That's the one I've been using until I got that problem today.
Vladimir
SENTEC
11 Canadian Road, Unit 7.
Scarborough, ON M1R 5G1
Tel: (416) 899-1882
Fax: (905) 882-8812
www.sentec.ca
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Edwards <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 14:47:39
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: [TN] [spam] RE: [TN] [spam] RE: [TN] ENIG Issue
Use a solvent-based die because it has a much lower surface tension energy then water-based dies....
Have used Dykem with good results...
Paul
Paul Edwards
Surface Art Engineering
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Werner Engelmaier
Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 2:22 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] [spam] RE: [TN] ENIG Issue
Hi Dave & Ine,
I worry about 2 things.
1) at 100C there is likely a large thermal expansion mismatch, possibly causing or propagating cracks while the dye is still liquid;
2) many of these dyes are H2O-based and may boil with just a slight over-T
Werner
-----Original Message-----
From: David D. Hillman <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Fri, Oct 23, 2009 4:40 pm
Subject: Re: [TN] [spam] RE: [TN] ENIG Issue
Hi Inge - we'll have to wait for Werner's reply. I use 100C and have very
good results (that's 100C for 30 minutes starting the clock when the test
vehicle goes into the oven).
Dave
"Inge" <[log in to unmask]>
10/23/2009 03:18 PM
To
"TechNet E-Mail Forum" <[log in to unmask]>, <[log in to unmask]>
cc
Subject
Re: [TN] [spam] RE: [TN] ENIG Issue
Sir,
still don't understand. Werner seems to mean that 100 C is too high. Why?
/Inge
----- Original Message -----
From: "David D. Hillman" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 10:05 PM
Subject: Re: [TN] [spam] RE: [TN] ENIG Issue
Hi Inge - the 100C temp is correct, remember that you are trying to get
the Dye completely dried out in a very small crack shadowed under a set of
BGA components on a test board. A temp of 50C works fine too but takes
considerably longer. I should probably add some text on consulting with
the Dye manufacturer recommendations with consideration for the thermal
impact of the test vehiclee.
Dave
Inge <[log in to unmask]>
Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
10/23/2009 02:37 PM
Please respond to
TechNet E-Mail Forum <[log in to unmask]>; Please respond to
Inge <[log in to unmask]>
To
[log in to unmask]
cc
Subject
Re: [TN] [spam] RE: [TN] ENIG Issue
Dye drying at 100C sounds very high.....entwickeln's, bitte.
/Inge
----- Original Message -----
From: "Werner Engelmaier" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 6:38 PM
Subject: Re: [TN] [spam] RE: [TN] ENIG Issue
Hi Dave,
Did you write it?
Is this the only IPC document with D&P in it?
D&P can of course be done with less resources.
While immersion in both acetone and the dye creates the best results, it
may
not always be possible, effective and/or necessary.
Depending of what it is you are looking for, applying a vacuum may be
overkill?this should be optional.
Dye drying at 100C sounds very high?drying at 50C works well but may take
somewhat longer.
I would not make freezing optional, only freezing by LN2. Putting the
samples in a freezer overnight works quite well.
Werner
-----Original Message-----
From: David D. Hillman <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Fri, Oct 23, 2009 12:24 pm
Subject: Re: [TN] [spam] RE: [TN] ENIG Issue
The latest committee draft that just went out has Appendix B in it.
Dave
Werner Engelmaier <[log in to unmask]>
10/23/2009 11:14 AM
To
[log in to unmask], [log in to unmask]
cc
Subject
Re: [TN] [spam] RE: [TN] ENIG Issue
Thanks Dave,
my copy of 7093WD for some reason did not contain appendix B.
Werner
-----Original Message-----
From: David D. Hillman <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:24 am
Subject: Re: [TN] [spam] RE: [TN] ENIG Issue
Hi Werner - there is a very good Dye & Pry testing procedure in the
Appendices of the IPC 7093 specification on Bottom Terminated Components
which includes the use of LN2. I have not observed the use of LN2 to
confound the testing results.
Dave
Werner Engelmaier <[log in to unmask]>
Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
10/22/2009 05:46 AM
Please respond to
TechNet E-Mail Forum <[log in to unmask]>; Please respond to
Werner Engelmaier <[log in to unmask]>
To
[log in to unmask]
cc
Subject
Re: [TN] [spam] RE: [TN] ENIG Issue
Hi Inge,
Yes, I have done 'Dye & Pry.'
The 'prying' part is not easy for large components. I did it starting at
the corners working piecemeal around the 4 sides.
LN2 is a god idea?I do not see how it would cause misleading results,
please explain.
Werner
-----Original Message-----
From: Hernefjord Ingemar <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Thu, Oct 22, 2009 4:44 am
Subject: [TN] [spam] RE: [TN] ENIG Issue
By the way, speaking SJ issues, has anyone of you experience from Die &
Pray
technology, like the one described by some guys, who tested large game
boards,
see figur 9 and 10, dye and pry testing? It's not easy to pry so large
BGAs.
What kind of tools etc do you use? Myself, I had to dip the board under
test in
LN2 before prying off the superBGA. That's not good, the low temperature
can
mislead the result.
/Inge
http://www.celestica.com/uploadedFiles/Home/PBfree_process_paper.pdf
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Werner Engelmaier
Sent: onsdag 21 oktober 2009 15:51
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] ENIG Issue
Hi Vladimir,
Maybe we should simply drop the name 'Black Pad' entirely-too much baggage
and
confusion.
