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Subject:
From:
Steve Gregory <[log in to unmask]>
Reply To:
TechNet E-Mail Forum <[log in to unmask]>, Steve Gregory <[log in to unmask]>
Date:
Mon, 8 Jun 2009 07:27:23 -0500
Content-Type:
text/plain
Parts/Attachments:
text/plain (578 lines)
Hey Dwight,

Here's a video clip of a cross-breed between a Hawkeye and an a Orion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqCtrB_FZvE

Who would've thunk?

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: Dwight Mattix [mailto:[log in to unmask]] 
Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 3:48 PM
To: Steve Gregory
Cc: [log in to unmask]
Subject: RE: [TN] Flight 447

I remember singing cadence while double timing around Pensacola (NACCS
circa Jan/Feb '84),

"I wanna be a P3 sailor.
I wanna fly across the sea.
I wanna be a P3 sailor.
Flightdeck ain't no place for me"

To late for me by then. I already had orders before I even left
Millington to the VAW RAG in Norfolk for E2C-IFT syllabus.

Of course there were other memorable marching cadences but this is a
family forum so they're best left untold.  /heh


At 01:24 PM 6/4/2009, you wrote:
>HAR, HAR, HAR!!
>
>Say all ya' want, but I gotta say this about flying P-3's, 15-years and
>no BOAT TIME! (GRIN)
>No tailhook on that puppy!
>
>also a recovering sailor
>
>Ex-AMS1 8251 Instructor
>IBNFE (International Brotherhood of Naval Flight Engineers)
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Dwight Mattix [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 12:35 PM
>To: TechNet E-Mail Forum; Steve Gregory; [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: [TN] Flight 447
>
>At 05:16 AM 6/4/2009, Steve Gregory wrote:
> >Since I was the one who started all this, I want to try to explain
> >myself.
> >
> >As I said, I flew for 12-years on P-3's while in the Navy,
>
>Oh P-3's!   Sorry, I thought you were in Naval Air.
>
>/snark/snicker :-)
>
>a recovering sailor,
>dw
>
>AT1, EAWS, NAC, E2-C IFT
>
>
> >  so I follow
> >any aircraft mishap with interest to try and understand why things
may
> >have happened. I belong to another forum (http://www.centerseat.net/)
> >consisting of current and former P-3 flight engineers because I like
to
>
> >stay connected with former shipmates and to something that was a big
> >part of my life.
> >
> >I do have questions about the reliability of lead-free electronics as
> >do many on this forum, as evidenced by the numerous discussions about
> >this topic in the past.
> >
> >You are absolutely right Brian, I don't know the cause. But I
somewhat
> >disagree with you about not discussing it, or having honest questions
> >about what may have happened. I figured that I would just ask the
> >question, because there are those on this list who I consider the
> >worlds experts on whether lead-free soldering should be used in
> >aircraft electronics. Especially in systems that depend on those
> >electronics to keep the plane in the air.
> >
> >I started out my previous post by saying how tragic this was, and my
> >thoughts and prayers are with everybody that suffered a loss from
this.
> >
> >But I was just asking an honest question...
> >
> >Sorry if I offended anyone.
> >
> >Steve
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brian Ellis
> >Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 5:55 AM
> >To: [log in to unmask]
> >Subject: Re: [TN] Flight 447
> >
> >Sorry, but I stand by what I said. Speculation about whiskers,
> >lead-free or weather (or anything else) being the cause is just that,
> >speculation, not serious engineering or science. As for statements
> >comparing Airbus safety with Boeing, they have very similar records,
so
>
> >that it is irresponsible to imply otherwise. Neither you nor I know
> >what happened and I firmly believe that neither we nor journalists of
> >any class of media are in  any position to discuss it until (if ever)
> >we have more positive and reliable information. Let's not forget the
> >228 persons on board and not disgrace their memory by futile
>speculation.
> >
> >Brian
> >
> >Hernefjord Ingemar wrote:
> > > For the first time, I don't agree fully with you, Brian.
> > > I think calling the discussion SCUTTLEBUTT and GOSSIP is little
>hard.
> >Those who really do that are journalists (not all)who make little
extra
>
> >money, while the TN guys who were discussing are quite the opposite.
I
> >can't see bad guys behind the messages that have passed, but
> >professionel and serious  engineers, who try to learn and understand
> >from this sad event. If the correspondens stays within etics and good
> >manner, I can't see why these guys had to be knocked out like that.
