TECHNET Archives

October 2009

TechNet@IPC.ORG

Options: Use Monospaced Font
Show Text Part by Default
Show All Mail Headers

Message: [<< First] [< Prev] [Next >] [Last >>]
Topic: [<< First] [< Prev] [Next >] [Last >>]
Author: [<< First] [< Prev] [Next >] [Last >>]

Print Reply
Subject:
From:
Bob Willis <[log in to unmask]>
Reply To:
TechNet E-Mail Forum <[log in to unmask]>, Bob Willis <[log in to unmask]>
Date:
Mon, 26 Oct 2009 13:23:14 +0000
Content-Type:
text/plain
Parts/Attachments:
text/plain (3508 lines)
The material I have been using for some years is from the Ely Chemical
Company.

Many thanks

Bob Willis
2 Fourth Ave, Chelmsford, Essex, CM1 4HA England
Tel: (44) 1245 351502
Fax: (44) 1245 496123
Mobile: 07860 775858
www.ASKbobwillis.com
www.SolderingStandards.com 
New Package on Package Workshops 24th November
www.ASKbobwillis.com/PoPWorkshops.pdf 
PCB Inspection & Quality Control Workshop 3rd November
www.ASKbobwillis.com/faworkshops.pdf
Book Bob's "Step by Step Failure Analysis
Workshop"4th November  www.ASKbobwillis.com/faworkshops.pdf
Package on Package Assembly & Inspection Workshops 21th January ITRI
www.ASKbobwillis.com/PoPWorkshops.pdf


-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Werner Engelmaier
Sent: 23 October 2009 22:22
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] [spam] RE: [TN] ENIG Issue

 Hi Dave & Ine,
I worry about 2 things.
1) at 100C there is likely a large thermal expansion mismatch, possibly
causing or propagating cracks while the dye is still liquid;
2) many of these dyes are H2O-based and may boil with just a slight over-T
Werner

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: David D. Hillman <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Fri, Oct 23, 2009 4:40 pm
Subject: Re: [TN] [spam] RE: [TN] ENIG Issue










Hi Inge - we'll have to wait for Werner's reply. I use 100C and have very 
good results (that's 100C for 30 minutes starting the clock when the test 
vehicle goes into the oven).

Dave



"Inge" <[log in to unmask]> 
10/23/2009 03:18 PM

To
"TechNet E-Mail Forum" <[log in to unmask]>, <[log in to unmask]>
cc

Subject
Re: [TN] [spam] RE: [TN] ENIG Issue






Sir,
still don't understand. Werner seems to mean that 100 C is too high. Why?
/Inge

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David D. Hillman" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 10:05 PM
Subject: Re: [TN] [spam] RE: [TN] ENIG Issue


Hi Inge - the 100C temp is correct, remember that you are trying to get
the Dye completely dried out in a very small crack shadowed under a set of
BGA components on a test board.  A temp of 50C works fine too but takes
considerably longer. I should probably add some text on consulting with
the Dye manufacturer recommendations with consideration for the thermal
impact of the test vehiclee.

Dave



Inge <[log in to unmask]>
Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
10/23/2009 02:37 PM
Please respond to
TechNet E-Mail Forum <[log in to unmask]>; Please respond to
Inge <[log in to unmask]>


To
[log in to unmask]
cc

Subject
Re: [TN] [spam] RE: [TN] ENIG Issue






Dye drying at 100C sounds very high.....entwickeln's, bitte.
/Inge

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Werner Engelmaier" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 6:38 PM
Subject: Re: [TN] [spam] RE: [TN] ENIG Issue


Hi Dave,
Did you write it?
Is this the only IPC document with D&P in it?
D&P can of course be done with less resources.
While immersion in both acetone and the dye creates the best results, it
may
not always be possible, effective and/or necessary.
Depending of what it is you are looking for, applying a vacuum may be
overkill?this should be optional.
Dye drying at 100C sounds very high?drying at 50C works well but may take
somewhat longer.
I would not make freezing optional, only freezing by LN2. Putting the
samples in a freezer overnight works quite well.
Werner





-----Original Message-----
From: David D. Hillman <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Fri, Oct 23, 2009 12:24 pm
Subject: Re: [TN] [spam] RE: [TN] ENIG Issue










The latest committee draft that just went out has Appendix B in it.

Dave



Werner Engelmaier <[log in to unmask]>
10/23/2009 11:14 AM

To
[log in to unmask], [log in to unmask]
cc

Subject
Re: [TN] [spam] RE: [TN] ENIG Issue






Thanks Dave,
my copy of 7093WD for some reason did not contain appendix B.
Werner


-----Original Message-----
From: David D. Hillman <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:24 am
Subject: Re: [TN] [spam] RE: [TN] ENIG Issue

Hi Werner - there is a very good Dye & Pry testing procedure in the

Appendices of the IPC 7093 specification on Bottom Terminated Components

which includes the use of LN2. I have not observed the use of LN2 to

confound the testing results.



