...and at Grumman it was "Engineer for worst case
loading then double it" and don't forget to pass
final design through the Ugly Dept on the way out.
At 09:41 AM 6/4/2009, Joe Fjelstad wrote:
>You are right Brian. At Boeing, the attitude was "belt, suspenders and
>'hero rope' to keep one's pant's on". This was 30 years ago but I don't think
>much has changed beyond the internationalization already mentioned.
>
>Joe
>
>
>In a message dated 6/4/2009 6:38:44 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
>[log in to unmask] writes:
>
>What is sure is that both makers have critical avionics with at least 2
>x redundancy, often 3 x, usually from different suppliers or batches.
>
>Brian
>
>Reuven Rokah wrote:
> > Hi Werner,
> > I hope Airbus will clarify this issue (LF in their electrical systems).
> > As far as I know from a technical presentation of Airbus I have seen
>(April 2004), the transition date was 2006.
> > Is it include this airplane? I don't know.
> >
> > Reuven
> > Think green before printing this mail... Thanks
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Werner Engelmaier /*
> > Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 3:47 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: [TN] Flight 447
> >
> > I doubt very much that any aircraft has Pb-free solder joints at this
>pointand any speeculation about Flight 447 at this point is not warranted.
> > There are however, other considerations.
> > Boeing aircraft are not totally by (electrical) wire, but have back-up
>hydraulic systems and pop-out emergency turbines that generate electricity
>from the airplane velocity to operate the hydraulics [I do not know if that
>applies to all Boeing aircraft, and whether or not Airbuses have something
>similarbut Airbuses do not have hydraulicc systems].
> > So, I do in fact choose my airline, to some degree at least, on the
>planes they fly.
> > Werner
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Joyce Koo <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Sent: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 8:24 am
> > Subject: Re: [TN] Flight 447
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Agree with IngeMar! With my recent trip involved 2 problem aircrafts;
>one
> > electrical wire fail, and the other with engin problem(same model of
>aircraft),
> > I would like to know a bit more. With technet resourceful background in
>high
> > rel asy, discussion could be beneficial to prevent future failure. Not
>say I
> > can hand pick my aircraft upon travel, but picking an airline might be
>in the
> > consideration for me in my future travel.
> > --------------------------
> > Sent using BlackBerry
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
> > Sent: Thu Jun 04 06:06:05 2009
> > Subject: Re: [TN] Flight 447
> >
> > For the first time, I don't agree fully with you, Brian.
> > I think
> > calling the discussion SCUTTLEBUTT and GOSSIP is little hard. Those who
> > really do that are journalists (not all)who make little extra money,
>while the
> > TN guys who were discussing are quite the opposite. I can't see bad guys
> behind
> > the messages that have passed, but professionel and serious engineers,
>who try
> > to learn and understand from this sad event. If the correspondens stays
>within
> > etics and good manner, I can't see why these guys had to be knocked out
>like
> > that.
> > Sorry for having another opinion..
> > /Inge
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brian Ellis
> > Sent: torsdag 4 juni 2009 09:15
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: [TN] Flight 447
> >
> > I think it ill-becomes any of us to speculate on the cause of this tragic
> > accident or to follow the equally speculative sequence of events.
> > and especially the implication of it being a European plane. A few years
> ago,
> > before I retired, I was in contact with experts in both Boeing and
>Airbus about
> > lead-free reliability. I was informed that they had a common study group
>and
> > that much of the avionics used was common to both makers. My
>interlocutors were
> > the Boeing Director of Environmental Affairs and Senior Scientist of
> > International SHEA
> >
> > Until (if ever) we have facts about this accident, IMHO, we would be
>wiser to
> > stop the speculation which really amounts to nothing but SCUTTLEBUTT and
>GOSSIP.
> >
> > Brian
> >
> > Ken Bloomquist wrote:
> >> Hi Genny,
> >>
> >> I just read this from the weather site that was ment
> > ioned earlier:
> >> Hello Tim, Check out "tin whiskers" in Google Some enlightening
> >> information there My cousin works for BAE Systems, and has some
>theories on
> >> this& His words, "The first aircraft to be 100% completely ROHS
>compliant.
> >> (NO LEAD in the solder.) I said it 5 years back.. They could not give
>me a
> >> book of unlimited flight coupons on this craft... I'd swap it for a
>D90.
> >> :) http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/brazil_plane
> >> Be well!
> >> Jim H---
> >>
> >> The web site where I got this was
> >> http://www.weathergraphics.com/tim/af447/
> >>
> >> KennyB
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Genny Gibbard [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> >> Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 9:44 AM
> >> To: [log in to unmask]
> >> Subject: Re: [TN] Test
> >>
> >> So was the Airbus 330 leadfree or not? I was trying to google it and
> >> wasn't finding any info on that, other than the one comment on that
> >> link.
> >>
> >>
> >> Genny
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Steve Gregory
> >> Sent: June 3, 2009 10:02 AM
> >> To: [log in to unmask]
> >> Subject: Re: [TN] Test
> >>
> >> Everyone passed (GRIN). Why I did the test was because I was trying to
> >> post a message about the AF447 crash and my message kept getting
> >> kicked back with this:
> >>
> >> Your message did not reach some or all of the intended recipients.
> >>
> >> Subject: [TN] Off-topic Discussion; AF447 Crash
> >> Sent: 6/3/2009 10:12 AM
> >>
> >> The following recipien
> > t(s) could not be reached:
> >> [log in to unmask] on 6/3/2009 10:12 AM
> >> There was a SMTP communication problem with the
> >> recipient's email server. Please contact your system administrator.
