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March 2009

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Subject:
From:
Ted Tontis <[log in to unmask]>
Reply To:
TechNet E-Mail Forum <[log in to unmask]>, Ted Tontis <[log in to unmask]>
Date:
Thu, 19 Mar 2009 08:49:59 -0500
Content-Type:
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text/plain (276 lines)
I work for a CM that has 75%-80% of the customer base as automotive. I can
tell you that the cost of changing a design is neither cheap nor quick. 90%
of the automotive assemblies we make are from customers that assembly and
sell the final product to the automotive industry. All products must have a
level 3 PPAP on the final assembly and a separate level 3 on the bare
boards. We have now reached a point that AECQ information is required for
all the components placed on the PCB and or used on the final assembly to
our end use customer. On average my full level 3 PPAP's are 200+ pages and
changes/amendments to the original PPAP could be as short as a PSW or as
large as 100+ pages. This doesn't include what our customer or their final
customer needs to do for their final PPAP. So when something changes in the
automotive industry it has a ripple effect and everyone has to make changes
or updates which requires a lot of time and money. 
I have been working with a customer that has had a design issue where the
terminal ends do not mate correctly. We notified them over a year ago and
provided supporting documentation from the supplier of the terminal stating
that it was incorrect, they are now just starting to do something about it.
It's not as simple a changing or fixing the problem. It's like working on a
military project. One small fuse would require a pallet of paper work and
two years, minimal, for approval on changes and by that time the product is
no longer being produced.

Ted T.

-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Chris Mahanna
Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 8:09 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Using CEM-1 in Pb-free Wave Solder?

Don't overlook the obvious-
It is amazing the risks that automotive will take to save a dime.  I suppose
they have to.  As I recall, the product was not changed to a double-sided
board until after the recall, obviously because it was cost prohibitive.
Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Werner Engelmaier /*
Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 8:34 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Using CEM-1 in Pb-free Wave Solder?

 Hi Lee,
The 4+ million recall was forced by NHTSA-what happened was that the
windshield wipers stopped working---sometimes in less than one year.
In terms of technical documentation; I use it as a case study in my 'Root
Cause Analysis' workshop.


 No preproduction certification that I know of; and if they did they
obviously did not know what they were doing---but that, of course, is not
unique to GM.

Werner




-----Original Message-----
From: Lee parker <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 8:21 pm
Subject: Re: [TN] Using CEM-1 in Pb-free Wave Solder?










Werner

Has this GM issue been documented anywhere.

Also, I am wondering why the laminate manufactures have not responded to
this
inquiry.

I have worked with many customers who have had CEM-1 boards built in Asia
and I
am not aware of any adverse effects although none were automotive.
Generally, we
were careful to be sure that the material was compatible with the specified
environment. Was any preproduction certification performed in the case you
mentioned below?

Best regards
Lee
JLP Consultants LLC
804 779 3389
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Werner Engelmaier /*<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
  To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
  Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 3:08 PM
  Subject: Re: [TN] Using CEM-1 in Pb-free Wave Solder?


  Hi Eric,
  IPC has quality Classes 1 through 3; CEM-1 with unsupported holes is Class
-1.
  This is the same material
/design combination that resulted in GM having to
recall over 4 million SUVs and trucks.
  CEM-1 not only has a high CTE, but also is hygroscopic and swells
significantly when absorbing moisture-bad combination for Pb-free T's and
automotive application.

  Werner







  -----Original Message-----
  From: Honsowetz, Eric <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
  To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
  Sent: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 2:59 pm
  Subject: [TN] Using CEM-1 in Pb-free Wave Solder?










  Good Afternoon Technetters;

  So having been googling through this question for a couple of days off
  an on I am turning to that one definite source of knowledge, you all...

  What are the ideas regarding using CEM-1 material in a Pb-free (SAC)
  wave soldering process for a high reliability product (Automotive - 15
  year life without failure).  This would be a copper on one side board
  with through-hole parts only.

  BTW googling provides the best of both worlds...people saying "yes" and
  others saying "no" so whatever your answer you can't be wrong. :)

  Best Regards,

  eric

  248-447-1038 (desk)
  734-223-5599 (cell)


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