Dave







Werner Engelmaier <[log in to unmask]>

Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>

10/22/2009 05:46 AM

Please respond to

TechNet E-Mail Forum <[log in to unmask]>; Please respond to

Werner Engelmaier <[log in to unmask]>





To

[log in to unmask]

cc



Subject

Re: [TN] [spam] RE: [TN] ENIG Issue













 Hi Inge,

Yes, I have done 'Dye & Pry.'

The 'prying' part is not easy for large components. I did it starting at

the corners working piecemeal around the 4 sides.

LN2 is a god idea?I do not see how it would cause misleading results,

please explain.

Werner













-----Original Message-----

From: Hernefjord Ingemar <[log in to unmask]>

To: [log in to unmask]

Sent: Thu, Oct 22, 2009 4:44 am

Subject: [TN] [spam] RE: [TN] ENIG Issue





















By the way, speaking SJ issues, has anyone of you experience from Die &

Pray

technology, like the one described by some guys, who tested large game

boards,

see figur 9 and 10, dye and pry testing? It's not easy to pry so large

BGAs.

What kind of tools etc do you use? Myself, I had to dip the board under

test in

LN2 before prying off the superBGA. That's not good, the low temperature

can

mislead the result.

/Inge



http://www.celestica.com/uploadedFiles/Home/PBfree_process_paper.pdf







-----Original Message-----

From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Werner Engelmaier

Sent: onsdag 21 oktober 2009 15:51

To: [log in to unmask]

Subject: Re: [TN] ENIG Issue



 Hi Vladimir,

Maybe we should simply drop the name 'Black Pad' entirely-too much baggage


and

confusion.

Maybe we should refer to them by their failure modes and damage

mechanisms-solderability issues due to 'galvanic corrosion', brittle

fracture

due to P-enrichment, brittle fracture due to 'any other cause applicable.

Werner











-----Original Message-----

From: [log in to unmask]

To: Werner Engelmaier <[log in to unmask]>; [log in to unmask]

Sent: Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:39 am

Subject: Re: [TN] ENIG Issue



















   Werner,



Yes, I agree that there are two different phenomena BP and BF, but I can

not

agree on the statement that the root cause for BF(brittle fracture) is

high P

content.



Regards,



Vladimir

SENTEC

11 Canadian Road, Unit 7.

Scarborough, ON M1R 5G1

Tel: (416) 899-1882

Fax: (905) 882-8812

www.sentec.ca





From:  Werner Engelmaier <[log in to unmask]>



Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 23:59:34 -0400

To: <[log in to unmask]>; <[log in to unmask]>

Subject: Re: [TN] ENIG Issue









 Vladimir,



Indeed you sent me that ATOTECH paper, but I have several references that

disagree with their definition, as well as others that agree with the

Atotech

paper.



There seem to be (at least) 2 different 'defects' at work-one with

hyper-galvanic corrosion of the Ni during Au-plating causing soldering

problems,

and another causing brittle separation due to a weakened interface cause

by too

much P.



Are we in agreement on this?



I do not really care what you call either of them-clearly the root cause

is

different in these cases and so is what needs to be done.



Clearly, what we need is for the IPC to form a committee to provide proper




definitions and 'names.'



Werner































-----Original Message-----



From: [log in to unmask]



To: TechNet E-Mail Forum <[log in to unmask]>; Werner Engelmaier

<[log in to unmask]>



Sent: Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:23 pm



Subject: Re: [TN] ENIG Issue



























Werner,







We've been through it several times already. As far as I know, BP was

defined as





a case of poor Ni-P plating with cavitation present in the layer. I think

I sent





you an old ATOTECH paper on the topic a while ago.







Regards,







Vladimir







SENTEC



11 Canadian Road, Unit 7.



Scarborough, ON M1R 5G1



Tel: (416) 899-1882



Fax: (905) 882-8812



www.sentec.ca











-----Original Message-----



From: Werner Engelmaier <[log in to unmask]>



Date:         Tue, 20 Oct 2009 22:57:21



To: <[log in to unmask]>



Subject: Re: [TN] ENIG Issue







 Hi Vladimir,







Then we are not communicating.







Please explain to me what YOU mean by 'BP failure'.







When I say 'BP failure', I mean it is because too much P between the Ni

and the



IMC layers has weakened the bond leading to brittle separation on

sufficient



loading. I do not differentiate as to the cause(s) for too much P. For me

they



describe a damage mechanism.







You can similar appearance with too much and too little P.







Werner































































-----Original Message-----







From: [log in to unmask]







To: Werner Engelmaier <[log in to unmask]>; [log in to unmask]







Sent: Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:44 pm







Subject: Re: [TN] ENIG Issue



















































   Werner,















You just confirmed what I said in my previous e-mail. You customer got

failure



with black appeared pads, but it wasn't BP failure. Similar appearance

doesn't



mean the same mechanism.















