Is Werner pierced now?
Inge

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From: "Joyce Koo" <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: den 15 April 2010 10:06
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: [TN] Contract PCB Design Services T&C

> The "venture" must have different view.  It is hard to differentiate 
> knowledge sharing vs advertisement on this website, besides few exceptions 
> (normally got shut down quickly without anyone reply.... if you see 
> exchange string, you might missed the knowledge between the lines).  My 
> 1.99 cents. Wow almost priceless...jk
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Stephen Pierce
> Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 12:31 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Contract PCB Design Services T&C
>
>>From the IPC website:
> "Discussion of pricing and commercial postings or advertisements are
> not appropriate for TechNet. Repeat offenders will be banned. Requests
> for recommendations of products or suppliers are appropriate when
> responses are sent to the individual requesting the information only
> and not to the entire TechNet forum."
>
> On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 11:19 AM, Werner Engelmaier <[log in to unmask]> 
> wrote:
>>  Hi Bob,
>> Here is a copy of the announcement of Version 9 of the White Paper; 
>> unfortunately, I only have it in English.
>>
>> EngelmaierAssociates, L.C. announces the release of the much expanded 
>> version v.09 of thewidely acclaimed White Paper titled:
>> "Recommendations for PCB FAB Notes andSpecifications in Printed Circuit 
>> Board Drawings for SnPb and Lead-FreeSoldering Assemblies, the 
>> Qualification of PCB Shops and Activities to AssureContinued Quality."
>> It has been argued, based on a lot ofevidence that the biggest threat to 
>> electronic hardware reliability posed bythe change to lead-free solders 
>> are problems with printed circuit boards. Asindicated by the title, in 
>> this report recommendations are made regardingappropriate specifications 
>> and 'FAB Notes' on drawings for printed circuitboards (PCBs), general 
>> procedures to qualify PCB shops and to assure they wouldbe producing PCBs 
>> of good quality, and testing procedures to verify quality andreliability.
>> It provides the necessary additional material selection information 
>> tosupplement the inadequate information given in the slash sheets in 
>> IPC-4101. Itcontains recommended examples of 'FAB Notes'-one for SnPb 
>> solder assemblies andone for RoHS-compliant Pb-free solder 
>> assemblies-serving as generalspecifications on PCB drawings, a basic 
>> questionnaire for new PCB shops to bequalified meant as a supplement to 
>> IPC-1710, as well as recommendations forongoing activities to assure that 
>> qualified PCB shops maintain the quality ofthe PCBs produced by them.
>> Nowhere can so much concentrated andup-to-date information be found in 
>> one place. Version v.09 now includes 29specific FAB Notes, many with 
>> sub-notes, for the specification of PCBs to beutilized in lead-free 
>> solder assemblies.
>> All the recommendations have been fullyresearched and referenced, and are 
>> discussed in detail in the White Paper,which in version v.09 comprises 50 
>> pages and 92 references.
>> The cost of the report is $495.-; itwill be delivered as a pdf-file upon 
>> receipt of a check or purchase order.Updates will be sent automatically 
>> and at no additional cost.
>> Werner Engelmaier
>> Engelmaier Associates, L.C.
>> Electronic Packaging,Interconnection and Reliability Consulting
>> 7 Jasmine Run
>> Ormond Beach, FL 32174 USA
>> Phone: 386-437-8747, Cell: 386-316-5904
>> E-mail: [log in to unmask], Website: www.engelmaier.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Bob Landman <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: Werner Engelmaier <[log in to unmask]>
>> Cc: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
>> Sent: Wed, Apr 14, 2010 9:15 am
>> Subject: Re: [TN] Contract PCB Design Services T&C
>>
>>
>> Werner,
>>
>> Would love to have a copy of the white paper.  My designer is a 
>> contractor in Brasil.  He's an expert at PCAD and it's subsequent 
>> incarnations  , the latest being Altium.  His fab notes aren't the 
>> greatest so I'd like to see how we can improve them since we have to make 
>> sure they use Sn/Pb procedures as we refuse to go lead-free.
