At 05:27 AM 6/8/2009, Steve Gregory wrote:
>Hey Dwight,
>
>Here's a video clip of a cross-breed between a Hawkeye and an a Orion:
Great link. Thx. That airframe must be like riding in a Cadillac,
headroom, kitchen, head -- sweet. Even an old man with a herniated
L4/L5 would enjoy that ride.
Had/have old shopmates in that P3 AEW program from the start (started
as Customs or DES I recollect). I was tempted to apply at my EAOS
but my fresh sheepskin was opening up other opportunities closer to
San Dog at the time.
It was just getting up and running when I hit EAOS -- the guys here
having a lot fun trying to make it work. Sounded like a bit of an
abortion at the start running a modified system on a AYK-14 or some
such computer instead of the E2's old Litton 304 (with it's whopping
110K of ferrite core memory). I'm guessing they started with an
APS-143. At the time that was the latest and greatest. I recollect
they left out all the raw radar videos and relied on all processed
video from the git go. Where's the fun in that? I suppose the Long
Pulse and Short Pulse videos are long gone from the the E2 now as
well. <sigh>
Real men always keep some raw video running in the background, use a
Long Pulse Nav Fix for backup to the INS, are hunchbacked, keep their
sodas cool in the aft equipment compartment floor and heat their
sliders on the WRA-37 filament power supply. /heh Yeah, the
older I get the better I was. /double heh. :-)
Now the Son&Heir is up for his turn in the barrel. Graduates HS this
week, goes off to Maritime Academy in August to pursue Mech Eng on a
Marine NROTC scholarship. He has no interest in going aviation MOS
though. Yep, smart boy. Learns from the mistakes of his father. >:-}
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqCtrB_FZvE
>
>Who would've thunk?
>
>Steve
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Dwight Mattix [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 3:48 PM
>To: Steve Gregory
>Cc: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: RE: [TN] Flight 447
>
>I remember singing cadence while double timing around Pensacola (NACCS
>circa Jan/Feb '84),
>
>"I wanna be a P3 sailor.
>I wanna fly across the sea.
>I wanna be a P3 sailor.
>Flightdeck ain't no place for me"
>
>To late for me by then. I already had orders before I even left
>Millington to the VAW RAG in Norfolk for E2C-IFT syllabus.
>
>Of course there were other memorable marching cadences but this is a
>family forum so they're best left untold. /heh
>
>
>At 01:24 PM 6/4/2009, you wrote:
> >HAR, HAR, HAR!!
> >
> >Say all ya' want, but I gotta say this about flying P-3's, 15-years and
> >no BOAT TIME! (GRIN)
> >No tailhook on that puppy!
> >
> >also a recovering sailor
> >
> >Ex-AMS1 8251 Instructor
> >IBNFE (International Brotherhood of Naval Flight Engineers)
> >
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Dwight Mattix [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> >Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 12:35 PM
> >To: TechNet E-Mail Forum; Steve Gregory; [log in to unmask]
> >Subject: Re: [TN] Flight 447
> >
> >At 05:16 AM 6/4/2009, Steve Gregory wrote:
> > >Since I was the one who started all this, I want to try to explain
> > >myself.
> > >
> > >As I said, I flew for 12-years on P-3's while in the Navy,
> >
> >Oh P-3's! Sorry, I thought you were in Naval Air.
> >
> >/snark/snicker :-)
> >
> >a recovering sailor,
> >dw
> >
> >AT1, EAWS, NAC, E2-C IFT
> >
> >
> > > so I follow
> > >any aircraft mishap with interest to try and understand why things
>may
> > >have happened. I belong to another forum (http://www.centerseat.net/)
> > >consisting of current and former P-3 flight engineers because I like
>to
> >
> > >stay connected with former shipmates and to something that was a big
> > >part of my life.
> > >
> > >I do have questions about the reliability of lead-free electronics as
> > >do many on this forum, as evidenced by the numerous discussions about
> > >this topic in the past.
> > >
> > >You are absolutely right Brian, I don't know the cause. But I
>somewhat
> > >disagree with you about not discussing it, or having honest questions
> > >about what may have happened. I figured that I would just ask the
> > >question, because there are those on this list who I consider the
> > >worlds experts on whether lead-free soldering should be used in
> > >aircraft electronics. Especially in systems that depend on those
> > >electronics to keep the plane in the air.
> > >
> > >I started out my previous post by saying how tragic this was, and my
> > >thoughts and prayers are with everybody that suffered a loss from
>this.
> > >
> > >But I was just asking an honest question...
> > >
> > >Sorry if I offended anyone.
> > >
> > >Steve
> > >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brian Ellis
> > >Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 5:55 AM
> > >To: [log in to unmask]
> > >Subject: Re: [TN] Flight 447
> > >
> > >Sorry, but I stand by what I said. Speculation about whiskers,
> > >lead-free or weather (or anything else) being the cause is just that,
> > >speculation, not serious engineering or science. As for statements
> > >comparing Airbus safety with Boeing, they have very similar records,
>so
> >
> > >that it is irresponsible to imply otherwise. Neither you nor I know
> > >what happened and I firmly believe that neither we nor journalists of
> > >any class of media are in any position to discuss it until (if ever)
> > >we have more positive and reliable information. Let's not forget the
> > >228 persons on board and not disgrace their memory by futile
> >speculation.