Regards,















Vladimir







SENTEC







11 Canadian Road, Unit 7.







Scarborough, ON M1R 5G1







Tel: (416) 899-1882







Fax: (905) 882-8812







www.sentec.ca































From:  Werner Engelmaier <[log in to unmask]>



















Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 22:16:40 -0400















To: <[log in to unmask]>; <[log in to unmask]>















Subject: Re: [TN] ENIG Issue











































 Hi Vladimir,











I have one client who experienced 'Black Pad' after 9(!) soldering

operations.



The P-content got progressively worse; it peaked with the EDS spikes for P


being





as high as those for Sn.











Werner































































































-----Original Message-----











From: [log in to unmask]











To: TechNet E-Mail Forum <[log in to unmask]>; Werner Engelmaier



<[log in to unmask]>











Sent: Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:07 pm











Subject: Re: [TN] ENIG Issue



































































Werner,































With all due respect, I don't think you are right.































Regards,































Vladimir















SENTEC















11 Canadian Road, Unit 7.















Scarborough, ON M1R 5G1















Tel: (416) 899-1882















Fax: (905) 882-8812















www.sentec.ca















































-----Original Message-----















From: Werner Engelmaier <[log in to unmask]>















Date:         Tue, 20 Oct 2009 22:01:35















To: <[log in to unmask]>















Subject: Re: [TN] ENIG Issue































 Hi George,















\While what you say in the first paragraph is correct, the second

paragraph is















not.















'Black Pad' is not an all-or-nothing proposition. The seeds are sown at

the















Ni-plating (not the Au-plating) with the P-codeposition. However, multiple


or















lengthy expositions to high soldering temperatures result in more Ni being


















dissolved to form IMCs leaving ever more P behind. This can create 'Black

Pad'















where none existed before.















Werner































































































































-----Original Message-----















From: George Milad <[log in to unmask]>















To: [log in to unmask]















Sent: Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:52 pm















Subject: Re: [TN] ENIG Issue















































































































































































As always as soon as there is a solderability issue with ENIG, "Black pad"


















comes up. This is a problem because it does not allow for further















investigation.  Everyone accepts since this is ENIG then it must be black

pad.































If this was a black pad issue the back side should have exhibited the same


















problem. BP occurs during the plating of the gold on top of the Ni. BP















cannot  differentiate one side from the other.































Do not accept BP as the answer and keep investigating.















































Regards















George Milad















George Milad















National Accounts  Manager for Technology















Uyemura International Corp (UIC)















249 Town Line Rd















Southington CT 06489















[log in to unmask]















Cell: (516) 901  3874































---------------------------------------------------















Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0















To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in















the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet















To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to















[log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL)















To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to















[log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest















Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives















Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16


for















additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or















847-615-7100 ext.2815















-----------------------------------------------------















































































































---------------------------------------------------















Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0















To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in















the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet















To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to















[log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL)















To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to















[log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest















Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives















Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16


for















additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or















847-615-7100 ext.2815















-----------------------------------------------------



























































































---------------------------------------------------



Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0



To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in



the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet



To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to



[log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL)



To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to



[log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest



Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives



Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16


for



additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or



847-615-7100 ext.2815



-----------------------------------------------------































---------------------------------------------------

Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0

To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in

the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet

To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to

[log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL)

To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to

[log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest

Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives

Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16


for

additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or

847-615-7100 ext.2815

-----------------------------------------------------



---------------------------------------------------

Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0

To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in

the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet

To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to

[log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL)

To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to

[log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest

Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives

Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16


for

additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or

847-615-7100 ext.2815

-----------------------------------------------------













---------------------------------------------------

Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0

To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in

the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet

To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to

[log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL)

To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to

[log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest

Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives

Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16


for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or


847-615-7100 ext.2815

-----------------------------------------------------





---------------------------------------------------

Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0

To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in

the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet

To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to

[log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL)

To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to

[log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest

Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives

Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16
for

additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or

847-615-7100 ext.2815

-----------------------------------------------------



---------------------------------------------------
Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0
To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in
the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet
To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to
[log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL)
To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to
[log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest
Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives
Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16

for
additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or
847-615-7100 ext.2815
-----------------------------------------------------






---------------------------------------------------
Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0
To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in
the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet
To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to
[log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL)
To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to
[log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest
Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives
Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16

for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or

847-615-7100 ext.2815
----------------------------------------------------- 

---------------------------------------------------
Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0
To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in
the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet
To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to
[log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL)
To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to
[log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest
Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives
Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16
for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or
847-615-7100 ext.2815
-----------------------------------------------------


---------------------------------------------------
Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0
To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in
the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet
To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to 
[log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL)
To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to 
[log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest
Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives
Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 

for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 

847-615-7100 ext.2815
----------------------------------------------------- 



---------------------------------------------------
Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0
To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in
the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet
To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to 
[log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL)
To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to 
[log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest
Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives
Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16
for 
additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 
847-615-7100 ext.2815
-----------------------------------------------------



 


---------------------------------------------------
Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0
To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in
the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet
To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to
[log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL)
To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to
[log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest
Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives
Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16
for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or
847-615-7100 ext.2815
-----------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------------
Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0
To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in
the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet
To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL)
To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest
Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives
Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815
-----------------------------------------------------

ATOM RSS1 RSS2