Hi Brian,
There is redundancy, and there is redundancy. Flight controls on jet fighters are 3x redundant, but last i checked all oriented in the same plane and thus loaded at high g's at the same time—that is not much redundancy.
It also did not help that Airbus in NYC where the rudder pin was overloaded and broke.
Werner
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Ellis <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 9:37 am
Subject: Re: [TN] Flight 447
What is sure is that both makers have critical avionics with at least 2
x redundancy, often 3 x, usually from different suppliers or batches.
Brian
Reuven Rokah wrote:
> Hi Werner,
> I hope Airbus will clarify this issue (LF in their electrical systems).
> As far as I know from a technical presentation of Airbus I have seen (April 2004), the transition date was 2006.
> Is it include this airplane? I don't know.
>
> Reuven
> Think green before printing this mail... Thanks
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Werner Engelmaier /*
> Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 3:47 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Flight 447
>
> I doubt very much that any aircraft has Pb-free solder joints at this point—and any speculation about Flight 447 at this point is not warranted.
> There are however, other c
onsiderations.
> Boeing aircraft are not totally by (electrical) wire, but have back-up hydraulic systems and pop-out emergency turbines that generate electricity from the airplane velocity to operate the hydraulics [I do not know if that applies to all Boeing aircraft, and whether or not Airbuses have something similar—but Airbuses do not have hydraulic systems].
> So, I do in fact choose my airline, to some degree at least, on the planes they fly.
> Werner
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joyce Koo <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 8:24 am
> Subject: Re: [TN] Flight 447
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Agree with IngeMar! With my recent trip involved 2 problem aircrafts; one
> electrical wire fail, and the other with engin problem(same model of aircraft),
> I would like to know a bit more. With technet resourceful background in high
> rel asy, discussion could be beneficial to prevent future failure. Not say I
> can hand pick my aircraft upon travel, but picking an airline might be in the
> consideration for me in my future travel.
> --------------------------
> Sent using BlackBerry
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Thu Jun 04 06:06:05 2009
> Subject: Re: [TN] Flight 447
>=2
0
> For the first time, I don't agree fully with you, Brian.
> I think
> calling the discussion SCUTTLEBUTT and GOSSIP is little hard. Those who
> really do that are journalists (not all)who make little extra money, while the
> TN guys who were discussing are quite the opposite. I can't see bad guys behind
> the messages that have passed, but professionel and serious engineers, who try
> to learn and understand from this sad event. If the correspondens stays within
> etics and good manner, I can't see why these guys had to be knocked out like
> that.
> Sorry for having another opinion..
> /Inge
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brian Ellis
> Sent: torsdag 4 juni 2009 09:15
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Flight 447
>
> I think it ill-becomes any of us to speculate on the cause of this tragic
> accident or to follow the equally speculative sequence of events.
> and especially the implication of it being a European plane. A few years ago,
> before I retired, I was in contact with experts in both Boeing and Airbus about
> lead-free reliability. I was informed that they had a common study group and
> that much of the avionics used was common to both makers. My interlocutors were
> the Boeing Director of Environmental Affairs and Senior Scientist of
> International SH
EA
>
> Until (if ever) we have facts about this accident, IMHO, we would be wiser to
> stop the speculation which really amounts to nothing but SCUTTLEBUTT and GOSSIP.
>
> Brian
>
> Ken Bloomquist wrote:
>> Hi Genny,
>>
>> I just read this from the weather site that was ment
> ioned earlier:
>> Hello Tim, Check out "tin whiskers" in Google Some enlightening
>> information there My cousin works for BAE Systems, and has some theories on
>> this& His words, "The first aircraft to be 100% completely ROHS compliant.
>> (NO LEAD in the solder.) I said it 5 years back.. They could not give me a
>> book of unlimited flight coupons on this craft... I'd swap it for a D90.
>> :) http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/brazil_plane
>> Be well!
>> Jim H---
>>
>> The web site where I got this was
>> http://www.weathergraphics.com/tim/af447/
>>
>> KennyB
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Genny Gibbard [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 9:44 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [TN] Test
>>
>> So was the Airbus 330 leadfree or not? I was trying to google it and
>> wasn't finding any info on that, other than the one comment on that
>> link.
>>
>>
>> Genny
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From:20TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Steve Gregory
>> Sent: June 3, 2009 10:02 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [TN] Test
>>
>> Everyone passed (GRIN). Why I did the test was because I was trying to
>> post a message about the AF447 crash and my message kept getting
>> kicked back with this:
>>
>> Your message did not reach some or all of the intended recipients.
>>
>> Subject: [TN] Off-topic Discussion; AF447 Crash
>> Sent: 6/3/2009 10:12 AM
>>
>> The following recipien
> t(s) could not be reached:
>> [log in to unmask] on 6/3/2009 10:12 AM
>> There was a SMTP communication problem with the
>> recipient's email server. Please contact your system administrator.
