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Subject:
From:
Dwight Mattix <[log in to unmask]>
Reply To:
TechNet E-Mail Forum <[log in to unmask]>, Dwight Mattix <[log in to unmask]>
Date:
Thu, 4 Jun 2009 10:37:30 -0700
Content-Type:
text/plain
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text/plain (475 lines)
...and at Grumman it was "Engineer for worst case 
loading then double it" and don't forget to pass 
final design through the Ugly Dept on the way out.

At 09:41 AM 6/4/2009, Joe Fjelstad wrote:
>You are right Brian. At Boeing, the attitude was "belt,  suspenders and
>'hero rope' to keep one's pant's on". This was 30 years  ago but I don't think
>much has changed beyond the internationalization already  mentioned.
>
>Joe
>
>
>In a message dated 6/4/2009 6:38:44 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
>[log in to unmask] writes:
>
>What is  sure is that both makers have critical avionics with at least 2
>x  redundancy, often 3 x, usually from different suppliers or  batches.
>
>Brian
>
>Reuven Rokah wrote:
> > Hi Werner,
> > I  hope Airbus will clarify this issue (LF in their electrical systems).
> >  As far as I know from a technical presentation of Airbus I have seen
>(April  2004), the transition date was 2006.
> > Is it include this airplane? I  don't know.
> >
> > Reuven
> >  Think green before printing this  mail... Thanks
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:  TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Werner Engelmaier /*
> >  Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 3:47 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> >  Subject: Re: [TN] Flight 447
> >
> >  I doubt very much that any  aircraft has Pb-free solder joints at this
>pointand any speeculation about  Flight 447 at this point is not warranted.
> > There are however, other  considerations.
> > Boeing aircraft are not totally by (electrical) wire,  but have back-up
>hydraulic systems and pop-out emergency turbines that  generate electricity
>from the airplane velocity to operate the hydraulics [I  do not know if that
>applies to all Boeing aircraft, and whether or not  Airbuses have something
>similarbut Airbuses do not have hydraulicc  systems].
> > So, I do in fact choose my airline, to some degree at least,  on the
>planes they fly.
> > Werner
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:  Joyce Koo <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Sent: Thu,  4 Jun 2009 8:24 am
> > Subject: Re: [TN] Flight 447
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Agree with IngeMar!  With my recent trip involved 2 problem  aircrafts;
>one
> > electrical wire fail, and the other with engin  problem(same model of
>aircraft),
> > I would like to know a bit  more.  With technet resourceful background in
>high
> > rel asy,  discussion could be beneficial to prevent future failure.  Not
>say  I
> > can hand pick my aircraft upon travel, but picking an airline might  be
>in the
> > consideration for me in my future travel.
> >  --------------------------
> > Sent using BlackBerry
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: TechNet  <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: [log in to unmask]  <[log in to unmask]>
> > Sent: Thu Jun 04 06:06:05 2009
> >  Subject: Re: [TN] Flight 447
> >
> > For the first time, I don't  agree fully with you, Brian.
> > I think
> >  calling the  discussion SCUTTLEBUTT and GOSSIP is little hard. Those who
> > really do  that are journalists (not all)who make little extra money,
>while the
> >  TN guys who were discussing are quite the opposite. I can't see bad guys
>  behind
> > the messages that have passed, but professionel and  serious  engineers,
>who try
> > to learn and understand from this sad  event. If the correspondens stays
>within
> > etics and good manner, I  can't see why these guys had to be knocked out
>like
> > that.
> >  Sorry for having another opinion..
> > /Inge
> >
> >  -----Original Message-----
> > From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On  Behalf Of Brian Ellis
> > Sent: torsdag 4 juni 2009 09:15
> > To:  [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: [TN] Flight 447
> >
> > I think  it ill-becomes any of us to speculate on the cause of this tragic
> >  accident or to follow the equally speculative sequence of events.
