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Subject:
From:
Robert Wolfe <[log in to unmask]>
Reply To:
TechNet E-Mail Forum <[log in to unmask]>, Robert Wolfe <[log in to unmask]>
Date:
Mon, 21 Mar 2011 10:18:53 -0400
Content-Type:
text/plain
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text/plain (107 lines)
Inge,
You bring up a very valid point in that  "To get people think themselves, in opposition to commands from above."
I truly believe most companies miss this basic concept in most things they do. Not just with documentation systems but CAD systems also.
The operations that need improvement truly get improved by the people actually doing that operation more times than not.
I've seen it too many times where the product gets sold to the, quote, "Management" without real input from the people that actually have
to use it.  I can honestly say I saw this first hand, even though we had a full contingent of disciplines involved, Oracle did not want to even talk with anyone that had to use their tool, they
wanted to deal only with the CEO & a select few to sell the product. When our engineering group started pressing them with issues
they pretty much blew us off.
But sorry for the side track, the real point I wanted to add is whatever systems are put in place in a company,
CAD, PDM, ECO, MFG, Accounting, Billing etc,  it really is the people down in the trenches that have to use the tools that really
need to be majorly involved in both picking the system & implementing that system. They also need to have the ability to affect change. Problem is everyone can be in agreement with which
System to use  but if it is not implemented with input from the people that have to use it, you might as well have picked any of the other systems on the market for your company.
Let's face it, even if a company picked a somewhat less than desirable tool, if the group that is using it is given the real power to do what it takes to make
Their job more productive and accurate, it could end up being the right fit.
Bob



From: Inge Hernefjord [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2011 3:44 PM
To: TechNet E-Mail Forum; Robert Wolfe
Subject: Re: [TN] Electronic System Management of the Dreaded PCN/ECN/ECO

My experience from Ericsson is not as expert on any of the ECOs you mention. What may be of interest for you was the difficulty to implement a improvement system that generated an overall enthusiasm. Either to complicated or wicked or too academic a product or other obstacles. We tried many products, and finally found one that could be emphasized from the president and all the way 'down' to the small people, as a known director used to say, no name. I think of LEAN. The fundamentals are easily understood and the philosophy can be practised for any mass production.We sent representives for each company disciplin and level to a LEAN education unit and when they came back, they taught at their resp level. As this system has no predestined formulas to copy, we had to make all improvement roadmaps ourselves. That's the idea. To get people think themselves, in opposition to commands from above.It was amazing what an engagement was developed quite instantly. The heart of the system is not a lot of paperwork locked in in dusty maps, but whiteboards everywhere. On these any bypasser can readout the status of the specific dept , the goals ,track products etc. All goals must be measureable, and contracted. Sounds japanese? It is.

Just my to minutes,

Inge




On 18 March 2011 17:40, Robert Wolfe <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
Phil & Nigel,
Yes if money is no object I would have to say Agile is probably the best
document control product on the market. But if you need a lot of seats Agile
can start to become a very expensive option.
Oracle needed to buy Agile because their own ECO process is really really bad.
The only way Oracle can do proper Eng Documentation & ECO process is
with very very heavy customization, you'll need a team of Oracle experts
and to maintain that when patches come out to make sure your customizations still work!!
I've been at two companies that switched from home grown systems, one picked SAP
the other picked Oracle. I can honestly say after 10 years Oracle has virtually no
improvement in their product other than saying they bought Agile.
Agile is not perfect either. But I will say being part of both transitions
SAP we could use with none or very little customization to do documentation pretty well
Oracle there was no way possible you either had to customize the hell out of it or buy Agile
Also, and that is a pretty big price tag.

Side note the Mechanical CAD companies Pro-E & Solidworks offer Enterprise PDM / Documentation tools also
I have not looked into their capabilities as of yet though.
But these would not of course have all the Human Resource, Accounting, Running the business Modules like a SAP or Oracle.
So it depends if one is looking for something to run the whole company or just provide a Documentation Control Process.

Bob


-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] On Behalf Of Nigel Burtt
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2011 11:22 AM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: [TN] Electronic System Management of the Dreaded PCN/ECN/ECO
Agile was taken over by Oracle - still exists and though undoubtedly expensive
worked pretty well for my previous employer, Dolby Labs

http://www.oracle.com/us/products/applications/agile/index.html<http://console.mxlogic.com/redir/?1shod78UsUqejr2rXX3VEVjdw0GNSN_YLztcmzl1KQWpGONYHrelokPicz_M2-1NK_9TLuZXTLsTsSjRS6KydoEdN1h4jVsSyMepvdEITKMe7c8L6T63obZ8Qg6BI4wMQKCy0qf-QURxaNEw62R9-Gq81LoqhZnUjd45njh1cDVEw3E_G7E6y0b2gcMq4wpwQ91wTfM-ub7Xa1J4S-rojvvovvjdZxaDdhXP>

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