You are right Brian. At Boeing, the attitude was "belt, suspenders and
'hero rope' to keep one's pant's on". This was 30 years ago but I don't think
much has changed beyond the internationalization already mentioned.
Joe
In a message dated 6/4/2009 6:38:44 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
What is sure is that both makers have critical avionics with at least 2
x redundancy, often 3 x, usually from different suppliers or batches.
Brian
Reuven Rokah wrote:
> Hi Werner,
> I hope Airbus will clarify this issue (LF in their electrical systems).
> As far as I know from a technical presentation of Airbus I have seen
(April 2004), the transition date was 2006.
> Is it include this airplane? I don't know.
>
> Reuven
> Think green before printing this mail... Thanks
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Werner Engelmaier /*
> Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 3:47 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Flight 447
>
> I doubt very much that any aircraft has Pb-free solder joints at this
point—and any speculation about Flight 447 at this point is not warranted.
> There are however, other considerations.
> Boeing aircraft are not totally by (electrical) wire, but have back-up
hydraulic systems and pop-out emergency turbines that generate electricity
from the airplane velocity to operate the hydraulics [I do not know if that
applies to all Boeing aircraft, and whether or not Airbuses have something
similar—but Airbuses do not have hydraulic systems].
> So, I do in fact choose my airline, to some degree at least, on the
planes they fly.
> Werner
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joyce Koo <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 8:24 am
> Subject: Re: [TN] Flight 447
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Agree with IngeMar! With my recent trip involved 2 problem aircrafts;
one
> electrical wire fail, and the other with engin problem(same model of
aircraft),
> I would like to know a bit more. With technet resourceful background in
high
> rel asy, discussion could be beneficial to prevent future failure. Not
say I
> can hand pick my aircraft upon travel, but picking an airline might be
in the
> consideration for me in my future travel.
> --------------------------
> Sent using BlackBerry
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Thu Jun 04 06:06:05 2009
> Subject: Re: [TN] Flight 447
>
> For the first time, I don't agree fully with you, Brian.
> I think
> calling the discussion SCUTTLEBUTT and GOSSIP is little hard. Those who
> really do that are journalists (not all)who make little extra money,
while the
> TN guys who were discussing are quite the opposite. I can't see bad guys
behind
> the messages that have passed, but professionel and serious engineers,
who try
> to learn and understand from this sad event. If the correspondens stays
within
> etics and good manner, I can't see why these guys had to be knocked out
like
> that.
> Sorry for having another opinion..
> /Inge
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brian Ellis
> Sent: torsdag 4 juni 2009 09:15
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Flight 447
>
> I think it ill-becomes any of us to speculate on the cause of this tragic
> accident or to follow the equally speculative sequence of events.
> and especially the implication of it being a European plane. A few years
ago,
> before I retired, I was in contact with experts in both Boeing and
Airbus about
> lead-free reliability. I was informed that they had a common study group
and
> that much of the avionics used was common to both makers. My
interlocutors were
> the Boeing Director of Environmental Affairs and Senior Scientist of
> International SHEA
>
> Until (if ever) we have facts about this accident, IMHO, we would be
wiser to
> stop the speculation which really amounts to nothing but SCUTTLEBUTT and
GOSSIP.
>
> Brian
>
> Ken Bloomquist wrote:
>> Hi Genny,
>>
>> I just read this from the weather site that was ment
> ioned earlier:
>> Hello Tim, Check out "tin whiskers" in Google Some enlightening
>> information there My cousin works for BAE Systems, and has some
theories on
>> this& His words, "The first aircraft to be 100% completely ROHS
compliant.
>> (NO LEAD in the solder.) I said it 5 years back.. They could not give
me a
>> book of unlimited flight coupons on this craft... I'd swap it for a
D90.
>> :) http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/brazil_plane
>> Be well!
>> Jim H---
>>
>> The web site where I got this was
>> http://www.weathergraphics.com/tim/af447/
>>
>> KennyB
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Genny Gibbard [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 9:44 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [TN] Test
>>
>> So was the Airbus 330 leadfree or not? I was trying to google it and
>> wasn't finding any info on that, other than the one comment on that
>> link.
>>
>>
>> Genny
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Steve Gregory
>> Sent: June 3, 2009 10:02 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [TN] Test
>>
>> Everyone passed (GRIN). Why I did the test was because I was trying to
>> post a message about the AF447 crash and my message kept getting
>> kicked back with this:
>>
>> Your message did not reach some or all of the intended recipients.
>>
>> Subject: [TN] Off-topic Discussion; AF447 Crash
>> Sent: 6/3/2009 10:12 AM
>>
>> The following recipien
> t(s) could not be reached:
>> [log in to unmask] on 6/3/2009 10:12 AM
>> There was a SMTP communication problem with the
>> recipient's email server. Please contact your system administrator.
