At 05:16 AM 6/4/2009, Steve Gregory wrote:
>Since I was the one who started all this, I want to try to explain
>myself.
>
>As I said, I flew for 12-years on P-3's while in the Navy,
Oh P-3's! Sorry, I thought you were in Naval Air.
/snark/snicker :-)
a recovering sailor,
dw
AT1, EAWS, NAC, E2-C IFT
> so I follow
>any aircraft mishap with interest to try and understand why things may
>have happened. I belong to another forum (http://www.centerseat.net/)
>consisting of current and former P-3 flight engineers because I like to
>stay connected with former shipmates and to something that was a big
>part of my life.
>
>I do have questions about the reliability of lead-free electronics as do
>many on this forum, as evidenced by the numerous discussions about this
>topic in the past.
>
>You are absolutely right Brian, I don't know the cause. But I somewhat
>disagree with you about not discussing it, or having honest questions
>about what may have happened. I figured that I would just ask the
>question, because there are those on this list who I consider the worlds
>experts on whether lead-free soldering should be used in aircraft
>electronics. Especially in systems that depend on those electronics to
>keep the plane in the air.
>
>I started out my previous post by saying how tragic this was, and my
>thoughts and prayers are with everybody that suffered a loss from this.
>
>But I was just asking an honest question...
>
>Sorry if I offended anyone.
>
>Steve
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brian Ellis
>Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 5:55 AM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: [TN] Flight 447
>
>Sorry, but I stand by what I said. Speculation about whiskers, lead-free
>or weather (or anything else) being the cause is just that, speculation,
>not serious engineering or science. As for statements comparing Airbus
>safety with Boeing, they have very similar records, so that it is
>irresponsible to imply otherwise. Neither you nor I know what happened
>and I firmly believe that neither we nor journalists of any class of
>media are in any position to discuss it until (if ever) we have more
>positive and reliable information. Let's not forget the 228 persons on
>board and not disgrace their memory by futile speculation.
>
>Brian
>
>Hernefjord Ingemar wrote:
> > For the first time, I don't agree fully with you, Brian.
> > I think calling the discussion SCUTTLEBUTT and GOSSIP is little hard.
>Those who really do that are journalists (not all)who make little extra
>money, while the TN guys who were discussing are quite the opposite. I
>can't see bad guys behind the messages that have passed, but
>professionel and serious engineers, who try to learn and understand
>from this sad event. If the correspondens stays within etics and good
>manner, I can't see why these guys had to be knocked out like that.
> > Sorry for having another opinion..
> > /Inge
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brian Ellis
> > Sent: torsdag 4 juni 2009 09:15
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: [TN] Flight 447
> >
> > I think it ill-becomes any of us to speculate on the cause of this
>tragic accident or to follow the equally speculative sequence of events.
>
> > and especially the implication of it being a European plane. A few
> > years ago, before I retired, I was in contact with experts in both
> > Boeing and Airbus about lead-free reliability. I was informed that
> > they had a common study group and that much of the avionics used was
> > common to both makers. My interlocutors were the Boeing Director of
> > Environmental Affairs and Senior Scientist of International SHEA
> >
> > Until (if ever) we have facts about this accident, IMHO, we would be
>wiser to stop the speculation which really amounts to nothing but
>SCUTTLEBUTT and GOSSIP.
> >
> > Brian
> >
> > Ken Bloomquist wrote:
> >> Hi Genny,
> >>
> >> I just read this from the weather site that was mentioned earlier:
> >>
> >> Hello Tim, Check out "tin whiskers" in Google Some enlightening
> >> information there My cousin works for BAE Systems, and has some
>theories on
> >> this& His words, "The first aircraft to be 100% completely ROHS
>compliant.
> >> (NO LEAD in the solder.) I said it 5 years back.. They could not give
>me a
> >> book of unlimited flight coupons on this craft... I'd swap it for a
>D90.
> >> :) http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/brazil_plane
> >> Be well!
> >> Jim H---
> >>
> >> The web site where I got this was
> >> http://www.weathergraphics.com/tim/af447/
> >>
> >> KennyB
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Genny Gibbard [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> >> Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 9:44 AM
> >> To: [log in to unmask]
> >> Subject: Re: [TN] Test
> >>
> >> So was the Airbus 330 leadfree or not? I was trying to google it and
>
> >> wasn't finding any info on that, other than the one comment on that
> >> link.
> >>
> >>
> >> Genny
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Steve Gregory
> >> Sent: June 3, 2009 10:02 AM
> >> To: [log in to unmask]
> >> Subject: Re: [TN] Test
> >>
> >> Everyone passed (GRIN). Why I did the test was because I was trying
> >> to post a message about the AF447 crash and my message kept getting
> >> kicked back with this:
> >>
> >> Your message did not reach some or all of the intended recipients.
> >>
> >> Subject: [TN] Off-topic Discussion; AF447 Crash
> >> Sent: 6/3/2009 10:12 AM
> >>
> >> The following recipient(s) could not be reached:
> >>
> >> [log in to unmask] on 6/3/2009 10:12 AM
> >> There was a SMTP communication problem with the
> >> recipient's email server. Please contact your system administrator.
