Bob, you may misunderstand my purpose. It's very interesting to discuss with 
you. But I respect your wish to stop the conversation, so I leave this 
topic. I wish you a Happy Weekend and hope to see you with new and fresh 
debating another day or week.
Inge


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robert Kondner" <[log in to unmask]>
To: "'TechNet E-Mail Forum'" <[log in to unmask]>; "'Inge'" 
<[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, May 15, 2009 6:41 PM
Subject: RE: [TN] Bare PCB Packaging Requirements


> Inge,
>
> You Wrote:
>  " You claim that a capacitor can't generate current."
>
> Why did you make up this statement about what I said?
>
>
> Insulators do not conduct or transport charge and charge transfer is
> required to damage a junction.
>
> So, how can a insulator touch a part and damage a junction? That is what I
> am asking.
>
>
> Don't bother with talks about clouds and charged caps being discharged 
> into
> junctions, these are all high current events.
>
> Stop making up stories about what I said.
>
> Bob Kondner
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Inge
> Sent: Friday, May 15, 2009 10:38 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Bare PCB Packaging Requirements
>
> OK Bob, let's see now. I've analyzed a number of semiconductors years 
> back,
> when the gate protection wasn't as good as today. We simulated ESD
> discharges for comparison and found likewise 10-50 nanometer holes and
> channels in the semi junctions. We used even FIB to be sure.  ESD damage 
> is
> caused by as small charges as what a 10 pF capacitor can generate. It's 
> the
> nanosecond rise time currents that kill the gates. A SLOW discharge does 
> not
>
> harm any semiconductor. You claim that a capacitor can't generate current.
> Do me a favor,  charge a power supply 100uF/400V cap and put left hand 
> index
>
> finger on plus and right hand ditto on minus and tell me that there was no
> current. And when the clouds above you send a flash from 3 kilometers 
> height
>
> down to ground (in reality the opposite direction) you mean there was no
> current. The scientists talk about Mega amperes. Again, your charged PE 
> bag
> is a very small capacitor. Everything in this world got a potential. If 
> two
> bodies, of any kind, near each other, and they have a potential 
> difference,
> the laws of nature orders an equalization. And that cannot take place
> without exchange of potential carriers, i.e. electrons.  Volt times 
> current
> is energy. A bang is caused by something moving the air violently = a 
> wave.
> Now, when you pulled off your 500 dollar golf club pullover and heard a
> 'sssprriitchhh' that was a wave caused by energy in some form. Could it be
> volt x ampere?  Or volts alone with no current? What do you say? Moreover,
> can a electrostatic field exist without a charge?
>
> Inge
>
> PS. It's interesting that Mr Volta 'invented' the Volt and Mr Ampere the
> current. How could Ampere find amperes without volts.....he-he
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Robert Kondner" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Friday, May 15, 2009 3:53 PM
> Subject: Re: [TN] Bare PCB Packaging Requirements
>
>
>> Inge,
>>
>>  I absolutely agree that you can generate a 10KV+ static field with a
>> simple piece of plastic.
>>
>>  If you are going to damage a semiconductor junction you need power, 
>> volts
>> x amps.
>>
>>  If you touch a piece of plastic that has a 10KV field because of
>> mechanical action do you get a spark? (ESD event.)
>>
>>  Try it, the answer is no. There is no current flow. Actually there are a
>> couple of electrons that will flow but the total charge is zero for
>> practical purpose.
>>
>>  The ESD meter you mention is telling you about electrostatic field. In
>> the
>> presences of charged conductive bodies (like people) this is a good
>> indication of a ESD possibility.
>>
>>  Volts along does nothing, you need current and volts to damage a
>> junction.
>>
>>  Why do so many people not believe in H Field like they believe in E
>> field?
>>
>> Bob Kondner
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Hernefjord Ingemar
>> Sent: Friday, May 15, 2009 3:18 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [TN] Bare PCB Packaging Requirements
>>
>> Dear Bob,
>> don't you need read a little about ESD basics? If you remove electrons
>> from
>> an insulator (plastic comb, acrylic clothings, cat etc) by rubbing it, 
>> the
>> loss of electrons will make the insulator positive. Or you may get a
>> charge
>> in the insulator by means of outer electric fields, that can move
>> electrons
>> in the insulator in a way that you get a potential difference. Pulling a
>> plastic comb through dry hair (if you get any)can charge your comb up to 
>> a
>> thousand volts. Pulling off your acrylic pullover can generate 10,000
>> Volts!
>> However, you are right in a way, the PE bag is not dangerous IF THE
>> SURROUNDING ALWAYS GOT THE SAME POTENTIAL. But that is seldom the case.
>> So,
>> do this for me. Get a PE bag, wave it in the air (won't work if you have 
>> a
>> high RH or ionizers)and keep it close to your ESD charge meter and see
>> what
>> happens. I'm afraid you will be bombarded with more about this topic.
>> Good Luck
>> Inge
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Robert Kondner
>> Sent: torsdag 14 maj 2009 22:58
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [TN] Bare PCB Packaging Requirements
>>
>> Richard,
>>
>> Your wrote:
>> "Non-ESD polyethylene bags are notorious ESD generators. I wouldn't want
>> them in my factory."
>>
>>
>>  You will NEVER get a ESD event from polyethylene because it is an
>> insulator, right?
>>
>>  However I see lots of ESD events with grounded metal objects. Since UL
>> requires metal machines to be grounded I guess you don't want any metal
>> machines in your factory?
>>
>> What is going on here?
>>
>> Bob Kondner
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Stadem, Richard D.
>> Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 3:12 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [TN] Bare PCB Packaging Requirements
>>
>> 1. The same moisture barrier bags that are ESD-safe Faraday bags also 
>> work
>> well as moisture barrier bags for shipping and storing PWBs. These 
>> Faraday
>> bags often work well for storage of the CCA during assembly. Why use two
>> different types of bags if one fits the bill? Non-ESD polyethylene bags
>> are
>> notorious ESD generators. I wouldn't want them in my factory.
>>
>> 2. Many CEMs and OEMs have requirements for the PWBs to be shipped in
>> MBBs,
>> in order to prevent against surface finish oxidation in the case of IAg,
>> ISn, HASL and FTL finishes. Some invoke a requirement such as IPC 4552 or
>> 4553 in order to ensure the boards are dry and hermetically sealed.
>>
>> 3. All PWBs absorb moisture from the air. Having the boards sealed
>> prevents
>> excess moisture ingress, in some cases if the boards are shipped in 
>> sealed
>> bags with desiccant, the user may not need to pre-bake if they are able 
>> to
>> successfully perform Kanban pull from the fabricator within a short time
>> frame. This, of course, requires qualification and validation of the
>> process
>> and procedures.
>>
>> So, if a bag is required, use one from start to finish that meets 
>> multiple
>> requirements.
>>
>> I assume you understand why moisture within the PWB is not a desirable
>> condition.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Parsons
>> Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 1:37 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: [TN] Bare PCB Packaging Requirements
>>
>> Tell us, how many CEM's out there are demanding that bare PCB's be
>> received
>> in vacuum sealed moisture barrier anti-static bags.  If so, what is your
>> reasoning?  Just to be clear my focus here is "anti-static" not the
>> moisture
>> barrier properties of the packaging.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards
>>
>>
>>
>> John Parsons
>>
>>
>>
>>
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