> > > Sorry for having another opinion..
> > > /Inge
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brian Ellis
> > > Sent: torsdag 4 juni 2009 09:15
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Subject: Re: [TN] Flight 447
> > >
> > > I think it ill-becomes any of us to speculate on the cause of this
> >tragic accident or to follow the equally speculative sequence of
>events.
> >
> > > and especially the implication of it being a European plane. A few
> > > years ago, before I retired, I was in contact with experts in both
> > > Boeing and Airbus about lead-free reliability. I was informed that
> > > they had a common study group and that much of the avionics used
was
>
> > > common to both makers. My interlocutors were the Boeing Director
of
> > > Environmental Affairs and Senior Scientist of International SHEA
> > >
> > > Until (if ever) we have facts about this accident, IMHO, we would
be
> >wiser to stop the speculation which really amounts to nothing but
> >SCUTTLEBUTT and GOSSIP.
> > >
> > > Brian
> > >
> > > Ken Bloomquist wrote:
> > >> Hi Genny,
> > >>
> > >> I just read this from the weather site that was mentioned
earlier:
> > >>
> > >> Hello Tim,   Check out "tin whiskers" in Google  Some
enlightening
> > >> information there  My cousin works for BAE Systems, and has some
> >theories on
> > >> this&   His words, "The first aircraft to be 100% completely ROHS
> >compliant.
> > >> (NO LEAD in the solder.) I said it 5 years back.. They could not
> > >> give
> >me a
> > >> book of unlimited flight coupons on this craft...   I'd swap it
for
>a
> >D90.
> > >> :)   http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/brazil_plane
> > >> Be well!
> > >> Jim H---
> > >>
> > >> The web site where I got this was
> > >> http://www.weathergraphics.com/tim/af447/
> > >>
> > >> KennyB
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: Genny Gibbard [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > >> Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 9:44 AM
> > >> To: [log in to unmask]
> > >> Subject: Re: [TN] Test
> > >>
> > >> So was the Airbus 330 leadfree or not?  I was trying to google it
> > >> and
> >
> > >> wasn't finding any info on that, other than the one comment on
that
>
> > >> link.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Genny
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Steve Gregory
> > >> Sent: June 3, 2009 10:02 AM
> > >> To: [log in to unmask]
> > >> Subject: Re: [TN] Test
> > >>
> > >> Everyone passed (GRIN). Why I did the test was because I was
trying
>
> > >> to post a message about the AF447 crash and my message kept
getting
>
> > >> kicked back with this:
> > >>
> > >> Your message did not reach some or all of the intended
recipients.
> > >>
> > >>       Subject:       [TN] Off-topic Discussion; AF447 Crash
> > >>       Sent:  6/3/2009 10:12 AM
> > >>
> > >> The following recipient(s) could not be reached:
> > >>
> > >>       [log in to unmask] on 6/3/2009 10:12 AM
> > >>             There was a SMTP communication problem with the
> > >> recipient's email server.  Please contact your system
>administrator.
> > >>             <OWA.OAIELECTRONICS.COM #5.5.0 smtp;550 Denied by
> > >> policy.>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Let's see if I can post it in this reply...
> > >>
> > >> While it may never be known what caused the tragic crash of
AF447,
> > >> it
> >
> > >> raises some real questions about what happened.
> > >>
> > >> Having flown for over 12-years while in the Navy, any big
accident
> > >> attracts my attention because of my interest in aviation. I've
been
>
> > >> following this event quite closely to try and learn what might
have
>
> > >> happened, and learned that there have been several incidents
> > >> involving failures of the ADIRU (Air Data Inertial Reference
Unit)
> > >> on
> >
> > >> A320's, other A330's, and 777's that caused the aircraft to
depart
> > >> controlled flight. Below is from a link about the AF447 crash
that
> > >> I
> >was reading:
> > >>
> > >> "Air France reported, that they had received an automatic message
> > >> from the airplane reporting an electrical short circuit and the
> > >> failure of multiple systems at 02:14Z. Air Traffic Control as
well
> > >> as
> >
> > >> Military Stations along the Atlantic coast of South America,
> > >> Africa, Portugal, Spain and France have been alerted and
attempted
> > >> to contact
> >
> > >> the airplane without success. Attempts to locate the airplane
using
>
> > >> civil and military radars from both west and east coasts
(including
> > >> France) of the Atlantic also proved unsuccessful. The airplane
