I happened to see an article about worker payment in the Far East. A
typical chinese industry operator has 3.15 $ per hour. No wonder many
industrialists place their orders there or invest in chinese business. How
will/can we defend our positions? With cheaper operators? Impossible. Faster
assembly, more cost effective machines? If we succeed (after a lot of
investments) to do that, it will take just one year and the easterners will
have copies (cheaper). If we press our best genii to invent a stream of new
HiTech things to be produced for making money? How willing are the
investors to rocket these projects? While the bureaucrats send papers to
each other, the enormous mass of doctors and engineers that flood from
chinese schools will catch up. Subventions from the governments? Not a
popular way among most tax payers. etc etc. We had a discussion over a cup
of tea (yes, very british) and my daughter's husband, who use to be a sharp
guy, had only one solution: same kind of economy as have China.
Well, global economy is nothing for me, but it struck me, why not ask the
fellows on TN. So, that is what I'm asking on a amateur basis: what will
americans do to keep electronic industry jobs ? I've googled and found
lots, lots of articles, but most about details. I look for something that
can be summerised in a few words.
Actually, why bother? Americans will always be on
top......hmmmm......z.zzzzzzzz
Inge
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Joyce Koo" <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: den 5 May 2010 17:56
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: [TN] Why not Pb-free?
> Loa, you must be working in a industry that have the luxury to grand mgr's
> wish without re- qualification of the assembly. Normally, change from
> PbSn to lead free is a full qual process. The cost of re-qual is way out
> of the cost of "waiting" components. You are very lucky.
> --------------------------
> Sent using BlackBerry
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: ALLEN, LOA [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 10:17 AM
> To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: [TN] Why not Pb-free?
>
> Bev,
>
> Now that I've had some time to think about it . . . it doesn't seem so
> clear cut this morning.
>
> My intent was to demonstrate to management the affects of the higher temps
> required for Pb-free soldering processes. I was looking for a baseline,
> not a qualification.
>
> Some management are claiming we are spending too much time & money
> ordering & waiting for the Sn/Pb versions of the components - and in some
> cases reworking to Sn/Pb solder termination finishes. I wanted to
> demonstrate that we were going to spend time & money on PWB redesign &
> confirming our existing parts database would withstand the elevated time &
> temperatures. Either way it is going to cost us so why not stay with the
> proven methods & materials.
>
> The 20x was the number of samples I hoped to start with, 2ea solder float
> 5x, 2ea solder float 7x, 2ea 9x, 2ea 11x, & 2ea 13x, then repeat for the
> elevated temp.
>
> I really appreciate all the comments & ideas,
> Loa
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Bev Christian
> Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 5:52 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Why not Pb-free?
>
> Paul, Loa,
> Wouldn't Loa be less off the mark if the boards were for wave soldering
> only?
>
> Other than that, Paul has a lot of good stuff to say, Loa.
>
> I have a question for you, Loa. Why would you want to solder float 20x?!
>
> The most REFLOW cycles I can see for a double sided SMT only board is in
> the following scenario.
>
> Circuit pack made - 2 heat cycles
> Testing reveals faulty components/solder joints for two separate
> components on opposite sides of the board, under RF cans.
> Take off can - 3rd heat cycle
> Take off component - 4th heat cycle
> Dress the pad - 5th heat cycle
> Replace the component - 6th heat cycle
> Replace the can - 7th heat cycle
> Take off can - 8th heat cycle
> Take off component - 9th heat cycle
> Dress the pad - 10th heat cycle
> Replace the component - 11th heat cycle
> Replace the can - 12th heat cycle
>
> Bev
> RIM
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Paul Reid
> Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 8:38 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Why not Pb-free?
>
> Hi Loa,
>
> Solder float is not that effective a reliability method as compared to a
> thermal cycling oven, HATS or IST testing. Frequently thermal cycle type
> test results refute solder float type test results. Solder float testing
> can give false positive results. It appears that (I know I will be brought
> to task for this statement) the temperature ramp rate is not as
> significant to degrading a PWB as time at temperature. The solder float is
> typically just a few seconds to temperature while the other thermal
> cycling methods take minutes to get to temperature. It is my opinion that,
> if you take a thermal profile, the area of under the curve above Tg better
> reflects reliability affect of the stress that is applied to the copper
> structure and the degradation of the dielectric from thermal excursions
> associated with assembly and rework. The thermal profile of a solder float
> is a straight line up and a straight line down; "no time at temp". Reflow
> ovens, thermal cycling ovens and thermal cycling test methods all have
> "time at temp".
>
> That being said you can measure the PWB's expected life in the end use
> environment by testing representative coupons and determining cycles to
> failure (10% increase in resistance) at three temperatures that are below
> Tg. We call this method "Accelerated Testing". Armed with a 50% failure
> rate at each temperature you can extrapolate the PWBs field life at the
> end use environment. Typically we test at 150°C, 160°C and 170°C if the
> material's Tg is 170°C or higher. Then we can calculate mean cycles to
> failure at say 70°C. Let's say your application is a computer that is
> turned on in the morning and off a night that would be one thermal cycle.
> If the "acceleration" test demonstrates that at 70°C the board is robust
> for 1,000 cycles that is equivalent to 1,000 days before failure (2.7
> years). By comparing tin/lead preconditioned coupon results to lead-free
> preconditioned coupon results you can demonstrate that the life of the PWB
> is greater than your expected field life even with lead-free assembly.
> With this method you can understand implicitly the affect of lead free.
