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Subject:
From:
Steve Gregory <[log in to unmask]>
Reply To:
TechNet E-Mail Forum <[log in to unmask]>, Steve Gregory <[log in to unmask]>
Date:
Thu, 4 Jun 2009 07:16:34 -0500
Content-Type:
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text/plain (375 lines)
Since I was the one who started all this, I want to try to explain
myself.

As I said, I flew for 12-years on P-3's while in the Navy, so I follow
any aircraft mishap with interest to try and understand why things may
have happened. I belong to another forum (http://www.centerseat.net/)
consisting of current and former P-3 flight engineers because I like to
stay connected with former shipmates and to something that was a big
part of my life.

I do have questions about the reliability of lead-free electronics as do
many on this forum, as evidenced by the numerous discussions about this
topic in the past.

You are absolutely right Brian, I don't know the cause. But I somewhat
disagree with you about not discussing it, or having honest questions
about what may have happened. I figured that I would just ask the
question, because there are those on this list who I consider the worlds
experts on whether lead-free soldering should be used in aircraft
electronics. Especially in systems that depend on those electronics to
keep the plane in the air.

I started out my previous post by saying how tragic this was, and my
thoughts and prayers are with everybody that suffered a loss from this.

But I was just asking an honest question...

Sorry if I offended anyone.

Steve 

-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brian Ellis
Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 5:55 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Flight 447

Sorry, but I stand by what I said. Speculation about whiskers, lead-free
or weather (or anything else) being the cause is just that, speculation,
not serious engineering or science. As for statements comparing Airbus
safety with Boeing, they have very similar records, so that it is
irresponsible to imply otherwise. Neither you nor I know what happened
and I firmly believe that neither we nor journalists of any class of
media are in  any position to discuss it until (if ever) we have more
positive and reliable information. Let's not forget the 228 persons on
board and not disgrace their memory by futile speculation.

Brian

Hernefjord Ingemar wrote:
> For the first time, I don't agree fully with you, Brian. 
> I think calling the discussion SCUTTLEBUTT and GOSSIP is little hard.
Those who really do that are journalists (not all)who make little extra
money, while the TN guys who were discussing are quite the opposite. I
can't see bad guys behind the messages that have passed, but
professionel and serious  engineers, who try to learn and understand
from this sad event. If the correspondens stays within etics and good
manner, I can't see why these guys had to be knocked out like that.
> Sorry for having another opinion..
> /Inge
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brian Ellis
> Sent: torsdag 4 juni 2009 09:15
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Flight 447
> 
> I think it ill-becomes any of us to speculate on the cause of this
tragic accident or to follow the equally speculative sequence of events.

> and especially the implication of it being a European plane. A few 
> years ago, before I retired, I was in contact with experts in both 
> Boeing and Airbus about lead-free reliability. I was informed that 
> they had a common study group and that much of the avionics used was 
> common to both makers. My interlocutors were the Boeing Director of 
> Environmental Affairs and Senior Scientist of International SHEA
> 
> Until (if ever) we have facts about this accident, IMHO, we would be
wiser to stop the speculation which really amounts to nothing but
SCUTTLEBUTT and GOSSIP.
> 
> Brian
> 
> Ken Bloomquist wrote:
>> Hi Genny,
>>
>> I just read this from the weather site that was mentioned earlier:
>>
>> Hello Tim,   Check out "tin whiskers" in Google  Some enlightening
>> information there  My cousin works for BAE Systems, and has some
theories on
>> this&   His words, "The first aircraft to be 100% completely ROHS
compliant.
>> (NO LEAD in the solder.) I said it 5 years back.. They could not give
me a
>> book of unlimited flight coupons on this craft...   I'd swap it for a
D90.
>> :)   http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/brazil_plane
>> Be well!
>> Jim H---
>>
>> The web site where I got this was
>> http://www.weathergraphics.com/tim/af447/
>>
>> KennyB
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Genny Gibbard [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 9:44 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [TN] Test
>>
>> So was the Airbus 330 leadfree or not?  I was trying to google it and

>> wasn't finding any info on that, other than the one comment on that 
>> link.
>>
>>
>> Genny
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Steve Gregory
>> Sent: June 3, 2009 10:02 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [TN] Test
>>
>> Everyone passed (GRIN). Why I did the test was because I was trying 
>> to post a message about the AF447 crash and my message kept getting 
>> kicked back with this:
>>
>> Your message did not reach some or all of the intended recipients.
>>
>>       Subject:	[TN] Off-topic Discussion; AF447 Crash
>>       Sent:	6/3/2009 10:12 AM
>>
>> The following recipient(s) could not be reached:
>>
>>       [log in to unmask] on 6/3/2009 10:12 AM
>>             There was a SMTP communication problem with the 
>> recipient's email server.  Please contact your system administrator.
>>             <OWA.OAIELECTRONICS.COM #5.5.0 smtp;550 Denied by 
>> policy.>
>>
>>
>> Let's see if I can post it in this reply...
>>
>> While it may never be known what caused the tragic crash of AF447, it