>> <OWA.OAIELECTRONICS.COM #5.5.0 smtp;550 Denied by policy.>
>>
>>
>> Let's see if I can post it in this reply...
>>
>> While it may never be known what caused the tragic crash of AF447, it
>> raises some real questions about what happened.
>>
>> Having flown for over 12-years while in the Navy, any big accident
>> attracts my attention because of my interest in aviation. I've been
>> following this event quite closely to try and learn what might have
>> happened, and learned that there have been several incidents involving
>> failures of the ADIRU (Air Data Inertial Reference Unit) on A320's,
>> other A330's, and 777's that caused the aircraft to depart controlled
>> flight. Below is from a link about the AF447 crash that I was reading:
>>
>> "Air France reported, that they had received an automatic message from
>> the airplane reporting an electrical short circuit and the failure of
>> multiple systems at 02:14Z. Air Traffic Control as well as Military
>> Stations along the Atlantic coast of South America, Africa, Portugal,
>> Spain and France have been alerted and attempted to contact the
>> airplane without success. Attempts to locate the airplane using civil
>> and military radars from both west and east coasts20(including France)
>> of the Atlantic also proved unsuccessful. The airplane entered service
>> in 2005 and had accumulated 18870 flights hours. The captain had 11700
>> flight hours, one of the first officers had 3000, the other 6600 flight
hours.
>>
>> Sources within Air France reported, that the automatic message did not
>> only report an electrical short circuit, but also the loss of cabin
>> pressure. This information has been confirmed by FAB, who also stated,
>> that the position of the airplane was given as N3.5777 W30.3744 in
>> that message.
>>
>> New information provided by sources within Air France suggests, that
>> the ACARS messages of system failures started to arrive at 02:10Z
>> indicating, that the autopilot had disengaged and the fly by wire
>> system had changed to alternate law. Between 02:11Z and 02:13Z a
>> flurry of messages regarding ADIRU and ISIS faults arrived, at 02:13Z
>> PRIM 1 and SEC 1 faults were indicated, at 02:14Z the last message
>> received was an advisory regarding cabin vertical speed. That sequence
>> of messages could not be independently verified."
>>
>> Then I was reading the comments this gentleman received after his
>> meteorogical analysis of the weather conditions at the time of the
>> crash:
>>
>> http://www.weathergraphics.com/tim/af447/
>>
>> and up popped the topic of lead-free. You'll see that in the comments.
>>
>>
>> Then I found this from an article that Mike Buetow wrote back in 2004:
>>
>>
>> "The sky was=2
> 0the limit for lead-free, literally. Declarations from
>> Europe and elsewhere led us to believe that electronics for military
>> and aerospace applications would be exempt from bans on lead.
>> Suppliers to companies in those sectors were flying high, believing
>> that under the EU directives (WEEE and RoHS) they were off the radar.
>>
>> None of that is stopping Airbus from taking a closer look, querying
>> its suppliers on their use of lead and other materials on the EU hit
list.
>> In a Jan. 9 letter, a copy of which was obtained by PCD&M, Airbus
>> France director of procurement quality and supply chain equipment
>> Jean-Philippe Bedos explained: "For Airbus, both directives and the
>> associated planning are applicable."
>>
>> By contract, the European airplane consortium prohibits its equipment
>> suppliers from using materials "forbidden by national and
>> international regulations, or likely to be...." The statement clearly
>> implies WEEE and RoHS. With that in mind, Airbus submitted to its
>> suppliers a 46-question form asking about lead use. Responses, wrote
>> Bedos, will be analyzed by Airbus and "will initiate an exchange and a
>> follow up of your process and the possible corrective actions to
mitigate the
> risks."
>> That's not all. The consortium is also putting the onus for
>> end-of-life disposal squarely on its suppliers. In an October
>> presentation by Airbus UK's environmental affairs coordinator, a slide
>> listing environmental requirements for Airbus' supplier
> s included this
>> statement: "In particular for electrical and electronic equipment,
>> supplier responsibility for the elimination of the corresponding waste
>> at the end of life of the delivered product including packaging,
>> unless otherwise agreed with Airbus." (Ever tried to throw out a
>> plane? It's not as easy as it looks.)
>>
>> For products delivered after July 1, 2006, Airbus is mandating its
>> suppliers attest in writing that their products contain no lead,
>> cadmium or other substances (including polybrominated biphenyls, or
>> PBBs; and polybrominated dephenyl ethers, or PBDEs) banned per the RoHS
> Directive.
>> And if Airbus succumbs, it says here it's only a matter of time until
>> Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman and the other primes follow.
>>
>> ...For now, confusion reigns. Will it end before airplane parts rain,
>> too?"
>>
>>
>> So, it begs the question; COULD this have something to do with
>> lead-free avionics?
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> P.S. During my searches, I ran across this. If you're into aviation,
>> you'll like it.
>>
>> http://www.gillesvidal.com/blogpano/cockpit1.htm
>>
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