> > >> entered service in 2005 and had accumulated 18870 flights hours.
> > >> The captain had 11700 flight hours, one of the first officers had
> > >> 3000,
> >the other 6600 flight hours.
> > >>
> > >> Sources within Air France reported, that the automatic message
did
> > >> not only report an electrical short circuit, but also the loss of
> > >> cabin pressure. This information has been confirmed by FAB, who
> > >> also stated, that the position of the airplane was given as
N3.5777
> > >> W30.3744 in that message.
> > >>
> > >> New information provided by sources within Air France suggests,
> > >> that the ACARS messages of system failures started to arrive at
> > >> 02:10Z indicating, that the autopilot had disengaged and the fly
by
>
> > >> wire system had changed to alternate law. Between 02:11Z and
02:13Z
>
> > >> a flurry of messages regarding ADIRU and ISIS faults arrived, at
> > >> 02:13Z
> >
> > >> PRIM 1 and SEC 1 faults were indicated, at 02:14Z the last
message
> > >> received was an advisory regarding cabin vertical speed. That
> > >> sequence of messages could not be independently verified."
> > >>
> > >> Then I was reading the comments this gentleman received after his
> > >> meteorogical analysis of the weather conditions at the time of
the
> > >> crash:
> > >>
> > >> http://www.weathergraphics.com/tim/af447/
> > >>
> > >> and up popped the topic of lead-free. You'll see that in the
> >comments.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Then I found this from an article that Mike Buetow wrote back in
> >2004:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> "The sky was the limit for lead-free, literally. Declarations
from
> > >> Europe and elsewhere led us to believe that electronics for
> > >> military and aerospace applications would be exempt from bans on
>lead.
> > >> Suppliers to companies in those sectors were flying high,
believing
>
> > >> that under the EU directives (WEEE and RoHS) they were off the
>radar.
> > >>
> > >> None of that is stopping Airbus from taking a closer look,
querying
>
> > >> its suppliers on their use of lead and other materials on the EU
> > >> hit
> >list.
> > >> In a Jan. 9 letter, a copy of which was obtained by PCD&M, Airbus
> > >> France director of procurement quality and supply chain equipment
> > >> Jean-Philippe Bedos explained: "For Airbus, both directives and
the
>
> > >> associated planning are applicable."
> > >>
> > >> By contract, the European airplane consortium prohibits its
> > >> equipment
> >
> > >> suppliers from using materials "forbidden by national and
> > >> international regulations, or likely to be...." The statement
> > >> clearly
> >
> > >> implies WEEE and RoHS. With that in mind, Airbus submitted to its
> > >> suppliers a 46-question form asking about lead use. Responses,
> > >> wrote Bedos, will be analyzed by Airbus and "will initiate an
> > >> exchange and a follow up of your process and the possible
> > >> corrective actions to
> >mitigate the risks."
> > >>
> > >> That's not all. The consortium is also putting the onus for
> > >> end-of-life disposal squarely on its suppliers. In an October
> > >> presentation by Airbus UK's environmental affairs coordinator, a
> > >> slide listing environmental requirements for Airbus' suppliers
> > >> included this
> > >> statement: "In particular for electrical and electronic
equipment,
> > >> supplier responsibility for the elimination of the corresponding
> > >> waste at the end of life of the delivered product including
> > >> packaging, unless otherwise agreed with Airbus." (Ever tried to
> > >> throw
> >
> > >> out a plane? It's not as easy as it looks.)
> > >>
> > >> For products delivered after July 1, 2006, Airbus is mandating
its
> > >> suppliers attest in writing that their products contain no lead,
> > >> cadmium or other substances (including polybrominated biphenyls,
or
>
> > >> PBBs; and polybrominated dephenyl ethers, or PBDEs) banned per
the
> >RoHS Directive.
> > >> And if Airbus succumbs, it says here it's only a matter of time
> > >> until
> >
> > >> Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman and the other primes
> >follow.
> > >>
> > >> ...For now, confusion reigns. Will it end before airplane parts
> > >> rain,
> >
> > >> too?"
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> So, it begs the question; COULD this have something to do with
> > >> lead-free avionics?
> > >>
> > >> Steve
> > >>
> > >> P.S. During my searches, I ran across this. If you're into
> > >> aviation, you'll like it.
> > >>
> > >> http://www.gillesvidal.com/blogpano/cockpit1.htm
> > >>
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