> > >
> > >Brian
> > >
> > >Hernefjord Ingemar wrote:
> > > > For the first time, I don't agree fully with you, Brian.
> > > > I think calling the discussion SCUTTLEBUTT and GOSSIP is little
> >hard.
> > >Those who really do that are journalists (not all)who make little
>extra
> >
> > >money, while the TN guys who were discussing are quite the opposite.
>I
> > >can't see bad guys behind the messages that have passed, but
> > >professionel and serious engineers, who try to learn and understand
> > >from this sad event. If the correspondens stays within etics and good
> > >manner, I can't see why these guys had to be knocked out like that.
> > > > Sorry for having another opinion..
> > > > /Inge
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brian Ellis
> > > > Sent: torsdag 4 juni 2009 09:15
> > > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > > Subject: Re: [TN] Flight 447
> > > >
> > > > I think it ill-becomes any of us to speculate on the cause of this
> > >tragic accident or to follow the equally speculative sequence of
> >events.
> > >
> > > > and especially the implication of it being a European plane. A few
> > > > years ago, before I retired, I was in contact with experts in both
> > > > Boeing and Airbus about lead-free reliability. I was informed that
> > > > they had a common study group and that much of the avionics used
>was
> >
> > > > common to both makers. My interlocutors were the Boeing Director
>of
> > > > Environmental Affairs and Senior Scientist of International SHEA
> > > >
> > > > Until (if ever) we have facts about this accident, IMHO, we would
>be
> > >wiser to stop the speculation which really amounts to nothing but
> > >SCUTTLEBUTT and GOSSIP.
> > > >
> > > > Brian
> > > >
> > > > Ken Bloomquist wrote:
> > > >> Hi Genny,
> > > >>
> > > >> I just read this from the weather site that was mentioned
>earlier:
> > > >>
> > > >> Hello Tim, Check out "tin whiskers" in Google Some
>enlightening
> > > >> information there My cousin works for BAE Systems, and has some
> > >theories on
> > > >> this& His words, "The first aircraft to be 100% completely ROHS
> > >compliant.
> > > >> (NO LEAD in the solder.) I said it 5 years back.. They could not
> > > >> give
> > >me a
> > > >> book of unlimited flight coupons on this craft... I'd swap it
>for
> >a
> > >D90.
> > > >> :) http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/brazil_plane
> > > >> Be well!
> > > >> Jim H---
> > > >>
> > > >> The web site where I got this was
> > > >> http://www.weathergraphics.com/tim/af447/
> > > >>
> > > >> KennyB
> > > >>
> > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > >> From: Genny Gibbard [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > > >> Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 9:44 AM
> > > >> To: [log in to unmask]
> > > >> Subject: Re: [TN] Test
> > > >>
> > > >> So was the Airbus 330 leadfree or not? I was trying to google it
> > > >> and
> > >
> > > >> wasn't finding any info on that, other than the one comment on
>that
> >
> > > >> link.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Genny
> > > >>
> > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > >> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Steve Gregory
> > > >> Sent: June 3, 2009 10:02 AM
> > > >> To: [log in to unmask]
> > > >> Subject: Re: [TN] Test
> > > >>
> > > >> Everyone passed (GRIN). Why I did the test was because I was
>trying
> >
> > > >> to post a message about the AF447 crash and my message kept
>getting
> >
> > > >> kicked back with this:
> > > >>
> > > >> Your message did not reach some or all of the intended
>recipients.
> > > >>
> > > >> Subject: [TN] Off-topic Discussion; AF447 Crash
> > > >> Sent: 6/3/2009 10:12 AM
> > > >>
> > > >> The following recipient(s) could not be reached:
> > > >>
> > > >> [log in to unmask] on 6/3/2009 10:12 AM
> > > >> There was a SMTP communication problem with the
> > > >> recipient's email server. Please contact your system
> >administrator.
> > > >> <OWA.OAIELECTRONICS.COM #5.5.0 smtp;550 Denied by
> > > >> policy.>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Let's see if I can post it in this reply...
> > > >>
> > > >> While it may never be known what caused the tragic crash of
>AF447,
> > > >> it
> > >
> > > >> raises some real questions about what happened.
> > > >>
> > > >> Having flown for over 12-years while in the Navy, any big
>accident
> > > >> attracts my attention because of my interest in aviation. I've
>been
> >
> > > >> following this event quite closely to try and learn what might
>have
> >
> > > >> happened, and learned that there have been several incidents
> > > >> involving failures of the ADIRU (Air Data Inertial Reference
>Unit)
> > > >> on
> > >
> > > >> A320's, other A330's, and 777's that caused the aircraft to
>depart
> > > >> controlled flight. Below is from a link about the AF447 crash
>that
> > > >> I
> > >was reading:
> > > >>
> > > >> "Air France reported, that they had received an automatic message
> > > >> from the airplane reporting an electrical short circuit and the
> > > >> failure of multiple systems at 02:14Z. Air Traffic Control as
>well
> > > >> as
> > >
> > > >> Military Stations along the Atlantic coast of South America,
> > > >> Africa, Portugal, Spain and France have been alerted and
>attempted
> > > >> to contact
> > >
> > > >> the airplane without success. Attempts to locate the airplane
>using
> >
> > > >> civil and military radars from both west and east coasts
>(including
> > > >> France) of the Atlantic also proved unsuccessful. The airplane
> > > >> entered service in 2005 and had accumulated 18870 flights hours.