> >> <OWA.OAIELECTRONICS.COM #5.5.0 smtp;550 Denied by
> >> policy.>
> >>
> >>
> >> Let's see if I can post it in this reply...
> >>
> >> While it may never be known what caused the tragic crash of AF447, it
>
> >> raises some real questions about what happened.
> >>
> >> Having flown for over 12-years while in the Navy, any big accident
> >> attracts my attention because of my interest in aviation. I've been
> >> following this event quite closely to try and learn what might have
> >> happened, and learned that there have been several incidents
> >> involving failures of the ADIRU (Air Data Inertial Reference Unit) on
>
> >> A320's, other A330's, and 777's that caused the aircraft to depart
> >> controlled flight. Below is from a link about the AF447 crash that I
>was reading:
> >>
> >> "Air France reported, that they had received an automatic message
> >> from the airplane reporting an electrical short circuit and the
> >> failure of multiple systems at 02:14Z. Air Traffic Control as well as
>
> >> Military Stations along the Atlantic coast of South America, Africa,
> >> Portugal, Spain and France have been alerted and attempted to contact
>
> >> the airplane without success. Attempts to locate the airplane using
> >> civil and military radars from both west and east coasts (including
> >> France) of the Atlantic also proved unsuccessful. The airplane
> >> entered service in 2005 and had accumulated 18870 flights hours. The
> >> captain had 11700 flight hours, one of the first officers had 3000,
>the other 6600 flight hours.
> >>
> >> Sources within Air France reported, that the automatic message did
> >> not only report an electrical short circuit, but also the loss of
> >> cabin pressure. This information has been confirmed by FAB, who also
> >> stated, that the position of the airplane was given as N3.5777
> >> W30.3744 in that message.
> >>
> >> New information provided by sources within Air France suggests, that
> >> the ACARS messages of system failures started to arrive at 02:10Z
> >> indicating, that the autopilot had disengaged and the fly by wire
> >> system had changed to alternate law. Between 02:11Z and 02:13Z a
> >> flurry of messages regarding ADIRU and ISIS faults arrived, at 02:13Z
>
> >> PRIM 1 and SEC 1 faults were indicated, at 02:14Z the last message
> >> received was an advisory regarding cabin vertical speed. That
> >> sequence of messages could not be independently verified."
> >>
> >> Then I was reading the comments this gentleman received after his
> >> meteorogical analysis of the weather conditions at the time of the
> >> crash:
> >>
> >> http://www.weathergraphics.com/tim/af447/
> >>
> >> and up popped the topic of lead-free. You'll see that in the
>comments.
> >>
> >>
> >> Then I found this from an article that Mike Buetow wrote back in
>2004:
> >>
> >>
> >> "The sky was the limit for lead-free, literally. Declarations from
> >> Europe and elsewhere led us to believe that electronics for military
> >> and aerospace applications would be exempt from bans on lead.
> >> Suppliers to companies in those sectors were flying high, believing
> >> that under the EU directives (WEEE and RoHS) they were off the radar.
> >>
> >> None of that is stopping Airbus from taking a closer look, querying
> >> its suppliers on their use of lead and other materials on the EU hit
>list.
> >> In a Jan. 9 letter, a copy of which was obtained by PCD&M, Airbus
> >> France director of procurement quality and supply chain equipment
> >> Jean-Philippe Bedos explained: "For Airbus, both directives and the
> >> associated planning are applicable."
> >>
> >> By contract, the European airplane consortium prohibits its equipment
>
> >> suppliers from using materials "forbidden by national and
> >> international regulations, or likely to be...." The statement clearly
>
> >> implies WEEE and RoHS. With that in mind, Airbus submitted to its
> >> suppliers a 46-question form asking about lead use. Responses, wrote
> >> Bedos, will be analyzed by Airbus and "will initiate an exchange and
> >> a follow up of your process and the possible corrective actions to
>mitigate the risks."
> >>
> >> That's not all. The consortium is also putting the onus for
> >> end-of-life disposal squarely on its suppliers. In an October
> >> presentation by Airbus UK's environmental affairs coordinator, a
> >> slide listing environmental requirements for Airbus' suppliers
> >> included this
> >> statement: "In particular for electrical and electronic equipment,
> >> supplier responsibility for the elimination of the corresponding
> >> waste at the end of life of the delivered product including
> >> packaging, unless otherwise agreed with Airbus." (Ever tried to throw
>
> >> out a plane? It's not as easy as it looks.)
> >>
> >> For products delivered after July 1, 2006, Airbus is mandating its
> >> suppliers attest in writing that their products contain no lead,
> >> cadmium or other substances (including polybrominated biphenyls, or
> >> PBBs; and polybrominated dephenyl ethers, or PBDEs) banned per the
>RoHS Directive.
> >> And if Airbus succumbs, it says here it's only a matter of time until
>
> >> Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman and the other primes
>follow.
> >>
> >> ...For now, confusion reigns. Will it end before airplane parts rain,
>
> >> too?"
> >>
> >>
> >> So, it begs the question; COULD this have something to do with
> >> lead-free avionics?
> >>
> >> Steve
> >>
> >> P.S. During my searches, I ran across this. If you're into aviation,
> >> you'll like it.
> >>
> >> http://www.gillesvidal.com/blogpano/cockpit1.htm
> >>
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