> > and  especially the implication of it being a European plane. A few years
>  ago,
> > before I retired, I was in contact with experts in both Boeing  and
>Airbus about
> > lead-free reliability. I was informed that they had a  common study group
>and
> > that much of the avionics used was common to  both makers. My
>interlocutors were
> > the Boeing Director of  Environmental Affairs and Senior Scientist of
> > International  SHEA
> >
> > Until (if ever) we have facts about this accident, IMHO,  we would be
>wiser to
> > stop the speculation which really amounts to  nothing but SCUTTLEBUTT and
>GOSSIP.
> >
> > Brian
> >
> >  Ken Bloomquist wrote:
> >> Hi Genny,
> >>
> >> I just  read this from the weather site that was ment
> > ioned  earlier:
> >> Hello Tim,   Check out "tin whiskers" in  Google  Some enlightening
> >> information there  My cousin  works for BAE Systems, and has some
>theories on
> >>  this&   His words, "The first aircraft to be 100% completely  ROHS
>compliant.
> >> (NO LEAD in the solder.) I said it 5 years back..  They could not give
>me a
> >> book of unlimited flight coupons on this  craft...   I'd swap it for a
>D90.
> >> :)    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/brazil_plane
> >> Be well!
> >> Jim  H---
> >>
> >> The web site where I got this was
> >>  http://www.weathergraphics.com/tim/af447/
> >>
> >>  KennyB
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From:  Genny Gibbard [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> >> Sent: Wednesday,  June 03, 2009 9:44 AM
> >> To: [log in to unmask]
> >> Subject: Re:  [TN] Test
> >>
> >> So was the Airbus 330 leadfree or not?   I was trying to google it and
> >> wasn't finding any info on that,  other than the one comment on that
> >>  link.
> >>
> >>
> >> Genny
> >>
> >>  -----Original Message-----
> >> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]  On Behalf Of Steve Gregory
> >> Sent: June 3, 2009 10:02 AM
> >>  To: [log in to unmask]
> >> Subject: Re: [TN] Test
> >>
> >>  Everyone passed (GRIN). Why I did the test was because I was trying  to
> >> post a message about the AF447 crash and my message kept  getting
> >> kicked back with this:
> >>
> >> Your  message did not reach some or all of the intended  recipients.
> >>
> >>       Subject:   [TN] Off-topic Discussion; AF447 Crash
> >>     Sent:   6/3/2009 10:12 AM
> >>
> >> The  following recipien
> > t(s) could not be reached:
> >>     [log in to unmask] on 6/3/2009 10:12 AM
> >>     There was a SMTP communication problem with  the
> >> recipient's email server.  Please contact your system  administrator.
> >>              <OWA.OAIELECTRONICS.COM #5.5.0 smtp;550 Denied by  policy.>
> >>
> >>
> >> Let's see if I can post it in  this reply...
> >>
> >> While it may never be known what caused  the tragic crash of AF447, it
> >> raises some real questions about  what happened.
> >>
> >> Having flown for over 12-years while in  the Navy, any big accident
> >> attracts my attention because of my  interest in aviation. I've been
> >> following this event quite closely  to try and learn what might have
> >> happened, and learned that there  have been several incidents involving
> >> failures of the ADIRU (Air  Data Inertial Reference Unit) on A320's,
> >> other A330's, and 777's  that caused the aircraft to depart controlled
> >> flight. Below is  from a link about the AF447 crash that I was reading:
> >>
> >>  "Air France reported, that they had received an automatic message  from
> >> the airplane reporting an electrical short circuit and the  failure of
> >> multiple systems at 02:14Z. Air Traffic Control as well  as Military
> >> Stations along the Atlantic coast of South America,  Africa, Portugal,
> >> Spain and France have been alerted and attempted  to contact the
> >> airplane without success. Attempts to locate the  airplane using civil
> >> and military radars from both west and east  coasts20(including France)
> >> of the Atlantic also proved  unsuccessful. The airplane entered service
> >> in 2005 and had  accumulated 18870 flights hours. The captain had 11700
> >> flight  hours, one of the first officers had 3000, the other 6600 flight
>  hours.