>> raises some real questions about what happened.
>>  
>> Having flown for over 12-years while in the Navy, any big accident 
>> attracts my attention because of my interest in aviation. I've been 
>> following this event quite closely to try and learn what might have 
>> happened, and learned that there have been several incidents 
>> involving failures of the ADIRU (Air Data Inertial Reference Unit) on

>> A320's, other A330's, and 777's that caused the aircraft to depart 
>> controlled flight. Below is from a link about the AF447 crash that I
was reading:
>>  
>> "Air France reported, that they had received an automatic message 
>> from the airplane reporting an electrical short circuit and the 
>> failure of multiple systems at 02:14Z. Air Traffic Control as well as

>> Military Stations along the Atlantic coast of South America, Africa, 
>> Portugal, Spain and France have been alerted and attempted to contact

>> the airplane without success. Attempts to locate the airplane using 
>> civil and military radars from both west and east coasts (including 
>> France) of the Atlantic also proved unsuccessful. The airplane 
>> entered service in 2005 and had accumulated 18870 flights hours. The 
>> captain had 11700 flight hours, one of the first officers had 3000,
the other 6600 flight hours.
>>
>> Sources within Air France reported, that the automatic message did 
>> not only report an electrical short circuit, but also the loss of 
>> cabin pressure. This information has been confirmed by FAB, who also 
>> stated, that the position of the airplane was given as N3.5777 
>> W30.3744 in that message.
>>
>> New information provided by sources within Air France suggests, that 
>> the ACARS messages of system failures started to arrive at 02:10Z 
>> indicating, that the autopilot had disengaged and the fly by wire 
>> system had changed to alternate law. Between 02:11Z and 02:13Z a 
>> flurry of messages regarding ADIRU and ISIS faults arrived, at 02:13Z

>> PRIM 1 and SEC 1 faults were indicated, at 02:14Z the last message 
>> received was an advisory regarding cabin vertical speed. That 
>> sequence of messages could not be independently verified."
>>
>> Then I was reading the comments this gentleman received after his 
>> meteorogical analysis of the weather conditions at the time of the
>> crash:
>>
>> http://www.weathergraphics.com/tim/af447/
>>  
>> and up popped the topic of lead-free. You'll see that in the
comments.
>>  
>>
>> Then I found this from an article that Mike Buetow wrote back in
2004:
>>
>>
>> "The sky was the limit for lead-free, literally. Declarations from 
>> Europe and elsewhere led us to believe that electronics for military 
>> and aerospace applications would be exempt from bans on lead.
>> Suppliers to companies in those sectors were flying high, believing 
>> that under the EU directives (WEEE and RoHS) they were off the radar.
>>
>> None of that is stopping Airbus from taking a closer look, querying 
>> its suppliers on their use of lead and other materials on the EU hit
list.
>> In a Jan. 9 letter, a copy of which was obtained by PCD&M, Airbus 
>> France director of procurement quality and supply chain equipment 
>> Jean-Philippe Bedos explained: "For Airbus, both directives and the 
>> associated planning are applicable."
>>
>> By contract, the European airplane consortium prohibits its equipment

>> suppliers from using materials "forbidden by national and 
>> international regulations, or likely to be...." The statement clearly

>> implies WEEE and RoHS. With that in mind, Airbus submitted to its 
>> suppliers a 46-question form asking about lead use. Responses, wrote 
>> Bedos, will be analyzed by Airbus and "will initiate an exchange and 
>> a follow up of your process and the possible corrective actions to
mitigate the risks."
>>
>> That's not all. The consortium is also putting the onus for 
>> end-of-life disposal squarely on its suppliers. In an October 
>> presentation by Airbus UK's environmental affairs coordinator, a 
>> slide listing environmental requirements for Airbus' suppliers 
>> included this
>> statement: "In particular for electrical and electronic equipment, 
>> supplier responsibility for the elimination of the corresponding 
>> waste at the end of life of the delivered product including 
>> packaging, unless otherwise agreed with Airbus." (Ever tried to throw

>> out a plane? It's not as easy as it looks.)
>>
>> For products delivered after July 1, 2006, Airbus is mandating its 
>> suppliers attest in writing that their products contain no lead, 
>> cadmium or other substances (including polybrominated biphenyls, or 
>> PBBs; and polybrominated dephenyl ethers, or PBDEs) banned per the
RoHS Directive.
>> And if Airbus succumbs, it says here it's only a matter of time until

>> Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman and the other primes
follow.
>>
>> ...For now, confusion reigns. Will it end before airplane parts rain,

>> too?"
>>
>>
>> So, it begs the question; COULD this have something to do with 
>> lead-free avionics?
>>  
>> Steve
>>  
>> P.S. During my searches, I ran across this. If you're into aviation, 
>> you'll like it.
>>  
>> http://www.gillesvidal.com/blogpano/cockpit1.htm
>>
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