in the
> specification
>> (that I have read) that a process that consistently produces products
> at
>> the edge of acceptability (per the standard) is acceptable to
> industry.
>>
>> Having said that I must agree with Brian's statement:
>>
>> "In short, Standards, used appropriately, can help, as far as
> possible,
>> to perfect reliability for a given application. Used inappropriately,
>> they can drive up costs dramatically ..."
>>
>> There needs to be common sense in the application of the standards,
> both
>> from a user and a manufacturer point of view. Customers' don't want
>> manufacturers to hide behind the "Standards' Wall" when confronted
> with
>> issues with their products. And the products should be manufactured
> in
>> a manner that places only the smallest percentage, (ideally none) of
>> products below these limits.
>>
>>
>>
>> mark
>> Mark Woolley |PTRL Laboratory | Avaya | 1300 West 120th Ave |
>> Westminster, CO 80234 USA |
>> Voice (Lab): (303) 538-2166 | email: [log in to unmask] |
>>
>>
>> ----
>>
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