>>
>> Bob
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Apr 13, 2010, at 12:51 PM, Werner Engelmaier <[log in to unmask]> 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Peter, Greg & All,
>>> It is precisely for these reasons that I developed the White Paper > 
>>> "Recommendationsfor PCB FAB Notes and Specifications in Printed > 
>>> Circuit Board Drawings for SnPband Lead-Free Soldering Assemblies, > the 
>>> Qualification of PCB Shops andActivities to Assure Continued > Quality."
>>> The OEMs no longer have any in-house expertise precisely at the time > 
>>> the need it the most because of the demands of Pb-free assembly. > When 
>>> sh.. hits the fan, as it invariably will, they blame the Fab > house the 
>>> assembly house or both, when it is inadequately spec'ed > PCBs made 
>>> according to an inadequate specification, against which > the FAB houses 
>>> bid, that is the root cause of the problems.
>>> Werner
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Gregg Owens <[log in to unmask]>
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Sent: Tue, Apr 13, 2010 12:00 pm
>>> Subject: Re: [TN] Contract PCB Design Services T&C
>>>
>>>
>>> Pete:
>>>
>>> Your "rant" could easily be extended to every area of PCBA > 
>>> manufacturing. The
>>> rise of PCBA assemblies houses in the 1980s are examples of how > 
>>> management has
>>> tried to save upfront costs only to pay more in the end with longer > 
>>> lead times.
>>> This is not to say assembly houses are "bad" but it transferred the > 
>>> electronics
>>> manufacturing process away from the very people who would be > 
>>> installing and
>>> using the PCBAs - the end users. This business model has created > lots 
>>> more
>>> finger pointing between end users and the board and assembly houses > 
>>> because the
>>> end users no longer retain the experience necessary to clearly > 
>>> determine whether
>>> the root cause of a problem is design or process related. Then this > 
>>> century
>>> throw in lead-free and you end up with lots of folks working very > hard 
>>> in this
>>> industry but with all too great ignorance of the materials and > 
>>> processes they
>>> are using, all the while trying to keep quarterly profits in a > 
>>> positive
>>> position. I will now get off my soap box.
>>>
>>> Gregg Owens
>>> Technical Writer - Avionics
>>> Space Exploration Technologies Corporation
>>> (310) 363-6533
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Pete Houwen
>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 7:19 AM
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: Re: [TN] Contract PCB Design Services T&C
>>>
>>> Bob, I'm in a rather similar situation.  A company of 3000+, R&D > 
>>> locations on 3
>>> continents and 2 islands.  I am the sole remaining PCB designer.
>>>
>>> To answer your questions first:
>>>
>>> 1.  We have a set of company specific design standards, mostly to > make 
>>> sure
>>> the data we receive is compatible with MRP and CAM standards, and it > 
>>> makes
>>> it easier for me to pick up the "finished" job and, well, finish > it. 
>>> But we
>>> don't
>>> keep a standard agreement, as the services we require change based > on 
>>> the
>>> design.
>>>
>>> 2. If a company can not deliver what we have asked for, either > during 
>>> or at
>>> the end, they don't get paid.  In a situation such as yours, a mutual
>>> agreement to terminate the effort, we would pay them for the part of > 
>>> the
>>> work we can use, whatever did meet parts of the agreement.  This has
>>> happened before.
>>>
>>> now the rant:
>>>
>>> We laid off all the designers but me.  We send the work to China, > 
>>> using
>>> engineers with no PCB experience whatsoever, to do design and
>>> documentation.  Their cost is 1/3 of ours.  It takes them 3x as long > 
>>> to deliver
>>> a design.  Between the time I spend getting them started and > 
>>> correcting
>>> after, I spend 1.5x what it would take to do the design myself.  To > 
>>> Sr.
>>> management, this is cost savings.  Lately, we have been contacting > one 
>>> of
>>> the designers we laid off.  We pay him almost what it cost when he was
>>> employed here.  And again, add in my time, so we're about even now.  > 
>>> That
>>> works well, except that he has another full time job, so turn time > is 
>>> longer.
>>> And since I am stretched so thin, there have been errors - costly > 
>>> errors, and
>>> reduced manufacturability.
>>>
>>> Here's hoping the new "Undercover Boss" TV series starts opening > some 
>>> eyes.
>>>
>>> Pete
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
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