Maybe we should refer to them by their failure modes and damage
mechanisms-solderability issues due to 'galvanic corrosion', brittle
fracture
due to P-enrichment, brittle fracture due to 'any other cause applicable.
Werner
-----Original Message-----
From: [log in to unmask]
To: Werner Engelmaier <[log in to unmask]>; [log in to unmask]
Sent: Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:39 am
Subject: Re: [TN] ENIG Issue
Werner,
Yes, I agree that there are two different phenomena BP and BF, but I can
not
agree on the statement that the root cause for BF(brittle fracture) is
high P
content.
Regards,
Vladimir
SENTEC
11 Canadian Road, Unit 7.
Scarborough, ON M1R 5G1
Tel: (416) 899-1882
Fax: (905) 882-8812
www.sentec.ca
From: Werner Engelmaier <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 23:59:34 -0400
To: <[log in to unmask]>; <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: [TN] ENIG Issue
Vladimir,
Indeed you sent me that ATOTECH paper, but I have several references that
disagree with their definition, as well as others that agree with the
Atotech
paper.
There seem to be (at least) 2 different 'defects' at work-one with
hyper-galvanic corrosion of the Ni during Au-plating causing soldering
problems,
and another causing brittle separation due to a weakened interface cause
by too
much P.
Are we in agreement on this?
I do not really care what you call either of them-clearly the root cause
is
different in these cases and so is what needs to be done.
Clearly, what we need is for the IPC to form a committee to provide proper
definitions and 'names.'
Werner
-----Original Message-----
From: [log in to unmask]
To: TechNet E-Mail Forum <[log in to unmask]>; Werner Engelmaier
<[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:23 pm
Subject: Re: [TN] ENIG Issue
Werner,
We've been through it several times already. As far as I know, BP was
defined as
a case of poor Ni-P plating with cavitation present in the layer. I think
I sent
you an old ATOTECH paper on the topic a while ago.
Regards,
Vladimir
SENTEC
11 Canadian Road, Unit 7.
Scarborough, ON M1R 5G1
Tel: (416) 899-1882
Fax: (905) 882-8812
www.sentec.ca
-----Original Message-----
From: Werner Engelmaier <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 22:57:21
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: [TN] ENIG Issue
Hi Vladimir,
Then we are not communicating.
Please explain to me what YOU mean by 'BP failure'.
When I say 'BP failure', I mean it is because too much P between the Ni
and the
IMC layers has weakened the bond leading to brittle separation on
sufficient
loading. I do not differentiate as to the cause(s) for too much P. For me
they
describe a damage mechanism.
You can similar appearance with too much and too little P.
Werner
-----Original Message-----
From: [log in to unmask]
To: Werner Engelmaier <[log in to unmask]>; [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:44 pm
Subject: Re: [TN] ENIG Issue
Werner,
You just confirmed what I said in my previous e-mail. You customer got
failure
with black appeared pads, but it wasn't BP failure. Similar appearance
doesn't
mean the same mechanism.
Regards,
Vladimir
SENTEC
11 Canadian Road, Unit 7.
Scarborough, ON M1R 5G1
Tel: (416) 899-1882
Fax: (905) 882-8812
www.sentec.ca
From: Werner Engelmaier <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 22:16:40 -0400
To: <[log in to unmask]>; <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: [TN] ENIG Issue
Hi Vladimir,
I have one client who experienced 'Black Pad' after 9(!) soldering
operations.
The P-content got progressively worse; it peaked with the EDS spikes for P
being
as high as those for Sn.
Werner
-----Original Message-----
From: [log in to unmask]
To: TechNet E-Mail Forum <[log in to unmask]>; Werner Engelmaier
<[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:07 pm
Subject: Re: [TN] ENIG Issue
Werner,
With all due respect, I don't think you are right.
Regards,
Vladimir
SENTEC
11 Canadian Road, Unit 7.
Scarborough, ON M1R 5G1
Tel: (416) 899-1882
Fax: (905) 882-8812
www.sentec.ca
-----Original Message-----
From: Werner Engelmaier <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 22:01:35
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: [TN] ENIG Issue
Hi George,
\While what you say in the first paragraph is correct, the second
paragraph is
not.
'Black Pad' is not an all-or-nothing proposition. The seeds are sown at
the
Ni-plating (not the Au-plating) with the P-codeposition. However, multiple
or
lengthy expositions to high soldering temperatures result in more Ni being
dissolved to form IMCs leaving ever more P behind. This can create 'Black
Pad'
where none existed before.
Werner
-----Original Message-----
From: George Milad <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:52 pm
Subject: Re: [TN] ENIG Issue
As always as soon as there is a solderability issue with ENIG, "Black pad"
comes up. This is a problem because it does not allow for further
investigation. Everyone accepts since this is ENIG then it must be black
pad.
If this was a black pad issue the back side should have exhibited the same
problem. BP occurs during the plating of the gold on top of the Ni. BP
cannot differentiate one side from the other.
Do not accept BP as the answer and keep investigating.
Regards
George Milad
George Milad
National Accounts Manager for Technology
Uyemura International Corp (UIC)
249 Town Line Rd
Southington CT 06489
[log in to unmask]
Cell: (516) 901 3874
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