>
> Mike Freda (Sun, now Oracle) and Jason Furlong (PWB Inc.) wrote a couple
> of white papers on this accelerated test method. Email me if there is
> interest in the papers but we better go off line if you want copies so we
> don't overwhelm TechNet.
>
>
>
> Sincerely,
> Paul Reid
>
> Program Coordinator
> PWB Interconnect Solutions Inc.
> 235 Stafford Rd., West, Unit 103
> Nepean, Ontario
> Canada, K2H 9C1
> 613 596 4244 ext. 229
> Skype paul_reid_pwb
> [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ALLEN, LOA
> Sent: May 4, 2010 7:09 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Why not Pb-free?
>
> Werner,
>
> I am not trying to disprove supplier quality - we have a couple of good
> fab shops & I don't want to get on their bad side. This exercise is to
> compare a number of solder floats at 220°C & at 260°C to prove to
> management the reduction in reliability.
>
> I hope to find a large quantity of previously accepted PWBs with several
> coupons that we can cut up into 20 floats.
> Float 2ea 5x, 7x, 9x, 11x, & 13x at 220°C & 2ea 5x, 7x, 9x, 11x, & 13x at
> 260°C.
> Then x-section & evaluate the barrels.
>
> The sole purpose is to demonstrate to management how the increase in
> temperature will affect the PWB - it is not meant to be a material/process
> qual or reflection on supplier quality.
>
> Do you think this is overkill? Use less samples?
> Thanks again,
> Loa
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Werner Engelmaier
> Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 3:02 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Why not Pb-free?
>
> Hi Loa,
> Please do not always blame the PCB FAB house-many of the problem PCBs I
> see were never properly specified for Pb-free assembly needs.
>
> Werner
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ALLEN, LOA <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Tue, May 4, 2010 5:38 pm
> Subject: Re: [TN] Why not Pb-free?
>
>
> Paul,
>
> Thank you very much . . . this type of information is what I am looking
> for. I
> remember you & Werner commenting on this earlier & now wish I had paid
> more
> attention.
>
> Since we do test the coupons before the PWB lot is accepted it shouldn't
> be too
> difficult to provide actual samples of failures & number of
> "preconditioning"
> attempts then compare to the 6X for assembly & rework to determine percent
> of
> reduction in reliability .
>
> This forum is awesome . . . gotta go fire up the solderpot.
>
> Thanks again,
> Loa
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Paul Reid
> Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 11:08 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Why not Pb-free?
>
> Werner Engelmaier has pointed out, on a number of occasions that PWB
> reliability
> directly and profoundly affected by lead-free assembly and rework and we
> at PWB
> Inc. concur.
>
> We have found that in a perfectly fabricated PWB, reliability is reduced
> by 50%
> in a lead-free application. Tin lead processing reduces reliability by 25%
> or
> less. By that statement we mean that if the reliability of a coupon,
> expressed
> and thermal cycles to failure, tested "As Received" is your "entitlement"
> the
> reliability after 6X260°C preconditioning to simulate assembly and rework
> will
> be half of the "entitlement" value. PWB failures can occur in assembly and
> the
> end use environment.
>
> That 50% rule of thumb for PWB reliability in a lead free application has
> not
> changed since the adoption of RoHS. The report I completed today, for
> example,
> suggested the reliability of the product tested after lead-free
> simulation, was
> reduced by 70%. Since a 70% reduction in reliability is significantly
> higher
> than we expect, there is probably a fabrication discrepancy contributing
> to the
> early failure. Lead free assembly is at the limit of most epoxy systems.
>
> It would be prudent to optimize your PWB fabrication requirements,
> material and
> design (if possible) for a lead free application.
>
> The copper failure mode tends to shift from barrel cracks to corner
> cracks. The
> corner cracks tend to be horizontal rather than at a45° angle. Material is
> degraded and is expressed has cohesive failure, adhesive delamination and
> crazing. Since QC type requirements, like copper thickness, registration
> do not
> anticipate reliability in a lead free environment many companies are using
> reliability testing as a condition of lot acceptance. If you do
> reliability
> testing you must test for both copper and material reliability or you
> could get
> a false positive result.
>
> Of course you must predicate all of the above comments with "It
> depends..."
>
> Sincerely,
> Paul Reid
>
> Program Coordinator
> PWB Interconnect Solutions Inc.
> 235 Stafford Rd., West, Unit 103
> Nepean, Ontario
> Canada, K2H 9C1
> 613 596 4244 ext. 229
> Skype paul_reid_pwb
> [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of LA
> Sent: May 4, 2010 11:56 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] Why not Pb-free?
>
> Until now we have not considered going to Pb-free soldering processes for
> any
> of our products. But in trying to keep up with the latest technologies it
> is
> becoming harder & harder to find Sn/Pb solder surface finishes, meaning we
> are spending huge amounts of resources reworking components prior to
> assembly.
> Some management are wanting to convert the bulk of our products to Pb-free
> & are tiring of my usual arguments of - Tin whiskers, unknown reliability
> models, cost of running two separate processes, PWB development for higher
> reflow temps, review of current component database to verify compatibility
> with higher reflow temps, teaching old dogs new tricks.
> Equipment is high end telecommunications mostly rack-mount office
> environment.
> Questions - Are my arguments still valid? Are there any recent studies
> concluded indicating Sn/Pb is superior?
> Thank you in advance . . .
>
> NOTE: This email is not the opinion or desires of the sender; it is solely
> the
> desires of the sender's company.
>
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