> > > >> The captain had 11700 flight hours, one of the first officers had
> > > >> 3000,
> > >the other 6600 flight hours.
> > > >>
> > > >> Sources within Air France reported, that the automatic message
>did
> > > >> not only report an electrical short circuit, but also the loss of
> > > >> cabin pressure. This information has been confirmed by FAB, who
> > > >> also stated, that the position of the airplane was given as
>N3.5777
> > > >> W30.3744 in that message.
> > > >>
> > > >> New information provided by sources within Air France suggests,
> > > >> that the ACARS messages of system failures started to arrive at
> > > >> 02:10Z indicating, that the autopilot had disengaged and the fly
>by
> >
> > > >> wire system had changed to alternate law. Between 02:11Z and
>02:13Z
> >
> > > >> a flurry of messages regarding ADIRU and ISIS faults arrived, at
> > > >> 02:13Z
> > >
> > > >> PRIM 1 and SEC 1 faults were indicated, at 02:14Z the last
>message
> > > >> received was an advisory regarding cabin vertical speed. That
> > > >> sequence of messages could not be independently verified."
> > > >>
> > > >> Then I was reading the comments this gentleman received after his
> > > >> meteorogical analysis of the weather conditions at the time of
>the
> > > >> crash:
> > > >>
> > > >> http://www.weathergraphics.com/tim/af447/
> > > >>
> > > >> and up popped the topic of lead-free. You'll see that in the
> > >comments.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Then I found this from an article that Mike Buetow wrote back in
> > >2004:
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> "The sky was the limit for lead-free, literally. Declarations
>from
> > > >> Europe and elsewhere led us to believe that electronics for
> > > >> military and aerospace applications would be exempt from bans on
> >lead.
> > > >> Suppliers to companies in those sectors were flying high,
>believing
> >
> > > >> that under the EU directives (WEEE and RoHS) they were off the
> >radar.
> > > >>
> > > >> None of that is stopping Airbus from taking a closer look,
>querying
> >
> > > >> its suppliers on their use of lead and other materials on the EU
> > > >> hit
> > >list.
> > > >> In a Jan. 9 letter, a copy of which was obtained by PCD&M, Airbus
> > > >> France director of procurement quality and supply chain equipment
> > > >> Jean-Philippe Bedos explained: "For Airbus, both directives and
>the
> >
> > > >> associated planning are applicable."
> > > >>
> > > >> By contract, the European airplane consortium prohibits its
> > > >> equipment
> > >
> > > >> suppliers from using materials "forbidden by national and
> > > >> international regulations, or likely to be...." The statement
> > > >> clearly
> > >
> > > >> implies WEEE and RoHS. With that in mind, Airbus submitted to its
> > > >> suppliers a 46-question form asking about lead use. Responses,
> > > >> wrote Bedos, will be analyzed by Airbus and "will initiate an
> > > >> exchange and a follow up of your process and the possible
> > > >> corrective actions to
> > >mitigate the risks."
> > > >>
> > > >> That's not all. The consortium is also putting the onus for
> > > >> end-of-life disposal squarely on its suppliers. In an October
> > > >> presentation by Airbus UK's environmental affairs coordinator, a
> > > >> slide listing environmental requirements for Airbus' suppliers
> > > >> included this
> > > >> statement: "In particular for electrical and electronic
>equipment,
> > > >> supplier responsibility for the elimination of the corresponding
> > > >> waste at the end of life of the delivered product including
> > > >> packaging, unless otherwise agreed with Airbus." (Ever tried to
> > > >> throw
> > >
> > > >> out a plane? It's not as easy as it looks.)
> > > >>
> > > >> For products delivered after July 1, 2006, Airbus is mandating
>its
> > > >> suppliers attest in writing that their products contain no lead,
> > > >> cadmium or other substances (including polybrominated biphenyls,
>or
> >
> > > >> PBBs; and polybrominated dephenyl ethers, or PBDEs) banned per
>the
> > >RoHS Directive.
> > > >> And if Airbus succumbs, it says here it's only a matter of time
> > > >> until
> > >
> > > >> Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman and the other primes
> > >follow.
> > > >>
> > > >> ...For now, confusion reigns. Will it end before airplane parts
> > > >> rain,
> > >
> > > >> too?"
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> So, it begs the question; COULD this have something to do with
> > > >> lead-free avionics?
> > > >>
> > > >> Steve
> > > >>
> > > >> P.S. During my searches, I ran across this. If you're into
> > > >> aviation, you'll like it.
> > > >>
> > > >> http://www.gillesvidal.com/blogpano/cockpit1.htm
> > > >>
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