>> <OWA.OAIELECTRONICS.COM #5.5.0 smtp;550 Denied by policy.>
>>
>>
>> Let's see if I can post it in this reply...
>>
>> While it may never be known what caused the tragic crash of AF447, it
>> raises some real questions about what happened.
>>
>> Having flown for over 12-years while in the Navy, any big accident
>> attracts my attention because of my interest in aviation. I've been
>> following this event quite closely to try and learn what might have
>> happened, and learned that there have been several incidents inv
olving
>> failures of the ADIRU (Air Data Inertial Reference Unit) on A320's,
>> other A330's, and 777's that caused the aircraft to depart controlled
>> flight. Below is from a link about the AF447 crash that I was reading:
>>
>> "Air France reported, that they had received an automatic message from
>> the airplane reporting an electrical short circuit and the failure of
>> multiple systems at 02:14Z. Air Traffic Control as well as Military
>> Stations along the Atlantic coast of South America, Africa, Portugal,
>> Spain and France have been alerted and attempted to contact the
>> airplane without success. Attempts to locate the airplane using civil
>> and military radars from both west and east coasts20(including France)
>> of the Atlantic also proved unsuccessful. The airplane entered service
>> in 2005 and had accumulated 18870 flights hours. The captain had 11700
>> flight hours, one of the first officers had 3000, the other 6600 flight hours.
>>
>> Sources within Air France reported, that the automatic message did not
>> only report an electrical short circuit, but also the loss of cabin
>> pressure. This information has been confirmed by FAB, who also stated,
>> that the position of the airplane was given as N3.5777 W30.3744 in
>> that message.
>>
>> New information provided by sources within Air France suggests, that
>> the ACARS messages of syst
em failures started to arrive at 02:10Z
>> indicating, that the autopilot had disengaged and the fly by wire
>> system had changed to alternate law. Between 02:11Z and 02:13Z a
>> flurry of messages regarding ADIRU and ISIS faults arrived, at 02:13Z
>> PRIM 1 and SEC 1 faults were indicated, at 02:14Z the last message
>> received was an advisory regarding cabin vertical speed. That sequence
>> of messages could not be independently verified."
>>
>> Then I was reading the comments this gentleman received after his
>> meteorogical analysis of the weather conditions at the time of the
>> crash:
>>
>> http://www.weathergraphics.com/tim/af447/
>>
>> and up popped the topic of lead-free. You'll see that in the comments.
>>
>>
>> Then I found this from an article that Mike Buetow wrote back in 2004:
>>
>>
>> "The sky was=2
> 0the limit for lead-free, literally. Declarations from
>> Europe and elsewhere led us to believe that electronics for military
>> and aerospace applications would be exempt from bans on lead.
>> Suppliers to companies in those sectors were flying high, believing
>> that under the EU directives (WEEE and RoHS) they were off the radar.
>>
>> None of that is stopping Airbus from taking a closer look, querying
>> its suppliers on their use of lead and other materials on the EU hit list.
>> I
n a Jan. 9 letter, a copy of which was obtained by PCD&M, Airbus
>> France director of procurement quality and supply chain equipment
>> Jean-Philippe Bedos explained: "For Airbus, both directives and the
>> associated planning are applicable."
>>
>> By contract, the European airplane consortium prohibits its equipment
>> suppliers from using materials "forbidden by national and
>> international regulations, or likely to be...." The statement clearly
>> implies WEEE and RoHS. With that in mind, Airbus submitted to its
>> suppliers a 46-question form asking about lead use. Responses, wrote
>> Bedos, will be analyzed by Airbus and "will initiate an exchange and a
>> follow up of your process and the possible corrective actions to mitigate the
> risks."
>> That's not all. The consortium is also putting the onus for
>> end-of-life disposal squarely on its suppliers. In an October
>> presentation by Airbus UK's environmental affairs coordinator, a slide
>> listing environmental requirements for Airbus' supplier
> s included this
>> statement: "In particular for electrical and electronic equipment,
>> supplier responsibility for the elimination of the corresponding waste
>> at the end of life of the delivered product including packaging,
>> unless otherwise agreed with Airbus." (Ever tried to throw out a
>> plane? It's not as easy as it looks.)
>>
>> For products deliver
ed after July 1, 2006, Airbus is mandating its
>> suppliers attest in writing that their products contain no lead,
>> cadmium or other substances (including polybrominated biphenyls, or
>> PBBs; and polybrominated dephenyl ethers, or PBDEs) banned per the RoHS
> Directive.
>> And if Airbus succumbs, it says here it's only a matter of time until
>> Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman and the other primes follow.
>>
>> ...For now, confusion reigns. Will it end before airplane parts rain,
>> too?"
>>
>>
>> So, it begs the question; COULD this have something to do with
>> lead-free avionics?
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> P.S. During my searches, I ran across this. If you're into aviation,
>> you'll like it.
>>
>> http://www.gillesvidal.com/blogpano/cockpit1.htm
>>
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