Werner,
I do not disagree. All that paper work spells out is you get
what you asked for and you can produce it in a consistent fashion. The PPAP
process has nothing to do with how well a product is designed or how
reliable it is, it's all about processes. How are you going to keep them in
control, what measures you have in place, where are the areas of most
concern during the manufacturing process .. The only reason I brought it up
was because it sounded like there was a misconception that the auto industry
could just fix a problem and all would be right with the world. That doesn't
mean that they shouldn't have performed better testing, taken design advice
from their suppliers, used past history on older designs, or what ever else
they may have to help them design a new product.
I have had a chance to work with both foreign and domestic auto makers and
there are some that will sit and listen while others do not care, even if
you can prove a cost savings or increased reliability. Also Werner is right
there are a lot of parts for foreign cars are designed and manufactured in
the United States.
Thank you,
Ted
_____
From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 1:06 PM
To: [log in to unmask]; [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Using CEM-1 in Pb-free Wave Solder?
All this paper work, PPAP, PSW, etc., still requires that somebody along
this chain actually knows what they are doing.
Werner
-----Original Message-----
From: Ted Tontis <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 1:14 pm
Subject: Re: [TN] Using CEM-1 in Pb-free Wave Solder?
Ken,
The PPAP process is not complete until the end use customer has
signed off on the PSW between them and the supplier.
Quick break down of what we put in a normal PPAP package. Amendments can be
made that are as simple as just submitting a warrant and drawings, customer
defined or a full blown PPAP as listed below.
1. Part submission warrant (between our customer and us, the supplier)
2. Drawings (Final assembly and final PCB assembly)
3. Dimensional results (numbered prints and dimensional results of bare
board and final assembly)
4. Process flow chart
5. Control plan
6. PFEMA
7. ICT Test fixture Validation
8. Functional Test Fixture Validation
9. SMT oven Profile
10. Placement capability study (critical components)
11. Supplier PPAP information
a. Part submission warrant for each component supplier
b. PPAP on solder paste (part submission warrant and chemical
analysis)
c. Board supplier PPAP Level III
Board supplier requirements
PFEMA
Control Plan
Process Flow Diagram
Warrant (Board house and board supplier)
Labeled Prints
Samples Inspection Report
Material Certification
Certificate of Conformance
Restricted and Reportable Chemical Form
Process Capability Study
Gage R & R Study
Copper Readings
Nickel/Gold Readings (if gold plating is used)
Lab and Test Results
Ionic Results
Labeled Samples
Signature on all Forms
12. Sample of finished product
13. Photos of finished assembly
Regards,
Ted T.
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> ] On Behalf
Of Ken Bloomquist
Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 10:30 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Using CEM-1 in Pb-free Wave Solder?
Thanks Steve, great information well presented.
So if I understand correctly Sergeant Friday the PPAP(process) is complete
after the PPAP(package) is submitted with the PSW which includes the AECQ.
Ya gotta love this business ;-)
KennyB
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Gregory [mailto:[log in to unmask]
<mailto:[log in to unmask]> ]
Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 7:58 AM
To: TechNet E-Mail Forum; Ken Bloomquist
Subject: RE: [TN] Using CEM-1 in Pb-free Wave Solder?
PPAP - Production Part Approval Process, is used in the automotive
supply chain to establish confidence in component suppliers and their
production processes, by demonstrating that:
"....all customer engineering design record and specification
requirements are properly understood by the supplier and that the
process has the potential to produce product consistently meeting these
requirements during an actual production run at the quoted production
rate."
PSW - Part Submission Warrant, The result of the PPAP process is a
series of documents gathered in one specific location (a binder or
electronically) called the "PPAP Package". The PPAP package is a series
of documents which need a formal approval by the supplier and customer.
The form that summarizes this package is called PSW (Part Submission
Warrant). The approval of the PSW indicates that the supplier
responsible person (usually the Quality Engineer) has reviewed this
package and that the customer has not identified any issues that would
prevent its approbation.
This is from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Production_Part_Approval_Process
AECQ100 - Automotive Electronic Committee, Automotive quality is
governed by a set of various standards. The most frequent and recognized
one is the series of documents published by the Automotive Electronic
Committee (AEC). One of these is the AEC-Q100 which describes the tests
and conditions electronic components have to satisfy before the
automotive qualification can be pronounced. Different grades are defined
depending mainly on the operational temperature conditions.
This is from:
http://www.atmel.com/dyn/resources/prod_documents/doc7760.pdf
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> ] On Behalf
Of Ken Bloomquist
Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 9:41 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Using CEM-1 in Pb-free Wave Solder?
Hi Ted,
I'm not in the automotive industry and I'm afraid some of your acronyms
have gone over my head, i.e. PPAP, AECQ, PSW, etc. They may not be
specific to the auto industry but I don't recognize them.
Could I get a short definition?
Thanks,
KennyB
-----Original Message-----
From: Ted Tontis [mailto:[log in to unmask]
<mailto:[log in to unmask]> ]
Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 6:50 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Using CEM-1 in Pb-free Wave Solder?
I work for a CM that has 75%-80% of the customer base as automotive. I
can tell you that the cost of changing a design is neither cheap nor
quick. 90% of the automotive assemblies we make are from customers that
assembly and sell the final product to the automotive industry. All
products must have a level 3 PPAP on the final assembly and a separate
level 3 on the bare boards. We have now reached a point that AECQ
information is required for all the components placed on the PCB and or
used on the final assembly to our end use customer. On average my full
level 3 PPAP's are 200+ pages and changes/amendments to the original
PPAP could be as short as a PSW or as large as 100+ pages. This doesn't
include what our customer or their final customer needs to do for their
final PPAP. So when something changes in the automotive industry it has
a ripple effect and everyone has to make changes or updates which
requires a lot of time and money.
I have been working with a customer that has had a design issue where
the terminal ends do not mate correctly. We notified them over a year
ago and provided supporting documentation from the supplier of the
terminal stating that it was incorrect, they are now just starting to do
something about it.
It's not as simple a changing or fixing the problem. It's like working
on a military project. One small fuse would require a pallet of paper
work and two years, minimal, for approval on changes and by that time
the product is no longer being produced.
Ted T.
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