> >> <OWA.OAIELECTRONICS.COM #5.5.0 smtp;550 Denied by policy.>
> >>
> >>
> >> Let's see if I can post it in this reply...
> >>
> >> While it may never be known what caused the tragic crash of AF447, it
> >> raises some real questions about what happened.
> >>
> >> Having flown for over 12-years while in the Navy, any big accident
> >> attracts my attention because of my interest in aviation. I've been
> >> following this event quite closely to try and learn what might have
> >> happened, and learned that there have been several incidents involving
> >> failures of the ADIRU (Air Data Inertial Reference Unit) on A320's,
> >> other A330's, and 777's that caused the aircraft to depart controlled
> >> flight. Below is from a link about the AF447 crash that I was reading:
> >>
> >> "Air France reported, that they had received an automatic message from
> >> the airplane reporting an electrical short circuit and the failure of
> >> multiple systems at 02:14Z. Air Traffic Control as well as Military
> >> Stations along the Atlantic coast of South America, Africa, Portugal,
> >> Spain and France have been alerted and attempted to contact the
> >> airplane without success. Attempts to locate the airplane using civil
> >> and military radars from both west and east coasts20(including France)
> >> of the Atlantic also proved unsuccessful. The airplane entered service
> >> in 2005 and had accumulated 18870 flights hours. The captain had 11700
> >> flight hours, one of the first officers had 3000, the other 6600 flight
> hours.
> >>
> >> Sources within Air France reported, that the automatic message did not
> >> only report an electrical short circuit, but also the loss of cabin
> >> pressure. This information has been confirmed by FAB, who also stated,
> >> that the position of the airplane was given as N3.5777 W30.3744 in
> >> that message.
> >>
> >> New information provided by sources within Air France suggests, that
> >> the ACARS messages of system failures started to arrive at 02:10Z
> >> indicating, that the autopilot had disengaged and the fly by wire
> >> system had changed to alternate law. Between 02:11Z and 02:13Z a
> >> flurry of messages regarding ADIRU and ISIS faults arrived, at 02:13Z
> >> PRIM 1 and SEC 1 faults were indicated, at 02:14Z the last message
> >> received was an advisory regarding cabin vertical speed. That sequence
> >> of messages could not be independently verified."
> >>
> >> Then I was reading the comments this gentleman received after his
> >> meteorogical analysis of the weather conditions at the time of the
> >> crash:
> >>
> >> http://www.weathergraphics.com/tim/af447/
> >>
> >> and up popped the topic of lead-free. You'll see that in the comments.
> >>
> >>
> >> Then I found this from an article that Mike Buetow wrote back in 2004:
> >>
> >>
> >> "The sky was=2
> > 0the limit for lead-free, literally. Declarations from
> >> Europe and elsewhere led us to believe that electronics for military
> >> and aerospace applications would be exempt from bans on lead.
> >> Suppliers to companies in those sectors were flying high, believing
> >> that under the EU directives (WEEE and RoHS) they were off the radar.
> >>
> >> None of that is stopping Airbus from taking a closer look, querying
> >> its suppliers on their use of lead and other materials on the EU hit
>list.
> >> In a Jan. 9 letter, a copy of which was obtained by PCD&M, Airbus
> >> France director of procurement quality and supply chain equipment
> >> Jean-Philippe Bedos explained: "For Airbus, both directives and the
> >> associated planning are applicable."
> >>
> >> By contract, the European airplane consortium prohibits its equipment
> >> suppliers from using materials "forbidden by national and
> >> international regulations, or likely to be...." The statement clearly
> >> implies WEEE and RoHS. With that in mind, Airbus submitted to its
> >> suppliers a 46-question form asking about lead use. Responses, wrote
> >> Bedos, will be analyzed by Airbus and "will initiate an exchange and a
> >> follow up of your process and the possible corrective actions to
>mitigate the
> > risks."
> >> That's not all. The consortium is also putting the onus for
> >> end-of-life disposal squarely on its suppliers. In an October
> >> presentation by Airbus UK's environmental affairs coordinator, a slide
> >> listing environmental requirements for Airbus' supplier
> > s included this
> >> statement: "In particular for electrical and electronic equipment,
> >> supplier responsibility for the elimination of the corresponding waste
> >> at the end of life of the delivered product including packaging,
> >> unless otherwise agreed with Airbus." (Ever tried to throw out a
> >> plane? It's not as easy as it looks.)
> >>
> >> For products delivered after July 1, 2006, Airbus is mandating its
> >> suppliers attest in writing that their products contain no lead,
> >> cadmium or other substances (including polybrominated biphenyls, or
> >> PBBs; and polybrominated dephenyl ethers, or PBDEs) banned per the RoHS
> > Directive.
> >> And if Airbus succumbs, it says here it's only a matter of time until
> >> Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman and the other primes follow.
> >>
> >> ...For now, confusion reigns. Will it end before airplane parts rain,
> >> too?"
> >>
> >>
> >> So, it begs the question; COULD this have something to do with
> >> lead-free avionics?
> >>
> >> Steve
> >>
> >> P.S. During my searches, I ran across this. If you're into aviation,
> >> you'll like it.
> >>
> >> http://www.gillesvidal.com/blogpano/cockpit1.htm
> >>
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