> >>
> >> Sources within Air France reported, that the  automatic message did not
> >> only report an electrical short circuit,  but also the loss of cabin
> >> pressure. This information has been  confirmed by FAB, who also stated,
> >> that the position of the  airplane was given as N3.5777 W30.3744 in
> >> that  message.
> >>
> >> New information provided by sources within  Air France suggests, that
> >> the ACARS messages of system failures  started to arrive at 02:10Z
> >> indicating, that the autopilot had  disengaged and the fly by wire
> >> system had changed to alternate  law. Between 02:11Z and 02:13Z a
> >> flurry of messages regarding  ADIRU and ISIS faults arrived, at 02:13Z
> >> PRIM 1 and SEC 1 faults  were indicated, at 02:14Z the last message
> >> received was an  advisory regarding cabin vertical speed. That sequence
> >> of messages  could not be independently verified."
> >>
> >> Then I was  reading the comments this gentleman received after his
> >>  meteorogical analysis of the weather conditions at the time of the
> >>  crash:
> >>
> >>  http://www.weathergraphics.com/tim/af447/
> >>
> >> and up  popped the topic of lead-free. You'll see that in the  comments.
> >>
> >>
> >> Then I found this from an  article that Mike Buetow wrote back in  2004:
> >>
> >>
> >> "The sky was=2
> > 0the limit  for lead-free, literally. Declarations from
> >> Europe and elsewhere  led us to believe that electronics for military
> >> and aerospace  applications would be exempt from bans on lead.
> >> Suppliers to  companies in those sectors were flying high, believing
> >> that under  the EU directives (WEEE and RoHS) they were off the  radar.
> >>
> >> None of that is stopping Airbus from taking a  closer look, querying
> >> its suppliers on their use of lead and other  materials on the EU hit
>list.
> >> In a Jan. 9 letter, a copy of which  was obtained by PCD&M, Airbus
> >> France director of procurement  quality and supply chain equipment
> >> Jean-Philippe Bedos explained:  "For Airbus, both directives and the
> >> associated planning are  applicable."
> >>
> >> By contract, the European airplane  consortium prohibits its equipment
> >> suppliers from using materials  "forbidden by national and
> >> international regulations, or likely to  be...." The statement clearly
> >> implies WEEE and RoHS. With that in  mind, Airbus submitted to its
> >> suppliers a 46-question form asking  about lead use. Responses, wrote
> >> Bedos, will be analyzed by Airbus  and "will initiate an exchange and a
> >> follow up of your process and  the possible corrective actions to
>mitigate the
> > risks."
> >>  That's not all. The consortium is also putting the onus for
> >>  end-of-life disposal squarely on its suppliers. In an October
> >>  presentation by Airbus UK's environmental affairs coordinator, a  slide
> >> listing environmental requirements for Airbus'  supplier
> > s included this
> >> statement: "In particular for  electrical and electronic equipment,
> >> supplier responsibility for  the elimination of the corresponding waste
> >> at the end of life of  the delivered product including packaging,
> >> unless otherwise agreed  with Airbus." (Ever tried to throw out a
> >> plane? It's not as easy  as it looks.)
> >>
> >> For products delivered after July 1,  2006, Airbus is mandating its
> >> suppliers attest in writing that  their products contain no lead,
> >> cadmium or other substances  (including polybrominated biphenyls, or
> >> PBBs; and polybrominated  dephenyl ethers, or PBDEs) banned per the RoHS
> > Directive.
> >>  And if Airbus succumbs, it says here it's only a matter of time  until
> >> Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman and the other  primes follow.
> >>
> >> ...For now, confusion reigns. Will it  end before airplane parts rain,
> >>  too?"
> >>
> >>
> >> So, it begs the question; COULD this  have something to do with
> >> lead-free  avionics?
> >>
> >> Steve
> >>
> >> P.S. During my  searches, I ran across this. If you're into aviation,
> >> you'll like  it.
> >>
> >>  http://www.gillesvidal.com/blogpano/cockpit1.htm
> >>
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